The state Senate Judiciary Committee heard testimony today supporting state Sen. Carolyn McGinn’s proposed repeal of the death penalty and will hear from death penalty supporters Friday, before deciding whether to send the repeal to the full Senate. It’s good to see legislators re-examining this tough issue. As we said in today’s editorial, though 65 percent of Kansans in a new poll support keeping the 15-year-old death penalty law, “the costs are mounting and death row is filling up, with no executions carried out or even in sight. McGinn’s repeal wouldn’t undo the cases of those already sentenced to die, but it would recognize that Kansas’ death penalty isn’t working as intended and get rid of it going forward.”
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91 Comments
“…65 percent of Kansans in a new poll support keeping the 15-year-old death penalty law,…”
‘Nuff said.
60% of people believe that extraterrestrial life exists….
‘Nuff said.
The majority of Kansans are pro-death Christians and they want nothing more than to up the body count in the state regardless of how many social programs must be cut to pay for it. No point in letting common sense start now.
“95 percent of U.S. adults say that sometimes innocent people are convicted of murder”
‘Nuff said.
(http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=882)
“half (52%) of Americans believe that executing people who commit murder does not have much effect on deterring others from committing murder.”
‘Nuff said.
(http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=882)
100% of executed people never kill again.
““95 percent of U.S. adults say that sometimes innocent people are convicted of murder””
Not a single executed person has been proven to have been innocent. Not one.
I don’t believe the figures of relative costs of the death penalty and life imprisonment that have been expressed recently in the press. I would like to see State Senator McGuinn break those down in more detail. Additionally, in any case, I favor continuing and actually applying the death penalty in cases of especially gruesome murders.
“fleettwood
Posted February 26, 2009 at 2:43 pm | Permalink
““95 percent of U.S. adults say that sometimes innocent people are convicted of murder””
Not a single executed person has been proven to have been innocent. Not one.”
Kind of late to put much energy into defending themselves or discoving the truth at that point…
But, people on death row have been found innocent and freed.
“But, people on death row have been found innocent and freed.”
Thank you for agreeing system works.
I used to be all for the death penalty.
However, as I saw more and more people that had been wrongly convicted later freed I lost my faith in the system.
If there was a way to ensure that no innocent person would ever be executed, I would again support the death penalty.
However, as long as there is a risk, even a slight one, that innocent people could be convicted of crimes, it is wrong to have such a final, irreversible punishment as the death penalty.
Bottom line:
It is always better to let a few bad people set in prison than to execute even one innocent person.
“fleettwood
Posted February 26, 2009 at 2:49 pm | Permalink
“But, people on death row have been found innocent and freed.”
Thank you for agreeing system works.”
If the system worked they would not have been on death row.
“100% of executed people never kill again.”
Never heard o’ kuru, eh?
Brian, I believe extraterestrial life exists. That they invest the total resources of multiple stellar systems to travel extra-solar distances to abscond with the reproductive organs of bovine feedstock? Get real!!!
Sacco and Vanzeti, Joe Hill, Rubin Carter(techanally not death row but could have been) those are all cases where evidence was lacking yet punishments carried out.
“If the system worked they would not have been on death row.”
They weren’t put to death. The system works.
“100% of executed people never kill again.”
100% of child molesting priests have read the Bible.
100% of never married couples never get divorced.
“Sacco and Vanzeti”
Perfect! You people love them.
Maybe we should try to have a fetus or brain dead vegetable executed, that way the Republicans will demand an end to the death penalty.
The majority of Kansans think the universe is around 8000 years old. The majority of Christians, who believe the above, hence, the bible, which states, vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord, think we should execute people.
Sacco and Vanzeti, never said I agreed with thier political views, (athough anarchists would seem to be natural allies of small government cons). But the point is that the evdience convicting them was sorly lacking and were going to excute people who have unconventional political views now?
There is another solution to the backlog on death row. Start killing them.
There are cases where criminals have pled guilty – to avoid the death penalty. Life without parole sounded pretty nice to them.
Saved a bunch of money prosecuting them. And less anguish for the families.
the guy in Ark city tried doing that and they said No and still went thru the expense of a trial.
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
The majority of Kansans think the universe is around 8000 years old.
======================
Again, bullsh^t.
#
ANTI
Posted February 26, 2009 at 4:43 pm | Permalink
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
The majority of Kansans think the universe is around 8000 years old.
======================
Again, bullsh^t.
=========================================
Really? Prove me wrong, I’ll be happy to apologize.
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
The majority of Kansans think the universe is around 8000 years old.
—————
JMWalker, do you honestly believe the above statement?
Democrats – Snark and insults in this thread
Republicans – Logic and common sense in this thread
’nuff said…
Regular, a review of the last few days of posts reveals your statement to be very true. Republicans have posted about the issues, events, and provided factual info and links.
Democrats, to include Walker, have reverted to name-calling, and negatives about posters. But little of substance.
Almost like the old days when Republicans ruled. So maybe it’s more indicative of the clientele?
“Regular
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:06 pm | Permalink
Democrats – Snark and insults in this thread
Republicans – Logic and common sense in this thread
’nuff said…”
Not everyone fits into your nice, neat little buckets of us versus them
#
ANTI
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:00 pm | Permalink
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
The majority of Kansans think the universe is around 8000 years old.
—————
JMWalker, do you honestly believe the above statement?
=========================================
Yes. In fact, I believe there was a thread pretty much dedicated to it.
Not everyone fits into your nice, neat little buckets of us versus them
You have the opportunity to make the same statement against some of this ridiculous statements made by Maggot, CrapnonAmerica, JMWalker, Chas and others.
…but you don’t
“Regular
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:18 pm | Permalink
…
…but you don’t”
If they refer to me as a Republican when I make pro-gun comments I will correct them as I correct you if you refer to me as a Democrat for anti-death penalty comments.
“Regular
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:18 pm | Permalink
…
…but you don’t”
besides, I don’t have a personal fairness doctrine. I don’t have to argue against everything I think is stupid that gets posted on here.
That would certainly be a full time job, and I don’t care to do it.
If you are neither Democrat or Republican, then I didn’t reference you, now did I?
Fair enough.
I guess I misread you comment Regular.
Brian also claims to be a fiscal conservative
(snicker)
Not flaming or saying bad about him. But I don’t believe you can support the crazy spending going on and still call yourself conservative.
Which is why I was against Bush spending and the democrats in congress who voted AYE AYE.
“American_Way
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:27 pm | Permalink
…But I don’t believe you can support the crazy spending going on and still call yourself conservative.”
Fortunately for my sanity, I do not support any of the bailout bills. I also did not support spending as much as we did in Iraq. And I support reducing the size of government and thus its cost.
Yes. In fact, I believe there was a thread pretty much dedicated to it.
========================
Don’t recall the thread JM.
I just ain’t buying into the majority of Kansans believe the UNIVERSE is 8000 years old.
After all, this isn’t Kentucky.
“ANTI
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:31 pm | Permalink
…I just ain’t buying into the majority of Kansans believe the UNIVERSE is 8000 years old.”
There are certainly some folk here in KS that believe that, but not the majority.
There are certainly some folk here in KS that believe that, but not the majority.
===========
Well sure, that I can believe.
They are just disproportionately sampled in the media. Just like trailer-park dwellers are disproportionately sampled in the media after tornados.
#
brian_nuevo
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:34 pm | Permalink
They are just disproportionately sampled in the media. Just like trailer-park dwellers are disproportionately sampled in the media after tornados.
====================
They do find the dumbest, most back-woods sumb*tch around to interview!
#
American_Way
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:13 pm | Permalink
Regular, a review of the last few days of posts reveals your statement to be very true. Republicans have posted about the issues, events, and provided factual info and links.
Democrats, to include Walker, have reverted to name-calling, and negatives about posters. But little of substance.
Almost like the old days when Republicans ruled. So maybe it’s more indicative of the clientele?
============================================
When you decide to post something of substance, I’ll be more than happy to respond in kind. I tried that with the assault weapons on the open thread, but was called everything but by your republican posters.
I posted my beliefs on capital punishment as it applies to Christian beliefs, and I get this nonsense.
For instance: Justify capital punishment aka, the death penalty, and God’s biblical reference of, “Vengeance is Mine.”
When I read the loved ones of the victims of capital crimes, I read, “They deserve to be executed. I wont talk to his parents until he’s executed.” And I compare it to the families of the Amish children killed by the nut case. They preyed with the killers family, and for the killer. I don’t get that kind of honesty and forgiveness from any Christian posting on this blog.
And, yes, I believe the majority of Kansans think the universe is around 8000 years old, and that goes right to the heart of the discussion, as it makes them firm believers in the bible as the written word of God, and God’s biblical reference of, “Vengeance is Mine.”
That, in my humble opinion, makes any Christians calling for the death penalty hypocrites. So if you want to bash me for believing that, be my guest. But don’t say Liberals never bring anything to the party. Go back and check reg’s posts, or roach’s copy/paste.
I don’t deny pulling chains, but there are very few posters here who can claim otherwise, yourself included.
So what is the point of the flood of posts dealing with the age of earth?
Is there a certain poster that is meant to ignite?
I don’t see Christians as an issue. Maybe I’m missing it.
And I compare it to the families of the Amish children killed by the nut case. They preyed with the killers family, and for the killer. I don’t get that kind of honesty and forgiveness from any Christian posting on this blog.
====================
I can honestly say I don’t think I would have the strength the Amish did in that matter. I am human and have flaws and I believe in Jesus. What the Amish did in that case was admirable beyond belief.
I for hard life without parole if they’re convicted and want the death penalty. They don’t deserve what they want.
I dont understand the whole the killers families are victims too nonsense that sometimes comes up in cases. I have no probelm with fact that the citzens of ark city are shunning Justin Thurbers family or that their home phone has been published on the web, or that Dennis Rader’s mothers home was vandalized. If these scumbags would have done a better job raising thier kids they wouldnt be on Death row or in prison till they die
“TomPaine
Posted February 26, 2009 at 6:06 pm | Permalink
…If these scumbags would have done a better job raising thier kids they wouldnt be on Death row or in prison till they die”
That is just plain incorrect.
Hopefully you are being facetious. I pity you if that is really how you think.
#
American_Way
Posted February 26, 2009 at 5:41 pm | Permalink
So what is the point of the flood of posts dealing with the age of earth?
Is there a certain poster that is meant to ignite?
I don’t see Christians as an issue. Maybe I’m missing it.
==========================================
I do. When it is Christians supporting the death penalty, such as Nathan, Then in my opinion hypocrisy come into play.
#
ANTI
I can honestly say I don’t think I would have the strength the Amish did in that matter. I am human and have flaws and I believe in Jesus. What the Amish did in that case was admirable beyond belief.
=========================================
Exactly. So why is it so difficult to understand forgiveness is what Jesus preached all His life? And why is it so difficult to strive for living such a life? When one asks the question, “What would Jesus do,” I expect He would be against the death penalty.
“JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 6:13 pm | Permalink
…When it is Christians supporting the death penalty, such as Nathan, Then in my opinion hypocrisy come into play.”
I think one can reconcile a Christian faith with supporting the death penalty.
However, I do think those who are staunch pro-lifers but support the death penalty are hypocrites. I do not see how those two things can go together.
(inherent in my statement is the fact that not all Christians are staunch pro-lifers)
I do think those who are staunch pro-lifers but support the death penalty are hypocrites.
===================
I don’t.
Saving-
Innocent Life vs. Innocent Life takers
Not the same thing.
I don’t understand how you can compare a new life to a life that has destroyed others and their families lives.
Considering Jesus was a victim of the Death penalty he would probably be against it, didn’t save someone from that punishment also? I’m not Jesus and not that forgiving and their are plenty of scumbags who probably should be executed hell I would waive the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment in some cases.
I think some of the above posts support my belief that revenge trumps justice when the death penalty is discussed.
#
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 6:51 pm | Permalink
I think some of the above posts support my belief that revenge trumps justice when the death penalty is discussed.
———————————-
Only the simple minded would classify justice as revenge.
“What would Jesus do,”
Who cares what Jesus would or wouldn’t do? The guy is dead. He expects us to live our own lives.
The death penalty isn’t about Christianity. It’s about the law of the land.
Render unto Caesar sorta thing. Ditto abortion.
#
Regular
Posted February 26, 2009 at 7:06 pm | .
———————————-
Only the simple minded would classify justice as revenge.
=======================================
Since when does it take the death penalty to qualify justice? It seems to me it takes a simpler mind say kill em and let God sort em out. Because in my mind, that is what the death penalty entails.
Or read the comments by those who have had loved ones murdered, then tell me revenge isn’t the motive.
#
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 7:25 pm | Permalink
#
Regular
Posted February 26, 2009 at 7:06 pm | .
———————————-
Only the simple minded would classify justice as revenge.
=======================================
Since when does it take the death penalty to qualify justice? It seems to me it takes a simpler mind say kill em and let God sort em out. Because in my mind, that is what the death penalty entails.
Or read the comments by those who have had loved ones murdered, then tell me revenge isn’t the motive.
=======================
Nope, you’re thinking of redistributed justice, the old ‘eye for an eye’ demonstration of battlefields and perhaps vigilantes – although the vigilante is outside of law.
What we are talking about is a capital crime of first degree, premeditated murder. It is where the accused are given their legal rights, they are defended, the case is set before a court elected/appointed by the people and judgment is meted out by a jury of his/her peers or a judge.
We are talking about heinous crimes, accomplished for purpose of evil intent and malice aforethought where the accused set forth in deliberately taking the life of someone or someone(s).
Your equating justice to revenge is an indictment of the justice system saying judges are unable to judge, lawyers are unable to try cases and jurors are unable to decide after weighing the evidence that a heinous crime of murder was committed with premeditation and malice.
Your indictment of the justice system is equivalent to undisciplined social vigilantism. That is, you say it is so, there it must be according to your rules. Your rules are self-appointed righteousness, without the benefit of wise counsel and completely facts based in evidence as it pertains to a particular case.
read the comments by those who have had loved ones murdered, then tell me revenge isn’t the motive
As I said, simple minded.
Perhaps the murdered victims are thinking of revenge. But we live in a society that prevents them from taking action after the fact without a fair trial and judgment.
This society doesn’t allow redistributed justice to take place in capital murder cases. We have hearings, trials and deliberations weighing evidence with consideration under the law.
If your only argument is revenge, then you lose as I already pointed out that revenge is not allowed in our society. Justice prevails and is meted out with all due solemn works of those involved.
To trivialize the efforts of many citizens in the process is short-sighted and simple minded.
the murdered victims = the murdered victims’ family
#
American_Way
Posted February 26, 2009 at 7:16 pm | Permalink
“What would Jesus do,”
Who cares what Jesus would or wouldn’t do? The guy is dead. He expects us to live our own lives.
The death penalty isn’t about Christianity. It’s about the law of the land.
Render unto Caesar sorta thing. Ditto abortion.
=======================================
That’s a cop out amway. If you’re a true Christian, then you are supposed to live your life as Jesus would. That’s the law of God, and supersedes the law of the land. Why else would one call those who died supporting their faith be called martyrs? Except according to reg, they would be called simple minded.
“Your equating justice to revenge is an indictment of the justice system saying judges are unable to judge, lawyers are unable to try cases and jurors are unable to decide after weighing the evidence that a heinous crime of murder was committed with premeditation and malice.”
No , I do not believe that: There is life in prison with no possibility of parole. I fully understand the justice system, and there is nothing simple minded about what I know and believe.
As I stated earlier, it is my opinion revenge is the basic motive for the death penalty, and I’ll stick by that. If justice was the motive, there would be no death penalty. If you want to call that simple minded, be my guest. As you are well aware, your opinion means very little to me: never has, never will.
#
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 8:00 pm | Permalink
“Your equating justice to revenge is an indictment of the justice system saying judges are unable to judge, lawyers are unable to try cases and jurors are unable to decide after weighing the evidence that a heinous crime of murder was committed with premeditation and malice.”
No , I do not believe that: There is life in prison with no possibility of parole. I fully understand the justice system, and there is nothing simple minded about what I know and believe.
As I stated earlier, it is my opinion revenge is the basic motive for the death penalty, and I’ll stick by that. If justice was the motive, there would be no death penalty. If you want to call that simple minded, be my guest. As you are well aware, your opinion means very little to me: never has, never will.
==========================
Your making your decision outside of a system, standing solitary on untested grounds.
It means that you are indicting society without a trial.
You’re just as guilty as those who you accuse of taking ‘revenge.’
That is, you are saying no matter what any one else says or thinks, you will make your decision unilaterally without compromise and of course, the ever popular “you don’t matter” thinking.
Good luck on your desert island.
There are many of us on that ‘desert island.’ I too find the death penalty unacceptable. I don’t think resorting to taking another life will ever have a positive affect. It is enacting revenge and I don’t see redemption in that. We should all strive for the Amish attitude of forgiveness as Jesus taught.
lindainks55
Posted February 26, 2009 at 8:23 pm | Permalink
There are many of us on that ‘desert island.’ I too find the death penalty unacceptable. I don’t think resorting to taking another life will ever have a positive affect.
———————
Heh
I don’t think there was any intent to make executions a positive effect. :)
Thank you, Linda. Another sound mind in a sea of revenge.
But do tell me reg: Has the death penalty ever stopped another from killing?
Hmmm.
It cost taxpayers 50% to execute a convict than to lock him up and throw away the key.
Every executed criminal obviously wasn’t worried about the death penalty when committing the crime. The penalty doesn’t deter crime.
There’s no way to correct or compensate for unjust executions.
We don’t apply “eye for an eye” rationale for any other crime.
I always admired Kansas when it applied the Hard 40 as its maximum penalty. Fort solid years of hard time before you’re even considered for parole. As we’ve seen with, say, Charlie Manson the Parole Board ain’t likely to release him. BTK would be what? 80-something after 40 years? “Sorry, Dennis. You need to think about it some more.”
I think “without the possibility of parole” is a law written for dramatic effect. Sounds too much like that old Merle Haggard song.
It was odd a few years ago when Shrub executed Karla Faye Tucker over the objections of Pat Robertson. I don’t think the good people of Texas would’ve let even septuagenarian Karla move into the trailer next door. But as heinous as the axe-murderer was, it seems she tried to make the most of her life and the best of her religious conversion.
And doesn’t the word “penitence” share the whole etymology of the word “penitentiary?” Isn’t penitence a worthy value; religious even?
I’m no bleeding heart, really.
If it were up to me I’d be the only person to decide who lives or dies. I’d take Manson out and shoot him in the street like the rabid dog he is. I’d really apply “an eye for an eye” to the Carr brothers and make sure they got raped first. No, “Regular,” you can’t volunteer for that duty. Sorry to disappoint.
But there are times in the course of civilization when ya gotta embrace, y’know, “civilization.” And killing people as an example of how much we hate killing people seems pretty damned primitive.
Not that such a concept might appeal to CONs, what with their ground-calloused knuckles.
#
JMWalker
Posted February 26, 2009 at 8:36 pm | Permalink
But do tell me reg: Has the death penalty ever stopped another from killing?
======================================
Every time a convicted murderer is executed, another killing is potentially prevented.
I believe there are statistics gathered on the death penalty deterrent. But you’ll have to do that homework yourself, too late for me to browse the Web on something already established as a fact. :)
…What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument _ whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061100406.html
100% of Dead people, never Live again.
100% of Homosexuals are gay.
100% of Gasoline fueled automobiles, burn petrol.
100% of the facts I’ve stated are facts.
If you have six cats, with a total of 12 bells on them, and all the cats except one has an equal number of bells on them, and the last cat has four bells, then how many cats are there altogether if you take away all the bells?
When a person maliciously and intentionally robs someone else of their life, then they should pay for it with their own. That’s just fair.
There are many examples of convicted murderers who get paroled and then kill again.
I don’t necessarily disagree with the death penalty. Though I DO think it is more a tool of revenge than justice.
I just do not trust our Justice system. I would rather see a thousand guilty go free before one innocent is punished.
If Farmer John owns five baby Calves that he wants to sell as veal, and he kills four of them, how many Calves does he now own?
“Though I DO think it is more a tool of revenge than justice.”
What’s not just about making someone who intentionally takes a life pay for it with their own?
Life is only valuble when the cost of taking it is the ultimate price of giving up one’s own.
I think the death penalty is fine, only if they have enough evidence to prove guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If someone is sought guilty by a jury without substantial physical or tangible evidence then those cases should be exempt from the death penalty, just for the fact that their sentence could be a mistake and that their innocent.
I didn’t say the death penalty is not just. I said I don’t trust the Justice system.
But it must be said that the death penalty does no more than give a sense of retribution and justice to friends and family of a murder victim. I am not diminishing that. I just do not want it to be the driving factor in Justice.
The Death Penalty basically is a legal tool for revenge. Ethically, theirs no good morals in murdering a murderer. It’s not justice, it’s revenge. The justice is providing a fair trial, then finding them guilty, and sentencing them to prison for life. I don’t have a problem with the death penalty, I do think some people deserve it, but I’m still going to acknowledge that it’s a civilized act of revenge. I can say this though, the way prisoners are killed by lethal injection, have an easier death than dogs that get put down in an animal shelter. The death row inmate gets anesthetized first before the lethal medication is injected, but they don’t do that to the dogs, because it cost too much money.
Mixed feelings on this. A factor in favor of the death penalty is safety of prison guards and other prisoners. Do we really need losers like the Carr brothers where they can kill people with nothing more to lose?
Whats wrong with revenge?
“Justice? They’ve forgotten about justice. They want revenge. Revenge! The most worthless of causes.”
King Arthur “Camelot”
And again, I am not against the death penalty. But it must NEVER be emotionally driven.
BTH, wouldnt having the Carr brothers thinning out the prison population be a good thing? plus theirs prison “justice” a la what happened to Dahmer or Father Gaygun,
Well depending on the situation, revenge might incite more violence. Usually not the case with death penalties, but revenge has incited endless violence, like between Palestine and Israel as an example.
BJ, how about we call it Punishment instead of Revenge, a la Frank Castle
Personally, I believe we should abolish the death penalty, you know join the civilized world that we say we are a part of.
Until the inequalities within the justice system are fixed, there will never be a fair application of the death penalty.
Many people who complain about the costs of appeals, but how many innocent people would have been executed if not for the appeals process that we have? The Innocence Project alone has freed around 200 death row inmates. Constantly there are allegations of ineffectual counsel, unfair actions by police and prosecutors, Governors decide to deny the accused access to DNA testing (Bush did this several times as Governor), so how can you argue that this is in any way justice?
*Correction the number from the Innocents project was all inmates, not just death row.
According to the Death Penalty Information Center approximately 130 death row inmates have won post conviction release due to evidence of innocence since 1973.
Seems like the key Capital Punishment issue comes down to a question of revenge.
“What’s wrong with revenge?” is probably the most honest and salient point of the discussion.
Yeah. I’d want revenge.
And if Dennis Rader had bound, tortured, and killed one of my loved ones I’d want to rip his beating heart out of his chest and show it to him in his last moments before falling into Hell.
But somehow I think government shouldn’t be given the power to basically do the same.
Somehow I expect government and society and civilization in general to be a tad more rational than me left with my rage.
Then let the families of the victims carry out the execution..I’d gladly do it if someone killed one of my kids or grandkids. I think Dennis Rader and the Carr brothers deserve to die.
Take a life, then lose your own.
I remind again of our woefully inept criminal justice system.
Dennis Rader (BTK) was no criminal mastermind. He was a sick, stupid pervert. But he managed to terrorize a city for almost three decades before being captured. Near to the time of his capture, an innocent man was accused and had his life destroyed by people motivated more by emotion than reason.