Was James Dobson of Focus on the Family pushed to surrender in the culture wars by the confirmation of pro-choice Kathleen Sebelius as secretary of Health and Human Services?
“We tried with Kathleen Sebelius and sent thousands of phone calls and e-mails to the Senate, and they didn’t pay any attention to it because they don’t have to,” he told his radio audience last week. “And so what you can do is pray, pray for this great nation. . . . As I see it, there is no other answer. There’s no other answer, short term.”
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- minutelady on Open thread 11/23
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- minutelady on Open thread 11/23
- XXX on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Let immigrants run
- Phantom on Let immigrants run
- XXX on Open thread 11/23
- Phantom on Too many exemptions
- Phantom on Too many exemptions
- situveux1 on Too many exemptions
122 Comments
Oh yeah, that culture war. I forgot I was supposed to be fighting one. I guess the fundies started some war, nobody showed up, and they declared that they lost. I suppose this was the yawn heard around the world.
Yet another religious nutcase comes out of the woodwork. I would tell Dobson, Pat Robertson and John Hagee that they are among the BIGGEST reasons as to why the Republican Party is in the shape it is in. This is the United States. We are not a theocracy and many of us do not like having somebody else’s religious views crammed down our throats at the point of a gun. If you want that, places like Saudi Arabia await. Over here women are not going to be forced to have babies they neither want to have or can support. Abortion is a fundamental right and will remain so. And the way these folks went down to Florida and injected themselves in the Teri Shavio case was shameful. Even more shameful was that the Republican Party caters to them.
The Twice-Born have problems when they try to convince voters the rights of a blob of cells smaller than a pin head have the same rights as a walking talking pregnant human being.
Even when they cite Jesus of Nazareth’s passionate pronouncements on the issue.
Oh, wait….
So the Twice-Born have moved on to gender-neutral marriage. And can’t seem to address the subject without sharing their kinky fantasies about marrying dogs, goats, and turtles. Tapping a foot under the next bathroom stall all the while.
They’re still speaking in tongues only this time, their gibberish sounds a bit like English.
In today’s letter to the editor section there’s a fundy who says it’s his Constitutional right, and part of his religious heritage to murder gays. No civilized society should tolerate fundies who want to move us back to the cultural squalor of a Taliban tribal system of governance.
“Maggotpunk” –
I must assume the aforementioned fundie figures it’s his right to shoot up the customers at Red Lobster.
Dobson’s methods were for another time. Obama was going to have a pro-abortion HHS Secretary, Sebelius or not.
What is working, as evidenced by the recent polling showing Americans are now majority pro-life, is changing of hearts and minds. Slowly we are winning the battle and more and more folks realize that the human fetus is innocent life that should have rights and protections.
I think Monkeyhawk and Maggotpunk are breakfasting together this morning.
Be sure guys, to take a mint for the bigot breath.
“What is working, as evidenced by the recent polling showing Americans are now majority pro-life, is changing of hearts and minds. Slowly we are winning the battle and more and more folks realize that the human fetus is innocent life that should have rights and protections.”–outlander
That’s true outlander, folks are realizing that killing defenseless innocent new life is just that, and a selfish act.
It isn’t simply a religious matter either, even though no recognized religions condone killing like that, it is also a matter of protecting life in the secular sense as well.
Our country is founded on the guarantee of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, of which the First is Life and without that the others have no meaning.
Monkey’s description of that life as no more important than “blob of cells smaller than a pin head”, is a lie and he know it. It’s relevance is that it IS living human life, and can’t be anything else. He makes himself no more valuable that what he proclaims that life to be as well.
““And so what you can do is pray, pray for this great nation. . . . As I see it, there is no other answer. There’s no other answer, short term.”
Yeah do that. LOTS of that. Just do it in the closet and leave the rest of us alone.
““What is working, as evidenced by the recent polling showing Americans are now majority pro-life,”
Allow me to pi$$ on your campfire.
51% was your poll’s margin for “pro life”.
Not ONLY is that well within the margin of error, but by and large, those people are like you outlander and are not really pro life at all.
You will continue to try and outlaw abortion which even if remotely possible would not stop it.
You will continue to try and outlaw abortion which even if remotely possible would not stop it.
————
Let me correct your knee jerk lie there BJ.
The goal is to reduce the number of abortions. Every decision made against abortion and for life is a saved human life. What a return on investment.
“outlander” –
You’re lying.
Your goal is to outlaw abortion.
Which means you advocate illegal abortions.
outlander
Posted May 17, 2009 at 8:48 am | Permalink
Every decision made against abortion and for life is a saved human life. What a return on investment.
—
What if the mother dies during delivery? How does your life calculus net out in that case? (a wash?)
Or do you support abortion if the pregnancy itself places the mother’s life in danger?
I’m well familiar with what your goal is.
QUALITY of life for the born is not part of your menu. You just want to get the fetus beyond the birth canal. Then you wash your hands and do the quick hand off to “god”.
Well Mr. Outlander, “God” aint there for three AM feedings. He also does not intercede when an employer tells you your job has to come first over your kid. Yeah, been there, done that.
Maybe “God” whispers to Nathaniel and tells him to ridicule single parents?
You see outlander, I used to BE “pro life”. I know that the balance of those folks, most likely you included are on one or another agenda to be sure. I believe you once called a fetus “a gift from God, not to be trifled with.” To a struggling single parent like me, such rhetoric is not in any way reassuring. It’s insulting. That’s the problem with the core of your whole movement. It is not only dishonest but it literally DRIVES honest people away.
What if the mother dies during delivery? How does your life calculus net out in that case? (a wash?)
Or do you support abortion if the pregnancy itself places the mother’s life in danger?
—————-
The pro-aborts are certainly one track thinkers, aren’t they? Let me restate, with CAPS to emphasize for the comprehension impaired:
The goal is to REDUCE the number of abortions. Every DECISION made against abortion and for life is a saved human life. What a return on investment!
Dobson has about spent his organization into the ground playing politician. I wonder what that little stink of Dobson lawyers spinning trooper gate in Alaska cost him? His donations are way down so his screeching is way up. Let’s face it!
Dobson seems to be more politically savvy than some of the faithful. One poll does not an honest movement make. He knows that. He just is never going to admit it.
Thousands of phone calls were also made by Team Sara. They have an email alert system by which they try and flood all online polls to skew the results. They should team up with Dobson……pool their resources. I think Palin is pulling in some big bucks these days and Dobson could use the support.
Monkeyhawk
Posted May 17, 2009 at 8:51 am | Permalink
“outlander” –
Your goal is to outlaw abortion.
—
I think the goal of those who provide the lion’s share of effort behind the anti-abortion movement in this country is not to outlaw abortion. Fighting legal abortion is a tactic, one designed to order their supporters’ behavior within a larger strategy. For these men and women — those who provide the most dollars, the strongest will, and/or the greatest effort — the strategic goal is to control the behavior of other human beings “for the glory of God.” Period. End of story.
Authoritarian personality types exist in all cultures, but Americans of this type deserve some discussion because they control both ends of the political spectrum here, left and right.
These people, imo, are the very kind of do-gooders the GOP (with a blind spot a mile wide) love to pillory in books like Mona Charen’s. Like all Americans, do-gooders can be herded into one of two political boxes: the political left and the political right.
American do-gooders, left and right, are the kind of people who have an extremely strong authoritarian component in their relationship with other humans. For those on the right, the source of their authoritarian compulsion is their relationship with idea of death (ie, their religion. In the US and in the Vatican the religion is Christianity, but in the Middle East it’s Islam). They’re like the Widow Douglas and Miss Watson, the meddling-for-meddling’s-sake do-gooders who were determined to sivilize Huck Finn at any cost.
There are others who provide fewer dollars, less will, and less effort who are indeed in the game to save lives. I think outlander is probably one of those.
But make no mistake: those who do the most in the effort to criminalize abortion have bigger fish to fry than saving fetuses.
utlander
Posted May 17, 2009 at 9:03 am | Permalink
The goal is to REDUCE the number of abortions. Every DECISION made against abortion and for life is a saved human life.
—
If the mother and baby die during delivery, that’s false. If the mother dies but the baby lives, it’s false (the baby’s life came at the cost of the mother’s life). Only if both live is it true that “Every DECISION made against abortion and for life is a saved human life.”
Sorry to make you squirm so.
It’s the word “every” that’s got you boxed in, outlander.
You know, since we’re all looking out here for the comprehension impaired.
We’re beginning to see how Donald Rumsfeld sold his disastrous Iraq War operation by quoting the Bible in his daily reports to Shrub.
He knew he had George WMD Bush when “You go to war with the army you have” with snippets of scripture.
But then, why should Rummy be any different from the rest of Republic Party hacks; cynically manipulating the Twice-Born to promote the Neo-Con agenda.
Dobson’s announced retirement is tacit acknowledgment the Republic Party has used the Holy Rollers for years.
If the Republic Party wanted the policy instead of the issue they could have eliminated abortion once and for all during the six years they dominated the Senate, the House, the Oval Office, and the Supreme Court.
Why didn’t they deliver on 20 years’ worth of rhetoric, CONs?
If the mother and baby die during delivery, that’s false. If the mother dies but the baby lives, it’s false (the baby’s life came at the cost of the mother’s life). Only if both live is it true that “Every DECISION made against abortion and for life is a saved human life.”
—————
Good grief. Some folks, instead of talking issues, want to parse words. Not into it, Pedant.
“Pedantic: overly concerned with minute details or formalisms”
At least you understand your problem.
outlander
Posted May 17, 2009 at 9:41 am | Permalink
If the mother and baby die during delivery, that’s false. If the mother dies but the baby lives, it’s false (the baby’s life came at the cost of the mother’s life). Only if both live is it true that “Every DECISION made against abortion and for life is a saved human life.”
—————
Good grief. Some folks, instead of talking issues, want to parse words. Not into it, Pedant.
“Pedantic: overly concerned with minute details or formalisms”
At least you understand your problem.
—
Yep. And yours is beginning to show itself as well. It’s either an inability to follow your ideas to their logical ends, or an unwillingness to do so.
Here ya go Pedant.
“ALMOST without expection, every DECISION made against abortion and for life is a saved human life.”
Knock yourself out.
There is something wrong with that poll that shows a sudden increase in pro-life votes. I think perhaps it was a bad poll. People’s opinions change over time, but rarely do you have one group of people suddenly change such core principles such as being pro-choice or anti. So before you start cheering that suddenly there are more anti-choicers out there, wait till next year and see if the poll shows the same result.
Monkeyhawk
Posted May 17, 2009 at 9:39 am | Permalink
We’re beginning to see how Donald Rumsfeld sold his disastrous Iraq War operation by quoting the Bible in his daily reports to Shrub.
—
I have to say that I have found a new way to be shocked by the Bush administration. I didn’t think that was possible any more, but believe me I am once again stunned at the utter stupidity of that man.
Had those cover sheets been leaked with Bush as POTUS, the US would have lost every inch of its moral high ground in Iraq. Any favorable outcome in Afghanistan and Pakistan would have been imperiled as well.
Not the briefings themselves: I’m talking about the top secret briefings. I am talking about leaking the cover sheets. Just leaking those would have put enormous political pressure on the administration to release the briefings themselves. Incredibly stupid.
I cannot believe the George W Bush didn’t comprehend this. Bush fundamentally failed the US here. What an incredibly stupid man he is.
The cover sheets could have been leaked without leaking the briefings themselves, resulting in ENORMOUS damage to the USA.
Incredibly, incredibly stupid.
Outlander believes that even a tortured life of pain and suffering is better than no life at all because God willed it to be so.
#
Political_mama
Posted May 17, 2009 at 9:56 am | Permalink
Outlander believes that even a tortured life of pain and suffering is better than no life at all because God willed it to be so.
———-
What a drama queen.
Political momma apparently thinks she is fit to judge what life is worth living, and somehow know how that life is going to turn out.
Incredible.
I would have thought that I could have gotten agreement on a simple statement like:
The goal is to REDUCE the number of abortions. Every DECISION made against abortion and for life is a saved human life. What a return on investment!
But no. It’s enough to make one think that some folks don’t believe that reducing the number of abortions is a good thing.
Whoops. Late. Gotta go.
“QUALITY of life for the born is not part of your menu.”—BlowJ
Did when did God make you the judge of the quality of life fjor someone else, or whether they should live or die, you bas/tard.
No one, including the a mother can judge the future quality of life for another.
Actually, Outlander, abortions were reduced during the Clinton years. Could it possibly be due to the economy was stable and people working? Not like the Bush years, huh?
So, for your argument about reducing abortions – then why not give Clinton credit for actually doing it?
bj.you used to be a dud…….oops…….you still are a dud………get a job………………………..also let your son go out the gate alone……….you are doing him a dis-service
Boxie…such language coming from a devout Christian? Do you kiss your mommy with that mouth?
pedant………….are you suggesting if over 50 million would not have been aborted that we would have 50 million less mothers
pedant….mothers of what…..a living human being or a blob?
Toto makes a good point outlandish. Why is it that when we are in office, the rate of abortions DO actually go down?
If we’re really all about giving money to the abortion doctors like you say- then they should be thrilled when you cons are in office eh?
Or perhaps you just want to breed minions for your labor force, is that it?
Yes I will judge quality of life. That is exactly the parent’s job in determining when is the right time to bring a child into this world.
If you all were so truly pro-life, you’d be trying to improve the lives or actually SAVE babies’ lives around the world instead of spending all of your money trying to tell women they can’t choose here.
The moral outrage on my part is what you fail to do for the after-born.
witch-hickey, obviously that is not what he meant. Why is it so hard for you right wing whackjobs to admit that pregnancy and childbirth are very dangerous for the mother? Even if we had all of the technology to save EVERY WOMAN, this isn’t what it is about anyway. It is her right to choose what happens to her body, no ifs ands or buts about it.
What you have a right to what happens to your own body?
How about your own back pocket? Do you have a right to keep the hands of other people out of your own back pocket?
imJohnson
Posted May 17, 2009 at 12:02 pm | Permalink
Do you have a right to keep the hands of other people out of your own back pocket?
—
Not if another’s hand is in your back pocket legally, no.
Of course you absolutely have the right to complain about it lawfully, though.
Hint: the more grounded in reality your complaints are, the more effective they are. It is not the case that the more plaintive your complaints are, the more effective they are, however. That’s a crucial distinction that usually yall fail to make.
We are a nation of laws, after all. It’s at the very core of being an American.
#
totoinks
Posted May 17, 2009 at 11:19 am | Permalink
Actually, Outlander, abortions were reduced during the Clinton years. Could it possibly be due to the economy was stable and people working? Not like the Bush years, huh?
So, for your argument about reducing abortions – then why not give Clinton credit for actually doing it?
————-
It is stupid that I have to say this, but simply because two things occur simultaneously does not mean they are related. But for all I care, toto, you yourself can have the credit as long as the number of abortions go down.
Abortion is legal, so women have that right.
There are no unjust laws.
So how many Obama supporters are Pro Life?
Yah, that makes sense.
The ‘Pro Death’ crowd has weighed in and they want continued carnage and infanticide.
Pondering at this moment, how many anti’s households are consumed with noise of pitter patter of the feet of adopted children?
Killing babies is a natural part of evolution.
If you don’t want to pay for the babies, then you should kill them.
“The moral outrage on my part is what you fail to do for the after-born.”
——–
Like I said before, some alleged pro-choice folks like PMom can only argue one way. I hailed the fact that women are making the choice for life. She can’t respond cogently, but keeps making the same tired old divisive arguments. She has no idea what I personally do for the “after-born”, yet she is perfectly willing to lie like she does.
Sad. Pathetic. And a barrier to reducing the number of abortions through choice.
“What is working, as evidenced by the recent polling showing Americans are now majority pro-life, is changing of hearts and minds.”
One recent Gallup Poll sampling did, which was offset by another poll that showed little movement (a recent CNN poll). Ther reality is, most people are deeply ambivalent about abortion, far more than hardcore partisans of either side would like to admit.
If the question was, should women be legally compelled to carry a pregnancy to term, what do you think the result would have been?
One other thing, the vast majority of both “sides” want to see the number of abortions go down.
And a barrier to reducing the number of abortions through INFORMED choice.
Agnatha
Posted May 17, 2009 at 12:36 pm | Permalink
If the question was, should women be legally compelled to carry a pregnancy to term, what do you think the result would have been?
=========================
Gosh I don’t know, a baby would be born maybe?
P-Mom,
“Toto makes a good point outlandish. Why is it that when we are in office, the rate of abortions DO actually go down?”
I’ve talked with a fair number of fundies over some few years on this issue. To a person, they aren’t remotely interested in reducing the number of abortions; they want abortion illegal in all cases, even to save the life of the mother. “Any real mother would gladly give her own life for her baby’s.” And they mean to enforce just that!
They know that making abortion illegal won’t stop it, or even appreciably reduce it. They know that combined with their desire to outlaw birth control, it will most certainly cause an abortion explosion. They don’t care, as long as it’s illegal!
Most of the objections I heard weren’t even about abortion; they consider that a just a symptom of that awful atheist satanic “Feminazi” movement- a term they use quite a lot. It offends them that a woman might choose another role than the one assigned her by gender and god. It offends them that a woman has the choice of a job, let alone that she chooses that job over her assigned role as housewife and mother. It offends them that woman would get a divorce rather than accept the abuse she no doubt earned. And it offends them that a woman might refuse them children. It offends them most that she might even collect her court-ordered child support!
Jed
Posted May 17, 2009 at 1:02 pm | Permalink
To a person, they aren’t remotely interested in reducing the number of abortions; they want abortion illegal in all cases, even to save the life of the mother. “Any real mother would gladly give her own life for her baby’s.” And they mean to enforce just that!
They know that making abortion illegal won’t stop it, or even appreciably reduce it. They know that combined with their desire to outlaw birth control, it will most certainly cause an abortion explosion. They don’t care, as long as it’s illegal!..Most of the objections I heard weren’t even about abortion.
—
Agreed.
That’s because criminalizing abortion isn’t the real goal. Controlling the behavior of others “for the glory of God”: that’s their goal.
To a person, they aren’t remotely interested in reducing the number of abortions; they want abortion illegal in all cases, even to save the life of the mother. “Any real mother would gladly give her own life for her baby’s.” And they mean to enforce just that!
———
Jed – TOTT; A little tip. If you are going to be believed, you have to be credible. Your sorry attempt to paint the face of the most extreme (in fact, I know no one who’s beliefs approach being as extreme as you have set out) on all those who are pro-life is not only unbelievable, it is dishonest.
But the good thing is that it lets everyone see the face of one who militantly supports abortion on demand.
Ped,
One of the things escorts do is check up on the criminal records of those demonstrating outside the clinics, mostly to know who to keep an eye on. But possibly the most interesting thing was how many of the men out there had outstanding warrants for failure to pay child support. One of the escorts made it her mission to call the appropriate authorities and let them know where to find their errant fathers.
Outie,
I put that in quotes because it was a direct quote from one of the fundies protesting at a clinic where I escorted. I’ve heard similar statements from others. Maybe you ought to look around you and see who you are associating with. Even the Vatican is canonizing a woman who refused chemotherapy because she was pregnant and died of cancer very shortly after delivering. They have stated that she should be a role model for every woman in that situation.
Agreed.
That’s because criminalizing abortion isn’t the real goal. Controlling the behavior of others “for the glory of God”: that’s their goal.
—————-
Chuckle… Pedant!
I thought I was reading another hopeless PMom post. But it’s you!
Taking a vacation from being “pedantic” are you? Into a fantasy land, where no one has pure motives? Where everyone has the same agenda and motivations? Where you can depersonalize your opponents and not have to think?
I have to say that I am disappointed in my old opponent.
Jed secretly wants to scrape human flesh from wombs.
I’ll try to check back later this evening. I have things to do.
Think you got it all figured out don’t you Jed? Well how does all that square with pro life women who incidentally make up more than half of all pro lifers?
I too have had discussions with those who hold opposing views to mine on abortion. I had one tell me that if I had grown up in LA like he did that I’d be for abortion too. If I had lived around all those Mexicans and Blacks like he had to, than I would want to see as many of them aborted as possible. Thats the dirty little secret of the pro abortion folks. For all their so called high minded rhetoric about protecting a “women’s right to choose” they really want legal abortion more to keep down the population levels of those they deem sub human. That was after all the goal of the feminist hero Margaret Sanger who championed eugenics and abortion back in the twenties as a way of building a master race.
Thats why Christians are compelled to fight against abortion. Not any of that crap you posted above.
outlander
Posted May 17, 2009 at 1:50 pm | Permalink
If you are going to be believed, you have to be credible. Your sorry attempt to paint the face of the most extreme (in fact, I know no one who’s beliefs approach being as extreme as you have set out) on all those who are pro-life is not only unbelievable, it is dishonest.
But the good thing is that it lets everyone see the face of one who militantly supports abortion on demand.
—
Heh. That cuts both ways: a good thing about your comment, outlander, is that it lets everyone see the face of a useful idiot in service to those providing the money, the time, and the effort to control what every American can and cannot do in the privacy of a bedroom.
You’re sincere, I’m sure. But you’re also delusional if you believe your side would dismantle operations even if abortion were made illegal in all cases. They won’t. They have far bigger fish to fry.
reggie,
“Jed secretly wants to scrape human flesh from wombs.”
Uh no, that’s not where I secretly want to scrape it from.
Ped,
Their goal isn’t to control what people do in their bedrooms, it’s to find out about it and make them feel guilty. The christian church discovered centuries ago how profitable guilt can be if properly managed.
I am personally sorry that I did not advise my son’s mother to abort him.
HOW presumptuous of me to think that the care and feeding and health care of children is the obligation of a marginally socialized society! SHAME on me for inflicting the occasional visit of my son to the doctor on the people HE will grow up to take care of and protect. We should have aborted him.
“Their goal isn’t to control what people do in their bedrooms, it’s to find out about it and make them feel guilty. The christian church discovered centuries ago how profitable guilt can be if properly managed.”
Well stated. But that is just part of it.
Also why the con and Christian religions are the perfect marriage.
If they could ever FORCE a woman to have a baby again, there would be little or nothing else to argue as an overall societal obligation. SUCH a denial of freedom and tyranny of morality would make all other causes moot.
Hungry? Too bad. Shoulda got right with your boss or god.
That’s true outlander, folks are realizing that killing defenseless innocent new life is just that, and a selfish act.
*****
After 50 years of Roe v Wade, folks are just now realizing that abortion is bad.
Woah.
Waiter, I’ll have whatever they’re drinking.
http://www.adoptuskids.org/
Here are tens of thousands of foster kids who want to be adopted by loving pro-choice families who are just thrilled that they weren’t aborted.
Uh, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is, CONs?
How many of these kids have you adopted?
This personable, friendly teen is Percell! He excels in anything musical and he would love to be professional singer someday.
What are CONs good at?
Punishing women for getting pregnant? Yes, check.
Helping to raise unwanted children. Not so much.
Political_mama
Posted May 17, 2009 at 11:37 am | Permalink
Toto makes a good point outlandish. Why is it that when we are in office, the rate of abortions DO actually go down?
================================================
Purely speculation on my part, but I think it might have something to do with Democratic administrations being willing to spend money on making contraceptives widely available and comprehensive sex-ed while Republicans tend to waste money on things like abstinence-only based programs.
It looks like sanity has returned to the White House.
—————————————
“President Obama’s new budget would eliminate most money for abstinence-only sex education and shift it to teen pregnancy prevention — a U-turn in what has been more than a decade of sex education policy in the USA.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-11-abstinence-only_N.htm
At Notre Dame, Obama Calls for Dialogue on Abortion
By PETER BAKER
Published: May 17, 2009
SOUTH BEND, Ind. — President Obama directly confronted America’s deep divide over abortion on Sunday as he appealed to partisans on both sides to find ways to respect one another’s basic decency and even work together to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.
Anti-abortion leaders protested his appearance at the University of Notre Dame and he was heckled four times during a commencement address by protesters yelling slogans like “abortion is murder.” But the audience shouted down the hecklers and cheered Mr. Obama as he called for “open hearts, open minds, fair-minded words” in a debate that has polarized the country for decades.
“Maybe we won’t agree on abortion,” the president told 2,900 graduating students as well as their relatives and professors, “but we can still agree that this is a heart-wrenching decision for any woman to make and not made casual. It has both moral and spiritual dimensions. So let’s work together to reduce the number of women seeking abortions by reducing unintended pregnancies.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/us/politics/18obama.html?hp
—
The way to minimize abortion surely lies in minimizing unwanted pregnancies — yes, thank you.
Hopefully we can all agree on that.
I’d like to congratulate Notre Dame on displaying courage for hosting the President of the United States, but if you think about it providing a forum for all points of view is merely the basic job of any university. It’s a sad state of affairs when you congratulate any institution for merely meeting the minimum requirements of their mission. Still….good on Notre Dame.
(Also: this guy, our president, is really, really, REALLY good and we’re only 120 days or so in.)
Cris,
“Well how does all that square with pro life women who incidentally make up more than half of all pro lifers?”
Do the words “Stockholm Syndrome” suggest anything to you?
YOu know, when Bush came to Kansas, we protested, but we protested calmly and legally. The ones protesting Obama today, I’m hoping Troy boy got arrested as I’m sure he was there. But look at the difference between the liberal protesters and the total nonsense fit that the antis- who had nothing to do with Notre Dame, pulled.
That’s the new angle the antis try to pull, they’ve been trying to pull it for awhile now- that abortion is racism-based. Which is preposterous. Tell that to black people who know first hand how expensive it is to raise a child on the minimum pay that they get.
THEY KNOW that if they wish to make good lives for their future children, that they have to have the opportunity to get ahead…and that means not having children until they are done with school.
Pro-choice is pro-woman in every way. It allows each woman to control her own destiny. But you go right ahead saying how racist itis. I don’t know who you’re trying to convince because it aint the minorities.
Ahead of Obama’s address, at least 27 people were arrested on trespassing charges. They included Norma McCorvey, the plaintiff identified as “Roe” in the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. She now opposes abortion and joined more than 300 anti-abortion demonstrators at the school’s front gate.
I think their ultimate goal is to control sex and women. Force women to start procreating and marrying from menstruation. If you’re old enough to want sex, you’re old enough to get married and breed for your man.
They’ve been madder than all get out since the time that women got the right to vote, to work and demand equal pay for equal work. How DARE we not have his supper on the table and worship at his feet when God says women are to do just that.
Norma McCorvey is a whackjob too. She deserves to be on your side. If I were you, I’d be not so thrilled to have her on your side. You really should read her story, she’s either a liar or she’s just that stupid.
Kind of reminds me of you P_mama.
And that’s a fact!
Postman of Armageddon
Atheist Joshua Witter sells cards to Christians that he will deliver to those left behind after the rapture. (Orlando Sentinel / May 15, 2009)
There are those who believe in the Rapture prophesied in the Bible. And there is Joshua Witter, avowed atheist.
They need each other.
At least some people think so — those willing to pay Witter to be their post-apocalyptic postman, delivering cards and letters to their non-believing friends, relatives and neighbors who will be left behind when the Day of Reckoning arrives.
About 70 people have paid the Orlando man about $5 apiece to get their messages to those doomed to face the plagues, pestilence and darkness of Armageddon.
“They included Norma McCorvey, the plaintiff identified as “Roe” in the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. ”
ALMOST anybody can be bought for the right price.
Did you ever see Laura Dern in “Citizen Ruth?”
Put it on your Netflix queue.
Outie,
From your old pal Flip Benham:
In a 2006 interview with Al Gross of KJSL-AM in suburban St. Louis, during the morning drive-time program “Mornings with Tim and Al”, Benhan stated he would let a daughter die rather than abort an ectopic pregnancy.
“Jed” –
Oh my.
Last summer my favorite niece (yeah, I have favorites) experienced an ectopic pregnancy.
Benham’s extremism hits close to home.
Causes chills.
Monk,
“Atheist Joshua Witter sells cards to Christians that he will deliver to those left behind after the rapture. (Orlando Sentinel / May 15, 2009)”
Suppose he’d mail the “wish you were here” cards from the post office in Hell, Michigan?
Monk,
“Oh my.”
Yeah.
I’ve heard several of our local fundies express similar sentiments. One who said he preferred illegal abortions because “more women die that way, as God wishes.” Another who said to me that “Any real woman would die before she had an abortion!”
There’s a reason these nuts are scary.
P-Mom,
“I’m hoping Troy boy got arrested as I’m sure he was there. But look at the difference between the liberal protesters and the total nonsense fit that the antis- who had nothing to do with Notre Dame, pulled.”
Yeah well, Troyboy likes getting arrested- carries bail money in his shoe. He’s totally into political theater. Unfortunately, he doesn’t know any playwrights and stinks at improv.
#
Jed
Posted May 17, 2009 at 7:31 pm | Permalink
Outie,
From your old pal Flip Benham:
In a 2006 interview with Al Gross of KJSL-AM in suburban St. Louis, during the morning drive-time program “Mornings with Tim and Al”, Benhan stated he would let a daughter die rather than abort an ectopic pregnancy.
————-
Well gosh Jed, since you keep pulling the SOS, I guess I’ll just restate what I said before:
“Jed – TOTT; A little tip. If you are going to be believed, you have to be credible. Your sorry attempt to paint the face of the most extreme (in fact, I know no one who’s beliefs approach being as extreme as you have set out) on all those who are pro-life is not only unbelievable, it is dishonest.
But the good thing is that it lets everyone see the face of one who militantly supports abortion on demand.”
LOL I’m so willing to deliver messages for 10 bucks after the rapture. Evangelicals get your rapture delivered here!
Yes, it is the fundamentalists who believe that you should die for your God in order to receive eternal life in Heaven. Yet the same people claim extremist Muslims are evil for the very same beliefs.
“But the good thing is that it lets everyone see the face of one who militantly supports abortion on demand.”
There can be no other way.
Women are either free to choose or not. Even if you make abortion illegal, many will still attempt to exercise this very natural right. Efforts in any attempt to restrict of ban abortion are thus a waste of resources that could be better used to help women choose as you would try to force them too. Think efforts as to economic and social welfare here.
Actually outie, what I support is a woman’s right to make her own decisions about what occupies her body and when.
Yes, it is the fundamentalists who believe that you should die for your God in order to receive eternal life in Heaven. Yet the same people claim extremist Muslims are evil for the very same beliefs.
—————
I say this with all the kindness I can muster P Mom. You are an ill informed idiot. Where do you get your ideas?
“A baby is a gift from God, not to be trifled with.”
Those were your words were they not outlander?
Well that sounds pretty cut and dried. Unless you have changed your views upon reflection, it would seem that your agenda would necessarily include banning abortion as illegal. Am I missing anything?
I saw another one of those bumper stickers today — why is it CONs only speak in bumper-sticker-ese? — the one that says, Choose Life.
Fine.
Groovy.
But preserve the choice.
Preserve a choice that assures that choice isn’t left to the hands of a back-alley butcher.
Choice.
That’s what’s the issue.
Convince me, a 12-year-old incest victim, that it’s a better choice to carry a pregnancy full-term. If she chooses it, groovy.
If she’s denied the choice, who should be responsible?
You CONs?!
Let me dictate all your medical decisions for a a few years, CONs.
Let’s see how that works out.
You seem to forget Outlander, I was once a fundamentalist CHristian. And yes, that is exactly what they taught.
Convince me, a 12-year-old incest victim, that it’s a better choice to carry a pregnancy full-term. If she chooses it, groovy.
If she’s denied the choice, who should be responsible?
You CONs?!
Let me dictate all your medical decisions for a a few years, CONs.
Let’s see how that works out.
————-
You see, Monkey you folks can’t handle a variable. Same as Jed, you paint the entire movement wit the views of the most extreme. Most folks, except the most fringe pro lifers support a rape, incest, life of the mother exception. I know it is tough when the opponent isn’t a single minded entity, but try to adapt. There is common ground. Although I must say, not one pro choice person has agreed with me that reducing the number of abortions is a good thing. (I could have missed it)
#
Political_mama
Posted May 17, 2009 at 8:36 pm | Permalink
You seem to forget Outlander, I was once a fundamentalist CHristian. And yes, that is exactly what they taught.
———–
Baloney.
P-Mom,
Actually I think outie is correct there. Catholics are the ones who sell martyrdom. Fundies are of a more Calvinist bent and believe that nobody is good enough to be saved except possibly Calvin. Yet somehow, they all expect to get raptured up. Fairly confused bunch.
What does “trifle with” mean, BJ?
I know what my religion taught, and it did teach that you should better die for God than break his rules.
Outlander, I’ll tell you this- when you decide to give up a Kidney to a complete stranger to save their life, give me a call and we’ll talk about how precious a bunch of cells are in a woman’s womb that doesn’t want them there.
“outlander” tries –
“…you folks can’t handle a variable. Same as Jed, you paint the entire movement wit the views of the most extreme….”
Yeah.
That’s no different at all from how the CONs tried to defend torture with the Jack Bauer scenarios.
Or how Bill O’Reilly thinks gender-neutral marriage will lead to people marrying turtles.
Yeah.
Mine is a “libruhl” curse.
Yours is thoughtful discourse.
“Most folks, except the most fringe pro lifers support a rape, incest, life of the mother exception.”
So are you willing, “outlander,” to reject all your so-called “fringe pro-lifers” from public discourse on the issue?
Seems you realize you have a lot of extremists on your side. Do you accept them or not?
I would hope and assume you disassociate yourself from the clinic-bombers, the doctor-assassins, the nurse-shooters…. Do you?
“There is common ground.”
Really.
Like, perhaps… CHOICE?
Go out and convince women to not abort their pregnancies.
That’s our common ground.
I really have no dog in this fight since I cannot get pregnant.
So what standing do I have to enforce a lack of choice on those who do?
“…not one pro choice person has agreed with me that reducing the number of abortions is a good thing. (I could have missed it)”
You missed it alright.
Do the words, “Safe, Legal, and Rare” not ring a bell for you “outlander?”
No one is “pro-abortion.”
That’s as absurd as calling someone “pro-amputation.”
You advocates of illegal abortion need to reel back your rhetoric if there’s gonna be the “common ground” you speak about.
Here Monkey. Take this wash cloth and clean up.
————–
Go out and convince women to not abort their pregnancies.
That’s our common ground. – Monkey
————
Good Lord. I think he finally got it. I only had to repeat it 3 times.
But don’t hinder in the education of the mom to be. She has to have the facts.
Changing hearts and minds.
“What does “trifle with” mean, BJ?”
Maybe YOU better tell me?
“Most folks, except the most fringe pro lifers support a rape, incest, life of the mother exception. ”
See, that’s the thing. THAT doesn’t make any sense. The fetus that is the result of rape or incest or is a threat to the mother’s life was not a party to the crime or an intentional aggressor.
I truly do not think you can logically parse this one. A woman is either free to choose or she is not. A fetus is either entitled to equal treatment under the law as the mother or it is not. As things are and are likely to stay, a woman’s right to choose wins out. THIS is perfectly consistent with the rest of nature.
This parsing is useless outlander. I have hopes that at least YOU could get that. We know the main reason WHY women choose abortion is economical. She wants to preserve her resources either for herself or her already born children. Your best bet at ameliorating abortion is to ASSIST her in voluntarily, even enthusiastically choosing life.
NO BJ. I just think that you don’t know what it means. If you did, you wouldn’t act like you disagree with it.
What does “trifle with ” mean?
“But don’t hinder in the education of the mom to be. She has to have the facts.”
Perhaps she should be made to read here? She should be made aware of all the “pro life” people who give single dad me all the grief in the world and not a word of respect.
#
Political_mama
Posted May 17, 2009 at 8:12 pm | Permalink
LOL I’m so willing to deliver messages for 10 bucks after the rapture. Evangelicals get your rapture delivered here!
Yes, it is the fundamentalists who believe that you should die for your God in order to receive eternal life in Heaven. Yet the same people claim extremist Muslims are evil for the very same beliefs.
=========================================
You must have been a member of the Islamic Jihad then P-Mom.
There isn’t a Christian denomination that believes in what you wrote. If you don’t believe me, ask Chas.
John 3:16 P-mom. That is what will get you into heaven (if you believe sincerely and devote your life to Christ)
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
#
BlueJay
Posted May 17, 2009 at 9:19 pm | Permalink
“But don’t hinder in the education of the mom to be. She has to have the facts.”
Perhaps she should be made to read here? She should be made aware of all the “pro life” people who give single dad me all the grief in the world and not a word of respect.
————————-
Respect is earned, not given.
“Respect is earned, not given.”
So show me your respect for life is real and not dishonest.
Pedant
Posted May 17, 2009 at 1:40 pm | Permalink
Controlling the behavior of others “for the glory of God”: that’s their goal
================================
THE OBAMA agenda today is ALL ABOUT controling the behaviors of others.
Pendant, in pointing fingers at others, gives away the LIB AGENDA.
It’s ok if GOVERNMENT controls behaviors in the direction you prefer.
Gotta love Big Government, as long as it’s controling things in the way YOU like to see.
Forget about – Freedom.
BJ, how would YOU know anything about earning respect?
Who respects you?
(Not me!)
If you cannot support even one child, how can you possibly respect yourself? Much less, how can you expect others to respect you?
God I’d hate to be a dependent beggar, clawing my way thru life expecting the village to take care of me.
Who will take care of the village?
Jed said: “I’ve talked with a fair number of fundies over some few years on this issue. To a person, they aren’t remotely interested in reducing the number of abortions; they want abortion illegal in all cases, even to save the life of the mother. ‘Any real mother would gladly give her own life for her baby’s.’ And they mean to enforce just that!”
Now, it is very important to realize that there is a selective influence at work here. Most of the people a clinic escort is going to encounter are going to be pretty extreme on the issue. The actual issue, however, is much more nuanced.
1) Yes, there are people who describe themselves as passionately pro-life who also put their money where the mouth is. They actually do adopt unwanted children, including children with substantial health or developmental issues.
2) There are people who tend liberal who also tend “pro-life”, particularly in the disability rights community.
I agree with President Obama in his call to try to reach common ground.
The spam troll cluelessly snarked: “Gosh I don’t know, a baby would be born maybe?”
You misunderstood, Ace. I was talking about the survey. I suspect that many of the people who describe themselves as “pro-life” nevertheless would not be in favor of legally compelling a woman to carry a pregnancy to term.
Also, a sidebar. Obama continues to react cluelessly on gay rights issues, even when the public favors it. The Army cluelessly discharged another translater because he announced that he was gay. Obama decided not to fight this policy “at this time”. This is the time to fight it.
Obama still doesn’t seem to get it (the very reason why people like Dobson are so frustrated): Obama views “values issues” as a liability for Democrats. He believes that is the lesson of the 2004 elections. In point of fact, the lesson of the 2006 and 2008 elections (particularly the former) is that the Christian Right can swiftly become a liability. Obama won’t even take a stand for “change” when the majority is on the “liberal” side.
See Kia? There are still those of us ready to criticize Obama for his stands (or in this case, non-stands) on hot button social issues. Try not to have another meltdown over it.
One doesn’t earn respect from someone accustomed (like “Regular” and “JimJohnson) to begging for it.
See also, troll posts.
The spam troll: “THE OBAMA agenda today is ALL ABOUT controling the behaviors of others.
“Pendant, in pointing fingers at others, gives away the LIB AGENDA.
“It’s ok if GOVERNMENT controls behaviors in the direction you prefer.
“Gotta love Big Government, as long as it’s controling things in the way YOU like to see.
“Forget about – Freedom.”
Oh clueless irony.
Upon misinterpreting an earlier comment of mine to mean what the result of compelling a woman to carry a pregnancy to term would be…he shot back:
“Gosh I don’t know, a baby would be born maybe?”
Who would be legally compelling a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, Ace? GOVERNMENT???? (like socialism, four bangs are warranted here).
Are you one of those conservatives who is all for authoritarian government as long as it isn’t about makin’ money and redistributin’ wealth?
That’s right, read carefully ladies.
I will never be faced with having to personally choose abortion.
But witness those who would take away your choice.
I many times told a former employer, “My son has to come first”.
Maybe “JimJohnson” will opine as to that?
I thought you all kept saying Chas wasn’t really a Christian if that’s really all you have to do? Great. Now that we’ve settled that Chas really IS a christian, and people can do whatever they want to and still be christians, I guess you can stop trying to scare everyone into believers, right?
And no regular, I was never any Jihadist of any sort- my religion were pacifists.
But you were expected to give every part of yourself to their religion.
Yup, dang authoritarian Government protecting babies from getting killed.
Can’t let THAT happen.
Political_mama
Posted May 17, 2009 at 11:21 pm | Permalink
people can do whatever they want to and still be christians
===============================
Is that what Chas told you?
Who said that?
On on Earth can you possibly reach such a conclusion?
No that’s what Regular just told me.
Pay attention.
Morality is always legislated by the government. What we do always has moral implications. What matters is WHOSE morality is being legislated.
Jimbo,
“On on Earth can you possibly reach such a conclusion?”
It’s easy enough when you watch what they do instead of listening to what they say.
“I many times told a former employer, “My son has to come first”.
Maybe “JimJohnson” will opine as to that?”–the big BlowJ
And maybe your “employer” was a lot smarter than you and knew you were using your son as an excuse to be the lazy slug you have shown yourself to be here and fired your a/ss…..which you deserved.