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Add another one to the Catholic Church’s long history of being on the wrong side of history. They’ve gone from siding with fascism, hiding Nazis, protecting pedophile priests, and now they’re welcoming Holocaust deniers into the fold. Stay classy Pope.
Jewish anger as pope reinstates Holocaust-denier
Israel’s Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial and the Simon Wiesenthal Centre on Sunday slammed a Holocaust-denying English bishop whose ex-communication has been cancelled by Pope Benedict XVI.
“It is scandalous that someone of this stature in the Church denies the Holocaust,” the institution said in a statement, referring to Bishop Richard Williamson who has publicly denied the murder of six million Jews during World War II.
“Denial of the Holocaust not only insults the survivors, memory of the victims and the righteous among the nations who risked their lives to rescue the Jews, it is a brutal attack on truth,” Yad Vashem said.
“What kind of message is this sending regarding the Church’s attitude toward the Holocaust?”
Unlike Hank I can post a link to the rest of the article:
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Jewish_anger_as_pope_reinstates_Hol_01252009.html
There are numerous holocaust deniers, MP… even in the Wichita area… they walk among us… and they sometimes even vote… If my dad was still living, he could take those deniers apart… He wasnt in the liberation forces… but he was part of the clean-up operations of the death camps… He used to get nauseated talking about it…
What can this Pope be thinking??
A climate change reality check
One year ago, I believed that man-made global warming was true, with temperatures rising dangerously due to increasing levels of carbon dioxide (CO2) in our atmosphere. I also believed that a consensus of the international scientific community supported these conclusions. I based these beliefs on information from the popular press, television and political leaders.
Then I began some real research on the topic. I quickly discovered three critical things:
First, the Earth has experienced significant warming over the past 18,000 years that has nothing to do with human activity.
Second, more recent temperature variations demonstrate that there is little or no correlation between levels of atmospheric CO2 and temperature.
And third, there is no “consensus” among scientists on climate change.
To understand the science of climate change, you must first know that very accurate historic temperature data going back thousands of years are available through analysis of dead corals in ocean sediments as well as ice cores from Greenland and Antarctica.
You must also understand what the Earth was like 18,000 years ago. Back then, our planet was at the peak of its most recent major ice age. At 18 degrees Celsius, average ocean surface temperatures were 5 degrees lower than they are today. Half of North America and Eurasia were covered by massive ice sheets thousands of feet thick and sea level was more than 400 feet lower than today. Then, the Earth began a dramatic warming and the ice age ended.
The increase in the Earth’s temperatures over 18,000 years has not been steady. In just the past 1,000 years, average ocean surface temperatures have fluctuated between 22 degrees C and 25 degrees C. Today the average temperature is 23.
Nine-hundred years ago, when CO2 levels were lower than today, global temperatures reached what is called the “medieval temperature maximum.” The world was warmer than today. Sea surface temperatures were 24 degrees C and the southern tip of Greenland, which had been settled by Vikings, was actually green and habitable with a European agricultural lifestyle. Unfortunately for the residents of Greenland, temperatures soon began to fall.
The Earth reached the depth of what historians call the “Little Ice Age” in about 1600 with an average ocean surface water temperature of 22 degrees C. With no help from humans, global temperatures rose significantly from 1600 to 1900.
It is true that the levels of CO2 in our atmosphere have been rising over the past hundred years as global society has industrialized. But increased CO2 stimulates increased plant and tree growth. And there are many natural ways CO2 is created, including by the breathing of humans and animals.
CO2 is essential to life and feedback loops are complex. Further, temperatures have not risen in correlation with the increase in CO2. Global temperatures actually decreased between 1940 and 1975, increased from 1976 through 1998 and remained relatively unchanged between 1998 and 2006.
Since 2006, temperatures have declined. This year record snowfall and low temperatures are being reported all over the world, from the Americas through Asia to Europe. In just a few examples, this winter the European nation of Slovenia set a record low temperature of minus 49 degrees C and travel in Madrid was hindered by the deepest snowfall in years. Record snowfall and winter storms have forced Minnesota officials to cancel an annual dog-sled race and closed schools and roads in Las Vegas. Even Malibu, Calif., and Houston, Texas, have experienced rare snowfall this winter. Lower temperatures have also led to an expansion in Alaska’s glaciers.
Once you look beyond the political beliefs of the man-made global warming or climate change movement, the scientific truth is that there is no evidence of a correlation between atmospheric temperatures and CO2 levels.
The idea that there is a “consensus” among scientists supporting man-made global warming also is plainly untrue. According to the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee Minority Staff Report released this winter, “more than 650 international scientists” who are considered experts in the atmosphere disagree with the global warming theory. This is 12 times the number of scientists who authored the pro-global warming “United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 2007 Summary for Policymakers.”
While no correlation has been demonstrated between CO2 levels and temperature, early data do suggest a strong correlation between changes in surface activity on the sun (sunspots) and temperatures on Earth. So, it might be that the same forces that have guided the changes in Earth’s atmosphere for eternity are still at work and still beyond human control.
Despite the science, many who advocate dramatic, state-dictated changes in our economy to reduce carbon levels view man-made global warming as “sacrosanct” — an indisputable, dogmatic fact. As we debate climate change legislation — which would have negative economic effects on all of us — it is time to move beyond belief to scientific understanding.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/s_608582.html
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It’s a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, And that enables you to laugh at life’s realities.
– Dr. Seuss
The(arrogant)ONE
He won.
Therefore, all criticism should cease. All questions should be hushed. All opposition must be squelched.
‘The One’ who ‘was born for this moment in history’ is now in office, and everyone must simply acquiesce to whatever he says or wants.
Funny how nobody who is saying this asinine stuff believed that in 2004 after ‘Bush won.’ Why didn’t all of his opposition simply sit down, shut up, and let ‘the one who was chosen’ do his work unhindered?
Funny how all the rules that now seem to apply to Obama never applied to anyone else.
(by someone else)
Here’s a little brouhaha brewing in my little town. Seems the local school principal started attending the Baptist Church, a tiny group with a huge endowment. So huge in fact that the church has hired a full time youth coordinator, who has started a church youth group that recruits youth from the other local churches. The controversy arose when the principal allowed the group to meet at noon in the school, after previously denying permission for the Christian athletes to meet during the school day. The youth coordinator has been present at least one of these meetings.
That’s the rumor anyway. I’ve got no idea how much of it is true. In fact, I suspect a lot of it isn’t true since hardly anything ever is here. But if true, what do you think? (That is provided any of you can)
“Funny how all the rules that now seem to apply to Obama never applied to anyone else”
“I gained political capital and I’m going to spend it.”
Bush proved himself incompetant on many, many occasions..he was the arrogant one who only surrounded himself with those who agreed with his policies or only told him what he wanted to hear.
So far, Obama has done it all differently, so why don’t you wait to see how he does before proclaiming him a failure?
Obama is more intelligent, honest, pragmatic, and thoughtful than Bush ever was, so I don’t think history is going to repeat itself.
The idea that kids can’t pray in public school or carry Bibles, etc is false. It’s a non issue unless it’s a school sanctioned activity.
If you want schools to teach religion or require that kids pray, then send them to a private school.
Mary
“Obama is more intelligent, honest, pragmatic, and thoughtful than Bush ”
Your basis for these claims? Have you seen Obama’s University transcripts? Do you really think he intended to keep all of the 500+ promises he made on the campaign trail?
Sheesh.
Have some more kool-aid.
“LA PAZ, Bolivia – Bolivian voters embraced a new constitution Sunday that promises more power for the long-suffering indigenous majority and grants leftist President Evo Morales a shot at remaining in office through 2014.”
Bush the liberator. Can you imagine this happening when Reagan was president?
Heck.. The President is meeting with the Republicans. The Obama Administration has added some additional tax cuts to the recovery bill, as the Republicans have asked. And they still drag their feet.
Why the wild exaggeration and hyperbole? The opposition is not being squelched. I’ll hazard to say the Republicans are having more access than they granted the Democrats in the past eight years.
The fact is the policies of the past eight years failed.
The electorate voted for a change in direction. Republicans can fight the tide at their own electoral peril.
“Obama is more intelligent, honest, pragmatic, and thoughtful than Bush ”
“Your basis for these claims?”
Welcome back to the planet Earth, you might like to catch up on the news you missed in the last eight years…
“Your basis for these claims? Have you seen Obama’s University transcripts? Do you really think he intended to keep all of the 500+ promises he made on the campaign trail?
Sheesh.
Have some more kool-aid.”
Oh, you mean the fact that he graduated at the top of his class at Harvard?
And how do you know he won’t follow through with what he promised? On what basis are you proclaiming him a failure?
Are YOU ever going to quit drinking the riech wing koolaide?
Keep trying, “Heckler” –
I’m not caught in your net yet.
Even the Republicans have more access under Obama than they had under Bush.
Mary
“On what basis are you proclaiming him a failure?”
Did I claim he was a failure? NO.
What I’ve done is post info that illustrates the mans arrogance. We’re all supposed to lay down at his feet and give him his way. Because he won? Guess what, there’s a lot of other people who one who do not agree with him.
It just dawned on me. Rod Blagojevich is crazy but he’s not dumb.
He’s playing out the process so he can write a book.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/
We’ve been repeatedly noting that the fastest, fairest, cheapest, most efficient way out of the current credit and financial mess is Nationalization.
As we have seem over the past few weeks, the country’s biggest banks — Bank of America and Citigroup — are deteriorating rapidly. They will need far more bailout money beyond the $350 billion of taxpayer cash and guarantees they have already received.
Note that the money already dumped into the black holes of these two financial institutions far exceeds their net worth. And in exchange for this foolish investment, taxpayers have received just 6% of Bank of America, and 7.8% of Citigroup. This is absurd. How a 120% of a company’s market cap yields a single digit ownership stake is beyond my comprehension.
The solution to the banks problems, as well as this ridiculous investment posture, is relatively simple: Nationalize the banks, appoint new management, give them 6 months to spin out 10% of each of the separate viable pieces, with the taxpayer retaining the rest as passive investors. For Bank of America, they can spin out 5 major pieces: BoA, Merrill, Countrywide, a Toxic holdings company, and a Good holdings company. The derivative exposure gets wiped out, put into the toxic holding section.
Stock holders get nothing; Since bond holders would receive some pro-rata share in a liquidation, they get a convertible preferred in the new debt free firm, as well as an opportunity to lend to the new banks at an generous convertible rate.
hehehe
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/resources-for-wall-street.gif
For a laugh-
The Idiossey
The Not-Really-That-Epic Poem of Obamacles
Revised and Updated
(with Apologies to Homer)
Book the First: A question for the Muse
Speak to me, O Muse, of this resourceful man
who strides so boldly upon the golden shrine of Potomac,
Between Ionic plywood columns, to the kleig light altar.
Fair Obamacles, favored of the gods, ascends to Olympus
Amidst lusty tributes and the strumming lyres of Media;
Their mounted skyboxes echo with the singing of his name
While Olbermos and Mattheus in their greasy togas wrassle
For first honor of basking in their hero’s reflected glory.
Who is this man, so bronzed in countenance,
So skilled of TelePrompter, clean and articulate
whose ears like a stately urn’s protrude?
So now, daughter of Zeus, tell us his story.
And just the Cliff Notes if you don’t mind,
We don’t have all day.
Said the Muse:
I will tell the story of Obamacles through my scribe Iowahawk.
But this poem is copyrighted, so reproduce at your peril.
There’s more
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/01/the-idiossey.html
High & Low Finance
Wall Street Paychecks May Wither
I hope our leaders read this
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/business/23norris.html?_r=1
Article Tools Sponsored By
By FLOYD NORRIS
Published: January 22, 2009
It is one thing when the best-paid people seem to be the smartest and the most accomplished. Those who make much less may not like it, but the differential seems understandable. It is another thing when those people are shown to have committed huge blunders that would have driven their companies out of business, and them into the unemployment line, but for government bailouts.
So it is now with Wall Street. In both Europe and the United States, antipathy toward the bailout is rising amid complaints that the money has not helped the economy by encouraging loans, but has kept the bankers in Champagne and caviar.
Are financial workers overpaid? And if so, will it continue?
The answers, according to a new study by two economists, are yes, they are overpaid, and no, it will not last.
“Wages in finance were excessively high around 1930 and from the mid 1990s until 2006,” wrote Thomas Philippon of New York University and Ariell Reshef of the University of Virginia, in a National Bureau of Economic Research working paper released this week, “Wages and Human Capital in the U.S. Financial Industry, 1909-2006.”
They forecast that up to half the wage differential observed in recent years “can be expected to disappear.”
They won’t disappear overnight, of course. The sad story of how Merrill Lynch bosses handed out bonuses just before the Bank of America takeover was completed — and just before about $15 billion in losses materialized from Merrill’s portfolio — reinforces the suspicion that Wall Streeters see themselves as entitled to outsize paychecks even if their companies are failing.
But even in the Depression the adjustment took time. The professors calculate that relative financial wages, taking into account education and other demographic factors, declined sharply in the 1930s and then at a slower pace until about 1980, when there was virtually no difference. Then, in a new era of financial innovation, “The financial sector became once again a high-skill, high-wage industry,” Mr. Philippon wrote on the N.Y.U web site this week
Poor heckie, someone should remind him that elections have consequenses.
“What I’ve done is post info that illustrates the mans arrogance.”
Jesus WEPT!
If arrogance were a crime, bush and his entire family would be serving life sentences at hard labor.
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/17-02/st_thompson
Clive Thompson on How More Info Leads to Less Knowledge
snip
Is global warming caused by humans? Is Barack Obama a Christian? Is evolution a well-supported theory?
You might think these questions have been incontrovertibly answered in the affirmative, proven by settled facts. But for a lot of Americans, they haven’t. Among Republicans, belief in anthropogenic global warming declined from 52 percent to 42 percent between 2003 and 2008. Just days before the election, nearly a quarter of respondents in one Texas poll were convinced that Obama is a Muslim. And the proportion of Americans who believe God did not guide evolution? It’s 14 percent today, a two-point decline since the ’90s, according to Gallup.
What’s going on? Normally, we expect society to progress, amassing deeper scientific understanding and basic facts every year. Knowledge only increases, right?
Robert Proctor doesn’t think so. A historian of science at Stanford, Proctor points out that when it comes to many contentious subjects, our usual relationship to information is reversed: Ignorance increases.
He has developed a word inspired by this trend: agnotology. Derived from the Greek root agnosis, it is “the study of culturally constructed ignorance.”
As Proctor argues, when society doesn’t know something, it’s often because special interests work hard to create confusion. Anti-Obama groups likely spent millions insisting he’s a Muslim; church groups have shelled out even more pushing creationism. The oil and auto industries carefully seed doubt about the causes of global warming. And when the dust settles, society knows less than it did before.
“People always assume that if someone doesn’t know something, it’s because they haven’t paid attention or haven’t yet figured it out,” Proctor says. “But ignorance also comes from people literally suppressing truth—or drowning it out—or trying to make it so confusing that people stop caring about what’s true and what’s not.”
After years of celebrating the information revolution, we need to focus on the countervailing force: The disinformation revolution. The ur-example of what Proctor calls an agnotological campaign is the funding of bogus studies by cigarette companies trying to link lung cancer to baldness, viruses—anything but their product.
Hey cut those tailpipe emissions. Congress might even let the states set those unwanted or not needed standards to save us all from global warming. Obama is out to shake us all down(along with the dem Congress).Part of the reason the auto Mfgs. is in trouble is because of the dictation of standards by politicians. Suggest that Kathy and Rod read this, they are already on board.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090126/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_greenhouse_gases
File this one in the ‘duh’ category:
Whistleblower: NSA spied on everyone, targeted journalists
Former National Security Agency analyst Russell Tice, who helped expose the NSA’s warrantless wiretapping in December 2005, has now come forward with even more startling allegations. Tice told MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann on Wednesday that the programs that spied on Americans were not only much broader than previously acknowledged but specifically targeted journalists.
“The National Security Agency had access to all Americans’ communications — faxes, phone calls, and their computer communications,” Tice claimed. “It didn’t matter whether you were in Kansas, in the middle of the country, and you never made foreign communications at all. They monitored all communications.”
More here:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Whistleblower_Bushs_NSA_targeted_reporters_0121.html
Maybe the Pope is thinking, thinking like any good Catholic brought up in a very Catholic place as Bavaria and trained in the elite Hitler Youth movement..and he was a member, a volunteer member. Perhaps like all good Catholic boys in that place and time he rejoiced over the ageement Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (late Pius X11) made with the Nazis to leave the Church alone in exhange for the Church not speaking out against Hitler. Just maybe…
kfg says-
fapfapfapfapfpafpafpfpafpfpfap.
“As Proctor argues, when society doesn’t know something, it’s often because special interests work hard to create confusion.”
That’s true annie, and the left has been successful at it since they dominate the media.
Oooooo. I bet heckie stayed up all night for that cutting come back… HEHEHEHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
“Part of the reason the auto Mfgs. (are) in trouble is because of the dictation of standards by politicians.” HUH?
Ah yes… American auto manufacturers are the VICTIMS – forced to build cars Americans are not buying.. riiiiiggggghhhht….
Too bad they won’t sell HERE the models they sell in Europe that get 50% better gas mileage. Was that dictated?
This myth that our American government can’t ever do anything right has to stop. “Government” is not the problem.. bad decision-making and overly influential special-interest lobbyist with pols in their pockets is the problem.
The reason that cars are not selling is because people are broke. It hasn’t got anything to do with mileage, with exudates, with political persuasion, with organic farming or wind power. Broke. We’re broke. Everyone is broke and most companies are broke and the reason is everyone borrowed too much money. It caugt up with us.
sursum,
Truthful statement but the pope should have known better. He created this public relations nightmare all by his self.
Have a nice day WE bloggers.
Heckler,
You won’t watch this video, but if you did it would be more difficult to continue your posts and still tell even yourself you’re being honest.
http://kansasjackass.blogspot.com/2009/01/dissent-un-american-say-again-billo.html
That’s true annie, and the left has been successful at it since they dominate the media
donndublin,
I disagree as we all have the power to sift through the info and make up our own minds. The media is merely the vehicle.
Even if the states are allowed to raise emission and mileage standards, car companies are free to build cars that can’t be sold in, say, California, if they want to.
US car companies were losing market share LONG before the current meltdown…
Whew – looks like Benedict is gonna be a real, real grewvy pope.
I swear to gawd, Maggot Punk: What in the hellola is it with you? Are you endowed with some kind of homing device that roots out not only the worst parts of the Bible (the parts my own priest and minister never quoted) but the ickiest and thorniest belchings from the pontiff?
Yep, that’s one salient reason I can’t return to the fold, as it were. I can hear it now: “Yes, Father (my confessor), there are elements of Catholicism I mournfully miss. But I have a deep and abiding hatred for your governing body (the Vatican).”
That confession would cease rather quickly, I would imagine……
Well the pope was a Nazi, so it doesn’t surprise me he likes holocaust deniers
Heckler in a nut shell:
Guy on the street: “What a beautiful day!”
Heckler: “You arrogant bastid!”
Guy on the street: “Like my new hybrid?”
Heckler: “You arrogant bastid!”
Guy on the street: “Hey buddy, can you spare me a dime?”
Heckler: “You arrogant bastid!”
Obama: “Every American will have to dig deep to help this nation through these dark days.”
Heckler: “You arrogant bastid!”
Limbaugh: “I hope Obama fails.”
Heckler: “You true American hero!”
The British take on health care in America:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/BBC_documentary_takes_on_Obamas_plans_0125.html
Scroll to bottom for three part video.
#
DavidB
Posted January 26, 2009 at 8:47 am | Permalink
“Part of the reason the auto Mfgs. (are) in trouble is because of the dictation of standards by politicians.” HUH?
Ah yes… American auto manufacturers are the VICTIMS – forced to build cars Americans are not buying.. riiiiiggggghhhht….
Too bad they won’t sell HERE the models they sell in Europe that get 50% better gas mileage. Was that dictated?
This myth that our American government can’t ever do anything right has to stop. “Government” is not the problem.. bad decision-making and overly influential special-interest lobbyist with pols in their pockets is the problem.
=======================================================
Amen to that.
We received a blow when oil prices spiked. Why not seize this opportunity now to prepare for the inevitable return of high oil costs, as well as getting cleaner and healthier air to boot?
Hank posted January 25, 2009 at 11:16 am
Hank claims that he is a science expert, because he served as a Navy “liason” to scientists.
_____________________________________-
cosmos cannot debate the facts because the facts are not on his side. Therefore he must constantly mis-characterize other peoples comments then argue against the mis-characterization.
On this particular BLOG amongst the regulars I may not be an expert, but I have experience and knowledge on certain matters that far exceeds most.
We know very little about you cosmos, other than you are a liar.
————————–
Dear Hank,
Why haven’t you proven that I “mis-characterized” you, I don’t have the facts on my side, and I’m a liar?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/01/fewer-americans-see-racism-as-big-problem/#comment-509045
Answer: Because I did not “mis-characterize” Hank, I do have the facts on my side, and I’m not a liar.
So Hank instead again proves that on this WE blog he has “experience and knowledge on certain matters that far exceeds most“, by mindlessly copy/pasting a non-scientific nonsense “opinion” from:
“Glen Meakem was the founder and CEO of FreeMarkets Inc. in Pittsburgh. He currently is a co-founder and managing director of Meakem Becker Venture Capital.”
JM Walker in a nutshell:
Guy on the street:
“I don’t agree with you and here is why”
JM Walker:
“You are arrogant and close minded, I’m not talking to you.”
Guy on the street:
“I am no more arrogant thatn you are”
JM Walker:
“You told me I was wrong, I am not talking to you, I am taking my ball and going home”
Guy on the street:
“Yeah, but if you think you are right and it contradicts what I just said, you essentially told me I was wrong too.”
JM Walker:
“No comment, I am not talking to you…”
FilmFan–
Find an Episcopal Church. We got rid of the pope, and kept the bishops.
We’ve got women in the pulpit and gays in positions of authority.
All the pomp and drama of Catholic mass with none of the hypocrisy . . .
Annie, excellent 8:23 post.
I would add the Bush administration was a major part of the problem via their politicization of the scientific process. Science took a back seat to politics during his administration, and people who had little or no understanding of science bought it. Notice I have said nothing about GW.
Obama has made it plain he will bring science to the forefront again, as it should be. But with people being fed the crap they wanted to hear for the past eight years, instead of the truth, it will be a difficult road to roll on. It’s apparent that, although we want all the latest and greatest electronic toys, we are fast becoming a nation of Luddites.
Nathan–
See my new questions to you (actually just old questions that you never answered) on yesterdays thread.
Good luck.
JM nailed it re:Heckler.
One wishes that Heckler would spend more time chasing his horses . . .
Oh, wow, Nathan, that really hurt. I think I’ll get me a cup o coffee and a doughnut and practice being arrogant.
CapnAmerica,
I’m sorry. When you are calling me a fundy-con and mocking me it is no longer a discussion. You don’t want an answer to the question, you just want to badger me. I am not wasting my time.
States Pain Meter:
Very much like the voting map with the red and blue states. Only this map indicates the blue states hurt the most. More money.
http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/gapmap/index.htm
JMWalker
Posted January 26, 2009 at 10:47 am | Permalink
Annie, excellent 8:23 post.
I would add the Bush administration was a major part of the problem via their politicization of the scientific process. Science took a back seat to politics during his administration, and people who had little or no understanding of science bought it. Notice I have said nothing about GW.
==================================
Yeah, darn that Hansen for politicizing the scientific process.
Okay, fine, Nathan.
You’re saying that you can’t answer the question of how you can believe what’s NOT in the Bible and NOT believe what’s in the Bible.
I don’t blame you for finding some transparent cop-out and running away like a little girl (no insult to little girls).
I didn’t really think Fundy-Con was that bad. It’s certainly no worse than “intellectual coward” which you called me.
But now it’s obvious that “intellectual coward” was a classic case of what Freud called projection.
Nathan, you never discuss, you preach. I can get that at any church on any given Sunday.
American_Way
Posted January 26, 2009 at 10:53 am | Permalink
States Pain Meter:
Very much like the voting map with the red and blue states. Only this map indicates the blue states hurt the most. More money.
===========================
Good Chart.
I noticed one of the largest states in area and population, Texas, has zero budget deficit. Compare that to Hollyfornia’s 13 billion dollar budget deficit.
I guess Democrats like to rush through big spending bills,without thought or diliberation just like the democrats did under Bush, but now Obama.
Fools rush in (anyone remember the banks non-accountability with last rushed bailout?).
“The president urged congressional members to quickly pass an $825 billion economic stimulus package, which he hopes will create up to 4 million jobs over the next two years.”
Those job numbers Obama will create goes up every time he opens his mouth.
As far as ‘mocking’ people, to call a practising Christian “unChristian” as you do me is a little worse than using the term “Fundy Con,” in my humble opinion.
Let’s trade personal info, cosmos.
I’ll be 64 next month. How old are you?
I did 21 years in the submarine force. Any military service?
I’ve sailed the seven seas. Can you name them off the top of your head? Or do you need to GOOGLE?
ENSO has nothing to do with the average temperature of the mass of water in the southern oceans. It has nothing to do with the average temperature of the earth.
Wnat to bet?
Just to clarify on Maggie’s post, the bishop in question had never been disciplined by the Catholic church for his thoughts about the Holocaust. His ex-communication had been due to a completely unrelated matter. So, it is more than a little deceptive to tie the Pope to the bishop’s personal beliefs about the Holocaust when the Pope canceled the ex-communication in regard to an unrelated matter.
JM Walker,
Actually, I was having a discussion with you. You simply can’t handle disagreement.
You have no problems telling me I am wrong and what you think, but can’t handle it when someone does the same to you.
#
annie_moose
Posted January 26, 2009 at 9:07 am | Permalink
That’s true annie, and the left has been successful at it since they dominate the media
donndublin,
I disagree as we all have the power to sift through the info and make up our own minds. The media is merely the vehicle.
__________________________
Annie,
How can we have the power when the info is censored by the media that no longer presents the news but promotes an agenda? Every poll I’ve ever seen indicates that journalists are overwhelming liberal. The difference between the left and the right is that the right admits their bias while the left arrogantly denies it. Everyone has a bias.
Drew Westen has an essay in HuffPo:
Rebranding Government: It’s Time Politicians Stopped Running For or Against Government and Started Running it Well…
“For thirty years, Americans have absorbed the well-branded mantra of Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution. They have absorbed it so well that it has literally become part of the fabric of their–and our–brains…. I believe Americans are better than that. I believe the nation that invented modern democracy can surely figure out how to solve our collective problems if we put our heads together and call that government.”
More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/drew-westen/rebranding-government-its_b_160851.html
CapnAmerica,
I am simply pointing out that the conversation went from our exchanging questions and answers to your inventing quotes about me and badgering me.
Just like cosmos, when you get to that point, I have no desire to continue.
From NPR:
Christians in the Third World who were once the object of America’ s missionary efforts are reversing the process. A group of conservative Episcopalians, America’s version of the Anglican Church, is seeking spiritual refuge from Anglicans in Africa who believe America has become too secular and is in need of their guidance. NPR’s Barbara Bradley-Hagerty reports on this new breed of missionaries, white, conservative and defying the Episcopal…
Nathan–
You actually went so far as claiming that I denied the divinity of Christ, a charge that would have been grounds for drawing, hanging and quartering for a thousand years in England.
But calling Nathan a “Fundy-Con” (which he is, btw) hurts his widdle feewings and he has to run away with tears streaming down his widdle cheeks . . .
Science and Technology News
Global Cooling Under-Reported, Says SPPI
Washington, D.C. 1/23/2009 05:50 PM GMT (TransWorldNews)
The Earth has shown an under-reported cooling trend for eight straight years, raising serious questions about the accuracy of the UN’s climate projections, since not one of the computer models on which it relies had predicted so long and steep a cooling, says a new review paper — Temperature Change and CO2 Change – A Scientific Briefing –from the Science and Public Policy Institute, a Washington, D.C. think tank.
The paper posits that “The chief reason for scepticism at the official position on “global warming” is the overwhelming weight of evidence that the UN’s climate panel, the IPCC, prodigiously exaggerates both the supposed causes and the imagined consequences of anthropogenic “global warming”; that too many of the exaggerations can be demonstrated to have been deliberate; and that the IPCC and other official sources have continued to rely even upon those exaggerations that have been definitively demonstrated in the literature to have been deliberate.
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=74025&cat=12
Has anyone actually read the Obama Stimulus Plan?
Any links for the details?
Reggie–
Wow. That’s the most unflattering thing you could find about Anglicans-Episcopalians.
The African Church hates our stance on gay priests. Meanwhile, we’re not too keen on their penchant for two and three wives.
Heigh ho.
JMWalker posted January 26, 2009 at 10:47 am
Annie, excellent 8:23 post.
I would add the Bush administration was a major part of the problem via their politicization of the scientific process. Science took a back seat to politics during his administration, and people who had little or no understanding of science bought it. Notice I have said nothing about GW.
——————
And re AGW, the disinformation started in the 1980’s, mostly from fossil-fuel energy and right-wing groups.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/global_warming_contrarians/global-warming-skeptic.html
It continues today — such as Hank’s 6:21 am copy/paste “opinion”.
“will save $2 billion a year by making federal buildings more fuel efficient”
That’s quite a return on investment. Now has anyone see the investment? How much is Obama spending to fix up old buildings?
CapnAmerica,
I do believe that you deny the diety of Christ.
Accepting the diety of Christ also means you reject the diety of other false gods.
Am I wrong to say that in the past you have argued that the gods other people believe in are just as valid as Christ? Something along the lines of we are all on the same path regardless of what we believe?
Accepting the diety of Christ means you accept that Christ is the one true God.
If you don’t believe that Christ is the one true God, not only for you but for everyone, then how can you say that you accept the diety of Christ?
Nathan wants to shift the argument from the unreconcilable contradiction in his argument (”that he only believes what the Bible says, until he doesn’t”) to “I lied about him.”
Yeah.
That doesn’t interest me either, Nathan.
So go ahead and run away from what you wrote.
I think it’s obvious who the “intellectual coward” is . . .
Global Warming Interrupted But Eat Raw Bugs Anyway
While many planets in our solar system are warming without any human intervention, the Earth has been experiencing dramatic cooling. Last year, dramatic global cooling was measured by all four agencies that track the Earth’s temperature (the Hadley Climate Research Unit in Britain, the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, the Christy group at the University of Alabama, and Remote Sensing Systems Inc in California). It is now estimated that the Earth cooled by about 0.7C in 2007 which is the fastest temperature change on record. In addition, the global cooling trend has continued into the first five months of 2008.
http://www.globalwarmingreviewblog.com/8891/global-warming-interrupted-but-eat-raw-bugs-anyway/
CapnAmerica
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:05 am | Permalink
Nathan–
You actually went so far as claiming that I denied the divinity of Christ, a charge that would have been grounds for drawing, hanging and quartering for a thousand years in England.
But calling Nathan a “Fundy-Con” (which he is, btw) hurts his widdle feewings and he has to run away with tears streaming down his widdle cheeks .
=====================================
Perhaps Nathan should call you what you are Crapn.
A self-serving Beezelbub, disguising himself in the crusted cloth of a self-serving pretentious false prophet imbibing the “make it up as you go” gospel from the first church of selfdom and ‘do whatever makes you feelgood’.
He wont’, but I just did.
(chortles)
Here we go! More bailout on the road leading to everyone. Airplane builders should be getting in line so they don’t have to wait to long. Taxidermists are now at the end of the line.
“Amid reports that some auto-parts manufacturers are planning to file for bankruptcy protection, one of the industry’s trade groups says parts makers are preparing to ask the federal government for financial support — potentially billions of dollars.” Foxnews
Am I wrong to say that in the past you have argued that the gods other people believe in are just as valid as Christ?
Yes, you are.
I said that a just God will not condemn billions to burn simply because they could not accept Christ as their personal savior.
You then interpreted that to mean what you just said it means.
It doesn’t.
CapnAmerica,
The very fact that you keep claiming that I believe the Bible until I don’t is a complete mischaracterization of anything I have said as well.
Nothing I have said stands in contradiction to what the Bible says.
You on the other hand, do believe things in contradiction to what the Bible says.
Then you have the audacity to sit here and mock me?
The problem is not that I am running away from anything I wrote, it is that I have no interest in arguing with someone who has to resort to weak illogical tactics in the discussion.
That is why you are an intellectual coward.
I forgive you for that, Regular.
I pray that God does too, for the Bible tells us if you earnestly repent of your sin, you shall be forgiven.
JMW — the three-part video you linked to is powerful stuff! Emphasizes the need for every American to remain very involved and do our part to make sure changes happen!
CapnAmerica,
So, you will clarify here, that you believe that Christ is the one True God and that is true for everyone, not just Christians?
Muslims worship a false God?
Jews worship a false God?
Wiccans worship a false God?
Anything thing that is worshipped other than Christ is a false God?
Is that what you are saying?
Modellers Remove Evidence of Cooling and Editor Removes Comment by Climate Sceptic
In apparent contravention of ABC Broadcasting principles, the comment from Mr Kininmonth has been expunged from the transcript and the podcast. [4]
It seems computer models can remove evidence of cooling and editors can remove comment from climate change sceptics – but of course the truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored.
http://anhonestclimatedebate.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/modellers-remove-evidence-of-cooling-and-editor-removes-comment-by-climate-sceptic/
#
CapnAmerica
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:16 am | Permalink
I forgive you for that, Regular.
I pray that God does too, for the Bible tells us if you earnestly repent of your sin, you shall be forgiven.
===================================
I find your forgiveness non-credible.
The only thing I heard was the sound of your cloven hooves clicking on brimstone infused flagstone.
As John tells us in Revelation–I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done. The sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave gave up the dead in them. They were all judged according to their deeds. And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire . . . ”
But . . . but . . . but, I thought Nathan said that we are not judged by our deeds (”who is good enough to get into heaven?” he mocks), but only by our faith in Jesus.
There seems to be a contradiction here. Nathan first argues Paul’s line that “grace alone” is the path for salvation, because “that what the Bible says” . . . until he doesn’t and ignores John’s judgment by deeds which is also “what the Bible says,” and argues that “dead souls will have a second chance for grace by choosing Christ” which is nowhere in the Bible.
CapnAmerica,
I said our salvation is not based on deeds. Which it is not. the verse you quoted is not talking about being judging your salvation on your deeds.
Even if you were to try to argue it does, then it is the verse, not I, which stands in contradiction to an entire New Testament which clearly outlines salvation is by faith alone.
But the verse is not in contradiction.
Hank posted January 26, 2009 at 11:00 am
Let’s trade personal info, cosmos.
I’ll be 64 next month. How old are you?
I did 21 years in the submarine force. Any military service?
I’ve sailed the seven seas. Can you name them off the top of your head? Or do you need to GOOGLE?
ENSO has nothing to do with the average temperature of the mass of water in the southern oceans. It has nothing to do with the average temperature of the earth.
Wnat to bet?
————————–
Dear Hank,
What does your (or my) “personal info” have to do with AGW science? Besides obviously changing the topic.
Post your proof of your claim (the opposite of climate scientists) that ENSO events do not affect global average temperatures.
It seems that all Hank has for proof is his Navy “liason”[sic] duty, insults, and his saying it’s so.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/01/fewer-americans-see-racism-as-big-problem/#comment-509045
No, the Jews and the Muslims worship essentially the same God we do, the God of Abraham.
Wikkians worship God’s handiwork–nature.
Hindus and Buddhist worship the various aspects of God as they see them: Brahman, the Creator; Shiva, the Destroyer etc.
They are not false in my mind. They are incomplete.
I believe that one can follow Christ even without having read the New Testament by living a life of spiritual awareness, open to God and His Spirit.
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:01 am | Permalink
JM Walker,
Actually, I was having a discussion with you. You simply can’t handle disagreement.
You have no problems telling me I am wrong and what you think, but can’t handle it when someone does the same to you.
===================================================
No, Nathan, you weren’t. You claimed I was wrong in my beliefs, and used the bible to do so. I replied my beliefs were based on more than the bible. You then claimed I insulted you in some convoluted way because I disagreed with you. As I said, you don’t discuss, you preach.
Dear Hank,
What does your (or my) “personal info” have to do with AGW science? Besides obviously changing the topic.
____________________________________________
Aw, but cosmos,
You talk about credibility, I have it, you don’t.
Nathan says, “But the verse is not in contradiction.”
It looks to me like the verse is in contradiction to “grace is the only way” to salvation.
Simply saying it’s not does not explain why it’s not.
Another day. Another thread filled with meaningless insults about religious beliefs. It could only happen in Kansas. Good day, all.
CapnAmerica,
If both the Jews and Muslims REJECT the diety of Christ, then how can you argue they are worshipping the same God, Christ, that we are?
So, when God said you will have no other gods before Him, was that just a joke? A mere technical guidline that doesn’t mean anything?
What if someone is worshippin a Golden Calf?
Is that God’s handiwork too? Not a false god?
Hindus and Buddhist do not worship Christ, they REJECT the diety of Christ.
Again, how can you argue that they are actually worshipping “various aspects” of God when they don’t even say they are?
#
cosmos_originally
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:07 am | Permalink
JMWalker posted January 26, 2009 at 10:47 am
Annie, excellent 8:23 post.
I would add the Bush administration was a major part of the problem via their politicization of the scientific process. Science took a back seat to politics during his administration, and people who had little or no understanding of science bought it. Notice I have said nothing about GW.
——————
And re AGW, the disinformation started in the 1980’s, mostly from fossil-fuel energy and right-wing groups.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/global_warming_contrarians/global-warming-skeptic.html
It continues today — such as Hank’s 6:21 am copy/paste “opinion”.
=====================================================
cosmos, feel free to NOT include me in any of you posts.
JM Walker,
I was only copying what you said to me. For the same reason you felt insulted I could just as easily argue what you said was insulting to me.
Do you get it yet?
It basically comes down to one thing. You can tell other people they are wrong, but can’t handle it when someone says you are.
I answered your questions, Nathan.
Now you answer mine.
How can John say in Revelation that people will stand in judgment of their deeds and receive either salvation or eternal damnation . . . and yet, be saved by “grace alone?”
I think we have to careful about the saying that the Jews and Christians do not worship the same God. Clearly the God of Moses and of King David etc… is the Christian God.
Now the Jews do deny the divinity of Christ and the triune nature of God so there are substantive differences. But I would rather say they are mistaken about the nature of God and are thus still under the law of the old covenant rather than they don’t worship the same God.
And while you’re at it, explain why, since you yourself say that the Jews worship a false god, why you and people of your relgio-political bent so dote on the state of Israel?
CapnAmerica,
First, the burden of proof is on you to explain how the verse in Revelations is talking about salvation.
Which verse are you talking about and how do you argue that it is talking about salvation being based on good deeds and works?
Back to work . . . will read and respond later . . . if there’s anything to respond TO, hehe.
CapN – Nathan….
Paul wrote his letters decades before John wrote the Apocalypse… Paul never SAW the Johanine Gospel, letters, or apocalypse…
The same goes with the letter of IAKOB(James) which also argues against faith/grace..
James was familiar with Paul’s teaching on Grace and Faith alone… He disagreed with it..
Thus, we see that there was disagreement even among the earliest of believers..
Nathan, how can you possibly believe that our God of LOVE… would purposefully condemn to Hell all of the millions(if not billions) of people who have never even heard the name of Jesus? That simply makes no sense… none at all..
CapN… I believe that the Buddhists do not believe in ANY God… They believe in some sort of Process by which souls reach Nirvana…
Outlander,
The Covenant was made prior to the Messiah. The Messiah has come and the Jews have rejected Him.
Christians worship Christ. Jews do not.
I do not deny that we worship the same God the Father, but that when Jews reject Christ, we no longer worship the same God.
And judging from Nathan’s 11:33 exercise in equivocation, there won’t be.
Thank you, Chas.
I’ve been trying to get this self-proclaimed “Biblical literalist” to answer that straight-forward question for several days now.
Maybe if you ask the same thing, he’ll finally give some justification for it.
Chas,
Love? Our God of love is the same God who killed countless people, sent people to war, ordered the killing of entire groups.
His love is sending his Son as a sacrifice for us and offering us salvation.
It is your human arrogance which concludes that God’s love must include all when the clear Biblical message is contrary to that teaching.
CapnAmerica,
You have yet to give me the actual verse you are talking about or how to explain how it is talking about salvation.
What am I supposed to be arguing against?
You hear clicking sounds of hooves on flagstone…
The Crapn has entered the building…
Chas–
As for Buddhists, you are correct.
But one could see that as worship the part of ourselves that is God.
As I understand it, they don’t want to become one with the universe (as we wrongly think they do)–they want to recognize fully that they ARE one with the universe.
(Wow. That should really set Nathan on a rant . . . )
Yup, he won’t answer it when you ask it either.
He’s apparently not a God of love, Chas.
He’s a God of WRATH!
And only the true-believers like Nathan will be spared.
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 24, 2009 at 4:03 pm | Permalink
JM Walker,
As I said, believe what you wish, but you can hardly claim to base it on the Bible. Well, you might be pulling whatever verses you want to from the Bible, but you are not reading the rest of them.
The Bible doesn’t support your belief. Again, it is fine if that is what you wish to believe, but that is not what the Bible says. It isn’t even what the Catholics say either.
So basically, your belief is based on what makes you feel good about God. Again, that is fine if that is what you want to believe, but lets recognize it for what it is.
You question the Bible and Christianity’s teachings while you base your own opinion on God on what? Cherry picking what makes you feel good or sounds good?
We do not limit God at all. I recognize that God is capable of anything. There is a HUGE difference in knowing that God is omnipotent and following his commands and saying God is omnipotent so we don’t have to follow any of his commands.
You are attempting to argue that merely because God is omnipotent that there are no rules, there are no commands, because if there were we are putting limits on God.
It is the other way around. God has chosen to interact with us this way and has given us very clear commands.
It is not anymore arrogant to say we have somewhat of an understanding of God based on His interactions with us throughout history and the Bible any more than it is for you to sit here and tell me that you know God.
So, how is it that you can give me your idea of what God is while in the very same post tell me that man can’t know the mind of God?
It is a self defeating argument. If you follow logic any at all you might be able to see that.
You obviously don’t believe the Bible is the word of God if you hold the very beliefs about God that you profess here.
I am not trying to be rude or insulting, but what you are claiming here about God doesn’t come from the Bible and contradicts exactly what the Bible does say.
So how do you reconcile claiming you believe the Bible is the word of God and then espouse a belief which is contradictory to the very things the Bible says?
========================================================
That’s not preaching? Regardless of my personal beliefs, you are going to knock them the same way every time. As I stated many times, your beliefs are subject to you and God; mine the same thing. If you can claim to know the mind of God, then be my guest, because that is what you are trying to get across. Go study theology for a few years, then get back to me. We might be able to discuss religion, but I doubt it.
So let me get this correct here…
Both Chas and CapnAmerica are arguing that anything anyone believes is actually a belief in Christ.
Zues? Was actually Christ…
Golden Calf? Christ.
Human Secularism? Christ.
Haily Comet and the aliens behind it? Christ.
They are all going to heaven.
Is that what both of you are claiming? Please correct me where I am wrong.
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:38 am | Permalink
Chas,
Love? Our God of love is the same God who killed countless people, sent people to war, ordered the killing of entire groups.
His love is sending his Son as a sacrifice for us and offering us salvation.
It is your human arrogance which concludes that God’s love must include all when the clear Biblical message is contrary to that teaching.
====================================================
Preaching.
Here’s the verse for the third time, Nathan–
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done. The sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave gave up the dead in them. They were all judged according to their deeds. And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire . . . ”
As Chas just said that’s a contradiction to Paul salvation through grace.
Explain.
JM Walker,
I have studies apologetics and theoolgy for the past 5 years now.
You refuse to have discussion with me now because your little feelings get hurt when someone disagrees with you.
JM Walker,
Can’t stand having his little feelings hurt.
Reductio ad absurdum isn’t working, Nathan.
Worshipping the golden calf is worshipping Ammon, or money.
Zeus represents “might makes right.”
In short, the two things that RepubliCONs worship.
Hank posted January 26, 2009 at 11:26 am
Dear Hank,
What does your (or my) “personal info” have to do with AGW science? Besides obviously changing the topic.
____________________________________________
Aw, but cosmos,
You talk about credibility, I have it, you don’t.
———————————–
Hank, you do not have any credibility re climate science.
You’re just a dog trainer in Wichita KS, who obviously tries to change the topic instead of supporting your unsupportable opinions.
And then you run away from the blog. In short, Hank, you’re just a coward.
We all have our own apostasy towards other churches and faiths.
The Bible says we should not do it.
I do, however, recognize secular influence that corrupts the meaning of the Holy Bible.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:48 am | Permalink
Hank posted January 26, 2009 at 11:26 am
Dear Hank,
What does your (or my) “personal info” have to do with AGW science? Besides obviously changing the topic.
____________________________________________
Aw, but cosmos,
You talk about credibility, I have it, you don’t.
———————————–
Hank, you do not have any credibility re climate science.
You’re just a dog trainer in Wichita KS, who obviously tries to change the topic instead of supporting your unsupportable opinions.
And then you run away from the blog. In short, Hank, you’re just a coward.
————————————-
Just what is it that you do cosmos?
Do you lubricate retired greyhounds?
Are you a left-handed wrench salesperson?
Do you change the oil on the night time inhabitants of Broadway in Wichita?
Wow,
We need sum speling lesuns.
JMWalker posted January 26, 2009 at 11:28 am
cosmos, feel free to NOT include me in any of you posts.
—————————–
JMWalker, feel free to NOT make any meaningful comments re climate science.
CapnAmerica,
That is the crux of your claim though. That it doesn’t matter what people are worshipping, there is Christ in it whether they think there is or not.
Basically, everyone is going to heaven, no one goes to hell, no matter what you believe it is Christ…
That is your argument.
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:47 am | Permalink
JM Walker,
Can’t stand having his little feelings hurt.
===================================================
Nathaniel: Can’t stand it when anyone disagrees with his totalitarian belief in God. After all, if one disagrees with Nathaniel’s beliefs, they’re going to hell, so why discuss anything.
Quit being so childish, and maybe someone can have a decent discussion with you.
#
cosmos_originally
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:52 am | Permalink
JMWalker posted January 26, 2009 at 11:28 am
cosmos, feel free to NOT include me in any of you posts.
—————————–
JMWalker, feel free to NOT make any meaningful comments re climate science.
======================================================
In other words, don’t post anything you disagree with. You and Nathan should get together for lunch. You both have a lot in common.
“In other words, don’t post anything you disagree with. You and Nathan should get together for lunch. You both have a lot in common.”
S-N-A-P
cosmos,
You still eatin poop soup at your mentally challenged home?
Leaving aside the sniping of the Obama-hating crowd, serious questions are being asked, and need to be asked, about what the hell we’re going to do in Afghanistan.
One look at it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/weekinreview/25cooper.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=afghanistan%20&st=cse
The reports of civilian deaths over the weekend remind us that the time for such pointed questions is now, and, quite frankly, having a Raytheon lobbyist, of all people, receive a waiver to work as Gates #2 doesn’t exactly inspire me with confidence. That may not be fair, but the given the regular influence of such lobbyists over the military-industrial complex, it’s unnerving.
I’m hoping for the best, but keep your eyes open, folks.
Denial or acceptance does not suggest apostasy.
A very good page on Apostasy.
http://www.carm.org/church/apostacy.htm
linka says-
“Heckler,
You won’t watch this video, but if you did it would be more difficult to continue your posts and still tell even yourself you’re being honest.”
Sorry linda, your video won’t play for me, just keeps buffering,buffering,buffering.
What have I been dishonest about?
Rage,
Is it possible Gates himself asked for this #2? Maybe even made it a stipulation of his staying on?
CapnAmerica
Posted January 26, 2009 at 10:22 am | Permalink
Okay, now that we’ve dispensed with that nonsense, let’s see if Nathan–who loves to throw around the term “intellectual coward”–will finally answer my question:
Why are Fundy-Cons, who believe that Jews will NOT BE SAVED (and hence burn forever in an eternal lake of fire), so gung-ho to support whatever Israel does?
—————————————————————————————————–
This Lib can’t figure out why a Conservative would be supportive of people who have different religious beliefs.
Is Capn Representative of the TOLERANCE you Libs profess?
Is Racism and Discrimination truly Dead in America if you Libs do NOT support people who are DIFFERENT then you?
JM Walker,
Childish?
No, you just can’t handle having a discussion where someone says you are wrong.
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 26, 2009 at 8:22 am | Permalink
Poor heckie, someone should remind him that elections have consequenses.
“What I’ve done is post info that illustrates the mans arrogance.”
Jesus WEPT!
If arrogance were a crime, bush and his entire family would be serving life sentences at hard labor.
————————————-
I see the Door Knob Humper is mocking Christ again.
#
Heckler
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:13 pm | Permalink
linka says-
“Heckler,
You won’t watch this video, but if you did it would be more difficult to continue your posts and still tell even yourself you’re being honest.”
Sorry linda, your video won’t play for me, just keeps buffering,buffering,buffering.
What have I been dishonest about?
===================
I watched it. It was humorous political satire, but of course comedy routines are not usually open to debate.
Strong on humor, weak on accurate observation.
Strong on clipping video out of context, weak on presenting a ‘measured view of the world.
Is it possible Gates himself asked for this #2? Maybe even made it a stipulation of his staying on?
Possible, even probable. I’m not assuming anything at this point, including whether the MIC will continue to pull the levers at DOD.
Heh, the fact thst I can even ask such a question is an improvement!
JMWalker posted January 26, 2009 at 12:05 pm
JMWalker, feel free to NOT make any meaningful comments re climate science.
======================================================
In other words, don’t post anything you disagree with. You and Nathan should get together for lunch. You both have a lot in common.
————————–
If you want to post what the credible, peer-reviewed AGW scientists DISagree with, like Nathaniel does, go ahead.
You can also do what Nathaniel does, and blame me for your inability to find any credible science to support your opinion(s). Or you can try to switch the topic, like his father Hank does.
cosmos is not a scientist.
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:34 am | Permalink
CapN – Nathan….
Paul wrote his letters decades before John wrote the Apocalypse… Paul never SAW the Johanine Gospel, letters, or apocalypse…
The same goes with the letter of IAKOB(James) which also argues against faith/grace..
James was familiar with Paul’s teaching on Grace and Faith alone… He disagreed with it..
Thus, we see that there was disagreement even among the earliest of believers..
Nathan, how can you possibly believe that our God of LOVE… would purposefully condemn to Hell all of the millions(if not billions) of people who have never even heard the name of Jesus? That simply makes no sense… none at all..
————————————————————
The Bible means whatever you want it to mean Chas, that is the jist of your Clergy Letter.
So you can say that billions of people will get a Free Pass to heaven, without knowing or accepting Jesus.
If that’s true, then who goes to hell?
CapnAmerica,
That is the crux of your claim though. That it doesn’t matter what people are worshipping, there is Christ in it whether they think there is or not.
Basically, everyone is going to heaven, no one goes to hell, no matter what you believe it is Christ…
That is your argument.
I don’t know if that is Capn’s argument but it sounds about right to me.
Be careful in answering that.
Remember the glass house story.
JimJohnson,
That is the point. No one is going to hell. We all go to heaven no matter what, because God loves us.
This is essentially what Chas and CapnAmerica are claiming.
And then they wonder why someone might imply that isn’t Christian?
Ref- CO2’s 12:21 post:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. . . thanks for the afternoon humor.
“Is it possible Gates himself asked for this #2? Maybe even made it a stipulation of his staying on?”
See?
This is the same stuff Cosmo tries to throw out. Obama is the President, right? He gets to pick whom he wants, right?
I gotta come to two conclusions…
A) Obama is nothing but a face and a crooning voice.
B) He has no clue as to what he’s doing, he’s Bushco Jr.
Even now, Hitler and Ghandi are joking around in heaven talking about how it didn’t matter what either did in their lives, because they both worshiped Christ and didn’t even know it!
JMWalker posted January 26, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Ref- CO2’s 12:21 post:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. . . thanks for the afternoon humor.
———————–
You’re welcome. I’m glad that you find scientific methodology, and the tactics used by the AGW deniers on this blog amusing.
“What have I been dishonest about?”
——–
Heckler,
I was wrong to use the word ‘honest.’ I’m sorry. You expressed your opinion. Every opinion is as good and as useless as the next.
In your 6:28 a.m. post you did follow the whole thing with words in parenthesis: “(by someone else)” that might have been an indication you were giving credit for those words to someone else and you simply reposted them here to the blog.
The video was a compilation of words some said under bush and then the contradictions of their own words under President Obama. It was funny! Guess they forgot the standards, or decided they were different now.
Reread you 6:28 a.m. post where you posted that someone else said, “Funny how all the rules that now seem to apply to Obama never applied to anyone else.”
I remember that I was called UNamerican because I dared to criticize bush. I still am. I was expected not to criticize. I remember when the rules were supposed to apply to bush (same ones you think never applied to anyone but Obama!).
I gotta come to two conclusions…
A) Obama is nothing but a face and a crooning voice.
B) He has no clue as to what he’s doing, he’s Bushco Jr.
Whatever other criticisms Obama might earn, he has shown that he is:
A) Actively engaging in governing
B) Has a complex understanding of what he’s doing
and
C) Has already broken in significant ways with Bushco
One doesn’t have to like him, like what he’s doing or trust him at all to acknowledge these basic realities.
If you’re aiming for ’scroll-over territory,’ Pleef, you’re off to a good start.
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:27 pm | Permalink
Even now, Hitler and Ghandi are joking around in heaven talking about how it didn’t matter what either did in their lives, because they both worshiped Christ and didn’t even know it!
========================================================
So, you’ve been there and know both are in hell, or what? What is it you’re trying to get across.
Here’s a terrific Democrat candidate for Mayor.
Blindly supporting this guy Dems?
(He doesn’t pay his Bills Either! Must be a requirement for All DemoRats, avoid paying Bills & the IRS!)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/26/gay-mayoral-candidate-curious-legal-history/
Gay Candidate for Fort Lauderdale Mayor Has Curious Legal History
Earl Rynerson, an openly gay candidate for mayor of Fort Lauderdale, has been involved in a series of lawsuits, and records show he has some unexpected habits.
JM Walker,
The point is that we are saved by our faith in Christ alone. Actual faith in Christ.
Not by our works, how good we are, or simply because everything we worship is actually Christ and we didn’t even know it.
That is my point.
Have you been there? How do you know what you claim to be true?
Nathaniel
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:25 pm | Permalink
JimJohnson,
That is the point. No one is going to hell. We all go to heaven no matter what, because God loves us.
This is essentially what Chas and CapnAmerica are claiming.
And then they wonder why someone might imply that isn’t Christian?
—————————————
If you read Chas’s Clergy Letter he’s linked to in the past, he is essentially saying the Bible says whatever you want it to say.
Chas is among the <3% of Clergy in America to sign this letter. Only the most Radical Left Extremist Clergy would claim the Bible doesn’t mean what it says.
They can justify:
1. Everyone going to Heaven no matter what you do.
2. Murdering unborn babies.
3. Gay marriage, and that being gay is NOT an abomination.
4. You name it. What’s next on Chas’ justification list, bestiality? Pediophilia?
“They can justify:
1. Everyone going to Heaven no matter what you do.
2. Murdering unborn babies.
3. Gay marriage, and that being gay is NOT an abomination.
4. You name it. What’s next on Chas’ justification list, bestiality? Pediophilia?”
———–
No matter how many people you want to judge, the only person you can control is yourself and that’s really lucky because the only person you will be held accountable for is also yourself.
Same is true for each of us!
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:44 pm | Permalink
JM Walker,
The point is that we are saved by our faith in Christ alone. Actual faith in Christ.
Not by our works, how good we are, or simply because everything we worship is actually Christ and we didn’t even know it.
That is my point.
Have you been there? How do you know what you claim to be true?
===================================================
The same as you: Faith. We come to our faith from different directions. There are over 4,200 different faiths in the world. I ask you again, which is the true faith, which is false, since they’re all based on faith?
Nathan,
So as long as I believe Christ died for my sins and I worship him, it is OK if I am gay and murder children right up until my last breath?
#
Rage
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:38 pm | Permalink
I gotta come to two conclusions…
A) Obama is nothing but a face and a crooning voice.
Crooning? Is that what he is doing?
B) He has no clue as to what he’s doing, he’s Bushco Jr.
Naw, he can pronounce ‘nuclear.’
Whatever other criticisms Obama might earn, he has shown that he is:
A) Actively engaging in governing
Including ’swearing in’ twice, because he wasn’t real sure the first time.
B) Has a complex understanding of what he’s doing
and
I do as well and wipe after wards.
And, an understanding of all ‘57 states.’
C) Has already broken in significant ways with Bushco
Liking or disliking ‘pickled pigs feet’ is no big deal.
One doesn’t have to like him, like what he’s doing or trust him at all to acknowledge these basic realities.
================================
JM Walker,
Obviously I believe that Christianity is the one true faith.
“JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:47 pm | Permalink
…Chas is among the <3% of Clergy in America to sign this letter. Only the most Radical Left Extremist Clergy would claim the Bible doesn’t mean what it says….”
That is misleading. There are only a few ‘extremist’ churches that believe every word in the Bible is to be taken literally. Almost all Churches interpret some parts of the Bible figuratively, metaphorically, or allegorically.
SolDevVB,
Of course not. Faith is not mere words. If you truly have faith then you will follow the commandments and Christ’s teachings.
No one is perfect, but that is where redemption comes in.
You must repent of your sins and only God knows the truth of your heart in those matters.
But, yes, even after you have murdered people, if you come to repent of those sins and ask for forgiveness it is freely given.
brian_nuevo
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Permalink
“JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:47 pm | Permalink
…Chas is among the <3% of Clergy in America to sign this letter. Only the most Radical Left Extremist Clergy would claim the Bible doesn’t mean what it says….”
————————————-
It’s a fact that <3% of American Clergy of signed the Radical Clergy Letter.
YOU are misleading.
Faith is not mere words.
If you truly have faith then you will follow the commandments and Christ’s teachings.
You must repent of your sins
It sounds to me like actions make up most of the issue then.
But, yes, even after you have murdered people, if you come to repent of those sins and ask for forgiveness it is freely given.
So I can lead an horrific life and with my last breath seek forgiveness and all is well?
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:07 pm | Permalink
…It’s a fact that <3% of American Clergy of signed the Radical Clergy Letter….”
reading comprehension….I never said it was not a fact.
SolDevVB,
If you truly are repentant, yes.
Faith without works is dead, and works without faith… is just works.
Based on my experience, the point is to have faith, period. What exactly the object of your faith may be, jesus or the easter bunny is irrelevant. Faith brings home the bacon.
“Grateful_Dave
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:14 pm | Permalink
Based on my experience, the point is to have faith, period. What exactly the object of your faith may be, jesus or the easter bunny is irrelevant. Faith brings home the bacon.”
Amen.
Grateful_Dave,
Even faith in such things as killing others?
Does that bring home the bacon too?
I don’t have faith in killing others. Do you? No, you don’t. I have yet to meet anyone that has such faith.
Even faith in such things as killing others?
It’s all good. Just ask forgiveness with your dying breath.
And hope like hell you don’t live in some isolated tribe in Africa and never heard of Christ. That’ll cook your bacon for sure.
First: Johnson is still wrong on what the Clergy Letter says. Note that Johnson will not post a quote or link that shows what he says has any merit.
Second: GRACE means, literally, “Unmerited Favor,” and Paul also say FAITH is a gift of God, so that no one can boast as to who is better… [Ephesians 2:8-9]
Third: The letter of James argues against Paul on Grace and Faith(the early first century argument that split James and the Jerusalem Church, from Paul and the Gentile Church).
ALSO, the Apocalypse of John DOES in fact say that “works” is a determinant factor in salvation, just as CapN said earlier.
However, as I pointed out earlier, Paul never would have seen John’s Gospel, or the Johanine letters, or the Apocalypse…
OBAMA EXECUTIVE ORDER WATCH
Look at all this ACTION would ya! Try to keep up folks.
Very fast pace here.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/executive_orders/
EXECUTIVE ORDERS
January 22, 2009
Review and Disposition of Individuals Detained at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and Closure of Detention Facilities
Review of Detention Policy Options
Ensuring Lawful Interrogations
January 21, 2009
Presidential Records
Ethics Commitments by Executive Branch Personnel
Works and faith go hand in hand Chas, not as separate things.
You are saved by grace, then you do the ‘good works’ because you are saved. It doesn’t work that if you just do ‘good works’ you will be saved.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 26, 2009 at 12:55 pm | Permalink
JM Walker,
Obviously I believe that Christianity is the one true faith.
==========================================================
And, so, in your opinion anyone not practicing Christianity is doomed to hell?
SolDevVB
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:27 pm | Permalink
And hope like hell you don’t live in some isolated tribe in Africa and never heard of Christ. That’ll cook your bacon for sure.
============================================
That’s what Nathan is saying, Sol… Which is why I asked why a God of love and mercy would condemn those isolated tribal peoples to eternal damnation, just because they had never heard of Jesus, or Bible, or even the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob..
All Nathan gave me was a snarky remark…
Obama must have taken off
Raising pigs brings home the bacon. Faith, unless you have faith that most of the time caring for piglets will make them grow up to produce bacon, has nothing to do with it.
Chas,
Re: dates of the Bible
A 2nd Century manuscript of Revelation says it was written when Nero was Caesar (68 A.D.)
Paul also lived in the time of Nero, mostly likely died about 64-66 A.D. (beheaded)
Awaiting moderation, four words written out:
Fri
Sat
and
Sun
#
beber
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:38 pm | Permalink
Raising pigs brings home the bacon. Faith, unless you have faith that most of the time caring for piglets will make them grow up to produce bacon, has nothing to do with it.
——————
Evidently you haven’t eaten the lower fat turkey bacon.
#
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:39 pm | Permalink
Awaiting moderation, four words written out:
Fri
Sat
and
Sun
====================
Heathen!
“You are saved by grace, then you do the ‘good works’ because you are saved. It doesn’t work that if you just do ‘good works’ you will be saved.”
YES Regular… I am fully aware of that… Anmd in fact I posted that just a few days ago… I said: It isnt what WE do to get God’s attention — It’s what God has done to get OUR attention…
Now having said that, GRACE is still Unmerited Favor, and FAITH is also a Gift of God…
Thus, Salvation is from GOD ALONE… Not by anything we humans do to earn it…
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:42 pm | Permalink
“You are saved by grace, then you do the ‘good works’ because you are saved. It doesn’t work that if you just do ‘good works’ you will be saved.”
YES Regular… I am fully aware of that… Anmd in fact I posted that just a few days ago… I said: It isnt what WE do to get God’s attention — It’s what God has done to get OUR attention…
Now having said that, GRACE is still Unmerited Favor, and FAITH is also a Gift of God…
Thus, Salvation is from GOD ALONE… Not by anything we humans do to earn it…
——————
Of course one doesn’t earn salvation, they must ask for it and it will be given.
That’s why ‘deeds or works’ come after salvation. Because the ‘deeds or works’ are ‘blessed’ assignments from God and not of secular origin.
A 2nd Century manuscript of Revelation says it was written when Nero was Caesar (68 A.D.)
Paul also lived in the time of Nero, mostly likely died about 64-66 A.D. (beheaded)
____________________________________________
There are a FEW N.T. folks who think the Johanine literature was early… MANY others hold out for a late date…
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html
Including, Kummel, Raymond Brown, et al… See link for further references…
Thus, Salvation is from GOD ALONE… Not by anything we humans do to earn it…
——–
…Other than to believe upon the Son of God and accept his gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit. It is simple. Why complicate it?
http://www.angelfire.com/ok/newjoychurch/4steps.html
Regular, can you indicate anywhere that Paul says one must ASK for GRACE or FAITH?? In Luther’s works you will not find such a thing… Luther writes that GRACE is a gift “freely given” — You can walk away from it, yet, the “givenness” is still there, and free… And yes, I know, Baptists historically believein back sliders.. The Reformation churches dont…
SolDevVB,
Again, there is no sin greater than another in God’s eyes.
It doesn’t matter how bad you are, if you are truly repentant of your sins, you will be forgiven.
It is not as simple as asking for forgiveness in your last fying breath. God will know your heart.
There are some groups of Baptist/Anabptist who believe in “once saved, always saved” — I failed to mention that above…
Chad, YOU of all people should know, before Final Judgement, all (even the Dead) shall be given the opportunity to hear the word, and chose to believe or not believe.
Of course, Chas’ has a different reading on the Bible. It means whatever you want it to mean.
Romans Ch 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not abelieved? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a bpreacher?
15 And how shall they apreach, except they be bsent? as it is written, How beautiful are the cfeet of them that preach the dgospel of epeace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all aobeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath bbelieved our report?
17 So then afaith cometh by bhearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their awords unto the ends of the bworld.
Chas,
Now we are getting into the difference between Calvinism vs Arminiasm.
Either way, faith in Christ is still required for Salvation.
The debate is on if that salvation can be lost and how it is attained.
But neither dismiss the faith in Christ part.
Well, the historic Calvinists believed in predestination… so, no amount of preaching could alter what had been predestined…
In light of Calvin’s predestination, it is entirely possible that God, in wisdom and mercy, takes into account those who have never heard of Christ, or Bible, or faith, etc.
Johnson — You been reading that “Left Behind” fiction stuff again?? LOL
Nathan, I am quite sure that the Bloggers dont want to listen in to a theological discussion that has, for centuries, had numerous different sides, groups, etc.
My last thought is that it is a good interpretive tool, to keep in mind the time differences of Paul, the Gospels, and in particular the Apocalypse…
Johnson, you have yet to post any evidence of what you claim about the Clergy Letter…
Most likely, thats because what you claim about the Clergy Letter does not exist…
Better luck next time….
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’”
—————————
This says it all for me.
Chas, you ignore numerous posts over several days.
You’re refusal to recognize facts put in front of your faces, does not motivate me to obey your command to bone dig.
Go dig yourself.
You posted the Clergy Letter info showing the number of signors, and admitted you signed the letter.
I posted the US Census data showing the number of Clergy.
Simple math then showed that YOU CHAS, are among just 3% of total Clergy in the USA who have signed that stupid Clergy Letter.
You Chas, are in the Small, Tiny, Fringe, Neo-Leftist Nutgroup who have signed this letter. But then, that is no surprise.
Where is this infamous ‘Clergy Letter’. I would like to read it for myself.
For OKObserver’s benefit, for The Clergy Letter, start here and read the entire rest of the day’s thread! Get your kleenex and airspray, you will laugh yourself to tears, and if your like PMomma, your cat will be farting himself into a ball of fluff!
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/01/open-thread-119-3/#comment-505900
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:49 pm | Permalink
A 2nd Century manuscript of Revelation says it was written when Nero was Caesar (68 A.D.)
Paul also lived in the time of Nero, mostly likely died about 64-66 A.D. (beheaded)
____________________________________________
There are a FEW N.T. folks who think the Johanine literature was early… MANY others hold out for a late date…
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html
Including, Kummel, Raymond Brown, et al… See link for further references…
———————-
Perhaps, but according to some historians I have read, John was exiled to Patmos by Nero and later returned to Ephesus in 69 A.D. after Nero had died. John also died in Ephesus about 99-100 A.D., most likely the last of the original writers.
“WASHINGTON (AP) – President Barack Obama’s enthusiasm for alternative energy is being buffeted by two political forces on opposite sides of plans to build the nation’s first offshore wind farm off Cape Cod.
A leading foe of the $1 billion project is Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., an early and influential backer of Obama’s presidential bid.”
Another example of liberal hypocrisy. Not in my backyard.
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 1:54 pm | Permalink
Regular, can you indicate anywhere that Paul says one must ASK for GRACE or FAITH?? In Luther’s works you will not find such a thing… Luther writes that GRACE is a gift “freely given” — You can walk away from it, yet, the “givenness” is still there, and free… And yes, I know, Baptists historically believein back sliders.. The Reformation churches dont…
———————-
Well Chas, it’s clearly written in Hebrews and other places about ‘back sliding.’
Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgement and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries
By the way, Hebrews 10:26-27 is the defining verse for Apostasy.
QUESTION: What have we learned in two millennia?
“The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
– Cicero in 55 BC
ANSWER: Evidently nothing.
Union of
Socialist
America.
Does that mean we have to change our flag?
Regular — nice diversionary tactic… But what I asked was THIS:
“Regular, can you indicate anywhere that Paul says one must ASK for GRACE or FAITH??”
http://theclergyletterproject.org
THIS IS THE CLERGY LETTER….
An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science
Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
Now, then, Johnson… WHERE does this letter say what YOU claimed it says upthread?? I am getting sick and tired of your continual lying about this matter…
If you disagree with it… fine… Nobody is asking YOU to sign it… as if you are clergy anyway…. Just stop LYING about what it says….
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 2:58 pm | Permalink
Regular — nice diversionary tactic… But what I asked was THIS:
“Regular, can you indicate anywhere that Paul says one must ASK for GRACE or FAITH??”
————————————
It’s not either/or Chas, it is both
Salvation is a gift from God by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (9)Not of works, lest any man should boast
Ephesians, of course was written by Paul.
Chas it does seem to say that people who are ‘not enlightened’ about evolution are embracing scientific ignorance and teaching this scientific ignorance to our children. This seems awfully judgemental to me. Don’t you get that from the letter.
” While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.”
This certainly does imply that the bible isn’t factual and in fact could be compared to fairy tales. The ‘overwhelming majority’ line seems to be very presumptious.
I would have to agree with JJ on this one.
Okay, Nathan refuses to even attempt to reconcile the vast contradiction between heavenly salvation by faith alone and John and James’ assertion that we will be judged by our deeds.
That’s fine. When I don’t know something, I say so. Nathan comes from religious tradition that simplifies these holy mysteries down to simple black-white truths, a kind of Christian manicheaism gnostiscm.(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism)
The Gnostics in their heresy called themselves literally “the Knowers.”
When he can’t explain a contradiction, it becomes a crisis, because his entire faith tradition is founded on the absolute inerrency of the Bible and cleaving to its literal meaning.
For instance, we know that being gay is an abomination because the Bible says so. When it comes to divorce being adultery, however . . . yeah . . . not so much.
And when it comes to the rich man having difficulty entering heaven, because a man cannot serve two masters, The Lord and money, well, then we hear a literal interpretation not at all.
We hear deafening silence. The Fundy-CONs like Rick Warren now claim God wants us to be rich!
Oko–
You think that the book of Job is literally true, every word.
There was a man, Job, and God put him to the test to win a bet with the Devil?
Does that sound the least bit rational or possible to you?
The Book of Job is written so that even any idiot can see that it’s a parable.
Unfortunately, the writers couldn’t foresee readers as idiotic as today’s Fundy-CONs.
Hey Crapn,
Do you believe Hell is a parable for permanent spiritual death or is it real?
Okob — What is there about “timeless truths” included in the Clergy Letter, that you are failing to grasp?? That IS what the Letter states about the biblical narrative… It also states, clearly and factually, that the Bible is NOT a scientific text book…
Now why dont you tell all of us how a letter that talks about the Bible as a book containing “timeless truths” is saying that the Bible is fairy tales?? Hmmm???
IF that is what you believe, then fine… As I said to Johnson, nobody is asking YOU to sign it… Why must you denigrate the beliefs of tens of thousands of others??
Do you not see where this Letter was endorsed by the United Methodist Church, last year, at their General Conference??
Before you make such sweeping condemnations of documents with which you disagree, it might be helpful to at least READ it… instead of parroting Johnson’s “Fairy Tale” screed…. ya think??
Sorry, Regular.
I’m not going to argue questions of theology with you.
I don’t talk to you about anything that is important to me.
Hank posted January 26, 2009 at 11:00 am
Let’s trade personal info, cosmos.
I’ll be 64 next month. How old are you?
I did 21 years in the submarine force. Any military service?
I’ve sailed the seven seas. Can you name them off the top of your head? Or do you need to GOOGLE?
—————–
Dear Hank,
I earlier thought that your post above was merely to switch the topic away from climate science.
But it (plus your other attack posts) seems to indicate that you believe that you are so special that your scientific opinions should NEVER be questioned — that you have a strong ‘Father knows best’ and/or a God attitude.
Correct?
Either that, or you are so clueless about climate science that everyone should just ignore your posts.
Say Chas, was wondering if the Methodists who endorsed the “Clergy Letter” do not believe in the second law of thermodynamics or think it is false?
That is, Evolutionists believe:
In order for an organism to advance or evolve, energy must in some way be introduced, gained or increased.
The Second Law, however, says this will not happen in any natural process unless external factors enter in to produce it.
Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal law of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.
Exactly what external factors do Evolutionist believers, such as the signers of the ‘Clergy Letter’, exist?
Or, are they denying the principles of the second law of thermodynamics and their own scientific base?
#
CapnAmerica
Posted January 26, 2009 at 3:55 pm | Permalink
Sorry, Regular.
I’m not going to argue questions of theology with you.
I don’t talk to you about anything that is important to me.
—————————
Afraid of the truth? :)
Here’s something for all you faithful Kommies and Socialist who think that socialism shares the wealth.
Moscow ‘has most billionaires’
Mikhail Khodorkovsky
Khodorkovsky is Russia’s richest man
The Russian capital Moscow now boasts more billionaires than any other city in the world, according to a survey by Forbes magazine.
The study also estimates that a quarter of Russia’s wealth is now concentrated in the hands of just 100 people.
continued at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3710977.stm
Actually, I think Job is most likely an ancient Greek drama…. It is quite likely one of the oldest canonical books in the Bible…
For more on JOB being drama >>>>
http://intermix.org/job/jobtitle.htm
Regular,
“Exactly what external factors do Evolutionist believers, such as the signers of the ‘Clergy Letter’, exist?”
That sounds like babbling… you care to re-write that a bit??
Thanks in advance….
BTW, still waiting on my question from above…
crickets chirping….
okobserver
Posted January 26, 2009 at 3:44 pm | Permalink
Chas it does seem to say that people who are ‘not enlightened’ about evolution are embracing scientific ignorance and teaching this scientific ignorance to our children. This seems awfully judgemental to me. Don’t you get that from the letter.
” While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.”
This certainly does imply that the bible isn’t factual and in fact could be compared to fairy tales. The ‘overwhelming majority’ line seems to be very presumptious.
I would have to agree with JJ on this one.
———————————
Thanks OK. I don’t see any other way to ‘interpret’ this Clergy Letter.
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:00 pm | Permalink
Regular,
“Exactly what external factors do Evolutionist believers, such as the signers of the ‘Clergy Letter’, exist?”
That sounds like babbling… you care to re-write that a bit??
Thanks in advance….
BTW, still waiting on my question from above…
crickets chirping…
——————————
I addressed all your questions.
I understand that your perplexed about the question I asked Chas. I shouldn’t assume you know anything about science.
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 3:52 pm | Permalink
IF that is what you believe, then fine… As I said to Johnson, nobody is asking YOU to sign it… Why must you denigrate the beliefs of tens of thousands of others??
—-How many Chas? According to your Link, only 11,800 have signed this letter. There’s over 388,900 Clergy in the USA. So, a whopping 3% have signed your Stupid letter.
Do you not see where this Letter was endorsed by the United Methodist Church, last year, at their General Conference??
—–No Link. No evidence provided. Where are their names on this letter. Don’t tell me all Methodists agree with this Stupid letter without providing EVIDENCE.
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 3:52 pm | Permalink
Before you make such sweeping condemnations of documents with which you disagree, it might be helpful to at least READ it… instead of parroting Johnson’s “Fairy Tale” screed…. ya think??
——————-
Chas you must not have READ OK’s post. She did read your Stupid letter, commented on it, and agreed with me.
Try r-e-a-d-i-n-g again.
HERE Johnson… The link is on the Clergy Letter Project home page…
“Methodism supports teaching of evolution
Albert C. “Al” Kuelling, Jul 31, 2008
Al Kuelling
By Albert C. “Al” Kuelling
Special Contributor
The United Methodist Church’s General Conference 2008 quietly moved Methodism into the 21st century by passing three “evolution-friendly” petitions, putting us alongside many other denominations in recognizing that science and theology are compatible rather than contradictory.
From the religious mistakes of the late Middle Ages, many denominations have learned that repressing science is often counterproductive to good religion. In 1600, the church burned Italian cosmologist Giordano Bruno at the stake for speculating that intelligent life might exist somewhere beyond Earth.
Shortly after, Galileo was threatened with the same fate during his inquisition. His heresy? Teaching that the Earth is not the center of the universe. Galileo recanted to save his life, but was put under house arrest for the last decade of his life.
Learning from the past, some denominations now understand that new findings about the natural universe often represent new revelations of the mysteries of God’s creation and Word. They increase, rather than detract from, our awe and reverence for almighty God’s capabilities.
At the 2008 General Conference, three petitions made the following changes to United Methodist documents:
Petition 80050: accepts evolution and corrects some ambiguities under “Science and Technology” in the Book of Discipline.
Petition 80990: endorses The Clergy Letter Project and its reconciliatory programs between religion and science and urges United Methodist clergy participation, in Resolution 11, “God’s Creation and the Church” in the Book of Resolutions.
Petition 80839: creates a new resolution, “Evolution and Intelligent Design,” in the Book of Resolutions: “The United Methodist Church goes on record as opposing the introduction of any faith-based theories such as Creationism or Intelligent Design into the science curriculum of our public schools.”
Historically Methodism has sidestepped honest dialogue about the interface between religion and science, especially about evolution. This appears to have been done out of fear that accepting the findings of science—for instance, that evolution is an established scientific cornerstone, especially in biological fields—might incur the wrath of creationists within Methodism.
The resulting effect had been an implication that The National Academies of Science and hundreds of scientists worldwide over the last century and a half are wrong.
The large voting percentage in passing the three evolution petitions is evidence that the leadership of the United Methodist Church recognizes the need to change this situation. So Methodism is joining many other denominations around the world that find no conflict between religion and science.
Many young folk have left the church because they have not been thoroughly grounded in the understanding that God uses metaphors, beautiful stories and other means to enhance understanding of religious principles. Thus, when there appears to be a conflict—albeit a needless one—between religion and science, they quietly leave.
Young people typically don’t say how important this issue is to them because they don’t want to insult those they leave behind by saying their religion is out-of-touch with reality.
Now that the Discipline has been revised to include evolution as an accepted finding of science (Petition 80050), the question becomes, “How do we get this message out to our United Methodist congregations?”
Answer: By endorsing The Clergy Letter Project (www.EvolutionWeekend.org).
The Clergy Letter Project presents a statement that clergy may endorse. More than 11,000 clergy—many of them United Methodists—signed The Clergy Letter before Petition 80990 was even presented.
The project parallels the Science and Technology section of our Discipline in stating that religion and science are not adversarial—both speak truths—and that religion should not be legislated into the science classroom.
The project has the enviable track record of being an interdenominational movement with demonstrated successes in ameliorating the battle some Christians pick with science.
The Clergy Letter Project also offers a rich variety of materials that clergy can use in their own congregations to help teach how science enhances our respect for God’s works, rather than being at odds with religion.
Mr. Kuelling, a member of First Wayne Street UMC in Fort Wayne, Ind., is retired from a career in physics. He wrote two of the petitions accepted at the 2008 General Conference related to science and faith.”
Regular
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:04 pm | Permalink
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:00 pm | Permalink
Regular,
“Exactly what external factors do Evolutionist believers, such as the signers of the ‘Clergy Letter’, exist?”
That sounds like babbling… you care to re-write that a bit??
Thanks in advance….
BTW, still waiting on my question from above…
crickets chirping…
——————————
I addressed all your questions.
I understand that your perplexed about the question I asked Chas. I shouldn’t assume you know anything about science.
——————————————-
One of many problems Chas has, is a reading comprehension problem.
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 4:55 pm | Permalink
Actually, I think Job is most likely an ancient Greek drama…. It is quite likely one of the oldest canonical books in the Bible…
For more on JOB being drama >>>>
http://intermix.org/job/jobtitle.htm
————————————————
Of course whatever CHAS BELIEVES the Bible says, CHAS’ INTERPRETATION of the Bible is what really happened.
That’s how Chas justifies abortion and gay marriage too. The Bible doesn’t really say abortion and gay marriage are OK, unless you follow Chas’ Interpretation though.
I addressed all your questions.
I understand that your perplexed about the question I asked Chas. I shouldn’t assume you know anything about science.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually, NO you didnt… You have not even begun to answer my question: Where is it that Paul says we must ASK for GRACE/FAITH???
You have, however, danced all around it quite artfully…. :-)
So, Chas – What’s your view on ‘First Cause?’
I mean did the big bang start it all?
How many laws of thermodynamics are violated with the creation of something from nothing?
Where does God fit into the Clergy Letter’s definition of ‘Big Bang’ and the absence of time events relative to space?
Have you figured out why evolution appears to progress without passing the basics of thermodynamics?
Explain these mysteries to me Chas.
How can something regenerate to another form without an increase in energy from an external source?
Are cells their own universe, capable of creating ever expanding energy?
Explain.
Chas we do ask. We ask Jesus Christ to come into our lifes as our Lord and Savior. And then by grace we are saved.
It is really a simple process.
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:19 pm | Permalink
I addressed all your questions.
I understand that your perplexed about the question I asked Chas. I shouldn’t assume you know anything about science.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually, NO you didnt… You have not even begun to answer my question: Where is it that Paul says we must ASK for GRACE/FAITH???
You have, however, danced all around it quite artfully…. :-)
======================
I didn’t dance around anything Chas. I gave the quote and the answer to your question from the Holy Bible.
re: my previous entry
———————
#
Regular
Posted January 26, 2009 at 3:35 pm | Permalink
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 2:58 pm | Permalink
Regular — nice diversionary tactic… But what I asked was THIS:
“Regular, can you indicate anywhere that Paul says one must ASK for GRACE or FAITH??”
————————————
It’s not either/or Chas, it is both
Salvation is a gift from God by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (9)Not of works, lest any man should boast
Ephesians, of course was written by Paul.
Johnson, IF you or granny actually READ the Clergy Letter, then how come you keep LYING by saying that the Letter calls the Bible fairy tales?? Hmmmm???
Show all of us where the Clergy Letter says such a stupid thing… And remember, the United Methodists are the second largest protestant denomination in the United States…
Regular, open your eyes, genius…. Paul does not say in Ephesians 2:8-9 anything about ASKING for GRCE/FAITH…. He does say they are gifts of God, gifts of UNMERITED FAVOR… Xaris/Grace… In other words, GRCE/FAITH are not gifts that can be asked for… Because they are already GIVEN!! See, if you have to DO SOMETHING(ask) then YOU are still giving yourself a role in YOUR Salvation… But by GRACE we are saved…
Well if your post is accurate Chas, then the entire UMC has become a group of false prophets, whose arrival by the way, is in prophesy.
And what a bunch of crap the UMC is working on, all these POLITICAL PETITIONS!
The UMC appears to spend more time on these POLITICAL PETITIONS then it does on teaching about Christ.
Money Changers!
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:32 pm | Permalink
The UMC appears to spend more time on these POLITICAL PETITIONS then it does on teaching about Christ.
—————————————
And so does Chas!!!
LOL!!!
Oh, and Chas, before you get snarky yet once again, if you recall when Paul was in prison, the Philippian Jailer asked him how he must be saved:
Acts 16:30-31 ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.
So there is the question that needs to be asked and was address by Paul. One needs to ask Jesus into their heart (figuratively speaking)and accept him as their Lord and their Savior.
Thusly, we are are saved by the ‘Grace of God’ and by our ‘faith in God/Jesus’ that brings our salvation.
This is the question (asking Jesus into your heart – which the answer is addressed by Paul in Acts) that sinners must ask to achieve salvation.
The Baptist/Anbaptist branch of the Church has never agreed with the Reformed of the Church on this question, and I doubt they ever will…
I sort of like the way the Campbells put it:
No Creed but Christ. No Book but the Bible.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty.
In all things love.
And Barton Stone, also early in the movement that would become the Disciples of Christ:
We may not be the only Christians; But we are Christians only!
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:28 pm | Permalink
Regular, open your eyes, genius…. Paul does not say in Ephesians 2:8-9 anything about ASKING for GRCE/FAITH…. He does say they are gifts of God, gifts of UNMERITED FAVOR… Xaris/Grace… In other words, GRCE/FAITH are not gifts that can be asked for… Because they are already GIVEN!! See, if you have to DO SOMETHING(ask) then YOU are still giving yourself a role in YOUR Salvation… But by GRACE we are saved…
==================================================
==================================================
Here you go Chas, spoken by Paul. It cannot be any plainer than this.
Acts 16:30-31 ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.
“This is the question (asking Jesus into your heart – which the answer is addressed by Paul in Acts) that sinners must ask to achieve salvation.”
Wouldnt that be nice?? Except for Paul didnt say that to the jailer… He simply said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. And of course, FAITH is also a freely given gift of God… (Eph. 2:8-9)
“We reexamine our ethical convictions as our understanding of the natural world increases.”
Right and Wrong change over time, according to the UMC.
Perhaps Chas, you don’t agree with me that both grace and faith are gift from God and that faith is only enacted when one accepts Jesus Christ as their savior.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (9)Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Acts 16:30-31 ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.
Now Chas, you can believe what is written in the Bible, or you can believe what some crusty old interpretist said after the Bible was written.
Regular, the Bible is just a Metaphor.
You can make it mean whatever you want to make it mean.
There’s no absolute Right and Wrong anymore. We have ‘evolved’.
My, how political can you get?
“God’s Creation and the Church (80990-C1-R11)
Amend and Re-adopt resolution #11:
11. God’s Creation and the Church
As disciples of Christ, we are called to be good stewards of God’s creation. Accordingly, we call upon The United Methodist Church to adopt fresh ways to respond to the perils that now threaten the integrity of God’s creation and the future of God’s children.
Specifically, The United Methodist Church:
designates one Sunday each year, preferably the Sunday closest to Earth Day, as a Festival of God’s Creation, celebrating God’s gracious work in creating the earth and all living things, incorporating it into the church’s liturgical calendar, and developing appropriate ways for congregations to celebrate it;
endorses The Clergy Letter Project and its reconciliatory programs between religion and science, and urges United Methodist clergy participation;
endorses the work of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment, and the World Council of Churches Climate Change Program and urges conferences and congregations to support their activities and programs;
supports the annual observance of the United Nations’ World Environment Day and encourages conferences and churches to participate in programs such as Environmental Sabbath;
recommends that annual conferences establish annual awards to honor prophetic defenders of God’s creation from within their own constituencies;
affirms the importance of nurturing, community-building approaches such as the Global Action Plan’s Household Eco-Team Program designed to foster resource efficient lifestyle practices;
encourages a simplified and environmentally sound lifestyle throughout the church and requests that Church agencies, conferences, and congregations be stewards of God’s creation by reducing levels of consumption and participating in programs that reuse and recycle goods; and
encourages United Methodist institutions to perform energy audits, improve energy efficiency, and pursue use of alternative clean energy sources such as wind and solar power where available.
ADOPTED 1996, AMENDED AND READOPTED 2004 2008
See Social Principles, ¶ 160B, and Social Principles, ¶ 160E.”
Say, how many Clergy of the UMC have signed The Clergy Letter? Since the UMC endorsed it, I’d expect ALL UMC CLERGY to sign THE CLERGY LETTER, since THEY ALL believe in this Stupid Letter.
“endorses The Clergy Letter Project and its reconciliatory programs between religion and science, and urges United Methodist clergy participation;”
Chas says “Except for Paul didnt say that to the jailer”
Acts16:29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Acts 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Chas appears to only believe part of the verses written in the Bible.
Anyone else find that troubling and the fact that Chas is supposedly a learned Minister?
“Creationism and Intelligent Design are appropriate topics in public education classes such as comparative religion, literature, or philosophy since scientific method incorporates critical thinking processes. All truth is God’s truth. The promotion of religion or any particular religion in the public schools is contrary to the First Amendment.”
So the UMC will not allow Secular Law to be violated, even if Secular Law is WRONG. Takes no stand on any issue.
The EASY Path is the Right Path. No problemo!
“We reexamine our ethical convictions as our understanding of the natural world increases.”
Right and Wrong change over time, according to the UMC.
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All this “debate” over a book of fairy tales….
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:35 pm | Permalink
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:32 pm | Permalink
The UMC appears to spend more time on these POLITICAL PETITIONS then it does on teaching about Christ.
___________________________
That’s exactly why I left the UMC.
And the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church
If the UMC believes in Separation of Church and State, then why does it continue to issue Political Petitions?
I wonder how much $$$ the UMC gave to election campaigns, and whose campaigns did that money go to?
#
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:56 pm | Permalink
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All this “debate” over a book of fairy tales….
____________________
DFTT
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:56 pm | Permalink
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All this “debate” over a book of fairy tales….
—————————————–
I see you agree with Chas then.
James, Where do you find that I disagree that grace and faith are gifts of God?? In fact, I have been saying exactly that — Why do you think I keep putting Eph. 2:8-9 on here??
YOU are the one who insists that people have to DO something in order to be saved. Paul says exactly the opposite in Ephesians…
Please to remember that Luke/Acts is written some two decades(85-88 A.D.) after Paul’s death, and thus, even if he didnt say that to the Jailer, he couldnt have argued the point with the author of Luke/Acts… eh??
“Heheheh. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!”
“heheheh. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!”
___________________________
Somebodies demons are really getting irritated with all this Bible talk.
Try this: By the gift of FAITH we profess our belief. By the gift of FAITH, we step into the waters of Baptism. By the gift of FAITH we go to the Communion Table. Luther referred to Baptism and Euchasrist as the “Means of Grace.” The Sacraments… the means of Grace…
And yes, I know, some denominations do not recognize sacraments… but rather observe “ordinances”… Mine is not one of those…
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 6:00 pm | Permalink
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 26, 2009 at 5:56 pm | Permalink
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All this “debate” over a book of fairy tales….
—————————————–
I see you agree with Chas then.
============================================
Johnson just keeps the LIES a comin’ LOL
#
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 6:02 pm | Permalink
James, Where do you find that I disagree that grace and faith are gifts of God?? In fact, I have been saying exactly that — Why do you think I keep putting Eph. 2:8-9 on here??
YOU are the one who insists that people have to DO something in order to be saved. Paul says exactly the opposite in Ephesians…
Please to remember that Luke/Acts is written some two decades(85-88 A.D.) after Paul’s death, and thus, even if he didnt say that to the Jailer, he couldnt have argued the point with the author of Luke/Acts… eh??
=======================
No Chas, you say Luther/Acts were written after Paul’s death. I disagree and it can be easily proven that Luke and Acts were not written after Paul’s death.
Once again Chas, you are ignoring what the Bible says and relying on the words of ‘Johnny-come-latelys.’
oops – Luke not Luther :)
“Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my knock and opens the door I will come in.”
This is always illustrated with a picture of a knobless door. We have to open it from the inside.
Too many posts and links for me to bother with here. It’s gettin’ so, on WE Blog, you can’t tell the Pharisees from the Sadducees without a program.
It always struck me that Jesus, when he allegedly became man-as-God-with-us (Emanuel) most frequently chose parables and metaphors to teach his lessons. Just like in his Old Man’s book.
Just as it doesn’t matter a whit if Aesop’s tortoise and hare actually raced, it doesn’t matter if there really was a prodigal son or a widow with a mite, or if He really did say, “Blessed are the cheese-makers.”
The messages are there even if they aren’t literal truth. And if you really require parlor tricks like turning water into wine to believe in your “god,” your faith might not be as strong as you think.
There’s a big difference in the books, Monkeyhawk.
No one suggests making laws based on Aesop. The bible? Not so much….
Parapharasing Prine. “Pretty good, not bad, I cant complain. But actually, all them fairy tales are about the same.”
It is pretty funny that adults can take such tales seriously.
Here’s a story I don’t often tell. A relative had contracted a fatal disease and died on the table. He was brought back to life by the surgeons.
John (my relative) said to his wife in the recovery room, “Viv, I’m scared to death. There were creatures beating me and tearing me apart when I had passed, I could not get away. I’m scared, help me.”
Neither one were Christians. Viv’ian later retold the story to her sister and it got passed on to the rest of the family. John died again later the same night once again, after his first clinical death, before he could ask for salvation.
I knew John briefly, he was a good fellow, ‘kind-hearted’ and industrious. John lost his soul to eternal torment.
Hallucinations do not validate fairy tales. If that were the case, we’d be worshiping in the Haight.
#
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 26, 2009 at 6:25 pm | Permalink
Hallucinations do not validate fairy tales. If that were the case, we’d be worshiping in the Haight.
———————–
Awww kfg, I love ya despite your myopic vision towards Christians. :)
WHERE’S THE BEEF?
Our federal government is about to russsssh through the biggest budget buster in our history.
Has ANYONE seen the details from our clear and transparent Obama?
Wait a minute, “Regular” –
Ol’ dyin’ John told Viv, “There were creatures beating me and tearing me apart when I had passed, I could not get away….” BEFORE he came to the throne of God and God looked at the Book of Life and sent him off to tread molten brimstone for all eternity?
I think he should appeal the sentence. That sounds like a reversible error in any case.
#
Monkeyhawk
Posted January 26, 2009 at 6:37 pm | Permalink
Wait a minute, “Regular” –
Ol’ dyin’ John told Viv, “There were creatures beating me and tearing me apart when I had passed, I could not get away….” BEFORE he came to the throne of God and God looked at the Book of Life and sent him off to tread molten brimstone for all eternity?
I think he should appeal the sentence. That sounds like a reversible error in any case.
——————————-
And here all along, you thought you’d be all comfy in your buried casket. Think again.
James, do show where Luke/Acts was written before the death of Paul, which YOU placed earlier at approx. 68 A.D.
Luke/Acts was written between 85-88 A.D. Unless you want to argue that point too…
WHERE’S THE BEEF? Any libs DARE to explain the Stimulus Package, hmmmmmmm? Come to it’s defense?
Congressional Budget Office highly critical of the Obama plan. Says what it has been provided is missing the mark.
Apparently the Stimulus Act won’t well, have any stimulus for years.
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/stimsummary.pdf
Here ya go, James >>>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke#After_70
Also, check the Introduction to Luke, in the Oxford Annotated Version of the RSV.
Thanks for playing…
Don’t worry about it. . . Hank, the Wichita KS dog trainer, will copy/paste an “opinion” that will scientifically(sic) refute all of this.
‘New Study Shows Climate Change Largely Irreversible‘
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2009/20090126_climate.html
Sure Chas,
One of the most significant events in that part of the world and during that time is the prophecy about the destruction of the ‘Temple.’ The destruction is never mentioned in Luke or Acts. The ‘Temple’ fell about 70 A.D. This means that both Luke and Acts were written before then.
Luke mentions Nero’s persecution of Christians (54-68 A.D.) Especially the later years of Nero’s reign. Stephen in Acts 7:55-60 and James in Acts 12:2 were both persecuted by Nero during his reign.
Paul died somewhere between 64 and 66 A.D. Why no mention of his death long after his execution?
James was a very important figure in the early church who was martyred around 62 A.D. Why not mention of his death if Acts was written after 70. A.D. and it was Luke’s procedure to record the deaths of martyrs (Acts 7:55-60; 12:2)?
Also, check the Introduction to Luke, in the Oxford Annotated Version of the RSV.
===================================
Exactly what do you want me to check?
I don’t have that version.
Well, Tim Geithner was confrmed. I had–and have–my concerns, but had I taken my concerns here, it would have just been lost in the anti-Obama hysteria. Both my US senators–Kyl and McCain voted “no.” What I find more instructive are the Democrats and Independents:
The non-Republicans who were opposed were Independent Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Democrats Tom Harkin of Iowa, Robert Byrd of West Virginia and Russ Feingold of Wisconsin.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/18003.html
I know he’s a smart guy, but I hope he has the proper judgment and ethos to lead us through this morass.
And more great news,
‘Clinton climate change envoy vows ‘dramatic diplomacy’‘
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSN26361321
” “With the appointment today of a special envoy we are sending an unequivocal message that the United States will be energetic, focused, strategic and serious about addressing global climate change and the corollary issue of clean energy,” Clinton said at a State Department ceremony.”
And more great news,
‘Clinton climate change envoy vows ‘dramatic diplomacy’‘
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSN26361321
Geez, cosmos, after your previous chilling (no double-entendre intended) link, I had to wonder if this was sarcasm. But it’s better to do something now than let it get even worse.
So it is good news.
More Fun Facts:
The last Republican president to balance the budget was Eisenhower.
But the Democrats have balanced the budget five times since Kennedy. Clinton did it four times and Lyndon Johnson did it once.
The U.S. economy created 21 million new jobs in the Clinton administration. That’s more than the last three Republican presidents, including Ronald Reagan, combined. Despite the well known economic woes the country faced under Jimmy Carter, the U.S. economy added 8 million new jobs from 1977 to 1980. That’s more new jobs under 4 years of Carter than under 12 years of both Bush presidents combined.
In 1993, Bill Clinton defied every single Republican in the House of Representatives and raised marginal tax rates to almost 40 percent. Despite GOP predictions that businesses would go bankrupt and workers would be laid off, the U.S. enjoyed the longest peacetime economic expansion in history.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-boykin/four-things-the-republica_b_161077.html
Al Gore put on Ice, this helps make my evening.
http://www.drudgereport.com/flashghi.htm
proper judgment and ethos to lead us through this morass.
Ethos:the distinguishing character, sentiment, moral nature, or guiding beliefs of a person, group, or institution
New Ethos: File fraudulent federal tax returns in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 for tens of thousands of dollars but come clean just prior to annointment by Obama as Secretary of the very branch of government he committed fraud under the first time (no the second time. No the third and fourth time) And pay interest but have your department WAIVE the penalty charges. This ethos is based upon social status: regular IRS employees are fired on the spot for similiar crimes.
DavidB regarding your FunFacts. Here’s the disclaimer:
Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
Conyers Subpoenas Rove over US Attorneys’ Firings
Monday, January 26, 2009
By Larry Margasak, Associated Press
Washington (AP) – The chairman of the House Judiciary Committee has subpoenaed former White House adviser Karl Rove to testify about the Bush administration’s firing of U.S. attorneys.
The subpoena Monday by Michigan Democratic Rep. John Conyers continues a long-running legal battle. Rove previously refused to appear before the panel, contending that former presidential advisers cannot be compelled to testify before Congress.
Rove was asked to appear for a deposition on Feb. 2. Conyers also wants him to testify on whether politics played a role in the prosecution of former Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman, a Democrat.
Rove’s former boss, ex-President George W. Bush, upheld Rove’s legal position but it has been rejected by a federal judge.
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=42556
DavidB
Posted January 26, 2009 at 7:36 pm | Permalink
More Fun Facts:
The last Republican president to balance the budget was Eisenhower.
—————
Wrong. That would be NIXON.
Makes you wonder what ‘facts’ from David one might believe.
Libs don’t know WHERE’S THE BEEF on the Stimulus Package
because our new clear and transparent government hasn’t published it. And the House is getting ready to vote the biggest spending bill in US history through – without time for public comment.
Hitler worked in similiar fashion.
Rush the bills through. “No-no! Congressmen and women – you aren’t expected to actually READ it. Just vote AYE!!!”
lindainks55
Posted January 26, 2009 at 7:58 pm | Permalink
Conyers Subpoenas Rove over US Attorneys’ Firings
Monday, January 26, 2009
By Larry Margasak, Associated Press
Washington (AP) – The chairman of the House Judiciary Committee has subpoenaed former White House adviser Karl Rove to testify about the Bush administration’s firing of U.S. attorneys.
=================================
That’s Change we can believe in.
What is the Change?
NADA
Working backwards now. Playing the Political Blame Game.
Makes you feel good, doesn’t it?
Wrong. That would be NIXON.
Well darn JimJohnson, you didn’t expect his Facts would be Fun if they were true wouldja?
I will accept that correction.. “The last Republican president to balance the budget was Nixon. But the Democrats have balanced the budget four times since then.”
WHERE’S THE BEEF?
Darn the party which claims to be more intelligent, the thinking progressives who plan things thoroughly before acting – is not questioning or even discussing the Obama Stimulus Package.
But as Linda says, “Change is good.”
DavidB
Posted January 26, 2009 at 8:09 pm | Permalink
I will accept that correction.. “The last Republican president to balance the budget was Nixon. But the Democrats have balanced the budget four times since then.”
When? 4 times since 1972? I call BS.
Who had the majority in Congress when Bill signed a balanced budget? (once or twice?)
What?
Obama HAS a stimulous package?
Where?
Eggzactly! Nothing public. It must be called,
here it comes (drum roll):
STEALTH STIMULUS!!!
Hitler? Puleassse!
OMFG. The bill is still being worked on, silly! For instance, the Obama team just added some Republican inspired business tax cuts…
“Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.” So maybe the Republican policies will work now that Obama is in the White House?
Federal deficits and surpluses for the relevant period:
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges04.png
P.S. While most of FY 1969 occurred on Nixon’s watch, it was Johnson’s budget. . .
Any chance this Stimulous Bill will allow for any debate?
Or do they just push it thru E-MERGENCY STYLE because the world will end unless its passed immediately?
Rage: Be careful what you post.
Wait for it. Just wait. When Obama passes this budget busting bill, biggest in US history, take a look at the deficit and the payments on the US Debt to GDP.
You are going to be eating your post. Obama’s Bill, by every estimate is going to run up the debt, is going to cause HUGE increases in outlays required to fund that debt.
You haven’t seen nothin’ yet.
Our children
Grandchildren
Great Grandchildren
Great Great Grandchildren
Great Great Great Grandchildren
Great Great Great Great Grandchildren
Great Great Great Great Great Grandchildren
Will be paying this bill a century from now. That’s IF our nation survives. IF we don’t become a third world debtor nation, and IF the young do not revolt.
Especially when they learn they have to fund the 77 million (1/5 of American) social security retirment plan AND
The huge medicare/medicaid bills us old farts will have.
All paid from the general fund.
But let’s not worry about the “details” of the Obama 2009 Economic Stimulus Plan.
Let’s not worry about the congress russsssssssssssshing it through without public debate or congressional discussion and debate.
It’s all part of the “change” plan.
Yep Linda getting Rove will add to the job creation, cure the economy, lower health care costs – well since those are the things people care about I guess this isn’t very important unless you have tax problems (Conyers) and want to change the subject or you blog and have an agenda that refuses to move forward.
You all do know the stories about personal credit cards. About how many years it takes to pay off the bill if you just make minimum payments on a few thousand dollars debt?
Just wait until you add a few zero’s to that few thousand!
No time to debate! We gotta Stimulate!
RoaCH I fear we won’t see the details until they are law. As Obama pointed out the other day when someone wanted to add something to ‘his’ stimulous package “I won”.
Right, “okobserver” –
And the Carr brothers are out of the rape and murder business; all that’s passed, so we should let them go free.
If crimes were committed they should be prosecuted.
george posted January 26, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Al Gore put on Ice, this helps make my evening.
———————-
george,
You’re much too easily impressed.
What would really be impressive would be similar ice sculptures of all of the climate scientists who Al Gore cites, and all of the climate scientists who agree with those scientists.
“okobserver” –
“As Obama pointed out the other day when someone wanted to add something to ‘his’ stimulous package “I won”.
Yeah! That was a great moment, wasn’t it?
Pelosi, “family planning (abortion) reduces cost”.
She’s right, we can save some bucks if we just kill everyone. Have something not unlike Chiner, a one-child policy.
Cool, sssssssssccccccrrrrraaaaapppppeeee away.
Yes We Can!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFU_jE9WasM&eurl=http://www.infowars.com/?p=7327
Monkey if this was the first time this tired trick was tried then you might have a leg to stand on. It was put on the back burner because they couldn’t force Rove to testify. Do you think now that Bush is back in Texas whatever happened in his administration is open for disclosing.
When will the dems wake up and smell the coffee. You lost that round. It is old news. It is a waste of valuable resources that are needed elsewhere. Why is that so hard for you, Linda and other air heads to wrap your brain cells around.
Well time to sign off. My patience for the day is gone. Have a good one!
heh heh
Application of a 75 year oled senior citizen to Walmart:
Name: Kenneth @@@ (Grumpy Old B@st@4d
S@X: Not lately, but I am looking for the right woman (or at least one who will cooperate)
Desired Position: Company President or Vice Presidetn. But seriously, whatever’s available. If I was in a position to be picky, I wouldn’t be apply here in the first place.
Desired Salary: $185,000 a year plus stock options and a Michael Ovitz style severance package. If that’s not possible, make an offer and we can haggle.
Education: Yes
Last Position Held: Target for a middle management hostility
Previous Salary: A lot less than I’m worth
Most Notable Achievement: My incredible collection of stolen pens and post-it notes.
Reason for Leaving: It sucked
Hours Availabe to work: Any
Preferrered Hours: 1:30-3:30 Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.
Do you have any special skills: Yes, but they’re better suited to a more intimate environment
May we contact your current employer: If I had one, would i be here?
Do you have a car? I think the more appropriate question here would be – Do you have a car than runs?
Have you received any special awards or recognition: I may already be a winner of the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes, so they tell me.
Do you smoke? On the job – no! On my breaks – yes!
What would like to be doing in Five Years? Living in the Bahamas with a fabulously wealthy sexy, dumb blonde supermodel who thinks I’m the greatest thing since slice bread. Actually, I’d like to be doing that now.
Nearest relative: 7 miles
Do you certify that the above is true and complete to the best of your knowledge? Oh yes, absolutely.
Actually Monkey I thought Obama’s response was childish and beneath the dignity for a world leader. He will need to learn quickly that his sense of humor has a place and open mikes and public meetings is not the place.
“we won’t see the details until they are law.”
OKobserver I wouldn’t take you up on that bet.
The information will hit the papers, in detail, for the first time when the bill passes.
No debate.
No input from the sheep.
No compromise.
No time for even them to fully consider and comprehend the repurcusions.
We are doomed. More debt which we cannot pay.
Zero stimulus.
NO TIME TO DEBATE!
WE MUST RUSH TO STIMULATE
copyright RoaCH Kansas WEBLOG
T R A N S P A R E N C Y
I N
G O V E R N M E N T
Where is it? I can’t see through the Rose Colored Obama sheild!
Yes, we will have ACCOUNTABILITY for all actions in GOVERNMENT, and all actions of GOVERNMENT will be TRANSPARENT.
OBAMA LIED!
LIAR!
OBAMA LIED!
OBAMA LIED!
LIAR!
OBAMA LIED!
RoaCH
Posted January 26, 2009 at 8:47 pm | Permalink
NO TIME TO DEBATE!
WE MUST RUSH TO STIMULATE
copyright RoaCH Kansas WEBLOG
—————————————–
The press will go absolutely OGRASMIC over that slogan.
If the Glove don’t fit,
You must aquit!
I must go.
So excited I must find the wife.
Clarification on my copyright material:
The phrase includes exclamation points after both:
NO TIME TO DEBATE!
WE MUST RUSH TO STIMULATE!
copyright protected.
The CONS are having some really good melt-downs today on this blog.
$50 Trillion + is the Shortfall for Social Security & Medicare over the next 30 years. (Depending on how many die with National Healthcare)
Add to that $1 Trillion + in Annual Deficits under Obama, that will add another $8 Trillion over the next 8 years.
By 2016, we can count on then at least $20 Trillion for current National Debt, then add $50 Trillion over the next 30 some years, so that by 2050, AMERICA WILL BE $60 TRILLION+ IN DEBT!
THAT IS CHANGE !!!!!!!
O YAAAAAAAAAA.
WHOOPS!
$70 TRILLION+ IN DEBT!!!!
Cosmos trust me when I say the globe isn’t warming fast enough for anyone to melt down! Poor algore has even been frozen out of his congressional hearing I hear.
CHALLENGE TO ALL POSTERS. PLEASE PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THE OBAMA 2009 STIMULUS PACKAGE. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW WITH THE DETAILS FOR US TO DEBATE AND DISCUSS WITHOUT BLAME. EXAMINE THE PACKAGE TO SEE WHAT YOU SEE WHAT TRULY MIGHT STIMULATE THE ECONOMY. BUT HONESTLY POST WHAT MIGHT NOT. OUR CHILDRENS FUTURE IS AT STAKE. PLEASE SHOW ME THE BEEF. SHOW ME YOU CARE ENOUGH TO FIND THE BEEF.
Roach I take all assignments seriously and I have been looking and looking for this plan. I was going to sleep with my laptop just so I would be ready to debate in the morning.
I might not be prepared to debate but will come to watch those who know more than I do about this plan.
You haven’t seen nothin’ yet.
Hey idiot. We already know we’re going to start with high deficits. Thanks to Bushco, that was going to happen no matter what. And yes, absent offeetting tax increases, the stimulus bill will add a big chunk to that figure. We know that.
The real issues are (1) can we afford not use government spending to halt the death spiral and (2) Can we afford to continue the Bush tax cuts?
I’m not going argue with an idiot about economic theory, but it’s obvious that the answer to number 2 is “no.” The huge deficits we had under Bush–before the economic meltdown!–attest to this fact.
okobserver,
Thank you for again proving that you do not understand the difference between weather and long-term global warming.
Holy COW!
Rove subpoenaed.
That’s great news.
Let the prison terms begin . . .
SHOW ME YOU CARE ENOUGH TO FIND THE BEEF.
Fair enough, but why is that our job?
“We” the average Joe, will have even less time to read, perform analysis, and form logical opinions on the biggest spending bill in history. Not to mention time to email/write/call our representatives and comment.
And we should have that time.
Looks like they’re going to question worst. advisor. ever. about his role in trumping up charges against Don Seigelman, former Democratic govenor of Alabama.
The man will look so good in orange.
Rage your name calling precludes any rational discussion with you. But just a tidbit, your thoughts on the tax cuts are irrelevant even to the Obama plan. You are clueless.
Hey, anyone heard from ‘mxyzptlk’ the misfit tonight?
He threatened to reveal my name, address, etc. Claimed he worked at the Eagle and could post, and pull post, at his will. Here is an example of his lies.
mxyzptlk Posted January 25, 2009 at 8:47 pm | Permalink
“Shall I prove what I say by posting your name and address bigot bawks?”
Hmmm…how about tomorrow at 1 PM?
On second thought let’s make it cosmic numerically by saying the Revelation shall occur on 1/26/09 at 12:34 PM.
Stay tuned bpyz and gurlz to see bigot bawks spanked!”
Does anyone see anything? Now who’s been spanked!
The petty little liar, what an insignificant jerk.
Obamah has stated that HAMAS did it’s self no favors by launching kassam rockets into Israel (for the past 3 years) . . . . and that Israel (a democracy) has a right to defend herself . . . . that HAMAS also needs to recognize the legitimate existance of Israel . . . and that HAMAS must not be allowed re-arm . . . . . . . . I will agree with him on that one
GORE HEARING ON WARMING MAY BE PUT ON ICE
Mon Jan 26 2009 17:59:26 ET
Al Gore is scheduled before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Wednesday morning to once again testify on the ‘urgent need’ to combat global warming.
But Mother Nature seems ready to freeze the proceedings.
A ‘Winter Storm Watch’ has been posted for the nation’s capitol and there is a potential for significant snow… sleet… or ice accumulations.
“I can’t imagine the Democrats would want to showcase Mr. Gore and his new findings on global warming as a winter storm rages outside,” a Republican lawmaker emailed the DRUDGE REPORT. “And if the ice really piles up, it will not be safe to travel.”
A spokesman for Sen. John Kerry, who chairs the committee, was not immediately available to comment on contingency plans.
Global warming advocates have suggested this year’s wild winter spells are proof of climate change.
This is just so funny, mother nature and ‘global warming’ is not cooperating with the radical left liberals agenda to tax everything including cows farting.
But just a tidbit, your thoughts on the tax cuts are irrelevant even to the Obama plan.
Well, okay, I shouldn’t have called you an idiot. It seemed a bit absurdist to needle me for reporting the facts of Republican deficits, as if the current meltdown can possibly give me a reason to, as you say “eat” my entirely factual post.
To say that tax cuts aren’t relevant to deficits is like saying that money isn’t relevant to debt, which is what we’re talking about, the overall debt, not just the stimulus bill.
Interesting Statistics
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law,
St. Paul, Minnesota, points out facts of 2008 Presidential election:
Number of States won by: Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29
Square miles of land won by: Democrats: 580,000 Republicans: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Democrats: 127 million Republicans: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Democrats: 13.2
Republicans: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: “In aggregate, the map of the territory Republican won by Republicans was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.
Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare.
Professor Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the “complacency and apathy” phase of Professor Tyler’s definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation’s population already having reached the “governmental dependency” phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal’s and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years
“S. Brown agrees that the references to the Jerusalem temple’s destruction are seen as evidence of a post-70 date. Brown, Schuyler. The origins of Christianity: a historical introduction to the New Testament. New York: Oxford University Press, 1993. p. 24″
James… Nowhere in the Bible is the death of Paul recorded… Nowhere… Your ranting on that and on the destruction of the Temple are both spurious arguments… Your argument is that since Luke has neither the destruction of the Temple, nor the death of Paul, that means Luke comes before either event…
Once again there are a handful of N.T. scholars who would agree with you…
But MOST would press for a late date…
Stephen was stoned(Jewish execution) in Jerusalem… Stephen was killed by Jewish leaders… not by the Romans…
“Scholarship today is in wide agreement that both the Gospel and Acts have the same author.[7] Likewise, the traditional view of Lukan authorship is “widely held as the view which most satisfactorily explains all the data.”[8] However, there is scholarly division concerning the traditional attribution that the text was written by Luke the companion of Paul (named in Colossians 4:14), division which R. E. Brown characterized as “evenly divided”.[9] Most scholars accept the two-source hypothesis and place the composition of Luke between 80 and 90, although a few scholars postulate an earlier date of authorship. The Two-Source Hypothesis is the most commonly accepted solution to the synoptic problem among biblical scholars, which posits that there are two sources to Gospel of Matthew and Gospel of Luke: the Gospel of Mark and a lost, hypothetical sayings collection called Q. The Two-Source Hypothesis was first…”
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gospel-of-Luke
____________________________________________
Re: Death of St. Stephen….
Stephen was not executed by Nero… But, rather tried and found guilty of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin, and stoned to death…
“After Jesus’s death, Stephen’s outspoken support of Jesus and the Christian disciples, led to his being tried for blasphemy by the Sanhedrin, and stoned to death.”
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/St-Stephen
Now, that posted, I have nothing further on this subject…
Our President….
http://i42.tinypic.com/6z1nat.jpg
Well, I guess ‘mxyzptlk the misfit’ has not only not followed through with his threat to expose my anonymity by the posting of my name, address and any other info. he could gather on the blog as he said he would, but he hasn’t even shown up to explain why….wonder why?
Who’s been spanked now mxyzptik the misfit?
bigotbawks,
What’s really funny is the way you AGW deniers foolishly insist that some cold weather during Winter in the Northern hemisphere refutes the AGW theory.
Don’t think rove can hide behind exec. priv. any longer. The wheels of justice grind slowly, but we just may get there.
I wonder if cheney could be supoenaed by congress, and if he’d have to appear, I’d like some questioning of him on the plame treason.
ANTI
Posted January 26, 2009 at 9:48 pm | Permalink
Our President….
http://i42.tinypic.com/6z1nat.jpg
——————————
LOL!!!!
Obama sure is enjoying himself.
Little young, ain’t she?
http://www.iexplore.com/world_travel/Washington+DC/Climate
“Winters can be very cold, often with snowstorms, and temperatures in December to February range from about 39°F to 21°F (4°C to -6°C).”
Boxlock20
Posted January 26, 2009 at 9:44 pm | Permalink
Interesting Statistics
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law,
St. Paul, Minnesota, points out facts of 2008 Presidential election:
Number of States won by: Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29
yadda, yadda, yadda . . .
=======================================================
Funny thing is, in an email sent to snopes, said prof says he had nothing to do with these so called statistics. Nor did the sheriff who sent him the email.
Kinda sounds like the typical con bs about Obama being:
1. Not a US citizen
2. A muslim
3. A commie
4. etc, etc..
You really can’t make this crap up. The cons will do just about anything to make themselves feel good. Boxboy, you really need to check your sources before attempting to foist nonsense on intelligent people.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp
Good grief Walker, he’s posted another bogus email reference again… Let’s see, that’s at least three now… I wish he would check his sources, before trying to call the rest of us his pet names….
Oh, ya, I forgot: The statistics mentioned were for the 2000 election, not the 2008. The email has been circulated since 200, right after the election, and mostly false then. Can’t you get anything right?
200 should be 2000.
Chas, it goes to the root of just how moronic boxboy is.
Ya know, I would never out anybody, but boxboy is sounding more and more like franklin. I guess once a fanatic, always a fanatic.
And much of the figures were correct JM.
You failed to point that out.
But then the DimLibs always do that.
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:12 pm | Permalink
ANTI
Posted January 26, 2009 at 9:48 pm | Permalink
Our President….
http://i42.tinypic.com/6z1nat.jpg
——————————
LOL!!!!
Obama sure is enjoying himself.
Little young, ain’t she
=====================================================
Only an individual with a slug for a brain would think something like that. You really are a POS.
And the percentage of figures presented were correct for 2008 as well.
But then you would never admit to the truth so what’s the point.
#
Boxlock20
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:25 pm | Permalink
And much of the figures were correct JM.
You failed to point that out.
But then the DimLibs always do that.
=========================================================
And much of them are not, and only a moron would find it necessary to post phony crap, but that seems to be your stock in trade. Tell me, do you have the word, “loser” tattooed on your forehead? It would match your posts.
#
Boxlock20
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:27 pm | Permalink
And the percentage of figures presented were correct for 2008 as well.
But then you would never admit to the truth so what’s the point.
========================================================
Your busted again, bozo. If the whole email is false, everything attached to it is suspect. Climb back in your cave and hibernate for awhile, loser; that fat is starting to crowd out what little brains you have left.
Walker, a buddy of mine, who does some studio recording work for singers, and advertisers, has been playing around with something recently… He says it hit him in the last few months before the election….
He says that he has measured the tone levels of the Talk Radio Moguls… Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, Savage, Beck, and others…
He has discovered something interesting, even if it might not mean anything in the larger picture… He has discovered that the droning tonal sounds of all of these Talk Show people come within a certain range… Some of the females are about an octave above the males… Limbaugh is about a tonal third lower on the scale than Hannity, Levin about a 5th higher…
He has begun to wonder if the tone of the droning might have some sort of effect on listeners who are already prone to hearing the “messages” they spew out daily… and he wonders how much, if any, hypnotic effects the drones of Talk Radio has on people…
At this point, he is only asking questions… I hope he keeps working on the situation…
The tattoo? Not like you do dumba$$. The essence of the information was correct, but you are too stupid to admit it.
Typical of a DimLib.
#
JMWalker
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:23 pm | Permalink
Ya know, I would never out anybody, but boxboy is sounding more and more like franklin. I guess once a fanatic, always a fanatic.
******
Franklin the paid troll (proll) sold insurance, boxy sells medical equipment. I don’t think they are the same person. While he was as much of a hack, Rossell was much smarter then Box. Too bad for boxtop, because Paul was none too smart.
Sorry, fellows, just an empirical fact.
TOP PRIORITIES FOR AMERICA, PEW POLL:
Economy 85
Jobs 82
Terrorism 76
Social Security 63
Education 61
Energy 60
Medicare 60
Health Care Costs 59
Deficit 53
Health Insurance for Uninsured 52
Helping Poor 50
Crime 46
Moral Breakdown 45
Strengthen Military 44
Reduce Middle Class Taxes 43
Environment 41
Immigration 41
Lobbyists 36
Global Trade 31
Global Warming 30
(Cosmos, you are UTTERLY FAILING to get your message out. Post some more!)
http://people-press.org/report/485/economy-top-policy-priority
Oh crap Chas, you are just getting you butts beat because the DimLibs have no one smart enough, talented enough or informed enough to compete with the conservative talk show hosts.
Admit it, DimLibs are….well very Dim.
And Rush goes on which TV Shows??? Ya know, to set things straight?? CNN?? MSNBC?? ABC?? CBS?? Noooooo…. he goes on Hannity, on FOX!!! LOL!!! Preaching to the choir!! What a buffoon!!!
Gee, box, no wonder you like his $iht!!
Between JM, Steven, Chas, et. al, the collective intelligence goes down the more of you are posting at the same time.
What a group of losers. You guys make me laugh, and be so thankful we are like oil and water. You guys sewer water.
What do you guys do anyway, making sport of my occupation, which by the way has done quite well for me and my family.
I would really like to know. I mean with Chas for instance…the faux minister, ha, what a joke. And the rest of you, I have a feeling your total worth is limited to this blog…jokes all.
Hey faux preacher, ever look at the ratings of Fox News compared to any of the others.
They are eating the others lunches, and sending them home for more, just to eat that too.
Better things to do than toy with imbeciles, night all.
Box, you can keep refusing to believe that I am what I say I am… Your measley, no account opinion just doesnt change FACTS…
Whether you like it or not, my vocation has not changed in over 30 years… So, you keep right on posting LIES about me… Some day you might find out what a huge LIAR you are!! Better yet, why not ask Brownlee… He knows too… Probably even that wouldnt change your lying…
Sorry for your lack of mental acuity….
good night; good luck; god bless —-
whatever you conceive god to be!!
blessings ALL!!
so mote it be!!
JMWalker
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:26 pm | Permalink
JimJohnson
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:12 pm | Permalink
ANTI
Posted January 26, 2009 at 9:48 pm | Permalink
Our President….
http://i42.tinypic.com/6z1nat.jpg
——————————
LOL!!!!
Obama sure is enjoying himself.
Little young, ain’t she
=====================================================
Only an individual with a slug for a brain would think something like that. You really are a POS.
——————
Post it one more time JM, you fu cking angel.
#
Boxlock20
Posted January 26, 2009 at 11:34 pm | Permalink
The tattoo? Not like you do dumba$$. The essence of the information was correct, but you are too stupid to admit it.
Typical of a DimLib.
=====================================================
Actually, the email was false from the start, and you were stupid enough to post it. Typical of one with a bb for a brain.
#
JimJohnson
Posted January 27, 2009 at 12:05 am | Permalink
Post it one more time JM, you fu cking angel.
==================================================
Sure: http://i42.tinypic.com/6z1nat.jpg
An ordinary person would not think of the picture as you seem to. My impression of you hasn’t changed. You are indeed a POS.
Snope Facts: Gore won in counties that had on average, a murder rate that was 59% higher then the counties won by Bush.
59% 59% 59% 59% 59% 59%
http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp
By calculating the murder rate for each county and then taking the averages, we found a murder rate (defined as number of murders per 100,000 residents) of about 5.2 for the average Gore county and 3.3 for the average Bush county. But since people, rather than counties, commit murders, a more appropriate approach was to calculate the total number of murders in the counties won by each candidate and divide that figure by the total number of residents in those counties. This more appropriate method yielded the following average murder rates in counties won by each candidate:
Gore: 6.5
Bush: 4.1
“I would really like to know. I mean with Chas for instance…the faux minister, ha, what a joke. And the rest of you, I have a feeling your total worth is limited to this blog…jokes all.”
Such a petty, little man (as the Price family would say). Your pathetic stupidity is way beyond comprehension.
ESAD, mofo… Hope you’re able to say good-bye to your family, if you really have, which I seriously doubt…
Chas
Posted January 26, 2009 at 9:45 pm | Permalink
“S. Brown agrees that the references to the Jerusalem temple’s destruction are seen as evidence of a post-70 date. Brown, Schuyler. The origins of Christianity: a historical introduction to the New Testament. New York: Oxford University Press, 1993. p. 24?
James… Nowhere in the Bible is the death of Paul recorded… Nowhere… Your ranting on that and on the destruction of the Temple are both spurious arguments… Your argument is that since Luke has neither the destruction of the Temple, nor the death of Paul, that means Luke comes before either event…
================================
So, you are saying that even with your secular scholars you cannot disprove when Paul died either.
Paul most certainly died in the time of Nero, the persecutor of Christians. Nero died in 68 A.D.
It therefore makes a perfect follow on that Paul died before that date.
Ranting? No.
It makes perfect sense that the destruction of the temple was not recorded in Luke or Acts, because it had not happened in the lifetimes of Luke or Paul, thus not recorded.
Chas, you are so desperate to prove your secular brethren correct, you ignore the obvious.
As I posted earlier, MOST of the N.T. scholars in the world do not agree with you… But, I guess you would rather sling your usual ad hominems, and remain in the small minority… I haave even posted links to others, in the majority, who believe Luke/Acts is written between 80 – 90 A.D.
But, you will believe what you choose… and so will I… Have fun with your minority opinion…
#
Chas
Posted January 27, 2009 at 2:25 am | Permalink
As I posted earlier, MOST of the N.T. scholars in the world do not agree with you… But, I guess you would rather sling your usual ad hominems, and remain in the small minority… I haave even posted links to others, in the majority, who believe Luke/Acts is written between 80 – 90 A.D.
But, you will believe what you choose… and so will I… Have fun with your minority opinion…
=================================
Most Biblical scholars agree that Paul died under the persecution of Nero.
Nero died in 68 A.D.
You and your scholars have provided no proof otherwise.
So, what your saying Chas, is that part of the Bible is false, since it was written after Luke and Paul died?
Do you also believe in the Knights Templar and a bloodline of Jesus? Even DNA tests have proven this wrong.
What latest fad are you are promoting in the totally secular version of the Holy Bible?
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Book of Acts
Similarly, the book of Acts which was written after the gospel of Luke by Luke himself. Acts is a history of the Christian church right after Jesus’ ascension. Acts also fails to mention the incredibly significant events of 70 A.D. which would have been extremely relevant and prophetically important yet it is not mentioned in Acts. Why? Because it was written pre-70 AD.
Acts does not include the accounts of “Nero’s persecution of the Christians in A.D. 64 or the deaths of James (A.D. 62), Paul (A.D. 64), and Peter (A.D. 65),”1 and we have further evidence that it was written very early and not long after Jesus’ ascension into heaven.
“At the earliest, Acts cannot have been written prior to the latest firm chronological marker recorded in the book—Festus’s appointment as procurator (Acts 24:27), which, on the basis of independent sources, appears to have occurred between A.D. 55 and 59.”3
“It is increasingly admitted that the Logia [Q] was very early, before 50 A.D., and Mark likewise if Luke wrote the Acts while Paul was still alive. Luke’s Gospel comes before the Acts (Acts 1:1). The date of Acts is still in dispute, but the early date (about A.D. 63) is gaining support constantly.”4
If what is said of Acts is true, this would mean that Luke was written at least before A.D. 63 and possibly before 55 – 59 since Acts is the second in the series of writings by Luke. This means that the gospel of Luke was written within 30 years of Jesus’ death. Make & Fried
The majority scholars were wrong and Luke was correct. (proven by architecture)
The physician and historian Luke authored both the gospel bearing his name and the book of Acts, which together constitute about one-quarter of the entire New Testament. Consequently, a critical issue is whether Luke was a historian who could be trusted to get things right. The general consensus of both liberal and conservative scholars is that Luke is very accurate as a historian. He is erudite, he is eloquent, his Greek approaches classical quality, he writes as an educated man, and archaeological discoveries are showing over and over again that Luke is accurate in what he has to say. For instance, in Luke 3:1 he refers to Lysanias being the tetrarch of Abiliene in about A.D. 27. For years scholars pointed to this as evidence that Luke did not know what he was talking about, since everybody knew that Lysanias was not a tetrarch but rather the ruler of Chalcis half a century earlier. If Luke can not get that basic fact right, they suggested, nothing he has written can be trusted. That is when archaeology stepped in. An inscription was later found from the time of Tiberius, from A.D. 14 to 37, which names Lysanias as tetrarch in Abila near Damascus – just as Luke had written. It turned out there had been two government officials named Lysanias! Once more Luke was shown to be exactly right.
Another example is Luke’s reference in Acts 17:6 to “politarchs,” which is translated as “city officials” by the NIV, in the city of Thessalonica. For a long time people thought Luke was mistaken, because no evidence of the term ‘politarchs’ had been found in any ancient Roman documents. However, an inscription on a first-century arch was later found that begins, “In the time of the politarchs ….” You can go to the British Museum and see it for yourself. And then, lo and behold, archaeologists have found more than thirty-five inscriptions that mention politarchs, several of these in Thessalonica from the same period Luke was referring to. Once again the critics were wrong and Luke was shown to be right. Given the large portion of the New Testament written by him, it is extremely significant that Luke has been established to be a scrupulously accurate historian, even in the smallest details. One prominent archaeologist carefully examined Luke’s references to thirty-two countries, fifty-four cities, and nine islands, finding not a single mistake. Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, When Critics Ask, p. 385.
Chas believes in the mysterious “Q” theory that a writer named “Q” wrote Luke and Acts. The problem with Chas’s theory is the Q-source has never been found.
Josephus was a scholar of Biblical history contemporary to Luke, but Josephus was much younger (born about 37 CE)
By the time Josephus published “Antiquities of the Jews” in 93 CE, Luke would have been 80 plus years old. The age difference supports that Luke finished writing long before Josephus began to write Antiquities. In addition, the last known location for Luke was at Rome about 64 – 66 CE when the Apostle Paul was martyred. Perhaps Luke did not escape martyrdom at that time.
“The Gospel of Luke was available in Rome where Josephus lived.” Luke had traveled with the Apostle Paul to Rome. He aided the Apostle Paul during the years 60 to 62 CE. During this time, the Apostle Paul wrote the prison letters and mentions Luke two times
“Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings (Colossians 4:14).
“. . . and Luke, my fellow workers” (Philemon 24).
Archaeological evidence: (Since Chas likes to rely on science to prove the Bible)
In 1989, The classic scholar, Dr. Colin J. Hemer published The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History. Dr. Hemer’s work compares the texts written into the book of Acts to archaeological discoveries of the past 200 years. A careful study taken from Dr. Hemer’s work (pages 109 to 158: “Specific
Local Knowledge”) verifies the Apostle Paul’s mission travels did occur (at the 99.9% onfidence level). Since the unique events written in the book Acts are matched by archaeological records, Dr. Hemer concludes that Paul and Luke had to be there to record such unique events.
Since the archaeological evidence matches the book of Acts so well, Dr. Hemer’s research led him to conclude that the book of Acts was written about 62 CE, which aligns with biblical conservatives. Consider a quote from Dr. Hemer.
“Acts is more closely integrated with contemporary events than any other New Testament book.” (Ibid, p 376).
Those opposed to using data to draw conclusion about the book of Acts can only do so based on preconceived bias (such as the assumption that supernatural events are not possible).
So, it appears that Chas, who relies on science for proof of things, ignores that the mysterious writings of “Q” were never found.
Chas also ignores the facts that Luke is the most historically accurate writer in the New Testament which is backed by archaeological work.
Chas has the naturalistic world view that relies on some imaginary writer that never existed, written in a time (80 – 100 BCE) that cannot be proven and uses the arm flailing hyperbole of historical re-inventors. In short, if it doesn’t fit the secular, humanistic view, then adjust history to make fit.
Logic and available evidence support that the gospel of Luke was written about 60 CE and Acts about 62 CE.
I must admit that Chas does indeed have strong faith. But is faith that leads the easily fooled humanists by the nose and makes them ignore the man behind the curtain, pulling the strings.
“Fair enough, but why is that our job?”-Rage
Really dude?
Why is it your job?
Because your an American and YOU ARE THE OVERSIGHT.
We’re a schitt country now BECAUSE of that attitude. We vote into office people who supposedly have our best interest in mind.
Unless you’re a complete idiot, you know that just isn’t the case (from either side). There is a 9-14% approval rating for Congress (granted that’s the highest it’s been since February of ‘08…must be the “Obaama effect”) and there is a reason no one approves of them. THEY CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES…we all understand that. And those who don’t live in Never-Never Land or in some delusional state.
He asked that you read the Stimulus Package, so you would understand it and not let the teevee think it through for you.
I’ve read it through in about 30 seconds and her’s what I’ve found:
“This year, taxpayers will receive an Economic Stimulus Payment.
This is a very
exciting new program that I will explain using the Q and A format:
Q.
What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.
Q.
Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.
Q.
So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. Only a smidgen.
Q.
What is the purpose of this payment?
A.
The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set,
thus stimulating the economy.
Q.
But isn’t that stimulating the economy of China ?
A. Shut up.
Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the US economy by spending your
stimulus check wisely:
If you spend that money at Wal-Mart, all the money will go to China.
If you spend it on gasoline it will go to the Arabs.
If you purchase a computer it will go to India.
If you purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras, and
Guatemala (unless you buy organic).
If you buy a car it will go to Japan.
If you purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan.
And none of it will help the American economy.
We need to keep that money here in America.
You can keep the money in America by
spending it at yard sales, going to a baseball game, or spend it on prostitutes,
beer and wine (domestic, micro brews ONLY), or tattoos and local bands’ shwag since those are the only businesses
still in the US.
correction: “Q” theory states that Mathew, Mark and Luke were written by the mysterious writer. ergo: according to the humanist view, i.e. the “Q” theory, Luke could not have written Acts.
Of course, I’ve already documented that “Q” theory is wrong, has never been found and is only supported by secular humanists who want the Bible to fit in their world and their churches of secular convenient thought. (i.e., deny the writings of Christ as written by Luke (also Paul) as Gospel.
Finished for now.
We’ll wait for the arm flailing explosive reaction from Chas later on.
Mare, I’m a bit shakey today…I need mah meds. Can you hook me up?
Here’s proof of my delusions of persecution:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090126/tuk-brown-sees-new-world-order-after-cri-a7ad41d.html
It is coming.
Que Carl Orff’s “Carmina Burana–O’ Fortuna”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuERh0jBjh8
JM, take a look, what I posted had more truth than fiction to it, you are simply too weak a character and biased to admit it.
Here, take a look jerk:
http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/326-where-is-obamaland/
And Steve, Chas is no minister, at least one that anyone calls on for pastoral duties. He spends far more time attacking people and swearing while blogging than serving. He serves only himself!
Oh and Steven, you are simply too easy.
You lose your composure and go off like an idiot, with no control, at the simple click of my mouse.
Pleefer posted January 27, 2009 at 5:04 am
——————–
‘Dave Barry Explains the Tax Rebate’
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north622.html
I can do no better than to quote him verbatim.
Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.
Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.
Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. Only a smidgen.
Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set, thus stimulating the economy.
Q. But isn’t that stimulating the economy of China?
A. Shut up.
———————-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Faber
Dr. Marc Faber concluded his monthly bulletin (June 2008) with the Following:
The federal government is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer/Software it will go to India. If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car it will go to Germany. If we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan and none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prostitutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in US. I’ve been doing my part .[4]
Why is it your job?
Because your an American and YOU ARE THE OVERSIGHT.
. . . like I said anything that contradicted that.
My point, which you completely misconstrued, is that someone who demands other people research legislation–like it’s some obscure,, mysterious thing–should follow their own advice.
I find it amusing that you presume to lecture me about overseeing government. Few have posted more snippets of law and congressional debates on this forum.
Rage,
Pleefer’s idea of “oversight” is copy/pasting Dave Barry.
“So, what your saying Chas, is that part of the Bible is false, since it was written after Luke and Paul died?”
NO shiffur brains… I said no such thing, you moron… I posted links as to the date of Luke/Acts…. I also posted that MOST scholars agree that LUKE/ACTS was written between 80-90 A.D.
Where you get the rest of your garbage is beyond me…. You just dont like to have anybody prove that YOU are in a minority opinon….
I didnt disagree with you as to the date of the Death of Paul… What I said is that it is nowhere in the Bible… as to when Paul died…
However, there are some scholars who believe Paul died much later than 62-68 A.D. Some even believe Paul managed to travel north as far as the Roman provinces in what is now England…
As to your allusions re: the Davinci Code, and the connections to “Holy Grail”, hey, I like good FICTION….
James says >>>>
“Since the archaeological evidence matches the book of Acts so well, Dr. Hemer’s research led him to conclude that the book of Acts was written about 62 CE, which aligns with biblical conservatives. Consider a quote from Dr. Hemer.”
“Chas believes in the mysterious “Q” theory that a writer named “Q” wrote Luke and Acts. The problem with Chas’s theory is the Q-source has never been found.”
___________________________________________
James… Dr. Hemer did resseaarch that supports Biblical CONSERVATIVES… You know full well, I am not one of those… BUT, Higher Criticism is NOT secular, nor humanistic. It is a method of doing historical Biblical studies… MOST Conservative groups, including yours, James, do not follow the Higher Criticism methods… which is why you balk so strongly against Higher Critical methods..
Your allegations that I believe “Q” wrote Matthew and Luke is plain BS… “Q” stands for the word “Quella” — meaning Common…. “Q” means a Common Source… NOT a writer… The “Q” source is said to be the reason that Luke has material common only to LUKE, And Matthew has Material common only to MATTHEW…
It is called the 2-source hypothesis, because it is believed COMMONLY, by MOST N.T. Scholars that the authors of Luke and Matthew used the “Q” source (a collection of sayings and eventss, etc., from the life of Jesus) in addition to MARK… Mark is believed by MOST N.T. Scholars to have been written between 70 – 72 A.D. and is also considered by MOST N.T. scholars to have been the FIRST of the Gospels…
[Google "two source hypothesis" for further references]
There haas long been a smaller group of N.T. scholars, who oppose “higher criticism” who have pushed and prodded for different dates….
But, James, YOU sir, are totally wrong by making the accusing claim that “Q” is the author of ANY of the Gospels…
Oh, BTW, I have NO clue where you get your silly reference to any of the Gospels being written between 80-100 BCE…
YOUR quote James >>>>
“Chas has the naturalistic world view that relies on some imaginary writer that never existed, written in a time (80 – 100 BCE) that cannot be proven and uses the arm flailing hyperbole of historical re-inventors. In short, if it doesn’t fit the secular, humanistic view, then adjust history to make fit.”
“Chas” shares –
“…that I believe “Q” wrote Matthew and Luke is plain BS… “Q” stands for the word “Quella” — meaning Common…. “Q” means a Common Source… NOT a writer…”
You’re tellin’ me James Bond’s gadget-maker DIDN’T write the Gospels?!
Wow. That’s gonna shake up theological circles big time.
Chas writes:
“Oh, BTW, I have NO clue where you get your silly reference to any of the Gospels being written between 80-100 BCE…”
———————-
Definitions of bce on the Web:
of the period before the Common Era; preferred by some writers who are not Christians; “in 200 BCE”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
“okobserver” snarks –
“…of the period before the Common Era; preferred by some writers who are not Christians; “in 200 BCE””
Nice dodge.
Should be CE or AD Chas, not BCE, my mistake. But that’s what you believe, that most of the Bible was written 80-100 A.D.
You have no facts to back you up on this theory except for speculation of some ‘what if’ researchers.
I, on the other hand, presented archaeological evidence, along with contemporaneous historians and other evidence to make my claim.
You have shown me nothing.