As appalling as the anti-gay protests of Topeka’s Westboro Baptist Church are, it was startling to see Fred Phelps and daughter Shirley Phelps-Roper alongside Russian gangsters and Muslim extremists on a list of 16 people newly barred from entering Britain for allegedly fostering extremism or hatred. Another surprise was San Francisco talk-radio host Michael Savage (whose show airs locally weeknights on KNSS Radio, 1330 AM). The official explanation for the inclusion of Phelps and his daughter: “Considered to be engaging in unacceptable behaviour by fostering hatred which might lead to inter-community violence in the United Kingdom.” Unfortunately, being banned in Britain may only embolden the Phelps clan.
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50 Comments
That Phelps Klan has some snappy sunglasses!
You can’t have hate crimes without hate speech.
Civilized countries like England seem to understand that.
It’s a small step between “God hates you” and “God wants you to die.”
The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Jewish Holocaust taught us that . . .
Ignore them.
The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Jewish Holocaust taught us that . . .
=======================
I am sure these kooks don’t have that much pull, Capn’A.
No ‘bubbles and squeak’ for the Phelps then.
Here is what I would tell the Phelps Klan:
“_________________________”
Silence about and to them and lack of media coverage of the activies is the surest way to make them go away.
Hell,
The Phelps have turned to inbreeding just to keep people involved in their ideology.
And CapnAmerica reveals the true motivations to the liberals push for hate crimes legislation.
They want to go after hate speech.
Nevermind the first amendment.
If you say something the liberals don’t like or agree with it will be hate speech and thus a crime.
You need look no further than what happens here when you disagree with homosexual marriage.
Nothing I have ever posted about homosexuals is hateful, but because I disagree with their lifestyle, think it is a sin, don’t support homosexual marriage, and think it is a choice I am constantly said to be “hating” them.
And I am only too sure the liberals like CapnAmerica would all too gladly love to see such speech labeled as hateful and banned.
First amendment be damned.
Quick Briton is violating free speech call Todd!
No first amendment in England, so they can do what they want.
Look – the Phelps clan are offensive, and that’s being kind. But even more offensive is using law to shut them up. England can do that, though I find it offensive to do so. The US cannot.
Capn – I’m surprised at you. Or perhaps not. I’ve always known that with the loony left, when it comes down to it, tolerance really means tolerance only for speech the ideologues agree with. It’s easy to defend shutting Phelps up, no civilized person would defend him. But once you go down that road, it never ends.
Where will you draw that speech line, Capn? Who gets to decide when the speech is to be banned? You? Me? No – ultimately, the only cure for offensive speech is more speech.
Or in this case, ignore them.
Being gay is a Choice? When I walk into to a bar I can choose to ask the Red head, the Blond or the Brunette girl out. The fat guy playing pool, the Bouncer, the guy sitting alone at bar with his beer, they not even in the equation. That they would be included in Nathans equation as a choice, is very telling.
“GMC70
Posted May 5, 2009 at 1:31 pm | Permalink
…Who gets to decide when the speech is to be banned? You? Me?”
No, it is me that gets to decide.
No, it is me that gets to decide.
====================================
FU jackass, I am the Decider!
Personally I find it offensive that my tax dollars fund the Phelps activities, and GMC a ball bat would also be an effective deterrent to the Phelps’s and short of killing them you would have a hard time finding a jury that would convict anyone of harming them.
“ANTI
Posted May 5, 2009 at 1:50 pm | Permalink
No, it is me that gets to decide.
====================================
FU jackass, I am the Decider!”
Oh, is it Tuesday? I was a day early. Sorry.
Oh, is it Tuesday? I was a day early. Sorry.
======================================
It’s OK, being a Decider can be confusing.
Tom – perhaps I wasn’t paying attention, but – what tax dollars fund the Phelps? I know of none.
“Quick Briton is violating free speech call Todd!”
—————————————————-
My goodness, writer. Your spelling gets more and more egregious with every post. “Britain” is the country (it’s spelled in the TITLE!). A “Britton” is a person from Britain. Either way you’re wrong because you spelled “Britton” wrong too. Wow…
The Phelp’s speech is not banned. But Britain is just saying, “You are not welcome in our home.” The USA also turns people away, you know…
DavidB –
Fair enough, and an important distinction. Point taken, and well made.
It’s a violation of free speech to shout “Fire!” in a crowded movie house. (You can, however, shout “Movie!” in a crowded fire house.)
I interviewed Phred Felps several times back in my talk radio days. The more he talked, the more he revealed just how close his particular theology coincided with mainstream “Christian” fundamentalism. The listeners who called in after Phred’s appearances admitted as much or attacked me for giving him a forum which showed up some of the most vile aspects of his particular biblical “literalism.”
Eh.
The Brits have a pretty high tolerance of silliness. Their parliamentary elections frequently include candidates from such outfits as the Official Monster Raving Loony Party, the Raving Loony Green Giant Party, the Rock ‘n’ Roll Loony Party, the Scottish Jacobite Party, the Church of the Militant Elvis Party….
So it’s pretty significant they’ve opted to make their island a Phred Felps Phree state.
Monkeyhawk,
Just curious…Why would you even want to talk to that Kook?
GMC writes, “I’ve always known that with the loony left, when it comes down to it, tolerance really means tolerance only for speech the ideologues agree with.”
Well, then, you’re not paying attention, GMC.
Most folks would consider the ACLU part of the loonie left, I’m a card-carrying member, and they’ve defended neo-Nazis.
I didn’t recommend laws against free speech. What I said was that “hate speech leads to hate crime,” which rather a banality in its obviousness.
There are other ways to “not tolerate” hate speech besides laws.
Also, I wonder where was your free speech outrage at Bush’s literally corralling protestors MILES from his public venues and arresting all the rest?
BTW, here’s another loony leftist I much admire:
Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.
~Noam Chomsky
“GMC70″ admits –
“…I wasn’t paying attention, but – what tax dollars fund the Phelps?”
As a “church” the entire Westboro Baptist Church compound is exempt from property taxes. The “clergy” gets tax breaks. Which means Topeka, Shawnee County, Kansas, and United States taxpayers make up the difference.
In fact, that’s the basis for Phred Felps establishing the Westboro Baptist Church in the first place. The IRS came after him in the 70s with demands his little tax dodge represent a theology. Well, the “God Hates F@gs” thing sure qualified.
The Westboro Baptist Church has all the tax protections of any church. Which means the rest of us have to make up the difference.
But you, “GMC70″ weren’t paying attention. Too busy posting to WE Blog on the taxpayers’ dime, I guess.
“ANTI” asks –
“Why would you even want to talk to that Kook?”
Fair question.
Turns out Phred Felps and I go way back.
We were side-by-side in a small airplane in danger of crashing (there was foam on the runway and fire trucks waiting for us when we landed) back in 1976.
That was way before his “God Hates F@gs” thing started. And Phred seems to like talking with me. It was good talk radio. He’s not a stupid man, merely delusional.
I suspect every time we talked on the radio Phred thinks he won the debate. I mostly let him talk. The calls that came in after Felps were eye-opening… people who were appalled I gave him a forum, twice-borns who tried to twist Phred’s theology into something rational, “Christians” who said, “Like it or not, what Phred preaches is pretty much fundamentalism…taken a bit too far.”
“A bit?!”
Okay. I confess. I interviewed him because he was good talk radio. And for the same reason people slow down to gawk at a horrific accident on the freeway.
Turns out Phred Felps and I go way back.-Monkeyhawk
===========================
I’m trying hard to let that one go…
Wow, MH.
I wonder if I could incorporate my family into a “church” and carry signs reading “God HATES Cons!”
My house could become my “tabernacle,” my car the official “church business” car, and my dog a tax write off for “security.”
This is brilliant!
Okay. I confess. I interviewed him because he was good talk radio. And for the same reason people slow down to gawk at a horrific accident on the freeway.
========================
That is what I had thought and I do understand it.
I just wanted to be sure.
CapnAmerica
Posted May 5, 2009 at 2:54 pm | Permalink
Wow, MH.
I wonder if I could incorporate my family into a “church” and carry signs reading “God HATES Cons!”
====================
This is Hate Speech.
Brian,
Due to DU of A (De-Cider’s Union of America) I need to take my mandated 2-1/2 hour break. You Brian, are now the De-Cider.
Good Luck and God speed, Brian, God speed!
Britain is banning Christianity?!?!? This must have the conservative Christians in an uproar. How do they expect Christian leaders, and representatives of God to preach the love of Christ to gays if Phelps isn’t allowed to go there and tell them they are going to burn in hell?
C’mon fundies, get together and defend your spokesman on gay issues.
DavidB
Posted May 5, 2009 at 2:18 pm | Permalink
The Phelp’s speech is not banned. But Britain is just saying, “You are not welcome in our home.” The USA also turns people away, you know…
—————————————————-
Precisely the point. There are plenty of foreign voices (at the UN building in particular) I’d prefer were kept out and shut up.
“CapnAmerica” posits –
“I wonder if I could incorporate my family into a “church” and carry signs reading “God HATES Cons!”
My house could become my “tabernacle,” my car the official “church business” car, and my dog a tax write off for “security.”
This is brilliant!”
Yeah, you could… if you were as brilliant as Phred Felps and his kids.
They may be crazy but they are not dumb.
Most of the kids run the Felps Law firm in Topeka and are recognized as crackerjack lawyers.
There is a school of opinion Phred was disbarred simply because he out-lawyered people back in the 60s when he was a leading voice for civil rights.
I’ve never been quite sure Phred is as crazy as he talks, or talks crazy as he does to keep up the tax scam he created with the Westboro Baptist Church.
I think (if possible) Shirley is crazier; doesn’t get Phred’s joke against authority and really believes all the crap she says. She’s one of the kids who didn’t make it to law school, but she compensates by pushing the “theology.”
Phred Felps is this generation’s Doc Brinkley (the goat gland doctor whose radio station eventually became KFDI).
Wow. the Queen and the Church of England must be having a fit.. banning Christianity?? Really??? Wow.
Radio show insulter Savage (also banned) was being interviewed on NPR today. He insulted a caller twice and then hung up on the interview.
I once counter-protested Phelps walking WITH his family, carrying signage stating Phelps was a bigot. The family members spoke the most vile and insulting things to me… Amen!
Nathan,
“And I am only too sure the liberals like CapnAmerica would all too gladly love to see such speech labeled as hateful and banned.”
Banned, Certainly not; but that doesn’t mean that your brand of hate (and it is that) should go unopposed. I don’t want it banned, I want it to become inconceivable to the next generation of Americans that anybody could feel such animus.
Phelps and his people are NO different from many, perhaps most Christians.
They are just more honest about it.
His clan tried to demonstrate in front of my kids school.
A gay pride rally broke out!
It is unfortunate that Britain shields itself from this ugly but very real and larger than admitted side of America.
C’mon fundies, get together and defend your spokesman on gay issues.
——–
I can’t defend that Democrat’s hateful ideas.
You know, I think perhaps they need to change the law that says you cannot yell fire in a movie theatre- what about a crowded dance club? Graduation ceremony? Stadium? Wouldn’t the effect be the same? Trampled to death. Personally I’d be happier if they WOULD yell fire. If there were a fire.
HOWEVER, you can still be charged for inciting a riot if not. I mean, trampled to death running for the door could be considered a riot, couldn’t it?
If we’re trying to stop people from trampling each other to death, perhaps we need a law against after Thanksgiving sales.
As they said in Cincinnati years ago –
“I’d run over you to see the Who.”
MH, your right about the Westboro church being Tax Exempt but when I refer to the Phelps being funded by our tax dollars, It is the fact that many of the Phelps’s actually are on the state payroll the, Prison system I believe that I find most annoying
Margie Phelps Department of Corrections Public Service Executive III $65,972.00
Fred Phelps Jr Department of Corrections Attorney A $55,239.00
Ernest Phelps Corrections Dept-Corrtnl Indus Manufacturing Manager $57,294.00
“TomPaine” –
As I said, they’re crazy but not dumb.
If I were in prison and needed a crafty lawyer I’d like to have one of the Phred Felps kids on my side.
In fact, when I was arrested a couple of years ago for counter-protesting against the Felps clan’s demonstration against an Iraq War veteran’s funeral, I seriously considered hiring someone from the Felps Law Firm to defend me.
Alas, the county dropped the charges against me.
MH, Like I said way above, short of killing one of the Phelps’s. I don’t think you could get a jury to convict you of anything against the Phelps clan, no DA would want to take a case on their behalf it would be a PR nightmare and turn quickly into a media circus
SIGH!!!
What happened to the lib mantra of the 60’s that went something like;
I may not agree with what you say, BUT I will fight to the end your RIGHT to say it.
At least the libs had that going for them.
Actually Outlander, the Phelps family is pretty evenly split between D’s and R’s Fred Sr and Shirley are registered Dems, Fred JR and Margie are Repubs.
I like the Monkeyhawk approach: Stick a microphone in front of their face and just sit back and let them ramble on.
I believe it was U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis who said it best; “Sunlight is the best disinfectant”
nathaniel, there is a world of difference between saying you against gay marriage for whatever reason and what the Phelps clan does. The 1st amendment is not in jeopardy in any way. You can still say and believe you hateful thoughts in the US of A but the law phohibits you from committing a crime against an individual simple because of what you think of him/her. Surely you can see the difference.