Anthony Stevens-Arroyo, a university scholar, opposes the Freedom of Choice Act, which would statutorily establish that women have a fundamental right to choose to bear a child or terminate a pregnancy. But he doesn’t understand why the Catholic Church and some pro-life groups are exaggerating the likelihood of the act ever becoming law and the impact if it did become law – such as the claim that it would force the closure of Catholic hospitals. “I respect the propagandistic value of fear tactics, but are they necessary in this case?” he wrote. He also wondered if the Catholic Church would expend the same amount of effort and money opposing immigration laws that violate Catholic teaching.
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45 Comments
If the catholic church wishes to protect its female membership from having freedom to choose what her body is used for, they have every right to teach that in their churches to their members. What they don’t have is the right to dictate catholic teaching to the majority non-catholic population. A woman’s right to choose who and what occupies her body is fundamental, and it shouldn’t be up to a pack of angry bishops to deny her that right! Let the bishops attend to their churches and their members, and quit trying to force their views and doctrines into our laws. We are not a theocracy!
FEAR— the tool of Satan and the Republicans.
LOVE–the tool of Christ and the Democrats.
Choose wisely who you will follow.
mxyzptlk…Are you the person I met yesterday?
Jed..you don’t get it. The Church is against killing the unborn as a moral issue. It’s not an ideological issue..therefore they are committed to bringing justice to the unborn. It’s not a matter of choice to the Church, it’s a matter of Christian duty. That will never change.
I think the Catholics oppose choice, birth control, etc…because they want more Catholics. I don’t think it’s necessarily a moral issue at all, I think it’s a money issue.
We met once in HS Mary, but not yesterday.
Nicki,
Catholics demonize sex in as many ways as they can, not because they expect you to quit having sex or even kinky sex, but because they want to create as much guilt as possible. They’ve done a good job at it because guilt is what fills collection plates, as they’ve known for centuries. Guilt built their empire!
Mary,
The problem with bringing ideological justice to the unborn (or anyone else) is that the justice they bring creates considerably more injustice for an awful lot of people, born and unborn. It may be good for their consciences, but it wreaks hell on the rest of us.
My granddaughter is pregnant and was just given the news last week that her blood work shows a high risk of her carrying a Down Syndrome baby. There are two more tests yet to be done this week, a sonogram and an amniocentesis, but if those come back positive, she says she’ll probably get an abortion, that she has no desire to bring that kind of misery into the world. These bishops are saying she absolutely has to, no matter the horrendous financial and emotional costs to her, her family the state and her baby. That’s what happens when ideology crashes headlong into reality!
Keep in mind this is the same crowd that got outraged because Krispy Kreme was giving out free donuts on Inauguration Day. Apparently that meant they were abortion donuts.
http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2009/01/pro-life_group_up_in_arms_over.php
then you got goofy people like this nurse. It would seem to me that effective birth control cuts down on abortions but them some people think birth is the same http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/01/14/Woman_Says_Anti-Abortion_Nurse_Removed_IUD_Without_Permission_Then_Lectured_Her.htm
and Mary it was me you met yesterday.
For the sake of education, the current Catholic church doctrine does not demonize sex, nor prohibit it. It does say that sex outside of wedlock is immoral. Other than that, it is all OK.
The Church also views abortion as murder because its stance is that life begins at conception.
The Church teaching on birth control is that any artificial method should not be used because it takes God out of the equation (paraphrased quite a bit).
Now, obviously not all good Catholics agree with these things.
Jed,
You are exactly the small minded thinker that the left loves to have on their side. Any shred of intelligence and you would be at least in the middle. Fortunately, we will all meet our maker and have to answer for our flawed thinking. A child is a child at conception. The Catholic Church is only protecting innocent lives that people like you seek to destroy. I know this as a post-abortive father and a Catholic and unless you have sat through an abortion and later witnessed the birth of a child you have no perspective and speak from pure ignorance.
Scott,
I’ve winessed many abortions and also witnessed the birth of my children, and believe me, I’ve witnessed a whole lot of things that are worse than death. Unfortunately, you are the one speaking from ignorance; you assume that the word of the church is infallible. Reality says otherwise. Take a long look at the world some time.
Brian,
“For the sake of education, the current Catholic church doctrine does not demonize sex, nor prohibit it.”
Yet its history is so rooted in dictating sex, that while they believe they’ve left that part of it behind, it’s still very much behind today’s doctrine. Google “Malleus Malificarum” and read it thoroughly, and see if you don’t find similar attitudes buried in what you hear in today’s church.
Excuse me, it’s “Malleus Maleficarum.”
Perhaps the Catholic church would had been herding all the catholics back to Mexico since it USED to be both a Catholic and abortion prohibited country…but so many women died they couldn’t keep that law on the books.
Don’t tell me this is a fundamental christian issue. It’s a human issue to have freedom of reproductive choice.
The Bishops Letter on social justice tends strongly toward socialism and makes me look like a far-right conservative. Why is the Church not pushing that as hard as they push against FOCA?
9% of Kansas hospitals are Catholic. They will shut down after Obamanation signs into law the Freedom of Choice Act, rather than be forced into the mangling, dismembering, poisoning, and beheading of babies. Their closure will disproportionately cut the availability of medical and emergency service to rural and low-income communities. 3 of Wichita’s 5 general hospitals are Catholic and would shut down. One of the 3 Level I trauma centers in Kansas, Via Christi, is Catholic and would also close. Some of the Protestant hospitals must also have some non-negotiable principles built in regarding respect for the value and dignity of human life, and would also cease operation.
But don’t worry, if Obamanation signs FOCA as he promised the abortion lobby he would, you can always raise a lot more state and local taxes to build new hospitals that will hire abortionist quacks.
Just don’t ask any help from pro-life churches.
“They will shut down after Obamanation signs into law the Freedom of Choice Act”
I doubt it.
“Jill Morrison, senior counsel at the National Women’s Law Center – not a pro-life organization – indicated that the federal conscience clause law, known as “the Church Amendment,” states that simply receiving public funding does not turn a hospital into a “state actor.” In other words, Catholic hospitals and attendant staff would not lose their rights to conscientious non-participation because of FOCA.”
No they won’t Parkay. Get over yourself.
#
bth
Posted January 21, 2009 at 6:32 pm | Permalink
“Jill Morrison, senior counsel at the National Women’s Law Center – not a pro-life organization – indicated that the federal conscience clause law, known as “the Church Amendment,” states that simply receiving public funding does not turn a hospital into a “state actor.” In other words, Catholic hospitals and attendant staff would not lose their rights to conscientious non-participation because of FOCA.”
=====================
There was thread about that awhile back.
It appears that some hospitals have designated, volunteer ‘abortion’ physicians.
The thread had something to do with some Doctor being sued because he wouldn’t perform an abortion. At least I think it was on this blog.
P-Mom,
“No they won’t Parkay. Get over yourself.”
Please don’t ask Troyboy to get over himself; without himself, that poor excuse for a human being would have nothing at all, not even faith.
As far as the federal conscience clause law goes, I’m not convinced that would help the Church hospitals. I’m from Boston and we had a similar case where our Catholic Charities adoption agency could no longer “discriminate” against gays. The agency decided to shut down rather than compromise their values. Read the article => http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/03/11/catholic_charities_stuns_state_ends_adoptions/
Looks like the anti-abortion terrorists are up to their old tricks.
http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/38140094.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUr
Another day, another crime by the terrorists. Thankfully we have the first elected President of the 21st century who is serious about fighting terrorism, rather than that unelected goon who likes to hang banners.
Oops, I failed to mention he’s a Christian terrorist. Had it been a Muslim, no doubt there would have been a huge uproar. But Christians are allowed to do terrorist acts and the media is silent about fundamentalist Christianity being a religion of hate.
Hal,
“I’m from Boston and we had a similar case where our Catholic Charities adoption agency could no longer “discriminate” against gays. The agency decided to shut down rather than compromise their values.”
A clear example of how their ideology is more important to them than children in need.
Jed,
When you say “Their ideology” I assume you mean the Catholic Church? I wanted to verify that before I respond.
Regarding your granddaughter, there’s no easy solution and I wish you and your family the best. I have a Down Syndrome nephew. The lie that many pro-choice people will tell you is that an abortion will solve your problem. The truth is that I have seen and heard of many women who have regretted having an abortion. I have not seen or heard of any woman after giving birth regretting they didn’t have an abortion.
“You are exactly the small minded thinker that the left loves to have on their side.”
Well Jed, I would NEVER call you small minded, but I’m damn glad you are on MY side!!!!!!!!!!
Small minded? heheheh. I think that poster, well call “pot”. He’s meeting kettle…
Hal,
Yes, I do mean the church’s attitudes toward gay people. Seems the church would rather see kids suffer in an obviously broken foster care system than adopted by loving gay couples.
Regarding my granddaughter, we don’t have an answer from the sonogram yet, and then there’s still amnio before we know anything for certain. Since my granddaughter is the one who will have to live with the consequences either way, it’s her choice to make. Whatever decision she arrives at, she will have our support.
Thanks Farm gal!
Jed,
Couldn’t you make the same argument about gay people pushing their own agenda at any cost? Would you honestly expect someone to betray their moral values? Does the end justify the means? If you were put in a similar situation, would you be willing to compromise your own values?
Reading over your posts, it appears to me that you are letting your negative emotions (fear, anger, disappointment?) cloud your judgement. Please understand I don’t mean that as a slam but as an observation for you to do with as you will.
I have seen firsthand a number of “unwanted pregnancies” in my own family, some ending in life, some with abortion. My brother had to drive his own daughter to the abortion clinic with tears in his eyes begging her not to go through with it. But she did. As sad as he is, he still loves her unconditionally. So I have the greatest respect for you when you say “Whatever decision she arrives at, she will have our support.” It is a testimony to the great love you must have for her.
Hal,
“If you were put in a similar situation, would you be willing to compromise your own values?”
If I were put in a similar situation? Yeah, it would probably break my heart to have to allow catholics to adopt an otherwise unwanted child, but I would, given the alternatives. Every child deserves a loving family.
See? That’s why I LOVE JED!!!!!!!
I assure you haj, that NO ONE wants to force you to be gay. We dont want you.
Really.
No kidding.
There arent enough toaster ovens in the world….
Hal,
” My brother had to drive his own daughter to the abortion clinic with tears in his eyes begging her not to go through with it.”
The difference is that I would not be begging her to change her mind. If she says there is “enough misery in the world without me adding to it,” I would accept her decision. I brought her up to be an intelligent, thoughtful and caring woman, and it would be hypocritical of me to assume she hadn’t thought it through and come to the best conclusion possible under the circumstances.
Farm Gal,
How many to you have to convert to get a toaster oven? I could use one.
Hee hee heee.
Just one.
At least that’s how it worked for me.
But now…. I have so many toaster ovens.. I’d be glad to give you one. Still in the box!
And you dont have to do a thing. By grace alone and all, ya know?
hehehe. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.
Dude, seriously. I love your posts.
“it would probably break my heart to have to allow catholics to adopt ”
And there’s the anger coming through again Jed. I thought maybe we were having an adult discussion here but apparently you would rather rant than discuss. Perhaps your anger is misplaced?
“there is enough misery in the world without me adding to it”
planned or unplanned, seeing the potential for life as just misery is just sad.
Irony is always lost on those most in need of it.
ksfarmgrrl,
you seem to have the social skills of a 2-year old so I won’t even merit your comment with any type of reasonable response.
Hal,
“And there’s the anger coming through again Jed.”
You bet there’s anger! When I see my friends mistreated, discriminated against, persecuted and killed for no other reason than being who they are, I do get angry! And when a church, of all the institutions one should expect better from is at the forefront of the bigotry, egging it on and preaching prejudice, I get angry all over again! If someday you can put that bigotry aside, maybe we can discuss the issues like gentlemen. Until then, you can expect a fight from me when you callously hurt those I care about!
Hal,
“planned or unplanned, seeing the potential for life as just misery is just sad.”
You say you have a nephew with Down Syndrome. Have you really ever looked at him? Are you aware of the endless surgeries, the frustration, the treatment of such kids at the hands of society, the guaranteed early-onset Alzheimers that accompany Down Syndrome? Sure, there are occasional moments of joy, but not nearly enough to watch someone I love suffer that much. I worked for a while with such kids, and spent most of my life caring for people with other severe disabilities. Life alone is not enough; there has to be an acceptable quality of life to make that life valuable!
“there has to be an acceptable quality of life to make that life valuable!”
I’m sorry Jed but I have to disagree with you here. ALL life is precious and should be treated that way. Where do you set the bar for “quality of life”. That’s a real slippery slope. I have a sister with MS. Is her life any less valuable than yours or mine? The quality of life cannot be measured by your physical attributes but by what you make of it.
Yes, I have taken a good look at my nephew. He has not needed any special surgeries. Health wise, he has led a pretty normal life. He is 22 now. He graduated high school, went to his prom, loves to read and write. Enjoys bowling and playing WII. In fact, he has a job that he works a few hours a week at.
No, I won’t try to kid you into thinking he will live a “normal” life by our standards. He will never drive a car, have his own apartment and will always need someone there for him. But with that said I know that he has meant the world to my brother. You say “there are occasional moments of joy” but the truth is there are occasional moments of sorrow. I’m sure my brother would prefer to see his son “normal” but that’s just not in the cards.
Jed think about this. In your previous post you said “I see my friends mistreated, discriminated against, persecuted and killed for no other reason than being who they are”. How is aborting a Down Syndrome baby any different?
Hal,
Apparently your nephew is one of the extremely lucky few.
Over half of all Down’s babies are born with severe heart
defects, only some of which can be repaired. Those who
don’t receive surgery in the first year usually die, and not quickly.
Many also require painful surgeries to reduce the size
of their tongues so they can eat normally. Many are also
so severely mentally challenged that they can never function
outside of the home. Those who do get out are treated to endless
cruelty by upstanding citizens. Families where one member requires
80% of the available attention often suffer too, with high divorce rates
and neglect of other children. Those not lucky enough to have been
born to a family with the uncommon emotional and financial means to
care for them end up being continually tortured by the minimum-wage staff
in hellhole state institutions (I’ve witnessed that one myself). Even if
everything else goes well (and that’s a mighty big if) and they reach
the age of 40, nearly all are suffering from early-onset Alzheimers.
If that’s a life you want to wish on a kid, maybe you ought to have a
long look in the mirror. There really are things worse than abortion.