It sounds like a fine idea — getting members of Congress to take a pledge to read “every word” of every bill before voting on it. But the Read to Vote “proposal would bring government to a standstill,” the Washington Post editorialized. Reading all 1,427 pages of the Waxman-Markey energy bill would take at least 12 hours. Realize that the House handled 7,441 bills and joint resolutions during the 110th Congress, and you can see the problem, especially if legislators also are expected to go to hearings, meet with constituents, help craft bills and conduct other business. Though big bills should not be rushed to a vote without time for review, the editorial argued, members of Congress need not be “shuttered for half of every workday just to read through ‘every word’ of every bill that might come to a vote. At some point, it’s fine for members of Congress to rely on expert staff members.” To their credit, though, Kansas Republican Reps. Todd Tiahrt, Jerry Moran and Lynn Jenkins are among the 118 members of Congress who’ve taken a separate pledge to read any health care reform legislation before they vote on it.
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- CapnAmerica on ACORN stole election?
- CapnAmerica on ACORN stole election?
- janeeyre on Bad timing on mammogram recommendation
- Raptor on Open thread 11/21
- janeeyre on Open thread 11/21
- Regular on Open thread 11/21
- XXX on Open thread 11/21
- Daniel on ACORN stole election?
- Daniel on Open thread 11/21
- satatom on Open thread 11/21
217 Comments
Representatives are the ones who vote on a bill, but they are the top of pyramid of trusted staffers, advisers and even lobbyists who do most of the reading and fact checking on bills. This is the way it has always been. A Read the Bill pledge is a cheap political talking point.
It’s like asking a CEO to double check every line and calculation on their company’s financial spreadsheets.
Todd Tiahrt claims to have read the health reform bill, HR 3200, yet he continues to make untrue claims about what is in it.
Pointless political posturing.
This is ridiculous – we elect our representatives to represent US. I expect my elected officials to read and understand any bill they are voting on. It was apparent in the last round of townhall meetings that many congressmen were uninformed as to the content of the bill they were either defending or opposing.
Fire them all. Reading is a very basic human intelligence. If they can’t read, it’s time to go.
Two minutes a page seems like pretty fast reading. Especially legalese. And reading a bill can be like reading a legal case. Even after reading it you may not know what it says. Often readers will apply a sub-category to another part of the bill.
It often takes discussion to understand what a bill says.
“To their credit, though, Kansas Republican Reps. Todd Tiahrt, Jerry Moran and Lynn Jenkins are among the 118 members of Congress who’ve taken a separate pledge to read any health care reform legislation before they vote against it.
And since they will vote against it anyway, the pledge is meaningless.”
There, fixed it for you.
And I truly doubt that these three worthies will honor their pledge, particularly Todd the ideologue and Lynn the lightweight.
“This is ridiculous – we elect our representatives to represent US. I expect my elected officials to read and understand any bill they are voting on. It was apparent in the last round of townhall meetings that many congressmen were uninformed as to the content of the bill they were either defending or opposing.”
1) It’s hard to appear to know what one is talking about when asking questions that are so irrelevant as to be surreal, as many of the townhall questions were.
2) Reread this passage as often as it takes for it to actually sink in:
“Reading all 1,427 pages of the Waxman-Markey energy bill would take at least 12 hours. Realize that the House handled 7,441 bills and joint resolutions during the 110th Congress, and you can see the problem, especially if legislators also are expected to go to hearings, meet with constituents, help craft bills and conduct other business.”
There is a reason why congresscritters have staffs.
We’re dealing (as so often) with two competing proberbs: is it “The Devil is in the Details” or “Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff”?
Most legislation contains a lot of minutia. Will the program be administered by an agency or by a bureau? How many regional or local offices? How many vehicles and from which motor pool?
I’m not sure it would be such a bad thing but Lynn Jenkins would burst a blood vessel if she had to plow through the process for contracting janitorial service in the office of the Butte, Montana agricultural extension office. Such things are for staff-workers and interns to check out. It’s called delegation of duties and responsibilities.
Reading every bill harder than it sounds
======================================
So?
It’s their damn job!
Quit boinking your staffers, drinking scotch, and engaging in real estate deals, and do your freaking jobs!
No, Anti. Their job is to understand the bill and its implications and VOTE on it. One way is to read each and every bill, but this would probably be impossible to do. The way it is really done is to rely on your staff.
You may recall the huge crowd of aides and staff that stood outside the capitol to mark the passing of Senator Kennedy’s hearse. These bright young staffers are the ones who support the legislators.
I suppose I could ask this of any supporter of this “Pledge,” “How many of the documents we sign or agree to regularly (mortgages, credit card applications, software Terms of Use, even your bank account policies) have you read entirely?
If their staff are competent people with adequate skills, Americans do get their money’s worth. Too often staff are old high-school chums, people who helped them kick someone off the ladder in their advance upwards and are equally or more unqualified as the person who was elected.
Remember when lawmakers wrote the bills, not lobbyists? Remember when lawmakers actually had knowledge of the Constitution and law?
I’ve never known Tiahrt to do more than political posturing. I thought he was the worst of the worst, then along came Lynn Jenkins.
Kansans are ‘represented’ by nincompoops.
“How many of the documents we sign or agree to regularly (mortgages, credit card applications, software Terms of Use, even your bank account policies) have you read entirely?
========================================
2 points:
1. I wasn’t elected by the people to make decisions on those items.
2. Those items affect me, not millions of people I “represent”.
Try again.
KansansAmericans are ‘represented’ by nincompoops.Well alright, let’s try that again;
KansansAmericans are ‘represented’ by nincompoops.Now back to the salt mines, have fun ya’ll.
But the Read to Vote “proposal would bring government to a standstill,”
Someone want to explain to me how that’s a bad thing?
“But the Read to Vote “proposal would bring government to a standstill,”
Someone want to explain to me how that’s a bad thing?”
In your case it would eliminate your paycheck. Still no problem with government being at a standstill?
We elect representatives because we agree with their ‘promises’ in encacting laws. We didn’t vote on their staffers and have no idea what their political leanings are. How then can they be responsible for telling our elected officials to vote yes or no on any bill.
The major problem Obama is running into is his lack of knowledge on the very bill he is pushing. The people have picked up on this. Yes the bill needs to be read.
Stop hiding behind ‘this is legalese’ that no one can understand as John Kerry said last week. If you can’t understand it. Vote no. Then rewrite the bill with language you can understand that clearly spells out what it proposes to do.
Agnatha
Posted October 5, 2009 at 7:30 am | Permalink
There is a reason why congresscritters have staffs.
==============================================
AAAMEN, Agnatha… I pointed out that very thing the other day when this subject appeared on one of the threads… Staff are paid well for just this sort of thing…
I agree with GMC, slowing down is not a bad thing. There are few exceptions to the rule that would require the Congress to act in emergency or with all due haste.
Months, years – careful deliberation is best…
And Monkey between ‘don’t sweat the small stuff’ and ‘the devil is in the details’ there is a mountain of difference.
The healthcare bill and cap and trade bill will be two of the most costly bills ever passed. No representative worth his salt would give it an up or down vote without reading it. If they can’t understand it then sit down with their staffers and go over it together.
No bill this costly should be voted on much less passed without completely understanding what it will do, how it will be funded, what it’s impact on the economy will be, what it’s impact on the citizens of the US will be, etc…
Yes they should be read.
okobserver
Posted October 5, 2009 at 8:36 am | Permalink
We elect representatives because we agree with their ‘promises’ in encacting laws. We didn’t vote on their staffers and have no idea what their political leanings are. How then can they be responsible for telling our elected officials to vote yes or no on any bill.
===============================================
Of COURSE we dont vote on staff people… What a corn ball post… We vote on representatives who are quite capable of hiring their own staff members… And like it or not, SOME of those staff members READ legislation, and report to their bosses…
What next, are you going to insist that representatives actually SIGN by hand every piece of mail they send out???
And just do you think committees and sub-committees are for?? Well, to prepare legislation for the Floor of the House or Senate… And ALL of the representatives serve on committees….
Such dunderheads on the CON side of the aisle…. Good grief!!
Chas no CEO worth his salt will relegate his authority to ‘lowly’ staffers. I can assure those like DavidB who say CEO’s don’t look at the details of a financial statement that that just isn’t true when it comes to good CEOs.
I can also assure him that a CEO or elected representative or prez is where the buck stops. If you don’t believe this just look at Lay at Enron. Ignorance of what the finance dept and what the auditors were doing didn’t save his bacon now did it?
These representatives are responsible. Bottom line. Ignorance of the law is no defense. No staffer is ‘responsible’ for what is in the law. You need to go back to what the job description for an elected representative is.
“The healthcare bill and cap and trade bill will be two of the most costly bills ever passed.” [Okie]
And just what was the greatest thing since sliced bread, granny?? Hmmmmm????
Ummm.. And just what is that job description you think you know so much about, Granny??
Let’s see it… post a link to your beloved job description for elected representatives…
And dont wimp out on this one….
#
okobserver
Posted October 5, 2009 at 8:49 am | Permalink
These representatives are responsible. Bottom line. Ignorance of the law is no defense. No staffer is ‘responsible’ for what is in the law. You need to go back to what the job description for an elected representative is.
_________________________
I agree. Too bad it’s not happening. our representatives are elected to REPRESENT us. I don’t see that happening.
I don’t know about reading every line and sentence, but they sure as he11 need to understand what’s in a bill before they vote on it.
I mean, if they actually read the legislation, then no CON would be opposed to Health Care Reform bills… LOL
It appears that Chas is demonstrating duh Liberal art of ‘finger pointing’ and ‘name calling’ early this morning.
Perhaps Chas will craft out a ‘Stand the Floor Up’ message later on.
“okobserver” nags –
“We didn’t vote on their staffers and have no idea what their political leanings are. How then can they be responsible for telling our elected officials to vote yes or no on any bill.”
Although I’m sure there are hacks and girlfriends (and girlfriends’ husbands) on staff on some (if not most) congresscritters, I suspect a responsible representative would hire a staff that more or less would approach legislation from the congresscritters’ perspectives.
(I’m not counting on Toad Tiahrt hiring me as an adviser, for example. And don’t call Barney Frank, “okobserver.” He’ll call you. Or not.)
CONs’ righteous faux outrage on this issue presents yet another window into the their arrogance of ignorance.
I’m sure WE Blog posters such as “JimJohnson” would be assuaged if the White House announced, “We’ve got just about everything figured out on Afghanistan, but first the President needs to test the cost/benefits of the 954-bristle push-broom over the 697-bristle push-broom that’ll be needed to sweep out Army Headquarters in Kabul.”
I once read around on the Pizza Hut corporate policy handbook; a couple or three 500-page handbooks. Loose-leaf notebooks you were expected to replace pages as updates came in. The guy who shared it with me was in a battle with his bosses over the lack of an end table or plant in his office.
For all the idealistic platitudes about the “Value of the Marketplace” I hear from CONs, it’s obvious they have no idea how stuff really works.
#
Regular
Posted October 5, 2009 at 8:44 am | Permalink
I agree with GMC, slowing down is not a bad thing. There are few exceptions to the rule that would require the Congress to act in emergency or with all due haste.
Months, years – careful deliberation is best…
__________________________
Any decision should be carefully deliberated. I would think that should include decisions about troop deployment, too.
Yeah, “Regular” –
We all know how morally opposed you are to name-calling.
#
GMC70
Posted October 5, 2009 at 8:21 am | Permalink
But the Read to Vote “proposal would bring government to a standstill,”
Someone want to explain to me how that’s a bad thing?
__________________
GMC70,
That brings to mind the days when they impeached Clinton. Government pretty much ground to a halt. I seem to recall things went pretty well when lawmakers were too busy with a witch hunt to take care of the people’s business.
True XXX, although the ultimate decision for troop deployment is always with the Commander-in-Chief, although the Congress does do the funding.
Anyone who has been in the military and worked in technical fields or fields that require close scrutiny and attention to detail, know about volumes and volumes of regulations that must be read and understood by those military members participating in the administration of said career field.
Or people who deal with volumes of technical manuals who do maintenance on aircraft/weapons systems.
Crafting something new – a new legislation should never be easy. It should be short of being contentious, measured with the ‘pepper’ of spirited discussion.
I imagine the analogy for a legistlative piece of work is much like a plant in that there is a root or causal formation; a grow process that is defined by the parameters of exposure to light and dark; and the leafy results that bear fruit of the final effect.
Which brings us to the IRS and the over complicated Tax Codes that no one really understands. Get rid of it – replace it with a simpler taxing method.
Monkeyhawk
Posted October 5, 2009 at 9:04 am | Permalink
Yeah, “Regular” –
We all know how morally opposed you are to name-calling.
——————-
I always take time out for you, fecal face.
quit fugging writing the bills. or do your fugging job. “hired staff”. fug them too.
bloody, painful revolution.
“bloody, painful revolution.”
How many sane people think this is a solution for anything?
Even if a revolution is needed, do you begin by wanting it to be bloody and painful?
But the Read to Vote “proposal would bring government to a standstill,”
Someone want to explain to me how that’s a bad thing?
—-
Some of you thought I was joking; I wasn’t. In any situation, the first question gov’t should ask is “What happens if we make no changes?” In many, if not most cases, the world will not end; the world will go on, and the cost of legislative intervention and “action” will be greater than inaction – and that doesn’t even figure in the “hidden” costs and unforseen results of policy changes.
Many gov’t actions are driven not by any real need but by political expediency; leaders need to be seen as “doing something” by their constituents. In many if not most cases, the best thing gov’t could do is – nothing.
Simple answer — cap the number of
pages a bill can have, say at 10 pages
or less. Ron Paul’s bill is three pages
and licks the problem just fine. Nest
problem, please.
Chas your ignorance is only outpaced by your arrogance. I know how several staffers have been hired. Most are one or two years out of school. Daddy called in a favor to get them the job. They have political aspirations and this is a good place to start. They want a taste of the DC life. Etc…
When you have nothing but snark to contribute well just don’t contribute.
Chas,
Still looking for the Unemployment Insurance Company office,just in case I need it in the future
GMC–
I’m still waiting for that apology or even a simple admission that you were wrong about your mean-spirited assessment that Obama would use his speech to school-kids to promote his “political agenda.”
He didn’t.
You were wrong.
And now you conveniently have no comment.
Crapon, Who appointed you the truth police?
CapnAmerica,
Waiting for an apology???
You are a walking example of a hypocrite.
When are you going to be man enough to admit that you have broken at least two deals with me, on not attacking each other, and apologize for that?
Nevermind how many other things you have outright lied about here and “conveniently have no comment” about after you were called on it.
Get over yourself.
Oh noes! The Capn got his feelings hurt with GMC’s mean-spirited blah de blah blah blah.
You know, not like the Capn has ever been mean-spirited – just 24/7.
“Nathaniel” starts the day off with a whine.
This bodes ill.
MonkeyHawk,
Your entire presence here bodes ill everyday.
For you, maybe, “Nathaniel” –
I simply share my opinions and, more often than not, quash CON diatribes of memes, cliches, and Repubic Party talking points.
“Know the Truth and the Truth will make you…MAD.
MonkeyHawk,
I can’t even remember the last time you actually offered any opinion free from your usual garbage.
Don’t fool yourself, you don’t make anyone mad. At least not anymore mad than someone would get at an annoying tick on their rear end.
A mere annoyance is all you are. Void of any intelligent thought.
I can’t believe any of us are arguing over this, but we are.
Libs are defending congress for not reading the legislation they are voting on?
Unbelievable.
Responsibility rests with the elected official. As the saying goes – the buck stops there.
But I’ll settle this for all of you.
How about American Way be hired as a staffer for dims and cons to interpret and provide the lawmaker MY interpretation of what the bill says?
heh?
That work for you all?
“an annoying tick on their rear end”
Now that’s a little extreme. That would be annoying.
More like a fly buzzing about the picnic table.
Monkeyhawk I challenge you to go one entire day without posting the word “CONS” and what “CONS” do or are about in your posts. You pretty much do it all the time in response to any post contrary to your own opinion.
Labels don’t get us very far.
” suppose I could ask this of any supporter of this “Pledge,” “How many of the documents we sign or agree to regularly (mortgages, credit card applications, software Terms of Use, even your bank account policies) have you read entirely?”
yes, I do. And it drives them absolutely bonkers, because I also ask questions.
And, these guys need to read the whole dang thing. How many times have we heard “gee, I didn;t know that was in there”.
Reading all 1,427 pages of the Waxman-Markey energy bill would take at least 12 hours. Realize that the House handled 7,441 bills and joint resolutions during the 110th Congress, and you can see the problem”
is very misleading. Few bills are as massive as this one. Besides, anything affecting that large a part of the economy, and every citizen of the country, needs slow reading and careful scrutiny. If they can;t do that, they need smaller bills.
And the whole “”
Nataniel,
MH and I have had our moments here but generally we have a good give and take and I am way more conservative than her. Do you think you might be taking yourself a little too seriously?
I have stated that if I every ran for congress, either at the state (a possibility) or national (never) level, I would find the smartest staff member from both political ideologies to prepare their cases and advise me.
“Nathaniel” admits –
“I can’t even remember the last time….”
Short-term memory loss is a symptom of PTSD.
Check into that.
Upthread, I commented on the thread topic.
I’m not sure what you consider “the usual garbage,” but wild-eyed unspecific snipes at me prove less than nothing.
My mere presence in this forum torments WE Blog CONs.
Those whom I make look foolish either run away, tail between their legs, or keep whining about how their feelings have been hurt by me… though they can’t exactly express why or how.
Freebird1971
Posted October 5, 2009 at 10:45 am | Permalink
Nataniel,
MH and I have had our moments here but generally we have a good give and take and I am way more conservative than her. Do you think you might be taking yourself a little too seriously?
——————-
If I were Nathaniel, I wouldn’t cut MonkeyHock any slack at all.
Especially with all the attacks on Nathaniel’s mother and constantly calling Nathaniel, a Marine combat veteran, “boy.”
Oh no. The church lady is back.
Read the Bill? Democrats don’t read no stinking Bills!
BlueJay
Posted October 5, 2009 at 10:51 am | Permalink
Oh no. The church lady is back.
————–
Yeah and one that could kick your ass up and down the sidewalk all day long and twice on Sundays.
Freebird1971,
MonkeyHawk is not a her.
He has routinely done little more than seek to lie, call names, and generally be as rude as HE can be.
I don’t know what kind of relationship you have with him on this blog, but I don’t take myself to seriously nor do I see how you come to that conclusion.
You might check the posting, but as usual, it was MonkeyHawk who fired the first shot at me here.
Salary for our Congrees people: $174,000
In the U.S 1,928 hours is often used as a standard work year for HR purposes. (includes 20 vacation days in a year ).
That works out to $90.25 an hour we pay our senators.
So a twelve hour read would work out to paying them $1083.
I don’t think that is too much to ask for our highly compensated representatives.
BTW, check out how much we are paying for those “Staffers”. Here is the senate, but you
Find the Representatives costs at the same website:
http://www.legistorm.com/browse_by_senator.html
MonkeyHawk,
Yeah, you “torment” people… like a fly buzzing around at dinner time “torments” someone while they try to eat their dinner.
Who have you ever made look foolish let alone had run away because of it?
“Regular”?
Gimp? I wasn’t referring to you and I KNOW you couldn’t be referring to you.
“Regular” –
“Nathaniel’s” beloved (albeit oft-absent) father calls him “boy.”
Where’s your outrage?
Keep the tencil on the toad,” “Regular.”
I don’t believe I’ve ever said anything ill about “Nathaniel’s” mom. As I recall, she’s deceased.
On the other hand, “Nathaniel’s” step-mom is a quack. A health care charlatan. A purveyor of snake oil whose 2-year junior college level “degree” gets her unlimited Medicare money for providing massages.
Twice the Prices and I have agreed to meet face to face because “HLP” and “Nathaniel” claimed I didn’t “…have the guts to say it face-to-face.” Twice the Prices have backed out at the last minute.
Be careful Nathaniel, Monkeyhawk has been known to spend twenty minutes watching Marines get dressed in the mens lockerroom.
Watch yer backside…
How many in Congress read the “Patriot” act word by word and line by line?
Bills need to be written in language that is enforceable and can be implemented. This is almost a different language than what we are used to. Impacts are not always foreseeable but that’s what we really want to know. Sometimes measures that seem to restrict an action can actually allow it. It takes discussion to understand a bill.
BlueJay
Posted October 5, 2009 at 10:58 am | Permalink
“Regular”?
Gimp? I wasn’t referring to you and I KNOW you couldn’t be referring to you.
—————-
I could mangle you in a New York Minute boy.
1/8th ton, 76 inches of pit bull and size 14 shoes that will kick you from here to middle of next week.
MH,
My apolgies for the gender confusion,damn tencil fell of the toad again
Ha!
And I repeat HA!
#
Freebird1971
Posted October 5, 2009 at 10:45 am | Permalink
Nataniel,
MH and I have had our moments here but generally we have a good give and take and I am way more conservative than her. Do you think you might be taking yourself a little too seriously?
_______________________
Nathan take himself too seriously?
HAHAHAHA!
HEHEHEHEHEHEHE!
HOHOHOHOHO!
Nah, that would never happen.
{Sarcasm off}
Ya’ll have a bad weekend, or what?
BlueJay
Posted October 5, 2009 at 11:00 am | Permalink
How many in Congress read the “Patriot” act word by word and line by line?”
My point, exactly. It should have been thoroughly read, and vetted.
LOL
You are really desperate today MonkeyHawk.
Obviously you must have really missed me because you go right to attacking my mom.
Real classy.
I mean really. One half hearted kick from an old lady…
“I’ve been fallen and I can’t get up!”
#
Regular
Posted October 5, 2009 at 11:01 am | Permalink
I could mangle you in a New York Minute boy.
1/8th ton, 76 inches of pit bull and size 14 shoes that will kick you from here to middle of next week.
____________________
Oh, brother…….
American_Way
Posted October 5, 2009 at 10:55 am | Permalink
Salary for our Congrees people: $174,000
——————————————-
And that doesnt include their health care,speaking fees, taxpayer funded junkets, and am pretty sure they get a hefty travel allowance.
BlueJay
Posted October 5, 2009 at 11:05 am | Permalink
I mean really. One half hearted kick from an old lady…
“I’ve been fallen and I can’t get up!”
——————-
There’s a reason they don’t put flyweights in with heavyweights in boxing and wrestling.
Right midget boy?
If they had to read the budget bill before voting on it, it would takey years. Stupid idea. Mccain has always presented a synopsis to members about his bills/ammendments because even he knows nobody has time to read everything.
It’s just a red herring anything to delay.
Watch out folks! He’s got a mean right quad cane! And make sure you approach from upwind!
Didn’t think of all those perks Freebird. Who knows how much those amount to. But is it any wonder they don’t have time to actually read legislation?
Too busy making money!
Or in BlueJays case, cowardly drive by…
I bet tiahrt an moran never read the medicare part d bill before voting on it. Some enterprising young staff reporter should ask them.
I don’t think we need a pledge or requirement to read all legislation.
What we need, is for the Democrats to give both the American people and everyone in Congress enough time to not only read the legislation, but to study it.
This entire issue has come about because of the tactics the Democrats have been using in shoving legislation down everyones throats before anyone can even look at it let alone read it.
Nathan I think you are voicing the concerns of most Americans.
Perhaps the right could be accommodated by writing legislation to contain words of two syllables or less, whoosh noises, grunts, and the occasional fart.
What’s even dumber is that any legislation passed on Health Care reform, won’t take effect until 2013.
So, what is the freaking rush?
Everyone knows what the rush is, it’s political spin and gamemanship by the Crats. That’s all it ever was.
Not one bit of service to the American people, it’s strictly self-serving, political survival by the career, Crat politician.
HR 3200 has been online for months. Has anyone here read every page?
I do not only want my representatives to read the legislation or at least understand it with their staff.
I want to also be given a reasonable amount of time to review the legislation and look at it as well.
Isn’t that what the Democrats promised us?
Transparency?
DavidB,
You mean the legislation that everytime we do comment on it, we are told that it is not the actual bill or the one which will be passed?
The one that Obama contradicted some 20 times in his address to Congres?
That legislation? Yeah, we have been reading it.
I don’t see Nathan or American way answering whether they read all of hr3200! All hat, no cattle.
Phantom, its not my job to read the legislation and vote on it.
Nice try. No cigar.
Phantom,
You might wait more than 3 minutes after the question is asked to start attacking people for not answering it.
I don’t Phantom cleared his post with the SBR.
Sen. Thomas Carper (D.-Del.), a member of the Senate Finance Committee, told CNSNews.com that he does not “expect” to read the actual legislative language of the committee’s health care bill because it is “confusing” and that anyone who claims they are going to read it and understand it is fooling people.
“I don’t expect to actually read the legislative language because reading the legislative language is among the more confusing things I’ve ever read in my life,”
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/54930
During his speech at a National Press Club luncheon, House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich.), questioned the point of lawmakers reading the health care bill.
“I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill,’” said Conyers.
“What good is reading the bill if it’s a thousand pages and you don’t have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?”
Maybe what congress needs is an editor with a deskfull of blue pencils. A bill that goes on and on for 1,427 pages is just plain overwritten and overcomplicated. A really good editor could cut it down to less than a hundred. You’re writing laws here folks, you don’t need to be Tolstoy!
A bill that goes on and on for 1,427 pages is just plain overwritten and overcomplicated.
=================================
Clearly Jed is a racist by his own standards..
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/10/late-night-laughs-32/#comment-676166
Jed-
Good point. Unfortunately, they really don;t want plain language. Too easy to be found out. They prefer language such as
“In 10crfr20, in the second paragraph of section a, paragraph 12, replace the word pharmacy with the word storefront, which is define by 10crfr20 23.56 and replaces it in all examples throughout”
Not an actual example. But one that I have seen the likes of when you read the darn bills. It would simply be easier to post the “Before” and “after of the revision, or use plain language, but that doesn;t provide cover for them, or jobs for their buddy lawyers.
Ant,
You’re making even less sense that usual. Take your meds!
I doubt that legal document like a congressional bill is not verbiage you can whittle down to Hemingway-like prose.
American_Way
Posted October 5, 2009 at 10:55 am | Permalink
Salary for our Congrees people: $174,000
In the U.S 1,928 hours is often used as a standard work year for HR purposes. (includes 20 vacation days in a year ).
That works out to $90.25 an hour we pay our senators.
So a twelve hour read would work out to paying them $1083.
===============================================
It would be interesting if Congress had to actually punch a clock and itemize their work, like much of working America has to do.
Their Productivity stats should be visible to all. Transparency would be nice.
Congress is actually in session only 121 days in 2009.
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/ds/h1111.html
Assuming Congressmen actually work 8 hours during those 121 days in Session, then that $174,000 salary (divided by 968 hours in session) equates to $179.75 per hour.
Now please tell me just what those Congressmen are duing those other 244 days of the year when they are Not in Session.
So during those 244 days out of Session, do they not have any time to Read Bills?
lj,
I would certainly tend to agree with you, except that every occupation develops its own dialect. Doctors do, architects do, even stevedores. It’s for talking with each other, not the general public. The problems come about when the dialect is used to obfuscate rather than clarify an issue. When we’re talking about laws, the general public ought to be able to understand what they’re meant to obey. They should be translated before they’re edited and read by all of us before they’re passed. The Bauhaus had a saying that “less is more.” It couldn’t be more applicable than in legislation!
The problem is the government was not supposed to micro manage with bills of such intricate details! Look at the Constitution for crying out loud!
Read “Common Sense” the pamphlet that won over the hearts and minds of the colonists to proceed with the revolution. Thomas Payne’s entire logic was that the monarch’s of Europe had too much power, and that power will corrupt the BEST of people. He also highlights the “help” these rulers dangle over the masses to keep that power as the problem. A people cannot give a government the ability to help them without giving them P O W E R…. and of course power always corrupts.
I feel sorry for the politicians in Washington DC in some regards. They may be sent there by their community and go with the BEST of intentions, but the constant cry of “DO SOMETHING, OH MY GOD, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT XXX, OR XXXOOO, OR …..”
The concept of a “Republic” our fouding fathers insisted on was really a PROTECTION for elected officials, whether or not it was meant to be I don’t know. But a limited government of democratically elected servants bound TIGHTLY by the laws of a Repulic enable them to say “We can’t, it’s up to YOU.” “We do not have the power, however YOU DO!”
The last President to really understand this was ironically a Democrat, Grover Cleveland. In 1887 a severe drought wiped out the farmers in Texas, crys for “help” came and the Congress knowing they needed the votes were right there to help. Here was his response. “I feel obligated to withhold my approval of the plan, as proposed by this bill, to indulge a benevolent and charitable sentiment throught the appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the General Government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering with is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit. A prevalent tendence to disregard the limited mission of this power and duty should, I think, be steadfastly resisted, to the end that the lesson should be sonstantly enforced that though THE PEOPLE SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT SUPPORT THE PEOPLE. The friendliness and charity of our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow citizens in misfortune. This has been repeatedly and quite lately demonstrated. Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of paternal care on the part of the Government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of that kindly sentiment and conduct which stregnthens the bonds of a common brotherhood.”
The people of America at that time put together their OWN aid package that exceeded anything the government could have dreamed of doing.
It’s in our DNA, from the very 1st pilgrams. They were not political people at all, but they did set up a “socialist” type of structure at first, everything went into one big pot and the individuals took what they needed as they needed it. Naive to think that could work, but they were good old fashioned pure Christians. Well, they all almost died. Once they changed over to a more capitolist approach, they flourished. You keep what you product and trade with it for what you don’t have.
Their was a corn shortage in early America, many people had no stores. Again, the crys for help came, and the Congress of that time were ready to jump on it (as is their nature… the ability to help is power). Ben Franklin exploded in fury! He said they could live without corn, they could boil roots and tough it out, their are other things to eat, the early United States is not going to buy corn from other countries and distribute it! He said the best way to insure they would be prepared next time is to let them do without now! Their were other shortages later, but most people had store reserves just in case.
The problem in modern day America is that WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE ARE ANYMORE! Maybe we are not what we were supposed to be would describe that better. Thank God for Barrack Obama though, he’s caused many of us to dig around a little and research just where we came from. The system set up by our founding fathers shot us into the stratosphere globally, while the semi-socialist heavy government nations have never really had it that good. Thus their always has, and always will be a certain level of resentment towards us. That resentment is a badge of honor, not something to apologize for.
Semp,
It might be a slightly niggling point, but power doesn’t corrupt; power simply attracts the corruptible.
“I doubt that legal document like a congressional bill is not verbiage you can whittle down to Hemingway-like prose.”
Nobody said anything of the kind. However, you can make it able to be understood, which according to some members of Congress it is not. Vast difference between cannot be understood and Heminway-like prose. But you knew that already, didn;t you.
Back to the subject at hand, why is Congress even dealing with an issue that is by all aspects a state issue? The federal government does not need to do the Governor’s jobs. Every individual state has the ability to open up their state to more insurance companies, to allow for more competetion, more products to be offered.
Their will still be people who fall through the cracks, and yes, we do need to help the helpless, even on a governmental level, which pains me to admit, because that’s a 180 degrees against what our founding fathers though. See, even a guy like me is a bit jaded by modern day politics and expectations of the government.
But we need to get health care costs DOWN, it will save the government bodies money when they do help those who need it. Here is one example. Family A has an insurance bill of $780/mo through their employer. With NO reform passed, in some states, they can opt out of all the detailed coverage, and just get a policy that kicks in after a $10,000 deductible is met. They make pretty good money, could throw emeregency medical bills on a credit card if needed, and only pay $310-$350/mo for the same coverage, and bank some of that savings in a medical savings account, over time and not incure debt when they need medical care. They can “shop” their doctors (I do that now, just because I’m that kinda guy) and that would drive prices down because doctors and medical facilities would be facing competetion. If I don’t want an An@l probe covered, save that money, and pay it out of pocket, that’s my business, but most states REQUIRE certain procedures be covered.
Not everybody can afford to be exposed for that $10k, so if the state governments are going to do something, perhaps they can issue them a medical card providing them the credit and let them pay it back over time interest free. Work out package deals with insurance companies to cover those families for a couple hundred per month, and allow tax credits for those companies so they can afford to do so, NOT subsidies or direct payments from the govt.
Now let’s factor in tort reform, lowers costs for everyone! Allow competetion from more companies, and more flexible coverages. Provide tax incentives for providing charitable care and pharmacuticals donated. We can boil this problem down to maybe 4-5 million people who still fall through the cracks, THEN TACKLE THAT PROBLEM! Stop treating the symptoms and cure the disease!
“Back to the subject at hand”
That was the subject at hand? I thought the thread lead was about complicated hard-to-read legislation at the federal level.
And SemperFiGuy, were you an officer? You use too many big words for any enlisted Marine. Very wordy too.
No offense. Just curious.
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 8:55 am | Permalink
Ummm.. And just what is that job description you think you know so much about, Granny??
Let’s see it… post a link to your beloved job description for elected representatives…
And dont wimp out on this one….
============================================
Well, I see that Granny Witch has wimped out on providing a job description for elected representatives… WTG Granny!!! I knew you would only come back with your usual criticism…. Why dont you ever try and defend your dumb posts??? Why do you always try to blame me, or some other liberal for your own stupidity???
So, now, lets see you post a job description for our representatives… And provide a link for same…. Do you think you can handle that, or will you just resort to your usual name calling that you do when you cant respond reasonably???
SO, LET’S SEE YOUR BELOVED JOB DESCRIPTION!!!
DAMN, HOW DUMB DOES SHE GET???
“A bill that goes on and on for 1,427 pages is just plain overwritten ”
It reminds of the King’s criticism of Mozarts concert in the movie “Amadeus.”
“It has too many notes.” the King says.
Mozart replies, ‘It has neither too many or too few notes. It has exactly the number of notes it needs.”
Who, exactly says they cannot understand HR3200? I know Todd Tiahrt has had some comprehension problems. He said in a weaselly fashion, “I don’t see anything in this bill that prevents illegal aliens from getting government benefits.”
I don’t see anything about preventing Martians from getting it either…
David,
It doesn’t need to be, nor should it be “Hemminway like” to be clearly written. I would prefer that it be understandable to any reasonably literate person, butI would settle for a black-box warning on pending bills such as “Alert! This Legislation May Adversely/Fatally Interact With Current Civil Rights Legislation And/Or our Constitution.”
Chas,
Witches are not real. A pastor shouldn’t believe in such things.
ANTI
Who, exactly says they cannot understand HR3200?
=============================
Several Dems come to mind. I think they have been pointed out to you already, DavidB.
iS h.r. 3200 on the House Floor yet?? If so, when is the voted scheduled??
correction: when is the vote scheduled??
Oh, I really really want some of that fine cheap New Jersey health insurance!
This “more commercial competition” is a non-starter.
Let’s pile more marketing and advertising costs onto the national health care tab by having thousands of policies marketed to all fifty states and Puerto Rico! Let’s make states increase their Insurance Commissioner’s staff so they can keep up with it, too.
We already pay 2X or more per capita that most of the civilized world. Let’s crank that up with more costs that DO NOT contribute to better care.
Semper Fi Guy.. I assume you are cared for by the government-run single payer VA system, no??
“So, now, lets see you post a job description for our representatives… And provide a link for same….”
Article I – The Legislative Branch
Section 1 – The Legislature
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
Section 2 – The House
The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.
No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.
(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five and Georgia three.
When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.
The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.
Section 3 – The Senate
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, (chosen by the Legislature thereof,) (The preceding words in parentheses superseded by 17th Amendment, section 1.) for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.
Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; (and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.) (The preceding words in parentheses were superseded by the 17th Amendment, section 2.)
No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.
The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.
The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.
The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Section 4 – Elections, Meetings
The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing Senators.
The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall (be on the first Monday in December,) (The preceding words in parentheses were superseded by the 20th Amendment, section 2.) unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.
Section 5 – Membership, Rules, Journals, Adjournment
Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member.
Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.
Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.
Section 6 – Compensation
(The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States.) (The preceding words in parentheses were modified by the 27th Amendment.) They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.
No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.
Section 7 – Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.
Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.
Section 8 – Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Section 9 – Limits on Congress
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)
No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.
No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.
No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.
Link:
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec1
Ant,
“Witches are not real.”
Gee, now I’ll have to tell the half-dozen or so that I know that they aren’t real! I somehow doubt they’ll believe me though. Of course they wouldn’t even consider allowing someone like Granny into their coven.
Gee, now I’ll have to tell the half-dozen or so that I know that they aren’t real! I somehow doubt they’ll believe me though.-Jed
===============================
Tell the Leprechauns as well as the unicorns, Jed.
So this the health bill not only needs to reform health care, but it needs to meet a new made-up standard of readability now?
College-level readability? High school? 3rd grade? Or do we just let the bill be written the way all bills are written and stop this cheap political pandering…
It’s written in legalese as it must be. It can be interpreted into simple, conversational English, but then you have liars and opponents making up “Death Panels” and phony claims of rationing.
Amendment 29: The Congress will hire hundreds of Staffers, at great tax payer expense to read for them.
Each member is entitled to his own apportionment of slave staff laborers. These Staff members may serve as the members of the “Blame Game”, and will provide political cover for the elected congress whenever possible.. The Staff is also responsible for being responsive to the constituents, because the congress people are much too busy on vacation, flying around the world, and giving paid speeches for pursuit of the career campaign funds. “Staff shall deflect any citizens attempting to communicate with the elected.”
“It’s written in legalese as it must be. ”
That’s BS David. Pure and simnple BS.
The Bible says we are not to suffer a witch to live. So either there ARE witches or the Christians exterminated them all.
And we did meet the man who blessed Sarah Palin and he was credited with exposing a witch and running her out of her village.
…he was credited with exposing a witch and running her out of her village.
==================================
I wouldn’t trust a Kenyan.
LOL!! Okay. Pure and simnple: it’s tencils on a toad, whether you like it or lump it!
David,
I’ve known a number of Wiccans from as far back as the late 1950’s. They were all good people whose religion has been persecuted and viciously maligned for centuries, for no other reason than itwasn’t christian. I currently know about half a dozen practicing Wiccans. You probably know at least one too, they just haven’t told you they’re Wiccan.
“I wouldn’t trust a Kenyan.”
And I wouldn’t ever trust an anti. They’re all religious freaks of nature.
The English version of the Bible is written in easy to understand language and not in legalese.. and you see how easy that is for everybody to understand in the same way… whahhahahahaaa
“Section 7 – Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto”
Do we have a budget for this year yet.
Oh wait, that would just be another bill they would not have to read.
Of course, as long as they do not read it, there will be no earmarks.
They were all good people whose religion has been persecuted and viciously maligned for centuries, for no other reason than itwasn’t christian.-Jed
============================================
The Christian Pastor Chas has a considerable hatred for your witches, Jed.
I just hope he doesn’t fly off the handle and throw water on one of them.
Jed –
Wander out to First UUA on E. 21st St., and you might meet more Wiccans… Really neat people…
“The Christian Pastor Chas has a considerable hatred for your witches, Jed.” [anti]
Once again, Anti proves he/she is a LIAR, with little or no conscience…
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492
It is clear Chas has a hatred for witches and the Wiccan religion, obviously he thinks they are incapable of thought and much like and earthworm.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/10/reading-every-bill-harder-than-it-sounds/#comment-676213
Sick Chas, just sick.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/215291
Anti,
Be careful Chas is in good with the SBR and you could be subjected to becoming a lower tier blogger
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/
Chas,
The Ant has proved itself a propagandist may times before. It’s no news.
By the way, I’ve wandered that way too; some of their Wiccans are some of mine.
Thats neat Jed….
ANTI — That blog link you posted doesnt say ONE WORD about Wiccans… NOT ONE WORD… Filthy LIAR!!!
All of these little burdens…gone!
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE59446N20091005
Freebird, ANTI would have to do a LOT of climbing to become a lower tier blogger… LOL
Jed, did you attend the Remembance Service at First UUA, after that Knoxville, TN, church shooting?? Just wondering…
Chas
I’m still looking for the Unemployment Insurance Company
You people…nice.
Really?
“Liar, liar pants on fire?”
Really?
Pleef,
Yor article failed to mention grandpa Prescott Bush and his partner George Herbert Walker, who were caught financing the German war machine well into WWII. I suppose if they hadn’t been quite so rich, they would have been hanged as traitors.
Chas,
Yes.
Freebird1971
Posted October 5, 2009 at 1:44 pm | Permalink
Anti,
Be careful Chas is in good with the SBR and you could be subjected to becoming a lower tier blogger
======================================
Freebird,
Just to be clear concerning Chas,
I don’t give a schitt.
;)
Freebird —
Try, http://www.kansas.gov
The State acts as the “company” — Collects premiums, and sets benefits… like any other insurance “company”
Jed, in that case, we have either MET, or you have at least seen me. I was one of the participants in that Service. :-))
Chas is as easy to lasso as an alfalfa bale with a black plastic steer’s head. He don’t move too fast…
Yes, Chas was dropping hot candle wax on the virgin nipples sacrifices.
That would be correct, Anti… At least in the past 5-6 years…
Chas
Posted October 2, 2009 at 11:43 am | Permalink
Freebird1971
Posted October 2, 2009 at 11:26 am | Permalink
Chas,
UI is controlled by the government
===============================================
Would you please show PROOF of that statement?? U I is required of employers… but the Insurance is between a client and an insurance company…
PROOF please??
==============================================
your words not mine
reggie,
You’ve been watching too many B horror movies.
your words not mine
Good luck with that Free.
BTW, how many days brother?
So far if my math is correct almost 20 months but so far it’s just today
Jed, I’m not sure about the horror movies.. But sounds like Reg likes parts of Anton Levey’s books… :-))
Freebird1971
Posted October 5, 2009 at 2:09 pm | Permalink
So far if my math is correct almost 20 months but so far it’s just today
============================
Keep it up!
Freebird, FWIW, i’ve been working with AA groups for over 25 years… One thing that isnt terribly good is a lot of negativity… Sorry to say, you have/show a lot of negativity on this Blog… You talked with any of your sponsors about that lately??
Just sayin….
Don’t be an ass hole Chas.
What Chas meant to say is a lot of negativity towards stubborn, ignorant people like Libs.
That’s what he meant Freebird. :D
Actually, Reg., I meant negativity about anything… But do try again…
Reg, why would you want to put political spin on something as serious as AA, and/or sponsors?? Talk about not nice… Geez!!
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 2:19 pm | Permalink
Actually, Reg., I meant negativity about anything… But do try again…
——————–
So if the GORACLE crapped on your shoes, raped your daughters and pizzed on your car seat, there would be nothing negative you would say?
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 2:21 pm | Permalink
Reg, why would you want to put political spin on something as serious as AA, and/or sponsors?? Talk about not nice… Geez!!
—————–
No Chas,
What is not nice to keep holding the ‘AA’ thing above someone’s head and treating them like a leper or some lesser person that needs constant supervision.
Freebird is an equal human being, he doesn’t need to be lectured or advised on a blog everytime he writes something.
Go tend your own flock.
I dont recall lecturing Freebird about anything related to AA about anything he/she has posted here… I merely stated an observation…
You all have a nice afternoon… It’s a pretty day where I am… time to enjoy it…
Later!!
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 2:27 pm | Permalink
I dont recall lecturing Freebird about anything related to AA about anything he/she has posted here… I merely stated an observation…
—————-
Yeah, I bet you advise Black people to lay off the fat back and bbq ribs as well, so they won’t be so uppity in a discussion because their high blood pressure might be seen as negative.
So far if my math is correct almost 20 months but so far it’s just today
Outstanding brother. Congratulations on both your accomplishment and your attitude. You got this hitcb whooped.
Please please please disregard the faux preacher.
This idiot will lie when the truth will serve him better.
___________________________________________________
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 2:27 pm | Permalink
I dont recall lecturing Freebird about anything related to AA about anything he/she has posted here…
___________________________________________________
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 2:13 pm | Permalink
Freebird, FWIW, i’ve been working with AA groups for over 25 years…
[snip]
You talked with any of your sponsors about that lately??
Just sayin….
THE TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Copyright A.A. World Services, Inc.
http://www.aa.org
Chas,
The Wiccans I’ve known have absolutely no use for LeVey or his mentor Aleister Crowley either. As they say, their religion was around for a long time before Satan and his fellow christians showed up.
Right Jed… I agree… Levey is/was a total fraud…
Wiccans are like any other group of people. Some of them are great, some of them are just hardasses. I have known both types.
In fact, much of Levey’s writings were gleaned from H. G. Wells’ novel, “The Island of Dr. Moreau”
“Satan and his fellow christians showed up.”
Couldn;t resist, eh Jed?
Pretty hard to be a hardass Wiccan, given that they dont embrace any single Holy Book, or Creed….
This sounds like a good Democratic Representative who DOES read the Bills.
You can tell he reads the bills from the very answers he provides. All Congressmen should Read The Bills!!!
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/god-and-country/2009/10/02/bart-stupak-leader-of-antiabortion-democrats-not-very-confident-on-healthcare.html
How does the president feel about your stance that no government subsidized health insurance plan should include abortion coverage?
I brought up the fact that when he spoke to the nation on September 9 he said, “Let me verify one more rumor, that there will be no public funding for abortion.” And so I asked him to clarify that because it’s sort of the opposite of H.R. 3200 [the House healthcare bill]. And he indicated to me that yes, he understands that and when he talked about that line [in his speech] he said “my plan.” But the president has not put forth a plan, so it wasn’t really clear.
And so my question was, was he just reading H.R. 3200 and was he not briefed on the Capps Amendment [on abortion coverage], and he said, “No, no, I know the Capps Amendment.”
————
So how confident are you that you’ll be able to support the final healthcare reform package?
I’ve always said if you give me my amendment on Hyde and have a straight-up vote on the floor, then I’ll move to the merits of the bill. And if I move the merits of the bill, I’m still concerned about the lack of competition within the insurance industry with the way 3200 is written.
I’m also concerned that our quality amendments are going to be stripped by the time it gets to the floor, and if that’s the case then it’s very hard for me to vote for this legislation, even if I had all the language I wanted [on abortion].
Here’s another Democrat who likes to have time to READ the Bills:
“There’s a pattern here, the more important the bill, the more complicated it is, the less time we have to read it,” said Baird, who says he has read every page of the health-care legislation. “And that’s happened under Democratic control and Republican control.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/02/AR2009100203807.html
Yes there is a Pattern of Gestapo-Like Deceptive Tactics by the Obama Administration in Pushing Through BAD BILLS
Transparency? Oh He11 No!
“Nobody could read this bill in 72 hours and understand it,” said Rep. John Yarmuth (D-Ky.), referring to the three-day period to peruse legislation that some public interest groups say could help keep Congress accountable.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/02/AR2009100203807.html
Ok Democrats, if you want more time to Read the Bills, then ALLOW MORE TIME TO READ THE BILLS!
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 3:10 pm | Permalink
Pretty hard to be a hardass Wiccan, given that they dont embrace any single Holy Book, or Creed….
Not at all Chas–it’s their basic personality. There are atheists that don;t embrace any Holy Book or Creed, that are good people, and that are hardasses.
I wish you all would declare what tier you are on. I need to know whom to thumb my nose at.
And can someone please tell me who the Supreme Blog Ruler is?
“Realize that the House handled 7,441 bills and joint resolutions during the 110th Congress, and you can see the problem, especially if legislators also are expected to go to hearings, meet with constituents, help craft bills and conduct other business.”
A solution would be then, to pass fewer Bills. Government has regulated us to death already!
Why not stress Quality over Quantity?
Why not cut out the phony BS Resolution Bills?
Why not write the Bills Clearly and Concisely?
Why not keep the scope of Government regulation limited to its Constitutional boundaries?
Government is trying to do to much, trying to solve every problem with a stroke of a pen, when it can’t and it shouldn’t.
Every time you turn around, there’s a Bible of Regulation to wade through. Even for something as simple as 4.58 MB of hunting regulations:
http://www.kdwp.state.ks.us/news/Hunting/Hunting-Regulations
Hunt this
Don’t hunt that
Can you read the Sign?
lj,
“Couldn;t resist, eh Jed?”
Just quoting Wiccans. They aren’t satanists and are tired of being told they are. They consider Satan to be a christian deity, certainly not one of theirs!
Nathaniel
Posted October 5, 2009 at 11:21 am | Permalink
This entire issue has come about because of the tactics the Democrats have been using in shoving legislation down everyones throats before anyone can even look at it let alone read it.
———————————————
That’s exactly what Democrat Rep Baird said, per the link at the 3:16 post.
Jed-
Okay, I missed the “as they say” Sorry about that.
Chas,
“Right Jed… I agree… Levey is/was a total fraud…”
Interestingly enough, LaVey, who died about 12 years ago, would have probably publicly agreed with you.
lj,
“Sorry about that”
Accepted.
Jed,
I’d try, convict and hang ALL of the Bushes for treason today, if I had the court. You go back 2,3,4 or so years back in the archives here and you’ll see that I’ve brought up bad history on all of these cretins. Bush, Clinton, Obama…all the same to me.
American_Way
Posted October 5, 2009 at 11:46 am | Permalink
Sen. Thomas Carper (D.-Del.), a member of the Senate Finance Committee, told CNSNews.com that he does not “expect” to read the actual legislative language of the committee’s health care bill because it is “confusing” and that anyone who claims they are going to read it and understand it is fooling people.
“I don’t expect to actually read the legislative language because reading the legislative language is among the more confusing things I’ve ever read in my life,”
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/54930
——————————————–
I hope this quote is used in campaign advertising. Hey maybe Carper will brag about Not Reading any Bill he voted for.
Why would anyone vote FOR this incompetent, and arrogant i d i o t ?
American_Way
Posted October 5, 2009 at 11:49 am | Permalink
During his speech at a National Press Club luncheon, House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich.), questioned the point of lawmakers reading the health care bill.
“I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill,’” said Conyers.
“What good is reading the bill if it’s a thousand pages and you don’t have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?”
————————————————————————
And who would vote for Conyers?
Can’t wait to see the campaign ads for him, and against him.
Conyers can brag about not understanding a single Bill he vote for!
You want transparency and honesty in government, and then you howl at Conyers… Hey, at least he is HONEST in what he says…
Jed — IF you have a throw-away email address, I will send you a pic to refresh your memory as to which participant I was at the TN. Church shooting Remembrance service… Let me know, ok??
AmWay, in spite of your lengthy cut/paste out of the Constitution, I saw nothing anywhere about Representatives in Congress being REQUIRED to read each line of legislation that comes before them…
So, what was your point??
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 4:18 pm | Permalink
You want transparency and honesty in government, and then you howl at Conyers… Hey, at least he is HONEST in what he says…
—————————–
Yeah, somebody posted that the other day, it is refreshing when a US Representative is Honest about their Incompetence.
And I REPEAT again: EACH one of our Representatives and Senators have capable staff people who are quite skilled in reading legislation, and putting it before the representatives, with the facts, and/or talking points all laid out… And furthermore, all Bills ARE made available to the general public, for those who want to take the time to read them… So, I fail to see what all the snarking is about, except just one more stupid, small minded diversion from the FACT that we WILL have health care reform, whether the RIGHT WING and REPUBLICANS and CONS like it or not… It is going to be REALITY… Get used to it… DEAL with it… If it turns into a tragedy, THEN tell everybody you told them so….
If you dont like it, TOUGH!!!
Why are you always trying to make the Gestapo look good?
View this and consider your sin against the victims of the holocaust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEXuviihrrs&feature=player_embedded
DavidB,
Did the government teach you to play the violin too?
Chas doesn’t actually write his own sermons.
He has a staff that writes sermons for him.
Chas doesn’t even understand the sermons he reads.
He does trust his staffers to do his job for him though.
The US Representatives are just Political Figureheads.
The Staff actually does the work of the Representative, and pulls the puppet strings of the Reps.
Same for Obama. He’s just a Political Figurehead reading a teleprompter. There should be a disclosure for every speech he makes:
“The content of this speech was written by staffers, and thus the content does not necessarily represent the views of Barack Obama.”
The US Representatives are just Political Figureheads.
The Staff actually does the work of the Representative, and pulls the puppet strings of the Reps.
Same for Obama. He’s just a Political Figurehead reading a teleprompter. There should be a disclosure for every speech he makes:
“The content of this speech was written by staffers, and thus the content does not necessarily represent the views of Barack Obama.”
The US Representatives are just Political Figureheads.
The Staff actually does the work of the Representative, and pulls the puppet strings of the Reps.
Same for Obama. He’s just a Political Figurehead reading a teleprompter. There should be a disclosure for every speech he makes:
“The content of this speech was written by staffers, and thus the content does not necessarily represent the views of Barack Obama.”
I dont have a stff member CAPABLE of writing a Sermon… And, BTW, Johnson, this thread isnt about WRITING anything… It IS about reading… capiche???
Right Chas.
The Representatives obviously don’t write the Bills either.
Johnson, I dont have a staff person capable of writing a Sermon… BUT, idiot, we are talking about READING here… not writing… and in case you might have forgotten, Sermons are not for reading… they are for HEARING… Dumba**
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 5:19 pm | Permalink
I dont have a stff member CAPABLE of writing a Sermon…
—————————-
If you did have a staff member writing your sermons, then your congregation might as well hear the staff member read it.
JimJohnson
Posted October 5, 2009 at 5:28 pm | Permalink
Right Chas.
The Representatives obviously don’t write the Bills either.
===========================================
ok, IDIOT… WHY dont YOU go to D. C., and YOU volunteer to write Legislation???
Oooops… I forgot, you need a fully functioning brain to do that… So sorry, Johnson, you dont qualify!!
“Semper Fi Guy.. I assume you are cared for by the government-run single payer VA system, no??”
NOPE, I’ve got my very own insurance that I pay for. The Marines and Sailors get top notch care once they get to a level where it’s uniformed service members providing the care, but the lower level functionary doctors and staff suck.
The superior performance of Navy Doctors does not reflect what nationalized healthcare would be like, because a civilian doc isn’t going to go about his job with the same level of team spirit that a fellow member of the armed services would. They can’t. It’s a sausage factory, churn ‘em in, churn ‘em out.
You had to be hospitolized in a Naval hospitol to get the good care, the clinics were terrible. HOWEVER, even that wasn’t the end of the world, because your dealing with all young men and women who are in their prime. Not the same as a govt run hospitol in the civilian world.
As for the person who asked if I was an officer, well, if I was, my terrible spelling and grammer would be even more embarassing I guess.
Every one of them has aides and volunteers that can read parts of each bill and summarize them for the lawmaker. There is no excuse for not knowing what is in a bill you vote for.
Of course, that’s what lobbyists are for too. Its also the job of Americans to read and know what is in the bill so you can call or tweet your lawmakers before they vote. They DO listen.
Military care is still better than no care. I will agree there are a lot of things that need to be fixed in the VA system, but WE have to demand those changes.
Those changes would be made faster if more people were part of it and vocalizing what needs to change.
By the way.. the Republican “Defund ACORN Bill” threatens to defund all major military suppliers.
What do you think? Did they READ THE BILL?
Chas
Posted October 5, 2009 at 2:13 pm | Permalink
Freebird, FWIW, i’ve been working with AA groups for over 25 years… One thing that isnt terribly good is a lot of negativity… Sorry to say, you have/show a lot of negativity on this Blog… You talked with any of your sponsors about that lately??
Just sayin….
———————————————-
Step 10 is personal inventory,not others. Wolrking 25 years with us is not even close to being one of us.
Just sayin…
FWIW, Chas has never lectured me about AA that I can recall
but he has a point! imho
Without question he does. This is not a healthy place to be for those who want to work on their resentments. Just saying. A big reason why I spend less time here than before.
…should I say, “a genuine desire to work on their resentments.” Some people say they do, but they surely do not as reflected by their actions (which always speak louder than words).
No they don’t have time to read every bill. The fact that there are so many bills and they are so huge does say something about what is wrong with Congress, of course. Maybe if they would just take the time to read the Declaration of Independence and Constitution from time to time they would get the guidance they need to find the proper role of Congress and the government.
For Kansas state legislation from Topeka, there’s a good website where they do read all the bills… http://www.kansasvotes.org. Good summaries of every bill introduced, a tracking of every bill’s progress through the process, and an easy click to get every recorded vote that each legislator makes. It has lots of other neat features that let you follow any issue.