Northern Sedgwick County isn’t the only place along the Arkansas River where some landowners oppose adding public access points on the river for canoeists and kayakers. The Reno County Commission heard Tuesday from citizens concerned about trespassing, littering and other trouble. According to the Hutchinson News, Mike Fahrbach of the Haven area e-mailed commissioners about his experience with trespassers, four-wheelers and litterers. “Beer cans, beer bottles, beer cartons, diapers, shotgun shells and boxes, general trash, an old refrigerator, car parts, buckets of things, fast-food sacks. We even had an abandoned recliner until someone decided it needed to be lit on fire,” wrote Fahrbach, who acknowledged that those who go fishing or canoeing “have never caused a single problem.”
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31 Comments
Lets face it, the Arkansas River up near Hutchinson, Haven, Mt. Hope, etc. doesn’t usually run enough water to enjoy conoeing. And the water that does run in the Arkansas River channel is heavily polluted.
The purpose of the Arkansas River access project is to use county government tax funds for a Kansas City consultants river access plans and for construction of concrete ramps along the channel to get off-road vehicles into the channel.
Who can blame residents along there to want to protect their peaceful neighborhood from abusers of their adjacent properties.
Well written JWink.
“Who can blame residents along there to want to protect their peaceful neighborhood from abusers of their adjacent properties.”
Here.
No one owns the river. And your very argument turns itself on its head.
It has been greedy and thoughtless use of Kansas water by private interests that has dropped our water table.
“those who go fishing or canoeing “have never caused a single problem.”
There ya go.
More eyes on the river of people allowed to legally be there. Then maybe some landowners will think twice about using the watershed as a garbage dump, or worse.
Mike Fahrbach of the Haven area e-mailed commissioners about his experience with trespassers, four-wheelers and litterers. “Beer cans, beer bottles, beer cartons, diapers, shotgun shells and boxes, general trash, an old refrigerator, car parts, buckets of things, fast-food sacks. We even had an abandoned recliner until someone decided it needed to be lit on fire,”
Don’t allow Christian Church campouts and these things won’t happen.
hahahahahaha
“No one owns the river.”
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that rivers that are navigable, for title purposes, are owned by the states, “held in trust” for the public. This applies in all fifty states, under the “Equal Footing Doctrine.” Rivers that do meet the federal test are automatically navigable, and therefore owned by the state.
The states own these rivers up to the “ordinary high water mark.” This is the mark that people can actually see on the ground, where the high water has left debris, sand, and gravel during its ordinary annual cycle.”
Yield unto the state, that which is the states. But if the canoers stray one inch onto the private property above the water line – yield unto the .45 in the landowners good hand.
So let it be written, so let it be done.
The concept of land ownership exercised in this country is archaic and stupid.
Land endures. IF not ruined or exploited. People are transient.
The answer here as to river access is to use the power of the state to ….encourage land “owners” to act in more socially conscious ways. By that I mean they allow access or their land is condemned, they are paid a fair price, and the land becomes property of the people, as it was meant to be.
in this country is archaic and stupid.
==========================
First the BJ posts nonsense about noone owning the river.
Then BJ crys the law is stupid. So they shouldn’t be followed.
How convenient.
Damn, that’s weak bug.
Got any better?
Land is eternal. Man is not, The idea of private ownership of land for anything other than preservation purpose is absurd.
Laws reflect the common concensus of the public good. I cannot see how the private hoarding of one of the few natural resources this state HAS can be seen as in the way of the public good.
You guys been taking the couch with you again when you go Kayaking? Now Grandma told you better than that. Stop it.
============================
But they are right I believe in that the landowner does not own the banks other than to the high water marks. The banks I believe are open to get out and rest etc. But the trash thing is gonna get you in trouble.
Heck in Montana the state puts roads across your property ever so far so people can drive down to get to the river to canoe or fly fish.
“The purpose of the Arkansas River access project is to use county government tax funds for a Kansas City consultants river access plans and for construction of concrete ramps along the channel to get off-road vehicles into the channel.”
JWink – as one of those who worked on ARCAP I am calling you a LIAR.
ATVs already have all the access they need as evidenced by the damaga they are doing. OUR goal is the opposite – law-abiding citizens with cell phones who will cal 911 when we see law-breakers. It has been proved time and time again that putting more law-abiding citizens out there DECREASES crime.
“Fahrbach, who acknowledged that those who go fishing or canoeing “have never caused a single problem.”” A very important statement. We are the solution; not the problem.
Unless, of course, you are one of those landowners who uses the river as a dump and hunts out-of-season. That land-owner DOES have something to fear from paddlers.
“stray one inch onto the private property above the water line – yield unto the .45 in the landowners good hand.” So I suppose if you had a flat tire and came to my front door asking for help I should just gun you down. I guess that is a good Christian way to look upon one’s fellow man.
bth says: “JWink — As one of those who worked on ARCAP, I am calling you a liar.”
bth: Should I assume then you don’t agree with my assessment of the situation? I did attend a meeting in Maize at which the Kansas City consultants, not very enthusistically, explained their expensive plan for Arkansas River access points.
To me, it looked like another public funded pie in the sky, tax wasting project.
As I have said before, I support projects that are beneficial to saving our environment and water and air. But this isn’t one of them.
Coincidentally, yesterday, I drove up to the Arkansas River north of Yoder and over in South Hutchinson. The channel was flowing water in both locations but I’m not sure canoing would be much fun in those wide sandy shallow channels. More portage time than swift boating.
In Pratt later yesterday, I made a point to walk to the Ninnescah River on the west side of town near Rick’s Cafe/Evergreen Hotel. That was my hunting area back when I was growing up. I often drive a couple more miles northwest to the wetlands acres where the Ninnescah rises up to begin its so far never failing flow eastward towards Wichita.
In any case, the flow is slower now than when I was a kid exploring that section of the Ninnescah. The water seemed not as clear but possibly because of recent rains.
These rivers that do flow water in Kansas are produced by water from the Ogallala aquifer rising to the surface through a combination of sloping elevation to the south west and perhaps hitting a barrier of clay underground that forces the aquifer water upward.
There are a number of wetlands in Kansas in an arc from the Cheyenne Bottoms in Barton County southward visible from K-61 and on southward to Pratt and Kingman counties.
As I have written about previously, the irresponsible Kansas Department of Transportation (KDOT) is cutting and slashing its way through an ancient wetlands along Highway 54 in western Kingman and eastern Pratt counties. Its apparently some kind of huge tax spending program to build a limited access interstate highway, complete with cloverleaf intersections at the farm roads, and a huge flyover loop around Cunningham (population 200). And to add insult to injury, KDOT is burning thousands of Kansas trees that make up the old 1930’s shelterbelts inspired by Eleanor Roosevelt, wife of FDR, to protect Kansas wildlife and reduce duststorms.
I asked a KDOT engineer how they could justify cutting and slashing their way through the ancient Kansas wetlands along that stretch of Highway 54. His answer was that KDOT would “just install some sewer pipes to move the wetlands further south out of their way and at the same time channelize the Ninnescah River into rip-rap lined open storm sewer near this section of their new Wichita to Mexico $100,000,000 NAFTA super highway “improvement.”
bth: That’s where you and the Sierra Club members should be marching in protest if you want to protect the traditional Kansas way of life.
jw – as you are fully aware the Ninescah is NOT a navigable water way. The Ark IS a navigable waterway. As you are aware that is a critical legal distinction.
You might NOT be aware of the fact that much of the consultants bill was paid with PRIVATE money. We donated that money in support of a project that we believe to be worthwhile. We are aware that if we can increase law-abiding citizen use of the river we will increase pressure to protect it.
I am in sgreement that the slashing of the PRIVATE Ninescah is a bad thing. We HAVE protested it. Too bad the landowners don’t care.
By the way – when you were on the Ninescah whose land were you trespassing on?
As for dodging/portaging sandbars that is part of what makes canoing interesting. It doesn’t take much water to float a canoe or kayak. The diversity of river conditions through the three-county ARCAP study area is huge – from almost dry up north to wide and deep down by Oxford.
bth: Yes, I am familiar with the difference between navigable and non-navigable streams.
It is remarkable that in dry central Kansas, we have several streams/rivers that run water all the time and have for many years.
I’m thinking of the north and south branches of the Ninnescah River. The south branch Ninnescah River meanders under and around Highway 54 in Kingman and Pratt counties. The north branch of the Ninnescah starts in the north part of Pratt County and meanders north up around the towns of Stafford on US 50 and Arlington on K-61 and then southeasterly where it furnishes the water for Cheney reservoir.
Paralleling the south branch of the Ninnescah but perhaps 15 miles or so south is the fabled Chikaskia River that begins south of Cunningham near the village of St. Leo. The Chikaskia River is reputed to begin in a jumble of old Budweiser and Coors beer kegs thrown out the back door of the St. Leo Catholic Church after weddings and shindigs down there. This gives the Chikaskia River water a certain mellow moldy beer taste that makes catfish and carp grow bigger and taste better.
Then further south in Barber County is the Medicine Lodge River that drains the Gyp Hills, sometimes known as the Red Hills. I have always thought that back in eons of time, the Arkansas River at its bend to the northeast south of Dodge City …. might have continued to the southeast through the valley of the Medicine Lodge River forming the beautiful Gyp Hills region of south central Kansas.
Perhaps a huge and long lasting dust storm a million years ago near the present towns of Ford and Bucklin changed the direction of the Arkansas River away from the Gyp Hills valley.
But now in 2009 and beyond, the lowering of the Ogallala aquifer water table by “big industry aided by Kansas government” is threatening the future of these “always running streams.” And threatening the future of Kansas environment and drinking water supplies.
Does anyone care?
bth asked: “By the way, when you visited the Ninnescah River at Pratt yesterday, on whose land were you trespassing?”
My answer: At that point about two miles west of Pratt, I reached the Ninnescah River by the same route I used as a teenager … I walked along the old Rock Island railroad tracks for about 1/2 mile from a county road. Also approached the downstream side of the railroad bridge from a beautiful rural church parking lot.
Of course, there are a number of public places in Pratt County to reach the Ninnescah River. For example the US 281 highway bridge on the south edge of town. Or the large forested City Park in the southeast corner of Pratt. Or east of town a couple miles, at the beautiful old Pratt Fish Hatchery and Museum established in the 1920’s. Lots of towering Maple and Cottonwood trees in all these locations. The Cottonwoods just now beginning to drop their cottonwood seeds.
So – you trespassed on the same land you trespased when you were a kid. And, if you floated down the river you trespassed some more. That is why ARCAP focused on the ARK – we don’t trespass anywhere with it.
I am quite familiar with the Minescah – have camped on property (with permission) along its banks as a Boy Scout leader.
Small world….I camped with fellow Scouts several times on the banks of the Ninnescah just north of the bridge crossing on K-42.
That was one of my favorite places to camp.
bth and Daniel: I think more water flows in the Ninnescah River where it crosses under K-42 northeast of Harper than flows in July in the Arkansas River north of Yoder. I choose Yoder location rather than downtown Wichita to cancel out the inflow from the Little Arkansas River from Halstead.
So bth, which river is the defacto “navigable stream”?
“So bth, which river is the defacto “navigable stream”?”
The ARK. If you don’t understand then you should ask your attorney.
jw – I don’t make that decision; the Courts did many years ago.
“The basis for federal jurisdiction over navigable waters lies in the U.S. Constitution. Since the early nineteenth century, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8) gives the federal government extensive authority to regulate interstate commerce. This view originated in 1824 in the landmark case of gibbons v. ogden, 22 U.S. (9 Wheat.) 1, 6 L. Ed. 23. In Gibbons, the Court was faced with deciding whether to give precedence to a state or federal law for the licensing of vessels. It ruled that navigation of vessels in and out of the ports of the nation is a form of interstate commerce and thus federal law must take precedence. This decision led to the contemporary exercise of broad federal power over navigable waters, and in countless other areas of interstate commerce.”
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Navigable+Waters
jw – as you are aware – if I canoe down the Ninescah without obtaining permission from all landowners along the way I am trespassing. As you are also aware that can land me in trouble. So, as you are now also aware establishing access points along the Ninescah would be pointless without all these permissions.
Now, as you are ALSO aware, the LEGAL status of the ARK as navigable changes all that.
My street becomes a water way, which is navigable after a heavy rain. :)
bth: So the Federal Government protects your rights to canoe on the Arkansas River from the Colorado/Kansas state line easterly past Syracuse, Kansas, past Garden City (home of the irrigated Sugar Beet industry in the early 1900’s), past old Front Street in Dodge City, around the bend at Ford, Kansas, northeast towards Kinsley and Great Bend.
As legal as it might be, with Federal Marshals protecting your rights, you would still be the laughing stock of western Kansans. You might even get your photograph on the front page of the Dodge City newspaper.
BECAUSE, there is no water flowing in the Arkansas River channel and hasn’t been for probably twenty years. The dry dusty Arkansas River river bed is used by off-road vehicles with no mufflers to churn up the river sand along that route and for keg parties by cattle herders. Probably a final resting place for some old refrigerators and rusted auto bodies.
It would be one long portage. Perhaps you could hire an off-road vehicle to drag your canoe eastward to the current dry/wet line probably near where the Pawnee River intersects with the Arkansas River west of Great Bend.
I wish someone who is familiar with that stretch of the Arkansas River come on here to tell us where the dry line is and how fast its moving eastward towards Wichita.
But I doubt if I will be canoing out there in western Kansas this summer.
“But if the canoers stray one inch onto the private property above the water line – yield unto the .45 in the landowners good hand.”
Kill as many as you can Roach, it will cut down on your V.I.A.G.R.A. bill.
Sucks to be you, Roach……………………..
Just out of curiosity, Roach, how often do you shoot little kids that accidentally ride their bikes across your lawn?
Daily?
Once a week?
Are you happy to be a child-killer, Roach?
jw – you mis the point. We worked on a specific three-county area to improve access. With this access law-abiding citizens would be able to enjow 100 miles of our river.
I invite you to write a check to fund a similar study on the Ninescah. Just keep in mind, however, that access alone will not be sufficient there. You will need to get permossions from all property owners as well.
Perhaps you can do it. Go ahead – I and others will salute you if you are successful.
What? People dare to think they have access to public waterways?
Gasp!
How dare they!?!
bth: Let me give you and/or the Sierra Club a project. That is, find out where the dry line currently is on the Arkansas River and how fast it’s moving towards Hutchinson and Wichita.
My guess that dry line is currently out around Kinsley but I don’t know anyone there to ask.
And how much of the water still running in the Arkansas River is polluted from sewage treatment plant effluent and agricultural fields runoff?
Ben is absolutely right in his post as far as Nin. & Ark. rivers.
I would welcome more public access to the Ark., I think it would help introduce more people to the enjoyment of the outdoors.
Ben: I guess my interest is to keep good clean water flowing IN our Kansas rivers … and NOT who is floating on them … or driving off-road vehicles through the sand bars in them. .
Its obvious that many of our elected politicians see Kansas water and the Kansas environment as a commodity to be sold to the highest bidder.
Kansas water and the environment belongs to the people of Kansas. But politicians seem to pull their cars around the people to the head of the parade. For example, new Governor Parkinson, who most Kansans never heard of, quickly sold Kansas water and environmental safety to the Sunflower Power Company to build the super-size coal-fired power plant out near Garden City/Holcomb.
Of course, I guess state government will buy Gov. Parkinson bottled water and face masks during his remaining time in the Kansas Governor’s office.
Article –
Mike Fahrbach of the Haven area e-mailed commissioners about his experience with trespassers, four-wheelers and litterers. “Beer cans, beer bottles, beer cartons, diapers, shotgun shells and boxes, general trash, an old refrigerator, car parts, buckets of things, fast-food sacks. We even had an abandoned recliner until someone decided it needed to be lit on fire,”
BTH –
“law-abiding citizens with cell phones who will call 911 when we see law-breakers. It has been proved time and time again that putting more law-abiding citizens out there DECREASES crime.”
So what happen to the law enforcement service that this guy’s tax dollars paid for?