Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., got the diagnosis right on health care on“Fox News Sunday,” acknowledging problems with access and cost. But surely his prescription would fall short for many of the 45 million Americans who are uninsured: “Let’s equalize tax treatment” of employer-provided and individually purchased health care, he said, “target prevention and wellness, do something about medical malpractice junk lawsuits against doctors and hospitals that drive up the cost of health care. All of those things could be achieved on a broad bipartisan basis and not wreck the finest health care system in the world.”
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128 Comments
Dream-On Rhonda!
DemoRats are going to F-UP America’s Healthcare. Ain’t no stoppin it.
Kiss your Doctor Goodbye!
Nah, nah, nah,
Hey, hey, hey,
Goodbye!
I see the WEagle is still looking for a government solution to the sol-called “healthcare crisis”. Are they living in the same world as the Washington Beltway?
http://townhall.com/Columnists/ThomasSowell/2009/06/30/alice_in_medical_care?page=full&comments=true
38 percent of those with incomes above $50,000 choose not to buy Health care insurance.
The Republicans had EIGHT years to come up with their own plans and did NOTHING. Now it is the Democrat’s turn to come out a plan.
Mcconnell, sit down and shut up, the adults are in charge now!
Which means Regular, that 62 percent did so choose. What’s your point?
#
beber
Posted June 30, 2009 at 7:45 am | Permalink
Which means Regular, that 62 percent did so choose. What’s your point?
—————-
exactly…
McConnell had some valid points, but his observations are only part of the problems.
I would like to know more about what he meant by ““Let’s equalize tax treatment” of employer-provided and individually purchased health care”. Washington speak being what it is, is he talking about taxing one as the other or eliminating a tax on both?
At one point where I was working gave an option of either having $160. 00 a month towards the employee provided health insurance or it to be a cost annuity. Since taking the insurance would mean a take home after the premium of around $250.00 a month.
The cost annuity was taken by most of the classified employees.
You was taxed as this was income but not if you took the insurance. Though the annuity was stated to be for you to buy your own insurance.
The Republicans had EIGHT years to come up with their own plans and did NOTHING.
That’s the best plan of all.
Writer asked: I would like to know more about what he meant by ““Let’s equalize tax treatment” of employer-provided and individually purchased health care”.
_______
An “employer” can take a tax deduction as an ordinary business expense, the amount of healthcare/life/dental/vision/etc insurance that it pays on the employee’s behalf. If you’re self-employed..you can’t take a deduction for it. So the employer is at an advantage in terms of tax treatment relative to the self-employed individuals.
It’s one of the similar scenarios where large companies were given preference to “small business”. Another is that small business/self-employeds aren’t allowed to band together to form a larger pool to obtain similar insurance rates as large corp’s…the govt, in all it’s brilliant wisdom, made that illegal….and people act like politics won’t play a role in national healthcare plan…
Another example is using auto insurance to subsidize healthcare. Auto companies are not allowed to negotiate discounts..again by law…with health providers for claims due to auto related injuries. So auto insurance must pay full retail for services…and of course pass it along in auto insurance rates. I was with my Grandmother in an accident and I couldn’t figure out why they were so worried about whether or not there was valid auto insurance to charge her treatment to vs her medicare…later, in talking to the claims adjuster I asked…again, more BRILLIANCE from govt…and we act like “no, THIS time they’ll be straight up and won’t pick winners/losers based on some ridiculous political angle…they just care about us so much they want to take care of us…” Politicians play politics, nothing more, nothing less.
I have decided to just throw in with the Contras here and assume they are right and see how it sounds…
As a proud Obama (the Kenyan Marxist) supporter, we are intending to destroy the healthcare system in America, force you into long lines for the rationed healthcare, make you wait years for surgery and never ever let you see your own doctor again.
We are doing this because there are no problems with the current system and we just want to make everybody totally dependent on the government. We also want to make it easier to sue doctors and take their last penny as a way of redistributing the wealth to those who just want a handout.
What have I missed?
Repubs miss the big picture on single payer vs employer provided health care. No other industrial economy in the world puts the responsibility for health care on the employer.
That really puts American business at a disadvantage when it comes to global competition.
A little lesson about CON health coverage “reform” –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhpUG4apgrE
The CON strategy session for health coverage “reform” –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzDwXr9szxw&feature=related
Regular
Posted June 30, 2009 at 7:13 am | Permalink
38 percent of those with incomes above $50,000 choose not to buy Health care insurance
–
Not everyone is able to live off the VA in an assisted living center – can they?
Oh Repubs? No answer to my last post? No comment on what employer provided insurance does to our global competitive position?
(Crickets chirping)
#
XXX
Posted June 30, 2009 at 9:21 am | Permalink
Oh Repubs? No answer to my last post? No comment on what employer provided insurance does to our global competitive position?
(Crickets chirping)
————————–
Ask China or India, they seem to be kicking our collective backsides in global competitive positions.
“Regular” contributes –
“38 percent of those with incomes above $50,000 choose not to buy Health care insurance.”
97% of Americans with incomes above $50,000 chose to not buy a Lamborghini.
It’s not because they can afford it but it doesn’t have enough cup-holders for the kids.
“Regular” contributes –
“38 percent of those with incomes above $50,000 choose not to buy Health care insurance.”
97% of Americans with incomes above $50,000 chose to not buy a Lamborghini.
It’s not because they can afford it but it doesn’t have enough cup-holders for the kids.
=======================================
Perhaps they don’t like Volkswagens?
In 1998, Lamborghini became a subsidiary of the German car manufacturer Audi AG, a subsidiary of Volkswagen Group.
XXX wrote: “Repubs miss the big picture on single payer vs employer provided health care. No other industrial economy in the world puts the responsibility for health care on the employer.”
_________
I take it this is now a Republican idea?? Which party again’s been in bed with unions for their entire existence?? Tell me about all the unions in China/Russia/India/Mexico/S Korea/Taiwan….Some countries don’t have nearly the education/licensing requirements of docs/nurses as we have here…some countries aren’t printing money as fast as the printer will spit it out creating inflation of our currency relative to their….some countries don’t tax their business’ (we’re the 2nd highest next to Japan) as punitively as we do…can you guys ever seriously make a completely honest argument, or do you somehow think you’re being “smart” by picking some fact, twisting it, then expecting others to play defense against it?
DFB
Posted June 30, 2009 at 10:18 am | Permalink
I take it this is now a Republican idea??
____________________
Did I say that? Take it where you want it. Nice try at dodging the question.
Next!
Any way you cut it, the government will have to figure out a way to get money from the healthy to pay for the health care costs for the unhealthy.
However, added to this task, is the government’s innate ability to legislate the scope and type of care that the unhealthy will be eligible to receive. Does anybody really think that their quality of coverage will increase under a government managed plan?
Universal coverage is no different than welfare in that it is a forced wealth redistribution from those who take positive steps to take care for themselves to those who do not.
It is not fair that rich people get to pay for better health care coverage. That is why you should do whatever you need to do to become rich yourself. If it was so easy to be poor, nobody would strive to be rich and nobody would produce anything of value
America works best when people work to improve their lot in life instead of demanding equal reward for substandard risk, talent and work ethic.
Somebody call an insurance agent and get quick quote of for a comprehensive medical policy to cover a family of four…
RFL
Posted June 30, 2009 at 11:08 am | Permalink
Any way you cut it, the government will have to figure out a way to get money from the healthy to pay for the health care costs for the unhealthy.
___________________________
Isn’t that what insurance companies do?
Here’s one for you. Go to your employer provided insurance and ask to drop your maternity insurance. I have absolutely no use for maternity insurance. Why am I forced to carry it?
“RFL” bemoans –
“… to figure out a way to get money from the healthy to pay for the health care costs for the unhealthy.”
Welcome to the concept of “insurance!”
If you buy life insurance and don’t die, those poor widows and orphans down the street who weren’t as lucky you cash in on the premiums you pay.
The concept is referred to as “insurance.”
If you insure your car and don’t have a wreck, all those insurance premiums are wasted, I guess.
Maybe you’ll get a horrible disease this year and really cash in on your health insurance. Lucky you!
Hope it’s not painful.
XXX,
“Why am I forced to carry it?”
Government regulations.
End of story.
I grew up in a family of four without health insurance. So did my distant relatives living last century. In fact all of my distant relatives going back to the first human being had no insurance of any kind. What is odd is that we did not all die from lack of health insurance.
Without health insurance living in 2009, you are dead. Unless or course you have a brain and can take care of yourself by using available information on hygiene, nutrition and benefits from exercise.
XXX – LOL! I’m dodging..yeah..that’s it..you imply the GOP drives healthcare to be born by employers..while McCain (lame excuse for a GOP) campaigned on taxing benefits, but severing the employer relationship by giving a $5K tax credit to allow individuals to own their policy…your boy/party…well they propose MANDATING employer coverage along with penalties for not offering coverage…oh, and just taxing benefits (weird..except for unions..you know because “contracts” need to be upheld..except of course when they’re bondholder or oil/gas lease contracts..those can be cut up whenever the Chosen One feels like it…). If your party wasn’t duplicitous it wouldn’t have ANY platform.
Now, the 2nd half of your implication is that the GOP has strapped US companies with healthcare, which is the only reason they can’t compete globally. Nice soundbyte, about an inch deep and an inch wide, as usual. US companies are also mandated to pay for unemployment insurance, FICA/Med matching, work comp insurance, prop & cas insurance, franchise taxes (in KS), higher income taxes than anyone but Japan, overtime/double time, paid holidays, FMLA, ADA, EEOC, and most paid vacation. They’re also regulated by the SEC, ICC, KCC, EPA, OSHA, FERC, IRS, etc, etc, etc, etc….now, since you dodged the question in the first place…why don’t you tell me all about how China/India/Mexico/Taiwan/S Korea/ etc, etc…you know the global competitors we can’t compete with…how they’ve matched all those govt mandated costs onto their companies!
XXX
Posted June 30, 2009 at 8:42 am | Permalink
That really puts American business at a disadvantage when it comes to global competition.
————————————————–
It would seem to me if that was reality and American Business felt that way, some kind of nationalized system would have been a reality a long time ago.
The great irony of this whole debacle is that the government intervention is the reason that Healthcare is more expensive.
I get a great chuckle out of both sides wanting to “do something” about it. How about you just get out of the way and let market forces determine Healthcare costs.
It’s like the whole housing crisis. Politicians want poor people to afford homes, but they won’t allow the prices to fall to real market levels so that poor people can afford them.
Good stuff. Carry on.
Austrian_Economist
Posted June 30, 2009 at 11:48 am | Permalink
How about you just get out of the way and let market forces determine Healthcare costs.
Are you suggesting that Healthcare is a commodity?
Or, as the Con one man think tank Joe the Plumber said, “The founding fathers knew that socialism and communism would fail”
Mr Kia,
Healthcare is a service provided by doctors. They are just like any other business. They charge a fee for their services just like an investment advisor would.
Trying to lump healthcare into one big group is wrong. An example would be saying that “healthcare is too expensive.” This is false. It depends on the doctor and what he charges for services rendered.
There is a doctor in Tennessee that charges $35 a visit. His patients get cheap catastrophic insurance coverage for very little a month and that is it. This is how healthcare should be handled. That is also the purpose of insurance. To take care of you in the event of something catastrophic occurring, not to meet regular doctor visits. That is why Healthcare costs are up today and will continue to grow.
If you subsidize something, it will grow. Bad news for the consumers, good news for government and big business.
The Republicans have a plan.
Let the poor suffer and die. That’s their plan.
BlueJay
Posted June 30, 2009 at 12:16 pm | Permalink
The Republicans have a plan.
Let the poor suffer and die. That’s their plan
——————————–
The Democrap Plan.
Let them that do pay for the ones that won’t.
Both parties are doing that BlueJay.
Unintended consequences. That little thing called economic law always foiled government plans. That is until they created a whole new school of economics to legitamize government control of economies.
Here let me help YOU.
” Let them that do pay for the ones that can’t.”
Whereas now, those with no insurance actually carry the weight for financing the care of those that do have health insurance.
Questions for the Libtards.
1. How long would it take to build all the hospitals in California?
2. How long would it take to find and educate all the doctors in California?
3. How long would it take to find and educate all the nurses and other health care workers in California?
That is roughly the size the propsed new burden on our healthcare system.
Oh yeah, no waits, it’s cheaper, we can compete in the world market, keep your same doctor….
blah, blah, blah….
BlueJay
Posted June 30, 2009 at 12:16 pm | Permalink
The Republicans have a plan.
Let the poor suffer and die. That’s their plan.
_____________________________________________________________
junior has not clue one about obamacare! Who was it from the obama team that said the old will just have to deal with the pains of growing old?
BlueJay,
How exactly are those without insurance carrying the weight for financing those who do have insurance?
BeeJay
Posted June 30, 2009 at 12:24 pm | Permalink
Here let me help YOU.
” Let them that do pay for the ones that can’t.”
Whereas now, those with no insurance actually carry the weight for financing the care of those that do have health insurance
—————————————–
Go to work and pay for your own.
You can do that in this country.
It’s called freedom.
Those without insurance get charged full price.
Now personally, I don’t know that any human being is worth ….let’s see….
$125 for a 5 minute office visit works out to…
$1500 an hour.
But doctors seem to think they rate that. Because insurance companies pay it out in group rates.
Having your health care dependent on the whims of some employer and their insurance carrier is not freedom. It is rather a milder version of slavery.
BeeJay
Posted June 30, 2009 at 12:16 pm | Permalink
The Republicans have a plan.
Let the poor suffer and die. That’s their plan
———————————————
Obamacare
Treat the ruling class.
everyone else suffers…….
“everyone else suffers”
Demonstrably ridiculous.
Roughly one sixth of our people are not covered by insurance.
If five people share a table full of food, they will not starve if a sixth sits down.
Weren’t HMO’s part of a law that was passed in 1973?
Is this not an example of how government intervention in the market has driven up the cost of something.
The greatest lie ever foisted upon unaware Americans is that the free market is cruel and cannot do a better job of allocating resources than your government can.
We haven’t had a pure free market in over a century. Even then it was tainted with a few central banks and government intervention. It is never taught to anyone in schools. People are ignorant of what it is and mix it up all the time.
BeeJay-
calculates for us-
If five people share a table full of food, they will not starve if a sixth sits down.
————————
Never mind there are only 5 chairs and 5 plates….
No one will “starve” but someone isn’t going to get to eat until someone else gets up…..
I hope there was enough mashed potatoes….
nit wit.
“We haven’t had a pure free market in over a century.”
That doesn’t mean that feudalism hasn’t been TRIED.
It just means that most people, wisely don’t like it.
BlueJay,
“Those without insurance get charged full price.”
==================================================
Some of those with insurance get charged full price too. It all depends on what plan you have. There are many who choose the Health Savings plan where they pay 100% of the cost up to a couple thousand dollars, and in return they pay a very low premium.
“$125 for a 5 minute office visit works out to…”
=================================================
That 5 minute office visit doesn’t actually take 5 minutes. It can take up to or more than an hour.
That Doctor has to fill out paperwork, run his office, pay his insurance, pay his assistants, pay for his equipment, and pay for whatever his school cost him.
“$1500 an hour.”
=================================================
Very few doctors are making anywhere near this.
“But doctors seem to think they rate that. Because insurance companies pay it out in group rates.”
=================================================
Doctors charge the amount of money that keeps them competitive and allows for them to survive.
And our system NOW has people fighting each other over the chairs, plates and food.
All so insurance companies can get rich NOT providing coverage.
My great aunt is 91. She is on medicare.
Saturday morning, she fell and broke her hip. She came through the surgery THIS MORNING fine, thank you for asking. The delay was only due to the surgeon being out of town.
Correct BlueJay. That is why both parties need to be taken out of power. They have proven that their way of governing is inadequate. Just look all around you. The deterioration of America has been going on for a long time.
You can have a civil conversation with me. I support neither party and have no bias towards anything except freedom.
BJ – instead of random unsubstantiated ramblings from someone who obviously knows nothing about health insurance…let alone the cost to run a business in general…why don’t you prove that insurance companies pay docs $125 per 5 minute visit. As a former Controller, I had to pay many office visit fees for work comp related services…never was one $125 per visit.
Who pays for the docs office, nurses, receptionist, insurance, equipment, education, supplies, billing software, etc, etc, etc…people who are paying insurance premiums so the doc gets paid for services rendered or those who don’t have insurance? If the govt’s so great at running healthcare, why is it that a lot of docs won’t take medicare/medicaid patients anymore, when the govt tells them what they’ll get paid vs negotiates it like an insurance company has to do in the free mkt?
At your table for 5, do you mandate random strangers to eat at your house for free…you know…because it’s not like your family would starve if you just fed whoever wanted to eat at your house so they didn’t have to grow/buy any food themselves? As long as that stranger’s got no skin in the game, what’s to stop him from coming back to your house every night for 3 squares? How many times do you guys have to relearn the same lesson of the tragedy of the commons?? You passed out welfare in the “war on poverty” like candy…huh…weird, the # of poor people increased and the nuclear family representation went to zero because you paid fathers to not be involved! How many times do you have to learn the same “there’s no such thing as a free lunch” concept? Not even in your imaginary “utopia” that you believe govt can bring about.
Austrian_Economist
Posted June 30, 2009 at 12:11 pm | Permalink
Mr Kia,
Healthcare is a service provided by doctors. They are just like any other business. They charge a fee for their services just like an investment advisor would.
Trying to lump healthcare into one big group is wrong. An example would be saying that “healthcare is too expensive.” This is false. It depends on the doctor and what he charges for services rendered.
There is a doctor in Tennessee that charges $35 a visit. His patients get cheap catastrophic insurance coverage for very little a month and that is it. This is how healthcare should be handled. That is also the purpose of insurance. To take care of you in the event of something catastrophic occurring, not to meet regular doctor visits. That is why Healthcare costs are up today and will continue to grow.
If you subsidize something, it will grow. Bad news for the consumers, good news for government and big business.
————————————————–
I think there is a lot more to quality Health Care than Office Visits and Catastrophic illness.
It’s the in between that is driving up the costs.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the answer is a total Government takeover to fix any problem. Cutting lawns is evidently a cost our city Government can’t even get under control.
If anything Doctors and Hospitals themselves have created a collusion in costs of services.
BlueJay,
“And our system NOW has people fighting each other over the chairs, plates and food.”
=============================================
No it doesn’t.
“All so insurance companies can get rich NOT providing coverage.”
=============================================
Then why are a majority of Americans satisfied with their plans?
I like mine. I get coverage just fine.
“My great aunt is 91. She is on medicare.
Saturday morning, she fell and broke her hip. She came through the surgery THIS MORNING fine, thank you for asking. The delay was only due to the surgeon being out of town.”
================================================
Ok. I am happy for her. Your point?
Austrian wrote: “It is never taught to anyone in schools. People are ignorant of what it is and mix it up all the time.”
____________
AMEN, my brother or sister!!!! I, for one, don’t believe that’s by accident. We teach the snot out of government, all through K-12 though, again, not by accident. Civics is a required course & “History/Social Studies – if they still call it that) are at least 75% study of govt’s role in our lives & the promotion of govt leaders as icons.
I dare you to find a “free market” related article in a regular newspaper (not the Wall St Journal or something like that). But on a daily basis, you’ll find 20 or 30 articles that involved govt just in the WE. Again, this isn’t by accident.
On KPTS they used to have a show “Ask Your Legislator” on Sundays. I’ve called in several times and asked several state legislators why capitalism/free markets are never broached in K-12…my favorite answer was “that’s a good question..but they must be teaching it somewhere, because my daughter’s in high school and she seems to understand free markets…” Ah…if only they’d allow follow up questions on that show…would’ve loved to asked that state rep to name/define a free market principle!
Not like many principles would be difficult to teach either…would actually be more fun that most subjects…creative destruction, spontaneous order, sunk costs, tragedy of the commons, etc. The closest I’ve seen to any attempt at it is the Jr Achievement group that does 1 hr lectures in classrooms…not quite the same as it being part of a curriculum.
DFB,
I recently went through a class on principles of the Market.
A very simple demonstration we had:
The instructors went to walmart and bought a bunch of random cheap things like a water proof match holder, hair ties, a whistle, and various other little things.
They put them in brown bags and randomly gave one to everyone.
We had to look in the bag and assign a value to the item from 1 to 5. (1 being not very valuable to a 5 being very valuable)
They took all our numbers added them up and came up with 50 over all value.
Then they allowed us to trade.
Then we got to assign value again.
This time the total value amount was 75.
Such a simple demonstration to understand basic market value concepts.
And you know what most of us thought?
Why don’t they teach this stuff in grade school?
Aust,
“We haven’t had a pure free market in over a century.”
Actually. nobody’s ever had a true free market for more than a few minutes at a time- somebody will always do their damnedest to corner it! Pure capitalism is a theoretical construct that has never and will never be put to an actual test because cheating is profitable in any capitalist system.
Free market really goes out the window on need items vs. wants.
I want to rent a movie. I can sit at home and not get off my arse and get a Cox on demand for $5. I can sign up for Netflix and see what is coming next for as little as $9 a month. Or I can go to the RedBox on the corner and see what’s available tonight for $1.
I just had a heart attack. I’m not gonna shop around.
Mr_Kia,
No one expects to shop around for emergency care after the fact.
However, you can shop around before it happens.
Actually, there should be more freedom in doing just that.
Jed,
That is why you must have government. It is a necessary evil for this reason. You need someone to enforce fraud laws. Enron was punished by the state of Texas. There was no need for Sarbanes-Oxley to pass. That monstrosity of a bill forced companies overseas and has killed businesses who cannot incur the additional costs.
The great irony of the monopoly is that the only way they can come about is by government intervening in the free market. Wrap your head around that one.
What makes Congress believe that Americans wants health insurance?
I do not know exactly how many other people that there are that prefer not to carry insurance but can afford it.
But I do know that government reform is not going to fix the problem of the unaffordable health care cost.
Insurance is not the total problem but the complicated forms and those medical facilities charging outrages prices are a deterrent to care.
I think that much of the health care system is about paying for someone else’s luxury, not just the actual cost.
Talking the other day to my brother, he told me that there are a growing group of doctors that are not taking any insurance at all because of the trouble of dealing with them but will deal with patience one on one with a financial payment plan, directly to them.
He could not give me any names as to who is doing this but it is worth looking into.
There are still doctors out there that believe in the reasons of the old philosophies of the profession.
Outstanding, though long, Article on ObamaCare:
http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2009/06/30/columnists/clayson/11444162.txt
Sunday, June 28, 2009 8:59 AM CDT
Socialized medicine takes away freedom
By DENNIS CLAYSON
Every regional newspaper will get several letters a day until the current issue is resolved on nationalized health care. These letters are designed to give the impression that there is grass-roots support for these programs. You can buy into this premise if you wish, but you are being foolish to do so.
We also will be exposed to a wide variety of policy proposals, all with attractive sounding labels. The labels are as meaningless as the promises made by their proponents.
When the government makes health care decisions and pretends to pay the tab, then we are experiencing socialized medicine. It will be called almost anything else because Americans don’t like the sound of the word “socialized,” but that is what it is.
The entire debate about health insurance and the millions who do not have coverage is a smoke screen. The holy grail of socialism is socialized medicine, and any means is justified to achieve it, including misdirection and outright lying.
Why is this issue so important?
Socialized medicine changes the fundamental relationship of citizens to their government, and it changes not only the role of government, but even the very concept of government itself.
The fundamental American view has traditionally been that society is composed of free people who voluntarily associate with each other. They have rights as individuals independent of any external authority. One of those rights is the ability to control property, which includes your own body.
The people create governments to expedite certain group functions and to safeguard the property rights of individuals.
Like nuclear reactors, governments are useful but potentially dangerous instruments that need to be controlled and regulated, not by other governments, but by the people themselves.
Socialized medicine completely reverses this process. Citizens become wards of the state who must be controlled and regulated. The government decides who should get care and how much care should be given. Property must eventually come under governmental control in such a system, including the ultimate property of your own body.
Citizens become dependent children. The government becomes their parents.
The government, however, is all-powerful and its human core always is blurred by levels and levels of bureaucracy, regulations, and rules so the immediate human interactions become displaced by procedure and protocol. Add to this its ability to make life and death decisions and the government takes on the qualities of a capricious god.
This is why the advocates of socialized medicine, other than the economic illiterates who still believe in Santa Claus, aren’t moved by arguments based on history, statistics and cost estimates.
Tell them that these programs don’t work. Tell them horror stories of nations that have preceded us down this path. Show them the inhuman face of almost all government programs, tell them that we don’t have the money and they just shrug. They don’t care, because ultimately this has nothing to do with health care, or budgets or logic. It has to do with the socialist dream, and ultimately with power.
Some mistakenly believe that this issue is related to compassion and moral reasoning. They may say to opponents, “You don’t care about people. Would you deny care to a person who can’t pay for their health care?”
Besides pointing out the irony that the proposed solution to the cost of health care is more government intervention into a problem created largely by prior governmental meddling, the argument is mostly statistical nonsense. Consider this however; what have people in the past given for freedom?
Americans have been willing to pick up their weapons and go anywhere in the world in defense of freedom. Many Americans have been willing to die for this ideal. So now we are being told we lack compassion because we are unwilling to give up almost all of our remaining freedoms for a cheaper bottle of medicine from Wal-Mart.
But souls are cheap when governments play god.
Nathaniel – perfect example! Kids might actually enjoy that exercise as well. You can use that same exercise to teach spontaneous order as well, by asking 1 kid in the class to handout the sacks/goodies based on what they think is best….then let the kids trade openly to drive home the same point about central planning vs allowing individual’s to make their own logical choices. Another simple spontaneous order exercise is the “pencil” scenario, where you simply walk through where the wood, the rubber of the eraser, the graphite for lead, paint, metal band to hold the eraser on, etc all come from…all so you can buy a pencil for $.25 or less…then imagine what it would cost to make it yourself. You can literally use any object in the room.
Creative destruction’s even easier, as most kids have cell phones, laptops & ipods…so walk them through the evolution of each of those technologies to give them what they now take for granted, how the previous “technology” was destroyed, but resources were then allowed to be deployed more efficiently again.
But none of this taught in public schools…but by golly it’s crucial to memorize the Presidents in order, how many people make up congress, how often election cycles run, have multiple music/art/shop/phys ed options…but nothing on how the economy works…
Now add to Nathan’s example taxation, regulation, and litigation on select items in the ‘products’ bag, and see what happens to price then.
Canada Sees Boom in Private Health Care Business
Facing long waits and substandard care, a growing number of Canadians are willing to pay for health treatment, leading to a booming private business in Canada — a country often touted as a successful example of a universal health system.
By Molly Line
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/30/canada-sees-boom-private-health-care-business/?test=latestnews
ANTI: Fox? Like Fox will say anything good about “socialsits” and never, ever cherrypick? Things you will never see in a Fox news item, though true: The OECD who monitor performances of 40 industialzed nations list the top countries for the healthcare outcome as Japan, Sweden, Norway and Canada. The 6 countries that always appear in the top 10 for educational results are Finland, Canada, Holland, Japan, Australia and New Zealand. According to Wickie the countries with the highest standards of living are: Iceland, Norway, Canada, Australia, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, Holland and the US. Note, only one (you guess which one)is a republic, the others are all “socialist”. In fact all are monarchies save the US and Ireland, proof postive the Revolution was mistake! I wonder when Fox will run this tidbit?
“$125 for a 5 minute office visit works out to…
$1500 an hour. ”
Bluejay must have the same veterinarian I do.
Amazing what they make. No government regulation. And people pay the bills – without insurance. Imagine that.
Gallup’s annual Healthcare survey, conducted Nov. 11-14, finds 57% of Americans saying they are satisfied with the total cost they pay for their healthcare, while 39% are dissatisfied. These percentages have been quite stable in recent years, after a slight dip in reported satisfaction between 2001 (64%) and 2002 (58%).
A majority of Americans see government action as critical to controlling runaway health-care costs, but there is broad public anxiety about the potential impact of reform legislation and conflicting views about the types of fixes being proposed on Capitol Hill, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.
The quality of the health care you receive
All 83%
Very Satisfied: 49
Somewhat satisfied: 34
All Cov 88%
Very Satisfied: 53
Somewhat satisfied: 35
Your health care costs, including both expenses not covered by insurance, and the cost of your insurance, if any
All 55%
Very Satisfied: 23
Somewhat satisfied: 31
All Cov 61%
Very Satisfied: 26
Somewhat satisfied: 35
Your health insurance coverage
All Cov 81%
Very Satisfied: 42
Somewhat satisfied: 39
“There’s no reason to nationalize health care because most Americans are happy with the coverage they receive — including most of those who don’t have health insurance.
Eighty-nine percent of Americans are satisfied with their own personal medical care, according to an article in Regulation magazine this week.
Of those with insurance who had suffered a serious illness during the last year, 93 percent were satisfied; 95 percent of those who suffered chronic illness were satisfied with their health care.” WashPost
While 93 percent of the insured say that they are “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with their own health care, fully 70 percent of the uninsured who indicated their level of satisfaction said the same thing.
If you take the Kaiser/ABC News/USA Today survey’s estimate of 13.4 percent of Americans being uninsured and that 17.5 percent of the uninsured are “very dissatisfied” with the care that they are receiving, just 2.3 percent of Americans are both uninsured and “very dissatisfied” with the care they receive. That amounts to 5 million people. Including all uninsured raises the total to 8.4 million. This is a far cry from the 46 million number that is frequently bandied about by politicians and media to count the uninsured.
“Roughly one sixth of our people are not covered by insurance.
If five people share a table full of food, they will not starve if a sixth sits down.”
You need to complete the story Bluejay.
Five people sat down to eat a meal they paid for. The sixth person was more than welcome to sit and join them, but the sixth voluntarily refused. He didn’t want to pay.
According to the GOP, our health care costs at twice as high (as a percentage of GDP) of Germany, Japan or the UK is because of high litigation costs.
Unbelievable.
The common elements that every other industrial country has in its health care EXCEPT US are these:
1. Insurance is non-profit and everyone must be covered. No “cherry picking,” “no pre-existing conditions.”
2. Everyone must have insurance. People too poor to afford insurance will be subsidized.
3. The insurers–or the gov’t–control costs. Everyone pays the same set of costs for the same procedures and drugs.
“Five people sat down to eat a meal they paid for. The sixth person was more than welcome to sit and join them, but the sixth voluntarily refused. He didn’t want to pay.”
The sixth person CAN’T pay.
He or she is probably preparing the food, waiting the table, washing the dishes or parking cars outside. But if he or she gets sick, at least one of the people at the table thinks that he or she should just die. FORTUNATELY, about the other four at the table are more gracious.
They may eventually ask the glutton to leave.
The time MAY even come to kick the chair out from under the glutton, roll him, and throw him out.
There’s something happening here
And you don’t know what it is,
Do you, Mrs. Jones . . .
Americans have had it with “I’ve got mine, go F yourself.” We want to help each other.
Finally.
Yes, we can.
Si, se puede.
“3. The insurers–or the gov’t–control costs. Everyone pays the same set of costs for the same procedures and drugs.”
———–
We are in the position of either embracing something like the above socialistic alternative or to return some semblance of the free market to medical care. Austrian Economist pointed out earlier that:
“Weren’t HMO’s part of a law that was passed in 1973?
Is this not an example of how government intervention in the market has driven up the cost of something.
The greatest lie ever foisted upon unaware Americans is that the free market is cruel and cannot do a better job of allocating resources than your government can.
We haven’t had a pure free market in over a century. Even then it was tainted with a few central banks and government intervention. It is never taught to anyone in schools. People are ignorant of what it is and mix it up all the time.” END
Currently we have just enough socialism in the system to screw up the free market. Reintroduction of the free market into health care has to be part of any Republican alternative plan. This is the only way, short of the drastic one payor system, that I guarantee you will despise, to control medical costs.
Facing long waits and substandard care, a growing number of Canadians from FOX NEWS.
Freedom of the press belongs to Rupert Murdoch, who owns it . . .
Fortunately, 60-70 percent of actual Americans want health care reform NOW.
Hmmm, rather than Fox News anecdotes, let’s look at the World Health Organization’s ratings of 2007:
1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan . . .
30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States of America 38 Slovenia 39 Cuba
*****
It’s that damn “reality has a liberal bias” thing again!
outlander–
Take a look at the 36 countries that have better health care than the US above.
How many of them have “free market” health care?
Answer: zero.
Sorry, when it comes to saving one’s life, demand is fairly inelastic (heavy sarcasm).
Doctors who purport to cure you of a dreaded disease or condition can charge you anything they want. What are you going to do? Die?
We have the most expensive health care system in the world . . . and it ranks behind freakin’ Costa Rica.
Nathan writes I recently went through a class on principles of the Market.
Was that before or after you washed out of the program, Nathan?
Before, apparently . . .
Americans have had it with “I’ve got mine, go F yourself.” We want to help each other. – CapnA
Nah, what happened Capn, is that the voters forgot what a socialist looked like and did and elected one of the darn things. Because of that stupidity, we have to put up with this kind of this socialistic government intrusion.
Capn’s statement above just illustrates what happens when you put socialists in control. They feel compassion by how much of your money they can take to use it how they want. Largely to buy benefits for voters that can keep them in power. That is not compassion. It is robbery by law. In fairness, to Capn though, he may be a true believer/dupe of the power mongers.
As I pointed out earlier, seating the Frankenweenie is the beginning of the end for democrat rule. No excuses. They own it now. Personally, seeing all the problems out there, I wouldn’t want to own it. There will be a lot of ’splaining to do. We can look forward to a lot of tap dancing the next couple of years. It won’t be pretty.
outlander–
Feel free to move out of the country if you don’t like it.
Somalia has no income tax.
Or health care.
Or roads.
Or schools.
They do have piracy as job opportunity though . . .
Your Christian compassion for your fellow man is rather underwhelming outlander.
outlander honestly believes that the reason poor people don’t have good health care in this country is because of . . . wait for it . . . HMO’s in 1973.
If only we could go back those wonderful days of “pure capitalism” like the 1880’s when rich men played golf and while poor children were chained to the loom.
I wish these “laizze-faire” capitalists could all move somewhere like the Klondick and set up “AynRandland.”
They could amuse themselves by pointing and laughing at once rich people bankrupted and living on the street from medical bills.
And consider themselves “blessed by God” because they were not among them . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e0EQlQXoEo&feature=related
Here’s one for you, outlander.
You can run on . . . for a long time.
You can run on . . . for a long time.
You can run on . . . for a long time.
Great God Almighty gonna cut you down.
AS usual, Capn can’t have a discussion. He has to go off the deep end of the ridiculous.
Hey good video though. I love Johnny Cash! Song sounds a bit evangelistic for the blog though.
Thanks for admitting defeat, outlander.
I thought it pretty much went off the rails with “HMO’s in 1973.”
I don’t know how you can like Johnny Cash, outlander.
Didn’t you hear the old boy explaining why Johnny always wore black?
Because he identified with the poor and the downtrodden.
Damn socialist.
Kinda like Jesus.
Socialist.
As Act 2 describes (KJV):
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
*****
Communists.
“Fortunately, 60-70 percent of actual Americans want health care reform NOW.”
The majority of Americans are satisfied w/their healthcare. Like 88%. Even those who do NOT have healthcare insurance – are satisfied (see three polls above).
Dims have created a media event to support their goal of control.
Despite what 285,000,000 Americans are satisfied with.
Dim’s say, “We are going to give you healthcare insurance and you WILL like it – whether you want to or not.”
It’s a great propoganda game. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how dims flip the numbers. Excellent spin.
Hmmm:
WASHINGTON — Wal-Mart is the latest in a line of traditionally Republican-leaning businesses to embrace key portions of President Barack Obama’s bid to overhaul health care, a trend that could complicate opponents’ efforts to build a united front when Congress ramps up its work on the issue this summer.
Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest private employer, on Tuesday endorsed the idea of requiring large companies to offer health insurance to their workers.
“the “Last Page” columnist in The Smithsonian stated that when an adversary uses an inappropriate Hitler or Nazi comparison, “you have only to say ‘Godwin’s Law’ and a trapdoor falls open, plunging your rival into a pool of hungry crocodiles.”"
Godwin’s Law.
Walmart on the right?
Really? Since when?
NEWS FLASH!
Corporate American, including Wally World are chompin at the bit to unload their health care plan costs on ObamaCare!
Of course most businesses will support ObamaCare.
ObamaCare shifts Health Care costs onto the Taxpayer.
MORE CORPORATE PROFITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AmWay compares the Dems to Nazis.
That is one smart boy.
LOL
What makes you think that I don’t identify with the disadvantaged Capn? I simply prefer to provide a hand up, of my own volition, and not to just be an enabler.
BTW, it’ll by a cold day in heck when I admit defeat by the likes of you, CapnSocialist. And if folks like you have their way, we will be Euro West and we will no longer be an exceptional nation. Mediocrity is no way to go through life.
Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest private employer, on Tuesday endorsed the idea of requiring large companies to offer health insurance to their workers.
———–
And since Walmart (originator of the $4.00 RX) already does, that little bit of PR didn’t cost ‘em a dime.
“I simply prefer to provide a hand up, of my own volition, and not to just be an enabler. ”
An enabler of what? People who are hurting getting medical care?
In other words what you are telling us is that you prefer to see yourself as some sort of divine hand, deciding who does and who does not pass your muster to ease their suffering. Why am I thinking I could not rely on your tender mercies?
We are going to HAVE to figure out how to better distribute care anyway.
We have mandated it already for an aging population and we are beginning to enter the care intensive years for those folks.
We may as well accept that health care is GOING to be an entitlement for a significant portion of the population and expand that to the entire population.
June 30, 2009
PRINCETON, NJ — A Gallup Poll finds a statistically significant increase since last year in the percentage of Americans who describe the Democratic Party’s views as being “too liberal,” from 39% to 46%. This is the largest percentage saying so since November 1994, after the party’s losses in that year’s midterm elections.
————-
Surprise. And that % is going nowhere but up.
Duh Democratic Party Liberals remind of of looters in a riot. “Smash and Grab” mentality and politics…
“Surprise. And that % is going nowhere but up.”
Really?
I was once a Ronald Reagan Republican.
Now I am a dyed in the wool socialist.
I couldn’t DO the things Ronnie did. Because I have you know like pride and integrity.
“BTW, it’ll by a cold day in heck…”
OOh, OOh, better being saying some prayers for that outburst, church lady.
Shut the hell up Davis. Better?
Hey Steven, just wondering, why did you decide to quit being substantive and become a drive by poster?
If folks like outlander had their way, my great aunt would have been denied care for her broken hip.
Perhaps you can provide an example of folks getting denied care for a broken hip.
I’ll be right over here, BJ.
But I’m glad you brought that up BJ. With government run health care there will be hard decisions made for the “good of the people of the country”. Such as at what age would you no longer qualify for a hip replacement surgery. What life saving treatment can gbe given an individual. Government bureaucrats will make the decisions on your health care. All sorts of behaviors will be declared illegal because they are unhealthy and thus costs the people in health care costs. Freedoms will erode.
Like Regular said, “smash and grab”.
You oppose public health care outlander.
SURELY that includes medicare too?
The question here is which direction do we go.
Do we go toward health care as an entitlement or away from it?
The aging baby boomer generation and established policy says we go toward it.
By the way? THANK YOU taxpayers. My great aunt is one tough old boot of a lady and did 20 years as an in class grandmother in the Wichita public schools. She has beat the odds more than once.
We often hear of how care will be denied under a public health care system. I’m not seeing it.
What insurance company would give my great aunt the care that she needs at her advanced age unless she or someone else could pay for it? She isn’t rich. Her family is not rich. But she has been a boon to countless youngsters. What price do you put on that?
BlueJay
Posted June 30, 2009 at 11:12 pm | Permalink
You oppose public health care outlander.
SURELY that includes medicare too?
———–
As Johnny Carson would say to the late Ed McMahon, “wrong, Castro breath”.
My great aunt had a DNR (do not resuscitate order).
So, it wasn’t her time. She made it.
YOUR argument makes no sense outlander.
People will advocate for the care of themselves and their family. We can vote on that. IF it is as you say, it is correctable.
Insurance companies and employers are not known for their mercy. It is THEY who will err to the bottom line and deny care. As we already see.
If you hate insurance companies, you will really hate government bureaucrats.
I see “Drive by Davis” hasn’t responded. Pity.
And with that, I’m out. Peace.
Well outlander,
Because of pre existing conditions, I am uninsurable and not able for hire with companies with insurance.
It seems that at the ripe old age of 42, the “free market” has declared me expendable.
I don’t think my 91 year old great aunt is expendable. And I myself don’t feel expendable just because greedy people say so.
Established entitlements are going to have to expand anyway. That is a demographic fact. We may as well continue that expansion. The private sector is well able to take care of itself. Of that I can assure you.
“If you hate insurance companies, you will really hate government bureaucrats. ”
And here is the great lie from the right.
People will vote FOR their and their family’s health care. They will agree it is a collective right and will not resist contributing to that. Leave it in the hands of commerce and the focus will ALWAYS be on the bottom line. THAT is what the right is really afraid of. It is their nature to keep people divided, unrepresented and at each other’s throats.
CapnAmerica,
“CapnAmerica
Posted June 30, 2009 at 8:10 pm | Permalink
Nathan writes I recently went through a class on principles of the Market.
Was that before or after you washed out of the program, Nathan?
Before, apparently . . .”
I have said nothing to you in this thread. The only thing you post to me is a personal attack?
Just the other day you posted about civility here.
I made an offer to you to be civil. Here you are doing what exactly if not proving that just like MonkeyHawk, BlueJay, and JM Walker that you are the one who has no intention of being civil here.
Once again, I will extend the offer of civility to you.
It was you who brought it up and inspired me.
I was hoping for better from you.
Captain America: The WHO has an agenda and health care is not on it. Implementing the guidelines they suggest is, and counts for more in their ranking system than the actual results and costs. Just like the UN Human Rights Council which is comprised mainly of African States (it’s their turn) chaired by Lybia(?)it leaves a lot to question. OECD reflects the real world
Because of pre existing conditions, I am uninsurable and not able for hire with companies with insurance.
===========================================
BS.
#
ANTI
Posted July 1, 2009 at 8:22 am | Permalink
Because of pre existing conditions, I am uninsurable and not able for hire with companies with insurance.
===========================================
BS.
——————
I wasn’t aware that slobbering, spitting and drooling would have kept him out of the job market.
Perhaps he got jinxed when he tried to cheat his Union bosses out on a claim that was falsified and he got caught? This may be the ‘pre-existing condition’ Junior is talking about. Falsifying a health claim.
If that’s true Beej, you have a discrimination lawsuit at your fingertips. You should pursue that vs. the Government cheese you are currently receiving.
I have never heard of an employer asking questions of personal health history, beyond limitations that would keep you from doing the job you are applying for; i.e. a back injury when applying to be a fire fighter for example – in which case you would be eligible for retraining thru a number of Gov’t programs.
Seems Mitch got up in the Senate last week and listed the “terrible” wait times in a hospital in a small Ontario town. He got a letter from a “fellow” Senator..a Canadian Senator, the leader of the Conservative Party in their Senate whose hometown Mitch was describing. The Canadian Senator pointed out the entire content of Mitch’s speech was wrong and gave him the right numbers and noted that the average lifespan in Ontario was 80 vs 74.5 in Kentucky. The item was covered by the G&M last week…. I just recalled it now.
Gotta add one more thing about the two Senators. Seem Mitch noted a horrendous time for gallstone surgery in that little town. His counterpart explained they don’t go to the knife there, they encourage diet/eating habit changes then ultra sound to smash the stones which are then passed.
“Government bureaucrats will make the decisions on your health care”
Horse-pucky.
Easy question……………….
Would you rather have a government bureaucrat with NO financial interest make decisions for your health care or…………….. would you rather have a insurance company bureaucrat with EVERY financial interest make decisions for your health care.
“Would you rather have a government bureaucrat with NO financial interest make decisions for your health care or…………….. would you rather have a insurance company bureaucrat with EVERY financial interest make decisions for your health care”.
——————
Umm… Dont think so Clark. The insurance company desk jockeys are just like everyone else. Their interest in correctly processing a claim is keeping their job. Just like a government bureaucrat. Both will have to abide by criteria for payment and coverage.
But the government bureaucrat is more powerful and thus less flexible.
“Their interest in correctly processing a claim is keeping their job”
No it isn’t – their interest is in keeping costs down – they are working for a “FOR PROFIT” organization.
My “father” had quad bypass at 82. What “for profit” insurance company do you think would have covered that?
So…, you want the health care system run by an entity that doesn’t want to keep costs down? Hello taxes out the butt.
And your Dad had Medicare and is lucky that Obama government healthcare isn’t here yet. By the Obama’s own admission there will necessarily be age restrictions on eligibility for certain procedures etc…
I’m telling you Clark, socialized medicine isn’t going to the cotton candy and bunny rabbits dream that you liberals think. I’m hoping you don’t have to learn that.
“I’m telling you Clark, socialized medicine isn’t going to the cotton candy and bunny rabbits dream that you liberals think. I’m hoping you don’t have to learn that.”
______________________________________
an OPINION is just like an @rsehole…everyone (even the Jesusized outie) has one…
lol
“So…, you want the health care system run by an entity that doesn’t want to keep costs down? Hello taxes out the butt.”
How would that be different from the current “FU eat this increase or drop your coverage” plan from private insurance companies?
Or the “sorry, your condition demands that we cancel your coverage” meme from private insurance companies?