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Still time to look at the almost Full, but waning, Moon, as it heads towards the northwestern horizon over the Ninnescah River valley. Because Friday was technically the Full Full Moon, it is beginning to wane but still appears virtually full.
Right now, because of its elliptical orbit, the Moon is a little closer to the Earth than normal so it might appear a little larger than normal, bar clouds and rain. The Moon will set this morning at about 8:44 AM, about an hour after the Sun rises.
And according to the weather report, coats will be the order of the day when the cold front arrives this PM.
So get ready for winter!
Rhonda: I found your main editorial in this morning’s Wichita EAGLE a bit distressing. On one hand, you criticize the lack of interest in local issues in Wichita. On the other hand, you and Phillip “seldom seen” Brownlee fail to put blog threads on the WE Blog relating to the travesties that are going on with taxpayers money in Wichita.
For one thing, Wichita’s elected leaders continuously and consistently fail to include the public in decision making. The attitude of Wichita’s political leaders seems to be, “We will tell you what you want. Then if you, the taxpayers will stay out of the way, we will spend your hard earned taxes to give you what we want to.”
Remember the old Communist motto applied to Wichita: “We will take all the taxes we can get from the sweat from backs of hard working Wichitans according to their god-given abilities. Then we will funnel this money to Wichita’s Good Old Boy Network according to their needs whether or not beneficial to the taxpayers.”
I don’t think urine colored seats in the new downtown white elephant arena and without parking at that, is going to be the pablum the people of Wichita are hungry for.
Wichitans are hungry for the opportunity to really participate in their local governments before giving buy-in. Two minutes before a council or commission sitting high above them on a dias doesn’t get it. Under this scenerio, the council and commission just needs black robes to complete the picture.
And Rhonda, the Wichita EAGLE is contributing to this lack of buy-in by the Wichita public because the Wichita EAGLE doesn’t use the newspaper to help the public really be involved in a meaningful way.
Frankly, the public needs to see some heads roll out of the various top levels of our Wichita local government bureacracies to get rid of the “It’s us versus them” attitude that’s so prevalent around here.
Don’t dare, as one well-meaning godmother attempted, bring frosted cupcakes to a child’s birthday celebration at the Browns Mill Elementary School in Lithonia, Ga. “Our school is sugar-free,” says principal Yvonne Sanders-Butler. “No sugar!” And so the cupcakes were sent away, pronto.
It was another victory for Sanders-Butler, who nixed refined sugars and revamped school lunches and physical education classes for her students in 1999. Within a year student disciplinary problems dropped, as did visits to the school nurse, while math and reading scores improved by 15 percent. Can the dietary changes take any credit? “Studies show that when you take sugar out of the diet, you will reap the benefits of a child who is more attentive,” says Dr. John Maupin, president of the Morehouse School of Medicine, which is studying what Sanders-Butler calls the nation’s first, and only, sugar-free school.
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20163497,00.html
Stockholm schools that banned sweets, buns and soft drinks saw the number of overweight children drop by six percentage points in four years, a Karolinska Institute study published on Monday showed.
The number of overweight or obese six-to-10-year-olds dropped from 22 to 16 percent in the 10 Stockholm schools that participated in the study by banning sweets and introducing healthier lunches, the Swedish research institute said in a statement.
A control group of schools that did not introduce specific food regulations saw the number of overweight or obese children rise from 18 to 21 percent.
The results of the project were to be presented on Monday in Budapest at an international conference on obesity.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070423110721.l8xrsiv6&show_article=1
Americans: too damned dumb to even comprehend our real problems. Coca Cola creates more misery and kills more Americans in a week than all the illegal drugs combined do in a year. Sugar is a DRUG. Well, off the soapbox for some more coffee.
December 13, 2008
Uranium and Coal are Obamas’ Only Realistic Options
“Mr Obama has frequently declared his preference for renewable energy sources and has pledged $150 billion in his first term to develop solar, wind power, bio fuels and other resources.
The cold hard fact is that even in twenty years time renewable energy alternatives will still account for no more than a minor source of power in the US and even less in developing nations such as China and India.
Like it or not, as electricity demands increase worldwide and oil reserves are depleted, the only realistic options are nuclear power in the shape of uranium…..
The day will surely come when patient investors who get in at today’s rock bottom prices will realise massive profits as the pipe dream of renewable energy is confronted and virtually destroyed by the cold hard facts….
Let us not forget that our planet still contains coal reserves expected to last 200 years at the present rate of consumption and that new uranium deposits seem to be discovered virtually every day so no likely shortage there for many years.”
Time to quit fooling around with these ‘clean dreams’ and face reality.
beber, bull. Sugar is not a drug. In the body, it coverts to glucose, and most foods will covert to glucose which is basic to human function. Too much of a good thing is bad for everyone.
Beber its we have forgotten or even abandoned the meaning of the word “moderation” PM said it correctly that sugar is a needed element for the body. But too much is harmful and our society have so advanced that the old days when everything was a struggle is gone. No chopping wood for warmth nor hunting and farming to eat. To make matter worst many schools have even stopped having P.E. classes that required physical effort. Blaming sugar for the disciplinary problems in schools is like blaming cars for the problem of drunk driving. Our schools have became so politically correct that to enforce disciple is seen as undermining the authority of the parents.
beber, you sound like the “Health Police”. I can see where Obama will be taking us. Yeah, we’ll all get “free” healthcare, sorry…”Universal” healthcare, but sugar will be out and aspartame (Equal or Sweet and Low) will be in.
“Let us choose for you!”, cries Obama.
Fuggin’ wunnerful.
P_mama,
beger is most likely a product of government schools, and they didn’t teach that glucose was the bodies fuel, that excess is stored as fat but converted back as needed.
His is an alternate universe liberal view that feels government should control everything in everyone’s life, and can for the better. He fails to realize that government is also just people, and usually ones that can’t do anything else and is why they are working for government.
Cons really don’t want to move forward on anything do they? Why are you all so afraid of change?
Pleef, Obama isn’t going to enact any such thing. Don’t project, besides, Beber looks like he’s had his fair share of real drugs and sugars.
Don’t put Beber in the classification of liberal. I don’t know what he is, but he’s not in any mold.
Political_mama
Posted December 14, 2008 at 8:14 am
“Don’t put Beber in the classification of liberal. I don’t know what he is, but he’s not in any mold.”
Sorry P_mama, it wasn’t my intention to insult you this morning, and I suppose that if you consider yourself liberal that’s exactly what I did.
np box
So have you p.m., why do you think your back hurts?
Sugar is not a drug: Watch the 250 pound women at the convenience store chugging their morning 64-ounce slurpies. It’s a drug because too much makes you high. Watch the idiots down their $3 a can energy drinks.
Like I said, you’re too fucking dumb to understand what is killing you because you saw a Coke ad on television.
#
beber
Posted December 14, 2008 at 8:48 am | Permalink
Sugar is not a drug: Watch the 250 pound women at the convenience store chugging their morning 64-ounce slurpies. It’s a drug because too much makes you high. Watch the idiots down their $3 a can energy drinks.
Like I said, you’re too fucking dumb to understand what is killing you because you saw a Coke ad on television.
———————
Glucose is in about every food nub.
Learn your basic food chemistry.
Those folks will have find a place to worship today thanks to a wacko(s). Partisan cancer is making this country sick, isn’t it?
Palin’s Church Severely Damaged by Arson
Associated Press
Sunday, December 14, 2008; A02
ANCHORAGE, Dec. 13 — Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin’s home church was badly damaged by arson, leading the governor to apologize Saturday if the fire was connected to “undeserved negative attention” from her campaign as the Republican vice presidential nominee.
Damage to the Wasilla Bible Church was estimated at $1 million, authorities said. No one was injured in the fire, which was set Friday night while a handful of people, including two children, were inside, according to James Steele, the Central Mat-Su fire chief.
#
outlander
Posted December 14, 2008 at 8:50 am | Permalink
Those folks will have find a place to worship today thanks to a wacko(s). Partisan cancer is making this country sick, isn’t it?
Palin’s Church Severely Damaged by Arson
Associated Press
Sunday, December 14, 2008; A02
ANCHORAGE, Dec. 13 — Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin’s home church was badly damaged by arson, leading the governor to apologize Saturday if the fire was connected to “undeserved negative attention” from her campaign as the Republican vice presidential nominee.
Damage to the Wasilla Bible Church was estimated at $1 million, authorities said. No one was injured in the fire, which was set Friday night while a handful of people, including two children, were inside, according to James Steele, the Central Mat-Su fire chief.
=====================
Libs are into church burning now eh?
Why am I not surprised.
Actually, more correctly I should have said sugars are in most foods. Maltose, Glucose, Sucrose, etc.
And then those foods converted to sugars after digestion.
Diabetics are acutely aware of sugars being in foods.
Genetic drift.
Question: What country has the highest per capita consumption of refined sugars.
Ans: Mexico
Question: What country has the highest per capita rate of diabetes.
Ans: Mexico.
Conclusion: Dumber than a box of rocks.
Do you have to be hit with a box of bricks?
As diagnoses of autism have increased throughout the nation, experts and parents have cast about for possible explanations, including genetics, birth injuries and childhood immunizations. The California study found that none of these factors could explain an increase of the magnitude reported there — more than triple from 1987 to 1998.
WASHINGTON - Citing new figures that show that in 1999 Americans ate more sugar than ever before, the nonprofit Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) is urging the federal government to advise consumers to limit their sugar intake. According to new U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) data, sugar consumption in 1999 was 158 pounds per person — 30 percent higher than in 1983. Consumption has risen every year but one since 1983.
The rates for diabetes and obesity are increasing likewise.
Hand a gun to most liberals and you can see what happens. No wonder they think no one should have a gun, they fail to realize it is just themselves that are incompetent, as they are in about everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA
“Libs are into church burning now eh?
Why am I not surprised.”
Any evidnce to support that supposition?
After YOUR side did the Anthrax attacks you sure seem quick to place blame for this property crime.
PS:
Just having fun with you liberals and the gun video, don’t get your bowels in an uproar this morning.
I realize the video is only ‘mostly true’ for liberals.
glucose - the difference between glucose from rfined sugar and complex foods lies in how it hits the system. A quick surge followed by a crash or a constant stream. The former is not good for the system while the latter is.
As a candy bar eater I am not advocating any sort of ban but simply noting some reality we should be aware of. Sometimes that little ’sugar fix’ can be good but we should be aware of the subsequent letdown.
“Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin’s home church was badly damaged by arson”
BlueJay sings…
We didn’t start the fire.
but?
Burn baby burn!
“leading the governor to apologize Saturday if the fire was connected to “undeserved negative attention” from her campaign as the Republican vice presidential nominee.”
Hmmmm.
Palin apologizes if the church was a target because of her.
BEFORE it is determined that the fire was due to arson?
She seems to be ahead of the investigation.
I wonder how that is?
Well, if the church needs money for the rebuild?
They might get a start here.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/09/palin-slaughtered-turkey_n_149728.html
There was a fire at Palin’s church.
Just hours after, Palin sez “I’m really sorry if someone burned down the church because of me.” (paraphrasing)
Then, it is determined that the fire is due to arson.
Hmm……..
Prediction:
Money will POUR into Alaska to rebuild the church.
The rather unattractive, metal building will be rebuilt as a glass and steel cathedral.
Question is? Did somebody else make the prediction first? And, were they thinking politics too?
beber predicts: Candles in the lobby set the church on fire.
Just as likely, it was a short in the Christmas lights: happens all the time at this time of year.
TO: Both sides of the pendulum….
RE: Church fire in Alaska….
WAIT for the official word from the fire department investigators…. before assigning any blame for the tragedy… ANY church that is damaged due to arson is concern for ALL… regardless of denomination, or religion….
Heh.
“I was tryin’ to light one of those candle thingies for our Jewish friends ya know. I really wanted ta do a good job of it, so I borrowed a flame blower from the Alaska national guard. I put it on full because I was full of holiday spirit.”
“Year after year, our leaders offer up detailed health plans with great fanfare and promise, only to see them fail, derailed by Washington politics and influence peddling,” Mr. Obama said at Thursday’s news conference in Chicago. “This simply cannot continue. The runaway cost of health care is punishing families and businesses across our country.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/weekinreview/14sack.html
Will we finally see universal health care? Will a failing economy demand serious changes in the way health care is delivered in this country?
Chas - agreed. As noted, it may well be lights or candles etc.
What burned and did the damage was insulation/studs in the walls. I wonder who the contractor was? Haw, haw, haw.
‘Council on Foreign Relations is duped by Inhofe, labels denial rehash an “Essential Document” and a “primary source”
http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/11/council-on-foreign-relations-is-duped-by-inhofe-labels-denial-rehash-an-essential-document-and-a-primary-source/
Just for fun.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/12/14/world/14bush4_650.jpg
Please offer a caption for this photo of Bush in Iraq..
Thank you Mr. Davis: Here’s the citation that describes how many administrations have cooked the books to make the numbers seem better than they really are. President Clinton, btw, was a chief cooker; Bush has not changed the rules according to the article, but why would he? He simply lies. So much purer, really.
Read “Numbers Racket” in the May 2008 issue of Harper’s Magazine to see how comparing todays reported numbers with numbers reported in the past is almost meaningless.
Boxlock20,
Your 7:48 am copy/paste from preciousmetalinvestment.com is funny!
Are people who read that site really so dumb that they believe it offers expert energy advice?
So dumb that they’d invest in coal power plants, which will be hit with carbon taxes? So dumb they’d invest in nuclear power, which is not cost-competitive?
Reporter throws shoes at Mr. Bush during Iraq press conference. “This is a farewell kiss, dog,” he shouted.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/world/middleeast/15prexy.html?_r=1&hp
Haw, haw, haw.
beber
Posted December 14, 2008 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
Reporter throws shoes at Mr. Bush during Iraq press conference. “This is a farewell kiss, dog,” he shouted.
——————-
Maybe they’ll take the reporter who threw the shoes to Abu Grav, take naked photos and have guard dogs yap at him.
“Maybe they’ll take the reporter who threw the shoes to Abu Grav, take naked photos and have guard dogs yap at him.”
I’m sure Regular would like to supervise this personally, since he enjoys torture so much!!
LOL
Bush just can’t get no respect! Does he even know that throwing of shoes at someone is a cultural act of disrespect?
‘Shoes thrown at Bush on Iraq trip ‘
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7782422.stm
“An Iraqi journalist was wrestled to the floor by security guards after he called Mr Bush “a dog” and threw his footwear, just missing the president.
The soles of shoes are considered the ultimate insult in Arab culture.
…
Correspondents called it a symbolic incident. Iraqis threw shoes and used them to beat Saddam Hussein’s statue in Baghdad after his overthrow.”
The man is universally hated and held in contempt.
I call it a good sign for freedom that the man feels at liberty to do such thing. Let Freedom Ring and let the shoes hit the heels!
FOUNDING FATHER CORNER
The popular culture today says that America was founded as a secular nation. That religion was intended to be excluded from public life. The truth is, they are re-writing history and attempting to subvert the place of religion in America.
I will be posting quotes from the founding fathers setting out in their own words the importance that these great men placed on the tenants of religion and morality to our society. We must not lose these pillars or we lose our country. Wake up Americans! These principles are worth fighting for.
George Washington (Farewell address, 9-17-1796).
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports… In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens.”
“The man is universally hated and held in contempt.”
——
He earned every bit of ill will shown to him, and deserves no respect from any person.
The founding fathers were not demi gods, oracles, or divinely assigned.
They were just men. And they lived in a vastly different world than we do today.
THEIR take on much of anything is at best, mildly interesting. Their views are also highly subject to biased interpretation.
Outlander — When you can find your “religiosity” in the words of the Constitution, perhaps then some might tend to take you seriously. The nation was not founded on speeches, or portions of letters… it was founded on the principles of the Constitution… Please try to remember that… The Founders considered religious belief to be a matter of personal privacy… not a foundation for government.
Please, don’t confuse us with nuance and subtleties, nor details nor facts…
The Founders considered religious belief to be a matter of personal privacy… not a foundation for government.
—————
Ah, but Chas their own words say differently.
More to come.
beber
Posted December 14, 2008 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
Reporter throws shoes at Mr. Bush during Iraq press conference. “This is a farewell kiss, dog,” he shouted.
—
lol
Hell, Bush springs a surprise visit on Iraq only to get two shoes thrown at him.
In public. Correction: in the Middle East, and in public. With photos.
No wonder he’s always avoided open news converences, he knew what was coming, lol.
It’s pretty rich in imagery, you gotta admit. ; >)
outlander prefers to base his beliefs on obviously biased and inaccurate misinterpretations, such as from Sen. Inhofe (R-Oil) and David Deming.
(Re Inhofe’s 650 deniers list)
‘Inhofe: less honest than the Discovery Institute‘
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/12/inhofe_less_honest_than_the_di.php
“David Deming, Associate Professor of Geosciences, University of Oklahoma. In an op-ed in the Edmond Sun he wrote
Obama is a vapid demagogue, a hollow man that despises American culture. He is ill-suited to be president of the United States. As the weeks pass, more Americans will come to this realization and elect McCain/Palin in a landslide.“
outlander,
When religious belief is used as a foundation for government, that is known as a theocracy.
And, morality isn’t only a product of religion.
In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University, who had asked him his views on religion:
“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble….
Benjamin Franklin was a Deist, by the way.
“Deism is the belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world. Deists generally reject the notion of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth or religious dogma. These views contrast with the dependence on divine revelation found in many Christian[1], Islamic and Judaic teachings.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deist
Deists like Franklin believed that religious truths exist outside of divine revelation, that the same conclusions about morality can be arrived at by reason.
In other reason, morality owes no debt to religion.
Deism is alive and well in the US today, by the way.
Especially in New England, including eastern Pennsylvania.
lindainks55 posted December 14, 2008 at 2:10 pm
And, morality isn’t only a product of religion.
—————
Very true.
And many immoralities have been done because of religion — wars, persecution, etc.
Absolutely cosmos! In fact, through the ages religion has shown to be an effective tool for inciting the type hatred needed to justify killing another human.
Those Founding Fathers were outright radicals and mavericks… they would have been hung in the town square had things gone against them.
Gawd bless um
I can just see fox headline, Breaking News, bush the victim of shoe bombing!
As a for instance…
Benjamin Franklin was WIDELY vilified by many Christians for inventing the lightning rod!
See, they thought lightning was an act of God. If your house got hit by lightning, it was SUPPOSED to burn down! Franklin was seen as subverting the “will of God”.
I guess I should be thankful for early American Christian supersticion though. My I don’t know how many times great grandfather Thomas Barnes’s first wife was executed as a witch. But for that, he never marries his second wife and my I don’t know how many times great grandmother.
Many of our Constitutional freedoms were influenced by the teachings of Jesus, I don’t think anyone can deny that. Our ethics are basically Christian. The founders also wanted to make sure religious matters and state matters were separate. Thus, they wrote the Constitution. You don’t need to know what the founders said, because what the intended is clear to all and signed by them. — The Constitution.
As an aside here, Thomas married my ? great grandmother less than a year after his first wife was executed. Makes ya wonder if getting somebody executed was easier and more socially acceptable than divorce or adultery!
All recorded references to the religion clause in the first Congress:
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/basic4a.htm
If anyone thinks this guy is making things up (he’s not), WSU’s library has well-aged volumes of Annals of Congress, for your perusal.
Particularly interesting is the original language proposed by James Madison (the real “father of our country”):
“The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed. “
Ah, but BlueJay, your ? great-grandfather had a shorter life and not nearly as much time to waste in finding his new helpmate. Helpmate is an appropriate term, as life was much more difficult and everyday needs required more effort.
Oh my god!. Global warming is coming fast with Obama. Watch out we can save the world with your money. The worst is yet to come folks. We will have the greenies out of control and after control of our lives and pocketbooks.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D952LKOO1&show_article=1
george,
You better hide under your bed for the next 4 (or 8) years.
Obama’s excellent choice for Secretary of Energy.
‘Chuse Science’
http://www.desmogblog.com/steven-chu-science-obama
“. . .and has himself transformed into a climate campaigner who put it like this in an interview with Science: “This is a problem we have to address, and we have a limited amount of time to do it. What we do in the first half of this century, we will see the consequences for the next 500 to 1000 years.” “
Leglislative history of the religion clauses:
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/basic4.htm
Naw, clueless bush just thought it was the equivalent of heckling someone at a speech. Should’ve known.
“Bush on farewell visit to Iraq says war not yet won
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.By Matt Spetalnick Matt Spetalnick – 39 mins ago
Featured Topics: Barack Obama Presidential Transition . Reuters – U.S. President George W. Bush waves as he walks on the South Lawn of the White House upon his return … . Play Video Video: Guilt By Association? FOX News . Play Video Video: Gitmo Dilemma FOX News . Play Video Video: Obama’s Green Team ABC News .BAGHDAD (Reuters) – President George W. Bush made a farewell visit to Baghdad Sunday, flying in secret out of Washington to declare that while great strides have been taken toward peace, “the war is not over.”
Just weeks before he bequeaths the unpopular Iraq war to President-elect Barack Obama, Bush sought to show improved security after five years of sectarian bloodshed by landing in daylight and venturing out beyond the city’s heavily fortified international Green Zone.
In a sign of lingering anger over the war that will define the Republican president’s foreign policy legacy, an Iraqi journalist shouted “this is a goodbye kiss from the Iraqi people, dog,” and hurled his shoes at Bush during a news conference with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.
Throwing shoes at somebody is a supreme insult in the Middle East. One of the shoes sailed over the president’s head and slammed into the wall behind him and he had to duck to miss the other one. Maliki tried to block the second shoe with his arm.
“It’s like going to a political rally and have people yell at you. It’s a way for people to draw attention,” Bush said. “I don’t know what the guy’s cause was. I didn’t feel the least bit threatened by it.”
Yeah, I like to give ?G grampa Barnes the benefit of the doubt too linda.
The descendants of wife number one might feel otherwise…
#
beber
Posted December 14, 2008 at 2:38 pm | Permalink
Many of our Constitutional freedoms were influenced by the teachings of Jesus, I don’t think anyone can deny that. Our ethics are basically Christian. The founders also wanted to make sure religious matters and state matters were separate. Thus, they wrote the Constitution. You don’t need to know what the founders said, because what the intended is clear to all and signed by them. — The Constitution.
————
Beber: you are absolutely correct that our ethics, our morals are Judeo-Christian based. What has happened though, in the misdirected zeal to eliminate any smidgen of religious influence (under the banner of separation of church and state) these morals have been cut loose from their moorings. And thus we are in grave danger of running aground.
Golly gee, bush actually made an unannounced daylight landing! The surge must’ve worked!
The ethics/morality of the 18th Century are not at all like those of the 21st. Please try to keep that in mind….
outlander,
You seem to to be concerned about morals and religion. Do you consider lying to be immoral and a sin?
Do you consider people who lie about climate science, like Sen Inhofe, Dennis Avery, and David Deming, to be immoral and sinners?
Or do you excuse their lies, because of your free-market ideology. . . or some other reason?
. What has happened though, in the misdirected zeal to eliminate any smidgen of religious influence (under the banner of separation of church and state) these morals have been cut loose from their moorings.
If by that, you mean that government must justify its use of power in secular rather than religious terms, you are correct. Which is precisely what the Founders of our constitutional government intended.
But we still get instances of government instituting religion (e.g legislative prayers, vigorously opposed by Madison), or violating civil rights on the basis of religion (Prop 8 and Prop 102).
While the final language of the First Amendment was considerably changed from Madison’s original, the essential principles remained the same.
Hasn’t every generation thought morals were slipping in those younger than themselves? There is evil in our world, always has been. We probably hear more today since we have such technological advances bringing us news from around the world instantaneously, but it probably isn’t worse than a generation ago.
Hasn’t every generation thought morals were slipping in those younger than themselves?
And even if it’s true, government should tread lightly and by overwhelming, non-religious consensus when it comes to enforcing morality by law. Those who draw their convictions from their respective faiths are free to convince others they are correct. But what are not free to do is pass legislation that cannot be defended without reference to any religious doctrine–even where the doctrines happen to agree.
Thomas Jefferson once noted that proper authority of government reaches actions, not opinions. It’s a good place to start.
The teaching of goodness, kindness, morality is not limited to religion. And as Rage said better than I ever could, “…government should tread lightly and by overwhelming, non-religious consensus when it comes to enforcing morality by law.”
Here’s some other lessons from various sources we would all do well to heed:
“Goodness is the only investment that never fails.” — Henry David Thoreau
“True religion is real living; living with all one’s soul, with all one’s goodness and righteousness.” — Albert Einstein
“Wisdom has its root in goodness, not goodness its root in wisdom.” — Ralph Waldo Emerson
“Every religion emphasizes human improvement, love, respect for others, sharing other people’s suffering. On these lines every religion had more or less the same viewpoint and the same goal.” The Dalai Lama
The Golden Rule (of which every religion has a version): “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.” Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
Finally, “Sugar attracts more flies than vinegar.” My Grandmother (who probably isn’t the author, but she is who taught it to me.)
Those who believe that the only basis for morality is in religious faith, are living in cocoons made by their own ignorance, and willful separation from reality.
Chas: Is there a source of absolute truth?
Yea; it is beber.
The real reason bigotbawks and grmie and other cowards on this blog dont want anyone to know how they make their living.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221×99147
The comments are priceless. And if the gay community in Wichita and Kansas were not such gutless cowards, we could be having the same effect here.
Starting with gail finney.
THE SHOES WERE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He needs that treatment EVRYWHERE he goes.
God, I HATE that shitbag.
Hey farmgrrl,
FINALLY ‘Milk” is in Wichita! Boy I wish you lived here. I would love to see that movie with you and then sit for hours discussing it! When my son was home at Thanksgiving we all talked about going to see a movie and that was the one he suggested. Alas, it wasn’t showing. He will be here soon for Christmas. Maybe we’ll see that movie while he is home. Wish you could go with us!
“The real reason bigotbawks and grmie and other cowards on this blog dont want anyone to know how they make their living.”
They both have given very broad hints about what they do for a living.
Hey, KFG, is it cold up there? It is unbelieveably cold down here! Last I checked it was 19 degrees.
Where is Milk showing Linda?
Warren East according to the morning paper.
Heh Linda, that would be nice, wouldnt it?
Steven, the wind chill is twelve below here. Absolute temperature is seven degrees
I took hot water up to the chickens a little while ago and shut their little chicken door even though it isnt dark yet. I hope they make it through the night. No electricity in the chicken house anymore:(
I gave the cats some extra food today too. They were all huddled up in the hayloft of the barn. And Summer is pushing me off the heating pad!
HOW did pioneers survive weeks of this? I’m sure glad I dont have to use an outhouse these days…
frmgrl, I know and am friends with the Kansas democratic chair of the LGBT caucus and trust me no one I know fights harder for gay rights than him
I would boycott the restaurant too. I don’t feel sorry for her one bit.
“HOW did pioneers survive weeks of this? I’m sure glad I dont have to use an outhouse these days…”
—-
Ya know, they had canopies!
I know him too tompaine. And he, like your local guys, is a democrat first, and a gay man second. He’s all for gay rights, until governor leadership or the KDP yanks his chain.
When you all get rid of gail finney, give me a call.
I agree Pmom. And I especially like how they sold more alcohol than food. Some good morman, huh?
Like they said. Doctrine for thee but not for me.
I hope the place shuts down and she’s out on the street. Soon.
I agree with you PMom! I refer to a post Rage made earlier today and wish our founders had stayed with the original language although I am positive the Constitution has the same intent!:
“Particularly interesting is the original language proposed by James Madison (the real “father of our country”):
“The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed. “
Heh Linda. Wouldnt it be nice if THAT were the real America?
Like repukes giving bushco all these extraordinary powers, churches should beware. What goes around comes around. All those powers they use to deny equal treatment under the law could be used against them someday when the winds change.
That day cant come too soon for me and mine.
The bigots will find themselves marginalized in the next administration. Civil rights will improve! Those that profess HATE in the name of god will have to find other ways to express their hate. Maybe finally they will actually concentrate on how they live their own personal life and how they conduct themselves instead of ignoring their own souls in order to stand in judgment!
outlander
Posted December 14, 2008 at 4:22 pm | Permalink
Chas: Is there a source of absolute truth?
================================================
Outlander — IF you could name such a source, it would not be absolute…
I dont know Linda. It seems that hate and persecution never go out of style in America.
I did not know about Gail Finney. She sounds pretty dispicable and not just an ordinary and average bigot. She is also proof that appealing to the more bigoted nature of Kansans is a winning strategy.
Here is a web page about her:
http://gayzetteblog.com/2008/08/06/kansas-democrat-gay-baits-her-way-to-victory-last-night/
Is she any relation to Joan Finney? - the clueless former governor of Kansas?
“Is she any relation to Joan Finney?”
Nope. Different races. Go figure which churches finney was pandering to.
She could have won without being a bigot. But… true colors and all.
“It seems that hate and persecution never go out of style in America.”
—
Is it easier for people (ALL of us) to criticize someone else rather than face ourselves? Do we all suffer from the “fix someone” syndrome?
Steven, they whiiiiiined about Inga taking out of state money. The same thing the repukes whiiiiined about with Raj.
But when Raj did it, it was just good business. When Inga did it? Well, you know the rest.
I think the problem was that Inga’s money was out of state GAY money. And it wasnt the “out of state” that was the problem.
Well see how bad that “out of state” money is if Raj runs for higher office.
Hypocrisy, thy name is…
And gail finney will get away with it and the gay community wont say a mumblin’ word to defend themselves.
Kumbaya
“I think the problem was that Inga’s money was out of state GAY money.”
I can see where people in Kansas would be afraid of this. Such money from all over the country could be a pretty formidable force. Not excusing them, mind you, but I can see why the folks would be afraid.
There was a lot of out of state money that flowed into Kansas in the attempt to defeat the Board of Education members who were anti-science. I personally like it when blue state people try and help us into the 20th century [sic - this is Kansas and all, ya know].
I’ve always felt President Carter is a good man. I understand the criticisms leveled of his four years as president and don’t want to debate those as even then I thought he was a good man. What could be lost, or endangered, by his diplomatic meetings?
————
(CNN) — Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter met Sunday in Damascus, Syria, with Khaled Meshaal, the exiled leader of Hamas’ political wing, a Hamas official said.
The five-hour meeting ended late Sunday and covered several issues, including Cpl. Gilad Shalit — an Israeli soldier held captive by Hamas since June 2006, the official said.
Carter previously met with Meshaal in April.
In that meeting, the Hamas leader promised Carter that the group would allow Shalit to send a message to his parents, Noam and Aviva.
Carter also asked Hamas to release Shalit, Meshaal said after the former president’s visit, but the request was rejected.
Hamas said Sunday it will soon release a statement about the latest meeting between Carter and Meshaal.
Carter’s series of meetings with top Hamas officials in April garnered condemnation from the U.S. and Israeli governments.
They criticized him for engaging in diplomacy with a group that both governments consider a terrorist organization.
How the incoming Obama administration will receive Carter’s meetings with Hamas remains to be seen.
During his visit in Syria, Carter also visited the Saint Taqla convent in the city of Maalula, north of Damascus, with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/14/carter.hamas/
Steven, I dont have any problem with out of state money. Hell, what our legislators do affects the entire country, not just kansas. It’s the selective outrage that makes me ache. Democrats normally LOVE out of state money, unless, of course, it’s money to help a gay candidate.
“Go figure which churches finney was pandering to.”
Those churches fighting against the rights of others just makes no sense on any number of levels. I would be interested in understanding how they frame their position.
I thought this was interesting, and it certainly says exactly what I feel too. You can see the truth of it every day on this blog. Of course, the devil will ice skate before kansas cuts this cancer out of it’s body politic.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103×408934
There IS a silver lining, if you will to the hate amendments.
They only get to play that card once. And they’ve just about played it out.
In 2004, they used them in SEVENTEEN states to gin up the base in order to help re elect george bush. And THAT barely got it done.
In 2008, Sarah Palin was the draw for this crowd as there were few states left to use the hate amendment tactic. We see how that went.
So, they essentially shot their wad…to get four more years of bush. I wonder if they think it was worth it?
“I would be interested in understanding how they frame their position.”
God wants it so.
I love that they base their bigotry on the same bible and the same theology that were used to keep them in chains.
How quickly they forget. As Linda sort of alluded, everyone needs to feel superior to someone.
I have no idea whether this answers any questions. I can’t find a reason why any people would discriminate against other people and even less justification for those who say they base their lives around faith and god, goodness, love, charity…
What does the Bible actually say about being gay?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3205727.stm
Dammit, is this another one of those gay blogs?
‘Cause I left my gay shoes in the closet today…
Well, go barefoot. But stay inside because your little piggies — the ones that went to market, or not, the ones that had roast beef — would freeze if they went outside uncovered in Kansas!
If you’re gonna be hateful take your whole body outside uncovered!
To cold for hate Linda.
Hate called in sick today!
“I love that they base their bigotry on the same bible and the same theology that were used to keep them in chains.”
The irony of that is pretty overpowering. I would think that the mental gymnastics that go into maintaining that much cognitive dissonance would be very interesting.
Tonight is one of the rare occasions my bird dogs get to sleep inside…..Also the only time my wife feels sorry for them!
“Of course, the devil will ice skate before kansas cuts this cancer out of it’s body politic.”
I think that is likely true.
I also think it will matter less and less.
See, as I am always telling sir Bawksalot, the cons have a really serious problem.
They’re aging and dying. Aging, for some of them, brings them into a more community oriented consideration of matters. Some of them switch sides.
Death removes them from the debate completely. And they are not generating replacements for the ranks. It is my hope and also my belief that in a not too distant future, the hard right will be marginalized into irellevance.
And a LOT of them will live long enough to “enjoy” that. I will enjoy seeing that.
“The irony of that is pretty overpowering.”
HA, well, ya know what I always say, Steven. Irony is always lost on those who most need to see it.
I don’t know how long my canine friend can keep her legs crossed but so far when she is asking to go out and I open the door she runs away from the open door quickly. I trust her but before I go to bed she and I will go out together and find someplace out of the wind…
“Death removes them from the debate completely.”
From your lips to “god’s” ears. Cant happen soon enough. I’ll likely not live long enough to see it.
I am remembering those stories about how the Jewish guards (I think they called them Cappos) were the most ruthless to the concentration camp detainees in WW II.
“It seems that hate and persecution never go out of style in America.”
Or, anywhere else occupied by humans.
“They’re aging and dying.”
—–
We can only hope! And also hope they aren’t indoctrinating a whole new generation of hating bigots who think they are doing god’s will.
I trust her but before I go to bed she and I will go out together and find someplace out of the wind…
==============
I believe I will be doing the same this evening.
Stay warm ya’ll! I’ve got work to do.
“I love that they base their bigotry on the same bible and the same theology that were used to keep them in chains.”
—————-
And all the wise libs nodded their heads sagely.
They did now know, of course, what words they were agreeing to. But it sounded tolerant and inclusive. And it sounded politically correct.
What more could one want?
Perhaps the truth?
now = not
So, outlander, your truth allows you to be superior to another human? Your truth allows you to be judgmental? Your truth allows you to decipher ambiguity in the Bible? Your truth allows you to know that words translated many times by infallible men aren’t changed? Your truth allows you to decide what is truth?
CORRECTION! There has never been an infallible man. So I should have said ‘man’ who we know isn’t infallible.
“I’ll likely not live long enough to see it.”
Well, I wouldn’t lose hope if I were you.
Consider this:
As whackaloon and nasty as those people are, SOME of them have a practical streak.
Soon, perhaps very soon, they are gonna have to get real careful choosing their battles.
For fear of losing them all?
We begin to see this already. Some Christian cons are coming to see good stewardship of the Earth and TRULY pro life activities as a better bet than 25 years wasted trying to outlaw what they don’t like with little return on investment.
As the first few layers of the more reasonable peel away, the remaining ranks will begin to get a sense of how hopeless their situation is. I think they will regret the foolish battles of the past as they are increasingly faced with stuff that REALLY scares them.
There does appear to be a ‘bobble-head’ lib convention going on.
Linda,
That comment was from outlander. Correcting him is a waste of time.
Some deluded people simply don’t want any help. It’s their right to refuse it.
Steven, it was a correction to my post! I make lots of errors and need many corrections. It’s a good thing when I find them before someone else does. ;-)
I’ve enjoyed this convention. Even the background noise from I D 1 0 Ts did not detract from it. Signing off for now. See you later.
#
lindainks55
Posted December 14, 2008 at 7:54 pm | Permalink
So, outlander, your truth allows you to be superior to another human? Your truth allows you to be judgmental? Your truth allows you to decipher ambiguity in the Bible? Your truth allows you to know that words translated many times by infallible men aren’t changed? Your truth allows you to decide what is truth?
————–
Your words Linda. I think they call that” projection”, don’t they?
The most dangerous, and sick people in the world are those who think they are doing something in the name of god. Any god.
Sick bastards all who claim to know the mind of god.
As far as outlander’s beliefs and convictions — they are his and I would never presume to know what is best for him. Nor would I ever understand convictions based around hate.
Agreed Steven, and I’m outa here too. Good to see you too Linda and Jay. You are good folks.
More?
Consider the majority of the cons that post here.
I can’t think of ONE of the hard heads that I would even WANT on my side. They’re a liability in a fight.
outlander,
Do you believe that it’s okay for people like Sen Inhofe, Dennis Avery, and David Deming to lie?
Now, that said?
The hard heads should know something.
I was wrong.
SOME Republican, scratch that, Conservative trending folks can be good people. I’m not gonna name names of the ones that post here.
Privately, they tell me that they don’t know what they are gonna do with you hard heads and hard hearts.
Cosmos, you sure have been looking hard for someone to play with today.
Why do you think that anyone who disagrees with the AGW orthodoxy is lying?
Well, outlander, what is the opposite of truth? Are there shades? If what you state isn’t truth does it have to be the opposite? If it’s only an interpretation does that make a difference? How about if it’s a conviction?
Linda: That post is just way too vague to address. Other than to say that, as we all know, everything is not black and white.
outlander posted December 14, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Why do you think that anyone who disagrees with the AGW orthodoxy is lying?
——————–
Because they are lying. For example, Inhofe and Avery falsely list scientists as supporting their AGW denial, when those scientists actually AGREE with the AGW theory. And Avery refused to unlist those scientists.
Why do you think that their lying is not lying?
Fair enough! I’ll take shades and everything isn’t black or white. I don’t think someone needs to be wrong.
That’s what I thought. Good night Cosmos. Sleep tight.
outlander,
So you cannot refute the fact that Inhofe and Avery lied?
And you think that it is okay for them to lie?
Okay. . . whatever.
Nothing to do with hate as stated here over and over. Common sense prevails for some.
Iowa is facing a court facedown about same sex marriage and the following come from the hearing on Friday.
“Lapier notes that a member of the court asked the pro-homosexual attorney what would happen in terms of polygamy and incestuous marriage if the court ruled in favor of homosexual marriage.
“The plaintiffs simply could not satisfactorily answer that question, which means that there is a great risk that if they open up the doors to same-sex marriage in Iowa, there’s no telling what they’re opening up their doors to next,” he contends.”
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=350948
This is the concern of many. It is not the black and white picture the left would like to believe it is.
WHY does outlander believe that Sen. Inhofe (R-Oil) is an honest, credible person?
‘Inhofe recycles long-debunked denier talking points — will the media be fooled (again)?‘
http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/11/inhofe-morano-recycles-long-debunked-denier-talking-points-will-the-media-be-fooled-again/
farmgirl you know they pulled that on the gay man who was winning the boe seat this year too. Kathy Martin is scum.
But scum is also the ones who changed their votes because he was gay.
“The plaintiffs simply could not satisfactorily answer that question, which means that there is a great risk that if they open up the doors to same-sex marriage in Iowa, there’s no telling what they’re opening up their doors to next,” he contends.”
So if we’re going to use an irrational slippery slope argument to deny consenting adult basic civil rights, shouldn’t we insist on banning interracial marriage? And interfaith marriages?
That sword cuts both ways, but it’s a wild, blind swing in either direction.
I prefer being pro-family instead.
Rage why when legal problems with changing the definition of marriage comes up does the left go ridiculous on us. Show me anywhere in any document that defines civil rights that says same sex members have the right to have a legally recognized marriage.
Show me anywhere in any document that defines civil rights that says same sex members have the right to have a legally recognized marriage.
First Amendment (religious freedom), Fourteenth amendment (equal protection of the laws). There’s more, but that’s enough.
But I’m not going to waste any time with you, because getting you to commit to a logically consistent position is like nailing jello to a tree.
“The plaintiffs simply could not satisfactorily answer that question, which means that there is a great risk that if they open up the doors to same-sex marriage in Iowa, there’s no telling what they’re opening up their doors to next,” he contends.
=============================================
Please to note that this statement is not made by the Court… but by the attorney challenging same gender marriage…
There is NOTHING in same gender marriage that would even possibly open the door to incestuous or polygamous marriage… or any of the other favorite kicking posts of the ANTI-gay crowd….
TWO UNrelated Adults… consenting to marriage… Polygamous is obviously MORE than two… incestuous is definitely RELATED
Rage what does freedom of religion have to do with same sex marriage. Nothing in the current definition of marriage denies anyone protection under the law.
Trying to demean my input to elevate yours is a cheap shot and I thought below you.
Rage, perhaps you should include “FREEDOM OF SPEECH” in that First Amendment citation as well as “frreedom of religion”.
Rage — “freedom of speech” in relation to marriage is a new angle I have been working on recently. And I think it might have a few merits to it….
Rage what does freedom of religion have to do with same sex marriage.
I wasn’t demeaning you. I simply stating the obvious.
Once again, there is no such thing as “sex-sex marriage.” There is simply marriage, and, unless you’ve been living in an isolation chamber, you know that millions of persons oppose allowing this contract to such persons because of their religious beliefs, and other nonsense propagated by fundamentalist preachers. Facts are not considered relevant.
Equal protection is an equally obvious issue. The state has to have, at minimum, a rational basis for denying this civil contract to consenting adults. No rational reason has ever been given (including by you).
As a single person, maybe I should demand that government stop granting special rights to married people. While I’m willing to tolerate the yada-yada about preserving families, if it’s subject ot arbitrary discrimnation, why should I bother?
Freedom of speech, huh? As in, if you want your marriage to ‘work,’ you’ll bite your tongue sometimes?
You know I don’t care who gets married as long as they’re adults. I don’t see a whole slew of brothers and sisters wanting to marry except in weird cults. I don’t care if consenting polygamists wish to marry. IT doesn’t affect us, so let them.
Rage — “freedom of speech” in relation to marriage is a new angle I have been working on recently. And I think it might have a few merits to it…
Interesting. Drop me an email. I think civil rights attorneys will be inclined to go with the slam dunks, but it can’t hurt to consider it.
Once again, there is no such thing as “sex-sex marriage.”
Whoops, typo, or Freudian slip? ;-)
(((bobble, bobble)))
From the Alliance Defense Fund >>>>
“Statement of Faith
————————————————–
We believe the Bible to be the inspired, infallible, authoritative Word of God.
We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We believe in the deity and humanity of Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, in His present rule as Head of the Church and in His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful men regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
We believe that all those who die in God’s grace through faith are assured eternal salvation; those who die in a state of sin and unbelief suffer the punishment of Hell.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ, with equality across racial, gender, and class differences.”
http://www.alliancedefensefund.org
RECORD EVENT REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DENVER CO
616 PM MST SUN DEC 14 2008
…NEW RECORD LOW TEMPERATURE IN DENVER FOR DECEMBER 14TH…
THE TEMPERATURE AT DENVER INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT PLUNGED TO -15
DEGREES AT 552 PM. THIS IS A NEW RECORD LOW FOR THIS DAY…BREAKING
THE OLD RECORD OF -14 DEGREES SET IN 1901.
Where is global warming when you really need it?
And baby it’s cold outside….12*F
Where is global warming when you really need it?
In the wild swings of weather patterns, predicted over 20 years ago.
Rage I think what came out in the Iowa argument is what I have been stating. I don’t care who marries who. I do care about opening the door to whatever anyone might consider marriage to be. That is what would happen as insinuated in the Iowa court. This would raise all sorts of legal problems as many would step up and claim the right to ‘marry’.
I think the answer might be to take away the perks of being married as Ben as asserted. This would put marriage where it belongs. In the church is that if where you want it or in a civil ceremony in your backyard if that is your choice.
#
Rage
Posted December 14, 2008 at 10:13 pm | Permalink
Where is global warming when you really need it?
In the wild swings of weather patterns, predicted over 20 years ago.
——————————–
What wild swings?
I remember the weather of the 1950/60s and it was awful.
Blistering heat, blizzards and ice storms with ice inch deep.
But do carry on with Henny Penny arm flailing.
Rage — You got mail…. :-)
Seeing the pictures back east reminded me of the ice storm here almost 3 years ago. Thank goodness we live in an area with buried utilitiy lines. Others in our family not so lucky moved in for a couple of weeks until they power was restored. Add in a niece who wed on the 9th of January that year and 8 out of town relatives that had to stay with us because there were no hotel rooms available. The night before the wedding we had 23 in our house. Sleeping bags and lots of floor space. I sure have sympathy for those cold tonight.
I’m ready for a little of that global warming too.
KFG — not ignoring you… ball game on TV, plus reading some web sites… What you said upthread about biting one’s tongue might well be one factor…. lol
Homosexual marriage is an oxymoron, and the term is even queer.
It ain’t gon’a happen.
Society can define secular marriage by law, and has, as the majority of society determines based on the benefits to society, and grant benefits to the marriage, or not, as it determines. Most states have done so, we are living in one, thank God.
Reg I remember always ice skating on the farm ponds while growing up. They haven’t been frozen deep enough to do that much lately. We used to do that all winter long.
PLEASE REMEMBER: The Church neither issues, nor approves a marriage license. The Church role is only to bless a marriage as either a Sacrament, or as a Rite of the Church.
Marriage has ALWAYS been administered by the State in the history of this country, as well as many other countries.
Uhm, first it was not the court, but the counselor arguing against the gay folks.
Secondly, if the unqualified slippery slope argument is valid, then allowing mixed-marriages in the 60’s should produced incestuous bestial pedophilic polygamy by now.
But in truth, every case is different. Polygamists will have to overcome the Supreme Court’s decision in Reynolds v. US but, if they do, if will be quite independent of anything decided regarding gay people. And there some society of incest out there? They’re on their own.
Generally speaking, it’s completely nuts to argue that something as noncontroversial as allowing consenting adults to marry (and that’s all that’s being argued)would lead to all kinds of weird things following.
I think it’s easier to give new weddings the force the law than stripping those benefits from existing couples, and, considering the societal disruption that would result from what you’re suggesting (as opposed to absolutely none in the alternative), I would have a hard time pushing hard for such a position.
I think I’ll just take KFG’s suggestion, and refuse to attend weddings until the stupid discimination is rectified.
“I think I’ll just take KFG’s suggestion, and refuse to attend weddings until the stupid discimination[sic] is rectified.”
Oh Hell No!!! Is that ever a threat we can’t live with!
I wonder if kfg got married to her partner if I would have to wear a dress or would a pant suit do?
Perhaps a tux top and kilt?
Should I bring flowers or a wine with a nice bouquet.
Partial to meat gifts myself, a nice Virginia spiral ham on a silver plate platter.
P.S. If you’re suggesting “grandfathering” existing marriages, that would still cause a firestorm.
Marriage IS secular by Law. Religious groups only “bless” the marriage, according to their unique perspectives of how that marriage is to be “blessed”.
Marriage is not required to “benefit” society. It is to benefit the individuals who marry.
I think it’d be nice if people would stop getting married in protest for gay marriage. I wish I’d had thought about it before my own wedding. When America is nothing more than cohabitants, then maybe we can claim equality- although I’m rather sure that’s not the direction the religious right wanted to go…. considering they keep making all these pro-marriage policies- irregardless of wehther or not its good for certain people.
Rage if it were as simplistic as you state that would be one thing. It isn’t. When have you ever seen a law change that was that simple. What you are advocating would place an even bigger burden on the over burdened SS system. Unfunded liabilities would be much higher. This is simply the fact. It has nothing to do with religion. Nothing to do with denying civil rights. Nothing to do with silencing anyones freedom of speech. It is purely and simply a legal issue.
P.P.S. If you’re suggesting “grandfathering” existing marriages, that would still cause a firestorm.
. . .particularly since some gay couples have been waiting for decades.
Also, as a practical matter, wouldn’t we need to some legal structure for couples to handle basic issues, whether they’re married or not?
Why does it matter what anyone wears to their weddings? Some people have been married in wetsuits, flight suits, their military uniforms…
You’d give the same kind of gifts you’d give to straight couples…except make sure towels say “hers and hers”.
If the money is what you’re worried about then you’d be all for divorces and straight couples abstaining from marriage and cohabitating. But shoot, you don’t even have to WANT to be married to be considered common law married as a straight couple.
“Generally speaking, it’s completely nuts to argue that something as noncontroversial as allowing consenting adults to marry (and that’s all that’s being argued)would lead to all kinds of weird things following.”
Rage,
Obviously it is controversial as is witnessed by the vast number of states that forbid gay marriage. The vast majority of people want marriage to remain as it always has been defined.
Pmom people aren’t getting married in droves. Haven’t you looked at the latest numbers? Like it or not the majority of Americans have said they don’t want SS marriage. If prop 8 could pass in California, the most liberal state in the US, why do you think it would ever be the will of the people.
Now I have a problem with the fact that Nativity Scenes have been outlawed in many public places. The majority of AMericans want them. So why the ban?
We all want something and we won’t all get it. That’s life.
What you are advocating would place an even bigger burden on the over burdened SS system.
I’m not even sure that’s true of heterosexual marriages, but it’s self-evident that if it’s true of one, then it is of the other.
One might as well say that no one can get married after Jan 1, 2009. It would make as much sense.
Yet, for reasons yet unexplained, it’s limited to gay people.
How in the hell would gay couples stress the Soc. Sec. system anymore than hetero couples??
Answ: IT WOULDNT.
Boxlock20 posted December 14, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Where is global warming when you really need it?
And baby it’s cold outside….12*F
——————–
okobserver posted December 14, 2008 at 10:18 pm
I’m ready for a little of that global warming too.
——————–
Who told you that AGW would prevent winter cold spells in 2008?
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.B.lrg.gif
Cosmos I hope you didn’t get out of a warm bed for that one.
Cosmos, if I understand correctly, AGW will possibly cause various spikes in weather conditions… And, I think it needs be stated yet AGAIN: AGW is not “weather” conditions.
I think you are coming up with any reason you can grm to oppose gay marriage. You’re making the argument fit your belief. Rage soundly shot your first one down, and now you’re working on another reason which is exact opposite of what you said you thought earlier.
I don’t care if the majority wants to kick another group, it doesn’t mean it should be legal. Just admit you dislike gays. Its not that hard.
Just admit that you want your religion to rule.
Then you don’t have to try to justify it. And nobody can argue it.
But it hasn’t always been defined that way box. Marriage is not a christian institution. And you shouldn’t get to dictate the rights of others.
I guess I could start asking your people be persecuted and ousted.
Rage are you aware of how acturarial tables work. They would take todays numbers and run those out to figure the liability for the years to come. It is much more complicated than that of course. But if you take an entirely new class of people and add them to this table which is what you are advocating then the unfunded liabilities are increased.
This is only one problem I see for the future. My take though is that the argument isn’t making headway except on this blog. The people have voted over and over and the answer is ‘no we don’t want SS marriage’. Whatever their reasons they have the right to vote on a law change.
Political_mama
Posted December 14, 2008 at 10:40 pm | Permalink
I think you are coming up with any reason you can grm to oppose gay marriage. You’re making the argument fit your belief. Rage soundly shot your first one down, and now you’re working on another reason which is exact opposite of what you said you thought earlier.
Political_mama
Posted December 14, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Permalink
I don’t care if the majority wants to kick another group, it doesn’t mean it should be legal. Just admit you dislike gays. Its not that hard.
Just admit that you want your religion to rule.
Then you don’t have to try to justify it. And nobody can argue it.
——————-
Why are you so judgemental. Just say you don’t like Christians. Be brave just spit it out.
Rage didn’t shoot down any argument I made that I can see. No, I don’t hate gays. Sorry to disappoint you. The hate tonight seems to be coming from the left.
Rage are you aware of how acturarial tables work. They would take todays numbers and run those out to figure the liability for the years to come.
Yep. And the numbers of heterosexual marriages in the next decade would dwarf even the highest estimates of gay marriages by a factor of nine.
It’s a profoundly weird argument to use against gay people, unless you were already against marriage in the first place.
okobserver posted December 14, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Cosmos I hope you didn’t get out of a warm bed for that one.
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That’s your response to a graph showing, as the AGW theory predicted, temperatures rising more rapidly in the Northern latitudes? LOL!
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.B.lrg.gif
I don’t like fundamentalist christians. See, its easy.
Why are you so judgemental. Just say you don’t like Christians. Be brave just spit it out.
Uhm, right. Nice red herring.
Rage not a winnable argument for either of us. So I’m taking it to bed. Stay warm!
Rage not a winnable argument for either of us. So I’m taking it to bed. Stay warm!
It’s in the 40s here. I’ll be okay!
Chas,
Yep, no single severe weather event can be blamed on AGW. But AGW does increase the chance of those severe events occurring.
And “climate” is generally defined as a 30-year average of the weather.
cosmos,
I’ve never known anyone that kept their shorts all bunched up in a wedgie like you do over something you have absolutely no control or influence over.
If you want to do something about CO2 fine, then turn your furnace off tonight as I’m sure it will be running a lot and expelling CO2.
Come on fella….put your actions where your mouth is for once.
Ummmm that would depend on what type of furnace Cosmos has….
Ah cosmos,
Don’t turn your furnace off tonight, it’s not going to make any difference, and who would I have to stack it on if you freeze.
But I did want to point out the futility of changing very much of anything, we do what we have to do and that includes burning fossil fuels.
Boxlock20,
How will covering my passive solar heat system reduce CO2 emissions?
And humans are causing AGW with our GHG emissions. We can reduce our “influence” by rapidly reducing our GHG emissions.
Heh
Gay people are the only people who WANT to me married.
Heh be not “me”.
Though I WAS flattered by kfg’s offer.
Sheesh Billy Ray Cyrus narrating on the History Channel?
I risk losing IQ points even watching.
good night; good luck; god bless —
whatever you conceive god to be!!
blessings ALL!!
Special Blessing on the homeless in the cold…
so mote it be!!
Boxlock20 posted December 14, 2008 at 11:12 pm
But I did want to point out the futility of changing very much of anything, we do what we have to do and that includes burning fossil fuels.
———————————–
What are the fossil-fool humans going to do when they run out of those “fossil fuels”?
Answer: Switch to the cheaper solutions — higher energy efficiency, and renewables.
Just a few people on Earth attempting to stop anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is “futile”.
But if most people on Earth try to stop AGW, it will not be futile.
Hmmm…
Bill Ray Cyrus is narrating about union coal labor. He SEEMS positive.
So, why the hell is he singing at concerts that make Sean Hannity money?
Chas,
Bless you for blessing the homeless people in the cold. Fortunately, there is a homeless overflow shelter system in place. Downtown churches each take about a month & provide a place for cots/blankets and supper & b’fast each day the shelter is at a given church. During December, the overflow shelter is at St. Paul’s UM Church, 13th & Broadway. There is transportation provided from certain places downtown to that month’s shelter. One of the places where people can get the transportation is from the Homeless Drop in Center which stays open until about 7pm.
Thanks for that Info, Jane… I understnd that First UMC has the shelter for January…
Reggie,
“I wonder if kfg got married to her partner if I would have to wear a dress or would a pant suit do?”
If you actually got an invitation to KFG’s wedding and didn’t have a coronary on the spot, I’d imagine that you could wear whatever suits you.
Me, I don’t get into a monkey suit and tie for anybody, including visiting royalty. They take me as I am or not at all. People who know me don’t have a problem with it.
Farm Gal.
“Sick bastards all who claim to know the mind of god.’
Given the difficulties presented by trying to communicate across a gap of more than 20-25 IQ points, these sick bastards must be praying to one really stupid god. They couldn’t begin to know the mind of any respectable deity!
“Gay people are the only people who WANT to me married” — from a B.J. post
“The IMAPP report surveys the results of a study published by Gunnar Andersson, earlier this year entitled “Divorce-Risk Patterns In Same-Sex ‘Marriages’ In Norway And Sweden.”
The IMAPP report notes that in Sweden, between 1995 and 2002, there were 1,526 gay partnerships contracted, compared to 280,000 for heterosexual couples. Five out of 1,000 new couples in Sweden are same-sex. Sixty-two percent of those are male same-sex unions.
The survey revealed a high rate of legal divorce among homosexual couples in Sweden. Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce within an eight-year period than were heterosexuals; and lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.
According to IMAPP: “Even among childless households, same-sex male partnerships experienced almost a 50% higher likelihood (1.49 times as likely) of divorce during the study period, while childless lesbian couples were three times as likely (200% higher likelihood) to break up as a married couple without children.”
Bebe,
I’m sorry you only have statistics; I have had some wonderful people in my life who taught me a lot about the beauty of diversity.
I recently went to the funeral of an 84yr-old woman who had been in a loving lesbian relationship with a wonderful woman for 56 years. They raised a wonderful daughter together, and her grandchildren were there.
A few years earlier I attended the funeral of another friend who had been in a lesbian relationship for 61 years.
These were women were my friends since I was old enough to know there were people other than my parents in the world. They did a lot for me. Were they role models? All I can say is I hope so!
I also wish the society had been evolved sufficiently in their lifetimes that they hadn’t had to live with the very real fear that the society would react violently towards their love for each other, as it did to so many other gay and lesbian friends of mine. Affirming to GLBT people their right to marry those they love would go a long way toward alleviating that fear.
So, marriage or non-marriage was a non-issue with them, since they were so loving and happy?
“What are the fossil-fool humans going to do when they run out of those “fossil fuels”?
Answer: Switch to the cheaper solutions — higher energy efficiency, and renewables.”
No, we aren’t going to run out of fossil fuels, they are renewable as well in time.
One day cosmos you will be fossil fuel and I think many would agree you contain a LOT OF GAS!
ksfarmgrrl, feel free to come out of your protective shell and give me a call at 316.689.8113.