Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius was asked by the Washington Post whether there should be some federal funding of abortions. “The president has made it pretty clear that Congress and the new health insurance plan will not provide federal funds for abortions,” Sebelius said. She also was asked what she thought about the archbishop of Kansas City, Kan., having told her when she was Kansas governor that she shouldn’t take communion because she was a pro-choice politician. “Well, it was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced in my life,” Sebelius said. “I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state, and I feel that my actions as a parishioner are different than my actions as a public official and that the people who elected me in Kansas had a right to expect me to uphold their rights and their beliefs even if they did not have the same religious beliefs that I had. And that’s what I did: I took an oath of office and I have taken an oath of office in this job and will uphold the law.”
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101 Comments
The ‘old gray mare’ believes in those rape and scrapes that were ran by her deceased buddy Tiller – right down to the last nickle of filtered campaign funds.
I feel that my actions as a parishioner are different than my actions as a public official…
Well of course they are ‘old gray mare’. After all, everyone expects Democrats to have two-faces. One at the Church – crossing themselves – saying ‘Hail Mary’s’ and then with the political face – putting on the Pirate hat to spit lies, curse and kick puppies into the meat grinder so the poor people can eat.
Sebelius’s actual title is “Secretary of Abortion and Euthanasia”.
Sebelius said. “I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state, and I feel that my actions as a parishioner are different than my actions as a public official.
WTF is that suppose to mean? Is your Catholic faith something you keep on a shelf and only take down when it doesn’t interfere with your real religion of “Progressive Secularism”.
No Chris, it means that she doesn’t shove her religious beliefs down the throats of others and abides by the constitution. YOUR bible is not our constitution.
A woman’s right to her own body decisions is a fundamental right.
There is no reason why public funds should not pay for women’s health care services. Women have a right to choose whether some nosybodies like it or not.
Sebelius’ positions seem to provide a great deal of convenience when it comes to fund raising for office.
Abortion services for health of the mother SHOULD BE COVERED. Take away coverage for viagra and other annoying male problems, like prostate trouble.
They don’t even affect health. Pregnancy DOES.
“Is your Catholic faith something you keep on a shelf …”
It should be. A public official must never let their religious beliefs interfere with their public duties.
All people have priorities in their lives. Some are aware of them, work on them and try to live their lives with a set of priorities based on principals.
Sebelius has a carefully thought out set of priorities that has placed her religious beliefs and her faith below her political ambitions.
Many politicians that are pro-life have no problem ‘upholding the law’ while at the same time working to change the law based on their principals and beliefs.
They should not be forcing their religious beliefs on the masses. Its in the very first amendment. Freedom of religion.
Evilbible.com…gosh just imagine if we had to live by the bible.
Christian taliban baby…
Yo PMama, we get it.
You despise anything that is Christian or has to do with churches.
(sigh)
Nobody’s against your religious devotion, “Regular,” but religion and this constitutional republic are supposed to be mutually irrelevant.
Political_mama
Posted September 16, 2009 at 7:28 am | Permalink
“A woman’s right to her own body decisions is a fundamental right.”
So, you believe in legalizing prostitution? In legalizing drug usage? and the selling of organs?
Monkeyhawk
Posted September 16, 2009 at 7:55 am | Permalink
(sigh)
Nobody’s against your religious devotion, “Regular,” but religion and this constitutional republic are supposed to be mutually irrelevant.
=========================
Okay, if the Crats are solid on that position, then:
Do away with the opening prayer in the House and the Senate.
Prohibit the Bible from swearing in ceremonies.
Remove God from all currency.
Do away with Christmas as a federal holiday.
That’s just a start, you can make the country absolutely God-less and free from Christianity.
What camp should I report to for confinement?
“littlejohn” –
Selling organs?
I’m on record as opposing marketing-driven approaches to health care. So, no.
“Legalizing drug use?”
Why not. Most drug problems are due to failed prohibition policies.
“Legalized prostitution?”
It’s called “The Oldest Profession” for a reason. No law is gonna stop it.
It seems to me if Sebelius truly believed that abortion was wrong, she would not be able to act in ways to support it.
But she took it far further than that. She took money from Tiller and Tiller’s PAC. So to claim that she is just separating her public job from her private beliefs rings false, unprincipled and two-faced.
Personal religious beliefs are just that “personal” that which governs your personal life.
I recently have began to wonder which is causing the downfall.
Religion as a force in the Republican party?
Or the Republican party as a force in the Religion?
The two are exclusive of the other since they have their own base tenanted.
Abortion is against God’s law, so a Christian is not to have an abortion, agreed?
But that is a tenant for a Christian, one of the faith.
What of those not of the faith?
“Regular” asks –
“What camp should I report to for confinement?”
We’re building those CONcentration Death Camps, don’t you know. CONgresscrazy Michelle Bachman and Glenn Beck say so. As “okobserver” notes, not all our projects were shovel-ready when we funded them.
Right now, the closed to your Reeducation Relocation camp is an empty field, suitable for you marching me into it when you put a bullet in my brain.
Does that KCK Bishop excommunicate any Catholic that uses birth control?
I agree with you MH. Leaders among a number of faith’s and passing judgement on who is worthy of receiving Holy Communion are hypocrites.
They can not look into one’s soul and judge what is there.
It’s between the individual and God.
“Mr_Kia” writes –
“I agree with you MH.”
“okobserver” just sharted.
We’re building those CONcentration Death Camps, don’t you know.
===============================
They damn well better have a pool.
As to abortion and the health care bill, the reality is there are two forms where it can pay for abortions.
One is the Hyde amendment which is not written into the bill bur does references it.
The Hyde amendment bans the use of federal funds for abortion except for the case of rape, incest or where the life of the mother is at state. The bill does not change or counter act that amendment.
The second is indirect payment, if a person’s private health care policy is in part paid for with the federal financial aid. AND that private insurance company as part of the coverage they provide also covers abortion.
That federal financial aid goes into the larger cash pool of the private insurance.
Which is used to pay claims of those insured by that company.
So in a sense it could be said that indirectly federal funds did go to paying for a abortion.
That is different that the health care bill is directly paying for abortions.
There are the stickling points being used to say that the health care bill pays for abortions.
writerdog
Posted September 16, 2009 at 8:19 am | Permalink
Personal religious beliefs are just that “personal” that which governs your personal life.
—————————————————-
You are mistaken. Religious beliefs are to-I don’t know if “Govern” is the right term but for lack of a better one- govern every area of your life.
So if anyone is supporting acts or laws that are contrary to God’s word, that’s a sin.
Those in great power are given greater responsibility in living out their faith.
It’s not for a person to judge her decisions or decide her fate however.
Anti you are joking but some of those refurbished in the beginning of the program during the Bush administration do have pools.
“ANTI” (as if he had a voice in the matter) demands –
“They damn well better have a pool.”
Oh, we’ll have a pool.
Around back.
You just have to take a shower first.
“Mr_Kia” offers –
“…if anyone is supporting acts or laws that are contrary to God’s word, that’s a sin.”
And that’s the genius of the Constitution of the United States of America.
It doesn’t let you pick and choose “God’s” word. It doesn’t even let you pick which “God.”
We are a nation of laws, not sins.
You just have to take a shower first.
=====================================
Today is not Saturday.
The difference being that you live by and that which you require others to live by.
I am a beef eater, Hamburger, steak, stew anything that does not come from inside the cow.
So as a Christian that is not against my faith, so if a Hindu was elected and tried to enact a law against it I would object.
If a Catholic was elected and passed a law stating I was required to attend Mass several times a day.
I would object, I am of neither faith though have no objections to their practices.
Theirs are the tenants of their faith, not mine therefore I should not be forced to live by their tenants.
In a Democracy I have that right and can object to being required to obey a law that is based on the laws of their tenants and their God’s laws (and yes I know that the Baptist God and the Catholic God is one and the same).
I do object to the reasoning of some of the Pro-lifers in using the Christian faith. The blatant use of scripture. The commandment “Thou shall not use the name of the Lord thou God in vain”.
Most will interrupt that as not using the name Jesus Christ or God as a curse.
But the real meaning includes invoking either as a cause or saying you are doing this in the name of.
Ascribing their human actions to that of God.
Your faith it a part of you. It is not something you turn on and off. You either live it or you do not.
Sebelius has never been pro-life. As a legislator she took the lead in carrying and designing abortion bills.
She was the leading politician in this state for money received from George Tiller and his numerous pacs. She called him her friend and hosted events for him at the Governors mansion.
She is not pro-life.
We are all forgetting that Sebelius as Governor had a duty to uphold the law and abortion is legal. She is entitled to her own personal beliefs about abortion but as governor, she had to uphold the law.
How hard is that to understand?
And as for Sebelius taking donations from Tiller – so what? I’m sure Tiarht and Brownback have both taken political donations from groups they don’t agree with but both were right there to take the cold cash, huh?
But this KCK Archbishop should be told that he needs to stop and reflect on why he still condones the Catholic Church with all their skeletons? I wonder if God has forgotten or has swept everything under the rug like the Catholic Church Hiearchy has?
“writerdog” asserts –
“…the Baptist God and the Catholic God is one and the same”
May the REAL God (the Baptist one, of course) have mercy on your heathen soul!
Anti fault he reminded me:
A man approaches a sale clerk in Men’s wear and asked for seven pairs of underwear.
The clerk points out that the underwear comes in packages of three and six but not seven.
Their argue back and forth over the issue and the man states he needs seven pairs not three or six!
Another man approaches and ask for six pairs of underwear.
The clerk point to the other man and said “this guy want seven pairs!”.
The second man asks, “why do you want seven pairs of underwear?”.
“simple, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday! Why do you want only six pairs?”.
Simple the second man said, “February, March, April, May, June, July!”.
Chrisfrommactown
Sebelius said. “I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state,
WTF is that suppose to mean?
–
That means exactly what it says – separation of church and state – the church does not tell the state what to to do and the state does not tell the church what to do.
Or do you want to change that? Because if you want the church to be able to tell the state what to do – then there is another side to that coin – the state can then tell the church what to do – and possibly tax the church.
And we could never have that happen, now could we?
Why, where would all that tax-free money be for these mega church and Catholics to spend on their cars, houses and all that gold stuff.
totoinks
Posted September 16, 2009 at 9:38 am | Permalink
We are all forgetting that Sebelius as Governor had a duty to uphold the law and abortion is legal.
===============================
And throw parties in the Governor’s mansion for Tiller and crew for being large campaing donors.
That sound you hear are abortion coins clinking in the ‘old gray mare’s’ personal campaign purse.
Here one to get a fight going, all major religions worship the same God. The God of Abraham.
Hebrews, Christians, Moslems and the same God.
“Politico” pontificates –
“Your faith it a part of you. It is not something you turn on and off. You either live it or you do not.”
Yeah, but your faith won’t help you draw into an inside straight.
In poker, God isn’t outlawed; God is irrelevant. You can pray all you want for that 7-of-Clubs for a Royal Flush but God’s not gonna change the game for you.
I’ve seen athletes cross themselves, point up to the heavens after an RBI triple, and give credit to Jesus for his knocking out the champion in the 4th round at the Garden. I have no problem with that.
But, y’see, God is irrelevant in those situations. It’s still 90 feet to first base regardless of the number of times you’ve been born. You could be a Muslim terrorist pinch runner and break up a double play by setting off your suicide vest as the Jewish second-shortstop (hey, it could happen) is turning to make the peg. But once they clear out the bodies, the umpires will rule by the baseball book, not the Koran.
I’ve mentioned it before but I still think it’s amusing. Back in the 80s, the bishop came down to basketball practice and asked if the coach would make it a rule none of his players would cross themselves before a free throw unless they could hit 85% or better from the line.
writerdog
Posted September 16, 2009 at 9:47 am | Permalink
Here one to get a fight going, all major religions worship the same God. The God of Abraham.
——————–
I’m pretty sure Buddhists, Taoists, Hindu’s and etc. that don’t worship Abraham’s God.
Why, where would all that tax-free money be for these mega church and Catholics to spend on their cars, houses and all that gold stuff.
—————————————————-
I don’t know of any churches that own any of that stuff.
Some do own buses or vans for youth groups, etc.
As far as salaries of employees, churches don’t operate any different than any other non profit organization.
Their results are one heck of a lot better though.
“Regular” should know better –
Governor Sebelius did not “…throw parties in the Governor’s mansion for Tiller and crew for being large campaing donors.”
And you know that.
The Party at Cedar Crest was offered at a charity auction in Topeka. Dr. Tiller surprised everyone — and caused no small amount of consternation — when he bid highest at that auction.
Cedar Crest is a public building. And, if you’re Friends of the Zoo or just want to throw a bash, it’s a pretty prestigious place to host at party in Topeka. It’s Topeka, after all.
In other words, the March of Dimes or somebody rented the hall at the previous local charity auction. Tiller bid for it the next year.
That’s hardly evidence Governor Sebelius “threw a party for Tiller.”
(I admire your restraint at not imagining the Governor with a “Kiss the Cook” apron on the patio saying, “Let’s throw another baby on the barbie!” If you’d thought of it, you would’ve, I s’pose.)
BTW. Do we have your current address? The zombie student drones at all the schools that saw President Obama’s stay-in-school-do-your-homework indoctrination last week need to update the Rolodex.
And be sure to pack your shower sandals.
(chortle)
The Party at Cedar Crest was offered at a charity auction in Topeka. Dr. Tiller surprised everyone — and caused no small amount of consternation — when he bid highest at that auction.
highest Bid – cough, cough
Pro-Kan-Doo-di-doo-di-doo….
(chortles)
The Party at Cedar Crest was offered at a charity auction in Topeka. Dr. Tiller surprised everyone…when he started giving blenders as door prizes.
MH,Do the camps have high def cable tv?
“Mr_Kia” plays the ignorance card –
“I don’t know of any churches that own any of that stuff.”
Have you seen the ring the Pope wears?
He could pawn it on east Harry and feed Africa for 17 years.
And there have never been any exposés about corrupt televangelists, now have there?
You’re ignorant of Robert Tilton, Jimmy and Tammy Faye Bakker, Pat Robertson’s blood diamond business, Jerry Falwell’s Learjet fleet, the documentary film “Marjoe?”
It takes a lot of effort to remain that ignorant. If nothing else, I admire your commitment to the cause.
“Freebird1971″ asks –
“MH,Do the camps have high def cable tv?”
Dish TV. It’s cheaper. You know us “libs,” always out to get the best bang for the buck.
It’s surprising, however, how the CONs are coming forth in droves to ask for free stuff.
So, yeah.
There’s Hi-Def TV around back.
You just have to take a shower first.
(chortle)
You’re ignorant of Robert Tilton, Jimmy and Tammy Faye Bakker, Pat Robertson’s blood diamond business, Jerry Falwell’s Learjet fleet, the documentary film “Marjoe?”
===============================
Jimmy has a new compound near Branson to hustle the elderly.
private shower I hope.
Monkeyhawk
Posted September 16, 2009 at 10:18 am | Permalink
“Mr_Kia” plays the ignorance card –
“I don’t know of any churches that own any of that stuff.”
Have you seen the ring the Pope wears?
He could pawn it on east Harry and feed Africa for 17 years.
And there have never been any exposés about corrupt televangelists, now have there?
You’re ignorant of Robert Tilton, Jimmy and Tammy Faye Bakker, Pat Robertson’s blood diamond business, Jerry Falwell’s Learjet fleet, the documentary film “Marjoe?”
It takes a lot of effort to remain that ignorant. If nothing else, I admire your commitment to the cause.
————————————————–
Since the Vatican is not under US law the Pope I think is moot.
The rest many are criminals plain and simple.
I’m talking about your run of the mill corner church.
Not the high profile health and wealth preachers.
“I feel that my actions as a parishioner are different than my actions as a public official ”
Yeah, right! Saying, living, and doing two dynamically opposed things simultaneously. What a hypocrite!
The way she chummed up to Tiller, taking his money, bringing him into Ceder Crest, etc. and even fighting attempts at cleaning up filthy abortion clinics and then sit there and say what she is…is asinine. She is as much a two faced liar as her boss….big surprise.
““I feel that my actions as a parishioner are different than my actions as a public official ”
Heck, (not the word I wanted to use) cons check certain tenets of their faith at the door every day. That, or they believe is supply side Jesus.*
(Read more about those who believe in supply side Jesus in Senator Al Franken’s book “Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them”.)
reggie,
“You despise anything that is Christian or has to do with churches.”
You are missing the point, probably intentionally.
Sebelius may belong to the catholic church, but she was elected to govern people of all religious persuasions. I know you hate the idea that nonchristians are citizens too, and expect their elected representatives in government to not discriminate against against them, but it is the law of the land.
I don’t despise christianity, I’m just not christian. Leave me to my beliefs and I’ll be more than happy to leave you to yours. It’s when you christians railroad through laws that force others to comply with your beliefs without taking their views and traditions into account that cuts no ice with us. Religious freedom cuts both ways you know- it was the baptists who wrote to petition for religious freedom for themselves; you’d think they’d extend that desire for freedom to others as well, but it hasn’t seemed to work that way. When bishops publicly demand that government officials who are catholic sign laws the way the church wants, they’ve expressed their opinion of our Constitution and freedom of religion. Now either you accept the Constitution or you don’t. You want that second amendment, you have to accept the rest too.
Pol,
“She called him her friend and hosted events for him at the Governors mansion.”
I called Dr. Tiller my friend too. He was a kind, caring and gentle human being, unlike the drunks and wife-beaters and child molesters and deadbeat dads who howled outside his clinic and eventually murdered him.
Who Would Jesus Murder?
The next best-selling CON bumper sticker.
Leave me to my beliefs and I’ll be more than happy to leave you to yours.
===============================
Okay, fine then – no more Christmas holidays for you.
Stop butting in and making my beliefs of a Holy Day a secular spending fest.
“Regular” is not having a good
hairlogic day –“…no more Christmas holidays for you.:
Fine.
Go through the rituals of your sacred Holy Day on your own.
I’ll celebrate Saturnalia or something about the same time and we’ll all meet back after the weekend.
What’s amazing is how WE Blog CONs don’t seem to understand any other cultures or faiths or traditions. I used to live near a predominately Jewish neighborhood and kinda got used to the fact the barber shop wasn’t open on Saturdays. I also knew you couldn’t get a reservation at a decent Chinese restaurant on December 25th because of the crowds. But the pharmacy was open.
Believe in all the “holy” days you want.
reggie,
“Okay, fine then – no more Christmas holidays for you.”
I don’t now nor have I ever celebrated christmas. I celebrate the Saturnalia, Hanukkah and Yule, Kwanzaa and Solstice. Why on earth would I need christmas?
How do you separate your religious belief from your public life? Your beliefs define who you are. This is true whether you believe in God or not. Your beliefs indicate what you hold true in life. As to forcing my beliefs on anyone it is done all the time. By allowing abortion someone has forced their belief on an unborn child. I would rather see someone state their beliefs honestly and stand by them. If everyone did that we would all know who we wanted to vote for in public office. I then could vote for the person whose values and beliefs I agree with, as could everyone.
letsbecivil,
Fasten your seat belt buddy, and put on a protective helmet. What you said makes too much sense and is the truth. There are a bunch of jackals living here that will try and eat you for saying anything that makes sense, is true, and shines a light on their lies.
Welcome to the asylum.
civil,
We separate our beliefs all the time. If you work for an employer, you are expected to not to make business decisions based on your particular beliefs, but for the good of the company. If you are an elected official, you are expected to represent all the citizens in your district, not just the members of your church. If you can’t do that, stay out of business and politics!
civil,
Suppose a Jehovah’s Witness were elected county commissioner and forced your county hospital to stop offering transfusions and organ donations? He’s just following his beliefs, but I expect a lot of good citizens would set up quite a howl. That is similar to what this new breed of christian officeholders wants to do to nonchristians in their districts. A government is supposed to represent ALL of it’s citizens.
The flame troll says: “Fasten your seat belt buddy, and put on a protective helmet. What you said makes too much sense and is the truth. There are a bunch of jackals living here that will try and eat you for saying anything that makes sense, is true, and shines a light on their lies.”
As you probably noticed, “letsbecivil”, Boxlock has long ago abandoned any pretense to even try to follow the advice contained in the nic you have given yourself.
As for your post (a nice one by the way), upholding the Constitution is a value. Following the law is a value. Respecting the viewpoints of others is a value. Honoring the idea that one’s professional duty in public life may not match one’s religious faith is a value. And it is not dishonest to actually be open to nuance.
letsbecivil,
SEE!! Ha ha!
“Your beliefs define who you are. ”
And to not live them is the mark of a hypocrite.
As letsbecivil said:
“I would rather see someone state their beliefs honestly and stand by them. If everyone did that we would all know who we wanted to vote for in public office. I then could vote for the person whose values and beliefs I agree with, as could everyone.”
Some of those following your post ‘letsbecivil’ have their hypocrisy so ingrained in them that they can’t even see that they are hypocrites. It is a part of their very nature to accept themselves and others living differently than what they profess to believe in, rationalizing it in lofty sounding verbiage…which is garbage.
It doesn’t occur to them that, yes they must follow the law, but that they can and should use their influence to change those things that run counter to their belief system, not using lip service saying one thing and doing another. Why do they do it….personal gain, and they are liars.
“If you are an elected official, you are expected to represent all the citizens in your district, not just the members of your church. If you can’t do that, stay out of business and politics!”–Jed
NO! While you may represent all the citizens in you district you to not yield to their lead, YOU LEAD! You clearly and honestly state your positions and what you intend to do and let the people decide whether you enter politics on their behalf or not. Once there you do the best you can to live and act on what you said.
‘citizens in you district you to not yield’ = ‘citizens in your district you do not yield’
“letsbecivil,
“SEE!! Ha ha!”
Followed by false attribution of motive in the midst of ad hominem:
“Some of those following your post ‘letsbecivil’ have their hypocrisy so ingrained in them that they can’t even see that they are hypocrites. It is a part of their very nature to accept themselves and others living differently than what they profess to believe in, rationalizing it in lofty sounding verbiage…which is garbage.
“It doesn’t occur to them that, yes they must follow the law, but that they can and should use their influence to change those things that run counter to their belief system, not using lip service saying one thing and doing another. Why do they do it….personal gain, and they are liars.”
Typical flame troll post, utterly lacking in civility.
Re: The Flame Troll
DFI
Sebelius, for some reason, is pretending to be a member of the Catholic faith.
. . .
Under Obamanation’s Marxist medical takeover, abortion coverage would not be optional. You would not be allowed to enroll in the public option unless you were willing to pay an additional premium to cover the cost of elective abortions on demand, without restrictions – in effect, an abortion surcharge (which the Capps Amendment specifies will not be less than $12 a year, but it could be more). The bill requires DHHS head Bilious Sebelius to collect these monies and place them in a federal Treasury account – as much ‘public funds’ and ‘federal funds’ as any money collected by the IRS. Bilious Sebelius would be writing checks directly to abortionist quacks to pay inflated fees (=payola) for abortions (and presumably more taxpayer-funded steak-and-lobster soirees for abortionist quacks and their killing staff), with funds drawn on a federal Treasury account. It would be direct government funding of abortion, with federal government funds, pure and simple, comrades.
To further inflate the number of abortions, school-based Planned Parenthood clinics, accountable only to Bilious Sebelius, would also be referring schoolgirls, without parental notification or consent, to abortionist quacks, who would get paid secretly by Bilious Sebelius – with your tax money.
“Typical flame troll post, utterly lacking in civility. “-the jawless fish
I don’t see it that way, but instead simply blunt, not softening the truth.
Ironically, the very next post from Boxlock actually has something worth responding to:
“NO! While you may represent all the citizens in you district you to not yield to their lead, YOU LEAD! You clearly and honestly state your positions and what you intend to do and let the people decide whether you enter politics on their behalf or not.”
Fair enough, if the person running for office is personally arrogant and ideologically shallow enough to presume to “know” everything they are going to do beforehand. On the other hand, it is hardly dishonest to for a candidate or office holder to say that he/she doesn’t know what he/she will do in response to every situation and every issue, but that he/she will act based on the best available information. The real world often does not have simple good versus bad situations. Often the situations are good against better, or, all too frequently, bad against worse (abortion being a prime example). Listening with an open mind is a value. Being willing to learn is a value. Striving for humility and self objectivity are values. When I have talked to people who work with legislators for a living, I am often impressed with how often their criteria for who is a good legislator has absolutely nothing to do with political ideology, and more to do with whether they listen to more than one viewpoint, are appropriately skeptical about what they hear, even when it appears to agree with their philosophy, and stop to consider the consequences of their actions. The best legislators really try to think about the long term consequences of what they do. The worst legislators are intellectually lazy reflexive ideologues who approach most issues with an attitude of absolute certainty because “this is the way a “conservative” or “progressive” should vote”, without stopping to consider, much less bother to understand, the likely consequences of their vote. People who are often certain and (in their eyes) never wrong might be “what you see is what you get”, but you can be certain they will never, ever be more than that, and that is a recipe for a absolutely lousy public official.
To use the current health care debate as an example, I am very unimpressed with congress critters who say that they will not consider any form of public option, but I am also very unimpressed with those who insist that there must be a public option. The priority should be to accomplish a goal (health care reform) and not the method that it is done. People who say that health care reform must not or must have a public option have basically shut themselves off for ideological reasons.
“Once there you do the best you can to live and act on what you said.”
I agree to a point, but a person who says that he/she will do his/her best to respect and even listen to those with whom he/she disagrees, and then does so, is being consistent with what he/she said. More to the point, the diversity among Catholics is enormous. I would not want any person to say “I am a Catholic” and assume that that would explain what her stands and values are, because it wouldn’t.
Another Boxlock post worth responding to (and in response to Re: DNFTT post yet).
“I don’t see it that way, but instead simply blunt, not softening the truth.”
There is a difference between being blunt and showing no respect for those people who don’t agree with your opinion as to what is “the” truth.
For example:
Being blunt: “I believe abortion is murder, and that abortion should not be tolerated.”
Flaming: “Those who don’t agree with me about abortion are murderers who try to justify their opinions with hypocrisy and lies.”
The second example is not being blunt about one’s own beliefs, it is attacking the beliefs of others well past the point of rudeness. It is also arrogant and almost certainly false, because the speaker really has no special insight into the minds of those who disagree with him.
It’s like I said earlier: The ideas that one should listen to varying opinions and be aware of the potential pitfalls of one’s own beliefs are values.
“Sebelius, for some reason, is pretending to be a member of the Catholic faith.”
Assuming that you are indeed Troy Newman.
I hope you go broke.
Ag,
The most dangerous people in the world are the ones who know they’re absolutely right. In other words, they are the ones who ignore their religious duty (of whatever religion) to humility.They believe wholeheartedly that they know the mind of god, and that god shares all their prejudices (which are in theory the deadly sins of pride and hatred). They believe that they have the absolute right to do anything they think will promote their belief system. If a doctor does what they consider wrong, they are obligated to kill him. If a woman is accused of having illicit sex, they must hang her. If a person doesn’t subscribe to their religious views, they are doing god’s will to persecute them. Nothing is forbidden to those who believe they follow a higher law, which in practice is no law at all. A truly religious person humbly admits that the mind of god is far beyond his ability to comprehend.
This might double post as it seems to be stuck, but it probably needs to be said twice.
Agnatha,
I haven’t written either of the things you give as examples and posted. And though labeled examples they are poor ones.
If I think someone is being a self-serving hypocrite, or lying, or even disingenuous, I am going to call it for what it is.
And if you don’t like it, ignore it as you are constantly recommending with the “DNFTT” bit. That seems to be the most frequent item you post about a number of people, so apparently you have a weakness for things being expressed candidly.
Or, as the saying goes, ‘If you can’t play with the big dogs…..stay on the porch’.
Agnatha,
I haven’t written either of the things you give as examples and posted. And though labeled examples they are poor ones.
If I think someone is being a self-serving hypocrite, or lying, or even disingenuous, I am going to call it for what it is.
And if you don’t like it, ignore it as you are constantly recommending with the “DNFTT” bit. That seems to be the most frequent item you post about a number of people, so apparently you have a weakness for things being expressed candidly.
Or, as the saying goes, ‘If you can’t play with the big dogs…..stay on the porch”.
Sebelius never lied about her beliefs and she continued to be elected. The people WANT moderate people in office. If you want a church leader, go to church. DOn’t ask the government to provide you with a church leader.
You live your life the way YOU see fit, and leave everyone else alone. I swear I don’t know why that concept is so friggin hard for you people to grasp.
Jed,
And the most spineless, as in an Agnatha fish (look it up), are people that don’t stand up and speak out for what they know is right, and after listening, denounce what they know is wrong.
Agnatha’s criticisms really don’t phase me anymore, or yours.
Oh, and Jed, while the mind of God IS far beyond man’s ability to comprehend, God has given us what we need in his word, which IS the truth. And I’ll stand firmly on that and say so.
“Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path” (Psalm 119:105).
“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12).
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their women with child ripped open.” (Hosea 13:16)
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10
Boxic,
“God has given us what we need in his word, which IS the truth. And I’ll stand firmly on that and say so.”
And it’s amazing how much disagreement there is on exactly what god’s word means. I hate to think how many millions of you christians have gladly slaughtered other christians over insanely stupid theological questions and quests for power within the various churches. Somehow I don’t think Jesus ever sang “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition,” but it sure never stopped any of you from murdering each other in his name.
“I haven’t written either of the things you give as examples and posted. And though labeled examples they are poor ones.”
Leaving aside your assessment of my examples (and by the way, you in no way post like you understand the difference between being blunt and being a flaming troll), they are examples, so of course you didn’t say them particularly.
So, knowing that they won’t phase you, I will make the examples more explicit.
Boxlock being blunt: “NO! While you may represent all the citizens in you district you to not yield to their lead, YOU LEAD! You clearly and honestly state your positions and what you intend to do and let the people decide whether you enter politics on their behalf or not. Once there you do the best you can to live and act on what you said.”
Boxlock being a flame troll: “SEE!! Ha ha!” followed by…
“Some of those following your post ‘letsbecivil’ have their hypocrisy so ingrained in them that they can’t even see that they are hypocrites. It is a part of their very nature to accept themselves and others living differently than what they profess to believe in, rationalizing it in lofty sounding verbiage…which is garbage.”
Boxlock being blunt: “Oh, and Jed, while the mind of God IS far beyond man’s ability to comprehend, God has given us what we need in his word, which IS the truth. And I’ll stand firmly on that and say so.”
Boxlock being a flame troll: “And the most spineless, as in an Agnatha fish (look it up), are people that don’t stand up and speak out for what they know is right, and after listening, denounce what they know is wrong.”
But what is truly amusing about this is that you seem to fail to understand that Jed and I are indeed standing up and speaking up for what we think is right. In response to our speaking up for what we believe is right, you throw the flame that we are “spineless” because we don’t stand up and speak for what we know is right.
When it comes to ironic impairment, it doesn’t get much worse than that.
As for playing with the big dogs…well…I am amused that the dancing poodle is presuming to lecture me about being a big dog. When it comes to trolls, I call them as I see them. I don’t label people trolls because I disagree with them (indeed, I have dismissed some posts from posters I might be inclined to agree with as trolls), I label them as trolls when they post provocative nonsense that is just designed to get responses. Sometimes, as in this thread, in dealing with a single poster I will dismiss some comments as trolling, and others as worthy of response even if I competely disagree with the content.
And a real big dog on the blog would know the difference.
Jed,
And you know your argument about Christians slaughtering others has absolutely no basis in fact over any other group of people. All humans are cruel and likewise capable of compassion, and certainly there is much compassion provided by Christians if not more as well.
I’m trying to think back on the times I’ve read of the compassionate acts of a group of atheists, you know, their agencies operated for benevolent good……um…I’m drawing a blank.
“The most dangerous people in the world are the ones who know they’re absolutely right.”
And the reason why they are the most dangerous people in the world? Because they assume that they are absolutely right, they assume everyone else is absolutely wrong.
And you spineless fish, within your own post above lies your total hypocrisy…proven.
Jed writes: Somehow I don’t think Jesus ever sang “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition,” but it sure never stopped any of you from murdering each other in his name.
Evidently, you never saw the musical where that line comes from and have distorted what it really means.
The ‘jawless fish’ struggles with absolutivity because the pirate eye-patch he wears obscures his vision.
And the reason why they are the most dangerous people in the world? Because they assume that they are absolutely right, they assume everyone else is absolutely wrong.” the jawless and spineless fish
And you make it easy fish, you make it so very easy!
Now return to your bottom feeding.
You label anyone here, especially me, a troll because you don’t like what we say, and you actually believe in your self assumed pseudo intellectual world you are smarter than anyone else. A world where you simply love to listen to yourself babble.
“I’m trying to think back on the times I’ve read of the compassionate acts of a group of atheists, you know, their agencies operated for benevolent good……um…I’m drawing a blank.”
Well, I am not convinced you read a whole heck of a lot outside of your world view.
Two things:
1) Atheists and other non-theists will support secular relief agencies, and even religious based ones, especially those who do not discriminate based on faith.
2) There is this agency that is on the front lines of human rights activism (indeed, they are often the first human rights organization to hit the ground in cases where people are threatened to be executed for religious crimes, such as a woman daring to be raped by a married man), and also in fact does relief work. This organization is the International Humanist and Ethical Union.
http://www.iheu.org/
Examples of some of the work the IHEU and affiliated organizations have done.
http://www.iheu.org/node/1220
http://www.iheu.org/node/1089
http://www.iheu.org/iheu-world-conference-untouchability
http://www.iheu.org/node/170
The IHEU is often the first organization to bring attention to such things as slavery and the abuse of religious minorities (yes, including those people who are not humanists).
They do good work. You might not agree with all of their policy objectives, but they are helping people.
There is also Humanist Charities. This is work they are doing in Haiti. They are also working to get medical textbooks into Afghanistan.
http://www.humanistcharities.org/Haiti_DR.php
“You label anyone here, especially me, a troll because you don’t like what we say, and you actually believe in your self assumed pseudo intellectual world you are smarter than anyone else. A world where you simply love to listen to yourself babble.”
And so, we go back to classic and shallow flame trolling.
Re: The Flame Troll
DFI (and indeed, I am done)
“The ‘jawless fish’ struggles with absolutivity because the pirate eye-patch he wears obscures his vision.”
Arrrrr!
Translation:
Re: Regular
You know the rest.
Wow fish, those examples of “humanist” organizations you sight are certainly ones on the forefront of everyone’s mind, certainly in the news a lot for all the benefit they bring….NOT!
“Boxlock20″ –
Bad PR agents.
Are the weblog editors taking a vacation?
“Bad PR agents.”–Monkey
I guess, along with relative ineffectiveness and lack of impact.
“Boxlock20,” an expert on both history and public relations alleges –
“…relative ineffectiveness and lack of impact.”
I dunno.
I had no idea Rotary International had been vaccinating a billion kids over the years until they finally got a PR firm to tell us we’ve almost eradicated polio. I always thought Rotarians were the ass holes got dibs at the noon buffet down at the motel restaurant on Wednesday noons.
That’s pretty good PR.
reggie,
“Evidently, you never saw the musical where that line comes from and have distorted what it really means.”
No, I didn’t see the musical. I was taught the song in a sunday school class I was dragged to by parents of a friend who thought I needed Jaysusing up. As I recall, it was presented in the context of heroic christian soldiers gleefully killing commies (it being the height of McCarthyism at the time). Being a mouthy little kid, I questioned the morality of the song, and was promptly told I didn’t respect their authority, was a pinko commie fellow traveler and chased out of the class. I got so intrigued by the charge I went to Rector’s and bought a paperback copy of “The Communist Manifesto” to see what the fuss was about, read it (I still have it around somewhere), and my impression was that they seemed just like the fine upstanding christians who chased me out of church. Didn’t enhance my view of either group.
Boxic,
“And you know your argument about Christians slaughtering others has absolutely no basis in fact over any other group of people.”
Well, let’s see. I’ll let you go through the history books, and you find me a single continuous period of 17 years in the last 1700 ( a mere 1% of the time since christianity gained political power) when christians weren’t busy slaughtering each other and anyone else they got their hands on over real or trumped up religious differences, and I’ll concede the point. Get busy!
“I’ll let you go through the history books, and you find me a single continuous period of 17 years in the last 1700 ( a mere 1% of the time since christianity gained political power) when christians weren’t busy slaughtering each other and anyone else they got their hands on over real or trumped up religious differences,”—Jed
And more so the Muslims, they’re still doing it, as well as others aligned with a religion or not.
Your point is a gross generalization not to be taken seriously or even pursued further.
Boxic,
In other words, you know damned well you can’t find those 17 years and are trying to get out of conceding the point.
And yes, I know all the other religions have their atrocities too. I wasn’t talking to them, I was talking to you!
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