“When the GOP talks, nobody should listen,” columnist Bob Herbert wrote. “Republicans have argued, with the collaboration of much of the media, that they could radically cut taxes while simultaneously balancing the federal budget, when, in fact, big income-tax cuts inevitably lead to big budget deficits. We listened to the GOP and what do we have now? A trillion-dollar-plus deficit and an economy in shambles. This is the party that preached fiscal discipline and then cut taxes in time of war. This is the party that still wants to put the torch to Social Security and Medicare. This is a party that, given a choice between Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan, would choose Ronald Reagan in a heartbeat.”
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218 Comments
It’s because they’re really really, REALLY! good liars.
Phillip: What ever happened to doing what’s good for America?
Republicans haven’t done good for America in a long, long time.
In the good ol’ days, the horse thieves known as Republicans would have been strung up and left for the buzzards to pick their bones.
It’s not too late to bring Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the thieves to justice.
Bob Herbert, and you too Philip, you are both idiots. Is this what passes for critical thought around here? schitt.
Cutting taxes in the past has increased revenue in the past. Look at the increase in Federal Revenue following major tax cuts by Bush, Reagan, and Kennedy.(and one other who escapes me) It happens every time.
Spending on the other hand occurs completely independently from cutting taxes. The two have NOTHING TO DO WITH ONE ANOTHER. Bush and the Republicans spent money like drunken Democrats. Stupid but they did. That has nothing to do with cutting taxes. Complicated for some of you, I know.
Reagan had to bargain away a bunch of domestic spending to get the increases in defense spending he wanted. Had nothing to do with cutting taxes.
Again, and I know it’s tough for some of you, LOOK AT THE INCREASE IN REVENUE FOLLOWING MAJOR TAX CUTS!!! And try not to spend too much.
Heckler, if what you say is true…then if the government COMPLETELY eliminated ALL taxes, it’s revenue would skyrocket.
Who’s the idiot?
Maybe we wouldn’t be in the shape we’re in if we hadn’t invaded a country that was no threat to us and try to turn it into something it’ll never be. Maybe we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in if the Republicans hadn’t fought regulation in the banking industry every chance they got. There are a lot of reasons why we’re where we are.
We could go on all day playing the blame game..but maybe it’s time to work toward solutions, rather than who’s at fault for this mess.
Solutions anyone?
The democrats are the party that, if given a choice between the writings of Bob Herbert and the NY Times and the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible would choose Herbert and the Times in a heartbeat.
mxyzptlk
“Heckler, if what you say is true…then if the government COMPLETELY eliminated ALL taxes, it’s revenue would skyrocket.
Who’s the idiot?”
You are mxyz. You are the one spouting rediculous B.S. I simply stated facts that are backed up by historical data. You? Not so much.
sp ridiculous
Here we go again.
It wasn’t the tax cuts, it was the spending.
Even Herbert should be smart enough to see that.
“The democrats are the party that, if given a choice between the writings of Bob Herbert and the NY Times and the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible would choose Herbert and the Times in a heartbeat.”
So what would Jesus do about the economy? LOL!
I’m perfectly fine with this thread lead in. Captures the essence of the liberals.
Republicans voted NO, they stood their ground for what the party needs to return to. Fiscal conservatism. They have strayed.
And I wonder what the relevance is of this line:
“This is a party that, given a choice between Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan, would choose Ronald Reagan in a heartbeat.”
It can only mean the author is already seeing Obama as A. Lincoln and the man has been in office less than two weeks!
Keep it up libs.
Rather than reply with logic..Heckler (typical Republican) resorts to personal attacks.
Mary I have set the record straight on this lie before. Yet you continue to repeat it.
Republicans hadn’t fought regulation in the banking industry every chance they got. There are a lot of reasons why we’re where we are.
And in the same breath continues……
We could go on all day playing the blame game..
So why do you?
Do you want to retract,or should I fill the thread with past posts documenting both sides contributed?
mxyz
“Rather than reply with logic..Heckler (typical Republican) resorts to personal attacks.”
Stupidity needs to be called out. It’s for your own good. Think of it as a learning experience.
“Spending on the other hand occurs completely independently from cutting taxes. The two have NOTHING TO DO WITH ONE ANOTHER.”
Good post Heckler
Why did the Republicans get beat so badly in the elections of 2006 and 2008? Because they started spending like drunken sailors and liberal Democrats. It is time the Republicans take a stand against this runaway spending and show some backbone against the Messiah. The only way this country will prosper is if a loyal and dedicated opposition stands up to the socialist agenda being pushed by the Messiah and his minions in Congress.
If you give money to people who do not work, who choose to be lazy and sit on their rear ends, that is WELFARE. I don’t work and pay taxes to support leeches who CHOOSE not to work, who CHOOSE to suck off the federal teat. Most of the $900 billion or whatever the final total will be in this bill is going to WELFARE programs to support the leeches who don’t work. The redistribution of wealth is alive and well.
Brownlee’s hatred for the GOP knows no bounds, as does the hatred of people like Maggotpunk, Bluejay, Mary_Caruso and the other liberal drones who have nothing better to do than post on this site.
It wasn’t the tax cuts, it was the spending.
Actually, it was neither. Rather, it was the inevitable result of a theft-based finance economy. It would have happened under Reagan, too, had the opposition party not controlled the House.
As it was, we got the bubble effect you predictably see when you pour trillions of borrowed cash into the economy (i.e. defense spending) but with nothing produced that creates real benefits at home. For quite a time in the 80s, the defense industry was the place to go, even for software developers.
So the paper economy flew under Reagan, until it crashed, and we found ourselves paying a half a trillion to bail out the S&Ls, an extra $2 trillion in debt (what was someone saying about fiscal discipline?).
We got off easy.
Six trillion dollars later, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the patterns.
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges04.png
But it takes a creative ideologue to deny, dismiss, and rationalize them away, and we have plenty of those.
Tax CUTS increase government revenue! Facts are facts. Sorry, libs, you’re wrong AGAIN.
“In each of the last three cuts in marginal tax rates, revenues received by the U.S. Treasury have increased. Coolidge cut tax rates in the 1920s, Kennedy cut marginal tax rates in the 1960s, and Reagan cut them in the 1980s.
Under Coolidge, marginal tax rates were cut from the top rate of 73% to 24%. The economy rewarded this policy by expanding 59% from 1921 to 1929. Revenues received by the federal treasury increased from $719 million in 1921 to more than $1.1 billion 1929. That’s a 61% increase (there was zero inflation in this period). Growth averaged more than six percent annually. We are currently growing at 2.5%.
Under Kennedy, marginal tax rates were cut from a top rate of 91% to 70%. In real dollar terms, the economy grew by 42%, an average of 5 percent a year from 1961 to 1965. Tax revenue to the U.S. Treasury increased by 62%. Adjusted for inflation, they rose by one-third.
Under Reagan, marginal tax rates were cut from a top of 70% to 28%. Revenues (from all taxes) to the U.S. Treasury nearly doubled. According to the Budget of the U.S. Government, FY 1997, Office of Management and Budget. Revenues increased from roughly $500 billion in 1980 to $1.1 trillion in 1990.
In each case, the personal income taxes paid by “the rich” increased when their tax rates were cut.”
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=676
Why would anyone listen to Republicans? Because they look at facts, not feelings.
We have an economy of predators and prey. Just how many pay day loan offices does Salina need, for example, or rent-to-own furniture stores? All of this is made possible by borrowed money since fewer and fewer produce anything. There is only one solution. Manufacture what we need here or don’t buy it. But that would mean former payday loan officers working for $10 an hour in shoe facories.
What the Republicans made was basically an economy without workers. Labor always troubled them, so they simply used the Chinese to make what they sold. Now no one can afford to buy even what the Chinese make. Ergo: we have to rebuild from the base, and sack the predators.
We need to stop giving Wall Street bankers money to pay their officers bonuses with. Buy up the bad-loan houses, leave them holding the bag for the credit card debt they created. Make them work through the four or five million cars they’re going to have to repossess. The houses will eventually regain at least some value, and would be so useful in so many ways.
And we need to fill a whole lot of prisons with ex-CEOs, and Bush adminstration officials.
#
Rage
Posted January 29, 2009 at 7:36 am | Permalink
But it takes a creative ideologue to deny, dismiss, and rationalize them away, and we have plenty of those.
========================================================
Ain’t it the truth. But what we don’t have are any of them offering any suggestions of their own. It’s as if the Republicans think their deny, dismiss, and rationalization is enough to get them through this mess Bush created.
I really would like to hear some constructive ideas from the other side. Any of you care to take me up on that? Amway? ICTisInferior? Nathan? Hank? Heckler? Fleetwood? I got all day.
Tax CUTS increase government revenue! Facts are facts. Sorry, libs, you’re wrong AGAIN.
Then why did receipts dropped by 17 billion dollars in fiscal year 1983, the second year of the Kemp-Roth tax cuts?
http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publications/erp/page/6660/download/46214/6660_ERP.pdf
The Laffer curve has been discussed to death in this forum, so I’m not going to further indulge you.
Republicans thought they could be “compassionate conservatives”. As we soon realized, this meant spending like Democrats while cutting taxes like Republicans. It is fiscally irresponsible.
Democrats pretended to be outraged over the deficit during the campaign but the newly elected President Obama has already acknowledged that he has no plans to cut it down anytime soon.
The Democrats are in control so why are they whining that the Democrats might be listening to the GOP? Don’t the Democrats have confidence that their ideology of raising taxes and continuing to spend will work?
“You are mxyz. You are the one spouting rediculous B.S. I simply stated facts that are backed up by historical data. You? Not so much.”—Heckler
and then,
“Rather than reply with logic..Heckler (typical Republican) resorts to personal attacks.”—myxz the misfit
And why not, it’s completely true and accurate.
‘misfit’, your comments are always totally irrelevant.
“…so why are they whining that the Democrats might be listening to the GOP? Don’t the Democrats have confidence that their ideology of raising taxes and continuing to spend will work?”
I have an answer!
Democrats want the illusion of Republican support so that when their taxing and spending policies don’t work, they can spread the blame around.
If they really thought that they were right, they would not listen to Republicans whatsoever.
‘misfit’, your comments are always totally irrelevant.
Which is why the Blog Bigot Bawks pays attention to everything “we” write.
Dance poodle boy dance!
This year, taxpayers will receive an Economic Stimulus Payment. This is a very exciting new program that I will explain using the Q and A format:
Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.
Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.
Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. Only a smidgen.
Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set, thus stimulating the economy.
Q. But isn’t that stimulating the economy of China?
A. Shut up!
Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the US economy by spending your stimulus check wisely:
If you spend that money at Wal-Mart, all the money will go to China.
If you spend it on gasoline it will go to the Arabs.
If you purchase a computer it will go to India.
If you purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico , Honduras , and Guatemala (unless you buy organic).
If you buy a car it will go to Japan.
If you purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan.
And none of it will help the American economy.
We need to keep that money here in America. You can keep the money in America by spending it at yard sales, going to a baseball game, or spend it on beer (domestic ONLY), or tattoos, since those are the only businesses still in the US.
mxyz’s reply is a good example of his/her irrelevance.
Simply nothing ever there any value.
Got any more unattributed cut-and-pastes for us, Boxy?
P.S. Ya know, the funny thing is that Boxlock’s post actually supports the liberal view.
Thinking things over, Box?
CLEARLY, the cons did not hear the voice of America this last November. They need to sit down and shudduup. The results of all the wealth accumulating to the few are coming home. The scythe is gonna swing wide on the “tall poppies” now. “Bout time!
A trillion-dollar-plus deficit….
================
And the Dems are adding another Trillion within a few days.
Boxlock20
Posted January 29, 2009 at 8:14 am | Permalink
mxyz’s reply is a good example of his/her irrelevance.
Simply nothing ever there any value.
________________________________
Keep dancing poodle boy…you just can’t resist taking in my words of wisdom.
No BlueJay…let the CONS speak (whhhhiiiinnnneeee)
When they do it is the voice of losers.
Still waiting for constructive suggestions from the Republicans here . . . .
“Why would anyone listen to the GOP?”
Author Thomas Frank outlines it brilliantly in “What’s the Matter With Kansas?” and “The Wrecking Crew, How Conservatives Rule”.
Let’s think to history for a moment. Did we have such economic crisis before Ronald Reagan SLASHED the top marginal tax rates? No. How about before Kennedy did the same thing? Again, overall, folks managed to do pretty well. SO, while many HAVE listened for more than thirty years to the GOP, clearly they and we are not the better for it.
Brownlee is again proving the troll he is. I suggest to let the libs have their totalitarian rants and ignore them.
I’m not going to waste my time anymore with this thread.
“Dance poodles dance”.
JMWalker
Posted January 29, 2009 at 8:29 am | Permalink
Still waiting for constructive suggestions from the Republicans here . . . .
________________________
I guess donndublin is all mouth and no substance.
Gave up in less than a New York minute.
BeeJay
“They need to sit down and shudduup”
Tell it to BeeHo. He’s the one who desperately wanted Republicans on board so the blame could be spread around if this monstrosity goes south. He knows that if it doesn’t work as advertised his is a one term Presidency.
It appears once again, BrownLib is serving up large chunks of Partisan Cheese and Whine to duh Libs.
So what else is new…
“Let’s think to history for a moment. Did we have such economic crisis before Ronald Reagan SLASHED the top marginal tax rates?”
Yeah. Americans were so enamored with Jimmy Carter, out-of-control inflation and 20% interest rates that they re-elected him in a landslide. And Reagan was booted out of office after one term due to his failed economic policies.
See? It’s easy to rewrite history.
“Got any more unattributed cut-and-pastes for us, Boxy?”—Rage
You certainly take the time to read everyone of them, ha.
There was no author listed anyway.
It’s funny because there is so much truth to it.
The stupid Dims think they can improve the economy by giving peoples OWN money back to them after they take their cut of course.
Good point ‘the_truth_hurts”….completely lost on DimLibs.
All throughout the years the Federalist party has been on the losing side. They were losers when they became the Whig Party, and after Lincoln they were losers when they became the Republican party. They’ll collapse when people wise up and realize there are more important issues than hating gays, and the Republican economic policy is one that has a purpose to destroy the American economy.
Businesses and people in general sure are showing confidence in ‘The ONE’s’ and the DimLibs economic recovery policy approach……NOT!!!
Cessna increases number of job cuts to 4,600
BY MOLLY MCMILLIN, The Wichita Eagle
Cessna Aircraft has dramtically increased the number of jobs it will cut. It now expects to reduce its workforce by 4,600 people, up from the previously announced 2,500 job cuts as customers cancel and defer orders.
The Daily Mail ( UK National Paper) wrote this editorial about Obama on 1/6/2009. (for confirmation, Google “London Daily Mail Obama’s Victory’) Obama’s Victory —
A British view
An editorial from the London Daily Mail
“A victory for the hysterical Oprah Winfrey, the mad racist preacher Jeremiah Wright, the mainstream media who abandoned any sense of objectivity long ago, Europeans who despise
America largely because they depend on her, comics who claim to be dangerous and fearless, but would not dare attack genuinely powerful special interest groups.
A victory for Obama-worshippers everywhere. A victory for the cult of the cult. A man who has done little with his life, but has written about his achievements as if he had found the cure for cancer in between winning a marathon and building a nuclear reactor with his teeth. Victory for style over substance, hyperbole over history, rabble-raising over reality. A victory for Hollywood , the most dysfunctional community in the world. Victory for Streisand, Spielberg, Soros and Sarandon. Victory for those who prefer welfare to will and interference to independence. For those who settle for group think and herd mentality rather than those who fight for individual initiative and the right to be out of step with meager political fashion. Victory for a man who is no friend of freedom. He and his people have already stated that media has to be controlled so as to be balanced, without realizing the extraordinary irony within that statement. Like most liberal zealots, the Obama worshippers constantly speak of Fox and Limbaugh, when the vast bulk of television stations and newspapers are drastically liberal and anti-conservative.
Senior Democrat Chuck Schumer said that just as pornography should be censored, so should talk radio. In other words, one of the few free and open means of popular expression may well be cornered and beaten by bullies who even in triumph cannot tolerate any criticism and opposition. A victory for those who believe the state is better qualified to raise children than the family, for those who prefer teachers’ unions to teaching and for those who are naively convinced that if the West is sufficiently weak towards its enemies, war and terror will dissolve as quickly as the tears on the face of a leftist celebrity. A victory for social democracy even after most of Europe has come to the painful conclusion that social democracy leads to mediocrity, failure, unemployment, inflation, higher taxes and economic stagnation. A victory for intrusive lawyers, banal sentimentalists, social extremists and urban snobs.
Congratulations America !”
Directions to links and sources provided for the invalid ‘Rage’, who seems unable to find anything on his own and whines about it incessently when not given to him.
Boxy, try actually searching the, ya know, Daily Msil.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
The blog won’t let me post a demonstration Google search, so see for yourself.
It ain’t there.
I think a better question is how will the following stimulate the economy?
-$550 billion in new spending, described as thoughtful and carefully targeted priority investments with unprecedented accountability measures built in.
-$275 billion in tax relief ($1,000 tax cut for families, $500 tax cut for individuals through Social Security payroll deductions)
-$ 90 billion for infrastructure
-$ 87 billion Medicaid aid to states
-$ 79 billion school districts/public colleges to prevent cutbacks
-$ 54 billion to encourage energy production from renewable sources
-$ 41 billion for additional school funding ($14 billion for school modernizations and repairs, $13 billion for Title I, $13 billion for IDEA special education funding, $1 billion for education technology)
- 24 billion for “health information technology to prevent medical mistakes, provide better care to patients and introduce cost-saving efficiencies.”
- 16 billion for science/technology ($10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation; $6 billion to expand broadband to rural areas)
- 15 billion to increase Pell grants by $500
-$ 6 billion for the ambiguous “higher education modernization.”
There are many things in this spending that I don’t have issue with necessarily. I just don’t see them as stimulating the economy and creating jobs today.
Regular and boxlock20: Still waiting on those constructive suggestions . . . . . .
Regular and boxlock20: Still waiting on those constructive suggestions . . .
Seconded, and I’d add MrKia to Walker’s challenge. Gotta go, but I’ll check back later.
JMWalker
Posted January 29, 2009 at 9:29 am | Permalink
Regular and boxlock20: Still waiting on those constructive suggestions .
===========================
Read the title of the topic Walker.
get real…
The Latin term is ad valorum – value added. We don’t do that much anymore. The was a time when our economy was based on added value. We took X, added Y and labor and produced Z which had greater value than the sum of it’s parts.
Now we have basically a service based economy. We don’t produce much, we just trade dollars between each other for services rendered. That only works until the bubble burst and services are not in demand. The bubble started leaking years ago and finally burst last year.
Americans used to produce cars, televisions, clothing, steel, textiles, cameras, shoes, furniture and electric trains. Now, other than agriculture, we produce very little.
Raising or lowering taxes will have little effect on the basic issue. We need to repair an economy by returning to system based on added value, not trading dollars.
#
Regular
Posted January 29, 2009 at 9:35 am | Permalink
JMWalker
Posted January 29, 2009 at 9:29 am | Permalink
Regular and boxlock20: Still waiting on those constructive suggestions .
===========================
Read the title of the topic Walker.
get real…
=====================================================
Title of the thread:
Why would anyone listen to the GOP?
Still waiting on constructive suggestions “FROM THE GOP SUPPORTERS” on how to get jobs back and jump start the economy. Come up with that, and I’ll be glad to listen. It doesn’t get any more real than that, regular. Care to dive in?
If I had all the answers I’d be a lawmaker. But here are a few of the core problems that I don’t see being addressed by this package:
-Credit crisis. An individual can’t make a major purchase and business can’t start or expand without the credit markets opening up.
-Remove earmarks that are going to unemployment benefits and figure out a way to get them to employers to keep people employed and bring back on laid off workers (not unlike the $79 billion earmarked for schools districts and public colleges to prevent cutbacks – roll this into the private sector as well.).
Only two ideas but they’d go a long way.
After years of Republican failures on the economy, after years of the Bush tax cuts not increasing revenues even one thin dime…it’s time to do try something different.
Whatever the conservative talking heads want us to believe, the New Deal really did work.
My suggestions Walker? Your folks are in charge, haven’t seen anything except that Obama states thte economy is going to get worse.
——————————————
Restructure how the government monitors investments.
– Have weekly or regular reports to Congress and an appropriate Congressional response.
– Have aggressive, huge fines and felony sentences for anyone even sniffing at the idea of using investors money for any other purpose than what it was intended.
Sack the current plan of Economic recovery
– Help the little guys first, that’s the largest base. Forget the banks, use the money to give to each and every American $2400.00 (the amount suggested by CNN/FOX/ETC to re-build confidence from the bottom up.
Get out of the Bank/Finance/Industry Salvation Plan
– This ain’t gonna work. The same people that horded and abused investments are going to hord and abuse the tax dollars they were given. See the previous suggestion.
No new taxes! Ever, never! – read my lips!
– Any new taxes at this time is a throat cutter and will kill businesses and the average consumer
Close down every U.S. military base overseas.
– Use the savings to re-invest back into the military for a mobile force.
– Use foreign bases on a ‘per lease’ agreement if we need staging areas for operations.
Stop being stupid and letting multi-billion dollar contracts to companies overseas. Re-install the buy American Act.
– The Boeing deal
– The building of Air Force One
– All overseas constructions projects MUST be U.S. companies, no exceptions.
Stop selling our agriculture at dirt cheap prices to overseas consumbers
-The U.S. is the Saudi Arabia of food stuffs. If they want it, make sure they pay a handsome price for it.
Cut the State Department by two-thirds.
-Really, in this day of communications, why do we need concrete fortresses of Ambassadors in every country of the world? Most of these jobs are boondoggles and money sappers.
Put into law a new energy source and method for transportation.
-Make it mandatory that by year 2030, there will be zero internal combustion engines in the U.S.
-Make a public works project to build mass transit. The days of individual car ownership, especially in large metropolitan areas is over. It is stupid to have millions of gas guzzling, oil dripping, mosquito fogging pollution machines covering every square inch of concrete and asphalt highways when public transportation can do it better and at less cost.
Make recycling federal law
-Use the proceeds of recycle goods to fund other projects. The setup for the project would be adaptable by state. i.e. What works in Los Angeles, won’t work in Utah. Make it adaptable.
more later…
I know cosmos will faint from my suggestion with shock from being awed, but as I have written before, I’m a professional environmentalist, not some green-terrorist like cosmos. I deal with reality. :)
Dang, Reg, I actually agree with most of your points.
(Snowballs melting.)
I would add that we need to structure corporate taxes to encourage keeping jobs in America and to lure foreign manufacturer (ala automakers)to relocate here.
I am in agreement with Regular – the age of bipartisanship is upon us!
JM just for you. I have posted most of this before but got no response.
WS is right about the fact that we have become a nations of consumers and not manufacturers. We need to reverse this and one big step would to do away with the imbalance in trade that we currently have. We can’t continue to allow the Chinas and Japans of the world to flood our nation with cheap goods. New tarrifs will help. We will also need to address the cost of mfg goods in the US compared to that of the importers.
We also need to see the aid actually go to the people best able to affect the economy. This would be small manufacturers. Lower the corp rate from 37% to the level countries such as Ireland have at 11%. This is an advantage our corps can’t overcome anytime soon. Have a better business environment for employers, the people who actually create jobs.
Instead of this massive giveaway we are looking at – take a tax holiday for working Americans. If all workers were given 6 months of tax free – fica and fed taxes – this would put lots of money back into the economy and be no more expensive than this proposed handout. It would allow people to catch up on past due house payments, etc..
Increase unemployment payments and offer job training for those whose jobs won’t be coming back. Do proactive things to address the real problems.
Putting money into the infrastructure needs to happen but new money to pork projects such as the Endowment to the Arts at this time is ridiculous. Take out the pork and really address the problems that we have right now.
Mr Kia. Excellent suggestions. However, disagree with the second suggestion in part: The unemployed are mostly laid-off workers now, through no fault of their own. Getting them back to work is going to require business to make really difficult decisions. The laid-off workers are going to require serious help so they don’t add to the financial problems by losing their homes, being unable to pay bills, health care, by food, paying taxes, etc..
The help they receive from government will go a long way in supporting them until the job market opens up. And, unfortunately, that could be a long time. That, in my opinion, is money well spent.
The first bailout was supposed to reopen the credit market: it didn’t. The financial institutions, think BoA, used it to buy up the competition. In other words, zero oversight of taxpayers money. Because of that, businesses like BoA should get zero help from the taxpayer. I think we can agree on that.
The only thing I like about this bailout, and it isn’t much, is there will be transparency, or at least that is what is promised. Supposedly, the Obama administration is going to create a website, oversight.gov, that will let people know exactly what is going where, unlike the last administration that kept all info hidden behind closed doors.
If I had any investments in businesses, like BoA, I would divest all of it, tear up any credit cards, and refuse to do business with any of them. Leave the greedy morons running those companies in an open field, with no one to sell anything to. Nor would I give them one dime of taxpayer money.
I would also make the use of derivatives illegal. They are the main cause of why we are where we are today. Things like credit default swaps were a blatant attempt to bypass current insurance laws. If the financial institutions had followed the laws concerning insurance, they would have had to set enough money aside to cover all the CDO’s and CMO’s and other derivatives on the market, and we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Problem is, we are in this mess, and all the bailout taxpayer funds will do absolutely nothing to help, unless laws are written to force the market to protect the investor from the wolves, instead of the other way around, which is the way the SEC and the FINRA are run today. An excellent piece on this is here: http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2008/dec/10/city-light-1/
Regular,
“Help the little guys first, that’s the largest base. Forget the banks, use the money to give to each and every American $2400.00 (the amount suggested by CNN/FOX/ETC to re-build confidence from the bottom up.”
Do you really and truly mean every American? How is this list obtained?
“Do you really and truly mean every American? How is this list obtained?”
One trillion (the amount of the stimulus package) divided by 300 million (the population of the US) equals $3,333 per person. Send me my families check!
#
lindainks55
Posted January 29, 2009 at 10:35 am | Permalink
Regular,
“Help the little guys first, that’s the largest base. Forget the banks, use the money to give to each and every American $2400.00 (the amount suggested by CNN/FOX/ETC to re-build confidence from the bottom up.”
Do you really and truly mean every American? How is this list obtained?
==============================
From tax lists, social security, medicare etc.
If one is a tax payer or a tax recipient beneficiary, then use those list to distribute income. It would be triggered by SSAN (adults) and it would be metered out to families or those who are head of households.
If your single and live alone, you get a single check.
If you are grandpa and grandma, raising your grandchildren, it goes to grandpa and grandma.
If you are on medicare, drawing social security it goes to you or your trust (in case of mental instability.)
For example, Blue Jay would get $4800. A check for himself and his son combined as a household with Junior as the head.
Agencies or Non-profits are not eligible.
The Republicans have got exactly what they deserved in the last two elections. I was wondering if Americans would ever wake up, and it appears that they finally are doing just that.
While the economic storm was building, the GOP was worried about gay marriage and Terry Schaivo.
If the Democrats can deliver the results that they have promised, the GOP will be a permanent minority party, as they deserve to be.
Oh. My. God.
Heheheh. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Bigotbawks proves why we should NOT listen to republicans. His source?
hee heeheee heee heeeeeeeeeee
Someone needs to tell him that “bbc” doesnt always mean british broadcasting.
This little diatribe comes from…. wait for it…
BASS BOAT CENTRAL!
No kidding. That well known economic truth source.
http://bbcboards.zeroforum.com/zerothread/358924-how-to-spend-your-stimulus-check
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, excellent posts, okobserver and Regular. Amazing we agree on most, if not all, of it. Gracias. What do you know: open, intelligent dialogue. Didn’t even have to pull teeth:-)
What do you all say we create a master plan, including the suggestions here, hash out the differences, and flood both houses with it? It might not do much good, but it sure couldn’t hurt. Flood the web with it, and get outsiders input? A bipartisan effort, when so many millions are out of work, might just catch on. I got any takers on it? I’m one of the laid-off, so I got all the time in the world, and we do have some really sharp people posting here. What’s going on in Washington now isn’t going to work, and this government is supposed to be by the people and for the people, so let’s make it so.
Hee hee heeeeeee…..
Part of bigotbawks’ humor, er, words of wisdom, also comes from the appropriately named TALKING POINTS MEMO in a piece authored by… wait for it…. DAVE BARRY!!!!!!
Hee hee hee heeeeee!
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/dave-barry-on-the-economic-sti.php
Now I like Dave Barry and all, but….
When we are in this “siht” hole of an economic situation, the repukes, as evidenced by bigotbawks, post from HUMOR sites as their answer?
heheheh… HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH.
EXACTLY why no one should listen to them on economics. They are a joke!
Hell, Walker, no wonder you cant get a serious answer out of them. They got their Ph.D’s in economics from Clown School!
Where is fleetie to whine about Du or Huffpo in light of his precious repuke buddies posting from humor sites on a serious subject?
From the department of “telling cons what to think”!
I guess I’d rather have them believe Dave Barry than Newt, though. Better for the country.
JM I am retired so have time when the grandkids don’t have to be taken to the dentist or elsewhere. I will work with you however I can. Just let me know.
Where is fleetie to whine about Du or Huffpo in light of his precious repuke buddies posting from humor sites on a serious subject?
From the department of “telling cons what to think”!
I guess I’d rather have them believe Dave Barry than Newt, though. Better for the country.
Where is fleetie to whine about Du or Huffpo in light of his precious repuke buddies posting from humor sites on a serious subject?
From the department of “telling cons what to think”!
I guess I’d rather have them believe Dave Barry than Newt, though. Better for the country.
Actually, kfg, I have gotten some excellent suggestions, from none other than okobserver, amway and regular. Care to join in?
#
okobserver
Posted January 29, 2009 at 10:53 am | Permalink
JM I am retired so have time when the grandkids don’t have to be taken to the dentist or elsewhere. I will work with you however I can. Just let me know.
========================================================
We can do it in this open thread. Separate the wheat from the chaff, and go from there. I don’t want to do it via email; I want to do it in a completely open forum. Maybe the Eagle can open a specific thread for it? Gotta start someplace.
Wow, I have no idea why that posted three times. Sorry.
No Walker, I dont care to join in with those folks.
Ever.
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 29, 2009 at 10:49 am | Permalink
Hee hee heeeeeee…..
Part of bigotbawks’ humor, er, words of wisdom, also comes from the appropriately named TALKING POINTS MEMO in a piece authored by… wait for it…. DAVE BARRY!!!!!!
Hee hee hee heeeeee!
—————–
bigotbawks (8:12 am) copy/pasted the same Dave Barry and other source to another thread, a few days ago.
Yup, Kgrrl. The Weblog double posted something I wrote yesterday.
This website they’ve got is pieced together with baling twine and chewing gum. Sometimes, it’s so lagg-y, I just web-surf somewhere else.
Sorry, the phone rang. My Mother is one of the many without power in states to the east, and for her that means without water too. She is an amazing woman and her glass seems not just ‘half full’ even under the circumstances but getting fuller. I feel better now that I see she will make any circumstance work out. ;-)
Regular, “From tax lists, social security, medicare etc.”
So would we use the list I read about in this morning’s paper, “Point in Time Count of Homeless Persons”?
JM encourage everyone you know to write, call, email their senators right away with these ideas. This will help put the money in the hands of those who need it now, the layed off, the unemployed, untrained, etc..
I have had good results when communicating with Brownback. He always answers. He changed his position of the immigration amnesty bill because of the number of communications he received. Roberts doesn’ respond but I suspect he is also paying attention to the number of constituents he hears from.
This bill will go through the senate quickly but the money won’t really hit the street until 2010. As you know we need this help now.
I am using regs suggestions and putting it together with some others others I have heard to send out to our senators right now.
Your idea for a grass roots effort is a good one. If we get loud enough someone will hear us.
The Wichita Eagle ran an article by Bob Herbert?
Shazaam! Sgt. Carter!
The times really are a-changing . . .
What is this? Liberal Hypocrisy week?
You have a thread attacking the GOP for cutting taxes and running a deficit during war.
Yet, you just voted for a President who said he was going to cut taxes and now wants to run deficit spending.
How much more absurd can you liberals get?
Listen to OKO: “This will help put the money in the hands of those who need it now, the layed off, the unemployed, untrained, etc..”
Shoot, Oko, haven’t you figured out by now that the only Democrats help people like that.
Asking RepubliCONs to help people who are down and out is like asking Dick Cheney to voluntarily pay more taxes . . .
CapnAmerica,
No, Republicans help people with their own money on their own time.
You liberals want to take other peoples money to do your charity for you.
Linda while I have empathy for the homeless after working with them for some time I know that a large number of them are homeless because that is the lifestyle they have chosen. We have ministries in Wichita that try to reach the ones who are there by circumstances. They are established in an apartment, given some furniture, clothes and food. Jobs are found for them when they are available. This is getting harder.
Right now we have so many layed off workers and those who have been let go because of the slow economy that the homeless aren’t today’s problem. Our goal should be to help reemploy these workers. Retrain them if necessary. Work to entice new manufacturing to come to our country. Stop from the top down buying cheaper and start buying local.
As a nation if we are healthy we can continue to help the less fortunate. Without healing our own economy we can’t help anyone.
#
Cheney to voluntarily pay more taxes . . .
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 29, 2009 at 11:17 am | Permalink
CapnAmerica,
No, Republicans help people with their own money on their own time.
You liberals want to take other peoples money to do your charity for you.
===================================================
Both of you care to join in a bipartisan effort to hash out differences, make constructive suggestions, and get it out to our reps? I would really like to see both Conservatives and Liberals on this one. We are in a serious mess, and the b itch and moan forum sure isn’t going to accomplish anything.
#
lindainks55
Posted January 29, 2009 at 11:09 am | Permalink
Sorry, the phone rang. My Mother is one of the many without power in states to the east, and for her that means without water too. She is an amazing woman and her glass seems not just ‘half full’ even under the circumstances but getting fuller. I feel better now that I see she will make any circumstance work out. ;-)
Regular, “From tax lists, social security, medicare etc.”
So would we use the list I read about in this morning’s paper, “Point in Time Count of Homeless Persons”?
————————–
Even in the best case scenario, someone will be left out and not get a check.
The homeless are a special problem, but I imagine if the word got out that that the homeless shelters at XY location were handing out checks with proof of identification (from a fed representative) there would be fewer left out of the picture.
As I said, no matter what you do, people will be forgotten, have died, in the hospital, on the road or out of the country.
Capn you have proven once again how delusional you are. You who once said you didn’t have to worry about money because you made a good choice of parents and at another time said you married money so you had no worries.
Statistics show who helps those in need and it isn’t the liberals. As Nathan said we take it out of our pockets – the liberals take it out of our pockets. Do you see a pattern here?
But I can see Regular that you really did mean every American, and we all acknowledge coming up with that list will leave some out for all the obvious reasons.
I have another question. I’m sure I could google forever and get some info but smart people here probably already know. In rebuilding an electric grid (one of the stimulus initiatives I’ve heard mentioned) would the problems an ice storm brings be reduced?
JM Walker,
It is nice to see that now that you have a liberal in office trying to push his liberal agenda you call for us to be bipartisan…
For the last 8 years and several on this blog you liberals have done little or nothing to be bipartisan.
Listen to Nathan–
With the RepubliCONs controlling all three branches of gov’t for the last six years, firing prosecutors for enforcing the law against CONs, spying on Americans at will, and torturing POW’s, Nathan asks why we weren’t more “bipartisan?”
Like it mattered one way or the other.
CapnAmerica,
What Americans did we spy on?
What prosecutors were fired for the reasons you claim?
And what POW’s were tortured?
How many lies can you tell in one post?
Trying to be bipartisan with the CONS is like trying to be bipartisan with a steam roller.
It’s not “my way or the highway” with those people. It’s “my way or you ARE the highway.”
I’m not officially “back” (plenty of stuff on my desk, thanks), but I posted my take on Walker’s idea about 3 years ago–you don’t compromise your principles; you find where you can agree.
It’s a useful approach, even if only for educational purposes, though I’d still like to punch out more than a few of those power-brokers who got us into this mess.
In rebuilding an electric grid (one of the stimulus initiatives I’ve heard mentioned) would the problems an ice storm brings be reduced?
Silly rabbit, didn’t you know global warming will take care of that?
Here comes Nathan’s “let’s play word games” schtick on cue.
Okay, I’ll bite.
American interrogators used water boarding.
Water boarding is torture
Who says so?
John McCain.
John McCain, R-Ariz., himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, the water board technique is a “very exquisite torture” that should be outlawed. …
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870
God only knows why anyone would listen to the GOP. Wichitans/Kansans listened to them and thought we were an island of prosperity in a nation of decline. Now we’re starting to realize, ain’t so!
Silly rabbit, didn’t you know global warming will take care of that?
You’re free to believe that, even though no working climate scientist has ever suggested such a silly thing.
The Limbaugtomized masses especially in Kansas, will never put aside their childish partisan ways.
(I should geta copywrite on limbaughtomized masses!)
And with that. . .BYE!
I’m serious, Sol. I don’t know, but I wonder. I thought some of the smart people here would know.
CapnAmerica,
Anything can be torture depending upon how it is used.
The way we used waterboarding on less than a dozen people who were not POW’s did not constitute torture according to legal experts at the time.
Care to try again?
Obama meets with technology CEOs
Obama called it a “sober” meeting but said the economic package moving its way through Congress will create more jobs and lay a foundation for long-term growth.
“It will invest in broadband and emerging technologies, like the ones imagined and introduced to the world by people like… so many of the CEOs here today,” he said, “because that’s how America will retain and regain its competitive edge in the 21st century.”
The House of Representatives approved the $819 billion economic package on Wednesday, with no Republicans voting for the bill.
The CEOs at Wednesday’s meeting came out in support of the legislation.
“At the heart of this debate over the economy is the question (of) whether America will be the preferred destination for businesses to operate, entrepreneurs to start ventures, investors to make their financial bets, and high-skilled workers to continue their careers,” Motorola’s Brown said in a statement. “President Obama understands that our economic policy must be geared toward strengthening U.S. competitiveness for the long term.”
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10152470-38.html
“Phantom” says –
“(I should geta copywrite on limbaughtomized masses!)”
Uhm….
I honestly have no idea Linda.
Sleep Deprivation can be torture.
So, does that mean if a prisoner doesn’t get 8 hours of sleep it is torture?
I guess “the google” will become a better friend. Will do me good to stretch. ;-)
HA!!! Linda, I just saw your picture. You may want to rethink the amount of information you share in your email program profile. Just sayin…
What do you mean, Sol? And maybe I don’t want the answer here, but in an email.
“Nathaniel” never ceases to amuse –
“Anything can be torture depending upon how it is used.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8
“You will sit in the comfy chair ’til lunch time. With only a cup of coffee at eleven!
CONFESS!”
Try again, boy.
I’ll send you an email.
Well, I can see my idea has some support, but the cat fights will continue until all the cats are neutered or broke. Who’s in charge today makes little difference, it seems. Who has constructive suggestions can. So far, Okobserver, Amway, Regular and Sol have had some excellent suggestions. I guess asking some of the others to put their prejudices on hold for awhile is too much to ask. No wonder this country is in the mess it’s in.
Keep fighting, ladies and gentlemen; the last one standing is still standing by him/herself. How much does that accomplish.
“Whatever the conservative talking heads want us to believe, the New Deal really did work.”
It sure did! Those foolish CONS should acknowledge that under the New Deal, It took 12 short years to work our way through the Great Depression. Then when WWII broke out, the allied Powers needed copious quantities of supplies and military equipment.
The full effects of the New Deal were mysteriously delayed until the countries of France and England started buying up as much American manufactured goods that American could crank out.
then poof! When Americans started working to produce products to export to the world, capital flowed into this country. The New Deal finally came through! Hurray for the New Deal!
JM Walker,
A new and different man today. All because his great liberal leader is in office.
Where were you 3 months ago?
Your shining example of bipartisan cooperation?
It is not that I don’t agree with you, it is that I find your call to be disingenuous.
the FACT is that deficits have gone UP under Republic administrations and DOWN under Democratic administrations.
Crapon America,
The great divider.
Ben,
What does it matter? You are standing behind the Democrats as they try to push through some of the largest deficit spending bills in history.
Then you sit here talking about how you are against deficit spending.
What sense does that make?
and DOWN under Democratic administrations.
Give him a couplla days. He’s about to set a new record…
Context. . .
#
SolDevVB
Posted January 29, 2009 at 11:48 am | Permalink
HA!!! Linda, I just saw your picture. You may want to rethink the amount of information you share in your email program profile. Just sayin…
—————–
lindainks is handing out nakie pics? Put me on the list! :D
JM I have moving to the open thread to post a letter I am sending out to as many senators as I can. Let me know what changes you see that need to be changed.
Under Coolidge, marginal tax rates were cut from the top rate of 73% to 24%. The economy rewarded this policy by expanding 59% from 1921 to 1929. [Mom_of_5]
If the economy was expanding so good between 1921 – 1929, what the hell happened in October, 1929?? The economy must not have been as good as Mom_of_5 thinks it was…
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 29, 2009 at 12:01 pm | Permalink
JM Walker,
A new and different man today. All because his great liberal leader is in office.
Where were you 3 months ago?
Your shining example of bipartisan cooperation?
It is not that I don’t agree with you, it is that I find your call to be disingenuous.
===================================================
And just what, exactly, do you offer as constructive criticism or suggestions? Anything? I ask you that yesterday and am still waiting . . . . .
“Nathaniel
Posted January 29, 2009 at 12:13 pm | Permalink
Ben,
What does it matter? You are standing behind the Democrats as they try to push through some of the largest deficit spending bills in history.
Then you sit here talking about how you are against deficit spending.
What sense does that make?”
A basic understanding of economics would teach you that we should run balanced or surplus during good times. Then we can afford deficits during bad times. Unfortunately Republics like to run up deficits ALL the time.
#
okobserver
Posted January 29, 2009 at 12:21 pm | Permalink
JM I have moving to the open thread to post a letter I am sending out to as many senators as I can. Let me know what changes you see that need to be changed.
========================================================
Be more than happy to.
Economists and historians are still debating what caused the crash. At the time of the crash, Canada had no monetary policy or central bank, so there was little government intervention in the market. (See 1934—Bank of Canada.) Canadian firms had healthy profits and did not expect the boom to end. Corporate profit expectations were inflated. Canadian corporations took advantage of the bull market to issue new stock, which overheated the supply. Banks gave out easy and cheap credit, and let people buy stocks on margin: buyers paid only a fraction of the share price and borrowed the rest. Speculation was rampant: bidding drove up the value of stocks as much as 40 times the companies’ annual earnings. Investors seemed to pay less attention to corporate earnings than to how much their shares would appreciate in value.
http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/English/economy/1929stock.html
——————-
Chas this is one of the best articles on the 1929 crash I have read. Notice it is Canadian.
Republics like to
Republics like America? Which other republics are you referring to?
Chas if you look at the entire article you will see that overall the market was good. But look at the reasons given and see if it reminds you of todays plight.
Cheap credit.
An overblown stock market.
Check yer e-mail, Sollie.
Compare this –
http://anthropology.usf.edu/women/rosebud/crRosedadcal.jpg
…with this…
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushexitstrategy.htm
There’s a considered and thoughtful debate about whether George WMD Bush or James Buchanan is the worst. president. ever.
But the most ridiculous president in history is a slam-dunk for Shrub. Silent Cal rests in peace tonight.
But… but… Okie… Isnt Canada one of those eeeevil socialist nations that we shouldnt be listening to??? just wondering…
And, if the economy ha expanded 59% in the eight years before the Crash…. under Republican leadership… What happened in October, 1929??? Surely democrats cant be blamed for that???
“Which other republics are you referring to?”
The Republic Party. People like Tiahrt.
Chas in my more gentler voice that I have said I will use with you this year ‘it isn’t the source of the message that is important it is the root causes of the crash’. They are by and large exactly what has happened to us today. Economist that have studied patterns have looked at the stock market fall as precursors of what is happening today.
Go back and look at the market before the tech bubble burst in March 1999. The pattern started there and has just moved forward.
Just the words are important. I’m not blaming anyone here if you read my post closely. The Titantic is sinking and we are still throwing rocks at the each other. Will we ever learn?
The Republic Party.
Never heard of it. Are they like Libertarians or the Constitutional Party?
They are the other party from the ‘Democrat’ Party.
The Green party?
“okobserver” –
Go to the library and check out William Manchester’s “The Glory and the Dream.” It was published in 1974 and is a most fascinating account of 1932-1972 America.
Forty years.
Forty years ago today was 1969. Woodstock hadn’t happened yet. Charlie Manson hadn’t happened yet. Richard Nixon was takin’ charge with his “secret plan to end the Vietnam War.”
A lot of things haeppened in the forty years between 1932 and 1972. A lot of things have changed since 1969.
But you see a uniquely American pattern we’re going through in this, the Second Great Depression. The first couple of chapters of “The Glory and the Dream” will give you a lot of information of what Coolidge/Hoover wrought.
I read what some of you CONs post and wonder if George Santayana might have been an optimist.
sol – the Party Bush and Tiahrt are in.
“Why should anyone listen to the GOP?
Because they correctly identified the root cause of the housing crisis.
Namely, that government interference is the blame not “deregulation”. If deregulation is to blame it is the governments inability to regulate itself. This report shows how the government interfered with the mortgage industry and then failed to regulate itself. Bottomline, Government screws things up when it comes to trying to interfere with the marketplace.
TARP Panel Report Cites Regulatory Failures In Crisis
“Their recommendations include reforming the mortgage financing system, through less government intervention in the housing market by entities like Fannie and Freddie, as well as improved origination and disclosure standards”
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/TARP-Panel-Report-Cites-cnbc-14197496.html
“SolDevVB” –
It amuses me you get so upset over references to “The Republic Party.”
Cute.
Oh, so you are just misspelling Republican. Gotcha.
We can and we will weather this storm, but it will be so much easier if we do it as Americans and not as Republicans and Democrats, black and white, Christian and other, etc.
We didn’t get into this mess due to the actions of one party or another.
We won’t get out due to the actions of one party or another, either.
Put the rocks down and get to work fixing OUR America.
references to “The Republic Party.”
No such animal.
Sol,
Some posters call the Democratic Party the Democrat Party, thus some posters call the Republican Party the Republic Party. ;-)
Amen. I’ll second that WS.
I’ll have to question them too. Thanx Linda.
Nathan, let me be as blunt as I can: The Bush bailout didn’t work. The Obama bailout wont work. Who came up with these bailout plans? The politicians. Who elected those politicians as our representatives? We did. So the impetus is on us, the voters, to see the problem is corrected. This whole political mess is our fault for buying into a political system that is basically broken.
Why is it broken? because the majority of the politicians WE elect are more concerned with getting reelected than fixing a broken system.
What we need is a bipartisan approach to solving the problems, not a partisan slam fest. Trying to fix blame on the reason we are in this mess, i.e., party affiliation, greedy business, etc., is hardly an option anymore: we are in dire straits now. Getting out of it will take intelligent suggestions/criticisms, not bitter partisan infighting.
If you think that approach is disingenuous, fine — that’s your business. But allow those of us who don’t to at least attempt a bipartisan effort without non-supportive rhetoric.
WS Clark,
I agree. I wish we could get together to fix America.
The Democrats are not trying to fix the country though. They are trying to fund all their little liberal government pet projects and call it “fixing the economy.”
When we fight against this, it is not because we don’t want to get along, it is because we don’t believe that spending money on STD prevention, Birth Control, Abortions, and the countless other liberal policies is “fixing the economy.”
This one sure has the cons in a tizzy!
Nathan, you’ve stated what you think we shouldn’t do. What, in your opinion, should we do? Please be specific.
Why is it broken? because the majority of the politicians WE elect are more concerned with getting reelected than fixing a broken system.
You got that right.
They are trying to fund all their little liberal government pet projects and call it “fixing the economy.”
As did the Republicans when they had their turn. Same ole same ole.
“Nathaniel” brays –
…we don’t believe that spending money on STD prevention, Birth Control, Abortions, and the countless other liberal policies is “fixing the economy.”
Considering what you DO believe, boy, your opinions are suspect.
There is certainly an economic argument to funding contraception but it was put in the bill as red meat for you CONs to pounce upon. Your Republic Party jackals pounced on it, demanded it be removed from the bill or they wouldn’t vote for it, got it removed and still didn’t vote for it!
They were lying all the time and the Democrats and President Obama punked the “loyal minority.”
This is looking like Round 4 of the Ali/Foreman fight; the ol’ Rope-a-Dope.
Keep swingin’!
“This whole political mess is our fault for buying into a political system that is basically broken.”
I agree JM. But it is not the political process, it is us. Which is why it is so preposterous that we focus on non-issues regarding candidates for office.
Have you heard any of these reasons for rejecting a candidate? Which ones were effective for all the wrong reasons?
McCain Doesn’t know how many houses he owns
Palin is a bimbo
Obama is Muslim
McCain is too old
Mccain is McSame
Palin is filmed with turkeys being slaughtered
Palin fired a trooper who didn’t like her
Obama calls Palin a pig
We can go on and on….
The campaigns are more about character assasination then about what has worked and what will work going forward and what specifically the candidate is going to do.
But that is what bloggers blog about all day long….
JM Walker,
Get the government out of these social programs which have involved government regulations and practices in lending money to people that otherwise wouldn’t be getting loans.
There are a multitude of social engering schemes run by the government getting involved in the private sector.
I believe that Obama should reassure the public that he will not be raising taxes (or reversing the Bush tax cuts) Actually, make them permenant.
Work on cutting the corporate tax rate. Accelerate tax depreciation.
Become energy independant. Explore domestic supplies and get ourselves off foriegn energy.
Cut back on “entitlement” spending programs and work towards long term plans to control the ones we have.
Obama is Muslim
=========================
Huh?
And all this time I thought he was Mexican…
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 29, 2009 at 1:41 pm | Permalink
JM Walker,
Get the government out of these social programs which have involved government regulations and practices in lending money to people that otherwise wouldn’t be getting loans.
There are a multitude of social engering schemes run by the government getting involved in the private sector.
I believe that Obama should reassure the public that he will not be raising taxes (or reversing the Bush tax cuts) Actually, make them permanent.
Work on cutting the corporate tax rate. Accelerate tax depreciation.
Become energy independent. Explore domestic supplies and get ourselves off foreign energy.
Cut back on “entitlement” spending programs and work towards long term plans to control the ones we have.
====================================================
Why, thank you, Nathan. I agree with some, disagree with others. I’ll get back with specifics, but I got a bum knee that needs a doctors attention.
RFL
Posted January 29, 2009 at 1:39 pm | Permalink
“This whole political mess is our fault for buying into a political system that is basically broken.”
I agree JM. But it is not the political process, it is us. Which is why it is so preposterous that we focus on non-issues regarding candidates for office.
===================================================
Pretty much exactly what I was saying. And I couldn’t agree more. Back later.
#
ANTI
Posted January 29, 2009 at 1:44 pm | Permalink
Obama is Muslim
=========================
Huh?
And all this time I thought he was Mexican…
=============================================
. . . and I thought he was Palin’s bastid child:-)
. . . and I thought he was Palin’s bastid child:-)
———————-
Crap, that would make him my son…
Shhhh…don’t tell anyone….
“Nathaniel” –
It’s not “…reversing the Bush tax cuts.” It’s holding the Republic Party to its word.
Okay. It was post 9/11 and Shrub thought the first way to respond was “go shopping.” And the Republic Party asked for a TEMPORARY reduction of capital gains taxes and lower brackets for the very rich.
Okay. A temporary tax might work. But part of the deal was, y’know, the “temporary” thing. Remember?
Of course you don’t.
Regarding raising taxes in a down trending economy; please look at Michigan. Learn from our idiotic mistakes. Don’t make the blunders of this state national.
MonkeyHawk,
And the assualt weapons ban was just a temporary thing to.
Yet you liberals want to bring that back.
The difference is that the tax cuts have proven to be good while the assualt weapons ban did not.
nobody is
Nattybupho
“Nathaniel” never ceases to amuse –
“…the tax cuts have proven to be good….”
And then you whine about “assault weapons?”
**THREAD DRIFT ALERT!!**
Just whom are you planning to assault, boy?
Anyone who reminds you the Republic Party and George WMD Bush promised the tax cuts would be temporary?
Right-wing immortal lie– “Tax cuts increase revenue.”
As has been pointed out before, right-wing lies are like cancer cells–they never die on their own, they have to be rooted out and destroyed.
http://www.cbpp.org/9-27-06tax.htm
From the Center on Budget Priorities and Policies–
Tax Cuts and Deficits
Congressional Budget Office data show that the tax cuts have been the single largest contributor to the reemergence of substantial budget deficits in recent years. Legislation enacted since 2001 added about $3.0 trillion to deficits between 2001 and 2007, with nearly half of this deterioration in the budget due to the tax cuts (about a third was due to increases in security spending, and about a sixth to increases in domestic spending). Yet the President and some Congressional leaders decline to acknowledge the tax cuts’ role in the nation’s budget problems, falling back instead on the discredited nostrum that tax cuts “pay for themselves.”
Myth 1: Tax cuts “pay for themselves.”
“You cut taxes and the tax revenues increase.” — President Bush, February 8, 2006
“You have to pay for these tax cuts twice under these pay-go rules if you apply them, because these tax cuts pay for themselves.” — Senator Judd Gregg, then Chair of the Senate Budget Committee, March 9, 2006
Reality: A study by the President’s own Treasury Department confirmed the common-sense view shared by economists across the political spectrum: cutting taxes decreases revenues.
Proponents of tax cuts often claim that “dynamic scoring” — that is, considering tax cuts’ economic effects when calculating their costs — would substantially lower the estimated cost of tax reductions, or even shrink it to zero. The argument is that tax cuts dramatically boost economic growth, which in turn boosts revenues by enough to offset the revenue loss from the tax cuts.
But when Treasury Department staff simulated the economic effects of extending the President’s tax cuts, they found that, at best, the tax cuts would have modest positive effects on the economy; these economic gains would pay for at most 10 percent of the tax cuts’ total cost. Under other assumptions, Treasury found that the tax cuts could slightly decrease long-run economic growth, in which case they would cost modestly more than otherwise expected. (http://www.cbpp.org/7-27-06tax.htm)
The claim that tax cuts pay for themselves also is contradicted by the historical record. In 1981, Congress substantially lowered marginal income-tax rates on the well off, while in 1990 and 1993, Congress raised marginal rates on the well off. The economy grew at virtually the same rate in the 1990s as in the 1980s (adjusted for inflation and population growth), but revenues grew about twice as fast in the 1990s, when tax rates were increased, as in the 1980s, when tax rates were cut. Similarly, since the 2001 tax cuts, the economy has grown at about the same pace as during the equivalent period of the 1990s business cycle, but revenues have grown far more slowly. (http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax.htm)
When discussing revenue growth since the enactment of the tax cuts, Administration officials typically focus only on revenue growth since 2004. This provides a convenient starting point for their arguments, as it sets a very low bar. In 2001, 2002, and 2003, revenues fell in nominal terms (i.e. without adjusting for inflation) for three straight years, the first time this has occurred since before World War II. Measured as a share of the economy, revenues in 2004 were at their lowest level since 1959.
“We won’t get out due to the actions of one party or another, either.”
HUH?
Just how have the Democrats been at fault for the cons growing the rich richer these last 30 + years??
Per capita revenue growth
2001-2007 . . . . . . . . . . 1.7 percent
Average post WW2 . . . . . . 12 percent
1990’s after tax increase . . 16.2 percent
Nathan lies, “The way we used waterboarding did not constitute torture according to legal experts at the time.”
There were no “legal experts at the time.” You had Alberto Gonzales who said “yes” before Bush even asked the questions.
Besides, the legal experts who really are legal experts are calling it torture.
It looks like Congress (cf. Russ Finegold and John Conyers) are going to proceed with torture hearings whether Obama does or not.
“BlueJay” –
You have to remember — and I’m being bipartisan here — no one is in Congress because they’re particularly smart.
It’s like the old football coach’s lament: “You have to be smart enough to figure it out and dumb enough to think it’s important.”
That was about football.
But politics is like that, too.
We’re not just in Obama’s honeymoon as new president, he’s choreographing the Kabuki theater that is Congress.
All those Republic Party congressmen who said “If you take out the condoms, I’ll vote for it,” and then voted against it, lined up for free drinks and pig-in-a-blankets at Obama’s cocktail party so they could get a souvenir photo with The President.
The reason Barack Obama is President of the United States and “ksfarmgrrl” isn’t is because he can repress the urge to say “Dance, poodle. Dance!”
Speaking of trusting RepubliCONs, anybody else remember the Chief of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, Richard Perle–
“I have no doubt that a year from now, there will be some grand square in Baghdad named for George W. Bush.”
CapnAmerica,
Do you think we are torturing thousands of our own Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen when we waterboard them as part of SERE training?
It’s funny when outraged fools scream hate and derision on Nancy Pelosi but can’t name former Speaker of the House.
Ditto head dolts, rubber stamper pampers, I have no idea really. Bush supporters who were in denial while his policies ruined America’s image in the world. Bush hired weaklings in finances, tax cut corporate executives, Wall Street melted down.
They hate Nancy Pelosi more with venom and bitterness it’s so surprising.
They can’t name former Speaker of the House, one that allowed corruption, lobbyist’s money laundering and ethics violations go unpunished.He was key member interfering with having Republicans only as Prosecuters.
Dennis Hastert is conviently forgotten already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Hastert
I won’t label every Republican bad, many voted for Obama. Those who throw out “liberal” as a slam, I lose conversation respect for immediately.
“Spending like a liberal”?
“Spend like a Conservative” is more timely accurate. Bush tax cuts and deficit growth are defining forever.
Long time since Democrats controlled Federal spending.
They say pork, what about Bridge to Nowhere for years and years.
Anyone mentions Reagan, don’t leave out he shook Saddam Hussien’s hand in friendship, through Donald Rumsfeld. That very poor decision this nation has spent Trillions in Iraq since 1983.
What his tax cuts did were meaningless.
Nathan–
Being trained to resist water-boarding is not the same as being tortured by water-boarding, as you well know.
While you ask your disingenuous questions, I’ll let the experts speak:
A former Navy survival instructor subjected to waterboarding as part of his military training told Congress yesterday that the controversial tactic should plainly be considered torture and that such a method was never intended for use by U.S. interrogators because it is a relic of abusive totalitarian governments.
Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a counterterrorism specialist who taught at the Navy’s Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in California, likened waterboarding to drowning and said those who experience it will say or do anything to make it stop, rendering the information they give nearly useless.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/08/AR2007110802150.html
This is what happened to an alleged terrorist recently put on trial. The confession he gave under duress from water-boarding could not be considered, so the case against him collapsed.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/04/05/open-letter-attorney-general-alberto-gonzales
More than 100 professors of law and legal studies sent an open letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales today, criticizing his failure to condemn as illegal a number of abusive interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, exposure of detainees to extreme temperatures, forced standing, binding in stress positions, and severe sleep deprivation. The letter, whose signatories included several former government attorneys, asks Gonzales to issue a clear public statement regarding the humane treatment of detainees overseas, and to clarify that abuses such as waterboarding are subject to prosecution as crimes.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17487.html
Waterboarding is Torture, says Holer
Signaling sharp breaks from the Bush administration, Barack Obama’s attorney general nominee declared Thursday that waterboarding is torture . . .
Holder’s unambiguous answers on torture stood in contrast those given by Michael Mukasey – then President Bush’s attorney general nominee — a year ago, when he repeatedly dodged questions about the legality of waterboarding.
Holder did not. When Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy said Thursday that he considered the practice to be torture, Holder did not equivocate. “I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, waterboarding is torture.”
Holder also rejected the argument made by Bush administration officials that the president’s power in a national emergency overrode constitutional restrictions.
“No one is above the law,” Holder said.
“Nathaniel” asks –
“Do you think we are torturing thousands of our own Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen when we waterboard them as part of SERE training?”
I dunno, boy.
What did you confess to?
You are right Capn’A.
We should give the detained terrorists a recliner, cable TV, and a subscription to “Musky Muslim” magazine so they can better enjoy their stay.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/01/national/main3441363.shtml
After World War II, U.S. military commissions prosecuted several Japanese soldiers for subjecting U.S. soldiers to waterboarding, according to Human Rights Watch. In 1968, a U.S. soldier was court-martialed for water boarding a Vietnamese prisoner.
But in October 2006, Vice President Dick Cheney confirmed the United States had used the controversial technique to interrogate senior Al Qaeda suspects, and he said the White House did not consider waterboarding a form of torture.
MonkeyH–
Good question, and of course that’s exactly the problem–people “confess” to whatever you want them to when they can’t breathe.
CapnAmerica,
First of all, we waterboarded less than a dozen terrorists. I believe the number is about 3.
3 terrorists were waterboarded.
And guess what? It did work:
http://thehill.com/byron-york/when-waterboarding-works-2007-12-13.html
““Was it used on Zubaydah?” Ross asked Kiriakou.
“It was.”
“And was it successful?”
“It was.”
After the waterboarding session, Zubaydah was a different man. “He told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night,” Kiriakou said, “and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured.”
U.S. interrogators, fearing another major attack — remember, this was just months after 9/11 — worked fast. According to Kiriakou, Zubaydah provided information that helped stop a number of al Qaeda actions.
“So in your view the waterboarding broke him?” Ross asked.
“I think it did, yes.”
“And did it make a difference?”
“It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”
CapnAmerica,
Once again, POW’s are given a very different set of rules. Constantly comparing the actions of what the Japanese did to our POW’s during WWII and what we have done to 3 toerrorists is comparing apples to oranges.
President Obama signed into law today the Lily Ledbetter Act making it illegal for American corporations to pay a woman less than a man for the same work.
Brownback and Roberts voted against it.
Unfrickingbelievable.
One thing I’m quite happy to pin on the Dems: NAFTA. Though negotiations started with George HW Bush, we had a Dem president and a Dem Congress when it passed. It didn’t have to happen, at least not in the way it was done.
On one side we have a populist President frantically wooing the Republican establishment to round up the 30 or so votes he needs to get Nafta through the House. Standing the usual political coalitions on their heads, Mr. Clinton has courted familiar G.O.P. luminaries like Henry Kissinger, James Baker and even Senator Bob Dole, while accusing his erstwhile allies in the labor movement of using “naked pressure” and “muscle-bound tactics” to defeat the agreement.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE5DC103AF93AA35752C1A965958260
That was back when the Democrats held the government for the first time in 12 years, and unfortunately, were listening to the so-called “Democratic Leadership Council.”
In the 1994 elections, we saw how well that worked.
CapnAmerica,
We already have a law which did that. It is called the Equal Pay Act.
This law was passed in response to the restrictions on time for filing a law suit.
Nathan–
A lot of the worst of the Gitmo prisoners are demanding trial.
Why?
Probably because they know that the “confessions” they signed aren’t worth the paper they wrote them on since they were the result of torture.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,387024,00.html?sPage=fnc/us/waronterror
GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba — The judge in the first American war crimes trial since World War II barred evidence on Monday that interrogators obtained from Usama bin Laden’s driver following his capture in Afghanistan.
The judge, Navy Capt. Keith Allred, said the prosecution cannot use a series of interrogations at the Bagram air base and Panshir, Afghanistan, because of the “highly coercive environments and conditions under which they were made.”
Brilliant.
CapnAmerica,
So what do you propose we do? Let them all go?
Guantánamo Judge Throws Out More Evidence Obtained Through Torture in Jawad Case
GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba – November 20 – Less than a month after throwing out an alleged confession obtained through torture, a judge late Wednesday rejected more evidence gathered through coercive interrogations in the military commission case against Afghan national Mohammed Jawad. Army judge Col. Stephen Henley held that evidence collected while Jawad was in U.S. custody cannot be admitted in his trial. Previously, the government had told the judge that Jawad’s alleged confessions were the centerpiece of its case against him.
“For the second time in less than a month, the judge has thrown out evidence at the heart of the government’s case against Mr. Jawad because it was obtained through torture. All of Mr. Jawad’s alleged confessions have now been suppressed and the government is left with no case,” said Hina Shamsi, staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project.
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2008/11/20-10
This is the problem with you liberals. You want to turn a war on terror into some police action.
Next thing you will have our Soldiers reading terrorists their Miranda rights on the battlefield, giving them a phone call, allowing them to post bail, get a lawyer, and go on their merry way.
That is Brilliant!
Nathan–
What do you think I’m going to say?
Think real hard.
How about if we gather evidence against them the way that every good law enforcement agency does around the world without using torture so that the evidence will stand up in court?
We should try that.
Although it looks like WorstPresidentEver may have already screwed that up . . .
Too.
Just because we face a grave threat doesn’t mean we get to just throw people in jail without evidence and without trial . . .
Oh, wait. That’s just what BushCo. did.
Damn.
“We already have a law which did that. It is called the Equal Pay Act.
This law was passed in response to the restrictions on time for filing a law suit.”
At one of my old jobs, mentioning one’s salary or even discussing salaries/benefits would immediately get you fired. It was one of the things in the employee handbook.
Just because employers can hide discimination long enough to slide past time restriction doesn’t mean they should be able to get away with it.
CapnAmerica,
It is a war. They are captured enemy combatants with no military, no uniform, no rank, nothing but the aim to kill Americans.
They were captured on the battlefield.
We should have just killed them. Problem solved.
Instead you liberals want it turned into an episode of Perry Mason.
And you wonder why America is not going going to be as safe for the next 4 years?
How do we know the people in Gitmo are terrorists?
Because Gitmo is the prison for terrorists.
But how do we know they are terrorists?
Why, because they’re in Gitmo.
But how do we know they belong in Gitmo?
Well, because they’re terrorists.
******
See how easy it is to be a CON?
Just turn off your brain.
How do we know the people in Gitmo are terrorists?
Captured on battlefield fighting against our Soldiers.
No uniform. No rank. No identification.
Yep, seems like a complete misunderstanding to me.
Let them go!
Nathan–
You really should listen to your own spin. It’s amusing.
It’s a war. But the people captured are not prisoners of war.
They were captured on the battlefield, except when they weren’t.
Khalid Sheik Muhammad was captured in his bed at 2 a.m. He was a prime suspect as the mastermind of 9-11, but thanks to “red-hot-poker-up-the-butt” types, he may end up walking free . . .
Nathan,
Okay, back from the docs. Bursitis in the knee . . . sucks.
Anyway, Nathan, by entitlements, do you mean all entitlements, or just some? Could you list the entitlements you think should be done away with? I do agree there are many that are basically useless, but I’m not sure all should be eliminated, especially with the problems laid off people are having.
I do agree loaning money to people who could never pay it back is rather dumb, and should be a no-brainer to stop. I believe that is the attitude of most of the country today. I do not care to argue who’s at fault in this economic crisis. I will discuss how to regulate the financial industry in order to preclude it from happening again.
Energy independence is something I’ve stressed for years. The alternate fuels being developed show tremendous promise, with energy BTU’s way better than gas. Putting government into that would go a long way, provided whoever gets the money pays it back to the taxpayers (read government) when the product hits the market.
Unfortunately, social programs are going to be needed until the economy rights itself, with or without our help. The current economy is hurting too many people in the pocketbook, with many having no pocketbook left.
While there is little the government can do about the obscene bonuses paid to corporate scum, they could include provisions that any corporation paying excess bonuses be barred from laying off any employees.
When it comes to GW, abortion, etc., I would rather keep those on the back burner as we have too many other serious problems right now. And, no, I have no wish whatsoever to discuss them (GW or abortion) with anybody.
Iraq should be scaled back to minimum US involvement, and Afghanistan ramped up, because that is where the terrorist networks that attacked this country are. Pakistan needs to understand that as long as they have no problem with that same terrorist network operating out of their country, we will send both UCAVs and cruise missiles to route them out.
We should back Israel in any way we can. We signed a treaty saying we would with them, and we should honor that. We should also do everything in our power to assist in the creation of a Palestinian state, with the caveat that if Israel is attacked from that state, the Palestinians could lose it.
How’s that for a start? Anyone want to still get involved in hammering out some sort of bipartisan effort to send our so-called leaders?
CapnAmerica,
If he walks free, it will be because of you liberals.
How do we know the people in Gitmo are terrorists?
Captured on battlefield fighting against our Soldiers.
*****
Well, fer criky sakes, if this is true, try them and execute them or imprison them for life. I don’t have any beef with that as long as they get a fair trial.
Also, it seems like a really easy thing to prove in a court of law, so why didn’t BushCo. just do that?
Wasn’t the American John Walker Lindh convicted of fighting with the Taliban against Americans . . . in a court of law?
And wasn’t he sentenced?
Yes and yes.
“Nathaniel” proclaims –
“…we waterboarded less than a dozen terrorists. I believe the number is about 3.”
Yeah, boy.
We know a lot about what you “believe.”
I suppose when some place advertises a family of four can eat for “less than $20,” you automatically “believe” it’ll cost about three bucks.
Good luck with your beliefs.
Don’t like copywrite, how about copypaste? I was going to be deliberate and not make the copywrite error, and ended up typing it, Study long, study wrong!
okobserver
Posted January 29, 2009 at 12:21 pm | Permalink
JM I have moving to the open thread to post a letter I am sending out to as many senators as I can. Let me know what changes you see that need to be changed.
========================================================
Did you post it? I looked but couldn’t find it.
“Phantom” –
WHOOOSH!!
“The reason Barack Obama is President of the United States and “ksfarmgrrl” isn’t is because he can repress the urge to say “Dance, poodle. Dance!”
WTF?
Well, maybe so, but there was also that, ahem, unfortunate incident with a showgirl in Peoria….
heheheh
“ksfarmgrrl” admits –
“… that, ahem, unfortunate incident with a showgirl in Peoria….
heheheh”
You know what they say…
“What happens in Peoria stays in Peoria.”
Hee hee heeee!
“What happens in Peoria stays in Peoria.”
Not in the age of the intertubes and cell phone cameras.
But, it was worth it….
HOO-Ya!
#
Monkeyhawk
Posted January 29, 2009 at 6:41 pm | Permalink
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
“ksfarmgrrl” –
Several years ago I wrote a magazine piece on Class A baseball and spent a day with the kids of the Peoria Chiefs.
They were gettin’ paid something like $100 a week plus meal money but they could combine funds and were the closest thing to a celebrity in Peoria so the drinks were free and we had a great night after the game in the Peoria strip club.
And, yes. You would have had a great time.
Heckler
Posted January 29, 2009 at 8:47 am | Permalink
Tell it to BeeHo. He’s the one who desperately wanted Republicans on board so the blame could be spread around if this monstrosity goes south.
—
He’ll get Republics, too: just be patient.
Watch the second House vote when this gets back from the Senate. There are a TON of R’s who’ll vote for it then.
What you saw today was a full measure of Republic Posturing, capital “P.”
Republic
————
Lib DA catch phrase…Keep sayin’ it yo!
When the Dims really have this country in a big hurt as is coming, it may boil down to a survival of the fittest situation.
Here is a comical example:
http://www.hotironvideos.com/video/199/Stranded–Bud-Light-Commercial
OKO that was some of the most brilliant suggestions I have read. That is what seems so amazing to me that such suggestions have not been made on the House floor. Serious answers for a serious question and direct conclusions. I do understand why the topic of tariffs has not been brought up by either side. Due to money being a equal covering of palms in both parties on the subject of “free trade” and the misguided use of the policy. Neither wants to be the one that kill the golden goose and tariffs would do that along with increasing the manufacturing in the U.S. Not to mention the most powerful retailer in the country would fight it tooth and nail.
But both demands and revue would be served by passing those tariffs. At one time the Federal budget was funded by such tariffs. But a true tax cut could be had and the funding not suffer.
Tsk Tsk Tsk — Such paranoia I have not seen since my Chaplaincy Internship at Larned State Hospital in 1978… Mercy skes… And we kept those poor folks all medicated with melaril, and some other stuff… My, my, my… Paranoia will drive you nuts, Wingnuts… if you arent there already!!
So who is Bob Herbert? Anybody can rant against the enemy party, and that’s what he did here. Why is that worth calling to anyone’s attention? It’s just a childish rant, like most of the comments this blog normally attracts.