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367 Comments
We went to see Wicked last night. A very enjoyable evening and a great musical. From where we sat it looked sold out.
When the Intrust Arena and Century II are both sold out next year the parking is gong to be a zoo. There is barely enough parking at Century II to handle Century II.
Still monitoring rant radio. My sacrifice. Letting ya know right wing opinion BEFORE it is made.
The big push right now? Sarah Palin’s book. Some con group has a heavy ad buy. They musta bought a lotta Sarah’s books too that they need to unload. Because if you act now you can get Sarah’s fun and activity book for the low low price of $4,97! Whether the crayons are included or not is unclear.
A classic moment –
http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=3847878&ref=fpblg
It’s pretty astounding in the book trade the Moose Dresser’s book is being remaindered before it’s released.
Fort Hood Tragedy — Barack Obama Gives Odd “Shout-Out” Before He Comments on Massacre — FOX News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0hiw8iXdMM
———–
Obama might as well as shouted “Allahu Akbar!” just like the gunman.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting
“donndublin” –
Keep working on that Nidal Malik Hasan is a Muslim tack.
It helps when we get back to declaring Scott Roeder is a “christian.”
BlueJay
Posted November 5, 2009 at 7:24 pm | Permalink
And I am ready to make a counter claim.
I would venture to guess that only maybe say 75% OF that crowd was there for the cause.
I know of one con(Don) and one weather vane(XXX) who attended. I know of at least 4 count ‘em FOUR libs that were there.
______________________________
Insult duely noted.
Ya know, BlueJay, XXX, Freebird, WSClark . . .
It’s possible to be insulted and not respond in kind.
If you all would stop with the nitpicking, you’d see you’re really on the same side.
And Jay, let that sink in a little before you let something fly.
Thank you.
It’s only an insult if you feel insulted.
The subject was the politics of people who attended the teabag. You said you went there as an independent interested in what tea parties are about and got on well with the people attending. IF you challenged those people on anything that might get you something other than a friendly reaction, you did not say so. That’s blowing with the wind right?
Boxlock said yesterday that “he didn’t want any help.”
Really.
So if he lived in Treece, he should just have to literally suck it up as in breath lead dust all day.
If his house is burning, he doesn’t want the fire dept to respond.
When he’s 67+, he doesn’t want to collect Social Security or avail himself of Medicare.
Note to Boxlock–you’re not living in a sod house and shooting your evening meal. This is modern civilization we’re talking about here.
Get real.
What you call blowing in the wind, I call listening to people who were there.
People can differ from your opinion and NOT be evil.
There is much good comment pulsing in these threads, humor too, but it always seems to be covered by a big scab that forms every morning. I like to see what other genuinley think, I enjoy disagreeing or agreeing, but at least people are thinking. It is a shame when slapdowns pass for wit and ignorance for loyalty, on either side.
Well I didn’t name you as blowing in the wind Capn. But if you see yourself in that charge there’s not much I can do about it.
The ordinary folks who turn out for the Tbag events have a right to be angry.
They can see their society going down the tubes–more work for less pay. Rich get massively richer by sucker punching the middle class.
They just don’t know who to be angry at.
You’re too brittle in your thinking, Jay.
Everyone who not only doesn’t totally agree with you but doesn’t agree with you to the same degree of passion as you is a “sell out.”
Political change can’t work that way.
The Chinese say, “when two people agree completely, the earth will transform to gold.”
*****
I gotta run. Back later.
Been thinking about the Fort Hood gunman and his motive. Evidently, he wasn’t afraid to die or he wouldn’t have did what he did on an Army Post full or people capable of shooting him dead.
If death wasn’t his fear for being deployed, what then was his motive?
“They just don’t know who to be angry at.”
Sure they do. Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin etc. tell them every day.
I allowed that a significant population of the teabaggers are dupes made to work against their own better interests. But ya can’t fix willfully stupid by listening with an understanding ear.
Unemployment at 10.2 percent
(CNN)
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 8:33 am | Permalink
What you call blowing in the wind, I call listening to people who were there.
People can differ from your opinion and NOT be evil.
_______________________________
Thanks for the backup Capn. As I had said before, I was there to listen and learn, not to pick a fight with Conservatives.
On this date, Nov 6th
Notable Quotes
A civilization which leaves so large a number of its participants unsatisfied and drives them into revolt neither has nor deserves the prospect of a lasting existence.
– Sigmund Freud
Odd Facts
The only 15 letter word that can be spelled without repeating a letter is “uncopyrightable”!
The Earth weighs around 6,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons (5,940 billion billion metric tons)!
In Natoma, Kansas, it’s illegal to throw knives at men wearing striped suits
Humorous Bits
Anything is possible, but nothing is easy.
Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.
People can differ from your opinion and NOT be evil.
Amen. Coming from Capn, that’s something of a revelation. Listen and learn, JR.
You learned that they are frightened and afraid of their own Government right? The Government that is supposed to be of by and for them, they consider the biggest threat to their lives? You knew that going in.
Did they learn anything from you? Being in the middle, did you let them know the other side is not in the best humor either?
GMC70
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:02 am | Permalink
People can differ from your opinion and NOT be evil.
Amen. Coming from Capn, that’s something of a revelation. Listen and learn, JR
Agreed,my apologies to the more civil posters last night for my rants.
Unemployment 10.2%? But, But, Axelrod said just last Sunday that wouldn’t happen!
How’s that stimulus package working now?
Islamic Jihadist kills 12.
How’s that Muslim ‘outreach’ working for Obama?
“Boxlock said yesterday that “he didn’t want any help.””–Capn
I must really be getting to ya there Capn to drag me over to this thread where I haven’t even posted on till now.
Where’s the link to that quote you attribute to me, lets see what the context was (?).
I can use all the help I can get, as long as it’s not forced on the back of someone else when I could do it myself.
There is a big difference between actually having to get help and being on the dole as a freeloader.
Way too many have developed an entitlement mentality in this country and feel someone else or the government owes it to them.
Bull Sh*t!
BlueJay
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:03 am | Permalink
You learned that they are frightened and afraid of their own Government right? The Government that is supposed to be of by and for them, they consider the biggest threat to their lives? You knew that going in.
Did they learn anything from you? Being in the middle, did you let them know the other side is not in the best humor either?
_____________________________________
Did they learn anything from me? I can always hope so. When men of good faith speak to eachother honestly, it’s difficult not to learn if you’re at all open-minded. As I said before, in each and every case I identified myself as a left of center Independent. Nobody treated me bad or pre-judged me.
You refer to these people as “dupes”. You think you’re smarter than them. If someone is to the right of your position, you automatically condemn them.
These are Americans just like you or me. Your constant insults and slams say a lot more against you than them.
‘Grist on the NYT’s “Baseless Hit Job on Al Gore”
Plus the story’s origin in a Fox News doctored video. ‘
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/environment/143773/grist_on_the_nyt%27s_%22baseless_hit_job_on_al_gore%22/
No Ft. Hood thread? Guess the WE Blog doens’t like to disclose the happenings in Obama;s America.
He cap’n, the shooter was shouting “Alah Akbar” sp? as he was shooting Americans. Sounds like he is right up your alley.
BTW, why is the press now reporting the scum was shouting “God is great” as opposed to the actual words the turd was using.
Even cap’n is proud to say “Alah akbar”. Why shouldnt the press report the truth?
minutelady
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:13 am | Permalink
Islamic Jihadist kills 12.
How’s that Muslim ‘outreach’ working for Obama?
_______________________________
Minutelady, have they for sure identified this nut as a terrorist? I haven’t gotten deeply into the news yet this am.
“Even cap’n is proud to say “Alah akbar”. Why shouldnt the press report the truth?”
____________________________
God is indeed great. What difference does it make what language you use to prase God?
God is indeed great. What difference does it make what language you use to prase God?
———————-
Well, shouting it as you are slaughtering people is probably not the best way to promote the phrase.
Way too many have developed an entitlement mentality in this country and feel someone else or the government owes it to them
—————————————-
There in one easy to understand sentence is exactly what is wrong with this country
BlueJay
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:03 am | Permalink
You learned that they are frightened and afraid of their own Government right?
________________________________
When people fear their own government, that’s tyranny.
“Your constant insults and slams say a lot more against you than them. ”
I’m fine with that as your opinion. You’re also valuable in answering which way the wind is blowing.
“So if he lived in Treece, he should just have to literally suck it up as in breath lead dust all day.” and
“If his house is burning, he doesn’t want the fire dept to respond.–Capn
No…I would have never found myself there in the first place or gotten out a long time ago, and on my own!
I pay taxes for fire protection, I’ve paid for that like others that pay those taxes.
And I have paid into Social Security and Medicare since the inception or my working life….those ‘benefits’ are EARNED, not given to me. And I would have done much much better, as I have, if I could have invested those funds myself and not had them taken by the government.
Regular
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:22 am | Permalink
God is indeed great. What difference does it make what language you use to prase God?
———————-
Well, shouting it as you are slaughtering people is probably not the best way to promote the phrase.
____________________________
Reg, I’ll agree that praising God while you slaughter people is bad form.
While I’ve got you on the forum, do you have any suggestions where I can go to upload some pics from the Tea Party?
House democrats to bring health care bill to a vote tomorrow.
How’s that Pelosi solemn promise to post bill 72 hrs before a vote working for you?
BlueJay
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:24 am | Permalink
“Your constant insults and slams say a lot more against you than them. ”
I’m fine with that as your opinion. You’re also valuable in answering which way the wind is blowing.
______________________________________
That from a self-confessed thief. Yeah, I value your opinion.
minutelady,
Pelosi is a liar, as well as many of the Dim’ocrats are.
They are out for themselves and their continued position of political power.
She is disgusting.
“When people fear their own government, that’s tyranny.”
I didn’t see any tanks rolling in to break up the tea party.
When people irrationally fear their own Government that is anarchy. They become a mob of dog eat dog individuals focused solely on their individual needs and prejudices easily led by anyone who says something they want to hear or offers them a bite to eat. That works well to the advantage of he who has the gold makes the rules.
Glad to hear it XXX. Now I can enjoy being disappointed by you. You have a pleasant day.
I didn’t see any tanks rolling in to break up the tea party.-BlueJay
==========================================
At that point…it’s too late.
While I’ve got you on the forum, do you have any suggestions where I can go to upload some pics from the Tea Party?
=======================
Imageshack
I’ll put some images link here that shows the process. The URL is in the first image or search google and type imageshack, choose the first link.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8357/imageshack1.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9030/imageshack2z.jpg
“WASHINGTON (AP) — His name appears on radical Internet postings. A fellow officer says he fought his deployment to Iraq and argued with soldiers who supported U.S. wars. He required counseling as a medical student because of problems with patients…..
At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.”
Now, just who were his “comrades”?
Just a Moslem wackjob.
When people have irrational fear of their govt., that’s insanity, one step removed from the Fort Hood shooter.
“Jobless rate tops 10 pct. for first time since ‘83″
Thank you Mr President
outlander
Posted November 5, 2009 at 10:03 pm | Permalink
Freebird: I took your recommendation and downloaded the God and Guns CD. Just finished listening. It is awesome. Southern Ways sound like the early stuff and it’s not even the best track. 5 stars!
____________________________________________
My 2 favorite tracks are “That Ain’t My America” and “Gifted Hands”, a tribute to their original keyboard player,if you know the history of the band the song has a lot of meaning.
Well no tanks in the streets.
But the American standard of living is on the slide. We’re told we have to be competitive with slave labor economies. The gap between the richest and the vast majority of people is wider than ever and still growing. People are dependent on employers not just for their livelihood but their health maintenance. Walmart.
It’s awfully late going the other way. I cast my lot with of, by and for.
Regular
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:38 am | Permalink
While I’ve got you on the forum, do you have any suggestions where I can go to upload some pics from the Tea Party?
=======================
Imageshack
I’ll put some images link here that shows the process. The URL is in the first image or search google and type imageshack, choose the first link.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8357/imageshack1.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9030/imageshack2z.jpg
________________________________
Thanks, Reg.
Obama’s Frightening Insensitivity Following Shooting
A bad week for Democrats compounded by an awful moment for Barack Obama.
“President Obama didn’t wait long after Tuesday’s devastating elections to give critics another reason to question his leadership, but this time the subject matter was more grim than a pair of governorships….
All the president’s men (and women) fell down on the job Thursday. And Democrats across the country have real reason to panic.”
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/politics/A-Disconnected-President.html
Wow, a good article making good points and asking good questions!
China Bans Beatings at Internet Camp
——————————–
Beatings for using the Internet – Perhaps a camp in Kansas…
Phantom
Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:42 am | Permalink
When people have irrational fear of their govt., that’s insanity, one step removed from the Fort Hood shooter.
______________________________
Phantom, who gets to make the call as to what constitutes “irrational”.
I bought into the media kool aide about Tea Parties. But then I went to see what it was really about.
News flash….the media is lying, at least about this.
Do what I did. Clear out the pre-concieved notions. Then go see for yourself.
Regular,
How do you cause the print to be ‘big’?
I use the word ‘big’ enclosed within the ‘less than’, ‘more than’ symbols and it shows up as ‘big’ as I am typing it but when I post the comment it does not show up as ‘big’.
BlueJay
Posted December 5, 2008 at 10:40 am | Permalink
Well we can settle your concerns “Donndublin”.
Care to meet? If not, quit following me around and pick a nic and stay there.
BlueJay
Posted November 5, 2009 at 7:28 pm | Permalink
“Next time you ask me to “meet up”…
Wouldn’t there have to be a first time before there could be a next time? You’re not my type.
————
Bj is caught in another lie. But wait, the first time he thought I was okobserver. He only has enough courage to “meet up” with grannies, and little girls.
Boxlock20
Posted November 6, 2009 at 10:00 am | Permalink
Regular,
How do you cause the print to be ‘big’?
I use the word ‘big’ enclosed within the ‘less than’, ‘more than’ symbols and it shows up as ‘big’ as I am typing it but when I post the comment it does not show up as ‘big’.
————————–
It’s Blockquote.
Used the same as bold or italics, but use “blockquote” at the beginning and end.
See the image for the code:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3213/blockquote.jpg
“Unemployment at 10.2 percent
(CNN)”-Regular
Quit talking down the economy man. What we got here is a jobless recovery where when Citi and Goldman Sachs are flush, we oughta be thankful.
Quit talking down the economy man. What we got here is a jobless recovery where when Citi and Goldman Sachs are flush, we oughta be thankful.
———————
There will a sacrifice of a ‘fatted calf’ later in the day.
“When people have irrational fear of their govt., that’s insanity, one step removed from the Fort Hood shooter.”-Phantom
Wow.
What exactly is a “rational fear” of government?
No fear of it?
Ohhhhmmmmm…
More science for the AGW science deniers to deny/ignore. . .
‘Past Climate Of Northern Antarctic Peninsular Informs Global Warming Debate‘
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091106095636.htm
“The seriousness of current global warming is underlined by a reconstruction of climate at Maxwell Bay in the South Shetland Islands of the Antarctic Peninsula over approximately the last 14,000 years, which appears to show that the current warming and widespread loss of glacial ice are unprecedented.
. . .
But the researchers find no evidence that the ice advanced in Maxwell Bay during the so-called Little Ice Age in the sixteenth to mid-nineteenth century.”
It is with a mixture of flattery and regret that I accept my continued role as your only reason for living donndublin.
Truly we are blessed to have you here when your physique and intellect easily avail you a fulfilling life as “lumber camp toy” or “the other woman”.
And then there’s this:
—
All of those twentysomethings who voted for Barack Obama last year are about to experience the change they haven’t been waiting for: the return of income tax bracket creep. Buried in Nancy Pelosi’s health-care bill is a provision that will partially repeal tax indexing for inflation, meaning that as their earnings rise over a lifetime these youngsters can look forward to paying higher rates even if their income gains aren’t real.
In order to raise enough money to make their plan look like it won’t add to the deficit, House Democrats have deliberately not indexed two main tax features of their plan: the $500,000 threshold for the 5.4-percentage-point income tax surcharge; and the payroll level at which small businesses must pay a new 8% tax penalty for not offering health insurance.
This is a sneaky way for politicians to pry more money out of workers every year without having to legislate tax increases. The negative effects of failing to index compound over time, yielding a revenue windfall for government as the years go on. The House tax surcharge is estimated to raise $460.5 billion over 10 years, but only $30.9 billion in 2011, rising to $68.4 billion in 2019, according to the Joint Tax Committee.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703932904574511794170939688.html
+++++
But – but – but — 95% of Americans were getting a tax cut! Right?! The One said so!!!!
Sorry scooter. He lied. Or, it’s just a semantic game.
See, it’s not a tax increase unless the administratino SAYS it’s a tax increase. No, this is just lets the results of the inflation previously stoked with the stimulus debt work to increase gov’t revenue (while simultaneously, of course, decreasing income for workers – and thus their personal freedoms). That lets inflation do the dirty work for the administration.
Isn’t doublespeak fun?
Indeed GMC,
And, that’s just the tip of the tax iceberg.
I’ll settle for lowest since 83, knowing that if they repubs had gotten in, it’d be lowest since the depression. Glass half full.
Thanks a bunch Regular!
Thanks!
New taxes -H.R. 3962, the “Affordable Health Care for America Act” has been introduced–all 1990 pages of it. This gargantuan beast contains thirteen new tax hikes. Here they all are, with description and page number (PDF version)
Listing:
Employer Mandate Excise Tax (Page 275): If an employer does not pay 72.5 percent of a single employee’s health premium (65 percent of a family employee), the employer must pay an excise tax equal to 8 percent of average wages. Small employers (measured by payroll size) have smaller payroll tax rates of 0 percent (<$500,000), 2 percent ($500,000-$585,000), 4 percent ($585,000-$670,000), and 6 percent ($670,000-$750,000).
Individual Mandate Surtax (Page 296): If an individual fails to obtain qualifying coverage, he must pay an income surtax equal to the lesser of 2.5 percent of modified adjusted gross income (MAGI) or the average premium. MAGI adds back in the foreign earned income exclusion and municipal bond interest.
Medicine Cabinet Tax (Page 324): Non-prescription medications would no longer be able to be purchased from health savings accounts (HSAs), flexible spending accounts (FSAs), or health reimbursement arrangements (HRAs). Insulin excepted.
Cap on FSAs (Page 325): FSAs would face an annual cap of $2500 (currently uncapped).
Increased Additional Tax on Non-Qualified HSA Distributions (Page 326): Non-qualified distributions from HSAs would face an additional tax of 20 percent (current law is 10 percent). This disadvantages HSAs relative to other tax-free accounts (e.g. IRAs, 401(k)s, 529 plans, etc.)
Denial of Tax Deduction for Employer Health Plans Coordinating with Medicare Part D (Page 327): This would further erode private sector participation in delivery of Medicare services.
Surtax on Individuals and Small Businesses (Page 336): Imposes an income surtax of 5.4 percent on MAGI over $500,000 ($1 million married filing jointly). MAGI adds back in the itemized deduction for margin loan interest. This would raise the top marginal tax rate in 2011 from 39.6 percent under current law to 45 percent—a new effective top rate.
Excise Tax on Medical Devices (Page 339): Imposes a new excise tax on medical device manufacturers equal to 2.5 percent of the wholesale price. It excludes retail sales and unspecified medical devices sold to the general public.
Corporate 1099-MISC Information Reporting (Page 344): Requires that 1099-MISC forms be issued to corporations as well as persons for trade or business payments. Current law limits to just persons for small business compliance complexity reasons. Also expands reporting to exchanges of property.
Delay in Worldwide Allocation of Interest (Page 345): Delays for nine years the worldwide allocation of interest, a corporate tax relief provision from the American Jobs Creation Act
Limitation on Tax Treaty Benefits for Certain Payments (Page 346): Increases taxes on U.S. employers with overseas operations looking to avoid double taxation of earnings.
Codification of the “Economic Substance Doctrine” (Page 349): Empowers the IRS to disallow a perfectly legal tax deduction or other tax relief merely because the IRS deems that the motive of the taxpayer was not primarily business-related.
Application of “More Likely Than Not” Rule (Page 357): Publicly-traded partnerships and corporations with annual gross receipts in excess of $100 million have raised standards on penalties. If there is a tax underpayment by these taxpayers, they must be able to prove that the estimated tax paid would have more likely than not been sufficient to cover final tax liability.
I think the impetus is for another shot in the arm type stimulus, extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. The firs stimulus was more directed at a longer horizon.
Good start on tax reform, doesn’t go far enough however.
•Phantom
Posted November 6, 2009 at 10:50 am | Permalink
Good start on tax reform, doesn’t go far enough however.
————
Okay, we’ll start with taking 80 percent of your income to pay taxes.
What exactly is a “rational fear” of government?
ALL gov’ts are to be feared at some point or some level, because all gov’ts, given the opportunity, trend toward tyrrany. That is why real limits on gov’t are so crucial. The founders understood this; that’s why the system the set up has so many checks in it.
“Gov’t is at best a necessary evil; at worst, an intolerable one.”
Thomas Paine’s words simply reflect a fact of human nature.
H.R. 3962, A bill to provide health care to 96% of Americans.
Right now, 12 million Americans don’t have health care that can’t get it.
96% leaves 12 million Americans still without health care.
WTF, over
Without that Stimulus being passed immediately, with No Time To Read The Bill, Obama said unemployment would rise above 8%.
Well now, WITH the Stimulus, Obama’s Unemployment rate has already risen to 10.2%, and climbing.
Jobs created by the Stimulus?
B U L L
S H I T
“Thomas Paine’s words simply reflect a fact of human nature.”
Simply beautiful in terms of both truth and simplicity.
Note:
1. The graph showing the current unemployment rate is HIGHER then Obama projected With or WITHOUT the Stimulus!
2. The downward spiral in employment.
http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/october-job-losses-accelerate-again-10-2/#comment-194570
10.2% October Unemployment Rate Jumps Upward ==> 10.2%! November 6, 2009
The economic for October predictions were 175,000 non-farm jobs lost, and an unemployment rate at or just below 10%. Just based on initial unemployment filings, I think you’d have had to count on people continuing to drop out of the system to get numbers that low.
So what actually happened? As of this morning, the Bureau of Labor Statistics tells us that we lost 190,000 non-farm jobs, and that the unemployment rate has risen to 10.2%. So let’s have a gander at where that puts us on the -
“OMG Christine Romer and Jared Bernstein Are The S u c k” chart:
i hear the Ft hood murderer is paralyzed–good hope he lives long enough and and in a great deal of pain to be executed. I have absolutely no sympathy for this animal.
One feeble minded poster would define “Fear of Government” as the time when tanks are rolling down your street.
That is the end point, not the beginning. We are somewhere in the middle.
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:08 am | Permalink
One feeble minded poster would define “Fear of Government” as the time when tanks are rolling down your street.
That is the end point, not the beginning. We are somewhere in the middle.
_____________________________________
Your rights under the Second Amendment help with this. We should not fear our government. They should have a healthy respect for us.
And our ability to enforce that respect.
Sadly I believe there are those on this blog who would actually like to see tanks rolling down our streets silencing all dissent.
Your rights under the Second Amendment help with this. We should not fear our government. They should have a healthy respect for us.
And our ability to enforce that respect.
-XXX
=====================================
Agreed 100%.
Our government should understand they work for us, we do not work for them.
When we become complacent, we become slaves.
ANTI
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:24 am | Permalink
When we become complacent, we become slaves.
__________________________
True Dat!
Another feeble minded poster questioned how ObamaCare takes away anyone’s Freedom.
It’s amazing to me the stupidity, and gullibility of those who believe that the more Free Stuff they get from Government, the better life will be. They fail to understand that in order for the Government to give away anything, it must take from others.
It’s this Taking From Others that is part and parcel of Taking Away Freedom. If you cannot be secure in your person, and your property, the fruits of your own labors, then you are NOT Free.
ObamaCare takes away Freedom by:
1. Mandating that we buy HealthCare.
2. Mandating that we buy HealthCare for others who do not pay for their HealthCare, thereby stealing property from those who pay, and transferring it to those who don’t pay.
3. Leading to the elimination of Private Insurance, taking away our Freedom of Choice.
4. Making us dependent upon Government and at their mercy for whatever Quality, and Timeliness, and Type of Healthcare we receive. You want quality? Only if the Gov’t chooses to provide it. You want to see a Doctor within a day or two? Only if the Gov’t chooses to provide it. A month or more? Could be. You want dialysis, cancer treatment? Gov’t will decide what you get, and you will have no choice to go elsewhere. (Oh, the very rich still will have special places where THEY can go, but you feeble-minded ones who hope Obama is there for you, oh you are in for a big surprise!)
5. Dictating price, and what fees are paid to Doctors, Hospitals, Drug Companies, and other Medical Services. Lowered fees paid will result in better service? Nope. The same service? Nope. Worse service? Yup.
1/3 of Doctors are over age 55. When faced with reduced wages, more work, and higher taxes, they will retire or reduce their work hours. Shortages of care will be at Epidemic levels. There are Doctor and Nurse shortages today. New Doctors are not being trained at a rate fast enough to keep up with those retiring. Cutting their pay, increasing their workload, and raising their taxes will only serve to accelerate this shortfall.
6. Violating the Constitutional boundaries which limit the power of Government. Gov’t mandating Healthcare is an act which voids the boundary of Constitutional limits for our Federal Government. Once that line controlling the power of Federal Government is gone, there is nothing which Government cannot do, if it so chooses to enact other mandates and take away even more Freedom.
You call ObamaCare Freedom? Only a fool would think so.
I’d worry alot more about the tyranny of big business. With Government you get a vote. Unfortunately, cons have learned that Government can be run and ruined by business. Time to get that working the other way. Get business out of Government and get Government into business!
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:15 am
Your rights under the Second Amendment help with this. We should not fear our government. They should have a healthy respect for us.
And our ability to enforce that respect.
——————–
XXX,
You actually believe that the government should have a “healthy respect” for the puny “arms” owned by citizens?
ANTARCTIC ICE SHEETS ARE GROWING
Die Welt am Sonntag, 6 March 2005
http://www.welt.de/data/2005/03/07/606129.html
[...] The West Antarctic peninsula only covers one tenth of the south pole’s ice. There
are rarely spectacular reports about the much larger parts of the continent. These do
not provide a uniform scientific picture. In total, however, the ice masses of the
continent, which hold about 70 per cent of the world’s fresh water resources, seem to be
growing. This conclusion was reported at the Earth Observation summit in Brussels in the
middle of February by Antarctic researcher Duncan Wingham (University College London).
————
Cosmao, Algore isn’t going to like you posting something about the “Global Warming Debate”. You and he both said it was over more than 10 years ago.
There was a time in this Country when some men decided that it would be easier to tolerate losing some freedoms to perhaps have a better life by siding with the King.
They were later hanged with ropes from their own barns, by the King’s men.
Freebird1971
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:20 am | Permalink
Sadly I believe there are those on this blog who would actually like to see tanks rolling down our streets silencing all dissent.
————————————————
When you have posters here advocating Government take over everything, even businesses beyond health care, I have to agree with you.
It’s scary, worse then my worse nightmare, that there are those who would welcome whatever action the Government chooses to take, to takeover all private business in this country.
More science for the AGW science deniers to deny/ignore. . .
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/11/open-thread-116-4/#comment-690948
However, whether Cryo Sat’s measurements will be able to clarify how the ice cover of
the Antarctic thick (which is up 4770 meters thick) will evolve in the future, remains
questionable. Systematic climate research has been going on for some 30 years on the
seventh continent – with contradictory findings: the climate of the Antarctic is complex.
A temperature rise over the western peninsula has coincided with a cooling of the south
part of the continent. And even in the west the ice cover has been growing. Standard
explanations claim that a slight warming will lead to intensified snow whenever it freezes.
A global temperature rise could possibly lead to the thickening of the Antarctic ice cover
altogether. In any case, the doomsday scenario of an Antarctic meltdown – and consequently
a rise in sea level of up to 60 meters – seems rather unrealistic.
http://ff.org/centers/csspp/library/co2weekly/2005-03-10/antartic.htm
Sadly I believe there are those on this blog who would actually like to see tanks rolling down our streets silencing all dissent.
Yup. They generally inhabit the political left.
—–
You actually believe that the government should have a “healthy respect” for the puny “arms” owned by citizens?
Cosmos, I’d suggest a brief study of history and non-linear, non-traditional warfare. You’d be surprised.
I deeply hope we never have to go there. The best guarantee of same, however, is to retain the >em>means to go there. I know some see that as counterintuitive, but that’s the way it is.
Cosmao only focuses on 10% of Anartica and ignors the other 90% which growing. Once again he covers his ears and sings la la la.
If WE Blog CONs had bothered to screen Michael Moore’s “Sicko,” they might have witnessed the scene when the expatriate American noted:
“In America people seem to be afraid of the government. In France the government is afraid of the people.”
I prefer the latter. Yeah, even with all you CONs arming up with your concealed handguns against the United States Army. Good luck with that strategy.
In France they rely on the ballot instead of the bullet. And the people win.
And the people win.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:36 am | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:15 am
Your rights under the Second Amendment help with this. We should not fear our government. They should have a healthy respect for us.
And our ability to enforce that respect.
——————–
XXX,
You actually believe that the government should have a “healthy respect” for the puny “arms” owned by citizens?
===============================================
How many insurgents are holding 68,000 US troops at bay in Afghanistan?
How many troops do you think it would take to control 100 million gun owners?
Say just 10 million gun owners choose to fight for their freedom, how many troops do you think it would take to control them?
I suppose some Radical Leftists here would welcome the Chinese troops, whom I am sure would be pleased to fight side-by-side with US troops, in putting down US Citizens who would choose to defend their Freedom.
Oh, and how many of those US Soldiers do you think would follow unlawful orders in killing US Citizens?
I suppose Cosmos, you could just bomb the citizens fighting for their Freedom, but how would tell which ones were fighting for their Freedom, from those who have surrendered to their own Government? Just bomb em all and let God sort them out?
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:36 am | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:15 am
Your rights under the Second Amendment help with this. We should not fear our government. They should have a healthy respect for us.
And our ability to enforce that respect.
——————–
XXX,
You actually believe that the government should have a “healthy respect” for the puny “arms” owned by citizens?
______________________________________
Cosmos, yes I do. You need look no further than Iraq or Afghanistan to see my point. A bunch of rag-tag natives have bogged down the world’s most powerful army. You think we’re not smart enough to do the same?
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
“XXX,
You actually believe that the government should have a “healthy respect” for the puny “arms” owned by citizens?”—the unthinking cosmos
Those “puny arms owned by citizens” are in the hands of brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, cousins, neighbors, friends, etc., so yes they are very afraid because they may have quite a time getting a military to fight against their own.
If WE Blog CONs had bothered to screen Michael Moore’s “Sicko,”
———————-
Sorry, most people don’t get their facts from movies or TV shows like the “Daily Show.”
What’s next? Climate facts from the Cartoon Channel?
In France they rely on the ballot instead of the bullet. And the people win.
==============================
Take away the ballot.
Now what?
“I suppose some Radical Leftists here would welcome the Chinese troops, whom I am sure would be pleased to fight side-by-side with US troops, in putting down US Citizens who would choose to defend their Freedom.”
————–
Why do yo think we call him cosMao?
•ANTI
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:49 am | Permalink
In France they rely on the ballot instead of the bullet. And the people win.
==============================
Take away the ballot.
Now what?
———————-
The French will no doubt give the double over head salute like they did to the Germans.
ANTI
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:49 am | Permalink
In France they rely on the ballot instead of the bullet. And the people win.
==============================
Take away the ballot.
Now what?
========================================
Or stuff the ballot box – Acorn style.
“XXX” brags –
“I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house.”
Uh-huh.
Nothing crazy about that.
donndublin
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:51 am | Permalink
“I suppose some Radical Leftists here would welcome the Chinese troops, whom I am sure would be pleased to fight side-by-side with US troops, in putting down US Citizens who would choose to defend their Freedom.”
————–
Why do yo think we call him cosMao?
=============================
Good point. It wouldn’t be fair to hold China to the same CO2 limits as the US, if you are a Commie supporter.
Boxlock20
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:49 am | Permalink
“XXX,
You actually believe that the government should have a “healthy respect” for the puny “arms” owned by citizens?”—the unthinking cosmos
Those are in the hands of brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, cousins, neighbors, friends, etc., so yes they are very afraid because they may have quite a time getting a military to fight against their own.
__________________________________
“puny arms owned by citizens”?
I can muster far more firepower now than when I was a combat Marine.
“I’d worry alot more about the tyranny of big business. With Government you get a vote. “—Junior
You get a stronger vote with business, you vote by doing business with them or not. The government doesn’t give that choice.
I would think that a camander given a command to shoot his own citizens would take out his side arm and shoot the one who gave him the order.
Give me 24 hours in a machine shop and I’ll show you some REAL firepower.
Monkeyhawk
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:53 am | Permalink
“XXX” brags –
“I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house.”
Uh-huh.
Nothing crazy about that.
============================
Some Lib here did say that guns are tools just like rakes.
Everyone has at least one rake in their shed.
It’s amazing what one can destroy using a rake, a spade, a hoe, axe, or sledge hammer, or a car or a truck, gasoline, etc….
Field expedient weapons are very lethal
commander=camander
XXX,
You do realize I was quoting cosmos don’t you. I don’t think our arms are “puny”, though they are at a significantly inferior position when going against an organized army.
My point is how many government solders would fire on the general populous of this country. Some yes, many NO.
Nothing crazy about that.
Nope, MH, just a statement of fact. So could you, with a bit of knowledge. I have no doubt whatsoever that XXX, like me, has no desire whatsoever to EVER have to resort to same. Doing so would be the VERY LAST resort, after all other means of social change have been elimiinated and there is no other option.
I don’t think we’re near there. I pray we never will be. But I have no illusions that it can’t happen. And am convinced the best way to prevent same is to ensure the ability to do so.
Many on your side of the aisle (as well as some on the Repub. side, too, unfortunately), including the president, would quickly deprive Americans of that ability, given the opportunity to do so. I continue to oppose all efforts to do so.
As any rational person would.
Monkeyhawk
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:53 am | Permalink
“XXX” brags –
“I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house.”
Uh-huh.
Nothing crazy about that.
__________________________________
Monk, does it ever bother you when you hear that loud WHOOOSH right over your head?
You’re obviously not one to worry about context or point.
Don’t worry, people like me will defend stupid puzzies like you when the time comes.
So now are you happy, monkeyschitt? You picked a fight with someone you didn’t need to.
Nothing stupid about that.
“I would think that a camander given a command to shoot his own citizens would take out his side arm and shoot the one who gave him the order.”—donndublin
Thank you donndublin….that is my hope too.
XXX, Did you get those pictures posted yet. I think I might have seen you the other day.
We may not agree all the time, but the more I learn about you the more I agree.
Boxlock20
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:01 pm | Permalink
XXX,
You do realize I was quoting cosmos don’t you.
________________________
Yeah, I just grabbed your post because it was closer.
donndublin
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:57 am | Permalink
I would think that a camander given a command to shoot his own citizens would take out his side arm and shoot the one who gave him the order.
______________________________
Two words:
Kent State
XXX, no problem.
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:46 am
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
——————-
Are you going to blow up the places that those “lot of people” live and/or work in? Blow up our US military bases?
Cosmos, we are far from that point today.
Just knowing the people have the capability to defend themselves, hopefully keeps us from ever getting to that point.
3% of the colonists defeated the “Greatest Empire In the History of The World”. Those few folks, determined to live free, shoved the crown up their arses.
“Puny” weapons in the hands of a determined people are pretty significant.
“I’d worry alot more about the tyranny of big business. With Government you get a vote. “— BJ
Man, you just don’t get it. The government IS the BIG BUSINESS and vice-versa.
We live in a oligarchic, technocratic fascism. Yes ALL three. And you’re Obaaama is not “one of us”.
donndublin
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:03 pm | Permalink
XXX, Did you get those pictures posted yet. I think I might have seen you the other day.
We may not agree all the time, but the more I learn about you the more I agree.
_________________________________
Well thank you, Don. I appreciate that. You’ve managed to catch me at a time when I’m rethinking direction and allies.
Haven’t got the pics uploaded yet. Regular steered me to a place to upload. I’m going to try it tomorrow. I’ll get back with a link.
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:09 pm | Permalink
Cosmos, we are far from that point today.
Just knowing the people have the capability to defend themselves, hopefully keeps us from ever getting to that point.
I believe that there are plenty of former military and just plain folks who love this country enough that will see to it that it never gets to that point
XXX, I lot of water has passed under the bridge since Kent State. The protesters were mostly young college students. As you saw the other day, it’s not so much now.
“Are you going to blow up the places that those “lot of people” live and/or work in? Blow up our US military bases?”–cosmos
Wow, that statement highlights the difference between a ‘weeny-lefty’, and ‘normal people’.
Just because one can does NOT mean they want too or will.
Frankly I am comforted by the knowledge that there are lots of folks in this world that are capable if necessary and not ‘weenies’.
So the troops wouldn’t fire on old farts whose lives are mostly over, but only on young people? Don’t count on it.
What? Obama is NOT the savior of us all?
Then there is no Hope! No Change!
More of the same.
(Yet the feeble minded think The One is fighting for them!)
XXX,
There ar a lot of things we don’t see eye to eye on but the more I read from you the more I believe we both want the same things for this country but may have different opinions on how to get those goals. Weathervane,nah, some one who is intelligent enough to see that there is more than one way to accomplish something,yes.
donndublin
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:12 pm | Permalink
XXX, I lot of water has passed under the bridge since Kent State. The protesters were mostly young college students. As you saw the other day, it’s not so much now.
===============================
No draft, yet.
“You get a stronger vote with business”
You do? Tell that to any worker in a “right to work” state like Kansas. You used to check your freedom when you punched the clock. NOW they want you on a leash (cell phone) so you’re never loose.
Go listen to a bunch of Walmart workers made on pain of termination to sing the Walmart loyalty song and tell us how free this country is.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:46 am
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
——————-
Are you going to blow up the places that those “lot of people” live and/or work in? Blow up our US military bases?
_________________________________
Cos, like most people, I have a choice to make. I choose not to hurt anybody. That doesn’t mean I can’t…just that I choose not to.
Faith & Values
Too bad it’s not a Have to Work state.
Well thank you, Don. I appreciate that. You’ve managed to catch me at a time when I’m rethinking direction and allies. -XXX
I was on the other side once too during the Kent State fiaco. I got deeply involved and saw that the left is really the idealogy of the super rich elitists using the common man as pawns. I may lean rright for the time being but I consider myself more in the middle than anything else.
Uncool (regardless of whether or not you own some):
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html
donndublin
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:12 pm | Permalink
XXX, I lot of water has passed under the bridge since Kent State. The protesters were mostly young college students. As you saw the other day, it’s not so much now.
_____________________________
I NEVER thought I’d see the day that American soldiers would fire on American civilians, yet it DID happen.
I’d think it more likely now than then.
Just my opinion.
So people are ready to fight the military if need be, composed of their sons,daughters and neighbors sons and daughters, but think those same people wouldn’t fight them.
Once you turn on the govt., you’re branded a traitor, and insurectionist, and the establishment will treat you as such. Ask Timothy McVeigh.
–bouncy ball–
boing boing boing
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:20 pm | Permalink
Too bad it’s not a Have to Work state
For anyone with any sense of self esteem and pride it is.
So the troops wouldn’t fire on old farts whose lives are mostly over, but only on young people? Don’t count on it.
————
I wouldn’t say that most of those Tea partiers “lives are mostly over”. The average age was about 50. A lot of them were verterns who know how and will shoot back.
donndublin posted November 6, 2009 at 11:44 am
Cosmao only focuses on 10% of Anartica and ignors the other 90% which growing. Once again he covers his ears and sings la la la.
——————————–
donndublin,
If you were not so [long insulting list omitted] you would know that what is currently happening in mainland Antarctica was predicted years ago by the first climate models.
Antarctica is surrounded by a deep ocean — water warms slower than land. Most land is in the Northern hemisphere.
Antarctica is isolated by circumpolar wind patterns.
AGW is increasing moisture levels, which can increase snowfall.
The Antarctic Peninsula is in a different climate situation than the mainland.
Phantom
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:23 pm | Permalink
Once you turn on the govt., you’re branded a traitor, and insurectionist, and the establishment will treat you as such. Ask Timothy McVeigh.
—————————————————
Agreed,but seems that more and more people feel like the government is turning on them.
Phantom
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:23 pm | Permalink
Once you turn on the govt., you’re branded a traitor, and insurectionist, and the establishment will treat you as such. Ask Timothy McVeigh.
================================================
So you believe opposinig Government is never the right thing to do?
GMC as someone who has studied Non Linear Warfare, that’s partly How the US got Independence, and Ireland, and why we lost in Vietnam. Heck 9/11 was a non Linear warfare attack..
The Problem is I might able to form a small cell maybe 10 people and I could cause a lot of chaos assassinate low lv government officials, Mayors, councilpersons, attorneys etc. you might be able to do a Mcveigh type attack, or a Una bomber campaign or ambush LEO’ either like the recent Sedgwick county incident or with IED’s. Yes I could cause a alot of Chaos but I would fail. One, the people will never side with you if you engage in what most would consider terrorist attacks look what happened to McVeigh the images of Dead Babies being pulled out of the rubble probably being the most compelling, even people who agreed with him ideologically rejected his tactics, and the second you kill a LEO, one but has to look at the recent death of Deputy Etheridge or that Sheriff Samuels to see the Negative outcome.
Besides the negative Press and unsympathetic public, the government has mechanisms for replacing losses your group most likely wont, people will be hesitant about killing, some will get killed some will get caught and once they Authorities put pressure on you you’ll have turncoats infiltrators and spend more time running and hiding that In partaking in revolution, Che Guerva in Boliva or the Weathermen in the US are examples of that.
In the end Non linear warfare almost always is only successful in repelling an invader not in actually overthrowing a government, the IRA might have gained Irish Independance but havent defeated the crown.
In the end Non linear warfare almost always is only successful in repelling an invader not in actually overthrowing a government, the IRA might have gained Irish Independance but havent defeated the crown.
==-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Thanks for the reality check, TomPaine.
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:46 am
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
——————-
Would your home-made bomb be part of “your rights under the “Second Amendment”?
TomPaine, nobody here is advocating the overthrow of the government. The scenario is, if the government turned on us.
The question is, at what point would you stand up to the government?
When they started confiscating guns?
When they start imprisoning people because of their ideology?
There’s got to be a breaking point.
I obey the law.
But I will not grovel before an out of control government.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:46 am
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
——————-
Would your home-made bomb be part of “your rights under the “Second Amendment”?
__________________________________
No, it would be my response to a government gone mad. Don’t try to paint me as a terrorist, Cos.
JimJohnson posted November 6, 2009 at 12:29 pm
So you believe opposinig Government is never the right thing to do?
—————
Citizens can oppose Government with non-violent means — contact your representatives, fund campaigns and groups that you support, run for office yourself, etc.
We’re all arguing whether or not “our” military would fire against us.
Well, it’s not “our” military anymore, the bankers lay claim to it.
When they’re enlisting illegals and felons, where there are Bloods and Crips and MS13 in the ranks…we matter little.
Just like most of the police, these days. I’ve friends that are quitting and those that are quitting, saw those older vets in the force retire early because they all see the writing on the wall!
The most unstable and violent are the ones staying in the police, all dressed up like Darth Vader, waiting to be worshipped…BY YOU. The normal “good guys” are bugging out. We’ve forced these guys into combat situations for 8 years and then offer ‘em jobs as police, doing the same things that they’ve been doing “over there” (but with “less lethal” weapons that they are more than trigger happy to use)…you’re acclimating them to be used to shooting civs like all of us.
It ain’t hard.
http://www.progressive.org/wx081209b.html
This was in the works loong before Obaama came in.
Problem- Bush screws everything up (as the bumbling fool) and lays the groundwork for Draconian Unconstitutional (color of) laws ie; USAPatriot Act and the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act to name a few.
Reaction- We The People are fed up of the bumbling fool and his Darth Cheney team of devils trampling of civil rights. We all gleefully vote for “Change”.
Solution- “Change” is voted in by way of complete single party control, gladly voted in by The People. But the change isn’t what is promised. The change is sold as security and equality. But there is no evidence of that being the case. The baton was passed to the man who will take us to the finished line.
“So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause.” ?Padmé Amidala
A former employee of a business located in a downtown Orlando building where a deadly mass shooting took place today is suspected in the attack.
Two people are dead and at least 17 were shot in the incident, which took place about noon today at Legions Place, an office building near Interstate 4 and Ivanhoe Boulevard.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/os-shooting-reported-downtown-orlando-20091106,0,2642883.story
______________________
WTF?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/us/15immig.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24243460/
We’ll see if this gets posted a dozen times…
A question for JimJohnson, Boxlock20, donndublin, XXX, ANTI, Regular, GMC70, and Pleefer….
Was Timothy McVeigh a patriot?
It’s obvious that McVeigh thought of himself as a patriot striking back at a tyrannical federal government that wanted to over tax him and take away his 2nd amendment rights.
What do you think, was he a patriot?
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm
No, it would be my response to a government gone mad. Don’t try to paint me as a terrorist, Cos.
——————-
XXX,
Don’t blame me for your expanding what you originally posted.
——————-
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:15 am
Your rights under the Second Amendment help with this. We should not fear our government. They should have a healthy respect for us.
And our ability to enforce that respect.
——————–
You’re the one who later suggested that the “Second Amendment” is insufficient. . . which supports my earlier “puny” point.
Hey call me whatever names you want but I think abandoning democracy and stocking up on weapons isn’t the brightest way to go.
The Heller decision didn’t give the most paranoid everything they wanted–how could it?–but we still have laws and institutions in place. The notion that government would start confiscating guns is right up there with the idea of an American Civil War in 2006. Utterly ludicrous.
But to the extent that is possible, it will not be due to government ignoring the will of the people, but a docile public cheering it on, as they have repeatedly cheered on the attacks of freedoms of people who aren’t them (and this, curiously enough, includes some of the biggest Second Amendment fans).
But principles ignored have a funny way of turning on the people who ignore them.
And I remain amazed at these people who obssess over firearms.If government was going to send troops to take over the citizens, that would have already happened under Bush. And the simple fact is that, in sufficient numbers, you can scare Washington politicians simply by threatening their gravy trains, and actually unraveling the power structure by exposing it to the masses.
But that takes work.
And using implied threats of physical harm to get what you want is called something, but it’s not democracy.
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Permalink
A question for JimJohnson, Boxlock20, donndublin, XXX, ANTI, Regular, GMC70, and Pleefer….
Was Timothy McVeigh a patriot?
__________________________________
No.
Daniel, do you really think that anybody you listed is going to answer yes?
We’re good Americans just like you.
“Man, you just don’t get it. The government IS the BIG BUSINESS and vice-versa.
Thanks to the “free” market and deliberate Republican efforts to privatize everything out to it. It was not always so. It’s YOU who doesn’t get it. You get whipped into believing that your Government is your enemy and you turn everything including your liberties over to whoever has the money to pay for it. It’s supposed to be of by and for the people. That’s you and me. Business wants you and I to be enemies at each other’s throats for whatever crumbs they want to toss us.
I got a book for you Pleef. “The Wrecking Crew How Conservatives Rule”. It details how Government used to be the servant and protector of the people until the cons outsourced it for fun and profit.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:01 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm
You’re the one who later suggested that the “Second Amendment” is insufficient. . . which supports my earlier “puny” point.
__________________________
And you’re prepared to show me where I said that?
XXX, are any of the lists in your scenario even remotely close to fruition?
“And I remain amazed at these people who obssess over firearms.If government was going to send troops to take over the citizens, that would have already happened under Bush….“-Rage
Not necessarily, the “left” would have been fighting just as hard as the “right” are today. Now that Obama has left cover and the right are still hell-bent to fight the continuous “war on terra” and “Islamo-fascists” is is a win-win for Obama and he is, make no mistake, just carrying the baton that was handed to him.
Obama is caressing your head while he is holding it underwater. Like that momma down in Texas to her kids.
LOL!
Been to France lately?
HEHEHEHE
It’s a third world country being taken over by the Muslims!
LOL!!
And the French government is powerless to stop it!
The good news is they no longer need street lights. The cars burning from marauding Muslim teenagers provide plenty of light these days.
You can always rely on Monkeyhawk for a little humor in the afternoons!
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Permalink
A question for JimJohnson, Boxlock20, donndublin, XXX, ANTI, Regular, GMC70, and Pleefer….
Was Timothy McVeigh a patriot?
__________________________________
He11 no, McVeigh was not a patriot.
I believe this discussion evolved from:
1. Legitimacy of the Tea Protestors
2. Value of the 2nd Amendment in defending Freedom from an OPPRESSIVE Government
3. Overthrow of Government for ANY reason
The scenario brought up in defense of the 2nd Amendment was Item #2. And yes, the 2nd Amendment is what hopefully deters any Government from becoming Oppressive and taking away our Freedom. To minimalize small arms as being an ineffective deterrent, is to ignore history, and to ignore present day events in Afghanistan.
The value of the 2nd Amendment it seems is being questioned by those using Item #3, either as an intentional distortion or distortion caused by ignorance. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume it was the latter, and not the former.
Hey call me whatever names you want but I think abandoning democracy and stocking up on weapons isn’t the brightest way to go.
-Rage
====================
Duh.
Generalby Capitol Confidential
In a fast-breaking development comes word that agents of the Attorney’s General office in Louisiana have raided ACORN’s offices in New Orleans. ACORN’s New Orleans was, for decades, the headquarters of the national community organizing association. News of the raid comes from Marcel Reid and her colleagues at ACORN 8, an association of former ACORN leaders and board members. Many of the individuals involved with ACORN 8 were fired from ACORN for demanding a forensic audit following an embezzlement scandal involving Dale Rathke, brother of ACORN co-founder Wade Rathke.
TomPaine
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:11 pm | Permalink
XXX, are any of the lists in your scenario even remotely close to fruition?
_______________________________
TomPaine, I never said they were. And as I said upthread, nobody is advocating the overthrow of the government.
This is just a discussion topic, not a call to arms.
Tom –
Patriots don’t have to “win,” just be able to inflict enough damage to make the repression too costly. The ultimate goal, of course, is to not have to engage in the action at all. That means gov’t must always remember that citizens, if need by, can inflict massive losses on gov’t. Free citizens retain their arms.
As I said, we’re not there, and I hope desperately we never get there. But the best way to get there is to disarm citizens.
Never forget: anyone who forces you to disarm is not your friend.
The notion that government would start confiscating guns is right up there with the idea of an American Civil War in 2006. Utterly ludicrous.
Yet there are some, Rage, mostly among the Democratic party, who would willingly do same. Tomorrow. Including the President. If they thought they had the votes.
The beauty of the Bill of Rights – including the 2nd amendment – is that there are some things not subject to vote. Too many, mostly on the left, have forgotten that.
Mulon Labe (apologies for the mangling of the Greek).
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 1:07 pm
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:01 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm
You’re the one who later suggested that the “Second Amendment” is insufficient. . . which supports my earlier “puny” point.
__________________________
And you’re prepared to show me where I said that?
—————————————–
Are you now arguing that the “Second Amendment” by itself is sufficient? You would not need weapons not allowed by it?
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:21 pm | Permalink
He11 no, McVeigh was not a patriot.
I believe this discussion evolved from:
1. Legitimacy of the Tea Protestors
2. Value of the 2nd Amendment in defending Freedom from an OPPRESSIVE Government
3. Overthrow of Government for ANY reason
The scenario brought up in defense of the 2nd Amendment was Item #2. And yes, the 2nd Amendment is what hopefully deters any Government from becoming Oppressive and taking away our Freedom. To minimalize small arms as being an ineffective deterrent, is to ignore history, and to ignore present day events in Afghanistan.
The value of the 2nd Amendment it seems is being questioned by those using Item #3, either as an intentional distortion or distortion caused by ignorance. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume it was the latter, and not the former.
_____________________________
JJ nails it.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:26 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 1:07 pm
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:01 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm
You’re the one who later suggested that the “Second Amendment” is insufficient. . . which supports my earlier “puny” point.
__________________________
And you’re prepared to show me where I said that?
—————————————–
Are you now arguing that the “Second Amendment” by itself is sufficient? You would not need weapons not allowed by it?
_____________________________________________
Ok, Cos, this isn’t a discussion, it’s an attack. If you’re going to try to put words in my mouth, we have nothing to discuss.
Guns.
We don’t live in Afghanistan. And it’s not the 19th century either.
You have to PAY the telephone company to have an unlisted number. I hear there’s even a new company printing a directory including unlisted numbers and you have to pay THEM to keep them from publishing your unlisted number. Companies buy and sell your information, bother you with sales calls you don’t want.
Your doctor may as well be an employee for the pharmaceutical industry.
Microsoft, the winner of the “free” market holds the lions share of the operating system market for your computer. They’re forever updating their glitchy creations with another one you have to buy a license for. They crushed all the competition save the user generated and not for profit (and BETTER) Linux systems.
We even pay private security firms to protect our military!
I could go on.
Guns are next to useless in the information age. Private interests can control your access to communication and information. We’ve even given them life and death decision over us in our health care. In the digital age, they can even rewrite your character or make you cease to exist. You’re more in peril from the CEO with a gleam in his eye than the soldier told to fire on his own people. The soldier would surely hesitate.
The CEO won’t.
Cosmo, please list the weapons that the Second Amendment doesn’t allow.
Or name just one weapon that the Second Amendment doesn’t allow.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:26 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 1:07 pm
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:01 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm
You’re the one who later suggested that the “Second Amendment” is insufficient. . . which supports my earlier “puny” point.
__________________________
And you’re prepared to show me where I said that?
—————————————–
Are you now arguing that the “Second Amendment” by itself is sufficient? You would not need weapons not allowed by it?
=================================
Cosmos twists things, for his own purpose.
First he wants XXX to claim the 2nd Amendment is not effective, then XXX wants XXX to claim the 2nd Amendment is all that is needed.
Cosmos warped efforts at discrediting XXX and/or the 2nd Amendment are failing miserably.
Fixin the typo:
Cosmos twists things, for his own purpose.
First he wants XXX to claim the 2nd Amendment is not effective, then Cosmos wants XXX to claim the 2nd Amendment is all that is needed.
Cosmos warped efforts at discrediting XXX and/or the 2nd Amendment are failing miserably.
XXX,
Where did I attack you?
You brought up the “Second Amendment” re what the government should “fear”.
Then you later boasted that you could build a home-made weapon that would “level a city block”.
cosmos_originally,
Why are you a homosexual extremist who wishes us all to wear hemp clothing and use sycamore leaves as shoes?
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:41 pm | Permalink
XXX,
Where did I attack you?
_________________________________
Cos, you’ve tried to credit me with a lot of things I never said.
“Then you later boasted that you could build a home-made weapon that would “level a city block”.
_________________________________
Now see, Cos, that’s how schitt gets stirred up. If you want to be completely accurate, I wasn’t boasting, and I never said anything about a home-made weapon. For all you know, I could have been talking about a sledge hammer.
I get the impression you’re trying to set me up for something. And you keep hitting me with strawman arguments.
Seems to me like you’re spoiling for a fight where you don’t need one.
Big Business
MoveOn Threatens to Push Primary Opponents to Dems Voting Against Health Plan
Moveon.org has reportedly raised $3,578,117 in contributions to fund primary challenges against ‘any Democratic senator who blocks an up-or-down vote on health care reform with a public option,’ according to an e-mail sent to group members on Thursday.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/06/liberal-activist-groups-threatens-democrats-opposed-government-run-option/
Buyin’ the votes.
“A civil war is threatening to erupt within the Democratic Party as liberal advocacy group MoveOn.org looks to punish moderate Democrats opposed to the sweeping health care overhaul proposed by party leaders.”
The party of Tolerance.
The government used to bow to the will of the people,seems like in the last decade or so it seems like the government wants people to bow to their will.
•Freebird1971
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:55 pm | Permalink
The government used to bow to the will of the people,seems like in the last decade or so it seems like the government wants people to bow to their will.
========================
Pretty much.
XXX,
Okay, your “response to a government gone mad” would be to “level a city block” with a “sledge hammer”.
Whatever. . .
XXX
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm | Permalink
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:46 am
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
——————-
Would your home-made bomb be part of “your rights under the “Second Amendment”?
__________________________________
No, it would be my response to a government gone mad. Don’t try to paint me as a terrorist, Cos.
#
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:21 pm | Permalink
The scenario brought up in defense of the 2nd Amendment was Item #2. And yes, the 2nd Amendment is what hopefully deters any Government from becoming Oppressive and taking away our Freedom. To minimalize small arms as being an ineffective deterrent, is to ignore history, and to ignore present day events in Afghanistan.
The value of the 2nd Amendment it seems is being questioned by those using Item #3, either as an intentional distortion or distortion caused by ignorance. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume it was the latter, and not the former.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
First of all, I consider myself to be as strong a proponent of the 2nd amendment as any of you. I just think you’re deluding yourself if you believe that small arms or fertilizer bombs are going to have any effect against an ‘Oppressive’ government.
Current events in Afghanistan really aren’t germane to the discussion, as TomPaine pointed out, because homegrown insurgencies are most effective against foreign invaders rather than domestic governments. The people are much more likely to forgive some innocents dying from car bombs if it’s the price they have to pay to drive out a foreign invader (Iraq and Afghanistan) than they will to overthrow a domestic government (Tim McVeigh).
Tim McVeigh and his little group of like-minded individuals obviously considered themselves to be patriots fighting an oppressive federal government. They just had a lower threshold for what they considered ‘oppression’ to be than most folk. What’s your tipping point?
The really sad thing is there are those who will bow down to the government as long as they keep being promised something for nothing. I am not under the illusion that the government actually has my best interests at heart.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:04 pm | Permalink
XXX,
Okay, your “response to a government gone mad” would be to “level a city block” with a “sledge hammer”.
_________________________________
Again, I never said that.
Another strawman argument.
You’re getting shrill.
Next.
#
XXX
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:03 pm | Permalink
We’re good Americans just like you.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I don’t doubt that for one second. However, when words like ‘tyranny’ and ‘oppression’ are thrown around when they’re really not warranted, those words cease to have any true meaning. Critical thinking goes out the window and the McVeighs, Nicholls, Rudolphs, and Von Brunns of the world are able to convince themselves that their slaughter is justifiable.
Oh dear how we long for the good old days…
When WERE the good old days, exactly??
Oh dear how we long for the good old days…
When WERE the good old days, exactly??
Cos, you never answered my question:
Name a weapon that’s banned by the Second Amendment.
However, when words like ‘tyranny’ and ‘oppression’ are thrown around when they’re really not warranted
=============================
Maybe you should start paying attention, then.
Although tyranny and oppression may be rather soft at this point, I don’t think it’s wise to let it grow fiercer.
DavidB
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:15 pm | Permalink
Oh dear how we long for the good old days…
When WERE the good old days, exactly??
Just my opinion but I think if you look at America before and after the JFK assination you will see a marked downward trend in the unity of this country.
and you also see a marked increase in people depending on the government
Tyranny and oppression in “free” societies generally has a slow growth cycle, and for good reason.
People who have been free for sometime, tend to have a short attention span. So tyranny must creep, one small freedom at a time, until all is lost.
Should we keep our heads firmly on our pillows until will hear tank tracks crushing the asphalt of our quiet streets?
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:10 pm | Permalink
#
XXX
Posted November 6, 2009 at 1:03 pm | Permalink
We’re good Americans just like you.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I don’t doubt that for one second. However, when words like ‘tyranny’ and ‘oppression’ are thrown around when they’re really not warranted, those words cease to have any true meaning.
__________________________
Daniel, those words have been “thrown around” forever. As to whether they’re warranted depends on whose ox is getting gored. The fact that these words are being used should be of concern to all of us. Why are a large number of Americans afraid of their government? Isn’t that worth addressing? I mean beyond classifying people as “dupes”?
Why are a large number of Americans afraid of their government? Isn’t that worth addressing? I mean beyond classifying people as “dupes”?
If you dismiss this sentiment you do so at your own peril
All I am saying is that more Americans need to understand why we have a Constitution and why it is important.
What we have is precious and can be taken away very easily.
Oh, during the Great Depression conservatives were railing against socialism of FDR.
During the Kennedy administration.. well, conservatives hated his guts, too. I recall stories of people cheering at the news of the Kennedy assassination.
This was circulating in Dallas before the killing:
http://www.near-death.com/images/people/politicians/lincoln/assassination/kennedy_treason_poster.jpg
The more things change, the more things remain the same, someone once said.
Oh, during the Great Depression conservatives were railing against socialism of FDR.
During the Kennedy administration.. well, conservatives hated his guts, too. I recall stories of people cheering at the news of the Kennedy assassination.
This was circulating in Dallas before the killing:
http://www.near-death.com/images/people/politicians/lincoln/assassination/kennedy_treason_poster.jpg
The more things change, the more things remain the same, someone once said.
If you dismiss this sentiment you do so at your own peril
=========================
Simple and well put.
We have George Soros, a follower of Hitler and spy on the Jewish people, behind moveon.org threatening our democratically elected congressmen if they don’t vote the democrat party line they will spend millions to get them defeated in the next election and Daniel and DavidB are saying don’t over react.
The people are mad. They refuse to let this country be put under the fist of the far left and the far left just can’t get that.
That stupid blog the left here ran off to is such a glaring picture of what is wrong with our nation today. We have people in the streets saying Taxed Enough Already and still they say give ‘the one’ a chance. What is wrong with the angry right on that other blog. For heavens sake don’t dialogue with someone who has a different opinion than you do. Keep the blinders on. Drink the koolaid. Good little sheeple everyone.
What is the point past where we can’t recover from as a nation?
Freebird1971
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:24 pm | Permalink
Why are a large number of Americans afraid of their government? Isn’t that worth addressing? I mean beyond classifying people as “dupes”?
If you dismiss this sentiment you do so at your own peril
_______________________
Ha! that sounds like something I’ve said.
Wait a minute….
Freebird, you’re exactly right. And I’m pretty sure that calling these folks names and trying to belittle thim isn’t going to address the problem.
I’ll stand by my use of “dupes”. It’s actually rather kind considering.
Only a few thousand of more than 300 million Americans were impacted by the estate tax in any way at all. People like Rush Limbaugh renamed it the “death tax” and suddenly there is a groundswell of support for bush abolishing the tax. Either they stupidly believed the tax affected them or they have some sort of un fathomable love for the super rich. These sorts of people would fight to the death for someone like Rush Limbaugh, who sitting on his fat a@@ makes more in an hour than they will in a lifetime. If there’s anything more stupid than that, I don’t know what it is.
And I’m pretty sure that calling these folks names and trying to belittle thim isn’t going to address the problem.
-XXX
=========================================
It will likely increase the strength of the movement.
FINALLY! A blog that helps to succinctly describe the political climate today:
http://18evolution.blogspot.com/2009/11/only-political-party-in-america.html
And BTW, it’s quite convenient to have such a great precedent set as Timothy McVeigh to quell any talk of and guilt people out of being “mad at government”.
For me, the jury is still out in regards to the OKC and Waco things.
And no, BJ, you don’t get it. I see zero difference between any upper echelon lefty or righty. You’ll never offer a book that has a title blaming “conservatives” for every ill in the world that will stand a chance to convince of it.
#
ANTI
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm | Permalink
Maybe you should start paying attention, then.
Although tyranny and oppression may be rather soft at this point, I don’t think it’s wise to let it grow fiercer.
=-=-=-===-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Main Entry: tyr·an·ny
Pronunciation: \?tir-?-n?\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural tyr·an·nies
Etymology: Middle English tyrannie, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin tyrannia, from Latin tyrannus tyrant
Date: 14th century
1 : oppressive power ; especially : oppressive power exerted by government
2 a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state b : the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
3 : a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force
4 : a tyrannical act
——————————
Main Entry: op·pres·sion
Pronunciation: \?-?pre-sh?n\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power
2 : a sense of being weighed down in body or mind : depression
————————-
Like I said, the words cease to have any true meaning.
Feel free to point out all this tyranny and oppression that I’m apparently oblivious to.
okobserver
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:28 pm | Permalink
The people are mad. They refuse to let this country be put under the fist of the far left and the far left just can’t get that.
______________________________
Okobserver, a couple of days ago, I talked to a number of good Republicans that are angry at their Republican reps, too. Nobody is clean. There’s blame enough to go around.
“What is the point past where we can’t recover from as a nation?”
Now that, dear lady, is the real question we need to be asking ourselves. Is it too late? Will there come a time when we can call ourselves Americans first?
We’re all in this together.
We’re all being had.
Since Obama has taken office 30% of private business has been taken over by his administration. Much of this has happened by his unapproved or elected henchmen. Susan Collins is calling for vetting of all of his appointed czars. The congress has finally realized that this prez has bypassed the legal processes set up by our founders to ‘just do it their way’.
If the left doesn’t see the danger in what is happening here then I hope they just get out of the way and let those who value the freedoms a lot of brave men and women died to give us carry on the fight to keep them.
Thank you Daniel, I am familiar with the definitions.
XXX if I gave the impression that I blame our circumstances on the Dems then let me correct that. I have written and called every repub representative I know to voice my displeasure with what they are doing or not doing. I told them not another dime will be coming their way from me until they stand up and say enough to the far left radicals and the plans they have to tax us into poverty. I heard today that 40% of Americans are not paying taxes now. No job – no money – no taxes. When revenues go down even further instead of letting programs go that will bankrupt us – we will see large tax raises.
It’s not enough to say I disagree with what is happening we have to do something about it.
Wish I could have been at the TEA party the other day.
Okee, yer such a joker!
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Cos, you never answered my question:
Name a weapon that’s banned by the Second Amendment.
——————–
XXX,
You answered that question earlier.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/11/open-thread-116-4/#comment-691047
Daniel if you can’t look at those definitions and see what is all around you then you might have ODed on the koolaid.
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:44 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Cos, you never answered my question:
Name a weapon that’s banned by the Second Amendment.
——————–
XXX,
You answered that question earlier.
___________________________________
But you didn’t. Please answer the question.
Name a weapon that’s banned by the Second Amendment.
#
XXX
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:22 pm | Permalink
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:10 pm | Permalink
Daniel, those words have been “thrown around” forever. As to whether they’re warranted depends on whose ox is getting gored. The fact that these words are being used should be of concern to all of us. Why are a large number of Americans afraid of their government? Isn’t that worth addressing? I mean beyond classifying people as “dupes”?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
XXX,
I haven’t classified any people as ‘dupes’ so please don’t paint me with the BlueJay brush.
The fact that those words are being used does cause me concern. I heard the same paranoid types ranting about black helicopters, secret airfields in Mena, Arkansas, how we would soon be invaded by UN troops, how the feds were subverting out national sovereignty, unchecked federal power, etc… all through the Clinton years. This (now) is the same political climate that spawned Tim McVeigh except this time the volume is cranked up to eleven.
I’ve seen you and others mentioning this ‘large number of Americans who _______.’(fill in the blank) but I’ve yet to see any evidence of these people beyond them being mentioned.
Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail.
http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/06/committee-confirms-comply-with-pelosi-care-or-go-to-jail/
“Although tyranny and oppression may be rather soft at this point, I don’t think it’s wise to let it grow fiercer.”-Anti
“Like I said, the words cease to have any true meaning.
Feel free to point out all this tyranny and oppression that I’m apparently oblivious to.”-Daniel
The groundwork is being laid for all of this tyranny and oppression right now, today.
You think that this universal healthcare is only about making sure that Damiel and BlueJay and Captain America and whomever else is well taken care of and given the same opportunity for life as anyone else.
Sounds noble and reasonable.
But when you give government an open ended blank check on YOUR health, that government can dictate exactly what it means to be healthy (according to its statistics and charts and pie graphs). You’ll be rated according to some 4-Food Group, height/weight ration from Hell. You don’t have a clue.
Have you seen the friggin’ school lunches that are served “according to governmental nutritional guidelines”?
WTH?!?!?!?!?
This tyranny and oppression is coming, question it all you like, but inch by inch and step by step you ain’t going to know what hit you.
But it is seeming like pot will be legalized (under the auspices of paying for healthcare by taxing it), so at least you can stay high while you live on scraps left by your loving government.
But watch the catch-22 about smoking it and getting healthcare because you do.
okobserver
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:43 pm | Permalink
Wish I could have been at the TEA party the other day.
______________________________
Yeah, I could have used the backup!
Just kidding. Everybody was really nice to me. Lots of good, civil discussion.
“Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates.”
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:46 am
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
——————-
Would your home-made bomb be part of “your rights under the “Second Amendment”?
__________________________________
No, it would be my response to a government gone mad. Don’t try to paint me as a terrorist, Cos.
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 12:17 pm
cosmos_originally
Posted November 6, 2009 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
XXX posted November 6, 2009 at 11:46 am
I can level a city block with just what I can lay my hands on in my shed and around the house. There are a lot of people who can do the same.
A LOT
——————-
Are you going to blow up the places that those “lot of people” live and/or work in? Blow up our US military bases?
_________________________________
Cos, like most people, I have a choice to make. I choose not to hurt anybody. That doesn’t mean I can’t…just that I choose not to.
Faith & Values
——————————-
XXX,
I hope that you continue to choose not to hurt anybody.
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:48 pm | Permalink
XXX,
I haven’t classified any people as ‘dupes’ so please don’t paint me with the BlueJay brush.
_______________________________
Daniel, I appoligize if I gave you that impression. It was not my intent. I find you to be a thoughtful and intelligent poster.
okobserver
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:37 pm | Permalink
Since Obama has taken office 30% of private business has been taken over by his administration.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh Lord, I’m hesitant to even ask, but where did you hear this little nugget? Care to cite any evidence that this is indeed the case beyond you saying it is?
Cos, the question is simple:
Name a weapon that’s banned by the Second Amendment.
Okay, now this is just too much:
Freebird: Sadly I believe there are those on this blog who would actually like to see tanks rolling down our streets silencing all dissent.
GMC–Sadly I believe there are those on this blog who would actually like to see tanks rolling down our streets silencing all dissent.
Yup. They generally inhabit the political left.
JimJohnson–I suppose some Radical Leftists here would welcome the Chinese troops, whom I am sure would be pleased to fight side-by-side with US troops, in putting down US Citizens who would choose to defend their Freedom.
*****
Wait just a cotton-picking minute.
This is unfair and you know it.
“Leftists” like FDR fought and won World War II.
Leftists like Truman dropped the bomb on Fascist Japan.
Leftists like the ACLU are fighting every day for people to have MORE free speech rights, and it’s generally the right (as in “My 10 Commandments but not yours go on the courthouse wall”) who oppose them.
Patriots of both sides of the political aisle have died fighting to keep this country free.
I hope as Veteran’s Day draws near, we can remember that and not let the emotionalism of anonymous posting deprive us of our reason . . . and respect.
No tyranny and no oppression is coming.
You people are swimming in dirty water and should really stop exposing yourselves to whatever it is you watch on TV.
It is affecting your minds in an unhealthy manner. IMHO.
There isn’t a person on this WEBlog who would want their government to take away rights or fight with foreign powers against their fellow citizens.
Such an accusation is so vile that there aren’t words with which to express a civil answer.
Chinese troops! My goodness!
DavidB
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
No tyranny and no oppression is coming.
===================================
Thanks DavidB, I feel a hell of a lot better now…
Yeah, David, hehe.
I guess the defunct Soviet Union (who couldn’t defeat the Chechyns!) just isn’t scary enough anymore for scare-mongering.
DavidB
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
No tyranny and no oppression is coming.
========================================
Be sure to tell BlueJay that when he’s in jail for not purchasing Health Insurance.
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
There isn’t a person on this WEBlog who would want their government to take away rights or fight with foreign powers against their fellow citizens.
Such an accusation is so vile that there aren’t words with which to express a civil answer.
________________________________
That bears repeating.
Right on, Capn.
You know, David, that’s one of the great things about getting older . . . I’ve seen it all before.
I heard that Social Security was going to go broke and “it wouldn’t be there for me” when I was a kid in the 60’s.
70’s, 80’s, 90’s, today . . . ditto.
I heard that there was going to be a big financial melt-down and civilization as we know it was going to go to hell and I should bury gold in my backyard and stockpile weapons.
That was in 1973, I believe.
I remember a best-selling book that came out in 1988 that declared with absolute certainty that there would be a major 30’s style world-wide Depression in 1992.
I remember Old Joe McCarthy saying in 1958 or so that the Democrats were guilty of “20 years of treason.” Ann Coulter came out with a book a few years back about Democrats entitled “Treason.”
The names change–the demagoguery and fear-mongering stay the same.
All,
Really interesting discussion today.
Thanks!
Time to check out and go spend some time with
Mrs XXX.
Back tomorrow.
Daniel I have to get to the post office because I have some taxes due by Tuesday and I want to make sure they get there.
As for that figure I read it in a printed form so don’t have a web site to direct you toward but using just plain old old fashioned horse sense – almost all of our financial institutions are under gov control. Two of the largest auto mfg are also under gov control.
The housing markets because of gov bailouts are under gov control and BTW fannie has her hand out for another 15 billion she has lost since July.
Well if you run those numbers then 30% is probably too low.
Gotta run. Back later.
Cap my dad was an FDR democrat. The last prez he voted for was JFK. He is probably turning over in his grave to see what his great party has turned into.
He raised a family of 8 on an auto mechanics wage. Never drew welfare and I didn’t know we were poor until someone told me when I was an adult.
Pride in his own abilities and also pride in taking care of his family made him one of the greatest men I have ever know. No he wouldn’t be a ‘leftist’ today.
I seem to remember some lefties (Capn’A) here claiming some anti-gov wingnut had to have done this:
AP
WASHINGTON – Investigators probing the death of a Kentucky census worker found hanging from a tree with the word “fed” scrawled on his chest increasingly doubt he was killed because of his government job and are pursuing the possibility he committed suicide, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press…..
The officials said investigators continue to look closely at suicide as a possible cause of Sparkman’s death for a number of reasons. There were no defensive wounds on Sparkman’s body, and while his hands were bound with duct-tape, they were still somewhat mobile, suggesting he could have manipulated the rope, the officials said.
Well, OKO, my dad was a rock-ribbed Republican, until your party decided to go absolutely insane.
Now he and Mom are glad they voted for Obama and are on the right side of history.
He scrawled “Fed” on his own body before he hanged himself?
Okay, I could be wrong. But he sure worked hard to make it look like murder, didn’t he.
He scrawled “Fed” on his own body before he hanged himself?
============================
If it was suicide, he may have done that due to shame. He didn’t want his family to know he killed himself.
Who knows?
He is probably turning over in his grave to see what his great party has turned into.
As a working man who knew who was hitting him over the head without having to listen to Rush Limbaugh, you’re probably right.
He’d be wondering, why have so many Democrats turned into such pandering shills for big business these days?
The case isn’t solved Capn’A, but it is interesting.
I forgot to post the link.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33685125/ns/us_news-life/
There isn’t a person on this WEBlog who would want their government to take away rights . . . .
Capn – you may be convinced of that. I’m not.
As for the FBI, these are the same folks who think that the Anthrax mail killer also committed suicide.
It a conVEENient way to close the books . . .
GMC–
And you base this on a few throw-away lines that people toss back and forth on a Blog?
Talk about “jumping to conclusions” . . .
I’m more afraid of someone who seems to truly believe that ordinary Americans would march side by side with an invading army.
That’s fairly psychotic, in a dangerous way.
Prison terms are not in the Health Bill.
•DavidB
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:38 pm | Permalink
Prison terms are not in the Health Bill.
======================================
Nope, but JAIL time is in the bill.
http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/JCTletter110509.pdf
• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”
DavidB
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
Know tyranny and no oppression is coming
——-
fixed it.
DavidB
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
Know tyranny and know oppression is coming
——-
fixed it.
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:21 pm | Permalink
Well, OKO, my dad was a rock-ribbed Republican, until your party decided to go absolutely insane.
Now he and Mom are glad they voted for Obama to prove they aren’t racists…
——
fixed it.
“. . .failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail.”
I suppose that if you spent your life drinking yourself to death and needed a liver transplant jail would be the way to get it.
Democrats are going to go down in history as the first political party to vote and approve legislation without having taken the time to read it.
Over 1,000 pages. Started this morning. How long to read 1,000 pages before completing and comprehending?
How long to ask questions or investigate portions which are not clear, or that you question?
And they are voting tomorrow.
Leap froggy. Follow the leader.
bbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Bb-baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
“failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended)”
As much as I would love to see some of these people go to jail [under the new democrat constitution], the exceptions and variances contained for people up to and including 400% of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) I really doubt anyone is going to jail.
It’s a gimmick to make blue nose libs feel good.
Biased–
Since you don’t know my parents from Adam’s off-ox, you really don’t know, do you.
Unemployment officially 10.2%. HIGHEST since 1982.
Actually hirer than than. Millions have given up. Millions have taken minimum wages part time jobs (and don’t show up in counts).
OBAMA BRAGGED ABOUT JOBS SAVED AND CREATED?!?!?!
Worst President Ever.
Obama Prez x 10 months. What’s his excuse?
STILL BLAMING BUSH???
haha!
Proof that there is a God:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×6937069
MAN COLLAPSES DURING REPUBLICON HATE-FEST AGAINST HEALTH CARE
WASHINGTON – NOVEMBER 05: A man who collapsed during a rally protesting the health care bill on the West Front of the U.S. Capitol is cared for by paramedics from the Office of the Attending Physician November 5, 2009 in Washington, DC. Thousands of people and most Republican members of the House of Representatives attended the rally to voice their opposition to the House version of the health care reform legislation moving through Congress.
Photos at link.
No, it’s a plan to make health care affordable and available for all.
American_Way
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:58 pm | Permalink
Democrats are going to go down in history as the first political party to vote and approve legislation without having taken the time to read it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
What makes you think they’re not gonna read it?
Now THIS is funny:
Jon Stewart as Glen Beck–
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200911060002
“Here’s the large intestine. Connected to the small intestine.
WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT KARL MARX ALSO HAD ONE OF . . . That doesn’t seem suspicious to you?
Phantom
Posted November 5, 2009 at 10:08 pm | Permalink
When you’re in the bunker and you tell your buddy “pass me another magazine”, you might get last months copy of playboy, tell him pass me another clip, you’ll get your ammo!”
Sorry Phantom, I don’t know what branch of the armed forces you served in, but in the Marine Corps – we filled our OWN magazines. NO ONE handed us a full magazine.
Our magazines were issued and we were responsible to clean and maintain them. We kept them clean. We kept them full. When empty – we went to the ammo can, or pouch and pulled out “stripper clips” of ball 7.62 rounds. We had a little Y shaped metal “thingy” (I forget what it was called, which we attached to the top of our “magazine” and took the “clip” holding I believe 10 rounds, and pushed the rounds off the clip into our “magazines” with our thumb. As we suppressed the top round (highest) on the clip pushing down, the pressure of the bottom round on the magazine spring forced the spring to compress and the rounds were fed INTO the magazine.
Because magazines get dirty (sand, dirt, moisture, etc…) the individual Marine had to keep them clean. If they didn’t the spring would get weak, clogged, and would not force the rounds from the “magazine” into the chamber – and we would have jams, or the weapon would cease firing because it wasn’t getting rounds into the chamber. In which case, Marines routinely hit their magazine release button, take the ejected magazine, and slap it against the hand, a shoe, a foot, or the ground to “reseat” the rounds.
For me to ask another Marine to “pass me another magazine” would be met with a curious perplexed look. Why? Because we didn’t. We filled our OWN magazines and kept our own magazines FULL. I couldn’t take another Marines magazine any more than I could steal his food or water.
It would be a cardinal sin.
What branch of the service were you in where they handed you full magazines PHANTOM?
(Me thinks you’ve been watching too many old movies)
PS: In the Marine Corps, they teach the nominclature of the M16 as an “air cooled, gas operated, magazine fed……… weapon.
On the range, the range control officer will pass the following order:
“With a magazine filled with five (or ten) rounds, lock and load!”
(Not a clip and ten rounds….)
Bunker?
“I’m sure that if we learned that al-Qaida was going to launch an attack on the United States and kill 44,789 Americans at any time next year, I’m sure that we would do anything in our power to prevent that. I submit to you we should do the same about this.
We should do exactly the same here because we face the same threat [from lack of health coverage].”
Who has ever been killed by lack of health coverage?
How long does it take any of you to read over 1,000 pages filled with legalize text?
Or just a 1,000 page book?
Be honest.
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 4:13 pm | Permalink
Proof that there is a God…
————–
I agree with Capn, there’s a God. The next question however is, is there a point to his post? And if so, what it is.
Let me put on my brain governor, which reduces my thinking ability by shocking me every five seconds per a short story by Kurt Vonnegut, one of Capn’s favorite authors, called “Harrison Bergeron”. This should help.
Oh, now I see:
Republicans are against socialized medicine and therefore it is ironic he should have been received government provided emergency treatment.
The person who collapsed got a taste of the elite version of the healthcare reform. The Office of The Attending Physician is for them, we get Bob’s Carwash and Cardiac Clinic.
With all of that legalese to read through, I could probably get through that legislation in about an hour.
Honest.
What’s ya’ll’s problem?
What’s ya’ll’s problem?
=============================
Pelosi won’t post it.
#
American_Way
Posted November 6, 2009 at 4:39 pm | Permalink
How long does it take any of you to read over 1,000 pages filled with legalize text?
Or just a 1,000 page book?
Be honest.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The key is not to leave all of your homework until the night before it’s due.
“Pelosi won’t post it.”-Anti
Oh, sure. Likely excuse.
She already said that she would give 72 hours to read it. And from the sound of it above, Daniel has already been reading it (he’s already done his homework, you see).
Are you calling Pelosi a liar Anti? That’s not very “reaching across the aisle-like” is it?
Are you calling Pelosi a liar Anti?
=======================================
Yes.
=]
It’s just like Bushco and his opaqueness, these people are no different.
If you’ve nothing to hide, show us.
Vonnegut was a huge liberal too . . .
capn seems to forget that health care coverage does not necessarily keep people from dying. ted kennedy, with all his millions and the best health care in the world (provided, of course, by taxpayers) still died.
Computers, Hard Drives Seized at ACORN’s New Orleans Office
Investigators for the Louisiana Attorney General executed a search warrant Friday at ACORN’s New Orleans office in connections to allegations of embezzlement and tax fraud.
Spokeswoman Tammi Arender Herring said the search warrant was executed shortly after 9 a.m. and resulted in the seizure of computers, hard drives and documents.
“It is quite a bit of stuff,” Herring said, adding that ACORN officials were “extremely cooperative.”
The search warrant follows the removal of computers and other items by two unidentified former ACORN employees when they left the organization, according to ACORN attorneys.
Assistant Attorney General David Caldwell said the original allegations of embezzlement were made last year by ACORN board members who were terminated after asking for an examination of the activist group’s books.
The bulk of this legislation has been written for months if not weeks. All our Congresscritters have to do is read any new language or amended language.
If they have to pull an all-nighter to get the legislation read before they cast their vote….tough ta-tas. It’s their responsibility to do so and if the can’t do it, stop send the functionally illiterate to D.C. to represent you.
And the big rush to pass Health Care Reform that will affect 1/6th of our economy is?
ACORN fired its longtime director of its Louisiana chapter last month, citing a lack of accountability.
Pamela Marple, an attorney for ACORN, acknowledged that the community activist group has been cooperating with a variety of governmental agencies in the past two months.
“The AG’s inquiry came in the form of a subpoena, which was issued in October and which requested virtually every document in the possession of ACORN and any related entity,” Marple said in a statement issued to FoxNews.com. “ACORN was working diligently with the AG’s office to understand the request and respond in a realistic manner, particularly because the subpoena requested well over a million documents.”
ACORN has been assured the computers will be returned shortly, Marple said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572706,00.html
#
Regular
Posted November 6, 2009 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
And the big rush to pass Health Care Reform that will affect 1/6th of our economy is?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Weren’t you asking this same question last July before Congress left town for its summer recess?
A question,
As bad as many think things were under GWB, and I opposed 1/2 of what he did, why were there no “Tea Protests” during his 8-year term?
Committee Confirms: Comply With Pelosi-Care Or Go To Jail
“Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.”
“In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: “This is the ultimate example of the Democrats’ command-and-control style of governing – buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.”
http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/06/committee-confirms-comply-with-pelosi-care-or-go-to-jail/
Hey, is this what you Dim’ocrats really want?
Their not out to help, they are out to control.
#
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 5:09 pm | Permalink
Vonnegut was a huge liberal too . . .
———-
I’ve read almost every one of his books, Capn some two or three times. It felt like going to a different reality reading his stuff.
I even attended a lecture he gave a long time ago at WSU.
#
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 5:49 pm | Permalink
A question,
As bad as many think things were under GWB, and I opposed 1/2 of what he did, why were there no “Tea Protests” during his 8-year term?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I’ve asked myself this same question many times and I’ve never been able to come up with any reasonable rationale.
Ben Stein’s got it right!
WE FIGURED HIM OUT! By Ben Stein
“Why is President Barack Obama in such a hurry to get his socialized medicine bill passed?
Because he and his cunning circle realize some basic truths:
The American people in their unimaginable kindness and trust voted for a pig in a poke in 2008.
They wanted so much to believe Barack Obama was somehow better and different from other ultra-leftists that they simply took him on faith.
They ignored his anti-white writings in his books.
They ignored his quiet acceptance of hysterical anti-American diatribes by his minister, Jeremiah Wright.
They ignored his refusal to explain years at a time of his life as a student.
They ignored his ultra-left record as a “community organizer,” Illinois state legislator, and Senator.
The American people ignored his total zero of an academic record as a student and teacher, his complete lack of scholarship when he was being touted as a scholar.
Now, the American people are starting to wake up to the truth. Barack Obama is a super likeable super leftist, not a fan of this country, way, way too cozy with the terrorist leaders in the Middle East , way beyond naïveté, all the way into active destruction of our interests and our allies and our future. The American people have already awakened to the truth that the stimulus bill — a great idea in theory — was really an immense bribe to Democrat interest groups, and in no way an effort to help all Americans.
Now, Americans are waking up to the truth that ObamaCare basically means that every time you are sick or injured, you will have a clerk from the Department of Motor Vehicles telling your doctor what he can and cannot do.
The American people already know that Mr. Obama’s plan to lower health costs while expanding coverage and bureaucracy is a myth, a promise of something that never was and never will be — a bureaucracy lowering costs in a free society. Either the costs go up or the free society goes away.
These are perilous times.. Mrs. Hillary Clinton, our Secretary of State, has given Iran the go-ahead to have nuclear weapons, an unqualified betrayal of the nation. Now, we face a devastating loss of freedom at home in health care. It will be joined by controls on our lives to “protect us” from global warming, itself largely a fraud if believed to be caused by man.
Mr. Obama knows Americans are getting wise and will stop him if he delays at all in taking away our freedoms. There is his urgency and our opportunity. Once freedom is lost, America is lost. Wake up, beloved America .
Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly Hills and Malibu . He writes “Ben Stein’s Diary” for every issue of The American Spectator.”
“taking away our freedoms” Paranoid ranting.
Buy the Dem health insurance plan or go to jail. Our nanny government wants your money and control. Get lost Nasty Nazi Nancy.
http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:36 pm | Permalink
Main Entry: tyr·an·ny
Main Entry: op·pres·sion
————————-
Like I said, the words cease to have any true meaning.
Feel free to point out all this tyranny and oppression that I’m apparently oblivious to.
—————————————
If you are oblivious to current events, then apparently you do not have a “tipping point”.
You asked what that “Tipping Point” was before. Just was is your definition of “Freedom”?
Freedom has been constantly eroded by the Federal Government, especially so in the last 100 years. At what point does Government Regulation and the Taking of Your Property, and Telling You What To Do When become excessive?
So far, increasing Government regulation and the taking of property has been very slow and incremental. That process has sped up exponentially in the last 12 months.
Tipping Point? Hard to say what THE Tipping Point will be. It seems this Administration is bound and determined to push us enough to find out where that Tipping Point is.
It likely would be a combination of several things.
Excessive Taxation.
Gun Confiscation.
Control of Your Healthcare.
Control of What Food You Eat.
Means Testing of Social Security.
Taxing Your Heating/Cooling Bills Doubling Your Costs.
Putting Any Part of American Life Under UN Control.
Mandating What Car/Truck You Can Drive.
Lotsa of wonderful CHANGE is waiting to be lavished upon us from the wunnerful US Government.
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
There isn’t a person on this WEBlog who would want their government to take away rights
———————————–
THAT is certainly NOT True.
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 5:29 pm | Permalink
#
Regular
Posted November 6, 2009 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
And the big rush to pass Health Care Reform that will affect 1/6th of our economy is?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Weren’t you asking this same question last July before Congress left town for its summer recess?
——————–
Possibly, and I’m sure the package that Pelosi is presenting now is different that what it was in July.
As I said, what exactly is the big rush?
cosmos_originally
XXX,
I hope that you continue to choose not to hurt anybody.
————————————
That’s a flaming strawman if I ever saw one.
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:12 pm | Permalink
You know, David, that’s one of the great things about getting older . . . I’ve seen it all before.
I heard that Social Security was going to go broke and “it wouldn’t be there for me” when I was a kid in the 60’s.
———————————-
Have you read the latest solvency report of Social Security and Medicare?
You are truly ignorant.
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 5:53 pm | Permalink
#
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 5:49 pm | Permalink
A question,
As bad as many think things were under GWB, and I opposed 1/2 of what he did, why were there no “Tea Protests” during his 8-year term?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I’ve asked myself this same question many times and I’ve never been able to come up with any reasonable rationale.
========================================
Attend a tea party, and you will find your answer there.
Medicare has been “insolvent” or bankrupt for quite a while now.
Social Security is not and probably will not be any time in the near future.
That’s a trick that the CONs like to play–CONflating Soc Sec. and Medicare.
They’re two completely different things. But by putting them together, they can make Soc. Sec. look a lot worse.
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:36 pm | Permalink
Main Entry: tyr·an·ny
Main Entry: op·pres·sion
————————-
Like I said, the words cease to have any true meaning.
Feel free to point out all this tyranny and oppression that I’m apparently oblivious to.
============================================
If you don’t understand the meaning of the words, then that explains your blindness to current events.
Daniel asks why there were no T-baggers when Bush DOUBLED the national debt?
Simple answer, Daniel.
Bush wasn’t black.
I can remember when the CONs asked disingenuously how I had been personally harmed by Bush’s unCONstitutional spying and arrests.
Now when they are asked “how has Obama hurt you?” they can only sputter, “isn’t it obvious?!”
Look at Social Security and Medicare separately then Capn.
Oh, and please do show us the link to your findings.
They have been posted here many times, yet you continue to dismiss them.
But now, Now that the reports are being completed by Democrats, I’m sure the solvency will appear much better now.
Look forward to your report, as you know, nobody can believe a word of what YOU say.
Please do quote some credible sources for Social Security and Medicare solvency, IF you want to make a valid point on this topic.
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 6:26 pm | Permalink
Daniel asks why there were no T-baggers when Bush DOUBLED the national debt?
Simple answer, Daniel.
Bush wasn’t black.
——————-
The race card is getting old. Obama was 1/2 black when he was elected, so why would America now protest him because he is 1/2 black?
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 6:28 pm | Permalink
I can remember when the CONs asked disingenuously how I had been personally harmed by Bush’s unCONstitutional spying and arrests.
Now when they are asked “how has Obama hurt you?” they can only sputter, “isn’t it obvious?!”
————————————–
Try this on for size Capn:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/11/open-thread-116-4/#comment-690973
Prediction dates of insolvency and deficit accounting in Social Security and Medicare
May 13, 2009
The report, issued yesterday by the trustees who monitor the government’s two main forms of help for the elderly, shows that Medicare has become more fragile as well and is at greater risk than Social Security of imminent fiscal collapse. Starting eight years from now, the report says, the health insurance program will be unable to pay all its hospital bills.
Medicare is now predicted to run out of money in 2017, two years earlier than forecast a year ago.
Yesterday’s report also said the Social Security trust fund will begin to spend more money than it takes in through tax revenue in 2016, one year sooner than predicted a year ago. Specifically, the trustees’ report predicts that the trust fund from which Social Security payments are made will be unable to pay retirees full benefits by 2037, four years earlier than forecast a year ago.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/12/AR2009051200252.html
#
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 6:26 pm | Permalink
Daniel asks why there were no T-baggers when Bush DOUBLED the national debt?
Simple answer, Daniel.
Bush wasn’t black.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Like I said, I haven’t been able to come up with any reasonable rationale.
Yeah . . . that’s the thing about these reports, they are always PROJECTIONS about 30 years in the future.
In the 1970’s, GW predicted that Social Security would be bust in 1988, heigh ho.
And not only that, in 2037, Regular will be long dead . . .
“Social Security is not and probably will not be any time in the near future.”-Cap’n
Social Security is dependent upon a supply of new people filling the jobs to supply the money to supply the retired with Social Security.
People are being discouraged from reproducing. Jobs are becoming very scarce, those that are gone as of late are gone for good.
The math can’t work unless there is a new legal retirement age of “dead”…then maybe it’ll be there.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/12/AR2009051200252.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=alsJZqIFuN3k
Does no one know how to manage money?
Spoiled and ignorant brats = Americans
Dammit, we’re all better than this.
That middle aged guy dancing around with the “Obamanation” hat on his head . . . yeah . . .
He didn’t have to wrap himself in white sheets and a swastika, we got it.
Here’s a more recent forecast than 2037…about 20 years sooner.
http://www.michigandaily.com/content/social-security-insolvent-2017-trustees-say
Good thing the Maya already said it’ll end in 2012… phew.
Here’s a chart comparing the National Debt as a percentage of the GDP.
Democrats win!
Democrats take the prize of increasing the national debt as a percentage of the GDP.
Take your prize Dems.
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3747/nationaldebtgdp.gif
#
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 6:25 pm | Permalink
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 2:36 pm | Permalink
Main Entry: tyr·an·ny
Main Entry: op·pres·sion
————————-
Like I said, the words cease to have any true meaning.
Feel free to point out all this tyranny and oppression that I’m apparently oblivious to.
============================================
If you don’t understand the meaning of the words, then that explains your blindness to current events.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
You misunderstand. I do understand the meaning of those words and I didn’t say that I’m oblivious to current events, just that I’m not interpreting every action of the new administration as proof of actual, intended, or future oppression and tyranny.
I suspect that your threshold for what constitutes oppression and tyranny is a lot closer to McVeigh’s threshold than mine.
It was Ronald Reagan who really accelerated tax cuts for the rich. A nation in need of funds does not cut the taxes of the rich. It aint rocket science.
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 6:42 pm | Permalink
Yeah . . . that’s the thing about these reports, they are always PROJECTIONS about 30 years in the future.
In the 1970’s, GW predicted that Social Security would be bust in 1988, heigh ho.
And not only that, in 2037, Regular will be long dead . . .
—————-
So it’s okay to ignore the fact that Social Security will be spending more than it takes in by 2016.
I see.
I hope you don’t keep the check book in your family.
“I hear that Dr. Joe Medicine Crow (ph) was around, and so I want to give a shout out to that Congressional Medal of Honor winner. It’s good to see you.”
Obama, often described as “cerebral” ( teehee )by the mainstream media, should know the difference between the Medal of Honor and the Medal of Freedom, especially since he personally awarded the latter to Crow. Don’t expect his blunder to receive wide coverage. It’s not something he can blame George Bush for.
The idea to cut taxes “for the rich” is that these rich guys might go buy a bunch of big ticket items, maybe invest it in new companies and thus give those little guys a job building it. All too often the “rich guy” is painted as some eeeveel doer. But the super wealthy, the really bad guys are the ones funding all of those that hate the rich mans’ pet PETA, ACLU, Green Peace and Sierra Club pet projects and they end up looking golden.
Backwards.
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/01/10/Exxon-chief-backs-carbon-tax/UPI-71261231623923/
In horse races, if you own both horses, you win.
“All too often the “rich guy” is painted as some eeeveel doer.
Feel free to expound on the value to American society of Rush Limbaugh. He produces nothing useful and encourages people to vote against their own best interests. He also seems to not have ever learned the concept of enough. As in, he has ENOUGH money. There is no small number of people who have more money than they could ever possibly spend. As long as there is one American who goes without, this is unacceptable.
When Jethro and LuAnn from Soggy Bottom can win $10 million in the Powerball and have it blown on tittie bars, pink flamingo’s and Little Debbie’s within a year, that ain’t rich.
These days we speak of trillions like we used to talk of billions.
A slob working 60 hours a week and making $100,000. is not rich.
I hate Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann…blah, blah, blah.
I guess you should hate Mick Jagger and Paul McCartney and Steven Tyler because they’re so stupid with their money…and lucky, don’t forget that, they’re just lucky.
If your slob making 100 K a year was taxed more, he MIGHT be inclined to work fewer hours. THEN maybe someone else gets a job.
Taxes are good.
I bet all these cons that were lauding prejean for her morals have been busy scouring the internet in search of her sex tape.
I imagine GDP fell of the cliff along with our economy.
off
“Feel free to expound on the value to American society of Rush Limbaugh. He produces nothing useful and encourages people to vote against their own best interests. He also seems to not have ever learned the concept of enough. As in, he has ENOUGH money.”–Junior
Another idiotic statement, they are endless from you junior.
Limbaugh produces an entertainment and information product that people, millions of people, want to listen to and producers will pay handsomely for to have him sell.
Junior produces nothing but tripe and is paid accordingly.
Obama’s Frightening Insensitivity Following Shooting
A bad week for Democrats compounded by an awful moment for Barack Obama.
By ROBERT A. GEORGE
Updated 2:56 PM CST, Fri, Nov 6, 2009
Getty Images President Obama didn’t wait long after Tuesday’s devastating elections to give critics another reason to question his leadership, but this time the subject matter was more grim than a pair of governorships.
After news broke out of the shooting at the Fort Hood Army post in Texas, the nation watched in horror as the toll of dead and injured climbed. The White House was notified immediately and by late afternoon, word went out that the president would speak about the incident prior to a previously scheduled appearance. At about 5 p.m., cable stations went to the president. The situation called for not only his trademark eloquence, but also grace and perspective.
But instead of a somber chief executive offering reassuring words and expressions of sympathy and compassion, viewers saw a wildly disconnected and inappropriately light president making introductory remarks. At the event, a Tribal Nations Conference hosted by the Department of Interior’s Bureau of Indian affairs, the president thanked various staffers and offered a “shout-out” to “Dr. Joe Medicine Crow — that Congressional Medal of Honor winner.” Three minutes in, the president spoke about the shooting, in measured and appropriate terms. Who is advising him?
Anyone at home aware of the major news story of the previous hours had to have been stunned. An incident like this requires a scrapping of the early light banter. The president should apologize for the tone of his remarks, explain what has happened, express sympathy for those slain and appeal for calm and patience until all the facts are in. That’s the least that should occur.
Indeed, an argument could be made that Obama should have canceled the Indian event, out of respect for people having been murdered at an Army post a few hours before. That would have prevented any sort of jarring emotional switch at the event.
Did the president’s team not realize what sort of image they were presenting to the country at this moment? The disconnect between what Americans at home knew had been going on — and the initial words coming out of their president’s mouth was jolting, if not disturbing.
It must have been disappointing for many politically aware Democrats, still reeling from the election two days before. The New Jersey gubernatorial vote had already demonstrated that the president and his political team couldn’t produce a winning outcome in a state very friendly to Democrats (and where the president won by 15 points one year ago). And now this? Congressional Democrats must wonder if a White House that has burdened them with a too-heavy policy agenda over the last year has a strong enough political operation to help push that agenda through.
If the president’s communications apparatus can’t inform — and protect — their boss during tense moments when the country needs to see a focused commander-in-chief and a compassionate head of state, it has disastrous consequences for that president’s party and supporters.
All the president’s men (and women) fell down on the job Thursday. And Democrats across the country have real reason to panic.
New York writer Robert A. George blogs at Ragged Thots. Follow him on Twitter.
———————
Where are all of the critics on the blog that have commented ad nauseum about Bush finishing reading to the school children instead of jumping up and running from the room on 9/11. What do you think of your brilliant leader now. Where is that smarter than anyone person that always does the right thing unless he doesn’t. He has shamed our country so many times and made himself look like an idiot so frequently that the press usually just lets it go. I guess even they are getting tired of covering for him now.
Yet there are some, Rage, mostly among the Democratic party, who would willingly do same. Tomorrow. Including the President. If they thought they had the votes.
Oh brother. File this one with the secret Kenyan Muslim crap.
But you are welcome to your paranoid delusions.
I prefer reality, and there’s plenty about this administration to criticize–real, documented facts–without making things up.
As for the other Democrats, put up or shut up: Name a single bill introduced in Congress to confiscate firearms. It didn’t even have to make it out of committee. Just introduced.
(Now watch GMC waffle-and-dissemble something entirely different into the same thing, via a slippery-slope argument)
BJ I think I found someone you can go after to share their wealth with you. They are making the laws that will take it away from you to begin with. Notice all of those Ds after their names and how few Rs you see.
———-
As Washington reels from the news of 10.2 percent unemployment, the Center for Responsive Politics is out with a new report describing the wealth of members of Congress.
Among the highlights: Two-hundred-and-thirty-seven members of Congress are millionaires. That’s 44 percent of the body – compared to about 1 percent of Americans overall.
CRP says California Republican Rep. Darrell Issa is the richest lawmaker on Capitol Hill, with a net worth estimated at about $251 million. Next in line: Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.), worth about $244.7 million; Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wis.), worth about $214.5 million; Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.), worth about $209.7 million; and Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), worth about $208.8 million.
All told, at least seven lawmakers have net worths greater than $100 million, according to the Center’s 2008 figures.
“Many Americans probably have a sense that members of Congress aren’t hurting, even if their government salary alone is in the six figures, much more than most Americans make,” said CRP spokesman Dave Levinthal. “What we see through these figures is that many of them have riches well beyond that salary, supplemented with securities, stock holdings, property and other investments.”
————-
I say send them all home.
I think it is the stupid bible that is part of the reason Americans are so screwed up. The whole idea that people with little or nothing shalt not covet what someone else has. I kinda doubt that was written by a poor guy. Side benefit ya get to tell the poor guy that poverty is God’s plan for him! Idiots.
Which version is the Stupid Bible?
“I think it is the stupid bible that is part of the reason Americans are so screwed up.”—Junior
I know one “American” that is “so screwed up”….Junior there.
even with as tragic as the event was- to put it in the same category as the 911 events is absurd.
I thought the president sounded really tired. but i never found it inappropriate. I guess some really just want to criticize obama for everything and anything.
I think religion is the reason so much of the world is so screwed up period.
#
JimJohnson
Posted November 6, 2009 at 6:13 pm | Permalink
CapnAmerica
Posted November 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
There isn’t a person on this WEBlog who would want their government to take away rights
———————————–
THAT is certainly NOT True.
————————————–
I read posts every day on this blog from people who get foaming at the mouth angry when someone exercises their right to disagree wth the president,som have even gone as far as saying if you disagree with the the president your Anti America,from what I surmise from their posts is that they would love to limit or silence free speech.
So yes there are people out there who would like nothing more than have the government cntrol all aspects of society,because it is much easier to depend on someone else than it is to depend on your self
When did he sound really tired pmom – when he was ‘giving the shout’ out. It never fails to amaze me that you and your far left buddies can rail on Bush from day one and excuse Obama for doing as bad or worse.
I have never thought that anything would have been served by Bush jumping up and running from the room but the left even put it in a Michael Moore movie.
Now you get a taste of your own medicine and your excuse is that ‘he was tired’. What has he been doing?
politicalmama
Posted November 6, 2009 at 8:20 pm | Permalink
I think religion is the reason so much of the world is so screwed up period.
—————–
I think far left nut wings are the reason the world is so screwed up. Who in the world brought ‘religion’ into this thread. You and BJ.
okobserver posted November 6, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Who in the world brought ‘religion’ into this thread. You and BJ.
——————
No, donndublin did, at 8:08 am near the top of the thread.
Obama: Without the stimulus, they saw the unemployment rate — then 7.2 percent — rising above 8 percent in 2009 and peaking at 9 percent next year. With the stimulus, the advisers said, unemployment would probably peak at 8 percent late this year.
October 2009 unemployment = 10.2%
that would be “with” the stimulus
So is Obama a LIAR,or just ignorant?
Which is it libs?
What the he11 happened to Trickle Up?
[looking at the dying economy, gubermint ownership of rusting companies, banks begging for more money, citizens begging for clunker dollars, home buyers looking for free money, and women standing in line for Obama Money]
“You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to he11!”
“religion is the reason so much of the world is so screwed up”
If that is true, then why are democrats voting on Obamacare which will provide federal tax payers money for prayer?
AmWay I am actually starting to feel sorry for the poor man. He is obviously in over his pay grade. From a community organizer to a part time senator who only knew how to vote ‘present.
The dems were so enamoured by his speaking ability they forgot to look under the covers. Nothing there. Now they are in a position to defend his actions or lack thereof and all the while the nation is melting down around us.
But lets push that healthcare plan through. Hold weekend sessions. Don’t worry about unemployment. What are a few million out of work citizens. Lets get them some of that healthcare.
Going Rogue: An American Life by Sarah Palin (Hardcover – Nov 17, 2009)
Buy new: $28.99 $4.99
Available for Pre-order. This item will be released on Nov 17, 2009.
Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.
___________________________________________
It isn’t even released yet and it’s already under $5.00!!!
The great white dope is a loser.
Poor American_Way cannot understand that “they” + “advisers” does not = President Obama.
Too much trans fat, American_Way?
“Now they are in a position to defend his actions or lack thereof and all the while the nation is melting down around us.”
They can only fool the people for a short time before people start catching on to how bad things really are. Even the press is beginning to have doubts and are seeing cracks in the Obama armor.
Members of the democrat party are beginning to turn on him and elections reflect independents are not so easily swayed by the koolaid.
“By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.”
Cosmos going straight for the throat tonight? Anyone can do that. I really expected better from you. I thought you had some reasonable intelligence, what with all the scientific cut and paste.
Name calling already. I must have hit close to home.
And you join the ranks for the blogs lowest form.
What are the symptoms of H1N1?
Because Pleefer is making sense to me tonight.
American_Way,
So why don’t you understand that “they” + “advisers” does not = President Obama?
And asking (with a “?”) if you’ve ingested too much trans fat is not “name calling”.
“By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.”
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It’s even more effective when you have a catapult.
And asking (with a “?”) if you’ve ingested too much trans fat is not “name calling”.
——————————
It’s taunting and you know it cosMAO, that’s why you do it.
In real life, it would get your butt whipped.
You are right Cosmos. It’ simply insulting.
It’s what you have become.
Bush saved or created over 20 million jobs during his presidency.
How’s the worst president ever doing in comparison?
American_Way,
Why don’t you understand that “they” + “advisers” does not = President Obama?
Hey Phantom! Pass me another M1A1 Abrams, wouldja?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/11/open-thread-116-4/#comment-691173
Bush saved or created over 20 million jobs during his presidency.
==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
Did you hear that from
ksgramokobserver?AMA’s Endorsement of House Health Care Bill Sparks Internal Uprising
Some AMA members are outraged that the group’s trustees made the endorsement without the formal approval of the organization’s House of Delegates.
“The American Medical Association’s much-touted endorsement of the House health care reform bill has triggered a revolt among some members who want the endorsement withdrawn.
Some members are outraged that the group’s trustees made the endorsement without the formal approval of the organization’s House of Delegates.
On Monday, delegates will vote on a resolution offered by some members that, if approved, will withdraw the AMA’s endorsement of the bill.”
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/06/amas-endorsement-house-health-care-sparks-internal-uprising/
Aren’t Liberal Dim’ocrats nice….nice vipers that is. Turning on their own even.
Even the Dims know this is a power grab, not something to help folks.
“A civil war is threatening to erupt within the Democratic Party as liberal advocacy group MoveOn.org looks to punish moderate Democrats opposed to the sweeping health care overhaul proposed by party leaders.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/06/liberal-activist-groups-threatens-democrats-opposed-government-run-option/
MoveOn has reportedly raised more than $3.5 million in contributions to fund primary challenges against “any Democratic senator who blocks an up-or-down vote on health care reform with a public option,” according to an e-mail sent to group members on Thursday.”
Daniel
Posted November 6, 2009 at 10:06 pm | Permalink
Bush saved or created over 20 million jobs during his presidency.
==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
Did you hear that from ksgram okobserver?
—————
Was that even necessary?
Cosmos
Let’s “pretend” for a moment you and I are normal human beings. Let’s then pretend we have met each other in some setting, a bar, a library, a teaparty, whatever normal even where we meet mano-a-mano.
Let me call you an azz hole.
Then ask you to carry on a conversation with you.
Whatdaya think? If we were speaking man to man.
“Was that even necessary?”
No Regular it wasn’t. But it helps secure the fact the liberals are destroying this weblog.
And libs like to blame those darn cons for it.
American_Way,
So you don’t know why you don’t understand that “they” + “advisers” does not = President Obama?
“What are the symptoms of H1N1?
Because Pleefer is making sense to me tonight.”-outlander
Yeeeaaahhh,
Sorry ’bout that, I’m trying to be mindful enough to blog in my sleeve.
Page 32 of this PDF has something to say…
http://gwumc.edu/hspi/old/PTTF_ProceedingsReport_05.19.09.pdf
#
Regular
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:01 pm | Permalink
Did you hear that from
ksgramokobserver?—————
Was that even necessary?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
No, it wasn’t necessary.
American_Way
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:10 pm | Permalink
“Was that even necessary?”
No Regular it wasn’t. But it helps secure the fact the liberals are destroying this weblog.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
You might want to check your eye, looks like you might have something in it.
#
American_Way
Posted November 6, 2009 at 11:08 pm | Permalink
Cosmos
Let’s “pretend” for a moment you and I are normal human beings. Let’s then pretend we have met each other in some setting, a bar, a library, a teaparty, whatever normal even where we meet mano-a-mano.
Let me call you an azz hole.
Then ask you to carry on a conversation with you.
Whatdaya think? If we were speaking man to man.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I’d probably think that you’re an a55 hole.
Exactly right Daniel.
Insult me, but don’t then expect me to engage in a rational discussion with you.
Some of us are trying. Not perfect. Still slipping.
But trying.
Poor old American_Way. . . he doesn’t seem to know why he doesn’t understand that “they” + “advisers” does not = President Obama.
#
American_Way
Posted November 7, 2009 at 8:20 am | Permalink
Exactly right Daniel.
Insult me, but don’t then expect me to engage in a rational discussion with you.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
You see, this would really bother me only if I thought you were capable of engaging in rational discussion.
Since you don’t seem to be, it doesn’t.
Capisce?