Rep. Todd Tiahrt, R-Goddard, claimed during a town hall meeting Tuesday in Derby that a third of the estimated 46 million people in the United States who don’t have health insurance are illegal immigrants. But according to estimates by the National Institute for Health Care Management Foundation, the number of illegal immigrants without insurance is 5.6 million, or about 12 percent of the total. That’s still a lot, but it’s far less than a third. Tiahrt also claimed that the health reform plan in Congress would pay for insuring illegals. But House and Senate bills explicitly prohibit “individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States” from receiving federal assistance to buy health insurance.
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58 Comments
Please, Mr. Tiahrt, stop lying about the health reform efforts. If you are going to oppose fixing the health system, at least use reason that are true.
Filling the electorate’s heads with falsehoods is immoral.
The statistics depend on your count of how many illegal immigrants there are in the first place, and those estimates vary wildly. Really, we have no idea. So Tiahrt is basing his statements off one figure and you are basing yours off another. I do think that the issue is not particularly germane. Whatever the numbers are, there are plenty of uninsured people who are not here illegally, so that the policy decisions don’t hinge on knowing exactly what the breakdown is. And I’m no enthusiast for the tendency some have for blaming illegal immigrants for every problem in the country.
DavidB
Posted August 13, 2009 at 6:14 am | Permalink
Please, Mr. Tiahrt, stop lying about the health reform efforts. If you are going to oppose fixing the health system, at least use reason that are true.
Filling the electorate’s heads with falsehoods is immoral.
—
Extremely immoral.
As a Congressional representative holding town hall meetings with his constituents, not many of whom are likely health economists, Rep. Tiahrt owes the public a duty to speak honestly and fairly. He can use the facts to create any narrative he wishes, but he owes his constituents the facts first.
And being factual does NOT mean that he has the option to purposely misconstrue something published once as fact. He should never have the option of finding an outlier among facts and arguing that the outlier is actually on the trend line. That’s certainly not what a conservative Kansan would do, and it’s not what Rep. Tiahrt should be engaged in.
To be anything less than careful with the facts at this time is incredibly irresponsible. It can lead to misunderstandings now that erupt into illegal behavior in the future. Congressional representatives should know better.
I’m gonna cross-post this link to the Open Thread, but it fits (obliquely, at least) in this one, too.
I rilly rilly rilly don’t agree with this guy’s answers in the health coverage debate.
But I respect his approach and learned a lot from this piece.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
He was on NPR’s Morning Edition today and I looked up his piece.
One paragraph toward the end, as he takes a strictly business approach to reform:
“A wasteful insurance system; distorted incentives; a bias toward treatment; moral hazard; hidden costs and a lack of transparency; curbed competition; service to the wrong customer. These are the problems at the foundation of our health-care system, resulting in a slow rot and requiring more and more money just to keep the system from collapsing.”
Anyway, I think it’s pretty insightful and thought-provoking.
It is telling that that the opposing side NEVER addresses the fact that our national health care tab per capita is DOUBLE the rest of the world’s.
Senate and House bills also prohibit illegal border crossings.
How’s that working out for them?
I called Rep Tiahrt’s Wichita office last week to tell him I expect health-care reform. I was assured by his office that he knows the need and also supports health-care reform.
So rest assured, unless this is yet another bit of misinformation, he also wants to reform health care! Maybe when all his exaggerations and scare tactics have been debunked he will finally get down to actually working toward his stated goal.
Maybe.
He has no track record of doing anything beneficial for either Kansans or Americans, but there could be a first time. He will either cooperate and have some voice or health-care reform can proceed without him.
All his constituents who think he will help bring the Republican Party back to relevance by not cooperating, forget this truth:
Senate Dem 60 GOP 40
House Dem 257 GOP 178
History has shown (until now) the party in the minority works harder to gain the trust and confidence of the people, advance alternate plans and solutions in their quest to regain election losses. It will be interesting to see how this new Republican election strategy of complain, spread untrue rumors and criticize plays out.
Regular: Mexicans started showing up at Canadian airports claiming “refugee” status. I say airports because Canada will not accept land sourced refugees knowing America is not an oppressive a nation. What used to be a tickle grew to tens of thousands (of which maybe 1% were actually accepted as refugees)and all this jammed up their immigration system not to mention costing millions and millions of dollars to process “claims” whilst they lived off a generous safety net, had to find again them and ship them home. So, Ottawa announced with no prior warning, that Mexicans would need a Visa to enter Canada resulting in the flood going back to a trickle, Mexico in a snit and Ottawa saying “tough”. See, it can be done, if you really, really mean it!
“It is telling that that the opposing side NEVER addresses the fact that our national health care tab per capita is DOUBLE the rest of the world’s.”
Nor does David ever mention that a third of those over-runs are due to Medicare. I’m almost convinced my mother is being kept alive for billing purposes.
Do you really expect Todd to tell the truth? He still campaigns about wasteful Washington spending. Nevermind he voted for it all during the Bush years. What’s more troubling is the people of the 4th district kept re-electing him. That sure doesn’t say much about us.
Something about toddy and term limits come to mind. When you’ve lied to your constituents once, it only gets easier.
Back in ks. we have a sayin that coverts tiahrt, Lying Liar.
Grassley says living wills should be made 20 yrs. in advance. What the hell is he thinking?
Phantom
Posted August 13, 2009 at 9:54 am | Permalink
Grassley says living wills should be made 20 yrs. in advance. What the hell is he thinking?
——————————————–
I’m 56 and have a living will,advanced directives,and what my wishes for my funeral are. In addition my family all have copies of these documents, by doing this I feel like I’m taking the burden off my family when the time comes that descions have to be made. My Dad had the above mention documents and although it did make the descions that were made any easier but it did provide some comfort that we were doing what he wanted
If a woman who enters Medicare at 65 writes her Living Will with the (heeheeheee) Death Panel (WHAHAHAH!!!!) this will be about 20 years before she needs it in place.
DorisKing
Posted August 13, 2009 at 9:10 am | Permalink
‘a third of those over-runs are due to Medicare. I’m almost convinced my mother is being kept alive for billing purposes.
—-
And, yet, Republicans at these town hall meetings don’t want their Medicare touched by that nasty, evil government – but these people do realize Medicare is run by the government, don’t they?
You, see, Doris, it does not do any good to use logic with Republicans – they want what they want, when they want it and they want the other guy to pay for it.
Pretty simple logic for pretty simple minds – don’t you think?
Tiarht may just meet his Waterloo when all this is said and done.
Those who are yelling and screaming are the Loud Minority.
The Silent Majority are too busy working to pay for these Medicare recipients to be able to go to the doctor whenever they want, and as many times as they want, and have it paid.
Alot of working people are tired of seeing their kids do without health care in order for Grandma and Grandpa to complain about Obama taking away their Medicare while on their way to the casino to blow $500 on the slots!
Melody Barnes, the President’s Director of the Domestic Policy Council
As a nation, we dedicate only three percent of our health dollars to health promotion, but over 20 percent of our health care dollars to care in the last year of life.
Appears to me that Ms. Barnes wants to trim the ‘elderly’ fat from the budget.
Sure read like O’BAMA administrative death dealing to me.
totoinks
Posted August 13, 2009 at 11:03 am | Permalink
Tiarht may just meet his Waterloo when all this is said and done.
Those who are yelling and screaming are the Loud Minority.
The Silent Majority are too busy working to pay for these Medicare recipients to be able to go to the doctor whenever they want, and as many times as they want, and have it paid.
Alot of working people are tired of seeing their kids do without health care in order for Grandma and Grandpa to complain about Obama taking away their Medicare while on their way to the casino to blow $500 on the slots!
———————————————–
In a round about way you are speaking up for rationing of health care for the elderly. Wonder if you will feel the same when you mature
Dear VoteVets.org Supporter,The debate over health care reform has gotten pretty heated, and there are a lot of rumors flying around. One, which we felt compelled to address, is that insurance reforms being talked about would negatively affect veterans’ care, or rob veterans and their families of care.
Those rumors are patently false.
Matt Flavin, the Director of Veterans and Wounded Warrior Policy at the White House has addressed these rumors one by one, and we urge everyone to watch his explanation, and pass it along.CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT VETERANS AND HEALTH CARE REFORM http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/6
Whether you support what the President is proposing for the health insurance system, or oppose it, it’s important that no one help feed the rumors and lies being spread around. There are plenty of actual facts to debate, and feeding the beast of viral lies only takes away from a real debate over the facts.
Please take a moment to click the link above, and get the truth.
The White House response, White House Office of Health
Propagandateam:Who is on the team?
– your liberal line up
Matt Flavin, Director of Veterans and Wounded Warrior Policy, Assistant to the National Security Council Legal Advisor.
Flavin most recently served on the Department of Defense Agency Review Team for the Obama-Biden Presidential Transition. Prior to this, he was a national security adviser on the Obama for America campaign. Flavin received his bachelor’s degree from Amherst College.
Regular joins the “Throw Gramma Under the Bus” crowd and the phony outrage of the week club.
I don’t suppose there was more to her remarks to put that into context?
“At the same time, the uninsured cannot afford screening for heart disease, diabetes, cancer, or even get a flu shot — and our health care system as a whole places far more emphasis on treatment than it does on preventing disease in the first place. As a nation, we dedicate only three percent of our health dollars to health promotion, but over 20 percent of our health care dollars to care in the last year of life.”
She is urging more prevention and wellness efforts.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/19/AR2007011901125_pf.html
The White House response, White House Office of Health
Propagandateam:Who is on the team?
– your liberal line up
Robert Kocher of the National Economic Council
Who has written:
Bill and Hillary Clinton as Borderline Psychotics,
Socialism: the Forbidden Ideology,
…and wrote in:
Politics in America, Part I:
…job insecurity, has contributed to a large class of frustrated angry white men in America. They are ridiculed by the political left as right-wing reactionary kooks and anti-progressives, which increases their anger. They are also frightened and confused by their deteriorating condition, which is not acknowledged by political right elitists. They are unacknowledged political pariahs and inconveniences in the staged politically correct virtual-reality of American politics.
but over 20 percent of our health care dollars to care in the last year of life.
============================
Well DavidB,
This may sound crazy, but in my observations the ones “in the last year of life” tend to have more health problems than the younger ones.
The ultimate and most effective way to let Tiahrt know that you disagree with him continuing to spread lies, rumors and misinformation would be to make sure he is defeated in his primary bid for the Republican nomination in the race to replace Brownback as a Senator from Kansas.
Here’s all you need to know:
To vote in the primary you must be registered as a Republican. You will not be allowed to change your party affiliation on election day so you must do it in advance.
Changing your party affiliation or registering to vote is simple in Kansas. A minute online is all it takes!
Be prepared with these bits of info:
your name
your address
your KS driver’s license number (or non-driver’s ID card number)
That’s it!
Here’s the site to make sure you are part of deciding who is the next Senator from the state of Kansas:
http://www.kssos.org
GOP Not Allowed to Say ‘Government-Run Healthcare’
public option health care plan is the politically correct term
Connie Hair, Human Events
Rep. John Carter (R-Texas), the secretary of the House Republican Conference and a former District Court Judge, is having his messages to constituents censored by Democrats on the Franking Commission. Republicans are no longer allowed to use the words “government run health care” in the communications to their constituents.
Carter received an email from the Franking mmission informing him of the censorship.
“What we proposed as language was as follows, ‘House Democrats unveiled a government-run health care plan,’” Carter said. “Our response from Franking was, ‘You cannot use that language. You must use, ‘The House majority unveiled a public option health care plan,’ which is Pelosi-speak or ‘just last week the House majority unveiled a health care plan which I believe will cost taxpayers…’”
What the Franking commission is supposed to do.
Pursuant to Public Law 93-191, the bipartisan Commission on Congressional Mailing Standards or the “Franking Commission” has a three fold mandate: (1) to issue regulations governing the proper use of the franking privilege; (2) to provide guidance in connection with mailings; (3) to act as a quasi-judicial body for the disposition of formal complaints against Members of Congress who have allegedly violated franking laws or regulations.
“…we dedicate only three percent of our health dollars to health promotion, but over 20 percent of our health care dollars to care in the last year of life.”
—
Still, it would probably be more cost effective overall if we could boost that 3% to something closer to 20. Although it’s true we’ll all die, I have to believe that boosting preventive measures, including health promotion (if done correctly), would have a positive ROI.
It may not pull down that last year of life 20, but it would surely pull down costs in all years previous to the last one. Seems reasonable to conclude that overall health care costs — buttered over all years except the last one — would fall as a result.
O’BAMA’s plan to zap the elderly
or
Age Rating and the O’BAMA/AARP Scheme
AARP’s Bait and Switch on Health Care because of Obama’s Health care proposal.
And what about age? Here comes the rub — there’s something called “age rating” that has sparked all-out warfare between groups that advocate for older Americans. We’re not talking about those old enough for Medicare — they’re likely to remain largely untouched by whatever is approved.
It’s the “young old” — those between 50 and 65 — who are going to get zapped big time if age rating goes into effect. Essentially it means older folks will pay some multiple of the premiums charged to younger people for the same coverage, just because of their age. Since everybody knows older people are more likely to have pre-existing conditions, it’s a back door way to replace exorbitant premiums for prexisting conditions with exorbitant premiums for being older.
But it still ain ‘t fair. A healthy 55 year old who works out and watches what she eats could be asked to pay double what a 30 year old 350 pound person with diabetes and arthritis would get hit for.
The Leadership Council of Aging Organizations (LCAO), a coalition of 60 national not-for-profit organizations concerned with the well-being of people over age 50, has sent a letter to the Senate finance committee arguing that age rating should be ditched altogether. They point out that for most people of modest means who wouldn’t qualify for subsidies, the age-rating schemes could push premium costs to as much as 25% of pre-tax income.
The letter was signed by about half of LCAO’s member groups — not including the 900 pound gorilla AARP. Seems AARP wants to allow this blatantly age discriminatory policy to go forward. True, they would limit it to maybe having 50-somethings pay no more than twice the premium of younger people for the same coverage.
Sounds like they’re saying a little bit of age discrimination is ok, as long as it doesn’t go too far.
The Older Women’s League fought hard to get enough sign-ons to send the letter. That’s because the plans would particularly affect older single women, already lower on the income scale and less likely to have employer coverage. They rightly pointed out that if gender rating was on the table, every women’s group would be raising holy he11.
(Here’s a key reason for AARP support of ObamaCare, AARP will make more $$$ on supplemental insurance.)
So where are the rest of the advocates for those over 50? AARP already rakes in megabucks from its supplemental insurance business – you figure it out.
Monkeyhawk
Posted August 13, 2009 at 11:50 am | Permalink
Discussing health coverage reform with WE Blog CONs feels too much like booing at the Special Olympics; repulsive to even think about.
—
The fact is that it’s still safe to ignore ‘em. One, they have little more than innuendo and gross distortions as ammunition (their best shot is really just a vague worry) which two, tend to ends up lodged firmly in their feet.
Six months and they’re still their own worst enemies. It’s like a honeymoon that never ends, really. ; > )
(…on the theory that MH posted his 11:50am to the wrong thread)
woops, pullin’ up on 7 months now, not 6.
It is a little harsh to accuse Rep Tiahrt of lying when there are not hard and fast numbers of illegals living in this country. As the Christian Science Monitor wrote:
“Depending on the source, the numbers range widely – from about 7 million up to 20 million or more.
Nailing down such figures is impossible. Even settling on a ballpark figure is difficult given the official sources: the US Census, apprehensions along the US-Mexico border, and social service agencies. For one thing, illegal immigrants avoid responding to census questionnaires.”
Dispelling the nonsense on this forum is a public service, since it may allow those who have been misled to seek out the genuine issues.
I think contacting the Kansas delegation (with the exception of Dennis Moore) is a lost cause.
And it’s telling that the latest nonsense centers on, of course, Mexicans who crossed the border illegally. Manufactured scapegoats are a must! Same song, verse two: government spending only helps those presumably undeserving people who ain’t them!!.
One could be forgiven for thinking that this “issue”–whether crass prejudices and maniacal self-centeredness should determine public policy–was decided in the last election.
“grownup” gives us –
“It is a little harsh to accuse Rep Tiahrt of lying when there are not hard and fast numbers of illegals living in this country….”
Y’think?
Then why did Toad cite numbers that fit into his diatribe?
C’mon, CONs.
You’re not even trying.
Yeah, we know there’s a disastrous CBO analyses of premature studies of assorted versions of health insurance reform legislation. And yes, we know CBO always gives a “light” “medium” and “heavy” analysis of every budget issue. And yes, every political faction picks the CBO report that best suits their clients’ interests….
But as soon as Toad Tiahrt cites one set of numbers his defenders can’t run to his defense with, “…there are not hard and fast numbers….”
C’mon, CONs.
You might be able to plead ignorance (we’ll all believe you, after all) before you cite artificial numbers in your quest for whatever political agendas Toad has sold out to, but you don’t have the right, “grownup,” to defend Tiahrt’s cherry-picking numbers by claiming “…there are not hard and fast numbers…”
You’re not really trying, are you?
Or is this the best you can do?
CBO analysis found that 36 million people would remain uninsured even if the Senate’s $1.6 trillion health care plan is passed.
The Congressional Budget Office says that 45 percent of the uninsured will be insured within four months. CBO Director Douglas Holtz-Eakin also said that the frequent claim of 40+ million Americans lacking insurance is an “incomplete and potentially misleading picture of the uninsured population.”
Liberal non-profit Kaiser Family Foundation put the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 8.2 million and 13.9 million. (The 8.2 million figure includes only those uninsured for two years or more.)
Nearly 10 million (9.7) of the 45.7 million uninsured are “not a citizen.” That makes every media claim of uninsured Americans higher than 35.9 million is wrong.
So, I’m not sure why anyone is shocked that Tiahrt mis-construed the actual facts (ie: lied). This is nothing new to him and it shows the lengths he’s willing to go to cling on to a senate run. Unlike many finger pointing people, I have lived in both Moran’s and Tiahrt’s districts at different times. I have also went to town hall meetings, went to DC and met with both, communicated with each’s staff, etc. I can tell you without a shred of reservation who I’ll vote for in the upcoming primary. The difference between the two is like night and day. If you want a senator who is responsive to his constituents and is approachable, vote MORAN for senate. By the way….Moran travels to Kansas extensively and meets with constituents. On the other hand, Tiahrt sends his “staff” to meet constituents most always.
not a citizen includes legal immigrants and illegal immigrants.
Tiahrt defines the uninsured as: 1/3 choose not to pay for insurance they could afford (mostly young men), “another third are who are actually transitioning between jobs–they had insurance but they’re just waiting to qualify for the next insurance as they change employers. The last third of that group is illegal immigrants. He forgets to mention the millions of women especially, and men also, many with kids, who work in lower paying jobs that don’t offer health care benefits and never will. He lied at El Dorado too, but the people were on him in Newton.
Hey, we were on him in El Dorado and even Derby too. The Tiahrt lovers at each venue were loud, but in small pockets. After I made a statement supporting Medicare for all, I had people come up to me after to express their agreement. The way to defeat him is not just at the ballot box. People should be attending these town halls and speaking up for health care reform. He wants the status quo. Boycott Whole Foods.
John Mackey, is a right wing anti and a union buster. He has just launched a campaign to defeat health care reform. And he’s the CEO of Whole Foods. Support the Boycott Against Whole Foods—Shop elsewhere—Pretend there is a picket line at every store—Don’t cross.
####################################################
Regular
Posted August 13, 2009 at 12:42 pm | Permalink
The Congressional Budget Office says that 45 percent of the uninsured will be insured within four months. CBO Director Douglas Holtz-Eakin also said that the frequent claim of 40+ million Americans lacking insurance is an “incomplete and potentially misleading picture of the uninsured population.”
#
jbradley
Posted August 13, 2009 at 2:21 pm | Permalink
John Mackey, is a right wing anti and a union buster. He has just launched a campaign to defeat health care reform. And he’s the CEO of Whole Foods. Support the Boycott Against Whole Foods—Shop elsewhere—Pretend there is a picket line at every store—Don’t cross.
————————-
Sorry, we are all managers of our own lives.
You know what that means?
It means that management cannot belong to unions and don’t have to obey any picket lines. :)
“Jbradley” –
As much as I’ll miss the heirloom tomatoes at Whole
FoodsPaycheck, I’ll boycott the place. And life won’t be quite as sweet without all sorts of stinky cheeses that don’t have the word Kraft on the label.I’m stocking up on Sargento cheese to thank them for pulling their ads off Glen Beck’s daily rant-fest.
It’s not bad stuff, really. But not quite as stinky as I like it.
“45 percent of the uninsured will be insured within four months.” Then another 15 million will take their place. Be sure you don’t get sick while you are senselessly cycled in or out… But then you can always go for an E.R. visit or two, I hear they’re free.
Note to self: don’t get sick at an inconvenient time.
“DavidB” shares –
“Note to self: don’t get sick at an inconvenient time.”
Yeah, maybe.
But the minute you get good health insurance, run out and get yourself a cancer! You can afford it!
That’s the market-based system CONs love so much.
Every CON issue involving health coverage reform proposals are diversionary tactics — like ants eating the proverbial elephant — used for no other reason than to distract from the total mess health coverage has become in America today.
The Moose-Dresser probably killed you CONs’ efforts with her “Death Panel” fantasy. Or the CON who screeched “Don’t let the government get its hands on my Medicare!” Or the CON who declared this week that Stephen Hawking would be dead today if he’d lived in the UK…
These aren’t political talking points, they’re punchlines.
Because you CONs have become a joke.
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel…” Sarah Palin
Oh, and remember she demands we leave her kids out of it!!!
DavidB
Posted August 13, 2009 at 3:41 pm | Permalink
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel…” Sarah Palin
Oh, and remember she demands we leave her kids out of it!!!
========================
I demand you keep my kids away from your Death Panel as well, DavidB.
No no, Palin insists we leave her kids out political debates… but Sarah can dangle them in front of the mob like Michael Jackson on a balcony (as Keith O. put it so succinctly)
DavidB
Posted August 13, 2009 at 3:50 pm | Permalink
No no, Palin insists we leave her kids out political debates… but Sarah can dangle them in front of the mob like Michael Jackson on a balcony (as Keith O. put it so succinctly)
====================================
Yeah, the two events are similar DavidB…Drama Queen..
Jeebus
Look DavidB,
Americans do not want:
Gov. run Banks
Gov. run Health Care
Gov. run Auto Companies
Gov. run Death Panels
Massive Gov. Debt
Massive Taxes to pay for all the Gov. ran money pits.
so, “mh” in your diatribe upthread, did you EVER disprove the earlier statements about numbers of illegals being somewhere between 7 and 20 million? Nope..you just resorted to insults and put downs.
What I read upthread, the post from Christian Science Monitor gave a wide range of illegals in this country. With a range that wide, it is at least mathmatically possible that Tiahrt is right.
But…in your haste to belittle and judge, you don’t bother with that idea, do you? Nor do you provide one shred of documentation of your own.
pitiful.
So, what “mh” is saying that he doesn’t have a clue how many illegals are in this country, but he KNOWS that Tiahrt is wrong.
how can that be? Other than partisan hatred, this makes so logical sense whatsoever.
Americas do want:
Puppy dogs
Cute little babies
Good food
Big TVs
Credit Cards
Nice Cars
Death Panels (LOL)
I forgot.
American Also Want:
Access to abortion services
Didn’t the Republicans fix that immigration thing in the six years they ruled the roost?
Americans do not want:
The banking industry to totally collapse
Government managed Medicare to go away
American Automobile Companies to Collapse
Insurance companies to jerk us around
To have our health care controlled by employers and insurance companies with few to no choices
Services that taxes pay for
The recession, which started 21 months ago, has bottomed out and may be over after six months of government intervention. The public mood will improve as the pressure of the narrowly averted economic catastrophe lifts.
Politicians scaring little old ladies