Given his fierce opposition to the financial services bailout, it was no surprise that Rep. Todd Tiahrt, R-Goddard, also voted against the Detroit bailout, which nevertheless passed the House on a vote of 237-170. In a statement, Tiahrt criticized the Big Three bailout as “more government involvement instead of incentives for private-sector solutions.” He also strongly opposed “the job-killing provision contained in this bill that would ban these automakers from leasing or owning business jets. . . . Banning our automakers from leasing or owning jets makes as much sense as asking them to stop using BlackBerries and laptops – tools that have made us the most efficient and productive work force in the world. This provision is a symbolic slap in the face to more than 1,200,000 workers spread across every state whose jobs depend on general aviation.”
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66 Comments
Standing up against giving away taxpayer money during the bank bailout discussion was the first time Tihart took a stand for the working man.
As always Tiahrt proves he’s an idiot. The automakers aren’t asking for a bailout, they are asking for a loan. Chrysler asked for a loan many years ago, received it, and paid it back with interest.
Perhaps Tiahrt just doesn’t care about jobs in Kansas. Not only are there hundreds of auto related jobs in Wichita but there is an auto plant in Kansas City which provides jobs for Kansans. Typical Republican, always willing to see unemployment rise for no particular reason.
Well, it’ll be the “working man” left out in the cold if the companies aren’t bailed out. Millions will lose their jobs if the automakers go under and it makes sense that the there needs to be strict oversight to make sure the money is used for the purpose it was intended. The bank bailouts have been a good example of how the greed and incompetance will continue unless someone holds the CEOs accountable for the way they spend this money.
If the Auto makers want to do good, they can. They can model their cars after the successful Opel, Ford lines they own in Europe.
The days of making giant SUV’s for four to ten mile trips to the office are over.
The days of foot dragging on alternative fuels cars are over.
The days of having three union workers doing one job when it only takes on worker are over.
Having dealerships every half mile in large cities are over.
Giving huge rewards to executives for profit loss are over.
The days of shrugging off failed designs and keeping them alive for decades are over.
It’s time to get it right the first time.
Actually union auto workers have a higher rate of productivity than non-union workers.
http://thegspot.typepad.com/blog/2008/06/by-kathy-g-1.html
But Republicans never let the facts get in the way of union busting in their crusade for lower wages.
IT WAS NOT THE CEOs THAT STOPPED THIS DEAL FROM POSSIBLY GOING FORWARD. The union killed it by greedily not making any concessions themselves. The “working man” in these auto companies are grossely over paid, espcially in comparison with others of us “working men and women” out here in the cold hard marketplace. Ask yourselvf this: “What other union gets paid full wages when they’re on strike?”!!! Thank goodness the bailout was defeated by Rep. Tiahrt and other wise legislators. We’ll pay less in damage to our economy this way than giving money to support their excessive lifestyles by a bailout. It will be painful but it is foolish to let people do whatever they want and then rescue them from the consequences of their stupidity.
“Banning our automakers from leasing or owning jets makes as much sense as asking them to stop using BlackBerries and laptops – tools that have made us the most efficient and productive work force in the world.”
Uh, yeah, Toad?
MOST people don’t have blackberries. Only a few have laptops.
Pretty much everyone gets by without a corporate jet.
But we DO, most of us, need cars there Toad. Thanks for getting it wrong, again. Consistency is SO important. Thank you for ALWAYS being a tool for the rich.
“Thank goodness the bailout was defeated by Rep. Tiahrt and other wise legislators.” — OKbyme
———
The loan to auto makers was stopped in the Senate. Tiahrt is in the House where it passed. His vote didn’t do anything and his votes will be further marginalized after the first of the year.
Bet if it was Todd’s job, he’d be begging for a bailout. But then he gets to vote himself a raise whenever the wind blows.
Todd had no problem supporting the bailout of the airline industry. Airlines got billions and laid off thousands. CEOs jobs were protected and they got their bonuses.
Todd looked at how poorly the bill was written and said ‘no’. That was a good thing. Make the big 3 come up with a viable business model. Force the union to step back and let go of the most outrageous of their demands.
The ‘man on the street’ shouldn’t be financing the big unions. The senate will force things to be done the right way even if Reid doesn’t want it that way. If after the first of the year the dems want to revisit this they will certainly have the votes. But then they will also take the responsibility of their actions.
Thanks Todd for thinking of the working man.
Todd just doesn’t know how to work across the aisle.
He won’t have a clue when he and ks. gets payback.
Devaluing labor is not the way to go. If the unionized labor in this country (be it auto workers or aircraft workers or whomever) are made to work for less money and fewer or diminished benefits, so will everyone else. Labor devaluation trickles down to all employment and to all sectors of the economy. If unionized workers are paid less, then employers in the hospitality industry and every other employment sector have less compensitory competition and are less motivated to give employees competitive wage/benefit packages. When we all have less disposable income, we buy less. That results in fewer jobs. Devaluation of labor is a downward spiral. The first cost cutting attack employers are likely to make in devaluing labor are cuts in health benefits. That’s the big ticket item in any company’s benefit package. Then, even more Americans will not be able to access adequate medical services. Trust me. We do not want to lower the wage/benefit ceiling in our nation.
The senate will force things to be done the right way even if Reid doesn’t want it that way.
…from Oko’s Comedy Hour.
War what you see as devaluing the work force I see as good common sense. No man is worth a salary if he volunteers to leave his job via a strike.
If a companies business in slumping he has to have the ability to cut expenses via a layoff to cut cost for a short time. This saves jobs not looses them. He has to have the ability to expect each employee be cross trained to help out somewhere else if he is needed instead of sitting out his eight hours because he can’t touch the other position.
Unions served their purpose years ago. They don’t contribute to the success of a company any longer. When we have UAW workers making more than many who spent lots of time and money to get a college education to give them the tools to get a good job then we have to look at the balance. Something is off somewhere.
I think there is a solution here. It isn’t slashing jobs but it will involve the UAW sitting down and coming to an agreement with the big 3.
Laugh as you will Pred but this is what is needed. A voice of reason. A belief in accountability. Concessions by those who hope to profit and not by the general public.
Real life. Take a dose.
Gettlefinger just referenced two statements made by toyota that with their worker bonus, their workers make 30 bucks per hour vs. big 3 of 27 p.h.
Guess we should demand parity, either give detroit workers a raise, or cut wages at Toyota!
Also read a repub memo urging an assault against the union workers by party members, memo stated that this was the dems first attempt to pay back organized labor for their political support, and repubs should unite to kill the deal.
It’s all political.
It’s my understanding that many aero suppliers have been attempting to smooth out their cyclical bus. by also producing for auto manuf., so I would expect some indirect impact from bankruptcy even here in Wichita.
Thank your repub obstructionist.
The UAW has been the standard bearer for organized labor, so of course repubs want to drive a stake in their heart.
The idiots are shooting themselve in the foot again, just like the did in the 110th congress by trying to make the dems look like a do nothing congress by obstructing everything.
Even with the half assed bush job of disbursing the funds, I still believe that the financial situation would be worse having done nothing as our repub reps proposed.
“War what you see as devaluing the work force I see as good common sense. No man is worth a salary if he volunteers to leave his job via a strike.”
Oh the nuggets of wisdom that do drop from the lips of a woman who makes her living exploiting prison labor!
BlueJay
Posted December 12, 2008 at 9:46 am | Permalink
Did ya ever notice?
The people who are against unions and worker rights are the SAME folks who are little flunkies and toadies?
——————
This comment from the biggest flunky on the blog.
Oh the nuggets of wisdom that do drop from the lips of a woman who makes her living exploiting prison labor!
Take a good look at Detroit your future may be
similar.
http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=17693
Nov. 4, 2008 — The aircraft leasing unit of General Electric signed a contract on Nov. 4 with The Commercial Aircraft Corp.of China (CACC), for five regional jets with an option to buy 20 more, the two companies said.
The contract, signed on the sidelines of Airshow China in the southern Chinese city of Zhuhai, makes GE Commercial Aviation Services the first global lessor to add Chinese-made ARJ21 jets to its fleet, they said.
“We have firm orders for five ARJs with options to add more to our fleet in the future,” Norman Liu, executive vice president of GE Commercial Aviation Services said. “The ARJ 21 will help fulfill the growing need within China for fast, efficient regional air travel,” he said.
Annie in the global market – if we can’t be competitive we will lose the market. Plain and simple. Not sure if this is your point but it is an obvious conclusion when you hear something like this.
Why do you think they went to China to buy their jets?
okie – I’m all for being competitive in the market but you seem to put all the burden on labor and not management to make the sacrifices.
Why is it okay for one CEO to make multi million dollar salaries and bonuses when the company lays off hundreds of workers? How is one tight-fisted scrooge going to help our economy when hundreds of workers with families are no longer able to buy their houses, cars, trucks, food, etc.
And where do you think these hundreds of workers are going to find work when many other companies are laying off hundreds of their workers in order to give their one CEO his/her multi million dollar salaries and bonuses?
If our country is to remain a super power, then we ALL have to be able to survive in this economy. Seems to me you only want the CEO’s to be standing when the dust settles.
okobserver,
Why do you think they went to China to buy their jets?
That’s easy they are after the engine sales on the jets. I’ll bet you a dollar the Chinese reverse engineer the engines and manufacture those themselves.
My poorly presented point is, Do you think Chinese aviation built these planes without assistance from their government? Do you think the Japanese and Korean manufactures do anything without their governments backing?
Right now worldwide there probably is capacity to produce 20 million cars yearly. The market may only support sales of 10 million units for several years to come. Foreign governments do everything that they can for their manufacturers. Employment gives the people something to do.
Guess gm is going to help out with that by cutting their production by 250,000 units and idling their plants in the first quarter.
Is America a Great Country or What?
There is an incremental cost to govts for providing subsidies for their industries, but then they figure that’s much preferable to bearing the full cost.
They are buying the jets from china so the can be the primary supplier of the engines for their jets. China demands and receives reciprocity for the govt. to do deals with businesses.
America needs to face up to the fact that our businesses are in competition with countries not other businesses. Until we do, we will continue to be on the losing end.
“Banning our automakers from leasing or owning jets makes as much sense as asking them to stop using BlackBerries and laptops – tools that have made us the most efficient and productive work force in the world. This provision is a symbolic slap in the face to more than 1,200,000 workers spread across every state whose jobs depend on general aviation.”
For once I actually agree with Tiahrt.
Including a ban on leasing or owning jets as part of any stimulus package is dumb on so many levels, and is targeted only at appeasing uneducated, reactionary constituents.
Vote No on any further company-specific bailouts (and reverse the earlier ones if possible.
Get over the anger about executives of troubled companies using private jets to travel – it is the most efficient way for them to do business in many cases.
” tools that have made us the most efficient and productive work force in the world.”
Obviously those tools in the hands of the GM executives have NOT odne that.
“Phantom
Posted December 12, 2008 at 12:08 pm | Permalink
They are buying the jets from china so the can be the primary supplier of the engines for their jets. China demands and receives reciprocity for the govt. to do deals with businesses.”
Huh?
The private jet is a penis substitute for business executives.
The private jet ruckus is just a cheap shot made by politicians. Now, if they were going to acquire more jets or new jets after receiving the funds, that would be relevant.
What will probably happen is they will not receive what the jets were worth, and their balance sheet (though, mimimally) will be in worse shape than it was before the sale.
So why can’t detroit compete with Toyota? This may be a big part of the explanation.
“Chrysler co-President Jim Press is stirring things up at his former employer, Toyota Motor Corp., by saying development of the Prius hybrid was subsidized by the Japanese government.
In a BusinessWeek story published Thursday, March 24, Press said that when he was at Toyota, “The Japanese government paid for 100 percent of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius.”
“Phantom
Posted December 12, 2008 at 1:20 pm | Permalink
…In a BusinessWeek story published Thursday, March 24, Press said that when he was at Toyota, “The Japanese government paid for 100 percent of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius.”
So the Japanese government subsidised research and development (R&D) for at least 1 Japanese car company?
How did they do it, via some sort of R&D tax credit…
perhaps like the R&D tax credit we have here in the USA that car companies like Chrysler could take advantage of?
[BTW, on March 17, Jim Press told the US House Energy Committee that Toyota did not receive any R&D funding for the Prius from the Japanses government. Toyota and Chrysler both subsequently said Press was wrong when he said it was subsidized.]
Here’s one viewpoint
http://www.autoyensubsidy.org/
The Impact of a Misaligned Yen
on U.S. Automakers
U.S. automakers welcome competition from Japanese companies and other international competitors. We believe that competition in a free and fair environment is good for consumers, good for innovation, and good for creating ever safer and more fuel-efficient cars. However, the U.S. government continues to passively accept subsidized imported vehicles from Japanese automakers who are not competing fairly because their government effectively subsidizes its auto industry through the use of an artificially low yen. This policy has led to the skyrocketing levels of auto exports to the U.S. that harm the economy and cost American jobs by giving Japanese automakers an unfair and unearned advantage over American automakers.
The artificially low yen has helped fuel our trade deficit with Japan, which hurts the U.S. economy and gives Japanese automakers an unfair advantage over American automakers. Nearly two-thirds of that deficit, or $56 billion out of a total $88 billion, is exclusively a result of Japanese auto products.
Looks like chrysler clarified his statement:
‘”In a recent interview, he referenced the close cooperation between the Japanese government and Japanese industry. He said the Japanese government strongly supported r&d investment in battery development, and the Prius and other Japanese models benefited from that investment in industry.
“He cited this as an example of cooperation between government and industry working together on public policy issues. He went on to say that he would like to see similar cooperation in the United States in order to find technological improvements that help give U.S. companies a competitive advantage.”
“The artificially low yen has helped fuel our trade deficit with Japan, which hurts the U.S. economy and gives Japanese automakers an unfair advantage over American automakers. Nearly two-thirds of that deficit, or $56 billion out of a total $88 billion, is exclusively a result of Japanese auto products.”
That may (or may not) be true. However, equally true is that the artificially low US dollar has done the same for US trading partners.
Is the referenced website implying that a government like Japan should alter its fiscal policy to maintain a balance of trade with one other country in one industry? That seems ridiculous.
“an example of cooperation between government and industry working together on public policy issues”
The US already does that in many many ways.
Here is just one quick example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNGV
Sounds like a good strategy Brian from the link above also look at yen carry trade.
A few facts:
* With a yen valued at 118 to the dollar, Japanese automakers enjoy an average windfall $4,000 cost advantage per vehicle more than they would if the yen traded at its true value. The overall subsidy Japanese automakers gain for the 2.2 million vehicles they import totaled $8.8 billion in 2006.
* The total yen subsidy provided to Japanese automakers in 2006 was $13.4 billion – $8.8 billion for car & truck exports to the U.S. and $ 4.6 billion for imported parts used in American-made Japanese cars.
* More than half (52%) of all automobiles manufactured in Japan were designated for export in 2006, exceeding 50% for the first time in 19 years. In fact, even as demand within Japan for new autos is declining, Japanese companies are adding production capacity to Japan-based facilities, reactivating assembly lines, adding workers and postponing planned factory closures as they move to export ever greater numbers of vehicles.
annie – since companies like Honda pay their workers in US dollars I don’t understand just how that yen advantage works.
Ben,
I will make an assumption since I have never worked in a Japanese auto plant. They are essentially screw driver assembly plants the bulk of the parts originate overseas. They are assembled here. Which generated the argument what is made in America?
Sounds like Ford to me – most of their autos are made overseas.
The PNGV was discontinued in 2001, and the effort was moved over to Freedom Car, which received 20 mil. in govt funding (don’t universities get bigger grants than that?) in a cost sharing agreement for 38 mil. total. Doesn’t sound like very much commitment to me.
Are you saying the U.S. manipulates the currency market to try and peg the dollar?
Hey Tanker. If the big three do not get the loan. As you voted not to get. And the go under. Why would they want to buy or lease any jets. And when was the last time you rode on a private jet?
“Phantom
Posted December 12, 2008 at 3:16 pm | Permalink
Are you saying the U.S. manipulates the currency market to try and peg the dollar?”
No, but I am saying the US Fed Res Board kept the interest rate too low for too long, which did lead to an undervaluation of the US Dollar as compared to other major currencies.
I am not implying this was done in a direct, conscious effort to ‘devalue’ the dollar, but it was definitely a direct result.
“the job-killing provision contained in this bill that would ban these automakers from leasing or owning business jets. . .
——————-
That is just more anti-capitalist liberal crap. They get to rub the car execs nose in it a little and, as a bonus, help eliminate those carbon spewing business jets.
Oh, we make those here?
That is just more anti-capitalist liberal crap. They get to rub the car execs nose in it a little and, as a bonus, help eliminate those carbon spewing business jets.
——-
Boortz was big on that one guess he’s a liberal now
“…help eliminate those carbon spewing business jets.”
As you well know, outlander, that is part of that crowd’s agenda. It has less to do with “climate change” and more to do with socialism.
I ran across the American-made parts percentages the other day. About 70 percent for u.s. made Jap cars; 80 percent for u.s. made cars. And the exchange rate for Yen is 97 to the dollar, but the dollar is tanking again. All this is from memory and could be wildly wrong.
“About 70 percent for u.s. made Jap cars; 80 percent for u.s. made cars.”
A question on the “us made cars” part – is that for cars or for ‘cars and trucks’? I have found that ‘us made’ automobiles (not trucks) are as much foreign % as ‘foreign’ cars.
A lot of parts for Japanese auto assembly plants in America are built by the same suppliers dependent on the “Big” Three of Detroit.
Brake pads, alternator belts, rubber window weather stripping (try saying that three times quickly)… And Senators McConnell and Corker et al, should probably be left to their own devices so we can rub their noses in their partisan s#it when the whole network of jobs surrounding the automobile industry goes to hell.
But we’ll be too busy in soup lines by then.
This isn’t a bail-out of the automobile industry per se, it’s an attempt to salvage long-neglected heavy industry in America.
The world’s largest manufacturer of railroad locomotives is… wait for it… General Motors.
Restoring railroads, getting up to par with France and Japan with bullet trains and mass transit is going to take some time and will need a period of transition.
$1.50 gasoline may be back for a while. But $4.50 gasoline sure appealed to the sheiks in Saudi and the suits at Exxon. It’ll be back.
Even my cat gets tired of bobbing feathers after a while. The CONs who contribute to this forum aren’t quite that perceptive.
Look:
1.) There is a finite supply of carbon-based fuels on this spaceship we call “Earth.”
B.) There are about a jillion things chemists can do with coal and petroleum without burning it into the atmosphere.
III.) Before there were pollution controls, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania was a coal-encrusted cancer pit and the skies above Los Angeles were orange.
4.) Alternative energy technology is an economic growth opportunity unprecedented since Spindletop.
E.) A local economy such as Wichita’s — dependent upon faddish luxury baubles such as Learjets and Citations — is the equivalent of basing the economy on… Beanie Babies or Cabbage Patch dolls.
VI.) Geography gives Kansas an almost constant and unlimited supply of wind.
7.) History has made the people in this particular corner of the planet pretty good at crafting lightweight materials into propeller-like devices.
H.) The concrete, machines, money and manpower poured to rebuild Kellogg Avenue would have built about a thousand miles worth of cross-country Super-Train track and supporting facilities. The “Big Dig” in Boston would have at least tripled that total.
IX.) Those jobs couldn’t be exported to Cambodia and 8-year-old girls chained to a workbench.
10.) In 50 years, “Learjet” is going to be an answer in “Trivial Pursuit.” Along with “Exxon,” “Saudi Arabia,” and “George WMD Bush.”
Most people will miss that last one.
I was trying to find the relevant % for domestic and foreign but didn’t.
Trying to find number of cars imported into USA not having much luck must be classified info
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/12/10/regional_split_at_root_of_auto_vote/
snip
Shelby’s position is not merely that of a fiscal conservative. His home state has provided millions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies to lure Honda, Hyundai, and Mercedes-Benz to build huge plants there. Indeed, some critics believe that without the incentives from Alabama – and similar tax breaks given by a number of other states to a dozen foreign automakers – the Detroit companies would not need a federal bailout.
The foreign-based automakers have received relatively little attention during the debate over the auto bailout bill because they have not asked for money from Congress. Yet their role is immense: In 2007, for the first time, foreign firms produced a majority of cars sold in the United States. While Detroit’s auto industry is shutting plants and slashing union jobs, the foreign-based auto companies have been booming, particularly in the South, with new nonunion plants slated to open in Tennessee and Georgia.
House Financial Services Committee chairman Barney Frank of Massachusetts, who is playing a key role in hammering out a loan deal, said in an interview that some opponents are “completely hypocritical” because they back local tax incentives to lure foreign companies that now pose some of Detroit’s stiffest competition. Frank also denounced those members of Congress who oppose the assistance for the Detroit automakers as a matter of fiscal prudence at the same time they fight for agricultural subsidies for their states.
Shelby represents the views of many members of Congress who say they oppose a taxpayer bailout and plan to join him in trying to defeat the measure. In an interview yesterday, he defended his support for tax breaks for foreign auto companies, which he praised for offering cars that the public wants. “They know what they are doing running efficient plants,” said Shelby, the top Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, which held hearings on the bailout last week.
A pretty thoughtful post there Monkeyhawk. A couple of comments.
Mass transit is not economically feasible out in the wide open spaces.
I agree that we need to explore alternative energy, but I’m not sure we have the willpower. OPEC et al are going to whipsaw us to avoid alternate energy getting off the ground. What is supportable at $4.00 a gallon is not at $1.50. Someone, I think it was Charles Krauthammer of all people, suggested a set price for gasoline or, say $4.00. The less the wholesale price the higher the tax proceeds. But regardless, the price stays at $4.00. In this way, alternative energy could be an economically viable alternative.
I could not support that idea as I understand it because it eliminates the free market and it would seem to require some form of nationalization. I also don’t know how the wholesale market would work. But it is another possible solution that is out there.
“I agree that we need to explore alternative energy…”
I agree. Any thinking person would. It will come when it comes. It always does.
“outlander” comes around with –
“A pretty thoughtful post there Monkeyhawk.”
Yup.
As are all my comments.
Oh, and as for yours –
“Mass transit is not economically feasible out in the wide open spaces.”
Hmm.
Seemed to work in the 50s, and the 40s, and the 30s, and the 20s, and the teens, and the oughts….
More than a hundred years of it working I guess isn’t enough to prove the economy of rail transit.
We simply got out of the habit.
Get off a train an hail a cab.
Do all your business calls locally and get back on the next train to get to the next town; even in the “wide-open spaces.”
Hell, in the “wide-open spaces” supertrains would whiz by and get trans-coastal travelers from Times Square to the Hollywood Strip within six hours of taking the Red Eye.
(Have you ever tried to drive on The 405? Or from LaGuardia to NYC’s midtown?)
Logistically, a coast-to-coast (with spurs to smaller towns) rail system is far less complex than air traffic control.
Most certainly there are some specialized advantages of air travel. But they’ve been neutralized by making airlines the only long distance transit system we have in America.
So instead of Aunt Harriet getting on the train in Newton and getting off in Muncie, she has to clog hub airports for a day and a half.
“outlander” continues his praise for me –
“I agree that we need to explore alternative energy, but I’m not sure we have the willpower.”
So Americans are too weak?
Why do you hate Americans?
“OPEC et al are going to whipsaw us to avoid alternate energy getting off the ground. What is supportable at $4.00 a gallon is not at $1.50. Someone, I think it was Charles Krauthammer of all people, suggested a set price for gasoline or, say $4.00. The less the wholesale price the higher the tax proceeds. But regardless, the price stays at $4.00. In this way, alternative energy could be an economically viable alternative.”
It’s not only the “economically viable alternative,” it’s the only alternative we’ve got.
Maybe we just have to wait for the Camero and Torino generation to die off so the fetish for the individual motor car is returns to its role as a means of personal transportation instead of a social statement.
“I could not support that idea as I understand it because it eliminates the free market and it would seem to require some form of nationalization. “
So even though you admit, “outlander,” an emphasis on mass transit is a better idea, your only objection is philosophical?
Yeah, that’s a lot easier than, y’know, changing your mind; than realizing it’s a much better use of energy and transportation resources.
We’re walking across a desert with 5 gallons of water but “outlander” is “really, really, thirsty!” so let’s let him bathe in it! Yeah, that’s the ticket. As long as “outlander” isn’t thirsty, everything will be fine!
Y’know, I perfectly understand your perspective. In your narcissistic haze, all that matters is what matters to you.
“I also don’t know how the wholesale market would work.”
And I’m not sure the wholesale market is all that important in the grand scheme of things; especially when CONservative worship of market forces has been so polluted, distorted, and mutated into nothing coming close to real capitalism.
Or real CIVILIZATION.
As soon as people decided to stop living in caves or as tribes and move into town and work toward all of us being in this together, the CONservative/Libertarian ideal was reduced to ashes. Our only chance for survival is realizing “socialist” sewer systems, “socialist” fire departments, “socialist” agreements to drive on the right side of the road… is the only way we’ll survive.
As you told us all, “outlander” –
“…it is another possible solution that is out there.”
Uh-huh.
And what is the CONservative “solution?”
And how has that worked out?
“fleettwood
Posted December 12, 2008 at 4:29 pm | Permalink
“I agree that we need to explore alternative energy…”
I agree. Any thinking person would. It will come when it comes. It always does.”
and the person or company that brings it will become a rich m.f’r
I apologize for calling your post “thoughtful” Monkey. As you demonstrated aptly in your response, you are nothing more than a blind partisan living in a dream world.
Again, my bad.
Seemed to work in the 50s, and the 40s, and the 30s, and the 20s, and the teens, and the oughts.- Monkeyhawk
—————–
Who wants to go back to a mass transit society? It was called “progress” when we advanced past that. Now, you socialist nitwits want to turn the clock back to the good old days. Maybe we could also get rid of these damn computers.
I think I have a term for your thinking. I shall call it “Selective idiocy”.
I think there should be an oil tax, use the money to develop/fund alternative energy. They should do it soon before people become too accustomed to the prevailing rate.
That would provide some degree of price stabilization.
Shelby is protecting his areas’ interest.