“There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation,” wrote journalist Jeffrey Goldberg. “This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.
“The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.
“The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and mainly Israel must help Hamas’ enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative.”
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156 Comments
Yeah, because a political party installed by a nation that just bombed the crap out of a country is going to be well respected. Worked in Vichy France and Chile didn’t it?
You go Israel and bomb those terrorists. If we support Israel it keeps the USA safer from those Hamass terrorists. We must support Israel and give them bunker busting bombs and anything else they need to deal with these terrorists. If you don’t support Israel you are anti american as they are our only friend in the middle east.
Doing the same thing over and over with hopes of a different outcome is defined as insanity.
If Israel wants to co-exist with Palestine, they need to come up with new tactics to deal with them. The current plan of action only deepens the hatred.
Dropping phosphorus bombs on women and children isn’t going to sway Hammas into submission, it only increases their resolve to destroy Israel.
“If you don’t support Israel you are anti american as they are our only friend in the middle east.”
What BS.
Friends like Israel only generate us enemies. We owe them nothing and are obligated to them in no way .
Remember that old Warner Brothers cartoon with Spike the Bulldog and Chester the terrier?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov-1S8Xxd94
Israel is turning into that yipping tiny dog who picks fights for his big ol’ bully-dog who, instead of finding Sylvester the cat, encounters a panther that’s escaped from the zoo and gets pummeled.
Hard-liners in the Knesset do not represent all Israeli citizens. A patched-together coalition of far-right parties faces critical elections in February and (as we’ve seen with BushCo) fear is a good tool for winning right-wing voters.
CONs are chasing their tails — in the US and in Israel — as they proclaim the superiority of democracy while denying it to people who vote. Hamas won the “democratic” election last time and the Knesset arbitrarily voted to not seat them.
Israel has become Chester the terrier. We’re Spike and we’re getting ripped to shreds by going in and fighting proxy wars against Arabs in Iraq, Pashtuns in Afghanistan, Persians in Iran…
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I think perhaps the writer is seeing something that isn’t there. Israel isn’t doing anything to promote peace on the west bank. On the contrary, Israel is consistent with it’s policy toward palestine and treatment of the Palestinian people. Although not so much visibility in our one sided (Israeli supported) press:
Israeli Defense Minister has approved the new projects, Israeli H**** newspaper reported Friday.
“The Defense Secretaries decision effectively kills the peace process,” said a spokesman for the Palestinian President. “The Israeli Defense Minister and his government fully know that the peace process can not move on while our land is being looted.”
Israel has pledged to freeze settlement constructions in the occupied Palestinian territories which the Palestinians blamed for blocking the progress in U.S.-pushed peace talks.”
China Free Press
Hope springs eternal, but the author is only seeing what he wants to see. Newspapers ditto.
More on same:
SHVUT AMI OUTPOST, West Bank: For two months, Jewish youths have been renovating an old stone house on this muddy hilltop in the northern West Bank. The house is not theirs, however.
It belongs to a Palestinian family, and the seizure of it, along with the land around it, for a new settlement outpost is a violation of Israeli law. But although the police have evicted the group five times, they keep coming back.
Yedidya Slonim, 16, one of the renovators here, who grew up in another West Bank settlement, Tzofim, said of the police: “We come back straight away, as soon as they’ve gone. They come every week for half a day. It doesn’t bother us so much.”
The cat-and-mouse contest here lays bare a core dilemma of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute: Israel has pledged that it will permit no new settlements in the territory it has occupied since the 1967 war, allow no more expropriation of Palestinian land and dismantle unauthorized outposts – like this one – erected since March 2001, but it has never applied the muscle needed to do so.
“Shvut Ami is a chronicle of failure of law enforcement,” said Michael Sfard, an Israeli lawyer who represents the Palestinian owners of the house on behalf of Yesh Din, an Israeli volunteer organization that fights for Palestinian rights. In this respect, he said, the area is “a jungle.”
I could post more on the treatment of Palestinian’s by the Israeli government, but I think the above illustrates the point. How would you feel if someone came unto YOUR property and started bulldozing and construction?
And hey! I’m a Christian! I learned about Israel being God’s “Promised Land” for the jewish people. Let My People Go and all that jazz. Of course my pastor “scrolled over” the passages of the bible which document the slaughter of the inhabitants of the “Promised Land”. Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, and murdered every man, woman, and child so they couldn’t cross-pollinate with the pure jewish blood.
I’m not an Israel basher either. They have a right to defend themselves. You betcha.
I just don’t like paying my tax dollars and the billions of dollars we send to the “untouchable” “perfect” Holy Land Israel.
There is nothing holy about them. They are as screwed up as anyone else – and their politicians lead our politicians by the nose easily into the mess.
Not our problem IMHO.
Hamas are killers and them and other terrorists must be treated as such. There can be no appeasement among our enemies and must be dealth out of peace agreements, because I guarantee you they will come right back. They will be rearmed and stronger and you must hit them again. If the Muslims are crazy enough to kill their own, stand back and let them do it.
“There can be no appeasement among our enemies and must be dealth out of peace agreements”
Our enemies? Hamas bomb your house did they?
And where does your strategy lead? The only solution your position allows for is the complete annihilation of a race.
I don’t think that is going to work, do you?
bj, mary, maggot, rockets are on the way, oh my, what are you going to do?
The US and Israel created Hamas by undercutting Fatah. We claim that there have been ’succesful’ negotiations between Israel and Abbas but that is pure BULL. We claim that we and Israel recognize Abbas as a government – again BULL. If we truly recognized Palestine’s right to exist as a nation would we continue to support annexation of their land into Israel? Would we continue to support settlement expansion?
Until we get serious about allowing Palestine freedom – for the first time in over 40 years – the situation will fester. And as long as Abbas remains a willing puppet for Israel he will not be respected as any sort of Palestinian ‘government’
“I could post more on the treatment of Palestinian’s by the Israeli government, but I think the above illustrates the point. How would you feel if someone came unto YOUR property and started bulldozing and construction?”
American, first off the property IS Israel’s. Do some research and learn some history. The Palestinian’s have stolen this land from Israel. Thus you question should be aimed at Palenstinian’s.
You said, there is nothing Holy about Israel. That is a false statment. You may not agree with them, but they are still Holy, as are the Palestinian’s. You said Israel has done nothing to promote peace. Again, learn history. They KEPT the peace accord until they were attacked….again by Hamas. This is a vicious cycle.
Learn the facts
” the property IS Israel’s. Do some research and learn some history. The Palestinian’s have stolen this land from Israel.”
Outright LIE. Europeans fleeing persecution at the hands of Christians moved there and took the land from those who lived there.
Dropping phosphorus bombs on women and children isn’t going to sway Hammas into submission, it only increases their resolve to destroy Israel.—the gullible sap.
Israel isn’t dropping munitions on women and children, they are dropping them on Hamas terrorist fighters and they are running, hiding and fighting from among their own women and children. The cowards.
“And where does your strategy lead? The only solution your position allows for is the complete annihilation of a race.”—Am_Way
Am_Way if that’s what Hamas and the Palestinians want…it is their choice, and theirs alone. Israel can NOT be expected to tolerate being terrorized continually.
The Palestinians have brought this on themselves to a large degree by voting a terrorst organization, whose stated goal is the annialation of Israel, into office.
“Europeans fleeing persecution at the hands of Christians moved there and took the land from those who lived there.”
Those who lived there should have had a larger defense budget. That’s what happens.
bth, the land was given to them and at the “same time” the palistines were offered a country. they refused as long as there would be an israel “next door”, and a few years ago israel offered to the palistines almost everything they wanted, they refused again.
International relations on the farm
Sort of like bringing in ferrets to deal with a prairie dog problem that is making pasture land unusable. Then, when the prairie dogs are controlled by their natural enemy, the ferret, you end up with too many ferrets, who start to kill chickens etc…
“Outright LIE. Europeans fleeing persecution at the hands of Christians moved there and took the land from those who lived there.”
No, learn history. This land WAS, IS ISRAEL’s. Go futher back then the mid 1900’s buddy. Learn the facts. Go back thousands of years ago. The land is Israel’s = fact
“Learn the facts.”
Your “facts” are specious at the least and considerably dated.
“The land is Israel’s = fact”
God does not seem to have favored their holding on to the land then. Why are we to presume he has other feelings now?
Unless he like, you know, speaks up or something?
Poor BlueJay
In debating, if you are going to try and refute someone, you should try submitting evidence. Merely saying someone facts are false, is an extremely lazy and weak attempt. Next time, put a little thought into it. Further, facts are usually dated as they are part of history! Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
“God does not seem to have favored their holding on to the land then.” First off, who even mentioned God. Second, how do you gauge God is not favoring their holding? You dare speak for God? Wow!
BlueJay is fine.
Pity the poor Palestinian victims of your religious dogma and deep time grudges.
Oh and by the way?
If you say that your advocacy on behalf of Israel is not based in your faith? You are either singularly devoted to the selective modern time redress of history or simply a liar.
Where is your concern for the other dispossessed peoples of history?
kswolverine – in that case, unless you are Native American, GET OFF MY LAND!
ksw – I assume you are referring to Joshua which recounts how they stole the land by comitting genocide upon the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, etc? In that case it was not ‘given’ to them.
“Those who lived there should have had a larger defense budget. That’s what happens.”–fleettwood
fleettwood, you simply crack me up laughing. You are the ultimate pragmatist. No truer words were ever spoken.
The land has been occupied and claimed by both for thousands of years. Israel has is now, has for quite a while and is big enough to keep it, so that’s the way it is.
Here are some of the facts:
The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.
The term “Palestine” is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word “Filastin” is derived from this Latin name.
Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel’s capture of the West Bank.
Israel’s international “birth certificate” was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel’s admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel’s people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence. ”
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/The_Jewish_Claim_To_The_Land_Of_Israel.html
“the promise of the Bible;” Which THEY wrote. Do you have any sort of “birth certificate” signed by God?
“God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham”
Both Jews AND Muslims trace theor lineage back to Abraham.
“the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel’s admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states;”
INSIDE the pre-1967 borders. NOT in the West Bank. NOT controlling Gaza.
Notice how Phillip did not cite his source on the above quotes. Maybe the Editorial board is too short handed these days.
Ooops, missed it. Maybe I am a little short on the attention span today.
kswolverine is a good example of how Americans minds have been “poisoned” by continual exposure during bible class and incomplete teaching of the scriptures.
kswolverine is also an example of someone who listens only to what they want to hear in the media.
kswolverine is not someone who when they learn of a problem, takes the time to analyse the problem and ask, “Is there another side to this?”
If people like kswolverine did the research, maybe we wouldn’t blindly support Israel.
“Israel’s international “birth certificate” was validated by the promise of the Bible”
Then the LORD said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.
So Joshua and the whole army moved out to attack
Then Joshua sent them off, and they went to the place of ambush [terrorist tactic] and lay in wait between Bethel and Ai, to the west of Ai
So Joshua held out toward the city the javelin that was in his hand. 19 As soon as he did this, the men in the ambush rose quickly from their position and rushed forward. They entered the city and captured it and quickly set it on fire.
20 The men of Ai looked back and saw the smoke of the city rising against the sky, but they had no chance to escape in any direction; the Israelites who had been fleeing toward the wilderness had turned back against their pursuers. 21 For when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that smoke was going up from the city, they turned around and attacked the men of Ai. 22 Those in the ambush also came out of the city against them, so that they were caught in the middle, with Israelites on both sides. Israel cut them down, leaving them neither survivors nor fugitives [they slaughtered them all!].
When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai
Conclusion from the HOLY BOOK:
1. The land of milk and honey was OCCUPIED before the jews fleeing Eygpt arrived.
2. Israel FORCEFULLY occupied the land.
[no UN mandate]
3. Israel used terror tactics
4. Israel killed women and children
“Possession is nine-tenths of the law.”
Not to mention, Israel itself has over the years agreed to give up the West Bank. It has come in small bits and pieces – but what they HAVE agreed to give up, is no longer theirs. Their own leaders KNOW the solution:
Olmert says Israel must withdraw from West Bank for peace
Israel’s prime minister, who has a few weeks left in office, says that to achieve lasting peace, the nation has to cede most of the West Bank and half of Jerusalem to Palestinians.
By Ashraf Khalil
September 30, 2008
Israel will have to give up “almost all” of the West Bank areas it occupies and accept the division of Jerusalem in order to take advantage of a rapidly closing window of opportunity for peace with the Arabs, outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in an interview published Monday.
“The decision we are going to have to make is a decision we have been refusing for 40 years to look at open-eyed,” the Israeli leader told the Yediot Aharonot newspaper. “The time has come to say these things. The time has come to put them on the table.” LATIMES 30Sep08
A Muslim friend once told me that there could not be peace because all three religions claimed that God had given the land to them. The Jews and Christians via the Torah and the Muslims via the Quran. I told him he was wrong – in BOTH books God suppsoedly promises the land to “His followers” – followers of the God of Abraham (Ibrahim pbuh). ALL THREE of these religions are ‘Abrahaimic’ – followers of the God of Abraham.
A bumper sticker I have heard about:
“Isaac, Ishmaiel – quit fighting” – GOD
Today’s Israel does not want to give freedom to Palestine because Israelis COVET the land of the Palestinians. Isn’t there a prohibition on coveting among the ‘Big 10′?
Pork Chops for Peace!!!
I mean, who doesn’t like pork chops?
ANTI
Posted January 16, 2009 at 10:15 am | Permalink
Pork Chops for Peace!!!
I mean, who doesn’t like pork chops?
————————————————-
As the Rabbi said “Best steak I ever had!”
Actually, I think Muslims are closer to christianity than the Jewish religion. They hold Christ as one of the most important prophets. The Jews think Christ was just a man (and executed him for his claims).
So why do christians side with the Jews? Perplexing.
Am_Way,
I challenge you to view the video, who’s link I will provide below.
It is simply the best explanation about this conflict, with rich graphics, that I have seen. It is a little long but more than worth the short time it takes to view. It clears up a lot of conjecture.
The truth about Israel and Palestine
Think you or anyone reading can come up with a rebuttal that’s truthful??
Instead of calling for special sessions in Parliament, holding demonstrations, condemning without reason etc….lets be rational.
What is the real truth about the middle east conflict (Israel and Palestine)?
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
I’m deadly serious….view this, it’s informative!
Keep with me during this diatribe about blogging and debating. I will tie it in to the topic. American made some blanket statements that I challenged based on factual, historical and logical grounds. Instead of responding to these questions, instead of answering these challenges, this blogger made some generalizations about me and brought up religion vague other references. This is a very telling strategy: distract, deflect, and divert. Instead of answering questions challenging the accuracy of his statements he distracts people by bringing up vague generalizations. This blogger deflects attention away from their post and brings up instead new, seemingly irrelevant ideas. People utilizing this strategy no longer deal with facts, but rather emotion. No longer history, but myth. This is what Hamas has being doing. Make statements or attack, then when a response comes; divert attention by bringing in generalizations. Distract people by avoiding facts. Hamas attacks Israel then when they respond the dodge the questions. They dodge history. Just like American, they dodge the truth. Very telling indeed.
kswolverine,
That’s all you ever get out of BlowJ, he’s simply a jackal.
Actually Boxlock I think kswolverine
is complaining about me.
He went off the deep end. But I believe I have answered everything he asked me – or refuted with evidence.
I’ll let him go back and:
See what he asked me.
See what I responded to.
If he still doesn’t “get it”. I will cut and paste like a Dick and Jane book.
I’ll have to check your link later Boxlock.
ANTI
Posted January 16, 2009 at 10:15 am | Permalink
Pork Chops for Peace!!!
I mean, who doesn’t like pork chops?
………………..
Now that is truly funny! Good one, Anti.
“Think you or anyone reading can come up with a rebuttal that’s truthful??”
Boxlock, I cannot believe you of all people would fall for the propagranda in your link.
It is a very informative sales pitch for the State of Israel, but that’s about it.
Let me start at the beginning.
1. Jews lived here originally – not muslims until the 7th Century.
So what? Means nothing. Please note my biblical reference to where the jews stole it from all those people the “smote”.
2. 7 million jews died in the holocaust.
So what? What does that have to do with the price of beans in China? Nothing. And nothing to do with todays situation.
3. Turkey,England,UN gave the land to the jews.
So what/ They also provided land for the palestinians. Where’d it go?
4. Isreal has been fighting to protect their homeland since the 1948 UN.
So what? The Palestinains have been waging the war for the same time.
5. Muslims seek the destruction of Israel.
I won’t disagree with that point. But your alternative is what: exterminate the muslims living in Gaza and the West Bank? Ain’t happening.
I could go on. Your link is informative and provides ONE SIDE to the history. None of it justifies the United States siding with Israel or providing them 15 BILLION of our tax dollars.
Here is just a piece of what your one-sided history link leaves out (I’ve aleady posted others):
The jews were terrorists using murderous tactics in the middle east from 1945-1948. They FOUGHT and killed Brits in their “holy war for independence”.
Here’s an extract of their core beliefs when killing and murdering people opposed to a new Israel State – and the young UN:
Principles of Rebirth
Avraham Stern put forth the ideology of his organization in what was called the 18 Principles of Rebirth:[12]
1 – The nation: The Jewish people is a covenanted people, the originator of monotheism[13], formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony. The Jewish people is schooled in self-sacrifice and suffering; its vision, survivability and faith in redemption are indestructible.
2 – The homeland: The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible (”To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River.” Genesis 15:18) This is the land of the living, where the entire nation shall live in safety.
3 – The nation and its land: Israel conquered the land with the sword. There it became a great nation and only there it will be reborn. Hence Israel alone has a right to that land. This is an absolute right. It has never expired and never will.
4 – The Goals
1 – Redemption of the land.
2 – Establishment of sovereignty.
3 – Revival of the nation.
There is no sovereignty without the redemption of the land, and there is no national revival without sovereignty.
Does the above sound familiar?
The PLO, Hamas, and other palestinian groups are using the exact same tactics as the jews used to steal back the land.
And it was no more righteous then as it is now.
Early terrorism by the jews (why did they have to do this if it was THEIR land already?)
The group was initially unsuccessful. Early attempts to raise funds through criminal activities, including a bank robbery in Tel Aviv in 1940 and another robbery on 9 January 1942 in which Jewish passers-by were killed, brought about the temporary collapse of the group, and an attempt to assassinate the head of the British secret police in Lod in which three police personnel were killed, two Jewish and one British, elicited a severe response from the British and Jewish establishments who collaborated in an effort to eliminate the underground organisation.[14]
Stern’s group was seen as a terrorist organisation by the British authorities, who instructed the Defence Security Office (the colonial branch of MI5) to track down its leaders. In 1942, Stern, after he was arrested, was killed by Inspector Geoffrey Morton of the CID.[15] The arrest of several other members led momentarily to the group’s eclipse, until it was revived after the September 1942 escape of two of its leaders Yitzhak Shamir and Eliyahu Giladi (later killed by the group under circumstances that remain mysterious) aided by two other escapees Natan Yellin-Mor (Friedman) and Israel Eldad (Sheib).[16] Shamir (who would later become Prime Minister of Israel), was known by the codename “Michael” which was a reference to one of Shamir’s heroes, Michael Collins. Lehi was guided by spiritual and philosophical leaders such as Uri Zvi Greenberg and Israel Eldad. The smallest by far of any of the Jewish armed groups during the Mandatory era, it never attracted more than a few hundred followers, and was reviled by most other Jews. After the killing of Giladi, the organization was led by a triumvirate of Eldad, Shamir, and Yellin-Mor.
Lehi adopted a non-socialist platform of Anti-Imperialist ideology. It viewed the continued British rule of Palestine as a violation of the Mandate’s provision generally, and its restrictions on Jewish immigration to be an intolerable breach of international law. However they also targeted Jews whom they regarded as traitors, and towards the end of the British Mandate they joined in operations with the Haganah and Irgun against Arab targets, for example Deir Yassin.
According to a compilation by Nachman Ben-Yehuda, Lehi was responsible for 42 assassinations altogether, more than twice as many as those of the Irgun and Haganah combined during the same period. Of those Lehi assassinations that Ben-Yehuda classified as political, more than half the victims were Jews.[17]
Lehi also rejected the authority of the Jewish Agency and related organizations, operating entirely on its own throughout nearly all of its existence.
Lehi prisoners captured by the British generally refused to present a defence when brought to trial. They would only read out statements in which they declared that the court, representing an occupying force, had no jurisdiction over them and therefore was illegal. For the same reason, Lehi prisoners refused to plea for amnesty, even when it was clear that this would have spared them the death penalty. In one case Moshe Barazani, a Lehi man, and Meir Feinstein, an Irgun member, committed suicide in prison in order to deprive the British of the ability to hang them.
americanway……the palistines refused the land as long as there would be an israel next to it
Before anyone think I am taking sides with the muslims – I am not.
I am just stating there really is truth to more than one side. To blindly side with Israel has never worked since 1948 (our president recognized Israel 11 minutes after the 1948 declaration – amazing for those days). It’s never worked.
What MIGHT work, is recognition that there are problems on both sides. A little good will toward recognizing the palestinians would go A LONG WAY IN THE WAR ON TERROR. Not shooting them.
But no president has or will ever DARE to side with anyone but Israel. Israel MUST come first.
And that puts us centered between the rear post sight and front sight apperture as the Muslims look at us through their guns.
I object to blindly following anyone or any one policy that does NOT work!
“wichhick
Posted January 16, 2009 at 11:29 am | Permalink
americanway……the palistines refused the land as long as there would be an israel next to it”
And why not? That’s exactly what the jewish terrorist did in the 1940’s:
Lehi had three main goals:
to bring together all those interested in liberation (that is, those willing to join in active fighting against the British)
to appear before the world as the only active Jewish military organization
to take over the Land of Israel by armed force[8]
The group believed in its early years that its goals would be achieved by finding a strong international ally that would expel the British from Palestine in return for help from the Jewish military; this would in turn require the creation of a broad and organised military force “demonstrating its desire for freedom through military operations.”[9]
An article titled “Terror” in He Khazit (The Front, a Lehi underground newspaper) argued as follows:
Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.” But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all. [10]
The article described the goals of terror:
It demonstrates … against the true terrorist who hides behind his piles of papers and the laws he has legislated.
It is not directed against people, it is directed against representatives. Therefore it is effective.
If it also shakes the Yishuv from their complacency, good and well.[10]
Heck, I even believe Israel had every right to defend itself!
“We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.”
sounds an awful lot like:
“With Allah’s help we will destroy Israel and wipe them off the face of the earth!”
“Actually Boxlock I think kswolverine
is complaining about me.”–Am-Way
Am_Way….ha, you are NOT a jackal.
Please do check the video link out, I would appreciate your input on it. It’s biased, of course, as is anything showing one perspective or the other, but at least there are dates and explanations and a good history lesson.
Take care,
Mary_Caruso
Posted January 16, 2009 at 6:40 am | Permalink
Doing the same thing over and over with hopes of a different outcome is defined as insanity.
——————————
Unless your practicing free throws.
Or ‘trying’ for that little ‘girl.’
But you are right in the case of cosmos. Writing the same thing over and over again expecting the climate to get warmer when it’s not is insanity. :D
Oh, and Am-Way,
Israel is waging a war against the terrorist Hamas, and civilians are getting caught in the cross fire as always happens in war anytime one side hides and fights from behind and within their own civilian population. Theirs is a calculated strategy to inflame world wide, and especially Arab, condemnation.
Hamas on the other had fights as terrorists, targeting civilian populations intentionally.
And therein lies a big difference.
The only thing supporting Fatah will do while Hamas is still present will end up with results just like Lebanon. That is, Hamas will assassinate leaders and generally harass them until they leave or just disappear.
The Hamas party are thugs and must be exterminated.
“Theirs is a calculated strategy to inflame world wide, and especially Arab, condemnation.”
Hamas, that is, is doing that, not Israel.
I don’t disagree with you Boxlock. But I’m betting, there were “calculated” civilian targets in 1945 by the Jewish settlers too. We just didn’t have the mass media exposing it before technology. And the jews DID kill civilians intentionally or not.
“Theirs is a calculated strategy to inflame world wide, and especially Arab, condemnation.”
as the jewish uprisers did in 1945 using the holocaust to garner sympathy
The mess in the middleeast is all the creation of “noble” causes by western nations.
Israel is an artifical creation of the United Nations which in the post WWII period was largely influenced by the worlds only superpower: USA.
Everytime we try to be “righteous” and to administer “justice” in other corners of the globe we put ourselves in the middle of the battles which inevitably follow.
Our a$$ helped cause the problem to begin with. We now need to keep our broke a$$ out. We set ourselves up for failure and the wrath of whichever side we fail to appease.
“Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat.” Lehi*
Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949 and in 1980 the group was honored by the institution of the Lehi ribbon, a military decoration the organization’s former members are entitled to wear.
*Lehi:Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, “Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”, also known as the Stern Gang
“as the jewish uprisers did in 1945 using the holocaust to garner sympathy”—Am_Way
Did you look at the video and the pictures Am_Way?
The holocaust is well documented. Exact numbers can only be given a calculated guess, but that large numbers of Jews were murdered is unequivocal.
There goes Brownlee again, dreaming up NATION BUILDING schemes.
Remember when the Libs accused Bush of NATION BUILDING?
“The Hamas party are thugs and must be exterminated.”
And how do you do that? The party is composed of people. Humans who have been brought up to hate Israel and jews for generations. You cut off it’s head and two more grow back.
We know you can’t kill every man, woman, and child. We also know the next generation will issue forth new party leaders.
I’m suggesting we need a fresh approach.
Why shouldn’t the People who live in that area decide how they want to be goverened?
And if two neighboring Nations have a conflict, let them duke it out on their own.
BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
The Liberals KNOW better then the People. The ELITIST LIBERALS would design the whole World if we let them.
Don’t you see how effective the UN Designers have been so far? The Libs would dictate to the World, if they were allowed to.
Boxlock, please. I am not denying the holocaust in Germany which ended in 1945 and resulted in 7 million dead jewish people.
I just don’t for the life of me see how that has anything to do with the State of Israel and the situation today.
I can have sympathy and compassion and a sense of respect for them.
But that doesn’t justify anything today.
American_Way
Posted January 16, 2009 at 11:59 am | Permalink
The mess in the middleeast is all the creation of “noble” causes by western nations.
————————————————
Which is proof that Big Government f ucks things up every time they get too much power.
It’s a tough situation Am_Way, I don’t know that with the hate and history involved there is a way out other than one side simply defeating the other. And Israel has the higher claim both now and in the past. Why are the other regional Arab countries NOT accepting and absorbing the Palestinians. Nobody seems to what them…why, because things get blow up when they are about.
What if the UN decided the Democrats should no longer control America?
(I know, that’s a BIG “What If”)
What if the UN decided that the Native American Indians should control the USA?
That would be ok, wouldn’t it? Afterall, they were here first.
#
American_Way
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
“The Hamas party are thugs and must be exterminated.”
And how do you do that? The party is composed of people. Humans who have been brought up to hate Israel and jews for generations. You cut off it’s head and two more grow back.
We know you can’t kill every man, woman, and child. We also know the next generation will issue forth new party leaders.
I’m suggesting we need a fresh approach.
———————-
I said the party not the people. The Hamas party should be declared illegal in the state of Palestine as they practice terrorism, do assassination and terrorize their own citizens.
“And Israel has the higher claim both now and in the past.”
Now that is quite clearly an opinion.
“I said the party not the people”
And unusually for you Regular, did not read anything I wrote – and even cut and pasted it again!
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:26 pm | Permalink
“I said the party not the people”
And unusually for you Regular, did not read anything I wrote – and even cut and pasted it again!
=====================================
Then interpret what you wrote differently.
.
.
.
We know you can’t kill every man, woman, and child.
.
.
.
I clearly meant party not people, you’re the one that put ‘kill every man, woman and child’ in what I posted.
Just admit your wrong. :)
Please look at what I posted early on this thread.
Israel has documented cases of not following it’s own policy (no new settlements).
Israel’s own outgoing prime minister admits they must give up the west bank to have lasting peace.
He had nothing to loose politically so more sincere?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/01/is-fatah-the-only-hope-for-peace/#comment-504566
O.K. Regular no battles today. I’m wrong.
Who is “the party”?
If you kill todays leaders – they will be replaced faster than you can switch nics! :-)
American_Way
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:31 pm | Permalink
Please look at what I posted early on this thread
======================
I wasn’t addressing other posts, I was making one of my own.
Please re-read what I posted that clearly stated the Hamas party should be banned (killed) not people.
The world doesn’t revolve around your posts.
So the final solution to your proposal can only lead to killing those standing in the wings, waiting to be “the party”….
And then killing the next batch.
and the next…
American_Way
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:33 pm | Permalink
O.K. Regular no battles today. I’m wrong.
Who is “the party”?
If you kill todays leaders
================================
Yo!
Read my lips.
Make the Hamas party illegal in the state of Palestine.
What is this thing you have about killing people?
The Hamas party are thugs and must be exterminated.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/01/is-fatah-the-only-hope-for-peace/#comment-504635
the Hamas party should be banned (killed)
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2009/01/is-fatah-the-only-hope-for-peace/#comment-504668
Sorry I used the wrong word. I changed your exterminated to “killed”.
Somehow you changed it to “banned”?
Terrorist groups:
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm
http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/jay/jew/firgun1931.htm
Manachem Begin in that one.
http://www.rense.com/general18/fromtheIrvRubin.htm
http://www.spectacle.org/495/deir.html
Terrorist bombing in Jeruselum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
“The King David Hotel bombing was a deadly bomb attack by the Irgun, a militant Zionist group, on the headquarters of the British Mandatory authorities of Palestine, located at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The offensive was carried out on 22 July 1946 and was the deadliest attack against the British during the Mandate era (1920-1948).”
The world doesn’t revolve around your posts.
What you say? It doesn’t?
Say it ain’t so!?!
I’m sorry, I’m beginning to post like Cosmos….
American_Way
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Somehow you changed it to “banned”?
After it was clear you were indicting me for murder and understanding that making a party illegal in Palestine is not the same as murder.
Regular’s right. I’m on a roll. Subject just gets to me when people blindly align themselves with Israel which won’t solve anything. Like I’m the only one with an opinion and mine doesn’t stink.
Later! American_Way out!
Yeah Ben, the Nazis use the same propaganda against Jews, stating Jews were evil and terrorists.
Is it comforting to be in the same mindset as Nazis? :)
The Hamas killers had support from Iran, now who would have ever thought that. Read this report 100 of the terrorists got terminated. Israel should not back off or stop until Hamas is totally destroyed, otherwise they will keep coming. Anybody want to think otherwise has it all wrong. No appeasement with killers and terrorists.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056131.html
American_Way
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:44 pm | Permalink
Regular’s right. I’m on a roll. Subject just gets to me when people blindly align themselves with Israel which won’t solve anything.
========================
How is declaring a terrorist group disguised as a political party (Hamas) illegal, the same as siding with Israel.
Are you smarter than all the leaders of Europe, Canada, Australia and the U.S. etc.; that declares Hamas as a terrorist organization?
I would love to see Hamas banned … but what would be the alternative for Palestinians to vote for if they have another election?
I’d like to see Kadima and Likud banned too – they are the inheritors of the terrorist organizations listed above.
No regular, it is not. I support Israel’s right to exist – inside its recognized borders.
John McCain’s preacher Hagee cheered Nazis for forcing the Jews out of Europe – I condemn them for that.
bth
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:48 pm | Permalink
I would love to see Hamas banned … but what would be the alternative for Palestinians to vote for if they have another election?
======================
Oh, I don’t know.
Perhaps they could write the Democratic National Party and get their platform for government and then implement same in Palestine -
.
.
.
and call themselves the Democratic Party of Palestine.
#
bth
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:50 pm | Permalink
No regular, it is not. I support Israel’s right to exist – inside its recognized borders.
John McCain’s preacher Hagee cheered Nazis for forcing the Jews out of Europe – I condemn them for that.
========================
I could care less what Hagee, who btw is still just one man, has to say on the issue. I think he’s a money grubbing, selfish evangelist with a greed for fame, power and money.
george – I’m glad they got that Iran unit – if they did. Unfortunately I fear that we have created many more fighters among the survivors whose babies have had their heads blown off in their mothers’ arms. Or those who survived the hospital bombing today.
The real problem in any revolution is that once the final battle is won, how to simultaneously honor the freedom fighters and get rid of them. Once you’ve made your revolution, it’s time for the diplomats to take over, and the last thing you need is more revolutionaries!
Fatah has outlived it’s usefulness. It’s long past time to quit fighting and start negotiating.
Israel has tried to coexist with Hamas. They give up land. What do they get? People who can’t buy food but seem to have unlimited bullets and rockets. Nuke Hamas and we will reduce the potential for another World Trade Center disaster. Hamas is a bunch of terrorists and must be eliminated. I worry about money the arabs in the USA are sending to Hamas to buy the weapons.
It i too bad that we deliberately undermined Abbas and his Fatah movement. That is why Hamas won the elections.
Donkeys love death
Egyptian Clerics Encourage Martyrdom in Gaza:
We Must Love Death
[ http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1984.htm?auth=36cb0c0f21562acefa0b7b8a6545d2e5 ]
The angel of the LORD also said to her [ Hagar ] “You are now with child and you will have a son .. You shall name him Ishmael [ father of the Arabs ] for the LORD has heard of your misery . . . He will be a wild donkey of a man .. his hand will be against everyone .. and everyone’s hand against him .. and he will live in hostility .. toward all his brothers” . . . . Genesis 16
#
bth
Posted January 16, 2009 at 1:00 pm | Permalink
It i too bad that we deliberately undermined Abbas and his Fatah movement. That is why Hamas won the elections.
=========================
Or, Hamas used intimidation tactics on other parties in Palestine.
Which, in fact, they did.
Hamas terrorist believe if you die for a ’cause’ you will go to heaven. Let Israel kill em and see if they are right.
Yeah Ben,
But what about when that mother sits there and watches Hamas storing rockets and firing rockets and does and says nothing?
One would think that if you had terrorists in your backyard that you might say or do something to stop them.
Rather than complain when you get hurt while someone else does.
Regular – we undermined Abbas by refusing to negotiate with him when he had power. Now that he is out of power we say he would be the only option to negotiate with. It is unfortunate that Abbas and fatah have been marginalized but the roots of that marginalization lies in our refusal to recognize Palestine’s right to exist.
Nathan – inside the prison camp that was blockaded Gaza there was nothing anyone could do. That is why peace-keepers and nation-building are needed – things that we have repeatedly vetoed because Israel considers Palestine to be its “internal affair”
Ben,
Peace keepers?
Last time we were talking about “peace keepers” you were saying any action takin against them by terrorists was a legtimiate military action.
And you complained about there being there.
Now you want them back?
My goodness you are a confusing man.
#
bth
Posted January 16, 2009 at 1:22 pm | Permalink
Regular – we undermined Abbas by refusing to negotiate with him when he had power. Now that he is out of power we say he would be the only option to negotiate with. It is unfortunate that Abbas and fatah have been marginalized but the roots of that marginalization lies in our refusal to recognize Palestine’s right to exist.
======================
Too simplistic to point a finger at one source Ben.
The military arm of Fatah was yanked from Abbas by Yassir Arafat, so Abbas was powerless to bring the militant groups of Islamic Jihad and Hamas under control.
According to Wiki, Abbas cut his own throat, that right after the U.S. lifted the embargo on Palestine and the European Union increased their aid, Abbas declared the peace talks with Israel over.
That’s no way to settle anything, especially after getting in good graces with the rest of the world, then stab them in the back for their good deeds.
Not true Nathan. 100% false.
There is a difference (although it is a fine line) between peacekeepers and occupiers. France, for example, now has peacekeepers in Lebanon. Israel, on the other hand, has OCCUPIERS in the West bank and has for 41 years.
I am sorry if the distinction between peacekeepers and occupiers is so confusing to you.
And when those “peace keepers” are attacked by terrorists?
Ben will be here cheering them on and justifying the actions of those terrorists…er freedom fighters.
“The military arm of Fatah was yanked from Abbas by Yassir Arafat”
NOPE. Abbas rose to power after Arafat (finally) died.
So, the French/Italian/Marines forces were occupiers in lebanon then?
That is your claim, that the multi-national peace keepers sent by those three countries were actually trying to occupy lebanon?
My what exciting times today’s fundamentalist live in, being witnesses to SMOTE 2, God’s Will Gettin’ Done!
The problem than Nathan was that we were working too much in concert with Israel. US forces simply cannot be peace-keepers in the Middle East because we are too closely tied with one of the parties. We might be able to provide ‘distant’ logistical help to forces on the ground (e.g. satellite surveillance) but definitely not boots on the ground.
This is the opposite of the situation (for example) in the Balkans where we managed to not be tied to one side or the other. There it would have been difficult for Russia (tied to Serbia) or Germany (tied to Croatia) to be neutrals.
There is a sort of exception to this ‘rule’ – a country might provide support on a friend’s ’side’ of a border. For example – we could help Israel patrol their borders from locations inside Israel. Unfortunately, we would be viewed as occupiers by Israel’s neighbors due to our identity with Israel. Similarly, I doubt that Israel would be comfortable with Jordanian troops inside Israel – and for good reasons.
#
bth
Posted January 16, 2009 at 1:42 pm | Permalink
“The military arm of Fatah was yanked from Abbas by Yassir Arafat”
NOPE. Abbas rose to power after Arafat (finally) died.
———————–
Then Wiki is wrong and you are right.
Which is it?
“Arafat was pronounced dead at 3:30 am UTC on November 11 at the age of 75.” That was 2004. A bit over 4 years ago. (from Wiki)
2005 presidential election
After Yasser Arafat’s death Mahmoud Abbas was seen, at least by Fatah, as his natural successor.
On November 25, Abbas was endorsed by Fatah’s Revolutionary Council as its preferred candidate for the Palestinian presidential election, scheduled for January 9, 2005.
On December 14, Abbas called for an end to violence in the Al-Aqsa Intifada and a return to peaceful resistance. Abbas told the Asharq al-Awsat newspaper that “the use of arms has been damaging and should end”. However, he refused to disarm Palestinian militants and use force to act against groups that Israel, the United States, and the European Union designated as “terrorist organizations”.
With Israeli forces arresting and restricting the movement of other candidates, Hamas’s boycott of the election, and his campaign being given 94% of Palestine TV electoral campaign coverage, Abbas’ election was virtually ensured,[19] and on January 9 Abbas was elected with 62% of the vote as the new president of the Palestinian Authority. (See Palestinian presidential election, 2005 for election statistics.)
from Wiki:
Initially he pledged not to use force against the militants, in the interest of avoiding a civil war, and instead attempted negotiation. This was partially successful, resulting in a pledge from the two groups to honor a unilateral Palestinian cease-fire. However, continuing violence and Israeli “target killings” of known leaders forced Abbas to pledge a crackdown in order to uphold the Palestinian Authority’s side of the Road Map for Peace. This led to a power struggle with Arafat over control of the Palestinian security services; Arafat refused to release control to Abbas, thus preventing him from using them in a crackdown on militants.
======================================
Yes, Arafat died in 2005 or whatever, but it was Arafat who hamstrung Abbas by refusing to release control of the Palestinian security service.
Arafat was a roadnlock before 2004. Since then he has been cold and in the ground.
#
bth
Posted January 16, 2009 at 2:22 pm | Permalink
Arafat was a roadnlock before 2004. Since then he has been cold and in the ground.
————————-
Yes, but his interference led to the situation as it is today.
That is, the militant groups hold the power in Palestine.
Israel got 17 votes FOR and 16 AGAINST, with 23 abstainers,wrought by Tumans’ twisting arms,for PARTITION only, but Israel unilaterally declared independence. So the fact is that a bare majority of a minority of the UN at the time caved to Zionist/American pressure, really not not a strong or legitimate mandate for taking lands away from the peoples in place. There have been so many declarations and resolutions in the UN that anybody can pick what they want to justify their actions. Israel is an illegal State, but then so are most of the modern states of to-day. Gaining ones own polictal destiny involves angst and usually the people to whom the angst is directed are stunned and amazed there was a probem in the first place. Realpolitik will set in one day and folks will figure nice or not, wether you think they can be next to you or not, it hurts to get into a fight with bigger guys who got bigger sticks. Many Arab govenments have come to accept this, but local media/speakers can still bring the faithfull out onto the streets. Have you ever wondered why banners of protesters all over the world carry ENGLISH messages when the local language is anything but? PS :Balfour’s slogan of ” A land without people, for a people without a land” was Uganda, but Zionism wanted nothing to do with that!
Hamass is a a bunch of terrorist. Terrorist should be hunted down, put in jail or killed.
“Terrorist” is such a subjective term.
I don’t know if the word itself existed at the time. Certainly the British Army would have found the tactics of the Colonial Americans terroristic. But they probably had other words like “barbaric” or “ungentlemanly” or “uncivilized”.
By what Right does ANY Country occupy its territory?
““And Israel has the higher claim both now and in the past.”
Now that is quite clearly an opinion.”
Not really, at least not just a personal one. Israel has claim on at least four factual points, as listed above. The clearest of which is they are in present possession and have been for over 60 years. They are putting the land to high use, being very productive, with a progressive modern society, contributing to the world community. Not so the Palestinians who seem much more interested in attacking Israel than progressing within their society or caring for their own citizens. If fact they use their citizens as expendables of war. Israel has it, Israel is going to keep it and if attacked they will defend themselves….very reasonable response. When Hamas strikes them, they have no obligation to respond in measured manner, they have a responsibility to stop the attacks on their citizens.
Regular
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:29 pm | Permalink
Posted January 16, 2009 at 12:26 pm | Permalink
“I said the party not the people”
And unusually for you Regular, did not read anything I wrote – and even cut and pasted it again!
=====================================
Then interpret what you wrote differently.
.
.
.
We know you can’t kill every man, woman, and child.
.
.
.
I clearly meant party not people, you’re the one that put ‘kill every man, woman and child’ in what I posted.
Just admit your wrong. :)
—————————————–
Ok, rare event, I disagree with you too Regular.
Any Party, is composed of People. If you want to destroy Hamas, you must destroy the MEMBERS of the Party. The MEMBERS of the Party, are the People of the Party.
And you of all people Regular, should know that by simply passing a law banning Hamas, the party does not somehow magically disappear.
“Terrorist”
S: (n) terrorist (a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities)
“Terrorism”
S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)
“Certainly the British Army would have found the tactics of the Colonial Americans terroristic”
You, sir, are an idiot.
The Brits found the tactics of the Zionist to be terroristic, so I don’t think that’s much of a stretch.
“Terrorism”
S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)
Or by a body count that’s 50% civilian.
Boxlock lies:
“Israel isn’t dropping munitions on women and children, they are dropping them on Hamas terrorist fighters and they are running, hiding and fighting from among their own women and children. The cowards.”
Naturally I debunked this on the second post in this thread. The UN HQ for food distribution was not occupied by Hamas fighters. The only Palestinians inside were refugees, primarily women and children. The UN provided Israel with GPS locations of all their facilities in order to prevent being bombed. As the video presented, clearly showed, there was smoke arising from only one building and the Israeli PM spokesman admitted the UN HQ was bombed and the evidence shows that this civilian target was hit with a phosphorous bomb. The UN reported that there were no Hamas fighters in or around the building.
When faced with the facts Boxlock lies. But isn’t that typical. The truth just gets in the way of his bloody crusade to slaughter in the name of Jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c
When faced with the facts Boxlock lies. But isn’t that typical. The truth just gets in the way of his bloody crusade to slaughter in the name of Jesus.
———-
Whew, that Boxlock is a bad dude.
Someone takes themselves way too seriously Maggie.
The only Right any Country has to its territory is POSSESSION.
You holier than thou types, sitting fat, dumb, and happy in your warm American homes are sitting on stolen land. Oh, the LA purchase you say, was legally acquired! Yeah, but France stole the land from the Indians. Alaska, purchased from Russia! Yeah, but the Russians stole it from the Eskimos.
Face it folks, we’re all savages. You might Pretend that you are civilized, while sitting by your warm fire places sipping on a nice hot cup of tea, with your cute little dainty silk napkins, but you (we) are all land theives!
We weren’t entitled to anything when we were born, we’re not entitled to anything during our lives, or after our deaths. The land is here, and we took it. We occupied it. You can’t say we own it. You might say that you rent it.
And when we die, we shall all return to it, and somebody else will move into our place and pretend that THEY are the civilized ones too. That is, until someone who is less prissy comes in to take it away from them.
“the Palestinians who seem much more interested in attacking Israel than progressing within their society or caring for their own citizens.”
They have never been given that opportunity. The West bank is ruled by Israel. Gaza was under a blockade which prevented trade with other countries. That tiny strip does not have sufficient arable land or water to support a totally isolated agrarian system.
Perhaps we should consider supporting a ONE-STATE solution; requiring that Eretz Israel become a real democracy. Allow ALL of those subject to Israeli rule to vote. That would sure lead to some changes there!
JiMJohnson: Possession is one thing, holding it another. At the end of the war of 1812, Canada had repulsed our forces and held 40,000 acres in Maine and Michigan, giving it back with the Treaty of Ghent. In that we invaded them seeking annexaton, you’d wonder why. Well, to hold it was an impedement to lasting peace with a country 10 times her population. Realpolitik at work. The Zionists, Kurds and the Armenians were all promised homelands by the Brits in exchange for fighting the Ottoman Empire during WW1, but the Kurds and the Armenians would never be able to hold such lands, whereas Zionism with American Jewry monies could. Another case of realpolitik at work. Getting it is one thing, keeping it makes you think long range, leading me to wonder if maybe Israel should consider Gaza in that light.
#
bth
Posted January 16, 2009 at 5:29 pm | Permalink
Perhaps we should consider supporting a ONE-STATE solution; requiring that Eretz Israel become a real democracy. Allow ALL of those subject to Israeli rule to vote. That would sure lead to some changes there!
===============================
Well, that would work if the extremists would allow it – both sides. It would never happen.
The Israeli “High Secular groups” and Orthodox won’t allow it.
And, the Hamas/other groups doesn’t recognize Israel as a nation to exist.
Why doesn’t Egypt give up some land for the Palestinians? I mean there is a prime bit a real estate just to the south.
“When faced with the facts Boxlock lies. But isn’t that typical. The truth just gets in the way of his bloody crusade to slaughter in the name of Jesus.—the Antipathtic Maggot
Yeah, I am one bad dude! On my own personal crusade to “slaughter in the name Jesus”, as I sit peering into this computer screen, in my house slippers and sweats, thinking what in the world does that guy have for brains. Maybe he get his nic from the fact his brain has been eaten by maggots or something.
Hamas are terrorist cowards, hiding behind their own children and women, and they the instigators of most of the problems that are going on in that part of the world just as other Muslim terrorists are responsible for most of the terror in the rest of the world.
Good fortune to Israel in this conflict.
Yup, as expected you can’t deal with the fact Boxlicker. Just admit it, you don’t care what’s going on, you just wanted to see more Muslims die. In fact, you are more than happy that civilians are dying because it just ups the body count.
Here’s the scoop….the party to celebrate Obama’s historic election to the presidency will be held next Friday at The Anchor in downtown Wichita (just East of Washington on Douglas). The party should start around 6:30 in the back room
To celebrate Obama’s agenda of inclusiveness and reaching across the aisle, ALL are welcome :)
Mary you old sl*t. Why are you wasting this thread to post something that obviously belongs on another thread?
So go to your backroom party. But don’t waste space assuming the world cares. It does not.
Particularly a backroom party.
Inclusiveness my butt: You all already stated Obama cannot have the priest he wants do the invocation.
Further, the controlling party in congress has already passed new regulations EXCLUDING republicans from law formulation/writing meetings.
You are fool if you believe your party is one of inclusiveness. It is not. Say hi to your Christian anti-abortion inclusive members.
LOL!!…Does that mean you’re not coming, Roach?
You think and dream whatever makes you go Maggot, whatever you need to get that shallow character of yours through the day.
You are one sick dude pointing fingers and making up your own ‘reality’.
Get some help before it’s too late, ops never mind, I think it’s plain to see it already is.
Here Maggot, chew on this awhile and enjoy complements of Boxlock….it’s fact.
“Although respected in the Islamic world, Hamas wages Jihad by firing rockets at Israeli women while hiding behind Palestinian women (and
then fleeing). Such… manliness… might explain why rules and antics are necessary to keep Muslim girls from marrying outside the religion.”
Islam, the religion of Peace, (and a big stack of dead bodies.)
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Thanks Mary, there’s going to be one at Rendezous as well, starting around 6pm.
I see Boxy has nothing intelligent to add. Guess he is still speechless after being proven to be so utterly wrong.
Like I said maggot…you obviously need your false self-building imagination just to get by.
I think it’s quite telling.
Boxic,
As you said, the Israelis had the military power to take the land from the Brits and drive out the local residents.
Assuming that’s the way land is supposed to be acquired and held, why object to Hamas use of the same tactics used on them to try and win it back?
Jed,
Hamas is trying to do just that, and Israel is kicking their butts. That’s what I’m saying. If Hamas does not like their getting their butts kick in then they should stop doing those things that bring it on.
PS: I am not agreeing that I said what you said I did about Israel taking the land militarily, I am simply agreeing with your premise about what Hamas is doing.
“Boxlock20″ declares –
” If Hamas does not like their getting their butts kick in then they should stop doing those things that bring it on.”
Like getting elected in democratic elections?
The Continental Army lost just about every battle it entered with the most powerful empire in history until Cornwallis lost the last one.
The Viet Cong got their butts handed to them for twenty years until they finally wore out the invaders.
During the election the CONs trotted out vague references to the presence of US troops in and around Bosnia as justification for McCain’s proposed 100-year war effort and military occupation in Iraq.
Funny thing, though. Bosnia Herzegovina Serbia Moldavia et al are getting along fairly okay these days due to a foreign policy that resulted in absolutely no American combat deaths, a few war crimes trials, and natives finding more productive things to do than kill each other.
The George WMD Bush Administration has just completed eight years of a “kill each other” approach to achieving world peace.
How’s that worked out?
“Why doesn’t Egypt give up some land for the Palestinians? I mean there is a prime bit a real estate just to the south.”
Why doesn’t the USA give up some land for the Israelis? Perhaps some prime real estate in the Great Plains?
“bth” asks –
“Why doesn’t the USA give up some land for the Israelis? “
I wondered about that, too.
Give ‘em a fair-to-middlin’ sized cattle ranch in eastern Wyoming or Western Nebraska and ship in the Wailing Wall a la the London Bridge in Arizona.
Cede Tijuana to the Palestinians and let them lob missiles at will; it’ll still lower the death rate.
Turn a segment of Walt Disney World into “al Qaeda Land” and charge people $120 a day for virtual suicide bombing rides.” The thrill will fade, just like that lame spinning teacup ride.
HamASS = Terrorists. The sooner we deal with terrorists, the safer the world will be.
Then, as noted by the former Israeli prison guard above, we need to be dealing with fatah: “Israel must help Hamas’ enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative.”
It is too bad that we have refused to do so.
Israel bombs a school where 1,600 civilians were seeking refuge. Upon hearing the news Boxlock smiled with glee at the deaths of more women and children.
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Israel_strikes_Gaza_ahead_of_unilateral_0117.html