All Wichitans should be shocked and angered by the recent cross burning in a southwest Wichita front yard, where the perpetrators also burned a path to the front porch. Few crimes are as clear in their intent to intimidate, turning the symbol of Christianity into a blazing threat. Each cross burning harks back to the practice’s history as a cowardly weapon of the Ku Klux Klan during the nation’s civil rights struggle. In this case, the skin color of the targeted couple is white. But the message was clear, underscored by an anonymous phone call the victim said he received demanding that he stop using his house as a haven for young adults in need of second chances. “I didn’t think that still happened,” the targeted man said of cross burnings. They shouldn’t still happen – not in Wichita, not anywhere.
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302 Comments
What’s the deal with Christians and burning crosses?
Okay, we know this history of the Ku Klux Klan.
But have you driven by a United Methodist or Presbyterian church lately? BOTH those decidedly main-stream old line protestant denominations use a burning cross as their trademark.
What the hail is wrong with people.
I hope they get who did it, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if its someone who posts on this board.
“What’s the deal with Christians and burning crosses?
Okay, we know this history of the Ku Klux Klan.”
And just how do you know Christians burned the cross there Sherlock? Pretty presumptuous asinine assumption. But what else can we expect from a Monkey. Or, we can conclude you intentionally attempt to lie to confuse the issue.
United Methodist Church logo:
“The flame in the church logo represents the work of the Holy Spirit.
It relates The United Methodist church to God through Christ (cross) and the Holy Spirit (flame). The flame is a reminder of Pentecost when witnesses were unified by the power of the Holy Spirit and saw “tongues, as of fire” (Acts 2:3).The two tongues of a single flame may also be understood to represent the union of two denominations.”
I hope work is under way to trace the call.
Bigotry is alive and well these days. It just hides a little better or chooses easier targets.
And yes, I am sad to say that more often then not, such bigotry resides in people who CLAIM to be of the Christian faith.
My prayers goes out to the family who had a cross burned on their front yard what is wrong with the people in Wichita,Kansas?? I get a sick feeling just expressing my own personal opinion about this incident. This family does not deserve this act of hatred they did nothing wrong, but offer shelter and food and and safe haven for young adults. Only in Wichita does things like this happen this is why people move away and never return. There is too much jealously and hatred in ths city and I hope the WPD find the persons responsible and lock them in the dirtiest coldest jail cell.
I think both of you are projecting too much, MH sometimes a cigar is nothing more then a cigar.
It is not a Christian thing and burning crosses, you sight two but in and of itself a burning cross does not always mean hatred. there is as much chance that those who did burn the cross on the lawn are trying to misdirect suspicion.
PM, that is a pretty wide brush you are using to paint with is it not? Someone on this board, is there something that leads you to make such a statement?
*********
The bright side if it was a racist they have been found too stupid to keep their mouths shut. A little over ten years ago we had someone find a burning cross on their lawn in Augusta. Those who did it were found by the end of the day. They were going around bragging about! If it was the Klan they would take credit for it if not they will make a statement saying it was not them. Racist can not keep their mouths shut!
Wow Box, that’s the most convoluted nonsense I’ve heard since justification for the Trinity.
“What happened this weekend won’t stop him, he said. Some of his “regulars” were rebuilding his wheelchair ramp on Monday afternoon.”
That’s karma that. The good you do comes back to you.
Right about now, the goon or goons who did this are skulking around in the shadows and looking over their shoulders afraid they’ll be caught. That’s right about what they deserve as well.
WD, there is only one thing that burning a cross in someone’s yard represents, and it aint bubbles and rainbows. Don’t defend the indefensible.
“Wow Box, that’s the most convoluted nonsense I’ve heard since justification for the Trinity.”
Only a complete moron would argue the meaning of the Methodist Church logo with the very Church that developed, copyrighted and uses it.
What a moron, I expect more out of EVEN you ‘mama’. Go get some coffee before returning.
http://unitedmethodist.org/
The Cross and Flame is a registered trademark and the use is supervised by the General Council on Finance and Administration of The United Methodist Church. Permission to use the Cross and Flame must be obtained from the General Council on Finance and Administration of The United Methodist Church:
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1563
mama, I know you are rather slow so here’s another link to clear your cloud filled mind.
History
Adopted shortly after the merger of The Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren Church. It relates The United Methodist church to God through Christ (cross) and the Holy Spirit (flame). The flame is a reminder of Pentecost when witnesses were unified by the power of the Holy Spirit and saw “tongues, as of fire” (Acts 2:3).The two tongues of a single flame may also be understood to represent the union of two denominations. [1]
Usage
The cross and flame was registered as a trademark in 1971(for the purpose of preventing its misuse) and is intended only for official United Methodist agencies, including local churches.
http://www.answers.com/topic/cross-and-flame
#
Political_mama
Posted January 7, 2009 at 6:19 am | Permalink
What the hail is wrong with people.
I hope they get who did it, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if its someone who posts on this board.
______________________________
Is that a confession?
I am not defending the action but I am pointing out that it is not always done based on race.
The intent maybe the same to scare them, but like the robber whom puts on a afro and colors his face and hands Brown. it to mislead those whom see it into thinking it is someone they are not.
My comment was more on you implying it might have been someone on this board. OK this will open up an old wound but its like when one of the Prices accused BJ of going to child Porn sites. The charge is so heavy with seriousness should it be made lightly? That is what I am saying.
I am shocked. And angered.
Monk,
The burning cross (despite what the Klan says) is not a christian symbol at all; it’s the traditional pagan celtic call to war, carried from village to village.
As usual dog provides us with a well reasoned response. Punish the perpetrators nothing more nothing less.
Poor fella, hope there is much attention give to the attacker by the police.
I see the burning cross as a symbol of hate and intolerance.
I didn’t know the Methodist Church used a cross and flames as a trademark. When you need to explain the symbol because it could be misinterpreted, maybe you need to think about what it might convey without the explanation.
#
Jed
Posted January 7, 2009 at 8:46 am | Permalink
Monk,
The burning cross (despite what the Klan says) is not a christian symbol at all; it’s the traditional pagan celtic call to war, carried from village to village.
————————-
So you are saying that the cross that Jesus was crucified upon is Celtic?
Talk about historical revision. :D
I’m glad you use the term “claim” JR.
A could time to use the lipstick on a pig reference.
But it is perfectly alright to burn an effigy of Sarah Palin or even George Bush, or maybe hang them from your front yard in a noose.
The cross or tau was being used thousands of years before Christ. Rome used it for torture.
In any case, I hope the dumb asses get caught soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross
I always thought the Methodist cross had a blood soaked robe. I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
Seem to me that the libs are just trolling.
DFTT
The symbol of the cross is Celtic, Regular. I do believe 5000 BCE was before Christ. Whether the Romans intended the use of two pieces of wood for crucification to represent the same is something you could research. But weren’t many crucified on a cross before Christ was? Tied there instead of nailed?
http://www.celticsymbols.net/celtic-cross.html
OK folks — Let’s all read a bit of history:
http://www.celtarts.com/pagan.htm
“But it is perfectly alright to burn an effigy of Sarah Palin or even George Bush, or maybe hang them from your front yard in a noose.”
Did that happen in Wichita? Just askin’….
Maybe your Chamber, Economic Development, and CONvention and Visitors folks could make some hay here.
Wichita, the home of bigots. Just ask terry, joe, and their occasional visitor, Fred!
But it is perfectly alright to burn an effigy of Sarah Palin or even George Bush, or maybe hang them from your front yard in a noose.
Obama, too?
Obviously there was damage done to the man’s yard. Hanging Bush in my front yard might turn a lot of stomachs and anger many, but it isn’t destruction of property, just a sign of my frustration. ;)
For the record, I don’t hang anyone in effigy or otherwise, and I wouldn’t consider doing it. Now sticking pins in a voodoo doll is something else. Bwahahahaha
It’s the title of the blog that grabs my attention. “Cross Burning Shouldn’t Happen Anymore.” As if there was a time that it should have happened? Bigotry is a factual and (somewhat) historical aspect of our American culture. (I’m not insinuating that it isn’t a part of every other culture as well – in fact, America stacks up pretty well compared to most of the rest of the world.) Too many of us think it must have been okay to burn a cross in someone’s yard during the first half of the 20th century, but the government won’t let us get by with that now. I fear that it will be a couple more generations before bigotry is no longer an element of our socio-cultural mindset. Until then, it is just driven underground. Our politicians and celebrities keep it alive by playing their race cards (i.e., Blogo & OJ). Races continue to isolate themselves from diversity – things like “Black History Month” and referring to themselves as African American or Native American or Mexican American instead of just American. We still have a long way to go – all of us.
“The symbol of the cross is Celtic, Regular. I do believe 5000 BCE was before Christ.”
Sheesh is there ANYTHING early Christianity did not assimilate into their religion?
The cross the Romans used for crucification was more like a T.
donndublin
Posted January 7, 2009 at 9:26 am | Permalink
I always thought the Methodist cross had a blood soaked robe. I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
==========================================
The United Methodist symbol, as pointed out accurately above, IS the Cross and flame, and the flame is NOT to be seen as the Cross burning, but rather, the Flame of the symbolism for the Holy Spirit…. as in the “tongues as of fire” in the Book of Acts, Ch. 2…. The other predominant symbol for the Holy Spirit, is the descending dove, as is mentioned in Mark 4, the Baptism of Jesus, which, in the Liturgical Calendar is to be observed this Sunday, Jan. 11.
If you look at the United Methodist symbol, you will see that the flame does not actually touch the cross. It is behind the cross.
Google Methodist Church + Slavery.
Seems they were just as conflicted with some churches loving slavery and some wanting it abolished as they are about ordaining gay clergy.
Which they dont.
I disagree WAR. Bigots have just moved from racial bigotry to gay bigotry.
Even if gay folks manage some form of equality in the next CENTURY, the majority will STILL find someone else to hold down.
It’s a human thing. They’ll just move on to another target.
“I didn’t know the Methodist Church used a cross and flames as a trademark. When you need to explain the symbol because it could be misinterpreted, maybe you need to think about what it might convey without the explanation.”—lindainks55
But when you are dealing with morons that could go on without end, Ad nauseam.
The symbol means exactly what they mean it to mean nothing more, and not what any and all lame brains try to make of it.
donndublinPosted January 7, 2009 at 9:26 am |
“I always thought the Methodist cross had a blood soaked robe. I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
Seem to me that the libs are just trolling.
DFTT”
AMEN.
If the hanging display of any political figure is considered “Freedom of Speech” then that would make it advocacy of the assassination of that leader and thus punishable under the law.
Hmm, well besides the negative racists connotations, I think a Cross Burning on fire, looks kind of pretty at night. Well, I don’t know that it looks pretty, because I’ve never done it, but I imagine it looks pretty. Too bad the KKK gave a burning cross a bad name, we should turn it into something postive, maybe I want to have a burning cross in my yard someday, and maybe it will stand for the Holy Baptizing fire of Christs spirit.
Some Christians spread their Christian love with burning crosses, others leave tracts with the same message. Really little difference.
I wonder how the CONs square this hate crime with their long-held belief that minorities are not discriminated against in the United States.
Be a CON . . . it’s easier than thinking.
“I wonder how the CONs square this hate crime with their long-held belief that minorities are not discriminated against in the United States.”
The family is white. We will be a minority soon enough.
Funny, bigotbawks was posting here but never answered my challenge on the open thread to PROVE that there were precincts with more votes for Franken than registered voters.
Come on bigotbawks, you take pride in your lies.
Just not this particular one?
Come on boy, I’m calling you out.
Here’s the helpful link. Again.
http://www.sos.state.mn.us/home/index.asp?page=885
It doesnt matter what kind of crime this was here in Wichita… The bottom line is that it was a despicable act…. It definitely was intended to send a message to the family on who’s lawn it was burned… And that message wasnt one of love and peace…
Need anything more be said???
As for the United Methodists and other denominations that use a Cross and Flame type of symbolism…. Their is no comparison of these two usages….
KFG, yes it is true that there were some Methodists in the South that were not opposed to slavery…. The same with some Old South Presbyterians…
There were divisions in the Methodist Church… Southern Methodists… and Methodist Episcopal… A simple search for “Methodist History” should explain the differences.
“Come on boy, I’m calling you out.”
Uh huh. Good luck with that.
I think he’s under the refrigerator. Or maybe behind the stove.
“The bottom line is that it was a despicable act….”
Are you shocked and angry?
Absolutely!!
Me too.
If the family is white, maybe the cross burners are black. hmmmmmm?
I am still shocked and angered, by the way.
What are the potential charges here?
Criminal threat, KSA 21-3419, level 9 person felony.
Arson, 21-3720, potentially (if the ramp is considered to be part of the “dwelling”) a level 6 person felony.
Both could be charged, in fact; they are not mutual exclusive.
Notice (not trying to stir an old pot) that neither of these require any particular “hate crimes” law to prosecute, though in a criminal threat prosecution, the history and symbolism of the burning cross is certainly relevant. I sincerely hope the perpetrator is prosecuted to the fullest extent.
BTW – MH, accusing the United Methodists of being “racist” because of their particular symbol is the lamest of your generally lame accusations yet; it ranks right up there with the secret “code words” you conviently attribute to anyone you disagree with.
I did read that “methodist history” Chas. I dont think they were any worse than any other religion at the time.
My point is, they are equally conflicted now about ordaining gay clergy. Same song, just a different verse.
Bigotry never has a time limit.
My ex belongs to a reconciled methodist church in Austin. But her girlfriend, who recently graduated from the seminary there, cant be ordained unless she lies and denies she is gay. She can be a lay person, but not an ordained minister. Even in a reconciled congregation.
Same song, different verse.
The symbol means exactly what they mean it to mean nothing more, and not what any and all lame brains try to make of it.
That’s well and good for those who are aware of the symbols of Christianity. But what does it convey to those who aren’t?
(MH, quit poking them with a stick to rile them up.)
Here’s an interesting paper on a site regarding the history of the cross.
http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p039.html
Terroristic threat is usually in the law books as a crime. But the offenders can claim religious freedom. A lot of criminal activity is excused in the name of religion, including killing your own children.
Funny that the act is an act of Christian terrorism but, since it’s Christian, it’s listed merely as a crime, rather than an act of terrorism.
Another recent example of Christian terrorism:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008597989_ricinthreat07m.html
Maggie, if you know that the cross burners are Christians, you must know who they are. Did you know it is a crime to withhold that information?
What? You don’t know who they are? You were just spouting anti-Christian bigotry again?
That’s what I thought, Maggie.
“My ex belongs to a reconciled methodist church in Austin. But her girlfriend, who recently graduated from the seminary there, cant be ordained unless she lies and denies she is gay.”
Good Grief….how many ex’s do you have???
And “her girlfriend”, what a sick’o, dysfunctional person.
“She can be a lay person, but not an ordained minister. Even in a reconciled congregation.”
Good, as it should be for a scripture based church.
The symbol means exactly what they mean it to mean nothing more, and not what any and all lame brains try to make of it.
Predestined, Posted
“That’s well and good for those who are aware of the symbols of Christianity. But what does it convey to those who aren’t?”
That’s a situation the unaware should address before getting all upset. Why should the perfectly innocent and appropriate use of a symbol be unusable because some uneducated overly sensitive person or group gets it wrong.
People need to grow up and forget all the P.C. crap.
“Chas” –
The Methodists’ official story for their burning cross logo reminds me of that a dawn-of-civilization “happy face” that was all the rage 6,000 years ago. Ancient Turks loved it. Tibetans wove it into their baskets and blankets. Navajos painted it in the sand and on their pottery. Norsemen engraved on those funny helmets they wore, the ones with the Hagar the Horrible horns. It’s seen on the walls of prehistoric caves as a stylized representation of the bountiful sun. Sanskrit gave it a name, a combination of “su,” or good, and “asti,” to be; in other words, it means “well-being.”
Then Adolph Hitler came along, adopted the hooked cross (Hakencreuz) as a symbol of Arian purity or a cog in the machine that was to be a thousand year Reich, whatever, the point is: Hitler came along and ruined the swastika for all the rest of us. Wear it now, or tattoo it on your forehead as Charlie Manson did, and most people will figure out you’re pretty much of a kook. No “bountiful sun.” No “well-being.” Kook, pure and simple. Not to mention: loser.
Both the Methodists and the Presbyterians adopted their burning cross logos well after the symbol became co-opted by the Ku Klux Klan.
If they find the perps of the latest Wichita cross-burning, their lawyers should try to defend them by claiming it’s “in recognition of Pentecost.” Wonder how a jury would see it.
Hey bigotbawks, still waiting for you to back up your lies on the open.
Ignoring it will not make it go away.
What a prideful liar you are…
That’s your unattributed, unsupported, and politically self-serving CLAIM, Capn, that conservatives have a long-held belief that minorities are not discriminated against in the United States.
Get it right.
Conservatives know better; we also know better than to use that shameful history of racism and bigotry today as self-serving political leverage.
As you are attempting to do.
Maggotpunk
Posted January 7, 2009 at 10:52 am | Permalink
Funny that the act is an act of Christian terrorism but, since it’s Christian, it’s listed merely as a crime, rather than an act of terrorism.
=====================================
According to Chas and Jed, it’s Celtic terrorism.
“Hey bigotbawks, still waiting for you to back up your lies on the open.
Ignoring it will not make it go away.
What a prideful liar you are…”
I did dumb a s s, go read it.
“Good Grief….how many ex’s do you have???
And “her girlfriend”, what a sick’o, dysfunctional person.”
Isnt it funny that bigotbawks doesnt recognize the number of divorced cons on the blog? Only me? hehehhe. HAHAHAHAHAH.
And he routinely trashes chas and now my ex’s girlfriend. Who graduated with honors from the seminary?
What a maroon. The depth of his/her bigotry is astounding.
Why dont you insult some more divorced straight folks, bigotbawks?
And back up your Franken lies while you are at it.
As Agnatha said about kia, he/she is rapidly becoming a pathetic figure on the blog.
Gee bigotbawks, I dont see ANY proof that there were more votes counted for Franken than there were registered voters.
Perhaps, since I’m such a dumbass, you could repost it?
And when do you intend to call out the divorced cons and christians here?
Outlander whines,
“Maggie, if you know that the cross burners are Christians, you must know who they are. Did you know it is a crime to withhold that information?”
I know you are dense but the cross is a Christian symbol, burning it is an act of the Christian faith, we live in a predominately Christian community. Thankfully those in law enforcement aren’t as dense as you to think 80 year old Buddhists are probable suspects. But, by all means, report me to the police.
““My ex belongs to a reconciled methodist[sic] church in Austin. But her girlfriend, who recently graduated from the seminary there, cant be ordained unless she lies and denies she is gay.”
Hey farmer, is that what you are advocating? Lying so as to be ordained as a minister in a Church that rightfully, according to the scripture they accept as the Word of God, condemns? Interesting insight into your morality.
Who’s calling who a liar, ha.
BTW, Maggot; “terrroristic threat” is contained in Kansas as “criminal threat, KSA 21-3419. And there is no “religious freedom” exception to the statute; in fact, religious freedom is rarely if ever a valid claim to exception to applicability of the law.
No, she isnt lying and I’m not advocating it. She is NOT getting ordained. But she does serve the congregation in a lay capacity.
And THIS is your proof on the open that there were, to quote you, more votes for Franken than registered voters?
Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 10:30 am | Permalink
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Note, bigotbawks believes the WSJ and NOT the Minnesota Sec. of State.
Yep. You lied. You got caught. And just like your lies with JR, you try to weasel out of it.
Weak. Very weak.
SUCH a good christian. Heheh. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH.
outlander
Posted January 7, 2009 at 10:59 am | Permalink
Maggie, if you know that the cross burners are Christians, you must know who they are. Did you know it is a crime to withhold that information?
What? You don’t know who they are? You were just spouting anti-Christian bigotry again?
That’s what I thought, Maggie.
* * * * *
Does anyone else think it is “cute” that outlander has these perfectly complete conversations with himself?
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 7:52 am | Permalink
What a joke, and not a very funny one.
More votes coming from precincts than registered voters. And from those that ‘found’ votes for the the little rat Democrat Al Franken.”
Still waiting for you to prove that.
You are going to have to learn to do those simple things on your own ‘farmer’.
It’s there, you keep looking.
I’ll be back later to see if your are still bumbling around in your dark universe looking.
For now I’ve got things to do, just placed an order for a few ounces of gold and need to get a bank check on the way to lock in my price.
Nice looking coin I think:
http://www.apmex.com/Product/46163/2009___1_oz_Gold_Maple_Leaf___2010_Vancouver_LIVE.aspx
heh Steven. They can only be right when they argue with themselves…
I wonder if it hurts to have that many voices in their own heads?
GMC70, sure there isn’t a religious exemption to a lot of crimes but it doesn’t stop people from using it as a defense. One recent crime is that someone smuggled monkey body parts into the country. It’s illegal to smuggle such things into the country but he said it was part of his Christian beliefs to eat monkey meat.
http://www.nysun.com/new-york/dispute-over-monkey-meat-hits-on-religious-freedom/60839/
Doesn’t hurt to try I suppose.
Proof. It’s so easy if you are telling the truth.
Here’s the helpful link, again, to the official vote count.
No precinct reports more votes for Franken than registered voters. None. Nada. Zero.
But we are amused with your lies, and we do encourage you to play again. We need the laughs.
Oh, and I’m still waiting on you to call out the divorced, straight, cons and christians.
Hypocrisy, thy name is….
Anyone notice how it is those who don’t like Christianity who are constantly bashing Christians on here?
Yet they are the ones claiming how much of bigots Christians are?
Liberals love to project what they actually are onto others.
http://www.sos.state.mn.us/home/index.asp?page=885
Lies. They are not just for breakfast anymore.
Nathan whines,
“Anyone notice how it is those who don’t like Christianity who are constantly bashing Christians on here?”
Notice anyone other than Christians burning crosses? Funny how a thread topic, about the expression of Christian faith and love, motivates people to talk about Christians. Imagine that.
Maggotpunk,
Tell me how you know it was Christians burning that cross?
I know you are dense but the cross is a Christian symbol, burning it is an act of the Christian faith,
———-
Really Maggie, what denomination?
Already explained above Nathan. You are aware that a Christian group does practice burning the cross just as Catholics take communion don’t you? I suggest you educate yourself a bit more about Christianity. Perhaps you’ll realize the symbol of Christianity is the cross and burning is an act of cleansing (kinda like why Christians burned women at the stake). But educating you is a futile effort.
It was obviously atheists burning the cross. Who else would burn the symbol of the Christian faith?
Outlander, who doesn’t read articles says,
“Really Maggie, what denomination?”
Ever hear of the Klan? Probably you have, but you are intent of looking more ignorant than usual today.
Maggotpunk,
What Christian group burns crosses?
How do you know it was them in this case?
What Christian group believes that burning the cross is an act of cleansing?
Why do the dumbest people on this blog comment on threads about an article they’ve never read? I suppose it’s their obsession with remaining uninformed.
Yea, Maggot, they can try to use it as a defense. And it should go nowhere fast; frankly, a judge shouldn’t even allow it to be argued, as it simply is not a legal defense.
I can also claim the CIA told me to do it, but that’s just as unlikely to fly.
In fact, Pleefer’s probably used that one . . . .
;-)
Hey, that’s not fair to Pleefer. You know they implanted something into him that makes his apt to suggestion.
Heheheh. But from their own website, THIS is pretty funny.
“News Release
Disclaimer :
NOTE: The Ku Klux Klan, LLC. has not or EVER will have ANY connection with The “Westboro Baptist Church”. We absolutely repudiate their activities. ”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH
Jesus, even the KLAN repudiates phred phelps!
Maggotpunk,
The KKK is not a denomination of Christianity.
“outlander” –
As Christians posting above have noted, the burning cross IS a symbol of the Christian faith. Vividly and graphically in the cases of the Methodists and Presbyterians.
And the Ku Klux Klan has always wrapped their enterprise in Christian rhetoric.
That’s a lie there Monkey. But you knew that.
MonkeyHawk,
As also noted above, the symbol used by the Methodists is not a burning cross.
It is not a symbol of the Christian faith either.
Either way, how do any of you know who this cross was burnt by?
Thanks Nathan, I should have used the word ’sect’. But they’re very much Christian.
Need I remind you guys that the google is your friend?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_burning
Google KKK + Cross burning and see what you find.
It’s christian. All the way.
Denomination? WTF? In THEIR OWN WORDS they do it as a reminder of christian faith.
It’s cross denominational and non denominational. Just like the fundy churches.
Regular
Posted January 7, 2009 at 11:04 am | Permalink
Maggotpunk
Posted January 7, 2009 at 10:52 am | Permalink
Funny that the act is an act of Christian terrorism but, since it’s Christian, it’s listed merely as a crime, rather than an act of terrorism.
=====================================
According to Chas and Jed, it’s Celtic terrorism.
===============================================
According to ME, I said no such thing…. And neither did JED…. I pointed out that the United Methodist Cross and Flame symbol is NOT a burning cross… that the two are separate…. Please note that MH…
Reguliar, you just LIE to be LYING…. I never said ANYTHING about Celtic terrorism… Get your head out of your undies, and READ, instead of making up your usual LIES….
The Methodists symbol is that of a cross next to a burning flame which represents the spirit. It is not a burning cross.
The Presbytarian cross is adorned with a burning bush. It is not a burning cross.
And the Ku Klux Klan has always wrapped their enterprise in Christian rhetoric.
Which by no means makes them Christian, anymore than you calling yourself intelligent makes it so.
The Methodists have stated clearly what their symbol is and what it stands for; anything else is what YOU choose to make it to further your agenda.
In other words, it’s your problem, not theirs. They are not responsible for your bigotry.
Just wondering kfg, are prison thugs who are gay that rape other prisoners representatives of the gay community?
KFG,
So at best, we have a hate group called the KKK which claims to be a Christian group.
That makes up less than 1% of Christianity in this country and the other 99% solidly denounce what the KKK does.
Yet, you liberals keep using the term Christian in the generic sense.
You are being intellectually dishonest in an attempt to further your hatred and bigotry of Christianity.
Lies, Chas. It’s all they’ve got.
I’m waiting for the “not REAL christians” whine in three…two…one….
You, Chas, are one of the FEW real christians here, along with samkan and a few others.
Chas,
Why don’t you help explain what the symbol is for the Methodists and Presbytarians and dispell the lies which the liberals on here are trying to put forth?
Nathaniel posted:
Maggotpunk,
Tell me how you know it was Christians burning that cross?
Nathaniel, he doesn’t, you know that he is just a prejudiced idiot, trying to bait people he thinks he doesn’t agree with.
By definition anyone burning a cross out of racism would not be Christian, but Maggots are mindless.
Maggot, I gotta call you on this one… The only groups I know of that burn a cross as part of their gatherings, would be the KKK, and the Christian Identity movement…. The KKK is not a denomination…. And I dont know of anybody except the Christian Identity movement that would consider THEM to be a denomination…. Christian Identity — while small — does have ties to the Aryan Nations…
As to the poster who thinks a burning cross is “pretty” —- perhaps that poster might be one of the perpetrators???
I say we dont give this incident any more publicity than it has already received… I say lets leave it in the hands of law enforcement, and the Courts to bring it to conclusion ASAP….
I say, Rhonda, please close further comments on this thread, before it gets out of hand….
“So at best, we have a hate group called the KKK which claims to be a Christian group.”
A lot of Christians are bigots, like the majority of voters who voted against marriage in Kansas. So, does that mean haters like you Nathan, aren’t really Christian?
Errands are calling…. Back later!!
I am still waiting for anyone to explain how they know who it was that burned this cross?
Anyone?
Well, we know this was the work of a CON. Nobody but a CON would do this. Also we know that CONS typically can be identified by the fact that they go to church and vote Republican. This is why we need to exterminate all Republicans and church going Christians because they are all CONS and CONS do stuff like this.
It is time we expose the CONS for what they really represent. They do stuff like this and they should eradicated.
Anybody want to join Monkeyhawk, Bluejay, P_mom and the Capn for a CON hunt this weekend?
I hear that CONS float when you toss em in the river.
Reg, you assume that raping someone of the same sex makes them gay. It doesnt. I bet if you asked THEM, they’d say they are not gay. So how can they represent the gay community?
But then, you already knew that. I’ve had sex with a man. It didnt mean I was straight.
I tend to believe people when THEY say who/what they are. If someone SAYS they are a christian organization, then I believe them. If you can quote these hypothetical rapists that THEY say they are gay, we’ll talk.
“Chas,
Why don’t you help explain what the symbol is for the Methodists and Presbytarians and dispell the lies which the liberals on here are trying to put forth?”
He already did Nathan. Are you reading impaired?
Maggotpunk,
You have to accept the premise that not supporting gay marriage makes someone a bigot.
I do not.
I do not hate gay people either.
Why do you hate Christians?
So Boxlicker, based upon what you know about the acts and the environment it happened it what, do you think, would be some characteristics of the people or person who did it? Clearly you think it isn’t a Christian, so that narrows it down quite a bit doesn’t it?
Male, White, Christian, in his 20s or early 30s is the most probable suspect to target. But do tell me which sort of suspect you’d be looking for? An elderly Buddhist female of Asia descent?
Thanks Nathan, if denying certain people of their civil rights doesn’t make you a hater I’d hate to see what an expression of hate from you would look like.
Heh, right on cue, at 11:42, bigotbawks makes the “not real christians” statement.
“I say we dont give this incident any more publicity than it has already received”
Chas, with all due respect…
You have heard that silence = death, no?
silence equals death
Or as Edmund Burke said, all evil needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
“Google KKK + Cross burning and see what you find.
It’s christian. All the way.”—the village idiot
Regular, exactly. Just because a group claims association with another does not make it so.
Otherwise, since kfg is gay, she is the same as a gay raping someone in prison if they claim so.
Since being a Christian is a requirement to belong to the KKK it’s plausible to assume that all members of the KKK are Christian. But that’s just common sense, don’t expect the CONS to understand it.
Heh bigotbawks.
Only if being a white male straight rapist is who you are too, since there are SO many of them.
Maggotpunk,
Again, you have to accept the premise that homosexual marriage is a civil right.
I do not.
The only person consistently wrapped in hatred here is you, towards Christians.
So, once again, how do you know who it was that burned this cross and why have you not shared your information with the Police yet?
And when motorcycle gangs decorate their rides with swastikas, it’s just their embrace of the ancient tantric symbol for a “bountiful son.”
Pull the other leg.
Two mainstream protestant sects choose depictions of a cross enveloped by fire — “It’s the spirit of Pentecost,” or “They merely burning bushes…” at the base of a cross! — and the CONs convolute logic and their lyin’ eyes to rationalize it.
I think someone should start a solar energy company and — in honor of the ancient symbol for “a bountiful sun,” use a swastika as its logo. Who could possibly misinterpret it?
“But do tell me which sort of suspect you’d be looking for? An elderly Buddhist female of Asia descent?”
Somebody like you Maggot, somebody just like you.
The authorities should look into that.
Lies, and the lying liars who tell them.
Franken was SO right!
Separate but equal Nathan? Who else endorsed that concept? Oh yes, your KKK brethren.
Boxwhiner claims,
“Somebody like you Maggot, somebody just like you.
The authorities should look into that.”
Then why aren’t you doing your civil duty and reporting me as a suspect? Can’t back up your claims? Typical coward.
“The only person consistently wrapped in hatred here is you, towards Christians.”
Awwwww. I’m hurt.
I consider it good company to agree with Maggotpunk and Monkeyhawk. Even if we dont always agree, I’m glad to be associated with them.
I’m really hurt that I was left out of the group there, nathan.
Boxlock,
Good point. Because some gay people are indeed social deviants which rape and molest children, all gay people must be just like that!
KFG, why do you belong to a group which rapes little children?
“KFG, why do you belong to a group which rapes little children?”
WTF are you talking about?
I’m NOT a catholic priest!
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 11:48 am | Permalink
“Google KKK + Cross burning and see what you find.
It’s christian. All the way.”—the village idiot
Regular, exactly. Just because a group claims association with another does not make it so.
Otherwise, since kfg is gay, she is the same as a gay raping someone in prison if they claim so.”
So not all Muslims are out to get us, even though a few extremists who happen to be Muslim are?
Perhaps not all Palestinians want Isreal obliterated even though some extremists do…
MonkeyHawk,
All you have to do is look at the history of the symbol and what it actually is to see the truth.
Instead you simply look at the symbol now and come up with your own twisted idea of what it is regardless of history or the truth.
You are an intellectual fraud and choose to remain willfully ignorant to further your own bigotry and hatred of Christians.
“An elderly Buddhist female of Asia descent?”
Damn. I’m looking for someone just like that, although the elderly part is optional.
Got any phone numbers?
Nathan, since you think all Catholics rape children what made you hate Christians?
KFG,
Why do you condone raping children?
You ask for my opinion Maggot…you got it.
Typical, you throw a hissy fit when you get it. ha ha!
Brian, you always have great posts!
Boxlicker, are you calling the police on me yet? What are you waiting for? Do you need permission from your mommy first?
“Why do you condone raping children?”
I dont.
It was the christian catholic church who provided sanctuary for those rapist priests, remember?
“Nathaniel
Posted January 7, 2009 at 11:53 am | Permalink
Boxlock,
Good point. Because some gay people are indeed social deviants which rape and molest children, all gay people must be just like that!”
Actually, more straight people molest children than do gay people. So you better be careful around the kiddies Nathan.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
This is all too easy.
I think I’ll go to town today for a cheeseburger and chicken feed, in that order.
I’ll be on the look out for some elderly Buddhist women of Asian descent though, even if they are few and far between out here…
brian_nuevo,
You’ll not get any argument out of me on that.
That’s exactly what I KNOW to be true.
Most Muslims and Palestinians simply what to live their lives and raise their families in peace. They don’t want their children to blow themselves up or be blown up. But there are, very unfortunately, a large number that do! And there are not enough of the rest doing anything about it.
Do you think the Lutherans or Baptists would not be putting an end to the terrorism that some of their members were doing in their name if they were?
There is no doubt that fire is part of the Christian tradition. God is described as a “consuming fire”. He caused a burning bush to appear to Moses. The Holy Spirit descended in tongues of fire on the apostles. We talk about being on fire for the Lord.
But should we be surprised when anti-Christian bigots to attempt to link what is good with those that do things against the teachings of our Master? That sort of thing happens when Christians interface with the godless. It will always be that way, until He returns.
Oh, but before I go, from Psychology today.
Homosexuality and pedophilia, the false link.
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/gay039s-anatomy/200809/homosexuality-and-pedophilia-the-false-link
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:01 pm | Permalink
…
Do you think the Lutherans or Baptists would not be putting an end to the terrorism that some of their members were doing in their name if they were?”
Funny, I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist church protests outside of KKK compounds…
I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist protests outside Westboro Baptist Church….
KFG,
No kidding? Can you be that stupid?
Of course all homosexuals are not pedophiles.
The point is that neither are all Christians cross burning members of the KKK.
You liberals couldn’t get a point if it was stuck in your eye.
This thread is typical of this blog.
Everyone here understands the meaning of burning a cross in someone’s yard. Everyone here condemns such an act. Everyone here hopes the perpetrators are caught and fully prosecuted.
Yet here we are, taking meaningless and gratuitous pot shots at each other over irrelevent matters. Some on the left here wasted no time in turning this matter into an opportunity to bash those they hate. Not surprisingly, their targets respond, and the endless bickering is on again.
Why? What possible gain is there?
KKK compounds? Where are those located at Brian?
Apparently Nathan failed in reading comprehension again. Nobody claimed all Christians were members of the KKK, just that all members of the KKK are Christian. But what’s the point in trying to educate Nathan?
interesting link ksfarmgrrl.
Another one on that site that cracked me up:
Questions for Heterosexuals
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/gay039s-anatomy/200810/the-heterosexual-questionnaire
“Boxlock20″ –
I’ll posit a lot of Klansmen belong to a Baptist church.
Funny, I don’t recall the law that says that if brian nuevo doesn’t recall something, it never happened.
Brian,
Why on Earth would we want to draw attention to these groups by protesting them?
How will that stop them?
There are much better things to do with our time.
KKK Compounds?
Sorry, I’d love to stay making fun of idiots but I have things to do. I suppose it must be cross burning or something. One thing I won’t be doing is waiting for the police because Boxlicker is too cowardly to call them on me to make some false police reports.
“outlander
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:06 pm | Permalink
KKK compounds? Where are those located at Brian?”
Never had any desire to find out. I hear there are some in northern Arkansas though.
“Nathaniel
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:08 pm | Permalink
Brian,
Why on Earth would we want to draw attention to these groups by protesting them?
How will that stop them?
There are much better things to do with our time.”
But yet you expect peace-loving Palestinians to stop those trying to incite violence with Isreal?
“RFL
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:08 pm | Permalink
Funny, I don’t recall the law that says that if brian nuevo doesn’t recall something, it never happened.”
Why is it always about the law with you?
Brian,
Expect them to stop the violence? No.
I expect them to not cry about their house being blown up when they know someone is in there launching rockets.
Or, to maybe not elect the very group which allows those rockets to be shipped in, stored, and then launched from all over their territory.
Nope, I don’t expect them to do anything at all to stop bad and evil people from trying to kill Israel people.
Just don’t cry about it when Israel does.
I always thought the hoods/masks were a dead giveaway of a “secret society”.
I’m sure they have compounds and club houses. Being able to locate and protest at one would be another matter.
“GMC70″ –
The meta-message of this thread is the power of symbolism.
We all know what a burning cross symbolizes in America. It symbolizes hate. The movement which, ahem, burned it into our consciousness is overtly racist, anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic, and Christian.
Both Presbyterian and Methodist logos are — judging by the artistic stles — from the 80s or later; long after the imagery of the burning cross was seared into the consciousness of Americans. And they did it anyway!
As I recall, their logos were developed when each denomination completed a major merger with rival — particularly southern and conservative — churches. (The Meths with the EUBs and some others; the northern Presbys with their southern counterparts.)
From a strictly marketing standpoint, the Meths and the Presbys should have realized there are connotations of a burning cross that might make some people diffident about choosing a church home.
In my town, for example, both the Presbyterians and Methodists are all lily-white congregations. What person of color would want to walk under a burning cross every Sunday to worship?
And its symbolism is far more subtle than a “Whites Only” sign.
“Funny, I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist church protests outside of KKK compounds…
I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist protests outside Westboro Baptist Church….”
WRONG!!! There have been lots and lots of protests and opposition to any and all of what you are describing.
“Expect them to stop the violence? No.
I expect them to not cry about their house being blown up when they know someone is in there launching rockets.”
Good point, that’s just what should be happening.
If someone takes up a position close to my house and is shooting up the neighborhood or police and I just sit there I can expect to receive collateral damage.
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:29 pm | Permalink
“Funny, I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist church protests outside of KKK compounds…
I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist protests outside Westboro Baptist Church….”
WRONG!!! There have been lots and lots of protests and opposition to any and all of what you are describing.”
OK, so you are claiming other Baptist churches have protested outside of Westboro Baptist?
gimme a link to that news story…
So, MH, you’re saying that because of the Methodists’ and Presbyterians’ choice of symbols – both of which make reference to important biblical symbolism, which their own writings make crystal clear – YOU conclude that they’re racist.
And have the arrogance to proclaim that because that is what you choose to see, it must be so.
Right.
You see exactly what you want to see, MH. You then proceed to use same to justify your own bigotry; as evidenced on the very first post – yours – on this thread. You need no assistance or reason to hate; and you look for offense, real or imagined, at every turn, to serve your own agenda.
Look in the mirror; check out the log in your own eye, MH.
Boxic,
I remember quite well sitting in a Southern Baptist church about 43 years ago, and hearing the preacher begging the lord to send an avenging angel to put an end that awful “Martin Luther Coon.” I also remember vividly the hordes of good christians screaming bible verses at us that they claimed mandated racism and threatening us with ax handles and baseball bats and tire irons when we went to register black voters. To be fair, there were a few (damn few) white catholic priests and other clergy on our side, but they were outnumbered by the bigots something fierce!
#
Jed
Posted January 7, 2009 at 1:17 pm | Permalink
Boxic,
I remember quite well sitting in a Southern Baptist church about 43 years ago, and hearing the preacher begging the lord to send an avenging angel to put an end that awful “Martin Luther Coon.” I also remember vividly the hordes of good christians screaming bible verses at us that they claimed mandated racism and threatening us with ax handles and baseball bats and tire irons when we went to register black voters. To be fair, there were a few (damn few) white catholic priests and other clergy on our side, but they were outnumbered by the bigots something fierce!
==========================
I remember 43 years ago the black membership we had in our Baptist Church.
Evidently Jed has selective or perhaps inventive memory.
Sure you did, Jed- Teller of Tall Tales.
But even if it were true, that was a long time ago. I remember hearing the eeny meeny miney moe… the racist way at elementary school.
We have come a long ways. Now if we could get you old guys up to the present.
Evidently, Reggie and outie are in a severe state of denial.
“gimme a link to that news story…”—brian
brian, are you so inept you can’t find the links to these stories on your own? I simply don’t have the time to entertain such incompetence, but maybe this will get you started.
“While its members identify themselves as Baptists, WBC is an independent church and is not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations. The church describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles, though mainstream Primitive Baptists reject Westboro Baptist Church and Phelps, regarding them as unaffiliated to the Primitive Baptists. The views that distinguish Westboro Baptist Church are views that most Baptists and Calvinists do not recognize, and do not consider to be in any way characteristically Baptist or Calvinistic.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
Hundreds protest peacefully against Westboro Baptist Church
http://www.ktka.com/news/2008/mar/30/hundreds_protest_peacefully_against_Westboro_Bapti/
Protest Against The Westboro Baptist Church Attending Tim McLean’s Funeral. (you look it up)
God Hates Signs protest waged against Westboro Baptist Church (you look it up)
Protest aginst Westboro Baptist Church (you look it up)
Counter Protest against Westboro Baptist Church (you look it up)
Hundreds protest Fred Phelps and his church
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/17141626.html
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 1:41 pm | Permalink
“gimme a link to that news story…”—brian
brian, are you so inept you can’t find the links to these stories on your own?”
You make a claim, you back it up.
Monkeyhawk
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:25 pm | Permalink
The meta-message of this thread is the power of symbolism.
___________________________________
You’ve proved you don’t need symbolism Monkey. You just blatantly Christians. I wouldn’t be surprised if the police showed up at your place after monitoring this thread. Since the victims are white and most likely Christian by their deeds, you might have some explaining to do.
correction: You just blatantly hate Christians.
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 1:41 pm | Permalink
“gimme a link to that news story…”—brian”
OK, so I looked at your links and did a little googling of the things you listed and found 0 instances where it talked about a Baptist church (or church group) protesting the Baptist Church.
So when you wrote:
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:29 pm | Permalink
WRONG!!! There have been lots and lots of protests and opposition to any and all of what you are describing.”
Did you have a specific incident where another Baptist church protested the Westboro Baptist church, or were you just spouting off?
I did brian, can’t you open the links I provided and simply Google the others,
The Westboro Baptist Church is NOT a Baptist Church, and that according to the official Baptist Church.
They are no more under any obligation to ‘protest’ them than any one else.
Just because Fred Phelps says he has a Baptist Church doesn’t make it so.
Everyone disapproves and disassociates themselves from the Westboro Church, everyone except for themselves.
Don’t be dumb brian, or at least stop being dumb.
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 1:58 pm | Permalink
I did brian, can’t you open the links I provided and simply Google the others,
The Westboro Baptist Church is NOT a Baptist Church, and that according to the official Baptist Church.
They are no more under any obligation to ‘protest’ them than any one else.
Just because Fred Phelps says he has a Baptist Church doesn’t make it so.”
So apparently you were just factlessly spouting off when you wrote that there were Baptists protests outside Westboro:
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:29 pm | Permalink
“Funny, I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist church protests outside of KKK compounds…
I don’t recall any Lutheran or Baptist protests outside Westboro Baptist Church….”
WRONG!!! There have been lots and lots of protests and opposition to any and all of what you are describing.”
There were a ton of protests against the KKK by churches in the 1960s and 70s.
Don’t recall any recent ones, but now the KKK is not very active to my understanding.
Boxic,
As I recall, Phelps and Terry Fox were on speaking terms.
Oh come on brian, you are trying to make something out of nothing.
How do you know there were not Baptist and Lutherans that protested Phelps.
Phelps is not associated with either church and for them to associate even in protest would cause idiots like yourself to make something of it, just as you are proving now.
Grow up!
MH writes:
“From a strictly marketing standpoint, the Meths and the Presbys should have realized there are connotations of a burning cross that might make some people diffident about choosing a church home.”
Well Monkey come to Wichita and attend a service at St Mark Methodist Church. You are in for a pleasant surprise.
I think I have isolated the dims problem. They never expose their closed minds to fresh air and as a result have become stagnant.
“Boxic,
As I recall, Phelps and Terry Fox were on speaking terms.”—Jed
I’m on speaking terms with you Jed, does that make me the weird person you are…..of course not.
“Boxlock20
Posted January 7, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Permalink
Oh come on brian, you are trying to make something out of nothing.
How do you know there were not Baptist and Lutherans that protested Phelps.
Phelps is not associated with either church and for them to associate even in protest would cause idiots like yourself to make something of it, just as you are proving now.
Grow up!”
So is your attempt at redirection admission that you were indeed spouting off factless posts?
Boxic,
Gee, I didn’t know we were on speaking terms- I thought we were on cussing each other out terms!
“Boxlock20″ enlightens us with –
“The Westboro Baptist Church is NOT a Baptist Church…”
And Coca-Cola is not a cola.
“okobserver” invites me to her church –
“…Monkey come to Wichita and attend a service at St Mark Methodist Church. You are in for a pleasant surprise.”
You are a member, right?
“I remember quite well sitting in a Southern Baptist church about 43 years ago, and hearing the preacher begging the lord to send an avenging angel to put an end that awful “Martin Luther Coon.” ”
I don’t doubt that. I also don’t doubt that still is the case in a very few quite backward places.
But we have come a long way, thank God. And we still have a ways to go.
Accusing others of racism when there is no evidence of same, however, for the sake of political gain or just to justify one’s own persona bigotries does not advance the cause.
Monkey while I have attend several services there – no I am not a member. But FYI I haven’t noticed any blacks turning away because they don’t like the Methodist symbol.
Don’t try to change the subject. You made a statement on somethig about which you don’t have a clue and now want the question to be ‘where I go to church’.
Nice try.
“The Mark” sure looks like the Methodists’ “separate but equal” congregation.
Why aren’t you a member, “okobserver?”
Monkey, it is quite normal to find nearly all white congregations, in nearly all white communities….
FYI, St. Mark UMC is not a totally black congregation… It is predominantly Black… It is a part of the Kansas West Conference, of the United Methodist Church…
As for gay United Methodist Seminary graduates, they have a choice… they either keep their mouths shut(not many will opt for that), or they can remain non-ordained, and work in the life and ministry of a congregation as a lay person… OR, they can transfer their membership, and meet the requirements for Ordination in denominations that accept openly gay clergy…. a number of which do not allow a “live-in” partner….
#
Maggotpunk
Posted January 7, 2009 at 11:55 am | Permalink
Nathan, since you think all Catholics rape children what made you hate Christians?
#
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 7, 2009 at 11:54 am | Permalink
“KFG, why do you belong to a group which rapes little children?”
WTF are you talking about?
I’m NOT a catholic priest!
#
Nathaniel
Posted January 7, 2009 at 11:55 am | Permalink
KFG,
Why do you condone raping children?
#
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 7, 2009 at 11:57 am | Permalink
“Why do you condone raping children?”
I dont.
It was the christian catholic church who provided sanctuary for those rapist priests, remember?
___________________________________
You’re the one that needs to be educated, PUNK.
AFRICAN METHODIST EPISCOPAL (A.M.E) uses the cross in their logo, does that mean that they are supporting the KKK. As stated by okobserver, go to St. Marks on north Oliver in Wichita, KS; if you didn’t know this, the congregation is predominately black. Their logo; same as every other Methodist church.
Burning a cross has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with war. In 1547, Scottish clansmen used the Fiery Cross (Crann Tara) as a symbol of unity and loyalty. Whenever an emergency arose, such as an attack or attempted invasion by rivals, the clan chieftain would dispatch runners carrying Fiery Crosses to assemble the warriors for the battle. The last recorded use of the Fiery Cross was during the Jacobite Rising in 1745.
“Chas” –
I just looked at St. Mark’s web site.
Not a white face in any of ‘em, near as I can tell.
The Google search showed me a map. “The Mark” is half a block away from Getto Street.
I had no idea Wichita had a “Getto” Street.
There are exceptions, of course, but Sunday morning in America remains as segregated as Alabama in the 50s.
I’m sorry, but the weasel word “predominately- ” in this context made me think how lynchings were “predominately” attended by whites; there was always a black person there, albeit as the entertainment.
The proof is in the puddin’. Would the Kansas West Conference assign a white pastor to St. Mark’s?
“The proof is in the puddin’. Would the Kansas West Conference assign a white pastor to St. Mark’s?”
Yep they would, and they have… Monkey, they appointed a black pastor to a United Methodist Church in Hardtner, KS, once as well…
The monkey is backpedaling now. Have the police showed up yet Monkey?
OK guys, can we remember it’s Faith, Hope and Charity, not Dogma, Conviction and Parity? Best bumor sticker ever…..”God Bless You, No Exemptions”.
It is written: “For God so loved the world…”
Chas,
The Unitarians have accepted openly gay clergy for well over thirty years, and they’ve found that if their minister has a live-in partner, the church often gets a two-fer. It’s working quite nicely.
“Backpedaling?”
What do you base that on?
• Monkeyhawk
Posted January 7, 2009 at 3:35 pm | Permalink
“Chas” –
I just looked at St. Mark’s web site.
Not a white face in any of ‘em, near as I can tell.
The Google search showed me a map. “The Mark” is half a block away from Getto Street.
I had no idea Wichita had a “Getto” Street.
There are exceptions, of course, but Sunday morning in America remains as segregated as Alabama in the 50s.
I’m sorry, but the weasel word “predominately- ” in this context made me think how lynchings were “predominately” attended by whites; there was always a black person there, albeit as the entertainment.
The proof is in the puddin’. Would the Kansas West Conference assign a white pastor to St. Mark’s?
_______________________________________________________
You are obsessed with racism Monk. You have the wrong ghetto. Getto street is named after the original owners who sub-divided the land it occupies. That area is also called Getto Addition.
Go to this link, type in the name Getto, clink on the “Getto Addition” and view the original plat. There are second and third additions but they are replats of the original. You will find the name of the owners to be, Lester and Teresa Getto, I believe. It’s hard to read because it’s the scan of an old 1886 document.
http://www.gis.sedgwick.gov/view/plats/SelSub-8-29.asp
GMC,
“But we have come a long way, thank God. And we still have a ways to go.
Accusing others of racism when there is no evidence of same, however, for the sake of political gain or just to justify one’s own persona bigotries does not advance the cause.”
I agree that the churches have come a long way since then, and still have a ways to go. I was directing those remarks to those here who are trying to deny their church’s part in the history of racism and those who deny that their church’s treatment of gay people is exactly the same thing.
Monk,
Wrong again. You should just quit before you make more of fool of yourself.
I’m surprised that some of the bloggers think that if a KKK person claims to be Christian, it must be so. Nowhere in the Gospels do I find it to be a Christian act to kill or demean someone because of his/her skin color.
Recently, there was a news story about a KKK web site inviting interested parties to attend a KKK initiation ceremony. A woman from Oklahoma (I may be remembering the state incorrectly) decided to go. About half way through the initiation “rite”, she changed her mind and asked for a ride back to town. She was shot to death on the way. I can think of no Christian organizations which would have handled that the same way.
The heading, “Cross Burning Shouldn’t Happen Anymore” kind of implies that at one time it should have. Hmm.
those who deny that their church’s treatment of gay people is exactly the same thing.
Jed, with respect, I understand your position, however, I must disagree.
This will not make me popular among the left here (now there’s a shock!), but it’s not the same thing.
Homosexuality is a sin under most Christian teachings, though different denominations may believe differently. The end of the 1st Chapter of Romans, among other places, makes that clear, so refusing to ordain an openly gay priest/minister would be in keeping with that teaching, in much the same way as a church would not ordain a minister openly keeping a mistress, for example. Both are sin.
I don’t say that out of any hate, understand (though I’m sure I will be roundly condemned by the usual suspects here). Indeed, I am chief among sinners, to quote Paul. All have sinned, and there is no heirarchy of sinners or sinners; all, including me, are equally condemned. Thankfully, we are saved by the grace of God upon acceptance of His free gift, not because we “earn” any place in heaven. Christ loves us despite our sins, and his crucifixion and resurrection makes possible our salvation through His paying the penalty of our sin for us.
Thus my statement. The Westboro nuts are just that; nuts. A true church is open to all, accepting all into the fellowship, even as we acknowledge and recognize we are all sinners. Were we to reject ‘certain’ sins as unworthy of the fellowship of Christ, we put ourselves in the position of the Scribes and Pharisees who were condemned with the words “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” There is indeed truth in the addage to “love the sinner even as one condemns the sin.” If church is reserved for the sinless, no one at all would be there; Christ regularly fellowshipped with the sinners, not the religious leaders. But positions of church leadership (one would hope) are limited to those who make every effort to live according to Christ’s precepts, not those who openly flout those teachings, even as we recognize that abiding in perfection is impossible.
There you go: let the piling on begin.
__• ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 7, 2009 at 12:03 pm | Permalink
Oh, but before I go, from Psychology today.
Homosexuality and pedophilia, the false link.
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/gay039s-anatomy/200809/homosexuality-and-pedophilia-the-false-link
_____________________________________________
Men work molest boys are not homosexuals. Is that where you get your facts? Phycholgy is only a psudo-science for this very reason.
What do you wanna bet Joe Kort is either a member or a paid consultant for NAMBLA?
should be “heirarchy of sins or sinners”
Duh. Must edit better.
GMC70, May I be one of the first to pile on beside you. SO BE IT.
““The Westboro Baptist Church is NOT a Baptist Church…”
And Coca-Cola is not a cola.”
And I’m a great King, says me, does that make me a great King?
What a moron.
“donndublin
Posted January 7, 2009 at 5:25 pm | Permalink
…Is that where you get your facts? Phycholgy is only a psudo-science for this very reason.”
do you have anything to dispute the message or is your only possible rebuttal to disparage the source?
janeeyre Posted January 7, 2009 at 4:47 pm
“I’m surprised that some of the bloggers think that if a KKK person claims to be Christian, it must be so.”
But but, the Monkey thinks that because Fred Phelps calls his church a Baptist church it has to be….of course the Baptist Church categorically denies that.
As I said….what a moron.
Jesus was crucified on a tree.
The cross holds no more reverence with God than does a swastika.
The KKK and kinheads are children who’s daddy never sufficiently kicked their ass.
Idiots.
kin should be skin.
And maybe their daddies beat their brains out one too many times.
Boxic,
Gee, I didn’t know we were on speaking terms- I thought we were on cussing each other out terms!—Jed
You didn’t see me cussing at you, but whatever you like, I’ll try and accommodate if possible.
See how easy I am to get along with?
I was attacked from my first post on Web log for mentioning I was a Christian and called a bigot. First they thought I was someone else and accused of hating gays. Little did they know that I have several gay friends as well my ex-wife’s brother was gay and we were good friends until he died of AIDES. None of them demand to married.
I believe gays should be allowed to have legal partners with the same rights married partners have. I’ve always believed that marriage is a religious institution and should be honored as such. Government didn’t invent marriage, God did.
Some on this blog are out for vengeance against all people of faith and this is one of their platforms.
And Coca-Cola is not a cola.”
Yeah man, but I heard at one time it was made with real cocaine!
donndublin
You were attacked here for being a Christian? No way! (just kidding).
It’s the anti-christian crowd. Not just against religion and super pro separation of church and state. This is outright ATTACK! ATTACK!! zone.
Interesting, how your subject went from being attacked for being Christian:
and an automatic association with gays. I mean, I didn’t see your post saying you were attacked for giving to the church, or going to church on Sunday.
You saw it as a gay issue.
What’s this tell us?
Donnie,
“I’ve always believed that marriage is a religious institution and should be honored as such.”
So, you dont believe gays can have a religious institution?? And, how the hell do you get to gay bashing on a cross-burning thread??
Oh yea, I forgot… same thing….
Donnie —- IF you believe marriage is a religious institution, then why do you not get your marriage license from a religious group?? Huh??? Tell us…. Marriage is a LEGAL contract between two consenting adults, who are un-related… And it SHOULD be legal for ALL….
donndublin
See?
I rest my case.
#
brian_nuevo
Posted January 7, 2009 at 5:43 pm | Permalink
“donndublin
Posted January 7, 2009 at 5:25 pm | Permalink
…Is that where you get your facts? Pshychology is only a pseudo-science for this very reason.”
do you have anything to dispute the message or is your only possible rebuttal to disparage the source?
______________________________
Brian, Let me rephrase it. Pshychology is a pseudo-science for this reasons like this.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20010701-000014.html
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1986675
Being a physics enthusiast, it’s been common knowledge that the art of Psychology is a sub-science.
It’s only an opinion I have about Joe Kort.
Donnie —
IF you believe marriage is a religious institution, then do you believe that all of the marriages performed by judges, and captains of cruise ships are not marriages??
Or are you just blowing smoke??
blowing smoke??
Someone got some smoke? Pass it around please.
Don’t be a bogart.
Personally I think its just odd to use a torture device as the cross was as a religious symbol.
Yeah I know the story and I know why..he suffered and died on the cross for our sins.
That in itself is just freaking sadistic if you ask me. But ya’ll can believe whatever you want to believe.
Jesus died the same way thousands if not millions died. That’s if he really lived.
“That’s if he really lived.”
You, missy, are an idiot. Your post is so wrong in so many ways it’s pathetic, and I’m not even Christian.
“Don’t be a bogart.”
Don’t bogart that joint, my friend, pass it over to me.
I think there is more going on at this house than being a “haven for those who need a second chance”. I just have the feeling that the “victims” are not telling the whole story..call me suspicious…but I think there is more to this incident than meets the eye.
“That in itself is just freaking sadistic if you ask me. But ya’ll can believe whatever you want to believe.”
I agree….if God was all powerful and could do all things..why couldn’t He save mankind from damnation without having to offer His only son as a human sacrifice?
The whole concept seems strange to me now that I’ve become an adult and I’m on the outside looking in.
#
Mary_Caruso
Posted January 7, 2009 at 7:44 pm | Permalink
I think there is more going on at this house than being a “haven for those who need a second chance”. I just have the feeling that the “victims” are not telling the whole story..call me suspicious…but I think there is more to this incident than meets the eye.
———————-
Probably right Mary…
The owner of the house stated he was a former user and was trying to convince others not to use and give them a break.
However, this means that active users and who knows what is being drawn to a focal point at this man’s home.
I would be bothered greatly not by the man’s charity, but by his shortsightedness in taking on he isn’t trained or prepared for.
There could be many problems brought into his neighborhood by his shortsightedness.
I agree. I think if the story doesn’t die out…we’re going to find that it’s not what it seems. Maybe someone who stayed at his house got mad at him. Maybe he wants attention. I just think the whole episode is a little strange.
At lunch today, we discussed another idea.
It may have been a neighbor with their knickers in a twist that their property values were dropped by having such a house in the neighborhood that perpetrated this.
Very likely I think.
Property over people. Sad.
I don’t know BJ..have you ever lived next door to a house where strange people are coming and going all hours of the day or night? It doesn’t make you feel very safe or secure in your own home. Neighbors do have a responsibility to each other..and while I don’t agree with someone burning a cross in anyone’s yard..I can see why this guy’s neighbors may be frustrated.
Agreed Mary,
I live right down the street from a public housing complex. There are some really hard core drug users and low lifes that come out there.
I’ve had people pound on my door at 2-4 a.m. in the morning like they were on fire. Only to find out they wanted to “borrow” ten dollars for gas, because they were from ’somewhere else’ and needed to get back home. Too bad for them I recognized them from seeing them on the street and knew they were druggies and con artists.
There are many people in this world that just don’t have good intentions, a lot of them right here in Wichita.
I don’t worry too much about what my neighbors have going on so long as they afford me the same.
Some years ago, a house nearby had about 30 illegals living in it. The mariachi music at all hours WAS a little annoying. But I was more bothered by the fact that the people were clearly here illegally than by anything that they did.
CLEARLY the guy does some good. Some people he has helped came back to help him.
I agree it is just as possible he may have done it himself for attention. Absent further information, there’s not much way to know.
I remember when I first got married, we lived across the street from people who partied 24/7. The house was always full of people, many quite unsavory looking. My husband was gone over 24 hours at a time with his job, leaving me alone a couple of times a week. I’d go stay with my parents because it made me so nervous to stay by myself with all that going on day and night. One day I came home and the house was gone..I mean literally gone. The city had condemned it, and within a 24 hour time frame, the people moved out and the house was torn down. I was relieved that I could finally stay at home when Dave was gone.
Interestingly enough, the same house the illegals lived in had previously been occupied by people who for some reason never threw anything and I mean ANYTHING away.
When they moved out the house was windows high in every room with every kind of garbage that there is.
None of the neighbors ever knew. So even if it IS odd, it didn’t really hurt anyone.
The strangest neighbor I ever had was a guy with obvious mental problems…his elderly mother died and no one knew for about 6 months. He was got so freaked out, he began climbing out his upstairs bedroom window in order to get out of the house without having to go downstairs, where she lay dead in her bedroom. People saw him coming and going from his bedroom window..but didn’t catch on that something weird was going on inside the house.
Mary,
Consider yourself lucky. I lived next door to a couple with a 13yr-old daughter who wasn’t in school and who was picked up every evening by a guy in a big hat, gold chains and a Caddie convertible who brought her home around 3am. I called everyone I could think of, all to no avail. Even the police were too afraid of this guy to do anything about it. Finally the owner of a neighboring business bought the house and evicted them, but that did nothing at all for the girl.
I bouhgt a house to flip once that was so filthy and infested with bugs you couldn’t believe it. The ceilings literally would turn black at night with cockroaches. They had 2 kids who were obviously very neglected and the mother even told us that she would spray the kids down at night with Raid to try and keep the bugs off of them. I turned them into SRS, but the social worker couldn’t have cared less. Her response to me was…”well, they’ve probably moved to a place with no bugs”. I have absolutely no faith in SRS.
“I agree….if God was all powerful and could do all things..why couldn’t He save mankind from damnation without having to offer His only son as a human sacrifice?”
————————–
I think that goes to Free Will and Original Sin.
The way I see it, Jesus came (God’s only Son), to save us from all that (damnation).
Jesus was explicate. One way to Heaven. Period.
That bugs some people because it means “good” people are sent to Hell. Good deeds get you nowhere. I didn’t write it, but that is what it sez. Jews are burning, Budhists, Muslims; the whole bunch. One way to the Father. Jesus didn’t equivocate on this one.
“Interestingly enough, the same house the illegals lived in had previously been occupied by people who for some reason never threw anything and I mean ANYTHING away.”
I was hired to clean up a place like that years ago. The trash was 2 or 3 feet high over 1000 sq feet. It was amazing. Diapers too. Stunk to high heaven.
Still doesn’t answer my question, Fleet.
You might do well to consider Mother Theresa’s advice..”If you think you’re gong to heaven..then you’re not humble enough to go”.
I don’t think any of you Bible thumpers get the consept of what Christianity really is. Just saying you do doesn’t make it so.
“One way to the Father. Jesus didn’t equivocate on this one.”
Sorry, but your interpetation of Jesus’s words are inaccurate.
I mean’t concept..not “consept”..just in case the spelling police are lurking about.
You asked:
“why couldn’t He save mankind from damnation without having to offer His only son as a human sacrifice?””
And I answered:
“I think that goes to Free Will and Original Sin.”
As I’ve said many times, I am not a “believer”, but I know the playbook.
God gave us the chance and Adam and Eve blew it (Original Sin) God gave them the chance and they disobeyed (free will).
Jesus said follow me and you will go to Heaven. If you don’t follow Me, you won’t.
Some say that is not fair, I am a good person. Too bad, not good enough. The 3:16 Christians say Jesus said it straight up. It’s “your” fault for not heeding the warning.
A Jesus Freak told me once, it’s like a train is coming and it is their job to give the fair warning. It’s a little like cosmo (faith and all), If you believe it with all your heart, you warn people.
“I don’t think any of you Bible thumpers get the consept of what Christianity really is. Just saying you do doesn’t make it so.”—Mary
Now wait a minute Mary, Monkeyhawk may have a real problem with what you just said.
He says that because Fred Phelps says his church is Baptist….that it has to be, not withstanding the Baptist Church saying emphatically otherwise.
God says we have free will… Knowing full well what the consequences will be… IF we accept that all knowing, all seeing thing… And then, knowing what will happen in advance, hands down eternal damnation to any who would DARE exercise the Divine Gift of Free Will… And that is a Gift??
It always bothered me as a kid that some tribal peoples in deepest darkest amazon jungle areas… who never even Knew about this God, or Garden, or Graveyard(Calvary)… would spend eternity in eternal damnation, just cause they didnt know anything about a Bible, that they couldnt even read??
And nobody to THIS DAY has been able to explain to me how some GOD of LOVE and MERCY and FORGIVENESS could condemn some tribal jungle peoples to eternal damnation, based on what they never even knew….
Other religions have their strangeness as well… Interesting world….
Baptists cant even agree what Baptists are… Thats possibly why there are so many different, and diverse groups who call themselves Baptists…
“Sorry, but your interpetation of Jesus’s words are inaccurate.”
There is not much to “interpret”. It’s clear as a bell.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
This one is pretty clear, don’t you think?
“Jesus answered, I am the way (highway) and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”-John 14″
No one?? Not some. Not maybe. Not equivacal.
“Boxlock20″ –
Specifically, which Baptist group said Westboro Baptist Church isn’t a baptist church?
The Northern Baptists or Southern Baptists?
Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?
Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?
Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?”
Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?
All other churches are heretics.
“..would spend eternity in eternal damnation, just cause they didnt know anything about a Bible, that they couldnt even read??”
They way I understand it, it they didn’t know, they wouldn’t burn. Which leads to the old joke, “Why did you tell me”?
“Jesus said follow me and you will go to Heaven. If you don’t follow Me, you won’t.”
Right..
If you live your life with the values that Jesus taught, and mirror his ways..then you may achieve heaven. Simply saying that Jesus is your savior isn’t enough..you have to internalize the values he taught. I don’t see many of the self proclaimed “Christians” on this blog as living examples of Jesus. Quite the opposite.
Jesus never condemned homosexuality, He never condoned war or killing…He was a peacemaker and He loved his enemys. He begged forgiveness for those who persecuted Him.
Is that what you do? Is that what the conservative fundamentalists do? I don’t see many examples of it.
Fleettwood, what is it to you?? After all, YOU claim all the time you are NOT a believer!! LOL
Monkey, your list is an extremely SHORT list on those Baptists… There are the Primitive Baptists… the Landmark Baptists… the General Baptists… the Freewill Baptists… the Missionary Baptists…. the American Baptists…. The American Baptists of the Westminster Confession… the New Testament, Fundamental, Bible believing Baptists… the Fire Baptized Holiness Baptists… the Seventh Day Baptists….
LONG list…. and they all seem to have some unique little quirk that makes them who they are, and for many, all the others are doomed to eternal damnation!!
What makes Westboro Baptist – Baptist???
Most likely because they say they are…
“Specifically, which Baptist group said Westboro Baptist Church isn’t a baptist church?”—Monkey
Monkey, I would bet, as a figure of speech, that everyone of them.
But I’m not your gopher, you look it up.
In fact, a challenge, you find one, just one that claims them, other than themselves of course.
Oooops — forgot one — Independent Baptists
I had a neighbor in Ohio who was Pastor of a very small Independent Baptist Church… I asked him what he thought of the Southern Baptists…. He told me that he guessed they could call themselves Baptists if they wanted, but that they really werent… LOL
“What makes Westboro Baptist – Baptist???
Most likely because they say they are…”—Chas
And that condemns all the legitimate Baptist Churches by association against their will?
You are truly ignorant…truly, truly willfully ignorant Chas.
I can see where you come up with your belief and statement though, I mean after all you say you are a preacher, and everyone knows your are not and are far far from one.
BAWKS — What is your problem??? What I said is almost identical to what YOU just said to Monkey….
“In fact, a challenge, you find one, just one that claims them, other than themselves of course.”
[Boxlock20]
“What makes Westboro Baptist – Baptist???
Most likely because they say they are…”—Chas
NOTE, Bawks… I didnt say anything at all about whether other Baptists recognized Westboro as Baptist… That correlation would be in YOUR mind…. Because you would hate like hell to agree with me… You stupid FOOL!!!
Oh yea, BAWKS…. you keep LYING and saying I am not a preacher —
Here’s YOUR challenge…. PROVE YOUR STATEMENT… RIGHT HERE ON THIS BLOG….
IF NOT, JUST SHUT UP ABOUT IT….
PUT UP, OR SHUT UP, YOU SAD EXCUSE FOR A PERSON….
“If you live your life with the values that Jesus taught, and mirror his ways..then you may achieve heaven. Simply saying that Jesus is your savior isn’t enough..”
You are wrong in the first statement. Living the “values” is not enough. Simply saying that Jesus is you Savior is not enough either. Most people believe both statements are correct. Those are the “burners”.
“After all, YOU claim all the time you are NOT a believer!!”
At least I know what Jesus meant. I just don’t buy it.
Well, Fleetie, since you say you arent a believer… I guess, in your terms, you are just a “burner”…
The way you rant and rave against those who dont share in the ways of the Fundamentalists, makes you one of the worst possible hypocrits!! LOL
You’re wrong, Fleet. I don’t think you have a clue what it means to be a real Christian.
Anyway..it’s all BS. Religion is what man creates because he can’t accept the fact that he’s mortal. It just part of being human…religion has existed since man walked upright, and it certainly existed before the advent of Christianity.
I loved the Christian religion, even though I walked away from it…and I cant stand what hateful, intolerant, and twisted minds have turned it into.
That’s it for me…off to bed.
Fleetie, if you dont “buy it” how do you think you know what the proper interpretation of the alleged words of Jesus are?? Do YOU know the intricasies of Johanine interpretation?? Do YOU have any sort of expertise in Koine Greek?? Do you have any knowledge of the alternate translations from John 14??
“The way you rant and rave against those who dont share in the ways of the Fundamentalists, makes you one of the worst possible hypocrits!! LOL”
That’s just silly. I’m not going to “burn”. I’ll just die and rot. I don’t rant or rave. I’m pretty solid in what I believe. I do know what the Bible sez. The Bible (New Testament) has the talk of burning. Not equivical. Make it right in your own mind if you want, but that is what it sez.
“Religion is what man creates because he can’t accept the fact that he’s mortal.”
I agree.
Hum, does that wild rant from Chas lead anyone to believe he is…ah, somewhat less than stable?
Sure does me, but it only confirms what many already know.
““Jesus answered, I am the way (highway) and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”-John 14?”
Pleased to be wondering if there is any other interpretation. NO ONE comes to the Father…
Make it right in your own mind.
I didn’t write it and I don’t buy it, but if I did believe it, this would be what I would buy.
It’s not wishy washy.
Well, Fleetie…. since you’re not a believer… then why do you constantly side with the Fundamentalists and their dubious interpretations?? If you really dont believe, then the fundamentalist rantings and ravings shouldnt be terribly important to you… should they??
I mean, what’s it to you whose interpretations are accurate, and whose arent??
Seems to me like your dog isnt in that hunt… LOL
“I mean, what’s it to you whose interpretations are accurate, and whose arent??”
If I was a believer, I’d be a “Jesus on my shoulder” type. i.e. Jesus is everything and every thing else (this earthly existance) is nothing.
I would be intolerable, but so what. It’s not about “this life”.
Chas –
A question, and I’m being serious.
Do you REALLY believe in ANYTHING?
It seems to me you simply mouth whatever is popular; whatever gets you in with your chosen allies. But I have yet to hear from you a fundamental core of what you really believe.
“Everyone who keeps on hearing these messages of mine and never puts them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.”
Sound familiar? Fundamental core beliefs are the rock upon which we build ourselves. Without them, when the whims of fashion, the twists and turns of fad and fancy blow this way and that, you are left with no foundation.
To put it another way, if you stand for nothing, you fall for anything.
So what do you stand for? You constantly claim to be a pastor, yet your words here reflect none of that. You spout obscenities routinely, lamely masquaraded to hide what they are (GEEZ, A$$HOLE, and the infamous STFU to name a few). Here in this thread, as a Christian minister, you seem to assert that in fact religious faith is simply whatever you want it to be, even as you attempt to hold yourself out as the last word on “proper” faith (check out your 9:49 post), and seem to struggle with the most basic of dillemas; this is not the thought of a trained theologian.
Fleet is at least honest; he acknowledges what Christ clearly said, even as he rejects same.
“Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.”
So – where do you STAND?
I’ll probably regret this post; I’ve avoided the endless doctrinal argument which rage here, and I have no intention in getting into them now. My earlier post says about all I’ll say on that subject.
But you’re a chameleon, Chas, or at least you try to be. What do you STAND for? What is your rock? What are your absolutes?
GMC — if that is serious, you have a very deep seated problem…. See, your problem is that I dont fit your nice neat little stereotype image of what Clergy are supposed to be…. THAT sir, is your problem, not mine….
I have stated on the Blog many times that I am NOT of a fundmentalist persuasion…. That should tell you a LOT about who/what I am… or am not….
I have also posted many times that I am of a Protestant Reformed faith…. That would be known as a progressive faith….
And whether you realize it or not, trained theologians’ mainstay is to ask questions…. to attempt “to make explicit what is implicit” to borrow a theological phrase….
What I raise in the 9:49 post is exactly that… Bring questions to the table…. Instead of just sweeping them under the theological carpet….
NOW, sir, your problem has to do with creating a stereotype in your mind what YOU think clergy are or are not…. I quite obviously, thank God, do not FIT your little box… And you are quite proper in not trying to engage in theological debate, since you arent trained to do so….
But… and here’s the important thing….
YOU nor anybody else here has a RIGHT to attack someone because they dont fit into the “libelous little box” that YOU… not my denomination, or my congregation…. has created….
I will NOT stay in your little box… since the box you want me in is of YOUR making… not mine… not my congregation… and certainly not my denomination….
Is that clear enough for you??? I cant draw you a picture, since I flunked Art 101.
Of course, you know my opinion of you GMC.
YOU deal in absolutes. It is your JOB to use the strict letter of the law as written by men and entrusted to you to advocate for judgment that deprives and punishes.
Chas has a bit more difficult a task. I think he faces it well compared with most of his fellows.
His task is to interpret the intents and words of the Earthly removed given down second hand in a two thousand year old book. HIS take is to approach it liberally, erring on the side of interpretation in the abstract and allegorical.
I get what you say upthread. Clubs have rules. That is why I do not belong to any clubs.
Or churches.
I’ve never been a “because somebody says so” guy.
I don’t see churches or the faithful looking to save people so much as looking to condemn them before the judgment.
Before you judge (prosecute) Chas GMC, I invite you to remember that your faith makes you a second hand. You do the will of God as determined by man. And by men that agree with you.
Whatever you think of his beliefs that you and he share and I do not GMC, Chas is on the front line. Afford him the attendant respect according to your own faith.
Bawks — your incessant ignorance posted here daily seems to prove that you know absolutely nothing about what you say….
Your willful hatred toward KFG is despicable, to say the least….
Your constant demeaning attitude to anybody who doesnt agree with you says a lot more about YOU than it says about those with whom you disagree….
Fleettwood says, in response to Mary:
Posted January 7, 2009 at 10:33 pm | Permalink
“Religion is what man creates because he can’t accept the fact that he’s mortal.”
I agree.
==========================================
Where is your attack against Mary, or Fleettwood for agreeing with Mary??
As you can see, I am far from the only poster here who doesnt agree with your very tiny, narrow minded box that you live in… But, I waste my energy…. Since your blinders are fixed tightly in place, and wont allow you to see, or appreciate any world views other than your own…
I think it best to just ignore your ignorance and willful hatred…. it isnt good for the blood pressure…. LOL
“Boxlock20″ –
Sometimes dealing with you is like asking NASA to discuss the green cheese problem on the moon.
It’s just not worth entertaining your arguments. You tried the Fallacy of Authority to declare Westboro Baptist Church is not a “baptist” church because the “Baptists” said so.” You posted that several times.
For starters, there is no such thing (as “Chas” and I have pointed out) as “the” Baptists.
According to the day’s time-stamps, you’ve spent more-or-less the next seven hours spewing arrogant ignorance and attempting other lame trolling tactics.
I mean, when you come out with a statement on the lines of (paraphrasing here; Why bother to look it up?) “The Westboro BAPTIST Church isn’t a ‘Baptist’ church because ‘the Baptists’ said so.”
Prima Facia, you reveal you know nothing about what you’re talking about.
You’re pretty gifted, “Boxlock20″ to hijack threads into inane tangents. I’ll give you that.
But you’re turning into a self-parody.
You’re WE Blog’s version of the Sham-Wow infomercial.
Not an attack, Chas. Just a question. Don’t take it personally, and get your panties in a wad. If I “attack” you, you’ll know it. I rarely do that, and only in response to an earlier assault.
I take it, from your answer, that your only absolute is that there are no absolutes. Labeling yourself (you seem to have a fascination with labels and putting folks in boxes) as “Protestant Reformed faith…. That would be known as a progressive faith….” is meaningless. It’s gibberish. It’s a label, signifying nothing, and saying nothing.
You say what you aren’t (fundamentalist – whatever you define that as) but you scrupulously avoid defining what you believe.
It can’t be that hard, can it? I just want to get a handle on where you stand, and where you come from. Because, as I said, you seem to be a chameleon.
And you are quite proper in not trying to engage in theological debate, since you arent trained to do so….
Theological debate isn’t reserved for those “trained,” Chas. It’s not something handed down from above, and it’s not rocket science. Fancy letters after your name don’t give you special dispensation in your field, anymore than mine give me special dispensation in mine. So step off your gilded horse, peel off your emperor’s clothes, and speak plainly.
And actually SAY something.
JR – it’s been clear for some time that I don’t give a rat’s ass what you think. Because generally you don’t think; you just react. Usually irrationally. And when I address you, I’ll speak in the small syllable words appropriate for you.
“It can’t be that hard, can it? I just want to get a handle on where you stand, and where you come from. Because, as I said, you seem to be a chameleon.”
Look, if you passed the LSAT, you have to be smart enough to understand that if somebody tells you they are Protestant Reformed.. Progressive.. then you should be able to figure out what that means….
Same goes with saying someone is NOT fundamentalist…. Those are fairly common descriptive terms in theological circles… and since you dont think you need training for that, why dont you toddle off to your Google and look it up….
Protestant, Reformed, Progressive…. Ummmm… those terms are FAR from being Chameleon…. Your slip is showing, GMC… and it doesnt look right, for a person in your rank to say they dont know what those things mean….
Now, let me know if you cant find those things in Google…. And if you dont even know an attack when you spew one out, I dont know what that says about your capability to handle your own profession, let alone ragging on me about MINE!!!
I’m NOT going to get into a doctrinal pi ssing contest with you… And, ummmm, if you really believe training isnt important to being a theologian…. Then lets see YOU go teach NT Greek in a school of theology…. or how about christology at Chicago Divinity??? Or, hey, how about you enter into some kind of serious discussion on soteriology without theological training… or even a session on the ontological arguments….
You think just anybody can handle such matters??? LOL…. Gee, maybe I should try my hand prosecuting your next murder case??? You think??? LOL Ooooops…. I better not mention that…. there is that missing boy matter in Butler County…. sorry bout that….
Interesting, Chas thinks all there is to the Christian faith is education. Evidently, he doesn’t heed the words of Jesus Christ.
Tell us again, “Regular,” Jesus Christ’s words about homosexuality.
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Monkeyhawk
Posted January 8, 2009 at 6:38 am | Permalink
Tell us again, “Regular,” Jesus Christ’s words about homosexuality.
———————————-
Nothing specific that I know of, but on forgiveness which is to be done by all. Perhaps the encounter with the woman accused of prostitution/adultery best fits the subject.
And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said, ‘No one, Lord.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again. John 8:1-11
So the woman at the well was a (to use the CONs’ most popular term on this forum) a “lezzie?”
Thanks for clearing that up, “Regular.”
Who says theology should be corrupted by that nasty thing known as “education?”
“Look, if you passed the LSAT, you have to be smart enough to understand that if somebody tells you they are Protestant Reformed.. Progressive.. then you should be able to figure out what that means….”—Chas
But Chas, you say you are a minister, but you don’t seem “able to figure out what that means”, and nobody else can figure out what that means either, because your actions and words don’t correspond with being one in any way.
Point taken MH, however the view of the forest from here is just fine because of the trees, not in spite of them. :)
It would seem that yes, I am smarter than a small time Butler county prosecutor.
“So the woman at the well was a (to use the CONs’ most popular term on this forum) a “lezzie?””—Monkey
The woman at the well was looking for forgiveness, and
“And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”
Not coming on to him, or the other women in Jesus’s presents, as the resident lessie has done.
The women at the well respected Jesus person-hood and divine authority, she did not mock it.
Just my thoughts, then again I’m not without sin either of course, but we are admonished to use scripture to correct our brothers and sisters.
New American Standard Bible
“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness”;—2 Timothy 3:16
“Boxlock20″ gives us –
“The woman at the well was looking for forgiveness, and
“And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”
Not coming on to him, or the other women in Jesus’s presents….”
Jesus gives presents? Like Santa Claus?
Hey, you may have a convert here, “Boxlock20!”
Tell me more about “Jesus’s presents!”
Like I’ve said Monkey, just because someone says they are something or another, or claims to be a part of a recognized group does not make it so.
Is well recognized that the Westboro Baptist church does not belong to ANY recognized, legitimate Baptist Church and they are simply hijacking the word and association falsely.
For you to deny that simple fact shows your utter ignorance, but that’s common here I guess.
“While its members identify themselves as Baptists, WBC is an independent church and is not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
Example:
“RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention
meeting in Indianapolis, Indiana, June 10-11, 2008, firmly and publicly
clarify that neither Fred Phelps nor Westboro Baptist Church are
members of or representatives of the Southern Baptist Convention, nor
do we recognize their methods of protest or as appropriate or biblical.”
http://thelowercase.blogspot.com/2008/05/fred-phelps-hating-homosexuals-and-sbc.html
Eat crow Monkey, you must like the taste!
Okay Monkey, ‘presence’ not ‘presents’.
See, that’s all you’ve got Monkey, picking at typos caused by speed and the lack of significance placed on the person I am primarily addressing.
Well I’ll be awaiting for some Jesus presents OR presence before I’ll let his followers tell me second hand how it is I’m supposed to live. The followers aint a good sell.
“Boxlock20″ –
All you’ve provided is the Southern Baptist Convention has said Phred Felps and his outfit are not “representatives of the Southern Baptist Convention.”
What about the Northern Baptists?
What about the Primitive Baptists?
You originally tried to claim the Westboro Baptist Church wasn’t, y’know, “Baptist.”
Now, I suppose you can try to make the case that the Southern Baptists are the only “true” Baptists. But you’ll be infringing on “Nathaniel’s” self-ordained mission to arbitrarily decide just who is and who isn’t a “real” Christian.
Work that out among yourselves.
“The followers aint a good sell.”—BJ
But they are far better than the heathens like BJ chooses to be.
“before I’ll let his followers tell me second hand how it is I’m supposed to live. “–BJ
You’re sure doing a miserable job telling yourself how to live, just look at and listen to yourself.
Thank you for reaffirming my post in your own words there bawks.
Chas –
Once again, you’ve given me a label. Yea, I can go look up theological positions ad infinitum. But it tells me next to nothing about YOU.
What I have learned about you is that you define yourself, and others around you, by the labels you attach to them, the boxes you push them in to. That’s sad. What a narrow, confining world yours must be.
I’d hoped for a real exchange, setting aside the silly labels and “alliances.” You appear to be afraid of one, and see an attempt to enter into a real exchange, to set aside the armor that we tend to put up, as an attack. That’s too bad.
And it’s your loss.
“All you’ve provided is the Southern Baptist Convention has said Phred Felps and his outfit are not “representatives of the Southern Baptist Convention.”
What about the Northern Baptists?
What about the Primitive Baptists?”—monkey
Monkey, now you are being incredibly childish.
You’ve lost the argument, very clearly, and are resorting to ridiculous requests for proof of statements of all Baptist Conventions which I’m sure do not even want to recognize Westboro.
You know you’ve lost this one big time, and that is why the lack of substance coming from you now.
Show me one, JUST ONE, ANY recognized Baptist Convention that will claim the Westboro Baptist Church as a member or shut up….you are being even more foolish that usual.
“…congregation led by Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas is a fringe hate group obsessed with homosexuality. (It is not affiliated with any official Baptist convention.) It numbers only several dozen followers…”
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/10/31/what_can_we_learn_from_a_church_of_hate/
Ya eating crow for breakfast Monkey? Uck!
BTW Chas, by citing, as if it ‘hurts,’ the missing boy case here you display only how little you understand.
But please, come ahead. Come on over and “fix” it.
Phelps and his Westboro Baptist congregation has so defiled and tainted the “baptist” title that many independent baptist churches are changing their names and dropping the title.
To bad that loser has that kind of power. Ideas and impressions are powerful.
“Do you REALLY believe in ANYTHING?
It seems to me you simply mouth whatever is popular; whatever gets you in with your chosen allies. But I have yet to hear from you a fundamental core of what you really believe. ”
THAT’S GMC
“Chas -
Once again, you’ve given me a label.”
That too.
You weren’t seeking discussion council. You were cross examining with the verdict never in doubt.
Is there a chimp that can translate what Junior wrote at 8:32?
Try and keep up James.
I called GMC a sanctimonious hypocrite. Actually, he announced it and I underlined it.
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BlueJay
Posted January 8, 2009 at 8:41 am | Permalink
Try and keep up James.
I called GMC a sanctimonious hypocrite. Actually, he announced it and I underlined it.
———————
ROFLMAO!
announced it and underlined it!!! LMAO
Talk about mixing metaphors! LOL!
Wow I would think there would be agreemnet on this topic…guess not. Sometime I wonder if some fight for fightings sake.
“Boxlock20″ –
Last I looked, Phred Felps claims to be “Primitive Baptist.”
Now you’ve doctored the statement from one of the alleged Southern Baptist conventions to retro-fit your original claim the Westboro Baptist Church isn’t, y’know, “Baptist.”
You might say I’ve “taken you to school.”
#
BlueJay
Posted January 7, 2009 at 8:31 pm | Permalink
Interestingly enough, the same house the illegals lived in had previously been occupied by people who for some reason never threw anything and I mean ANYTHING away.
When they moved out the house was windows high in every room with every kind of garbage that there is.
None of the neighbors ever knew. So even if it IS odd, it didn’t really hurt anyone.
_________________________________
With all that trash, it must have attracted roaches, rats, mice and who knows what other kind of vermin.
No wonder you talk trash.
“Last I looked, Phred Felps claims to be “Primitive Baptist.”—Monkey
You must love throwing yourself under the bus Monkey.
Yeah, Phelps ‘CLAIMS’ (he and his church alone) to be Primitive Baptist, no one else agrees.
Monkey, you could claim to be a ‘Monkey’, but that wouldn’t make you one of course, just dumber than one, which you seem determined to prove here.
“Mr. Phelps’ so-called church is not affiliated with any legitimate denomination. It is housed in the basement of his home, and its membership consists mostly of members of his own family…
Phelps claims that his church is a Primitive Baptist Church. But Pastor WC Mintz of Little River Primitive Baptist Church, of Little River, SC, said, “That’s certainly not an orderly Primitive Baptist. I’ve never met a Primitive Baptist that would say something like that.”
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:rVhUPGGi7sAJ:www.allamericandouchebag.com/%3Fp%3D111+Do+Primitive+Baptist+claim+Westboro+Baptist+church&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us
“While its members identify themselves as Baptists, the church is an independent church not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations, nor does any Baptist institution recognize the church as a Bible-believing fellowship. The church describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles, though mainstream Primitive Baptists condemn Westboro Baptist Church and Phelps. Its first public service was held on the afternoon of Sunday, 27 November 1955.”
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:5b_grFOz3McJ:fredphelps.com/%3Fpage_id%3D4+Do+Primitive+Baptist+claim+Westboro+Baptist+church&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us
Monkey, why are subjecting me to suffering your completely asinine ignorance?