“If terror groups are to be defeated, it is national governments that will have to do so,” columnist Bill Kristol wrote about the attacks in Mumbai, India. “In nations like India (and the United States), governments will have to call on the patriotism of citizens to fight the terrorists. In a nation like Pakistan, the government will have to be persuaded to deal with those in their midst who are complicit. This can happen if those nations’ citizens decide they don’t want their own country to be dishonored by allegiances with terror groups. Otherwise, other nations may have to act.”
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48 Comments
Is that the same Bill Kristol who figured attacking Iraq was the best response to the 9-11 attack by Saudis? Kristol is constantly wrong, why should anyone pay attention to that blowhard?
I think these countries are just trying to survive, they really don’t give a rip about America’s national security issues. The same for their citizens.
“governments will have to call on the patriotism of citizens to fight the terrorists.”
I don’t see “scary terrorists” as a threat to me or mine. Not my fight. Must be my old con origins kicking in. If it does not concern me, I don’t give it much thought.
And let’s not forget that terrorism is a tactic.
It’s like focusing our entire defense on a, say, War on Tanks.
Down with trench fighting! Down with trench fighting!
“This can happen if those nations’ citizens decide they don’t want their own country to be dishonored by allegiances with terror groups”
So using the same logic, if Southern Baptists are bombing abortion clinics in Canada, American patriots should decide we don’t want our country dishonored by them and we should hunt them down and stop them? Really, the logic used as the premise for this thread is ignorant of the real world and could never be implemented.
I don’t see “scary terrorists” as a threat to me or mine. Not my fight. Must be my old con origins kicking in. If it does not concern me, I don’t give it much thought.
=================
I suppose waiting until one of your friends or family members is blown to bits or has their head removed by a dull blade suits your cowardice.
Just waiting around until your door is knocked down is a piss poor defense.
“ANTI” –
Boo!
“Monkeyhawk”-
BANG!
Fraidy-cat.
“Just waiting around until your door is knocked down is a piss poor defense.”
Better than being herded like a frightened sheep to fight battles that are not mine and follow blindly people who are not my friends.
Maggotpunk
Posted December 5, 2008 at 6:03 am | Permalink
Is that the same Bill Kristol who figured attacking Iraq was the best response to the 9-11 attack by Saudis?
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Any chance of you ever understanding that it is a war without borders? Probably not….
BlueJay
Posted December 5, 2008 at 7:27 am | Permalink
I don’t see “scary terrorists” as a threat to me or mine. Not my fight. Must be my old con origins kicking in. If it does not concern me, I don’t give it much thought.
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Actually you sound alot more like socialist in pre-war Germany. Coming to get the Jews? Not my problem.
brian_nuevo
Posted December 5, 2008 at 7:42 am | Permalink
“This can happen if those nations’ citizens decide they don’t want their own country to be dishonored by allegiances with terror groups”
So using the same logic, if Southern Baptists are bombing abortion clinics in Canada, American patriots should decide we don’t want our country dishonored by them and we should hunt them down and stop them? Really, the logic used as the premise for this thread is ignorant of the real world and could never be implemented.
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These terror groups are a little more organized and have proven so in their attacks than some far right loonies like McVeigh and Rudolph.
Monkeyhawk
Posted December 5, 2008 at 8:52 am | Permalink
Fraidy-cat.
————–
You confuse fear with readiness and the desire to protect what I love. Trust me, they are not the same.
blue jay? do you really have friends or are you exaggerating again?
Things I’ve learned from WEBlog this week:
Let’s see the Word of God is a Fairy Tale but “being nice” to terrorist so they’ll be “nice” to us is a strategy.
but “being nice” to terrorist so they’ll be “nice” to us is a strategy.
=================
Well when they have the same mindset as a terrorist, you can see why they want to be nice to them.
Patriotism is an element of protection against terrorist attacks, it is not “the key” to protection.
One must be prepared by being proactive. Businesses shouldn’t build in high risk areas unless they have a comprehensive security plan. This is just common sense.
Control the borders – without this, it’s a lost cause.
Control who gets visas – well duh
Make the plan and action a national issue and endeavor – i.e. Homeland Security
Punish countries that harbor terrorists and finances them. (Pakistan needs a spanking)
Report all suspicious activity.
There’s nothing new here and it is what the Bush administration has implemented.
So using the same logic, if Southern Baptists are bombing abortion clinics in Canada, American patriots should decide we don’t want our country dishonored by them and we should hunt them down and stop them? Really, the logic used as the premise for this thread is ignorant of the real world and could never be implemented. <posted by brian-nuevo)
Brian, don’t you think that the primary post here implies ‘within the realm and structure of the country’s laws.’ Are you saying that you, as a citizen of the United States would remain entirely apathetic if U.S. Citizens were committing acts of terrorism in another country and then returning here for refuge? Are you saying that, if you had information about these terrorists, you wouldn’t share it with authorities? Are you saying that (relative to your scenario) you would not expect the United States government to cooperate with the Canadian government in seeking and identifying these terrorists? You are skewing Kristol’s point way out of context. (Perhaps you are a professional journalist.) Are you saying that it’s entirely okay with you if India and Pakistan make no effort to and provide no cooperation with the United States in finding the terrorists who murdered U.S. citizens and others in Mumbai?
Hal has a good report on this .. for those who are not locked in their own box —
http://www.hischannel.com/streambird/75/75/vodtv.html
you all have a great weekend — http://www.nwrnetwork.com/radiostations/RealAnswersRadio/player/embedded_player.php?bw=high
Preemption for All!
Normally, I agree with Kristol, but not this time.
Terrorism is a crime, nothing more.
Do we combat bank robberies and drugs with “patriotism?”
Did “patriotism” stop Tim McVey from blowing up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City?
Often times, it’s an extreme form of patriotism that motivates the terrorists.
Terrorism is a crime
—————
Would you classify that as a misdemeanor or a felony?
What is the punishment for the ‘crime’?
I say kill em’. I guess I’m a hard ass.
LOL.
Neo-Con Extraordinaire Bill Kristol, creator of The Project for a New American Century and follower of Leon Trotsky writes this?
“The War on Terror”, like “The War on Drugs” and the “Wars on…whatever” are little more than “The War on The People”.
The attacks in Mumbai were carried out by “Hindu Zionists” and Pakistan has nothing to gain by attacking India. This is just another step taken to “fire up” World War 3. Israel already taking aim (”alone”) at Iran is another.
Isn’t is convenient that the one “terrorist” left alive was the one who could have been laid to waste early on? He was/is the one who was showboating, he was “the star”.
Isn’t it funny that these supposed Militant-Islamists were tripping on acid and speeding away with cocaine (all injected)?
Staged. And we’ll fall for it as usual. All of the “Left” will fall right in line with “Bush”…sorry Obama thinking when the shti hits the fan next year.
Pakistani “propaganda”?:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Pak_TV_channel_says_2611_hatched_by_Hindu_Zionists/articleshow/3785654.cms
The “How To” of staging terror:
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/US_Special_Forces_counter-insurgency_manual_FM_31-20-3
Now just hold on a minute here! Now looka I say looka here:
Patriotism is about giving your money to the gubermint!!!
In particular, I say, especially if’n you be rich.
Gosh Dang it libs: You cain’t keep changin’ whats everything mean dontchano!
Democrats said it be patriotic to give all your money to the gubermint so’s the gubermint can hand it out to whom they feels deserves it the mostest!
Stop trying to confuse me.
“WAR
Posted December 5, 2008 at 9:37 am | Permalink
“Brian, don’t you think that the primary post here implies ‘within the realm and structure of the country’s laws.’” >I assumed as much
“Are you saying that you, as a citizen of the United States would remain entirely apathetic if U.S. Citizens were committing acts of terrorism in another country and then returning here for refuge?” >No, but it would not be my patriotic duty to prevent it. It would be the role of the govenment to enforce its laws and treaties.
Are you saying that, if you had information about these terrorists, you wouldn’t share it with authorities? >Are you assuming that the theoretical terrorists were hiding in our country and the government was actively trying to find them and prosecute them? I would share information the same way I would call 911 if I witnessed a car wreck.
“Are you saying that (relative to your scenario) you would not expect the United States government to cooperate with the Canadian government in seeking and identifying these terrorists?” >That is a different issue. I was responding to the Kristol’s statement that ‘governments will have to call on the patriotism of citizens to fight the terrorists.’
“Are you saying that it’s entirely okay with you if India and Pakistan make no effort to and provide no cooperation with the United States in finding the terrorists who murdered U.S. citizens and others in Mumbai?” >If you reread my post you will see that I did not say that. No it is not OK with me.
However, Kristol’s implication that if Pakistan and India don’t do something about it, we will is also not ‘entirely okay with’ me.
Lets not forget that in countries like India and Pakistan (also include Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, and the good ole USA) the people and the government are not always the same.
This is true in the sense that most places the government does not act as a direct response to the will of the populace. Over time, in democratic countries, the effect is that the will of the people drives the actions of the government, but it takes time.
The will of the majority of Americans is that we should have been out of Iraq at least two or three years ago. However, it takes time for votes to happen, leaders to take office, and policies to change.
Oh crap, sorry…there were “lapses” in security. We can go back to sleep now. They realized their “errors” and are remedying them now.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,462325,00.html
I gotta take issue with Kristol. The origins of the recent contre temps lies in the division of India after WW2. The problem is Kashmir, which is 95% Muslim who wanted to go with Pakistan, however Nehru (the politico of Ghandi at the time)was a minority Kishmiri Hindu who would not have it and got his way with Louis Mountbatten, the Brit in charge of the division. (He also got his way with Edwina Montbatten.)Anyway the Brits wanted out and fastest to them, was the best. After much agitation/killings Kashmir was later divided between Pakistan and India to the annoyance of the locals who wanted to be a Muslim State. So, Kashmir is like Israel, torn out of an exisiting culture by outsiders only in a different place. The attacks will go as they do in Palestine, until past errors are corrected. If this is terrorism then so is the IRA. You know, that fabled group of Celtic heroes so loved by the Boston Irish as they killed dozens and dozens of UK citizens, tried to kill Thacher by blowing up the hotel she was staying at, exploded many, many devices in the fincancial district of London and did kill Louis Montbatten, (see above)uncle of the Queen. There was a lot of American money behind those actions, in fact New England was the main source of funds for the IRA and Gerry Adams their leader, was a guest at the White House many times much to the annoyance of the Brits, but the WE would never a harbor a terrorist would we? Patriotism IS the last refuge of a scoundrel Mr. Kristol
Why do the libtards hate America so much?
They are not patriotic.
They are not real Americans.
and…..
They will never defeat terrorism
“biased1
Posted December 5, 2008 at 2:35 pm | Permalink
and…..
They will never defeat terrorism”
That is because it is impossible to defeat a tactic. Terrorism is not the enemy it is a method of fighting.
Kristol’s words on Patriotism might have more meaning if not for a part of his ideology is that Patriotism and Religious beliefs for that matter are “popular myths”. Tools to be used to control the masses and not to be held by the likes of William Kristol. The key to a justifiable use of Preemptive action is that there is a real threat of an action on the others part. Not just a suspicion and not just maybe they might if the wind is out of the East. You can not act simple because even though they have not done it does not mean they won’t.
Another of these brilliant Neo-Conservatives is Charles Krauthhammer who recently speaking of the attack in India said that the United States must attack Pakistan if we do not want India to attack Pakistan! Ok so the logic (if I use the term loosely) is that if India attacks Pakistan then it would start a nuclear war. But if we attack Pakistan then it would just be a conventional war.
Hey that might be a way to find Bin Laden if we invaded Pakistan and occupy it. Then Bin Laden would have to flee to another country. And we could even control which country he flees to by invading and occupying all surrounding countries except for the one we want him to flee to! Oh crap I have read so much of their ideology and thoughts. Now I am thinking like a Neo-Conservative…
dadman.
Now that’s a good combo.
Kind of like wineglass.
Well hell, I know it don’t sound right but…
Can’t you defeat a tactic with a different tactic?
IMO it’s the blind America can do no wrong, it’s all about us, patriotism that has brought the mess we have today. Blind patriotism is why Ron Paul’s mentioning the blowback of flaw US foreign policy, brought ridicule of Paul, rather than intelligent discussion on the topic. As far as I’m concern Kristol is one more jerk that’s a part of the problem, not part of the solution.
May have been a different world if Britain and, the USA didn’t attack Iran & Iranians first. Allowing Israel to come to being in the manner it did was an attack on persons who where mostly not bothering anyone, just trying to survive as countries from the civilized world waged wars against one anther around them. The line between a terrorist and, non-terrorist has always been a blurry one for many so called patriots.
“RP_McMurphy
Posted December 5, 2008 at 2:54 pm | Permalink
Well hell, I know it don’t sound right but…
Can’t you defeat a tactic with a different tactic?”
In that battle, but that does not mean you have prevented future use of the tactic you want stopped.
Fighting factions will do what they perceive necessary to win. Small groups of fighters know they can never match the military might of the USA, so they will do what they can to take out as many of our troops as possible or what ever they can to get their message on the news (which may involve targeting civilians).
I am not validating these things, just telling you how it is.
brains_never
I am not validating these things, just telling you how it is.
——————————
Give up, throw in the towel, wave your white flag of surrender you gutless, spineless libtard! True Americans will NEVER stop fighting terrorism.
Just telling you how it is…………
nit.
“biased1
Posted December 5, 2008 at 5:19 pm | Permalink
Give up, throw in the towel, wave your white flag of surrender you gutless, spineless libtard! True Americans will NEVER stop fighting terrorism.”
True Americans have the intelligence and balls to question what their government tells them rather than just going along with an ill-defined ‘war on terrorism’ because they are angry.
“True” Americans will never stop fighting terrorism. Damned right. But first you have to know who the real terrorists are.
And rag tag groups of Arabs that are funded by us and in the past, were trained by us and left out in the cold (after their usefulness wore off) by those who trained them, our illustrious CIA; they aren’t the enemy, sorry. Facts.
Someone cited Ron Paul upthread and was correct in doing so. Whatever real terrorists there are, they are commited to doing whatever they can to destroy those who left them to slaughter in the 80’s. Blowback.
Our policies and determination to be the “World’s Police” are precisely why were are where we’re at.
And furthermore, one must believe that there is a legitimate “terrorist threat” to begin with. And I don’t subscribe to that line of reasoning. I am a “True American”, but will never stand by and pledge blind allegiance to psychopath’s for the cause of “Patriotism”. I have a conscience and need to sleep at night. I am, before any flag, a child and servant of “God”, whatever that means. And when I see obvious wrong, from “my side” or “theirs”, I’ll call a spade a spade.
The sad and unfortunate ignorance of the few straggler’s who still buy into the lies and propaganda of “our” own Government is and will be our downfall.
Real American’s are discerning, thoughtful, courageous and bold. They are leaders and inventors. “Real” American’s are not followers and are not easily led by the worst of humanity.
We are running out of “salt of the Earth”, real Americans.
How do you defeat an enemy that you can’t define? You can’t. Everyone is a terrorist.
Will you “lefty” and “righty’s” ever admit that both of your sides voted for and pushed ALL of the policies that brought us to the current World of Hurt that we’re in and will be in for the next…many, many years?
No, you won’t. You both have each other a scapegoats. What a perfect set up for failure we have. You can cancel each other out and move on to your next disaster for us.
brains_never = Abby Hoffman
Phluffer = Jane Fonda
biased1=any Third Riech SS trooper “just following orders” by guarding and killing all of that trash and all of those terrorists at Belzek, Chelmno, Treblinka, Auschwitz…
Jane Fonda?
Really?
I’m not famous, have no tits and have no “pull”. I’m “for the troops” (as all of you zombies like to chant), I want to get them the frick home to their families. I want them to get some reprieve from fighting the bankers’ war’s. You want to prove how “bad ass” you are. There is nothing else you offer America than your fiegned love of Country and your (proof of your weakness and cowardice) machismo.
Look, all of these governments are corrupt, I have zero love for any of them. Be they Muslim, Israeli or Christian…of nothing. It’s the country’s people that I’m championing. They, like us are trapped by greedy leader’s and…ahh forget it.
But really, Jane Fonda?
Be they Muslim, Israeli or Christian…OR nothing.
Dying to Win–The Logic of Suicide Bombers by Richard Pape.
He looks at suicide terrorists around the globe. Most of them are not even religious, let alone Muslim.
Why do they do it? One word: patriotism.
They believe their land has been occupied by an invading force. Palestinians in Israel, Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Vietnamese against the French and American, Algerians against the French, etc. etc.
Fighting for one’s land is the only thing worth dying for, or at least that’s what the terrorists think, according to Pape.
That was the reason 9-11 happened, btw.
The US was occupying the “land of the two holies” according to Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda, The Base?
The United Kingdom politician Robin Cook, who served as the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary and Leader of the House of Commons described Al-Qaeda as meaning “the database” and a product of western miscalculation. Cook wrote, “Al-Qaida, literally “the database”, was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.”
Blowback.