Good for Newt Gingrich (in photo), Laura Bush and others for responding to complaints about President Obama’s speech to schoolchildren today on the importance of education and staying in school. Former House Speaker Gingrich said that the attacks on the speech are without merit. “It’s a good speech,” Gingrich said on NBC’s “Today” show,” adding that “I would love to have every child in America read it, think about it and learn that they should stay in school and they should study.” The former first lady told CNN that “there’s a place for the president of the United States to talk to schoolchildren and encourage schoolchildren” to stay in school.
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Obama is just copying President Bush with his speech to school children:
President George H.W. Bush gave an address to schools nationwide in 1991, from a junior high school in Washington, D.C. News reports from the time said the White House hoped that the address would be shown at schools nationwide, and Bush began his remarks by saying he was talking to “millions” of students “in classrooms all across the country.”
http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/public_papers.php?id=3450&year=1991&month=10
But when President George H.W. Bush delivered a similar speech on October 1, 1991, from Alice Deal Junior High School in Washington DC, the controversy was just beginning. Democrats, then the majority party in Congress, not only denounced Bush’s speech — they also ordered the General Accounting Office to investigate its production and later summoned top Bush administration officials to Capitol Hill for an extensive hearing on the issue.
Democrats pounced. “The Department of Education should not be producing paid political advertising for the president, it should be helping us to produce smarter students,” said Richard Gephardt, then the House Majority Leader. “And the president should be doing more about education than saying, ‘Lights, camera, action.’”
American_Way posted September 3, 2009 at 12:08 pm | Permalink
“The president should stick to trying to run this nation and addressing the adults. Please leave the unfortunate children to the teachers, liberal thou they may be.
Subtle, but yes it is indoctrination for a very easily impressed crowd.
Please leave your politic’s out of the education of our children. At least the direct indoctrination on your idealogy.
Imagine had Bush tried this…..”
And in other news, President Obama this morning used his own special cocktail of lithium, diamorphine, and mescaline and then, using a combination of operant conditioning, hypnosis, and readings from Nietzsche, destroyed America’s school children’s moral center and impulse control and turned them into brainwashed mindless homework-doing, stay-in-school Commie-Nazi lock-stepping killer zombies.
But will the Mainstream Media tell you that?
Regular posted September 7, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Chas,no one had any objections to O’BAMA’s speech, other than it is too long.
. . .
O’BAMA’s twisted Presidential decree is: Ask not what you can do for your country, Ask what you can do for me.
—————-
boxlock20 posted September 3, 2009 at 7:40 pm | Permalink
“You republicans are trying to make something out of nothing.”—Blaidd_
We know whence it comes from and have good reason to be cautious. The author would like to make good little socialists out of all of them.
—————-
GMC70 posted September 3, 2009 at 12:26 pm | Permalink
I suspect it is just a message of work hard, stay in school, etc. That’s not new, nor is it remotely objectionable, aside to a few loose nuts.
But Obama is the perpetual campaign machine – it’s hard to imagine he will not use the opportunity to drive polical goals. If so, that’s inappropriate. We’ll have to wait and see.
—————-
Politico posted September 3, 2009 at 12:09 pm | Permalink
This is not about encouraging children to learn and do well in school. He is asking them to help him. What BS!
—————-
boxlock20 posted September 4, 2009 at 8:20 am
And therein lies the crux of the issue.
The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.
Yes cosmos, that was in reference to the lesson plan imposed by the Education Department that wanted the students to write about what they can do to serve O’BAMA and what they can do for O’BAMA.
That part was removed from the lesson plan after protest.
Even teachers objected to the Education Department proposing a lesson plan. O’BAMA and his Education Department acted as if teachers were incapable of presenting their own lesson plan about the speech.
Of course, cosmos lies a lot and loves to take quotes out of context and misrepresent what was written.
So when does the stoning and demonization of Gingrich and Laura Bush start?
After all, Republicans went after Colin Powell with a vengence for agreeing with Obama on certain issues.
Could it be that Gingrich and Laura Bush are just RINO’s?
Come on CONS – get those stones ready to throw at these two people for daring to get out of lockstep with the current GOP leaders – Limbaugh, Beck, O’Reilly, Hannity and last but not least – the lovely Ann Coulter.
Come on CONS – when is the public stoning scheduled?
Regular
Posted September 8, 2009 at 12:47 pm | Permalink
Yes cosmos, that was in reference to the lesson plan imposed by the Education Department that wanted the students to write about what they can do to serve O’BAMA and what they can do for O’BAMA.
–
This is no different than any other president asking Americans to help him make our country the best place on earth.
But, of course, you cannot see past your hatred of everything Obama – so this entire posting is wasted on you.
BTW – I assume you were just as outraged at George H.W. Bush when he gave his speech to the school children when he was pushing that New World Order crap – right?
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/When-Bush-spoke-to-students-Democrats-investigated-held-hearings-57694347.html
When Bush spoke to students, Democrats investigated, held hearings
By: Byron York
Chief Political Correspondent
09/08/09 7:11 AM EDT
The controversy over President Obama’s speech to the nation’s schoolchildren will likely be over shortly after Obama speaks today at Wakefield High School in Arlington, Virginia. But when President George H.W. Bush delivered a similar speech on October 1, 1991, from Alice Deal Junior High School in Washington DC, the controversy was just beginning. Democrats, then the majority party in Congress, not only denounced Bush’s speech — they also ordered the General Accounting Office to investigate its production and later summoned top Bush administration officials to Capitol Hill for an extensive hearing on the issue.
Unlike the Obama speech, in 1991 most of the controversy came after, not before, the president’s school appearance. The day after Bush spoke, the Washington Post published a front-page story suggesting the speech was carefully staged for the president’s political benefit. “The White House turned a Northwest Washington junior high classroom into a television studio and its students into props,” the Post reported.
With the Post article in hand, Democrats pounced. “The Department of Education should not be producing paid political advertising for the president, it should be helping us to produce smarter students,” said Richard Gephardt, then the House Majority Leader. “And the president should be doing more about education than saying, ‘Lights, camera, action.’”
Democrats did not stop with words. Rep. William Ford, then chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee, ordered the General Accounting Office to investigate the cost and legality of Bush’s appearance. On October 17, 1991, Ford summoned then-Education Secretary Lamar Alexander and other top Bush administration officials to testify at a hearing devoted to the speech. “The hearing this morning is to really examine the expenditure of $26,750 of the Department of Education funds to produce and televise an appearance by President Bush at Alice Deal Junior High School in Washington, DC,” Ford began. “As the chairman of the committee charged with the authorization and implementation of education programs, I am very much interested in the justification, rationale for giving the White House scarce education funds to produce a media event.”
Unfortunately for Ford, the General Accounting Office concluded that the Bush administration had not acted improperly. “The speech itself and the use of the department’s funds to support it, including the cost of the production contract, appear to be legal,” the GAO wrote in a letter to Chairman Ford. “The speech also does not appear to have violated the restrictions on the use of appropriations for publicity and propaganda.”
That didn’t stop Democratic allies from taking their own shots at Bush. The National Education Association denounced the speech, saying it “cannot endorse a president who spends $26,000 of taxpayers’ money on a staged media event at Alice Deal Junior High School in Washington, D.C. — while cutting school lunch funds for our neediest youngsters.”
Lost in all the denouncing and investigating was the fact that Bush’s speech itself, like Obama’s today, was entirely unremarkable. “Block out the kids who think it’s not cool to be smart,” the president told students. “If someone goofs off today, are they cool? Are they still cool years from now, when they’re stuck in a dead end job. Don’t let peer pressure stand between you and your dreams.
Regular – as for Department of Education imposing their plans on teachers – what about the No Child Left Behind?
George W. Bush pushed that debacle through but never funded the damn thing. Alot of red tape and alot of studying for tests – but very little learning was actually accomplished.
And, as a bonus, our local and state taxes had to be increased to pay for GWB’s little gem of an idea.
I assume you were just as outraged about the NCLB also?
Regular
Posted September 8, 2009 at 12:47 pm | Permalink
Yes cosmos, that was in reference to the lesson plan imposed by the Education Department that wanted the students to write about what they can do to serve O’BAMA and what they can do for O’BAMA.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
Imposed? I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
politico – what’s your point? Republicans have done the same thing – it’s called political theatre.
Let’s take a trip down memory lane, shall we? How many millions was wasted on Republicans’ investigations into Clinton for those 8 years? And I believe they were the majority party – weren’t they?
Republicans had the power from 1994 to 2006 and six of those years were total power – White House, Senate and Congress.
So perhaps all this wailing and gnashing of teeth done by Republicans is the fact they lost their power and they lost big!
But let Republicans keep going with their current tirades, ranting and hissy-fit tantrums – it makes for good political theatre.
Gingrich, Bush defend school speech
=====================================
So.
Phillip, you are looking desperate…again.
I was disappointed that the speech did not encourage young people to community service. I would like to have heard the words “It takes a village” or something similar.
In Bizzaro world, we’d find Amway regurgitating some position held by his philosophical antithesis Richard Gephardt (whom I’ve never had any use for).
Or maybe they are actually kindred spirits.
Good for Laura and Newt putting the educational welfare of children ahead of petty partisan politics.
“But let Republicans keep going with their current tirades, ranting and hissy-fit tantrums – it makes for good political theatre.”
But nearly as entertaining as the demcorats reaction to the Bush address.
And Cosmos, Obama did tone it down from the original white house directed lesson plan to be imbelished with AFT and NEA support.
Instead, Obama decided to stick on safer ground and tell the kids to stay in school – just like Bush did.
“And therein lies the crux of the issue.
The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.”
And that pretty much IS what was he WAS going to do before being called on so harshly and dropping the suggested curriculum to go along with the speech.
Just like a kid won’t slid his hand into the cookie jar when his mom is glaring at him so too did Obama keep it innocuous when being placed under a microscope.
totoinks
Posted September 8, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Permalink
Regular – as for Department of Education imposing their plans on teachers – what about the No Child Left Behind?
———————-
Senator Ted Kennedy back the NCLB as well.
NCLB is not a lesson plan anyway.
But a nice try at something, not sure what, perhaps taking up space on a blog.
I heard a great deal about personal responsibility but only a second hand reference to community responsibility.
I would like to have heard him encourage cooperation over competition. He should have encouraged students to also help one another and become engaged in their communities.
Maybe he’ll grace the kids with a mid-term booster speech and cover any missed areas. You can only hold their attention for so long at a shot.
Laura Bush and Newt Gingrich obviously don’t have cable news shows that are dependent upon generating big ratings.
What will be the manufactured outrage from the GOP next week? Anyone want to make some predictions?
Bit of a schism in the GOP between the sane and insane factions that are suffereing form ODS!
“mid-term booster speech and cover any missed areas. You can only hold their attention for so long at a shot.”
You thinking something just before the 2010 election cycle? Or maybe 2012?
Well, I am LAUGHING today at all of the CONS who speculated(invented) what words Obama would say today… I am LAUGHING because he didnt say ANYTHING close to what all the CONS of this Blog were claiming late last week…
So, go try and spin dance your way through this by slinging mud at targets that dont now exist, and have never existed… Maybe you can get some of your mud to stick to a blank wall (cause a blank wall is all you have)
Laugh all you want. The controversy nationwide caused many school districts to not show the Obama TV, teachers and kids to stay home – and Obama to back down on asking for the kids to personally support him. He removed the God image and stuck to something basic.
Ain’t America grand!
Former House Speaker Gingrich said that the attacks on the speech are without merit. “It’s a good speech,” Gingrich said on NBC’s “Today” show,” adding that “I would love to have every child in America read it, think about it and learn that they should stay in school and they should study.” The former first lady told CNN that “there’s a place for the president of the United States to talk to schoolchildren and encourage schoolchildren” to stay in school. [brownlee]
Now AmWay even argues against two of his own!! LOL!!
American_Way,
The Dimlibs around here apparently never read the suggested work curriculum that WAS to go with the originally intended speech and was RETRACTED. That was quite a lot different than what was released yesterday and given today.
As one would expect, when called on it and place under scrutiny he cleaned it up and made it acceptable to all….which everyone agrees as presented today it was.
boxlock20 posted September 8, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“And therein lies the crux of the issue.
The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.”
And that pretty much IS what was he WAS going to do before being called on so harshly and dropping the suggested curriculum to go along with the speech.
————————-
boxlock20,
You said “is”, not “was” — and you were referring (and linking) to the “suggested curriculum”, “after it’s been toned down”.
Do you have trouble understandingwhat you wrote?
boxlock20 posted September 4, 2009 at 8:20 am
“The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.
PreK – 6:
http://media.nbclocalmedia.com/documents/Obama-Speech-Activities-prek-6.pdf
Grades 7 – 12:
http://media.nbclocalmedia.com/documents/Obama-Speech-Activities-7-12.pdf
And that’s after it’s been toned down and made less about ‘Obama the Supreme One’ than originally intended.“
“Ain’t America grand!”
No, not really. Too many narrow minded, stupid people. They are a problem. Pandering to them is not a solution.
American_Way posted September 8, 2009 at 2:06 pm
“and Obama to back down on asking for the kids to personally support him. He removed the God image and stuck to something basic.”
——————-
American_Way,
Do you have a link/copy of President Obama’s earlier speech, where he asked the “kids to personally support him”?
Aws I kin say, is thank God 259 had inservice day, and our chil’ren wasn’t exposed to the Obama mind meld!
An excerpt ” Ask not what Obama can do for you, but what you can do for Obama!”
Reports are flooding in around the country: “I just don’t recognize him anymore, he’s not the same child I put on the bus this morning! He came home locked himself in his bedroom for hours, claims he was studying and doing his homework, it’s just not like little Johnny! What did Obama do to him at school!”
You aren’t even intelligible comatose, do you know what you are talking about….obviously NOT!
If the collateral material was so innocent, why was it re-written? Ha ha!!!
Here’s what the Cato Institute had to say about the first version BEFORE it was pulled, and these are facts.
Neal McCluskey, associate director of the Center for Educational Freedomnmccluskey@cato.org:
It’s one thing for a president to encourage all kids to work hard and stay in school – that’s a reasonable use of the bully pulpit. It’s another thing entirely, however, to have the U.S. Department of Education send detailed instructions to public schools nationwide on how to glorify the president and the presidency, and push them to drive social change. Frighteningly, this is what President Obama has done.
In anticipation of the president’s planned September 8 address to students nationwide, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan sent a letter and detailed “classroom activities” to schools with all sorts of troubling buzzwords and guidance. In his letter, Duncan asserts that the work of educators is “critical to…our social progress.” It’s a statement that strongly suggests – as many educators have held and continue to hold – that it is the job of public schools to impose values, often collectivist, on students.
The fear that this might be the case is reinforced by classroom activities for pre-K-6 students that encourages children to make posters setting out “community and country” goals. Perhaps even more frightening is the lesson schools are pushed to teach that it is important to listen to “the President and other elected officials.” Possibly most distressing of all, though, is guidance that appears explicitly designed to glorify both the presidency and President Obama himself, encouraging schools to prepare for the speech “by reading books about presidents and Barack Obama.” And schools are told to ask students how president Obama will “inspire” them in his speech before he gives it, and how they were inspired after Obama has spoken.
This is very disturbing, making crystal clear the huge dangers of government controlling education. Ultimately, politicians will use power over education to indoctrinate children, something completely antithetical to a free society. And this is just the starkest manifestation of the inherent problem with government control of education. Every day free people are pitted against one another in defense of their freedom and basic values because they all have to support a single system of government schools. Evolution vs. creationism. Prayer in school. Books with offensive material in schools libraries. Decisions over whose history will be taught, and whose won’t. The curtailment of freedom goes on and on when government takes everyone’s money and provides schools with it. Which is why the only system of learning compatible with a truly free society is a system of school choice – public education, not schooling – in which the public assures that all people can access education, but parents are free to choose their children’s schools, and educators are free to educate how they wish.
Oh the horror!!! Students being asked to learn about our Presidents! /sarcasm OFF
——————–
boxlock20 posted September 4, 2009 at 8:20 am
“The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.
[links]
And that’s after it’s been toned down and made less about ‘Obama the Supreme One’ than originally intended.“
I just played the speech backwards and sure enough my worse fears came true. He was reading from Das Kapitol and it can only be deciphered when you play it backwards. Talk about those lousy commies being able to corrupt our kids with Godless socialism and they never even knew it! We’re in trouble, deep trouble.
Just thought of a money making enterprise, looking for investors: “The Official Obama Deprogramming Corporation” for a small stipend, we’ll deprogram your innocents who were exposed to the Obama school address”
Thinking the curriculum will include X-box access and instructions, coupled with unlimited face book and internet access.
If it’s played real fast it says replace the word America with Obama, when saying the Pledge of Allegiance! Rush and Beck were spot on about this guy!
According to U.S. Code 20, Section 3403, the Secretary of Education, or any officer, is forbidden to engage in “any direction, supervision, or control over the curriculum, program of instruction, administration, or personnel of any educational institution, school, or school system.”
Duncan’s department also has taken heat for proposed lesson plans distributed to accompany the speech. On Sunday, the secretary acknowledged that a section about writing to the president on how students can help him meet education goals was poorly worded. It was changed.
Lets see, Sunday was the 6th. Now comatose, how was my post on the 4th incorrect?
“The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.”
Rush will have Gingrich and Laura called on the carpet, and on their knees begging forgiveness for having the audacity to not drink the kool-aid!
What the dimlibs are saying now is pretty funny.
Their little Barry gets exposed nude, somebody quickly covers him up and then claims he never was nude. Very childish really, but that’s what we’ve come to expect from them I guess.
“The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie . . . but the myth.”
John F. Kennedy
Obama just set up a kid twitter page “Obama and Me”!
Disbelieve at your own peril.
boxlock20 posted September 8, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Lets see, Sunday was the 6th. Now comatose, how was my post on the 4th incorrect?
——————————
boxlock20,
YOU claimed on Sept. 4th:
“And that’s after it’s been toned down and made less about ‘Obama the Supreme One’ than originally intended.“
—————-
Are you claiming that you were “incorrect” on the 4th?
Are you claiming that this statement proves that the changes were not made until “Sunday”, the 6th?
“On Sunday, the secretary acknowledged that a section about writing to the president on how students can help him meet education goals was poorly worded. It was changed.”
———
Where does that say when it was changed?
Are you claiming that changes were made multiple times, like before/on the 4th, and again on the 6th?
And “meet[ing] education goals” is about those education goals, not Obama.
And what’s your point comatose….what IS your point.
Little Barry was caught as nude as the Emperor. His people at first scrambled to say he wasn’t nude, then got him clothed, and are now saying he never was naked.
He was trying to do something the law simply doesn’t allow, (U.S. Code 20, Section 3403, the Secretary of Education, or any officer, is forbidden to engage in “any direction, supervision, or control over the curriculum, program of instruction, administration, or personnel of any educational institution, school, or school system.”). And when caught quickly changed, and I believe ultimately pulled the curriculum guidelines altogether. As to the exact day or minute is irrelevant. None the less my post was correct in the essence of his mistake…AGAIN!
And by the way….you are looking pretty weak, and irrelevant, continuing to argue the point without bringing anything to refute the facts of the situation.
Oh….but carry on, we ALL know that’s you, irrelevant!
All schools, all colleges, have two great functions: to confer, and to conceal, valuable knowledge. The theological knowledge which they conceal cannot justly be regarded as less valuable than that which they reveal. That is, when a man is buying a basket of strawberries it can profit him to know that the bottom half of it is rotten.
- Notebook 1908, Mark Twain
There was no school in Wichita today.
I WILL expect to hear that the speech was taped for replay in my son’s school.
I’m also going to tell him that the President WANTED to bring a message of great hope but that the Republicans would not let him. He’ll never know any different.
Thanks, Cosmos, for the bone dig exposing the CON hypocrites as . . . uh . . . hypocrites.
GMC70 posted September 3, 2009 at 12:26 pm | Permalink
Obama is the perpetual campaign machine – it’s hard to imagine he will not use the opportunity to drive polical [sic] goals. If so, that’s inappropriate. We’ll have to wait and see.
Now that we waited and saw, will GMC be man enough to apologize for casting aspersions at the President for a fully appropriate message to our school kids?
We’ll have to wait and see . . .
BTW, Regular, what does the Twain quote have to do with the price of tea in China?
I’m curious BlueJay, when the Presidential campaign was in full play and Hillary Clinton was up against O’BAMA, you were throwing most all of the liberals under the bus for supporting O’BAMA.
I remember you crossing off several Blog Libs from your list.
CapnAmerica
Posted September 8, 2009 at 4:58 pm | Permalink
BTW, Regular, what does the Twain quote have to do with the price of tea in China?
—————-
You’re an English major, don’t you know how to interpret literature?
“I’m also going to tell him that the President WANTED to bring a message of great hope but that the Republicans would not let him. He’ll never know any different.”
Nothing like lying to your children. But then that is what I expect from certain people.
You caught that too, Hud? Yeah..it was a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to close Wichita schools today….at least it is according to bj.
figures.. Making absolutely no sense whatsoever, but then again, it is bj…and that is pretty much expected.
Here’re some excerpts from Barack Illych Lenin Obama’s speech today:
You’ll need the knowledge and problem-solving skills you learn in science and math to cure diseases like cancer and AIDS, and to develop new energy technologies and protect our environment. You’ll need the insights and critical thinking skills you gain in history and social studies to fight poverty and homelessness, crime and discrimination, and make our nation more fair and more free.
You’ll need the creativity and ingenuity you develop in all your classes to build new companies that will create new jobs and boost our economy.
We need every single one of you to develop your talents, skills and intellect so you can help solve our most difficult problems. If you don’t do that – if you quit on school – you’re not just quitting on yourself, you’re quitting on your country.
What a COMMUNIST!
If you CONs had any shame, you’d be totally begging for forgiveness for attacking this kind of public service.
But ye have none.
Yeah..it was a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to close Wichita schools today….at least it is according to bj.
I didn’t suggest any thing of the kind. I only noted that it was not an issue locally since the schools were not in session. I also aint sending my kid into the world unawares. Republicans are either not terribly bright or deliberately evil. He needs to know that.
September 8th – Calumny in the Classroom
There are 2,458 words in O’BAMA’s speech to students!
–That’s four pages of single spaced lip flapping.
—–
Let’s compare:
The Declaration of Independence is only 1337 words long.
There are 272 words in the Gettysburg Address.
————————-
Why does O’BAMA like to waste so much teleprompter time?
See? That’s the deal Capn.
They couldn’t stop talking about how it was wrong for Obama to give the speech. NOW they will not stop talking about what he said.
boxlock20,
My point was (and is) that you seemed to have contradicted your earlier Sept 4 post.
boxlock20 posted September 4, 2009 at 8:20 am
“The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.
[links]
And that’s after it’s been toned down and made less about ‘Obama the Supreme One’ than originally intended.“
———–
boxlock20 posted September 8, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“The emphasis is on Obama and what the kids can do for him. Don’t believe it….read it.”
And that pretty much IS what was he WAS going to do before being called on so harshly and dropping the suggested curriculum to go along with the speech.
———–
Was the curriculum in your Sept 4 links changed, or dropped?
uh…bj…do you even bother reading your own posts?
you posted:
“I’m also going to tell him that the President WANTED to bring a message of great hope but that the Republicans would not let him.”
after writing that Wichita schools were closed. Isn’t that a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to close the schools? Otherwise, just what exactly was the connection?
there I go again…expecting reason and logic from bj…I should know better. that is not possible.
Twain comments on religion:
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion–several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven….The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.
Alas! those good old days are gone, when a murderer could wipe the stain from his name and soothe his trouble to sleep simply by getting out his blocks and mortar and building an addition to a church.
Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions….there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions.
In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.
Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion.
Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.
Zeal and sincerity can carry a new religion further than any other missionary except fire and sword.
I have a religion–but you will call it blasphemy. It is that there is a God for the rich man but none for the poor…..Perhaps your religion will sustain you,will feed you–I place no dependence in mine. Our religions are alike, though, in one respect–neither can make a man happy when he is out of luck.
I do not know why we respect missionaries. Perhaps it is because they have not intruded here from Turkey or China or Polynesia to break our hearts by sapping away our children’s faith & winning them to the worshop of alien gods. We have lacked the opporutnity to find out how a parent feels to see his child deriding & blaspheming the religion of its ancestors. We have lacked the opportunity of hearing a foreign missionary who has been forced upon us against our will lauding his own saints & gods & saying harsh things about ours. If some time or other, we shall have these experiences, it will probably go hard with the missionary … The missionary has no wish to be an insulter, but how is he to help it? All his proposition are insults, word them as he may …
Twain comments on religion:
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion–several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven….The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.
Alas! those good old days are gone, when a murderer could wipe the stain from his name and soothe his trouble to sleep simply by getting out his blocks and mortar and building an addition to a church.
Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions….there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions.
In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.
Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion.
Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.
Zeal and sincerity can carry a new religion further than any other missionary except fire and sword.
I have a religion–but you will call it blasphemy. It is that there is a God for the rich man but none for the poor…..Perhaps your religion will sustain you,will feed you–I place no dependence in mine. Our religions are alike, though, in one respect–neither can make a man happy when he is out of luck.
I do not know why we respect missionaries. Perhaps it is because they have not intruded here from Turkey or China or Polynesia to break our hearts by sapping away our children’s faith & winning them to the worshop of alien gods. We have lacked the opporutnity to find out how a parent feels to see his child deriding & blaspheming the religion of its ancestors. We have lacked the opportunity of hearing a foreign missionary who has been forced upon us against our will lauding his own saints & gods & saying harsh things about ours. If some time or other, we shall have these experiences, it will probably go hard with the missionary … The missionary has no wish to be an insulter, but how is he to help it? All his proposition are insults, word them as he may …
Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion.
Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.
Zeal and sincerity can carry a new religion further than any other missionary except fire and sword.
I have a religion–but you will call it blasphemy. It is that there is a God for the rich man but none for the poor…..Perhaps your religion will sustain you,will feed you–I place no dependence in mine. Our religions are alike, though, in one respect–neither can make a man happy when he is out of luck.
I do not know why we respect missionaries. Perhaps it is because they have not intruded here from Turkey or China or Polynesia to break our hearts by sapping away our children’s faith & winning them to the worshop of alien gods. We have lacked the opporutnity to find out how a parent feels to see his child deriding & blaspheming the religion of its ancestors. We have lacked the opportunity of hearing a foreign missionary who has been forced upon us against our will lauding his own saints & gods & saying harsh things about ours. If some time or other, we shall have these experiences, it will probably go hard with the missionary … The missionary has no wish to be an insulter, but how is he to help it? All his proposition are insults, word them as he may …
Twain comments on religion:
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion–several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven….The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.
Alas! those good old days are gone, when a murderer could wipe the stain from his name and soothe his trouble to sleep simply by getting out his blocks and mortar and building an addition to a church.
Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions….there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions.
In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.
You are simply a baiting dumb ass cosmos.
I’m not playing your stupid game much longer.
Obama and company proposed to do something there are regulations against. His staff is too incompetent to even have known until all hell broke loose, then they try to act like nothing is wrong, and then change the suggested curriculum so it doesn’t violate the code, (U.S. Code 20, Section 3403). I’m not sure they didn’t pull it after redoing it completely.
If you are this interested you go research it, all you’re doing is baiting because you have NOTHING else…you are an increasingly insignificant poster cosmos, irrelevant and insignificant.
“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”
- Karl Marx, Preface to: A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s
Little Barry’s first draft (I suspect from the published suggested curriculum) and the suggested curriculum itself were self glorifying. It focused to great extent on him and what students could do for him to accomplish his goals.
Ha….that didn’t fly, and so we got what we got.
Wow, Obama gives a speech to the children of America, telling them to stay in school and study hard, and the relentless pursuit of stupidity continues as the right-wing wackos on this blog moan about what was changed and not said. Facts and truth seem to slip through the sieve that constitutes what’s left of the conservative mind.
“Isn’t that a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to close the schools? Otherwise, just what exactly was the connection?”‘
You seem to be the only person who made one. Sorry if I confused you. I try to keep my posts simple for you cons.
“Obama gives a speech to the children of America, telling them to stay in school and study hard,”–JMWalker
Yes, because he got caught and called on trying to glorify himself and encourage those kids to question themselves on what they could do for him.
Funny, he actually gave a pretty good address to them, BUT…as a result of those suspicious Cons.
When does Obama realize he MUST stop backing down to the right? Every time he does, they just get nastier and more demanding. That is just who they are.
boxlock20 posted September 8, 2009 at 5:36 pm
You are simply a baiting dumb ass cosmos.
I’m not playing your stupid game much longer.
. . .
If you are this interested you go research it, all you’re doing is baiting because you have NOTHING else…you are an increasingly insignificant poster cosmos, irrelevant and insignificant.
—————–
So you do not know if any changes were made to the curriculum since your Sept 4 links.
And you did contradict your earlier post.
You can’t even use any smarts or reason. Perhaps we need to just start rounding em up and locking em up in insane asylums since they can’t think straight anymore.
And Gingrich, well its too late. He was one who helped to create this hateful environment. So no, he does NOT get a gold star.
“Perhaps we need to just start rounding em up and locking em up in insane asylums since they can’t think straight anymore.”
I know the liberals are a bit wacky but I do not think we should be locking them up.
Give them a little while longer.
Ya gotta wonder if the right didn’t just get Bugs Bunnyed.
There is NOTHING so desirable as forbidden fruit. Those kids kept out of school or told not to watch the speech WILL find it. They’ll go looking for it on the internet.
What message are THEY gonna get? Mom and Dad DON’T want me to stay in school and do my best? THAT’S why they didn’t want me to see the speech?
The more the right-wing wackos moan about Obama, the clearer it becomes this is not about Obama the man, but Obama the BLACK man. It’s gone beyond common sense and elevated itself into the land of lunacy, and it’s owned by the racist right-wingers who have nothing better to do than whine like little girls. Take a time out, kids, and come back in, say, about twenty years when you all grow up.
What’s the difference between Adolph Hitler’s Nazi party and the right wing political movement?
Give up, Rush Limbough does not have a mustache.
You know, Southeast of Saline refused to play the Obama message, and you know what the two kids I know who attend that school came right in and asked if they could view it on the computer. I was so proud of them!
According to “U.S. Code 20, Section 3403″ there was NO violation to begin with… only in the minds of the ALL Against Obama, ALL the time… Of course those minds arent connected to REALITY…
JMWalker
Posted September 8, 2009 at 7:16 pm | Permalink
The more the right-wing wackos moan about Obama, the clearer it becomes this is not about Obama the man, but Obama the BLACK man. It’s gone beyond common sense and elevated itself into the land of lunacy, and it’s owned by the racist right-wingers who have nothing better to do than whine like little girls. Take a time out, kids, and come back in, say, about twenty years when you all grow up.
===========================================
I agree with you 100%… except for one thing.. their whining is WORSE than little girls… I raised two girls… I have experience…
The Racism — on this Blog — and in the entire country — does need to be stopped… It makes us the laughing stock of the entire Planet!!
It’s time to stand up to the Racists and let them know they arent only out of bounds, they are out of their freakin minds!!
#
grayfoxusaf
Posted September 8, 2009 at 7:20 pm | Permalink
What’s the difference between Adolph Hitler’s Nazi party and the right wing political movement?
====================================================
The right-wingers aren’t old enough to grow facial hair.
Hate Speech:
“Perhaps we need to just start rounding em up and locking em up in insane asylums since they can’t think straight anymore.”
“The more the right-wing wackos moan about Obama, the clearer it becomes this is not about Obama the man, but Obama the BLACK man.”
“I’m also going to tell him that the President WANTED to bring a message of great hope but that the Republicans would not let him. He’ll never know any different.”
================
You fuqers are nuts.
Chas pulls the race card again without evidence.
What a surprise.
Right from the DailyKos playbook.
WHO pulled the race card, Johnson??
It wasnt me… I simply agreed with it…
What the WE didn’t say about Gingrich’s interview:
ON HealthCare:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112656990
Gingrich: I don’t believe it’s intellectually possible to take 18 percent of the economy, of the largest economy in the world — life and death for every individual — and, in one sweeping bill, change all of it. First of all, no one knows enough to do this; and second, you arouse so many opponents you just can’t get it done.
I think if they would take — and this is what I suggested to Mrs. Clinton — if they would take five to seven smaller bills, take one on litigation reform to lower the cost of defensive medicine and to save billions of dollars; take one on fixing Medicare and Medicaid so we are not paying billions to crooks who are not delivering services; have one on prevention and wellness; have one on better practices.
“Right from the DailyKos playbook.”
That race card is being thrown around more freely all the time by libs. The more they loose – the more they cry fowl the only way they know how.
It is very revealing about the use of that special card.
And:
Although, if you were talking about four or five smaller bills that would be passed over, let’s just say, four or five years, and they would have a real and serious effect on delivery of health care in this country, why not put them all together and make one comprehensive bill?
Because the minute you start putting together a 1,300-page bill, you have no idea what the different sections are like, how they interact with each other. And, in order to get enough votes, you end up buying people in for bizarre reasons and giving away goodies, and all of a sudden you have a political monstrosity.
Chas
Posted September 8, 2009 at 8:48 pm | Permalink
WHO pulled the race card, Johnson??
It wasnt me… I simply agreed with it…
———————-
Where’s the evidence to support your position?
Chas has nothing.
Full of hot hateful dailykos air.
Obama’s healthcare plan is failing based on its merits, and Americans do not like his plan. You can’t blame that on race or anything other then ObamaCare s u c k s.
“So you do not know if any changes were made to the curriculum since your Sept 4 links.
And you did contradict your earlier post.”—cosmos
Yes, they changed and then dropped them as written, and no I didn’t contradict myself at all.
The study guide was revised, then when the text of the speech was released Mon. the 7th. the guide did not accompany it at all. That is changing things cosmos. Now get over it.
“The controversy surrounding Barack Obama’s speech to students today continued to intensify over the weekend. Big Media repeatedly reported that conservatives were “overreacting” and “attacking the President’s speech unfairly.” What the media failed to report was that conservatives were upset not about the content of Obama’s speech, but about the study guide on which the White House worked hand-in-hand with the Department of Education. (This may well be a violation of federal law.) Having students write letters themselves asking how they can help the president has no place in our nation’s classrooms, regardless of whether the president is a Democrat or Republican.”
“Anger over the president’s education address prompted the Department of Education to revise a suggestion that children write a letter on how they could help the president. Instead, the agency suggested they write a letter on how they could meet their own education goals.”
Then even those were excluded on release of the text.
Secretary of Education Arne Duncan acknowledged on CBS’s “Face the Nation” Sunday that some of the materials provided to local school officials were poorly worded and may have lead to some confusion about the speech’s goals.” And were dropped.
This whole thing was simply another incompetent performance out of the Obama group leading up to what turned out to be a fair speech.
All because they got caught and called on it, and made it innocuous for everybody. But they couldn’t do that on their own, it took a nation of patriot Cons.
Right, “Boxlock20″ –
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
boxlock20 posted September 8, 2009 at 9:53 pm
The study guide was revised, then when the text of the speech was released Mon. the 7th. the guide did not accompany it at all.
——————–
boxlock20,
Wasn’t the study guide released after it was revised?
Wasn’t the revised (and released) study guide what you posted on Sept. 4?
There was no need to release the same revised study guide a second time only a few days later, on Sept. 7.
So you did contradict your earlier post.
Turns out the early draft of the study guide was leaked to for-profit health insurance lobbyists and they astro-turfed the “outrage” before the final draft was released.
But consider the power of “Boxlock20,” who went on his little hissey fit over Labor Day weekend and changed the course of history and President Obama’s subversive speech to “do your homework and stay in school.”
“Wasn’t the study guide released after it was revised?”—comatose, hey wake up jerk
And then completely left off of the Monday release of the speech. Ha ha, too funny.
Oh Monkey, I hate taking full credit, I mean I was just one of millions that blogged and emailed and brought about a change in the suggested curriculum and undoubtedly the speech itself. But I sure worked on it.
Who knows but it’s probably a very safe bet this would have been in the televised version of the speech to kids had we not…..he gave it prior to the cameras being on at
Obama Pitched Universal Health Care to Students in Meeting Prior to His Speech on Education
(CNSNews.com) – Prior to his nationally broadcast speech to students on Tuesday, President Barack Obama made a pitch for health care reform in a discussion with 40 freshmen at Wakefield High School in Arlington, Va.
The president traveled to Wakefield High to give a speech on education reform. The speech was posted in advance on the White House Web site to quell fears that the president intended to plug his political agenda to impressionable minds.
Although the president avoided controversial topics in his speech, he did promote health care reform in a face-to-face discussion at Wakefield High School.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/53712
Oh….that sneaky socialist!!!
Should have finished the sentence: “he gave it prior to the cameras being on at Wakefield High School in Arlington, Va.”
boxlock20,
There was no need to release the same revised study guide a second time only a few days later, on Sept. 7.
So you did contradict your earlier post.
They completely dropped it dumbsh*t, that’s changing it.
There was no need to release the same revised study guide a second time only a few days later, on Sept. 7.
They did NOT include at all in the release of the speech….why, because they got burned so bad on it they dropped the idea of a study guide completely.
If they thought it valuable, they would have included in along with the text of the speech for completeness. But NO they did NOT. That is a change…..dropping it altogether is a change.
Now go away, you are nothing more significant at this point in the matter than a pesty little twerp.
The suggested study guide was produced by the Teaching Ambassador Fellows, U.S. Department of Education.?
The prepared remarks of Obama’s speech was from the White House (link in header).
There was no need to release the same revised study guide a second time only a few days later, on Sept. 7.
They buried it, ha! And that is changed!
boxlock20,
There was no need to release the same revised study guide a second time only a few days later.
So you did contradict your earlier post.
Box,
It isn’t worth it. We all saw what the study guide said.
You are right, cosmo is wrong (big shocker there) and she will never admit it. She will find a misplaced comma or apostrophe and claim victory.
You know how anaI some school girls can get.
soldevvb posted September 9, 2009 at 1:19 pm
We all saw what the study guide said.
———————
Yes, they released the revised study guide, and there was no need to release it a second time.
boxlock20 contradicted her/his earlier post.
boxlock20 contradicted her/his earlier post.
The Gestapo is prepping his torture chamber in the gulag as we speak.
Right Sol, the little mouse faced cosoms, at least that’s how I have him visualized from the irrelevance of his posts, thinks that dropping the use of the guide is somehow different than changing it as they had to once.
Sol,
You’re right…twerps like cosmos aren’t worth it, especially when all they are doing is baiting.
It was a good speech.
The President is a brilliant politician.
Actions speak louder than words. Policy wise he’s a disaster for Democracy.
boxlock20 posted September 9, 2009 at 4:07 pm
“. . .thinks that dropping the use of the guide is somehow different than changing it as they had to once.
————————-
boxlock20,
You have not proven that the Teaching Ambassador Fellows dropped the use of the guide.
Yada yada yada cosmos…..ha!
I think I have, they didn’t think enough of it to include it with the release of the speech even.
boxlock20 posted September 9, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Yada yada yada cosmos…..ha!
I think I have, they didn’t think enough of it to include it with the release of the speech even.
———————-
boxlock20, you do not think very clearly.
President Obama’s transcript, video, and the links to what you claimed were “dropped” Classroom Activites are linked at the top of the www .ed.gov home page.
The direct link,
‘President Barack Obama Makes Historic Speech to America’s Students‘
http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html
“The U.S. Department of Education invites students of all ages, teachers, and administrators to participate in this historic moment by watching the president’s address, which is available above and on the White House Web site (http://www.whitehouse.gov/mediaresources/). We also encourage educators to use this moment to help students get focused and inspired to begin the new academic year. The Department of Education offers educators a menu of classroom activities — created by its teachers-in-residence, the Teaching Ambassador Fellows — to help engage students in the address and stimulate classroom discussions about the importance of education.
To learn more, please see the following:
* Additional Frequently Asked Questions (September 4)
* Frequently Asked Questions (September 3)
* Classroom Activities (Pre-K – 6)
download files PDF (115K) | MS Word (119K)
* Classroom Activities (7 – 12)
download files PDF (170K) | MS Word (184K) “
Poor cosmos, this becomes the most important thing in her petty obsessive life.
I believe if you look….that is the post video of the speech, and yes the ‘changed’ suggested curriculum did show up there, after they were totally embarrassed by their first attempt with much of the country not only not going to use it but not even watch the speech or video.
Our school didn’t….ha. Of course they already score in the upper 90+ percentile on scholastic tests.
boxlock20,
Or you can go to this link, and click on the image of President Obama that has the “My Education, My Future” in the background.
http://www.ed.gov/index.jhtml
Well well cosmos, it does in fact appear that changes to “Menu of Classroom Activities” were made maybe several times before the final draft right before the speech, exactly as I said.
Here cosmos is one edition released AFTER, get it AFTER, they took out that ridiculous ‘what can you do for the President crap’ 1st revision several days ago, and then the final one you provided a link to.
After the first revision:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10648471/Obama%E2%80%99s-Address-to-Students-Across-America-September-8-2009-Menu-of-Classroom-Activities-7-12
And after some other revisions and the final one:
http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/7-12.pdf
So, this is settled, and I am quite bored with both the subject and with you cosmos.
PS: Oh and cosmos, the link you provided in your post at at 6:12 pm has been taken down or doesn’t work….seems they change things quite a lot, uh cosmos?
“The U.S. Department of Education invites students of all ages, teachers, and administrators to participate in this historic moment by watching the president’s address, which is available above and on the White House Web site (http://www.whitehouse.gov/mediaresources/).
boxlock20,
The comparison is between the pdf versions that you posted earlier which is at links copy/pasted here,
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/09/gingrich-bush-defend-school-speech/#comment-656595
and the current .gov version.
I compared your sources that I downloaded earlier, to the .gov ones, and don’t see any content changes — only some formatting changes in the ‘Grade 7-12 guide, like sentences that were converted to a heading/bullet points structure. And the seal was added.
If you find some significant content changes, would you please copy/paste them here.
And my 6:12 pm link still works.
‘President Barack Obama Makes Historic Speech to America’s Students‘
http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html
Nope!!! There are distinct difference in the wording and sentence structure in various parts.
Little cosmos….THOSE ARE CHANGES, NO WAY AROUND IT cosmos. You lose on this one.
Remember cosmos, you were hitting me up on stupid little details that had nothing to do with content before, on batteries or something. Now wiggle out of your own net.
Ya know cosmos, I would think of you as a twerp, and call you such…..except you ARE when you act like you do so much of the time.
Now I’m done, the bell has rung….and you lost this one…..Those were the changes I was talking about.
Not that one dunce, and you know it, quit playing your stupid games.
The one I put in my post informing you it didn’t work. Here it is again:
“which is available above and on the White House Web site (http://www.whitehouse.gov/mediaresources/).“
Ooops. . . the ed.gov site didn’t cap the M and R letters.
This works, and has links back to what boxlock20 claimed were the “dropped” Classroom Activities guides.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/
“This works, and has links back to what boxlock20 claimed were the “dropped” Classroom Activities guides.”–cosmos
No no….not “claimed”, ‘WERE’ is the proper word. At least the original guide that got shot down. Once cleaned up, more than once as I said, then it was used.
No good night cosmos….don’t feel too bad we all know you have your own ’special set of challenges’ to overcome. You’ll get better as you grow up I’m sure.
‘
No= ‘Now’Oh and cosmos, are you saying that “the ed.gov site” made a MISTAKE posting their own link? Or was that your’s.
Ha.
boxlock20 posted September 9, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Oh and cosmos, are you saying that “the ed.gov site” made a MISTAKE posting their own link? Or was that your’s.
————————-
boxlock20,
Were you unable to compare my copy/paste to the source? Did you need instructions?
The whitehouse .gov link is NOT the ed .gov ’s “own link”.
And the link with lower case “m” and “r” seems to work today.
The header at the top of the thread has a working link to President Obama’s speech.
It was obvious that the ed.gov page hadn’t capped the “M” and “R” — some servers are case sensitive re URL’s.
Nope….the link you provided doesn’t work….again, ha! The link you provided actually does work in a way….it takes you to a page that has been taken down. Wonder why they did that, think because they changed the content and didn’t want the first one up? I do. Here it is copied right from your post:
(http://www.whitehouse.gov/mediaresources/)
Besides cosmos, it makes no difference. The essence of my claim HAS been proven true. The suggested curriculum HAS been changed on more than one occasion, and although it is listed and linked to on the government’s page now, it is altered from both the original, and even a later rewrite, and the link to the original was taken down.
It’s settled, bye!
Now it directs you to the new page where it didn’t, even just this morning.
Click on your posted link in the middle of the lower paragraph, your post at ‘September 9, 2009 at 6:12 pm’, and it comes up that it’s been removed and shows this.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/404/?
Wow, they just keep changing it….wonder why?
boxlock20,
The whitehouse .gov link in your 1:13 pm post works for me.
And the page has not been “taken down”.
Some content from your link:
“THE PRESIDENT’S BACK-TO-SCHOOL MESSAGE TO AMERICA’S STUDENTS
Help get America’s students engaged! On Tuesday, September 8 — the first day of school for many students — the President will talk directly to students across the country on the importance of taking responsibility for their education, challenging them to set goals and do everything they can to succeed.
. . .
Classroom Engagement Resources
* Menu of classroom activities for students in grades preK-6 to stimulate discussion on the importance of education in students’ lives
* Menu of classroom activities for students in grades 7-12 to stimulate discussion on the importance of education in students’ lives“
boxlock20 posted September 10, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Now it directs you to the new page where it didn’t, even just this morning.
Click on your posted link in the middle of the lower paragraph, your post at ‘September 9, 2009 at 6:12 pm’, and it comes up that it’s been removed and shows this.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/404/?
Wow, they just keep changing it….wonder why?
—————————————
The WordPress software seems to have a problem with links ending with “/” enclosed inside “( ).” — it appends the trailing “)” to the link.
“The WordPress software seems to have a problem with links ending with “/” enclosed inside “( ).” — it appends the trailing “)” to the link.”
Thanks, I didn’t know that. I’ll look for it next time a link doesn’t work.
Hum…..I think this is the first exchange of posts we’ve had where we haven’t been snitty (a combination of snotty and shi++y) toward the other. That’s nice. Maybe we should end this thread while we’re ahead….
boxlock20,
You should end the thread by posting your important discovery — the CHANGES in the grade 7 -12 guide. Looks like it’s mostly in the “Before the Speech” section, and there’s a “who” > “whom” later.
Comments wont be closed until Oct 8.
The point is cosmos, you nit-pick just about everything, ragging on folks for minor things, and I simply proved there were changes made just as I said. Were they big, not after the first revision when they took ‘The One’ down a little as the center and focus of the message, but none the less they made changes up to the point they put them up right before the speech.
Now can we go on to other things to argue about, I can always get nasty again but prefer not.
Hey cosmos?
Carry him a few more rounds before ya drop him.
boxlock20,
My pointing out that your “batteries” post was inaccurate was not nit-picking”.
In the first place my battery post wasn’t inaccurate. Hybrid cars today use NiMH, Lithium isn’t ready except for plug in only cars, and those are few and far between and those simply don’t fulfill most peoples needs. Lithium needs to be completely discharged only occasionally but for the ‘fuel gauge’ to function accurately it must be done regularly.
“Every hybrid automobile in production today uses NiMH batteries, all of which are produced outside of the United States. As pointed out in a recent Union of Concerned Scientists newsletter, these NiMH batteries have been performing extremely well, even though most are far smaller in capacity than drivers would like. However, nearly every auto manufacturer that has announced future production of a plug-in hybrid or fully electric automobile claim their vehicles must run on Li Ion batteries. With the exception of the Tesla and AC Propulsion limited implementations, Li Ion batteries have no track record in traction applications. Yet the Panasonic EV-95 NiMH battery packs used in fully electric Toyota RAV4 EV mini-SUV’s have demonstrated lifetimes in excess of nine years and average vehicle miles in excess of 100,000 miles. Some technologists anticipate only a 50,000-mile lifetime for Li Ion batteries.”
http://sefora.org/2009/02/26/nimh-batteries-chevron-patents-and-the-future-of-plug-in-hybrid-cars-2/
So, there are lots of problems to over come and your battery switching station doesn’t exist except in demonstration model which is worthless in application for people needing to recharge their car.
So yes cosmos, you were then and are again nit-picking.
“So yes cosmos, you were then, and are again, nit-picking.”
And might I add….that just seems to be you I guess!
But look on the bright side….you have a person of BlueJay’s character rooting for you.
Ha ha, that would cause clinical depression for me.
boxlock20,
You are just repeating your old illogical arguments.
You are claiming that the Li-ion batteries that are not harmed by partial recharging are harmed by partial recharging, because they are in limited use.
And your Feb 2009 source is out of date.
“You are claiming that the Li-ion batteries that are not harmed by partial recharging are harmed by partial recharging, because they are in limited use.”
Are you really that stupid that you can’t understand I am not saying that at all. I am saying that although Lithium-Ion, the battery itself, may not be harmed by partial recharging the mechanisms for measuring the remaining charge, which is absolutely necessary in vehicle applications, requires the batteries be deep cycled occasionally to remain accurate.
Go back dummy and read my post and link to the article that clearly points that out.
Damn cosmos, I have to this point simply thought you weird…not necessarily dumb, but you are making me rethink that.
cosmos = rope
Boxlock = dope
Here dummy, I had no confidence in you being able to find it and bring it here intact.
“Although lithium-ion is memory-free in terms of performance deterioration, batteries with fuel gauges exhibit what engineers refer to as “digital memory”. Here is the reason: Short discharges with subsequent recharges do not provide the periodic calibration needed to synchronize the fuel gauge with the battery’s state-of-charge. A deliberate full discharge and recharge every 30 charges corrects this problem. Letting the battery run down to the cut-off point in the equipment will do this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate.
Aging of lithium-ion is an issue that is often ignored. A lithium-ion battery in use typically lasts between 2-3 years. The capacity loss manifests itself in increased internal resistance caused by oxidation. Eventually, the cell resistance reaches a point where the pack can no longer deliver the stored energy although the battery may still have ample charge. For this reason, an aged battery can be kept longer in applications that draw low current as opposed to a function that demands heavy loads.”
Cars are very very high current use, NOT low like lithium-ion excels at.
Present technology uses NiMH Hybrid Car Batteries (Nickel Metal-Hydride), much heavier and they do have some memory effect.
Next on the list of up-and-coming hybrid vehicle technology, the Lithium battery is currently powering small handheld devices such as laptops and cell phones. Lithium batteries have a higher capacity than other types of batteries, and they are also made more cheaply. Lithium batteries could enable hybrid cars to go much longer distances without using a single drop of gasoline, for distances anywhere from 50-100 miles. Although most hybrids are not plug-in models, this would be required with the current technology if these types of batteries were to be used. Another problem with these batteries is that they use cobalt in their formulas, which tends to explode. Automakers are scrambling to find an alternative to cobalt which would provide the same amount of power.
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
And NiMH are infact affected by ‘memory’ to some degree.
“When introduced in the early 1990s, nickel-metal-hydride was promoted as being memory-free. Today, we know that this chemistry is also affected but to a lesser degree than nickel-cadmium.
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-33.htm
Now cosmos, you have no arms and legs left to fight with, and look ridiculous with your continued arguments. Don’t make a bigger fool of yourself than you have.
And BlueJay has no idea what the hell anybody is even talking about, do ya shrimp….ha! You looked pretty insignificant standing on that street corner. I noticed no body too close or talking to you, ha….no surprise.
boxlock20,
Please explain why you cannot understand that I was posting about possible solutions to some complaints that American_Way had raised, which I included in my post here?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/09/open-thread-95-3/#comment-654866
I linked to a group that has developed, tested, and demonstrated the points that I listed.
boxlock20 posted September 10, 2009 at 8:44 pm
. . .
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-33.htm
[ Created: March 2003, Last edited: July 2003 ]
Now cosmos, you have no arms and legs left to fight with, and look ridiculous with your continued arguments. Don’t make a bigger fool of yourself than you have.
————————-
Many billions of dollars has been put into Li-ion R & D since early 2003.
boxlock20 uses an old source to futilely try to prove that major auto makers are not currently planning production using Li-ion batteries.
Last copyright 2005, not so old, and the physics of the batteries hasn’t changed and won’t.
Let see you refute one thing my “old source” claims about this subject.
Let’s see, just how many of these cars cosmos dreams about are getting people around, in a practical manner today….ha ha ha. How many are pulling into batter changing stations and continuing on their way. The only thing working today are hybrids using NiMH….
Your turn cosmos, continue to frail away.
boxlock20 posted September 10, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Let’s see, just how many of these cars cosmos dreams about are getting people around, in a practical manner today….ha ha ha. How many are pulling into batter changing stations and continuing on their way. The only thing working today are hybrids using NiMH….
————————
boxlock20,
Please explain why you cannot understand that I was posting about possible solutions to some complaints that American_Way had raised, which I included in my post here?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/09/open-thread-95-3/#comment-654866
I linked to a group that has developed, tested, and demonstrated the points that I listed.
Refute? please tell us what kind of battery the Nissan Leaf uses.
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/news.jsp#/news
Yeah, well that is all well and good but your idea doesn’t actually exist where anyone can actually utilize it. It’s simply a concept, and just like concept cars have always resulted in fun things to look at and think about very few actually see production.
Maybe it will, maybe it won’t….none the less it is of no help to me or anyone else now so I’m not about to fiddle with a plug in Lithium car that can’t go very far and requires a lot of time to recharge, it’s just not practical in the least.
And, remember cosmos….energy isn’t free, something is going to have to produce it so the savings may or may not come as cheaply or as environmentally friendly as you may think.
“Makin’ telephone calls without wires? Impossible!” — “Boxlock19″
“Sending a letter over telephone wires? Impossible!” — “Boxlock18″
“A whole movie on a little bitty disk? Impossible!” — “Boxlock17″
“A man on the Moon? Impossible!” — “Boxlock15″
“A candy mint AND a breath mint? Impossible!” — “Boxlock 12″
And Monkey there are FAR FAR MORE ideas that NEVER made it.
I have not said lets not research and develop new technologies, I simply think people like cosmos and apparently you are incredibly foolish to want to abandon what we have before we have it replaced. Or to cap and tax us into 3rd world economic status for political ideology reasons, or to have the government taking over and eventually stifling capitalistic innovations.
This whole exchange with cosmos has been brought on by his/her dogged criticism of what I have said, and cosmos has been thoroughly dragged through the dirt of that effort by the proof, including links, that prove what I said was correct. Think you can do better….get in line.
Oh, and I forgot Monkey….you continue to prove by example you are a LIAR!
I have never said or thought any of the things you posted above….not one.
You are reduced to making up lies to compete on this stage apparently….that’s the mark of a big loser.
You’ll note, “Boxlock20″ –
I didn’t quote “Boxlock20″ in that post.
Damn. You wouldn’t recognize subtlety if it slapped you in the face.
“I didn’t quote “Boxlock20? in that post. “–the Chimp
The insinuation was there and obvious dumbass.
boxlock20 posted September 11, 2009 at 7:16 am
“Yeah, well that is all well and good but your idea doesn’t actually exist where anyone can actually utilize it. It’s simply a concept, and just like concept cars have always resulted in fun things to look at and think about very few actually see production.”
——————
You believe that Nissan and other companies did not build test vehicles, and “actually utilize” them, before they “actually” decided to build expensive factories for “production”?
“Maybe it will, maybe it won’t….none the less it is of no help to me or anyone else now so I’m not about to fiddle with a plug in Lithium car that can’t go very far and requires a lot of time to recharge, it’s just not practical in the least.”
——————
The users of the test vehicles, Nissan, and other auto makers disagree with you.
“And, remember cosmos….energy isn’t free, something is going to have to produce it so the savings may or may not come as cheaply or as environmentally friendly as you may think.”
——————
Which is why Better Place is planning to buy renewable energy in bulk, and control the charging stations.
boxlock20 posted September 11, 2009 at 8:14 am
“. . . I simply think people like cosmos and apparently you are incredibly foolish to want to abandon what we have before we have it replaced.”
——————
boxlock20, you’re a liar. I never said or implied that we should “abandon what we have before we have it replaced”. I posted possible solutions to some complaints that American_Way had raised.
“ Or to cap and tax us into 3rd world economic status for political ideology reasons, or to have the government taking over and eventually stifling capitalistic innovations.”
——————
Caps and carbon taxes will encourage higher energy efficiency, which will improve our economy.
Extensively, intensely researched science is not “political ideology”.
Governments are encouraging “capitalistic innovations”, like plug-in vehicles.
“This whole exchange with cosmos has been brought on by his/her dogged criticism of what I have said, and cosmos has been thoroughly dragged through the dirt of that effort by the proof, including links, that prove what I said was correct.”
——————
You made inaccurate statements about battery switching and Li-ion batteries.
Reality, Nissan, and other auto-makers prove that what you said was incorrect.
“Caps and carbon taxes will encourage higher energy efficiency, which will improve our economy.”
Bull S., it will wreck the economy
“Extensively, intensely researched science is not “political ideology”.”
Bull S., used and twisted for political purposes it is.
“Governments are encouraging “capitalistic innovations”, like plug-in vehicles.”
Bull S., at the only in the direction the government wants to take us and not necessarily the best way either.
“You made inaccurate statements about battery switching and Li-ion batteries.
Reality, Nissan, and other auto-makers prove that what you said was incorrect.”–cosmos
You talk big cosmos, but it’s all talk, you brought nothing to prove me wrong while I did just the opposite and did bring links to factual information proving me correct.
All this innovation you sight is simply project prototype stuff, show me something that actually is in use and works to fill normal peoples needs.
There aren’t any now, and possibly never.
Child….try again!
“Bull S.,
at theonly in the direction the government wants to take us”“Automobiles are just a fad, son. Stick to the buggy-whip business.” — “Boxlock3,” 1908
““Automobiles are just a fad, son. Stick to the buggy-whip business.” — “Boxlock3,” 1908″–the Chimp
And again the chimp finds it necessary to use a lie to even try and stay in the game.
The mark of a loser.
All that the liar boxlock20 has is “Bull S”.
boxlock20 posted September 11, 2009 at 8:14 am
“. . . I simply think people like cosmos and apparently you are incredibly foolish to want to abandon what we have before we have it replaced.”
——————
boxlock20, you’re a liar. I never said or implied that we should “abandon what we have before we have it replaced”. I posted possible solutions to some complaints that American_Way had raised.
Wow cosmos, you really have lost it here finally.
I can see where you might be a little upset, or certainly embarrassed at least, getting dragged around and getting all that sand pack up your butt making accusations and unable to back any of it up with fact or references, but looks like you’ve really gone over the edge now.
I think that might do it for this thread….I don’t play with emotional crazies.
boxlock20,
Running away is a good strategy for you, since you can’t support your claims.
For example, you can’t refute the fact that Nissan, Ford, and other major auto-makers have been testing Li-ion batteries, and are confident enough to begin mass-production using them.
You think that copy/pastes of old July 2003 web pages refute that reality.
“Running away is a good strategy for you, since you can’t support your claims.”–cosmos
I most certaily did support my claims ya mental midget! It is you that talks up a storm and can’t support yours.
Simply look at the links provided by me supporting all I said, then look at yours…….oh….there aren’t any. Ha ha ha!!!
“You think that copy/pastes of old July 2003 web pages refute that reality.”—comatose
See ya have to lie, the copyright was 2003–2005, meaning updated 2005….there you go again. It makes you look very feeble in your argument when you have to lie cosmos.
And as I said the physics of both NiMH and Lithium change very little. Some constraints can be overcome but not all certainly, as I pointed out and referenced unlike you cosmos.
And sure auto manufacturers are “testing”, but that can be, and probably is, a long way from universal application and desirability by consumers.
Now go watch some more Star Trek cosmos, and take your thumb out of your mouth child.
And cosmos, becoming mind numbingly bored with you and your babble is not running away….it’s having more engaging things to do….this has run it’s course so accept you’ve been made to look shall we say less than informed inspite of what you think of yourself.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/09/gingrich-bush-defend-school-speech/comment-page-4/#comment-658713
I just looked again, according to you my reference that you say is old, 2003, well…THATS WHEN IT CAME ABOUT DUMMY!
The heading says, “BatteryUniversity.com , since 2003, the articles have keep current.
You better quit while you down cosmos it just keeps getting uglier for you.
‘Nissan rolls out new electric car‘
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8180333.stm
“The heading says, “BatteryUniversity.com , since 2003, the articles have
keepkept current.”Oh, I see what you did picking a page that was done in 2003. Other pages read like this “Created:September 2006, Last edited: February 2007
You see apparently they update as technology or information changes and only when necessary.
The website is current cosmos, got it.
Just keeps getting dirtier for you doesn’t it.
Gee, I hope this doesn’t happen to you cosmos in your new electric car. Look down the page to the burned laptop.
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5B.htm
And cosmos, what does this mean?
“The monthly cost of the battery, plus the electric charge, will be less than the cost of gasoline,” Mr Ghosn said.
I should hope to shout, with all the disadvantages. It better be a whole lot cheaper or it’s not worth it.
Electric cars have struggled to become mainstream because of limited battery life and high costs.”
I hope they are successful, but for most people this isn’t the answer. Small, little room for people or things, can’t go far, takes time to recharge….wow, doesn’t sound too great to me.
It does look neat though. But a range of 100 miles….worthless to me.
Here is is:
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/battery.jsp#/battery
boxlock20 posted September 10, 2009 at 8:44 pm
“Lithium batteries could enable hybrid cars to go much longer distances without using a single drop of gasoline, for distances anywhere from 50-100 miles.”
And cosmos, they claim “This is electric – 100%. That means it burns zero gas and produces zero emissions.”
Maybe it doesn’t produce emissions itself, but what produces the electricity to charge it does. Unless of course you only drive or charge on windy days and have a bunch of wind generators around.
boxlock20 posted September 11, 2009 at 4:40 pm
But a range of 100 miles….worthless to me.
———————-
Okay. . . then don’t use your car if you only need to travel 100 miles, or less.
Finish the sentence and paragraph cosmos instead of pulling just part of it out. That’s deceptively dishonest cosmos….go ask you mother about that.
“Lithium batteries could enable hybrid cars to go much longer distances without using a single drop of gasoline, for distances anywhere from 50-100 miles.” Although most hybrids are not plug-in models, this would be required with the current technology if these types of batteries were to be used. Another problem with these batteries is that they use cobalt in their formulas, which tends to explode. Automakers are scrambling to find an alternative to cobalt which would provide the same amount of power.
boxlock20 posted September 11, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Unless of course you only drive or charge on windy days and have a bunch of wind generators around.
—————-
Already discussed.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/09/gingrich-bush-defend-school-speech/comment-page-4/#comment-659100
‘Safer Lithium-Ion Batteries
Friday, August 25, 2006‘
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/17362/?a=f
“Lithium Cobalt LiCoO2
Lithium Cobalt is a mature, proven, industry-standard battery technology that provides long cycle life and very high energy density. The polymer design makes the cells inherently safer than “canned” construction cells that can leak acidic electrolyte fluid under abusive conditions. The cell voltage is typically 3.7 Volts. Cells using this chemistry are available from a wide range of manufacturers.
The use of Cobalt is unfortunately associated with environmental and toxic hazards.”
http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithiumS.htm
“Which is why Better Place is planning to buy renewable energy in bulk, and control the charging stations.”–cosmos
cosmos, they can contract ahead for the energy but they can’t store it. Electricity is generated and used real time so if more is needed and the wind isn’t blowing….they use coal or gas.
And that’s makes the energy the car uses much less zero emission. It may not emit emissions itself, but the energy produced and used to charge it does.
“Usually lithium ion cells cost anywhere from $450 to $1000 per kwh. That puts the pack alone somewhere between $10,000 and $24,000. Though most writers are assuming its $10,000 Nissan has not publicly confirmed this. And although Nissan has not formally announced it, we expect them to lease the battery separately from the rest of the car, and charge buyers a monthly battery leasing fee.
Thus we would expect that the monthly payment for the car,the monthly battery lease fee, and the cost of the electricity to make its run, should wind up less than or equal to a gas powered car of the same size and trim level.
Do your own math.”
Doesn’t sound all that great to me for such and expensive car.
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1033846_2011-nissan-leaf-price
Excerps from different articles:
“The Leaf draws power from a 24 kilowatt-hour battery pack comprised of 192 lithium-manganese cells. The pack, developed with NEC, is laid out flat beneath the floor to maximize interior room. Nissan claims the car has a range of 100 miles, but one EV expert we spoke to tonight said 70 is probably more realistic given the size of the pack.”
Nissan says the battery recharges in
foureight hours when you plug it into a 220-volt line — the same kind your dryer runs on. Plug it into a standard 110-volt and you’re looking at twice that long. The car has a quick-charge capability that will let you get up to 80 percent charge in less than 30 minutes, but Nissan didn’t say what kind of power you’ll need. We’re guessing 480 volts at 100 amps.”Wow, that will be convenient….NOT.
“….hybrids, unlike EVs, aren’t hindered by short driving ranges, use batteries that cost a fraction of the cost of electric cars and don’t require billions of dollars of public subsidy.”
“…but they can’t store it.” [BOXLOCK]
WELL AT LEAST NOT YET… GIVE EM A FEW YEARS IN R & D…. IT’LL GET THERE…
boxlock20 posted September 11, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Wow, that will be convenient….NOT.
——————-
80% recharging in 30 minutes at work, shopping centers, and other charging station locations would not be convenient?
BTW: PHEV’s using Li-ion batteries will also be produced in the next few years.
According to U.S. Code 20, Section 3403, the Secretary of Education, or any officer, is forbidden to engage in “any direction, supervision, or control over the curriculum, program of instruction, administration, or personnel of any educational institution, school, or school system.” [BOXLOCK]
That code has NOTHING to do with the “suggested” classroom activities suggested by the DofE and Mr. Obama…. Thus, there is NO VIOLATION….
I think I have a pretty good idea of why they took it out… I will know more later… :-)
“80% recharging in 30 minutes at work, shopping centers, and other charging station locations would not be convenient?”—cosmos
“but Nissan didn’t say what kind of power you’ll need. We’re guessing 480 volts at 100 amps.”
No that’s not convenient, certainly not at home.
And, how would you feel if you pulled into fill your car with gasoline and it trickled in taking 30 minutes to fill it 80%. cosmos that’s not my lifestyle and would kill my work.
Look, I hope the are successful, but I’m not holding my breath till they are, and even if they are it sounds like a lot of money, time and inconvenience, especially for someone that drives as much as I all over the state. I can put close to a thousand miles on some weeks (though not often anymore) and at least several hundred regularly. Those puny ranges and long charge (refueling) times are not workable. Sure, if all you do is drive a few blocks to work and never take distant vacations maybe an electric would work, but that’s all.
boxlock20 posted September 11, 2009 at 7:46 pm
And, how would you feel if you pulled into fill your car with gasoline and it trickled in taking 30 minutes to fill it 80%.
——————————-
It would not bother me at all, if I knew it before getting there, and had already planned to spend 30 minutes getting a meal, shopping, or something else there.
“Sure, if all you do is drive a few blocks to work and never take distant vacations maybe an electric would work, but that’s all.”
No, electrics work fine if you travel within their range.
A few blocks to work? Just walk.
And, how would you feel if you pulled into fill your car with gasoline and it trickled in taking 30 minutes to fill it 80%.
——————————-
“It would not bother me at all, if I knew it before getting there, and had already planned to spend 30 minutes getting a meal, shopping, or something else there.”—cosmos
cosmos, much of the time there has been some bad blood between us and I’m not trying to fuel that now, but I have got to be honest. That’s just weird! I don’t live in that kind of a world where I could only put 80 to 100 miles on an electric car and then had to spend that kind of time (30+ minutes) sitting, or wasting time, to recharge it. Not unless I was retired and even then I pray I’m busier and have more important things to do than that. Do you realize one couldn’t get past Pratt on their way to Dodge or Garden City or Colorado Springs without stopping for 30+ minutes, several times, to recharge…..impossible. Gee, lets just go back to covered wagon days and really eliminate emissions.
boxlock20,
I think it’s “weird” that you don’t seem to understand that not everyone in the world does as much driving as you.
Many people drive less than 40 miles total per day. And they might have a gasoline or hybrid car available for the times when they need/want to drive longer distances.
Battery vehicles work fine for people who travel within the range. Recharging it while you’re at work, or shopping, eating, sleeping, etc is not “wasting” time.
“Many people drive less than 40 miles total per day. And they might have a gasoline or hybrid car available for the times when they need/want to drive longer distances.”–cosmos
First thank you for your courteous and reasoned response.
Two: “I think it’s “weird” that you don’t seem to understand that not everyone in the world does as much driving as you.”
I well realize that, but they certainly do occasionally and what are they to do then? A second car might be out of budget, and wasteful if just sitting much of the time, and it would need to be insured costing more. You’d have some owning two vehicles instead of just one if they simply had a gasoline fueled one in the first place.
Three: “Recharging it while you’re at work, or shopping, eating, sleeping, etc is not “wasting” time.”
Many many times people are not going to want to take 30+ minutes at a stop. That would require planning around the charge instead of the purpose of the trip. Do you realize that just to get from the east side of Wichita to the west and back can easily put on 40+ miles, not to mention about moving around once there.
It would require large area charging stations if cars are parked there for 30+ minutes instead of what…5 min. to fill a car at ‘Kwik-Shop’. The investment in real estate area would be enormous. To have charging outlets at parking spaces would be very expensive for the mechanisms necessary to accept cards or money, etc.
I think electric cars might be a nice toy, or for someone with a very limited lifestyle, but they simply don’t offer the versatility of what we have, nor apparently the savings from what I get off of the discussions about the Nisson LEAF to justify the extreme limitations and costs.
boxlock20 posted September 12, 2009 at 8:35 am
Three: “Recharging it while you’re at work, or shopping, eating, sleeping, etc is not “wasting” time.”
Many many times people are not going to want to take 30+ minutes at a stop.
———————
Those people should not buy battery vehicles.
The key decision on buying one is comparing your driving habits to both the range, and charging options. If it doesn’t work the way you want, don’t buy it.
Seriously, “Boxlock20″ –
See the film “Who Killed the Electric Car.”
It’s a 2006 documentary and many of the fine points have changed due to advances in research, development, and manufacture.
But you really need to see how General Motors’ EV1 produced a pretty good first generation emission-free vehicle for urban population centers.
So the EV1 might not have suited your high-flying lifestyle of peddling overpriced medical equipment to the orphans and widows of Ulysses, Tribune, and Scott City? I’m sure everyone in America agrees we shouldn’t enact any policies which might interfere with the comfort of “Boxlock20.”
The Tesla Motors story, which I’ve linked to several times in this forum, belies your supposed expertise on the issues of emission-free automobiles.
Stick to American history, “Boxlock20.” We all know and respect you for your expertise on the presidency of Thomas Jefferson, from January 20, 1777 to January 20, 1781.
Don’t move out of your comfort zone.
“I’m sure everyone in America agrees we shouldn’t enact any policies which might interfere with the comfort of “Boxlock20.” “—the Chimp
I think that maybe the brightest thing I’ve ever heard you say.
While customer reaction to the EV1 was positive, GM viewed the program as evidence that electric cars occupied an unprofitable niche of the automobile market, evidenced by their ability to lease only 800 units in face of production costs of US$1 billion over four years.”
“Dr. Kenneth Train of UC Berkeley, who conducted the study, stated that given a typical retail price of $21,000 for a RAV4 SUV, “Toyota would have to give the average consumer a free RAV4-EV plus a check for approximately $7,000.”
Hum, pretty bad business sounds like.
cosmos, you buy and electric and I’ll stay with what I have and guess what…..I’ll go further and get there faster than you will….and that’s a fact.
boxlock20 posted September 12, 2009 at 12:02 pm
cosmos, you buy and electric and I’ll stay with what I have and guess what…..I’ll go further and get there faster than you will….and that’s a fact.
———————
Fast charge stations wont be here for a while, so I’d get one of the new PHEV’s that use lithium-ion batteries.
I’d be able to drive short trips, 30 or 40 miles, on cheaper electric, and also be able to drive 24/7 cross-country.
Your spending hours and hours and hours of driving to peddle your medical devices sounds exciting and productive. /sarcasm off
“Your spending hours and hours and hours of driving to peddle your medical devices sounds exciting and productive. /sarcasm off”—cosmos
It is, it gets me out to all parts of the state and earns me close to 6 figures annually. Plus I’m not spending that much time out anymore, maybe a couple of nights every other week as my accounts know me well and like what I can do for them….they call me.
How about you ’sarcastic’…..I would venture to say not that well.
boxlock20,
This is an anonymous blog.
Nobody believes what you claim about yourself — especially since you have zero credibility on many issues.
At least I’m not a hysterical fool who is wasting their life worrying about things they can’t change.
And I have no reason to lie, especially because this blog is anonymous. I have done well since going to work for myself and haven’t exaggerated at all. With net worth in the low 7 figure, exclusive of paid for home and cars, zero debt, and income in the high 5’s, I don’t need to lie.
Frankly cosmos, I laugh at your ridiculousness, knowing you have nothing more to your life than glumping onto some fad issue to give yourself meaning, that’s really quite sad.
My biggest weakness is getting some perverse enjoyment pointing out how asinine folks like you and the DimLibs are. I thought it might help when I first came here, but as I’ve said before you are possessed of some type of mental disease called liberalism and thinking all that is new is better.
By the way cosmos, it’s not that I’m trying to brag personally, others make me look like a pauper. I’ve been dirt poor, can’t pay all the bills poor before. I just told you where I’m now at to maybe get you look around and decide ‘are you where you want to be, are you where you could be.
Only you can answer that question. BlueJay has chosen his path and is where he is and where he will stay….and that’s fine, it’s his choice, but people should at least look around and decide and then go after it.
And cosmos, having things, like money, isn’t everything and can’t bring contentment, but it can sure eliminate a lot of things that prevent it.
Beside….it’s an easy and objective way to keep score!
boxlock20,
Do you not understand that you can’t prove your claims on this anonymous blog?
Like you can’t seem to understand that temperatures on 2 percent of Earth do not represent the temperature of the entire Earth?
And humans do partially control Earth’s climate. We already increased the radiative forcing of Earth’s atmosphere — we can, and definitely should change it to be lower.
I really don’t care about proving anything to the likes of you cosmos, just the same, I have no reason to lie…..only to be thankful for what I’ve been blessed with.
Now Good Night.
PS: Hey cosmos….remember what I said about an easy and objective way of keeping score…..what’s yours. That’s a question just for you, I don’t expect or want and answer.
‘
and‘ should read ‘an’.“And humans do partially control Earth’s climate. We already increased the radiative forcing of Earth’s atmosphere — we can, and definitely should change it to be lower.”–cosmos
Not and continue to live and have any quality of life, we are to dependent on those things you think are destroying the climate for our very existence.
Man is insignificant on this world, and in the universe as a whole.
boxlock20,
Thank you for explaining that humans can’t change the changes that we are causing to Earth’s climate, because you incorrectly believe that would destroy our “quality of life”.
Don’t worry about the future of your 10-year old granddaughter, and future generations.
And I did not expect you to prove anything about the lies and false personal attacks that you posted about me. . . except that you’re a liar.
And you are to be pitied cosmos. You are so self-absorbed in your obsession it dominates your life. Do you do or think about anything else?
The Earth has always been, and always will be, in a state of continual change, and there is nothing you or others can do about that, for better or worse. You don’t run the universe cosmos, I know that may come as a shock and complete surprise to you but it’s a fact.
And I don’t lie cosmos, I express my true thoughts about the subject and you, and if you don’t like it….well tough.
boxlock20 posted September 12, 2009 at 10:48 pm
“The Earth has always been, and always will be, in a state of continual change, and there is nothing you or others can do about that, for better or worse.”
————————–
Yes, I’ve posted about the natural changes during the geologic past.
But AGW is also changing Earth’s climate. For example,
‘Arctic Warming Overtakes 2,000 Years of Natural Cooling‘
http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2009/arctic2k.jsp
“Arctic temperatures in the 1990s reached their warmest level of any decade in at least 2,000 years, new research indicates. The study, which incorporates geologic records and computer simulations, provides new evidence that the Arctic would be cooling if not for greenhouse gas emissions that are overpowering natural climate patterns.”
———
See the “continual change” in graph at link.
“You don’t run the universe cosmos, I know that may come as a shock and complete surprise to you but it’s a fact.”
————————–
Where did I say or imply that I “run the universe”?
Why should something that is not my “true thought” be a “shock and complete surprise” to me?
“And I don’t lie cosmos, I express my true thoughts about the subject and you, and if you don’t like it….well tough.”
————————-
Saying that you “don’t lie” doesn’t prove that you don’t lie. Where did I say or imply that I “run the universe”?
“Where did I say or imply that I “run the universe”?”–cosmos
That is implied obviously. When you think you can alter the world’s climate change, assuming there is any in the first place, with stupid cap and tax schemes and electric cars very few want, that is arrogantly putting man and yourself in control.
And cosmos, you are not in control! Not even of yourself let alone the world and it’s climate.
boxlock20,
Humans already partially control Earth’s climate, by our increasing the radiative forcing of Earth’s atmosphere.
We can, and definitely should remove the changes we have caused.
A vehicle at 15 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 800 gallons of
gasoline a year.
A vehicle at 25 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 480 gallons a year.
So, the average clunker transaction will reduce U.S. gasoline
consumption by 320 gallons per year.
They claim 700,000 clunkers were turned in–so that’s 224 million
gallons a year.
That equates to a little more than five million barrels of oil.
Five million barrels of oil is about one-fourth of one day’s U.S. 0D
consumption.
Five million barrels of oil costs about $350 million dollars at $75 per
barrel.
Thus, we spent $3 billion to save $350 million.
How good a deal was that?
They’ll probably do a great job with health care, though.
It’s all foolishness cosmos!
Thank you for the info, David.
DavidB posted September 13, 2009 at 10:08 pm ‘Open 9/13′
Boxie stole his post from a widely circulated e-mail. So don’t blame him for the fuzzy math. He’s just a copy/paster/plagiarist.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/clunkers.asp
Many taking ‘advantage’ of the cash for clunkers program lost money over what they could have done if thinking.
One: To get the rebate they had to give up the trade-in value of the car they were bringing in.
Two: The dealer was not as motivated to ‘deal in good faith’ in pricing the new care because they knew the buyer was looking at the rebate as a gift.
Three: The buyer had to pay INCOME TAX on the value of the rebate as earned income decreasing it by 15% to 28%.
When added up the buyer likely spent as much or more than they would have realized selling the old car, dealing tough on the new and not paying income tax on the rebate.
I know, I checked it out!
Boxlock20
Posted September 15, 2009 at 8:18 am | Permalink
Three: The buyer had to pay INCOME TAX on the value of the rebate as earned income decreasing it by 15% to 28%.
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Do you ever stop spreading lies and misinformation?
————————-
“Is the credit subject to being taxed as income to the consumers that participate in the program?
NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer.”
http://www.cars.gov/faq#category-06
Oh, and cosmos and David this is what snopes and you fail to consider:
There are abundant usable products other than gasoline, you fail to take in the value of those products.
“It is also turned into diesel fuel, jet fuel, solvents, fertilizers, pesticides, and plastics. Since gasoline doesn’t make up the whole barrel, it then seemed like a good idea to figure out what percentage of the barrel was turned into gasoline.” But you must consider as well the other valuable products.
The total volume of products made is 2.6 gallons greater than the original 42 gallons of crude oil. This represents “processing gain.”
Hmm, so maybe instead of thinking about 42 gallons per barrel I should start with 44.6.
http://alohaanalytics.blogspot.com/2009/06/how-many-gallons-of-gasoline-in-barrel.html
You both lose again!
Daniel,
You are WRONG as well, it isn’t federal income tax BUT it is in many cases taxed at the State level.
So, no it isn’t 15% to 28% federal tax, but in most cases it is the states income tax rate of whatever, and that can be close to 10% in high tax states and approx. 5% in others
State Sales Tax
“But what about individual state sales tax rules? Yes, some States are including the Cash for Clunkers credit in the price of the vehicle when they are calculating the State’s sales tax due on the purchase of the vehicle. Therefore, in effect, there is a tax levied on the $4,500 Cash for Clunkers credit. It’s just not an income tax. It’s a state sales tax. Got it? Here’s more from the official website, Cars.gov:”
http://ptmoney.com/2009/08/28/cash-for-clunkers-tax-rules/
Ops, not state income tax but sales tax, which is usually higher anyway.
Boxlock20,
The 15% and 28% levels of INCOME TAX clearly implied taxation at the Federal level. Whether or not the rebate is hit with a sales tax varies from state to state.
Sales tax certainly isn’t INCOME TAX, is it? So, how was I ‘WRONG’?
As usual, you post a link which addresses the issue of sales tax at the state level when you’re original assertion was that the rebate was subject to INCOME TAX. Nowhere in your link is the issue of INCOME TAX at the state level addressed.
What day is it, Boxlock20?
Boxlock20
Posted September 15, 2009 at 8:41 am | Permalink
Daniel,
You are WRONG as well, it isn’t federal income tax BUT it is in many cases taxed at the State level.
So, no it isn’t 15% to 28% federal tax, but in most cases it is the states income tax rate of whatever, and that can be close to 10% in high tax states and approx. 5% in others
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It is not an INCOME TAX at the state level, either. From you own link:
“But what about individual state sales tax rules? Yes, some States are including the Cash for Clunkers credit in the price of the vehicle when they are calculating the State’s sales tax due on the purchase of the vehicle. Therefore, in effect, there is a tax levied on the $4,500 Cash for Clunkers credit. It’s just not an income tax. It’s a state sales tax. Got it? Here’s more from the official website, Cars.gov:”
—————————————
So, to recap:
Sales tax at the state level? —-> Maybe…depends upon the state.
INCOME TAX at any level? ——> No.
Got it?
Daniel,
Now you are standing on sand.
Yes the email did say Federal Tax and there are as many reference supporting that as not….incorrect yes but still there and you FAILED to know and to post that the states tax would apply which averages close to 7% BEFORE city and add-on individual local taxes.
So, the total tax on the rebate is likely close to 10% a figure, not that far off from the 15% federal level.
And the point is that CFC it was not a particularly good deal, especially since we the taxpayer is footing the bill, and many many won’t see the savings they thought in the end.
#
Boxlock20
Posted September 15, 2009 at 8:46 am | Permalink
Ops, not state income tax but sales tax, which is usually higher anyway.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oops, didn’t see this post before I posted my last. Sorry.
“Yes, some States are including the Cash for Clunkers credit in the price of the vehicle when they are calculating the State’s sales tax due on the purchase of the vehicle. Therefore, in effect, there is a tax levied on the $4,500 Cash for Clunkers credit. It’s just not an income tax. It’s a state sales tax. Got it?”
Our posts seem to be out of sync.
I understand that you don’t think that the CFC was not a good program. The thing that I don’t get is if the facts support your position as you say they do, why the continual need to embellish the truth with inaccuracies and misinformation to make your case?
“Oops, didn’t see this post before I posted my last. Sorry.”
That okay…fine, we all make mistakes and I did too.
My point was not in the exact details but that the program was not all it was cracked up to be for a lot of individuals.
And dealer salesmen were not being as aggressive in discounting the vehicles because of the knowledge of the rebate, delays, paperwork and all the potential costs involved on their end.
Boxlock20
Posted September 15, 2009 at 9:10 am | Permalink
My point was not in the exact details but that the program was not all it was cracked up to be for a lot of individuals.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
As long as your post ‘rings true’ that’s close enough, I suppose. You betcha!!!!
*wink*
“Boxlock20″ admits –
“My point was not in the exact details….”
Perhaps you should start putting your disclaimers in before you cut-and-post and make crap up.
Y’know, you could post, “I know Thomas Jefferson wasn’t President of the United States from January 20, 1777 to January 20, 1781, but to preserve the cut-and-post I’m not going to change the source’s misinformation” beforehand.
Or, “The point I’m trying to make has nothing to do with the ‘exact details,’ because I’m making it up as I go along.”
Such preemptive clarifications would be helpful since you so frequently step on your intellectual dick in this forum, it’s non-stop comic relief.
It’s hard to keep up with all the CONs who’ve abandoned this forum — I miss ol’ “MaxGrobnik” and “Franklin” and “Econ101″ and the rest — and I sometimes have trouble remember if it’s “ANTI” or you or “wichhick” or another of your gang of “morans” who posted what.
But wasn’t it you, using a different nym, who bragged, “When I get aroused and lay my cock on the keyboard, it stretches all the way from ‘A’ to ‘Z!’”?
My main aubject point remains the same, and not dis-proven by cosmos, David or you in the least.
Maybe you should come up with points to disprove instead of looking for minor points and inaccuracies to distract and make yourself feel important.
It makes you look as small as you in truth are.
And you gutter mind and mouth also proves something and I must admit delights me in knowing you have nothing else….nothing better.
You are truly a loser Monkey, and you deserve every bit of it.
Your non-denial of the “A to Z” quote noted, “Boxlock20.”
I thought it was you.
I don’t need to deny such filth, out of place anywhere, but certainly here.
Everyone knows you are a damn fool, and statements such as yours above simply confirms it.
boxlock20
Please try to burn “diesel fuel, jet fuel, solvents, fertilizers, pesticides, and plastics” in your car engine. And let us know how well it works.
—————
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/gasoline_faqs.asp#gallons_per_barrel
“U.S. refineries produce between 19 and 20 gallons of motor gasoline from one barrel (42 gallons) of crude oil. The remainder of the barrel yields distillate and residual fuel oils, jet fuel, and many other products.”
And those things have value, they add to our economy, and will be refined anyway, meaning to look only at the savings from just gasoline component of the CFC is not valid.
The total volume of products made is 2.6 gallons greater than the original 42 gallons of crude oil. This represents “processing gain.”
Hmm, so maybe instead of thinking about 42 gallons per barrel I should start with 44.6.