Hooray for Hutchinson for landing a new wind turbine plant that is expected to employ 400 people. Germany-based Siemens selected Hutchinson because of its central location, work force and transportation logistics. Turbine manufacturing is a natural fit for this region, but we’ve been slow in pursuing it. The Hutchinson plant is a great start at achieving Gov. Mark Parkinson’s vision of “a corridor of factories from Wichita to Salina” that will “make Kansas the renewable energy leader of the country.”
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568 Comments
I’m glad to hear that Hutch got some new jobs, and that they’ll be building wind turbines. But even wind turbines could end up causing climate difficulties. When they take energy from the wind, they do just that; remove energy from a portion of the climatic system. Before we plant too many forests of these things in our fields, we need to study the effects and calculate the tipping points that the loss of energy from our winds alters our climate. And we ought to diversify our green energy sources and do as much as possible to cut our energy use. Ain’t no such thing as a free lunch!
Good for Hutch and good for south central Kansas.
“Jed” –
Even the tallest wind turbine affects only surface winds. And the sky goes up a long way.
I suppose sapping some wind energy might pose a theoretical change; but sincerely doubt it.
Ever hear of the Butterfly effect that theorizes that a butterfly flapping its wings in China could start a chain reaction of atmospheric events that eventually result in a Hurricane somewhere. How much more so all these windmills? There’s your climate change cosmos.
Anybody care to bet that Gov. Parkinson had a heads up about the Seimans plant coming to Hutch before he made his bold prediction the other day?
Chris, by that reasoning a butterfly flapping its wings could stop a hurricane. It’s equally as plausible.
Monk,
Given our so far endless desire for energy, any one source will be tapped until there’s none left. A mere half-century ago, the idea that oil would eventually run out was considered absurd, or that its continued use would bring us possible disaters.
Any energy source is energy already running one natural system or other, and the consequences of taking from it shouldn’t be blythely dismissed, but studied and managed.
We live on a finite planet with finite resouces, and treating any of them as infinite is what eventually gets us into serious trouble. A major part of being green is the economy of using what we have more efficiently, of deciding what uses are too frivolous and must be eliminated, of new technologies to reduce waste in already existing systems, and of assessing the future damage potential of the sources we choose. What it all adds up to is determining how long we can make our own survival as species stretch. It won’t be to infinity I assue you.
Jed,
I shared your concerns about windmills affecting climate by disruption of windflow.
I have asked it of a number of meteorologists. They answer that power generated by fossil fuels does FAR more to alter or affect climate than any number of wind turbines ever could.
MP,
Kill the damn butterflies!
“Chrisfrommactown” shares his
Netflix queueenlightenment –“Ever hear of the Butterfly effect that theorizes that a butterfly flapping its wings in China could start a chain reaction of atmospheric events that eventually result in a Hurricane somewhere?”
Yeah. It’s an ultimate thought problem involved with Chaos Theory.
It’s not like a billion pick-up trucks might stir up a bit more dust that a butterfly. Or wind turbine.
Amazing desperation starts early today from WE Blog CONs.
Blue,
Given the forests of oil wells that now exist in some places, your experts’ “any number of wind turbines” could grow to absolutely huge numbers before too long, and would naturally be concentrated in places where the most energy could be reaped. I’d like to know where we could end up before we commit all our resources down that road.
Solar power may also have environmental consequences when many vast solar farms are built and the sun’s energy that once powered the winds ends up running toasters.
“Jed” –
For a hundred and fifty years capitalism has “committed all our resources” to fossil fuels.
Even if — and it’s a big if; as sophomorically theoretic as “Chrisfrommactown’s” butterfly effect — it’s clear for the next 150 years or more wind and solar have a much lesser impact on climate that coal and petroleum.
There’s no way wind turbine technology cans stop all breezes from Kansas slipping over across the Missouri line.
I suppose someone might one day build a wind farm with go 10 miles high to capture the jet stream… and all winds below it. But that’s not gonna happen tomorrow. The sun will burn out first, whether there are solar energy fields or not.
Some tree pollen was released into the atmosphere and I sneezed. Look out for Typhoon Monkeyhawk, Sri Lanka!
Please…
it’s clear for the next 150 years or more wind and solar have a much lesser impact on climate that coal and petroleum.
And you have irrefutable scientific peer reviewed proof of this correct? I mean it just wouldn’t be like you to pull something out of your @ss because it goes along with your party’s maniacal rail against the fossil fuel industry.
It IS wise to be mindful before committing ourselves to pursuit of new sources of energy Jed.
I wish our forefathers had been so mindful instead of just going with what was quick and easy.
Remember though, that harvesting the wind and the Sun are passive activities. The wind is gonna blow and the Sun is gonna shine. Using these is far less disruption on the environment than pulling carbon millions of years in the ground and putting it in the air.
Too, it merits mentioning that the greatest source of energy we have is in the conservation of what we currently waste.
Solie find the kids table.
Solie find the kids table.
Why? I don’t want to eat with you.
60 liters of gear oil per transmission on the smaller wind turbines.
Wind turbines in tornado ally.
You people really don’t see the down side do you.
Swallow hard, they’ve put a bitter pill in your mouth.
Actually?
I should apologize for that.
To kids.
Kids have the right ideas as to energy conservation and creative and mindful use of resources. I want to eat at the kids table.
Solie? Go find your place. If it has been dug yet. If it hasn’t find a shovel.
OH GEEEEZE!!!
Look at me. I thought you greenies were out to save the environment. HA! You people just want to attack the fossil fuel industry. So I guess a few thousand acres of farm land drenched with gear oil, unusable for God knows how long, clean ups in the millions if not billions… Trashing the environment really doesn’t concern you. It is attacking the energy industry that is your goal isn’t it?
Spilled oil. Isn’t that what you people whined about when the drill here drill now crowd spoke up?
Oh yeah, I saw this one get started.
I wouldn’t choose ANTI to lead me out of a fire there solie.
I SAW this new “argument” against wind power.
“Wind turbines have oil in them! They MIGHT get hit by a tornado!”
Embarrassing. How embarrassing.
Monk,
“There’s no way wind turbine technology cans stop all breezes from Kansas slipping over across the Missouri line.”
Of course not. But slowing them down even a little, which is what turbines do to capture energy, may have consequences to the climate. Treating forests, wetlands, fishing grounds, cropland, wildlife etc. as inexhaustible, infinite resources has already cost us plenty. Let’s not make that mistake again.
“ANTI” only brought it here though.
It would be interesting to find the original source of this bit of ridiculous desperation. I gotta give it cred for creativity.
Desperate, creativity.
“SolDevVB” bleats –
“…you have irrefutable scientific peer reviewed proof…?”
See, this is why discussing science with science-deniers is so frustrating.
The simple fact is: that’s not how science works.
Every generally accepted theory is challenged by other scientists. That’s what they’re for.
Even “laws” of physics are challenged successfully. As with Newton’s laws of motion, etc. Yeah, it’s a “law” because that was what Ike proved in the 17th Century. Until someone noted on a revolving earth that orbits around a sun that’s constantly expanding within one of many galaxies…there is no such thing as “a body at rest.”
For most things, Newton’s science works. But there’s no way it would be called a “law” these days.
So the anti-scientists jump on the term “theory” as if it were the same as some wild-eyed conjecture.
No, nobody has “irrefutable scientific peer-review proof,” because there’s no such thing. About anything.
Yours is a spurious, diversionary, and irrelevant question.
Look: you CONs parrot talking points and repeatedly reveal you have no idea what you’re talking about.
John Lott’s (Olin Foundation-funded; you know who Olin is, don’t you?) study about concealed carry treats every county in America as equal. If there are no gun crimes in Gove County, Kansas it negates all gun crimes in Wyandotte County. It sorta skews the results, don’tcha think?
Scientific terminology these days looks at data and is filled with language such as “…evidence indicates…” or “…the theory suggests…” just so no one thinks the scientist is getting too big for his/her britches.
“It’s turtles!
All the way down!”
BlueJay
Posted May 6, 2009 at 8:14 am | Permalink
…
Kids have the right ideas
…
============================================================
This from Father of the Year junior… Who also penned:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/05/truce-in-the-2-year-coal-war/comment-page-4/#comment-566833
“I teach my son to hate …”
I wouldn’t choose ANTI to lead me out of a fire there solie.
==================
That is sad.
I would be going away from the fire.
You better turn before you burn BlueJay.
BlueJay
Posted May 6, 2009 at 8:21 am | Permalink
“ANTI” only brought it here though.
It would be interesting to find the original source of this bit of ridiculous desperation. I gotta give it cred for creativity.
=================================
Idiot.
I am very familiar with wind turbines because I have been involved in their construction.
What do you know about them?
Funny that the opinion page took the time to explain how delaying a scheduled tax cut isn’t an increase in taxes, and how great a Siemens plant in Hutch will be, but failed to mention a word about what carrots were offered by taxpayers to get the plant. Not that I begrudge Hutch or the jobs, they’ve lost a lot of jobs with Eaton layoffs and several other manufacturers leaving town. But it’s kinda funny to me that there’s no mention of the “rich package of incentives” offered from our state/fed/local governments who are all broke already…$5M from KS, $2M from city/county, 109 acres of land free with 90 more in the que if they want them, local govt to build a rail spur at $2.5M, and then “other training grants and forgivable loans” for which of course the amount is TBD at a later point. So, that puts us as taxpayers on the hook for a $10M+ investment in this wind related plant…plus the $110M or so in rate increases Westar gave us recently to pay for mandated wind projects….now if only we can get to pay for some more windmills, and more incentives for the “corridor of factories from Salina to Wichita”…we’ll be rich! Good thing we can not give existing business’ any kind of cut, while we can afford to pay wind businesses…
SolDevVB
Posted May 6, 2009 at 8:13 am | Permalink
60 liters of gear oil per transmission on the smaller wind turbines.
=============================
Those are way smaller than the turbines used on Kansas wind farms.
How many wind turbines have survived tornadoes?
No, nobody has “irrefutable scientific peer-review proof,” because there’s no such thing.
Nothing like a good ol’ self defeating statement in the morning…
Can Monkeyhawk prove that nobody has proof about anything?
We shouldn’t forget about nuclear energy. Get real energy generated in addition to fiddling around with these renewable energies that will never be more than supplemental sources.
These whacky greenies. Just can’t win for losing.
==================================================================
Parts of Obama’s Green Energy Plan Fuel Discontent Among Environmentalists
Many local activists say the rush to renewables, backed by Obama, risks trading one power problem for another
By Dan Springer
FOXNews.com
Tuesday, May 05, 2009
A key part of President Obama’s energy plan — replacing fossil fuels with green alternatives — is facing increasing opposition from an unlikely source: environmentalists.
Some environmentalists, who have successfully fought a wind farm on the border of Oregon and Washington, are trying to block a massive solar plant in the Mojave desert. And now an Oregon county is considering a ban on wind power in the foothills of the blue mountains.
The gear oil in all the windmills is inconsequential when compared to the oil in oil storage devices (think refineries, autos, etc.),as is the loss of wind energy. Just consider how much wind energy is being produced by millions of vehicles moving down interstates.
The gear oil in all the windmills is inconsequential when compared to the oil in oil storage devices (think refineries, autos, etc.)
=====================
Refineries and tank farms have containment systems in place, wind farms do not.
BTW, Windmills pump water. Wind turbines produce electricity.
Gear oil is just a drop in the bucket….don’t forget about the horrendous barotrauma…why do green energy folks hate bats so much?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14593-wind-turbines-make-bat-lungs-explode.html?feedId=online-news_rss20
soldevvb posted May 6, 2009 at 8:02 am
it’s clear for the next 150 years or more wind and solar have a much lesser impact on climate that coal and petroleum.
And you have irrefutable scientific peer reviewed proof of this correct? I mean it just wouldn’t be like you to pull something out of your @ss because it goes along with your party’s maniacal rail against the fossil fuel industry.
———————
Science is based on theories, not “proof”.
And LOL! soldevvb is demanding “proof”, after refusing to even provide a source. Too funny!
What did you pull your (misquoted) percentage claim out of, soldevvb?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/05/open-thread-51-2/#comment-564439
If the number is wrong cos, post the correct one.
You have been terrified of that for close to five weeks now.
How pathetically small is the figure cos?
Why do you just attack? If the number is wrong, post the correct one.
What a chicken $hit !!!
I even posted an offer of $100 for a valid number. You are too chicken $hit to collect?
soldevvb,
Your “number” is meaningless.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/05/truce-in-the-2-year-coal-war/#comment-567459
At least Europe is assuming their position of the leaders of the world and jumping on the wind bandwagon…http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/05/06/storm-of-protest-erupts-over-new-wind-farm-plans-at-rushton/
Cosmo,
Thank you for proving you have no understanding of how humans might impact climate.
cosmos squeals:
Science is based on theories, not “proof”.
Actually cosmos, you are wrong when it comes to AGW theories as they are based almost entirely on mathematical proof from computer climate models.
Mathematics deals in proof, not theory.
If the theory relies on true, observational, unbiased, tested and uncooked data, then it becomes a viable theory.
All the AGW ‘Warmers’ have are unproven mathematical models.
Of the 2,500 “expert” scientists at the IPCC, what percent has “some dealing” with climate?
Kind of makes their opinions on other people’s papers moot as well wouldn’t you say?
I know you are pi$$ poor with percentages cosmo. Just pointing out how irrelevant your rants are.
soldevvb,
Science is about the science, not the scientists.
Science is not based on the number of scientists.
It would take only one person to refute the AGW theory that has been developed and supported by many thousands of scientists worldwide — including those listed in the ‘References‘ at the end of the chapters.
http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm
But you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
Here you go cosmos, here’s some videos for you to watch. Each scientist gives in detail in video presentation why AGW is a false science.
http://www.heartland.org/events/NewYork08/newyork2008-video.html
Got a request for you fleet, can you drum up one of your lists of cos and her freakish attacks on anyone who shows her faith to be false?
In particular, where she attacks scientists for not being climate scientists. Apparently this freak doesn’t care anymore.
Or is it cos, that you don’t care because the “scientists” that support your faith have now been called to task?
Regular,
Thank you for supporting my claim (with your Heartland link) that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
including those listed in the ‘References‘ at the end of the chapters.
Thank you for again proving you do not understand how the IPCC reports are generated.
including those listed in the ‘References‘ at the end of the chapters.
Thank you for again proving you do not understand how the IPCC reports are generated.
Science is about the science, not the scientists.
Science is not based on the number of scientists.
=================================================================
that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
================================================================
LMFAO !!!!
Game, set, match.
soldevvb posted May 6, 2009 at 11:25 am
Got a request for you fleet, can you drum up one of your lists of cos and her freakish attacks on anyone who shows her faith to be false?
———————
soldevvb,
That’s a good idea. . . point out that you AGW science deniers are unable to understand the obvious differences between AGW science, and opinions from your AGW deniers which are not supported by any science.
soldevvb,
You should read these reports, before you attack them.
http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm
LMFAO !!!
You should have stuck with giving the answer to my CO2 question. You are farther and farther down the rabit hole.
Attack, distract, misdirect.
And now, LIE LIE LIE.
Science is about the science, not the scientists.
Science is not based on the number of scientists.
=================================================================
that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
================================================================
I give you:
Willie Soon
Chief Science Advisor
Science and Public Policy Institute
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/personnel.html
=============================================================
And you have done nothing to support the opinions of the IPCC “experts” with less than 20% “having had some dealing with climate. “
Makes this statement by cosmo the prototypical hysterical alarmist that has run her course.
differences between AGW science, and opinions from your AGW deniers which are not supported by any science.
She is relegated to only attacking. She can no longer back up her religion.
She kind looks like a Chihuahua behind a screen door anymore. Down girl.
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 11:26 am | Permalink
Regular,
Thank you for supporting my claim (with your Heartland link) that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. .
===============================
So cosmos, you watched 20 plus hours of video in a few minutes and thus came up with your conclusion.
Let’s test a hypothesis cosmos, shall we?
On earth there are seasonal changes where the climate is affected by: (you’re the scientist, answer the question)
(A)Ground Hogs
(B)Carbon Dioxide
(C)Earth’s orbital relationship to the sun
Let me know how your answer supports your hypothesis cosmos.
soldevvb and Regular,
Thank you for again supporting my claim that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 11:53 am | Permalink
soldevvb and Regular,
Thank you for again supporting my claim that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person
=========================
I just gave you an URL to a whole list of scientists cosmos – speaking on video, with their credentials. You know, climate scientists…
Your statement is hypocritical and bogus.
Try and answer this question cosmos:
On earth there are seasonal changes where the climate is affected by: (you’re the scientist, answer the question)
(A)Ground Hogs
(B)Carbon Dioxide
(C)Earth’s orbital relationship to the sun
Let me know how your answer supports your hypothesis cosmos
Evidently no answer from cosmos, is that he believes co2 is responsible for seasonal changes.
Praise be! Hail Goracle, full of grace.
Regular,
They’re actually able to speak on the video? Wow, I’m impressed!
Maybe someday they’ll even figure out that they need some science to support their opinions? But probably not. . .
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 12:23 pm | Permalink
Regular,
They’re actually able to speak on the video? Wow, I’m impressed!
Maybe someday they’ll even figure out that they need some science to support their opinions? But probably not.
========================
Maybe you listen to the PhD’s speaking on the videos. There are astro-physicists, climate scientists and etc. addressing the issues of climate.
Or, you can be an ignorant, misinformed wallop as the rest of the ‘Warmers’ are.
PhD’s can actually speak! Wow! Who would’ve known?
They should’ve submited their “science” to a credible climate science journal.
Instead they gave paid speeches at a media event sponsored by a right-wing think(sic) tank.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 12:40 pm | Permalink
PhD’s can actually speak! Wow! Who would’ve known?
They should’ve submited their “science” to a credible climate science journal.
Instead they gave paid speeches at a media event sponsored by a right-wing think(sic) tank.
============================
Most of them have submitted papers that are peer reviewed on climate science.
Your myopic vision of real science is quite telling cosmos.
Regular posted May 6, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Most of them have submitted papers that are peer reviewed on climate science.
————————
. . . but on a different topic than the unsupported claims that they make in their video speech.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 12:49 pm | Permalink
Regular posted May 6, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Most of them have submitted papers that are peer reviewed on climate science.
————————
. . . but on a different topic than the unsupported claims that they make in their video speech.
=====================
Links?
Proof?
Affirmation?
The IPCC reports are the opinions of some 2,500 “expert” scientists.
The offer their opinions on cherry picked reports of other “expert” scientists.
Unfortunately, only ~20% of them “have had some dealing with climate.”
Whew! Corn ethanol, one more thing that we can soundly declare “the debate’s over” on…good thing we’ve got govt to make all our energy decisions for us….http://earth2tech.com/2009/05/05/corn-ethanol-crew-cries-foul-over-epa-emissions-ruling/
soldevvb posted May 6, 2009 at 1:01 pm
The IPCC reports are the opinions of some 2,500 “expert” scientists.
———————————-
Actually, the IPCC reports are a compilation of the published, peer-reviewed science.
A few of the many “Reference>/b>” papers listed in the IPCC reports.
——————
Zhang, J., S.A. Christopher, L.A. Remer, and Y.J. Kaufman, 2005:
Shortwave aerosol radiative forcing over cloud-free oceans from Terra:
2. Seasonal and global distributions. J. Geophys. Res., 110, D10S24,
doi:10.1029/2004JD005009.
Zhang, J.P., Z. Yang, D.J. Wang, and X.B. Zhang, 2002: Climate change
and causes in the Yuanmou dry-hot valley of Yunnan China. J. Arid
Environ., 51, 153–162.
Zhao, M., A. Pitman, and T.N. Chase, 2001: The impacts of land cover
change on the atmospheric circulation. Clim. Dyn., 17, 467–477.
Zhao, T.X.P., I. Laszlo, P. Minnis, and L. Remer, 2005: Comparison and
analysis of two aerosol retrievals over the ocean in the terra/clouds
and the earth’s radiant energy system: moderate resolution imaging
spectroradiometer single scanner footprint data: 1. Global evaluation. J.
Geophys. Res., 110, D21208, doi:10.1029/2005JD005851.
Zhou, L.M., et al., 2001: Variations in northern vegetation activity inferred
from satellite data of vegetation index during 1981 to 1999. J. Geophys.
Res., 106(D17), 20069–20083.
Zhou, M., et al., 2005: A normalized description of the direct effect of
key aerosol types on solar radiation as estimated from aerosol robotic
network aerosols and moderate resolution imaging spectroradiometer
albedos. J. Geophys. Res., 110, D19202, doi:10.1029/2005JD005909.
‘U.S. Chamber Of Commerce Takes Heat From Own Membership On Climate Legislation Stance‘
http://www.desmogblog.com/us-chamber-commerce-takes-heat-own-membership-climate-legislation-stance
Lots of Zhang and Zhao.
Looks pretty cherry picked to me.
Compilation? Yeah. You can buy that if you want. An opinion is an opinion.
And you people have to have Joe Public clean up the lies from the drafts.
That makes them poor opinions, or just outright lies.
soldevvb posted May 6, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Lots of Zhang and Zhao.
——————
I didn’t want to copy/paste all approximately 700 published, peer-reviewed papers from that one chapter, and all the other papers, from all the other chapters.
Yeah, would have been a lot of the same authors again, being cherry picked and all.
Opinions on cherry picked reports by “experts”, but only ~20% “have had some dealing with climate.”
I can see why you are afraid to post any “facts” cosmo. I see your source.
I’ve got a list of references refuting AGW as well.
AKASOFU, S-I. 2008. Is the Earth still recovering from the Little Ice Age? A possible cause of global warming.Draft paper, revised January 2008.
ALLEN et al.2008. Warming maximum in the tropical upper troposphere deduced from thermal winds. Nature Geoscience, 25 May. DOI: 10.1038/ngeo208.
BODE, H.W. 1945. Network analysis and feedback amplifier design. 551pp. Van Nostrand, New York.
BONY, S., R. Colman, V. Kattsov, R. P. Allan, C. S. Bretherton, J.-L. Dufresne, A. Hall, S. Hallegatte, M. M. Holland, W. Ingram, D. A. Randall, B. J. Soden, G. Tselioudis and M. J. Webb. 2006.How well do we understand and evaluate climate change feedback processes? Journal of Climate 19: 3445-3482.
COLMAN, R.A. 2003.A comparison of climate feedbacks in general-circulation models.Clim. Dyn.20: 865–873.
CESS, R.D., M.-H Zhang, G. L. Potter, H. W. Barker, R. A. Colman, R.A. Dazlich, A.D. Del Genio, M Esch, J. R. Fraser, V. Galin, W. L. Gates, J. J. Hack, W. J. Ingram, J. T. Kiehl, A. A. Lacis, H. Le Treut, Z-X Li, X. Z. Liang, J.-F, Mahfouf, B. J. McAvaney, K. P. Meleshko, J.-J. Morcrette, D. A. Randall, E. Roeckner, J.-F. Royer, A. P. Sokolov, P. V. Sporyshev, K. E. Taylor, W.-C. Wang and R. T. Wetherald. 1993.Uncertainties in CO2radiative forcing in atmospheric general circulation models. Science262: 1252-1255.
CHYLEK, P., and Lohmann, U. 2008.Aerosol radiative forcing and climate sensitivity deduced from the Last Glacial Maximum to Holocene transition.Geophys. Res. Lett.35:L04804, doi: 10.1029/2007GL032759.
DICKINSON, R.E. 1982. In Carbon Dioxide Review, ed. W.C. Clark, Clarendon, New York, NY, USA, pp. 101-133.
http://www.aps.org/units/fps/newsletters/200807/monckton.cfm
Oh, sorry, this is what the paper is about:
WASHINGTON (7-15-08) – Mathematical proof that there is no “climate crisis” appears today in a major, peer-reviewed paper in Physics and Society, a learned journal of the 4,600-strong American Physical Society, SPPI reports.
soldevvb,
I realize that the following is very, very complicated, but if you really concentrate, and really strain your thinking ability, you might be able to understand it.
A “newsletter” is not a journal.
Monckton’s claims were printed in a “newsletter”, and only got an editorial review, not a scientific peer-review.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 11:53 am | Permalink
soldevvb and Regular,
Thank you for again supporting my claim that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
_____________
cosMo and the AGW alarmists think they can say this because when one does come along (Dr. Miskolczi, atmospheric physicist) they suppress the study. The IPCC reviewers have resigned as a result. Dr. Miskolczi resigned from NASA because his paper was suppressed(probably by Hansen).
cosMo then claims:“Dr. Miskolcz himself seems to have admitted that his theory was wrong.” because he says, “I said that he admitted that he was not a climatologist, and that he seemed to have stopped trying to defend his theory.”
After Dr. Miskolczi paper was published by his own country of Hungary, cosMo then claims it to be “obscure”.
When asked to provide a link to refute Dr. Miskolczi’s study, cosMo gives a link from a blogger with the name of a fictional character. To deflect from this cosMo then says; “You’re welcome to prove me wrong, and show that he is still defending his theory”, which is asking me to prove a negative.
This is how the AGW alarmits push their political agenda. Suppress anyone who don’t fall lock step with their pre-drawn conclusions and then falsely claim he “himself seems to have admitted that his theory was wrong”.
Here’s another peer reviewed paper that refutes the AGW theory.
http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf
Watch cosMo attack the personal character of the author.
Oh, sorry, this is what the paper is about:
WASHINGTON (7-15-08) – Mathematical proof that there is no “climate crisis” appears today in a major, peer-reviewed paper in Physics and Society, a learned journal of the 4,600-strong American Physical Society, SPPI reports.
_______________________________________________
WHAT??!!?? Here is what I have to say to that!
Perhaps donndublin does not understand
but if you really concentrate, and really strain your thinking ability, you might be able to understand it.
Why is soldevvb so “afeared” to admit that she does not understand Earth’s carbon cycle?
Why is soldevvb so “afeared” to admit that she does not understand climate science?
Poor Regular does not understand ‘disclaimers’.
And soldevvb, you really should try to understand the obvious difference between the % of the total “greenhouse” effect, and the % of CO2 emissions.
No soldevvb. . . I’m tired of people like you who cannot understand the basics of climate science.
Your being unable to understand climate science definitely does not prove that climate science is wrong.
soldevvb, I’ve got the AGW science that you cannot refute — and that you’ve also proven that you cannot understand.
Which part of “peer reviewed paper” confused you cos?
Try real hard, I knooooow you can do it…
Scientists threatened for ‘climate denial’
Scientists who questioned mankind’s impact on climate change have received death threats and claim to have been shunned by the scientific community.
They say the debate on global warming has been “hijacked” by a powerful alliance of politicians, scientists and environmentalists who have stifled all questioning about the true environmental impact of carbon dioxide emissions.
donndublin,
Since you still don’t seem to have anything to suggest that Dr. Miskolczi is actively pushing his theory, why shouldn’t we assume that I was correct?
And donndublin. . . you should learn the difference between not being able to withstand peer-review, and “suppression”.
soldevvb posted May 6, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Which part of “peer reviewed paper” confused you cos?
Try real hard, I knooooow you can do it…
——————
The word newsletters in the link, in your post.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/05/wind-plant-is-great-start/comment-page-2/#comment-568203
The editor of that newsletter said that only an editorial review was done on Monckton’s article, not a scientific peer-review.
It’s an assertion repeated by politicians and climate campaigners the world over: “2,500 scientists of the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) agree that humans are causing a climate crisis.”
But it’s not true. And, for the first time ever, the public can now see the extent to which they have been misled. As lies go, it’s a whopper. Here’s the real situation.
Like the three IPCC “assessment reports” before it, the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) released during 2007 (upon which the UN climate conference in Bali was based) includes the reports of the IPCC’s three working groups.
Working Group I (WG I) is assigned to report on the extent and possible causes of past climate change as well as future “projections”. Its report is titled “The Physical Science Basis”.
The reports from working groups II and III are titled “Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability” and “Mitigation of Climate Change” respectively, and since these are based on the results of WG I, it is crucially important that the WG I report stands up to close scrutiny.
There is, of course serious debate among scientists about the actual technical content of the roughly 1,000-page WG I report, especially its politically motivated Summary for Policymakers which is often the only part read by politicians and non-scientists. The technical content can be difficult for non-scientists to follow and so most people simply assume that if large numbers of scientists agree, they must be right.
Wrong.
For the first time ever, the UN has released on the Web the comments of reviewers who assessed the drafts of the WG I report and the IPCC editors’ responses. This release was almost certainly a result of intense pressure applied by “hockey-stick” co-debunker Steve McIntyre of Toronto and his allies. Unlike the other IPCC working groups, WG I is based in the US and McIntyre had used the robust Freedom of Information legislation to request certain details when the full comments were released.
An examination of reviewers’ comments on the last draft of the WG I report before final report assembly (i.e. the “Second Order Revision” or SOR) completely debunks the illusion of hundreds of experts diligently poring over all the chapters of the report and providing extensive feedback to the editing teams. Here’s the reality.
A total of 308 reviewers commented on the SOR, but only 32 reviewers commented on more than three chapters and only five reviewers commented on all 11 chapters of the report. Only about half the reviewers commented on more than one chapter. It is logical that reviewers would generally limit their comments to their areas of expertise but it’s a far cry from the idea of thousands of scientists agreeing to anything.
Compounding this is the fact that IPCC editors could, and often did, ignore reviewers’ comments. Some editor responses were banal and others showed inconsistencies with other comments. Reviewers had to justify their requested changes but the responding editors appear to have been under no such obligation. Reviewers were sometimes flatly told they were wrong but no reasons or reliable references were provided.
In other cases reviewers tried to dilute the certainty being expressed and they often provided supporting evidence, but their comments were often flatly rejected. Some comments were rejected on the basis of a lack of space – an incredible assertion in such an important document.
The attitude of the editors seemed to be that simple corrections were accepted, requests for improved clarity tolerated but the assertions and interpretations that appear in the text were to be defended against any challenge.
An example of rampant misrepresentation of IPCC reports is the frequent assertion that “hundreds of IPCC scientists” are known to support the following statement, arguably the most important of the WG I report, namely “Greenhouse gas forcing has very likely caused most of the observed global warming over the last 50 years”.
In total, only 62 scientists reviewed the chapter in which this statement appears, the critical chapter 9, “Understanding and Attributing Climate Change”. Of the comments received from the 62 reviewers of this critical chapter, almost 60 per cent of them were rejected by IPCC editors. And of the 62 expert reviewers of this chapter, 55 had serious vested interest, leaving only seven expert reviewers who appear impartial.
Two of these seven were contacted by NRSP for the purposes of this article – Dr Vincent Gray of New Zealand and Dr Ross McKitrick of the University of Guelph, Canada. Concerning the “Greenhouse gas forcing …” statement above, Professor McKitrick explained “A categorical summary statement like this is not supported by the evidence in the IPCC WG I report. Evidence shown in the report suggests that other factors play a major role in climate change, and the specific effects expected from greenhouse gases have not been observed.”
Dr Gray labeled the WG I statement as “Typical IPCC doubletalk” asserting “The text of the IPCC report shows that this is decided by a guess from persons with a conflict of interest, not from a tested model”.
Determining the level of support expressed by reviewers’ comments is subjective but a slightly generous evaluation indicates that just five reviewers endorsed the crucial ninth chapter. Four had vested interests and the other made only a single comment for the entire 11-chapter report. The claim that 2,500 independent scientist reviewers agreed with this, the most important statement of the UN climate reports released this year, or any other statement in the UN climate reports, is nonsense.
“The IPCC owe it to the world to explain who among their expert reviewers actually agree with their conclusions and who don’t,” says Natural Resources Stewardship Project Chair climatologist Dr Timothy Ball. “Otherwise, their credibility, and the public’s trust of science in general, will be even further eroded.”
That the IPCC have let this deception continue for so long is a disgrace. Secretary General Ban Kai-Moon must instruct the UN climate body to either completely revise their operating procedures, welcoming dissenting input from scientist reviewers and indicating if reviewers have vested interests, or close the agency down completely.
Until then, their conclusions, and any reached at the Bali conference based on IPCC conclusions, should be ignored entirely as politically skewed and dishonest.
http://climate-reality.nexo.com/0608
donndublin posted May 6, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Watch cosMo attack the personal character of the author.
—————-
Why should I? The author correctly states that his paper is only offering an “initial attempt”.
donndublin,
Is Tim Ball still running around denying AGW science?
http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Tim_Ball#Lawsuit
“. . . In the face of this and an even-more strident Statement of Defence by the Calgary Herald (“The Plantiff (Dr. Ball) is viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist.”), Ball withdrew the suit in June 2007.[9]“
Cosmos, AGW is a scam!
Post something relevant, Please.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 3:36 pm | Permalink
donndublin,
Since you still don’t seem to have anything to suggest that Dr. Miskolczi is actively pushing his theory, why shouldn’t we assume that I was correct?
And donndublin. . . you should learn the difference between not being able to withstand peer-review, and “suppression”.
_______________
cosMo, Since you don’t (not seem to) have anything to show (not suggest)that Dr. Miskolczi’s peer reviewed paper as been refuted (except a fictional character) we can logically conclude(not assume) that you are wrong.
Your “seem to”, “suggest” and “assume” are very very weak arguments.
and cosMo….. . . you should learn that when something is peer-reviewed and not refuted, and then it is not published, it is suppressed.
Cosmos, AGW is a scam!
__________________________________
WHAT??!!?? Here is what I have to say about that!
AGW science deniers believe that their opinion is science.
donndublin,Is Tim Ball still running around denying AGW science?
soldevvb,That’s a good idea. . . point out that you AGW science deniers are unable to understand the obvious differences between AGW science, and opinions from your AGW deniers which are not supported by any science.
soldevvb and Regular,Thank you for again supporting my claim that you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
But you AGW science deniers cannot even find that one person. . .
More about one of the leaders of the AGW science deniers.
Enjoy celebrating your denial of climate science American_Way.
No, you will have all of the people (like Sunflower, and AGW deniers)
donndublin,
You should read Dr. Schwartz’s revised analysis, instead of just his 2007 “initial attempt” paper.
http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/schwartz.html
donndublin posted May 6, 2009 at 4:06 pm
cosMo, Since you don’t (not seem to) have anything to show (not suggest)that Dr. Miskolczi’s peer reviewed paper as been refuted (except a fictional character) we can logically conclude(not assume) that you are wrong.
———————-
Actually, I also gave you another source.
But whatever. Passive obscurity will not refute the globally held AGW scientific consensus.
donndublin,
Is Tim Ball still running around denying AGW science?
• cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 4:02 pm | Permalink
donndublin,
Is Tim Ball still running around denying AGW science?
http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Tim_Ball#Lawsuit
“. . . In the face of this and an even-more strident Statement of Defence by the Calgary Herald (“The Plantiff (Dr. Ball) is viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist.”), Ball withdrew the suit in June 2007.[9]“
_____________
cosMo again tries to obfuscate.
The law suit was prior to and not related to the link I posted above. It was against a news paper and Dr. Dan Johnson, a professor of environmental science, “over the publication of a letter to the editor published in April 2006 by Johnson responding to an opinion column by Ball. In his statement of claim, Ball objects to Johnson’s letter in which statements about his academic record were disputed.”
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 4:24 pm | Permalink
donndublin posted May 6, 2009 at 4:06 pm
cosMo, Since you don’t (not seem to) have anything to show (not suggest)that Dr. Miskolczi’s peer reviewed paper as been refuted (except a fictional character) we can logically conclude(not assume) that you are wrong.
———————-
Actually, I also gave you another source.
______________
The other source for what, “he admitted that he was not a climatologist”"?
Obfuscating is no way to win a debate.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 4:25 pm | Permalink
donndublin,
Is Tim Ball still running around denying AGW science?
______________
I believe Dr. Ball knows more about climate science than you do.
Dr. Tim Ball has a B.A. from the University of Winnipeg, an M.A. from the University of Manitoba in 1970 in Geography, and a Ph.D. in Climatology from the University of London, England in 1983, writing a thesis analyzing historical weather records from Canada’s north. Ball taught at the University of Winnipeg from 1973 to 1996, starting as a Sessional Lecturer and retiring as a Professor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Ball
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 4:24 pm | Permalink
donndublin posted May 6, 2009 at 4:06 pm
cosMo, Since you don’t (not seem to) have anything to show (not suggest)that Dr. Miskolczi’s peer reviewed paper as been refuted (except a fictional character) we can logically conclude(not assume) that you are wrong.
———————-
But whatever. Passive obscurity will not refute the globally held AGW scientific consensus.
___________
___________
The IPCC has a consensus of five.
(see 3:51 post, 4th paragraph from the bottom)
“Determining the level of support expressed by reviewers’ comments is subjective but a slightly generous evaluation indicates that just FIVE reviewers endorsed the crucial ninth chapter. Four had vested interests and the other made only a single comment for the entire 11-chapter report.”
donndublin posted May 6, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Obfuscating is no way to win a debate.
——————-
Passive obscurity will not refute the globally held AGW scientific consensus.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus.htm
A politically motivated “AGW scientific consensus” does not trump the facts.
http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Worldwide+Global+Cooling/article10866.htm
“Over the past year, anecdotal evidence for a cooling planet has exploded. China has its coldest winter in 100 years. Baghdad sees its first snow in all recorded history. North America has the most snowcover in 50 years, with places like Wisconsin the highest since record-keeping began. Record levels of Antarctic sea ice, record cold in Minnesota, Texas, Florida, Mexico, Australia, Iran, Greece, South Africa, Greenland, Argentina, Chile — the list goes on and on.
No more than anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But now, that evidence has been supplanted by hard scientific fact. All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA’s GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.”
cosMo, are you getting dizzy going around in circles with your obfuscating?
I’m outa here.
Posting an old “anecdotal evidence” opinion column by someone at DailyTech here on the WE blog will not refute the globally held AGW scientific consensus.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 5:18 pm | Permalink
Posting an old “anecdotal evidence” opinion column by someone at DailyTech here on the WE blog will not refute the globally held AGW scientific consensus.
__________________
Not as old as your “AGW (political)scientific consensus”.
Now there is even more anecdotal evidence than when it was posted and facts are facts.
donndublin posted May 6, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Now there is even more anecdotal evidence than when it was posted and facts are facts.
———————
Yes, facts are facts. . . and an opinion from DailyTech is not science.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/Is-the-climate-warming-or-cooling.html
cosmos_originally
Posted May 6, 2009 at 8:23 pm | Permalink
———————
Yes, facts are facts. . . and an opinion from DailyTech is not science.
Neither is realclimate or desmogblog, both are opinion blogs not science, but yet you constantly quote them.
http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/csi/images/GRL2009_ClimateWarming.pdf
Regular,
E. G. Beck’s CO2 claims were not science.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/10/more_nonsense_about_co2.php
donndublin posted May 6, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Here’s another peer reviewed paper that refutes the AGW theory.
—————–
dondublin,
Did you personally come to that conclusion about Dr. Schwartz’s 2007 “initial attempt” paper? Or did you make that claim based on what you read somewhere?
http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/schwartz.html
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