The House is set to vote today on a $15 billion loan and restructuring plan for the Detroit auto industry. Democratic leaders and the White House have reached an agreement, but it is unclear whether it has the votes to pass. Commentator Joe Conason contends that one reason there isn’t more support for the loan is that the media coverage has been biased against it. He thinks the worst example has been media reports that autoworker compensation exceeds $70 per hour. “That $70-plus figure, which actually includes pensions and health benefits to retirees, grossly distorted what Detroit’s assembly mechanics receive in their weekly paychecks,” he wrote. “And it most certainly stoked hostility to those workers and the industry among Americans who listened to the crude propaganda.”
Conason noted that comparisons between U.S. and foreign autoworkers also are misleading, as some foreign governments provide health care, child care, pensions and a host of other benefits.
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65 Comments
It’s all those little extas that their govt picks up that makes it impossible to compete. And, it’s not only in the auto industry. Big part of the reason the U.S. has been in decline.
But, hey, gm’s wagoner is worth paying 27 times the toyota ceo income.
You can bet even with a stated 1 dollar salary, they’ll earn millions in stock bonuses.
The media has planted the seed. Great!
So let’s do this. Since you feel CEO’s are overpaid, in comparison even with Toyota and Honda.
Let’s reduce/modify GM employees salaries to be exactly equal those of the US Toyota and Honda employees.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Old neighbor got $40 per hour for “test driving” new GM cars. His co-driver earned the same for going along for the ride. Yeah, I think some changes are due.
Also, the big three are shining examples of why companies can not afford pensions and medical benifits to retirees. It is too expensive anymore.
“Put your money where your mouth is.”
Ooops. Scratch that.
Put MY TAX money where your mouth is.
I knew a saftey professional who worked at a GM plant, he made about 60K per year in the early 1990s. The guy hardly did anything, because he would submit a report, then it would have to go through management and unions which took about six months.
The rest of the time he couldn’t be found at the plant, but the golf course.
Yeah, they have a lot of cut backs they can do.
To be fair, the officers should be cut loose for driving the company to the place it is today. Bring in fresh blood at a lower bill rate.
To be fair, the officers should be cut loose for driving the company to the place it is today.
————
Absolutely.
The decision makers should be fired for their incompetence.
“Phantom
Posted December 10, 2008 at 12:52 pm | Permalink
It’s all those little extas that their govt picks up that makes it impossible to compete. And, it’s not only in the auto industry. Big part of the reason the U.S. has been in decline.”
The amount paid to the worker does not have much bearing on the quality of the vehicle, the innovation behind the design, the projected longevity it will have or the projected trade-in value.
A consumer buying a car is not looking at the profitability of the automaker, they are looking at the car itself. So, how do employee benefits and pay affect the ability for car makers to ‘compete’?
“SolDevVB
Posted December 10, 2008 at 1:20 pm | Permalink
To be fair, the officers should be cut loose for driving the company to the place it is today. Bring in fresh blood at a lower bill rate.”
Tell it to their Boards.
Each company’s Board of Directors could fire them today. Each company’s Board of Directors approved their pay, bonuses and compensation package.
Shareholders elect the Board. Do you own shares? Does your 401(k)?
Each company’s Board of Directors could fire them today. Each company’s Board of Directors approved their pay, bonuses and compensation package.
—————-
That’s why I say let them fail. They made their bed.
“Let’s reduce/modify GM employees salaries to be exactly equal those of the US Toyota and Honda employees.”
But will that be matched by the billions of taxpayer subsidies paid out to Toyota and Honda plants in the South which were given as incentives to move there?
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/12/10/regional_split_at_root_of_auto_vote/?page=2
Do you own shares? Does your 401(k)?
Not at present, but thinking about buying Ford shares. They seem to be the least vulnerable. And they make a better product than GM/Chrysler.
My idea was to force the big three to file chapter 11. Re-org -get officer pay in line and new officers- and drop the God forsaken UAW. Get the worker pay in line, no more benefits or life time medical. Contribute to 401ks for appropriate positions. When the UAW comes back, put their nuts in a vice. If a line worker is making $10 per hour and the union says they need to make $15, counter offer with $7.50 per hour. MI is #2 in unemployment. There are thousands of “scabs” that will work for $10 doing a job a trained monkey could accomplish.
With the banks we, the tax payers, now own, offer bridge loans until the re-org is complete. As per re-tooling, go to the bonuses for that. Take the money from the bonus funds.
Problem solved.
“He thinks the worst example has been media reports that autoworker compensation exceeds $70 per hour.”
From the New York Times:
“The $73-an-hour figure comes from the car companies themselves. As part of their public relations strategy during labor negotiations, the companies put out various charts and reports explaining what they paid their workers.”
When I was last in the market for a vehicle, I looked at all the big three offered, and ended up buying a Japanese brand. It was $3500 less than it’s competition and better featured and better looking, and has lasted for 10 years with no major problems, and looks good for another 10 years. Bottom line, they had what I wanted and sold it for less than the US brands. The really interesting part was that it was made in the Japanese city of Akron Ohio, by Ford Motor Company for Mazda. And it was better designed, better made, better warrented and cheaper than it’s Ford counterpart.
I have retired family who are UAW.
They pay ZERO co-pay at the doctor.
Zero for emergency room visit.
Zero for drugs.
When they worked, they were paid 3/4 salary from about Dec 15 to Jan 15 EVERY YEAR when the plant closed. What a life!@
Three uncles retired in their fifties! Must be nice!
Great retirement plan great benefits great healthcare.
Remember: Everyone is talking about “sharing” the pain. Workers,union,management.
They should all share in salary/benefit cuts to match exactly what the Japanese Automakers of America (JAMA) pay their employees/management.
Afterall: Those compannies are not asking for a bailout and have been profitable. What better business plan could you ask for!
Check out the number of American JAMA employees in the USA. It’s similiar to the Big 3, when you think about all the supporting industry:
http://www.jama.org/library/brochure_Nov2007.htm
Jed has a good point.
Just pick up Consumer Reports annual auto issue to see “RELIABILITY” “SAFETY” “EPA” “MPG” ratings.
My Honda Civic Hybrid is a 2003. Only 180,000 miles and going strong! Has been in the shop only once.
Only 180,000 miles and going strong! Has been in the shop only once.
———————
Those little bastards know how to build a car.
Toyota has been good to me. Damn good product!
I once knew a guy who worked for Halliburton for six months siphoning billion dollar gov’t contracts to them.
He now owns like six houses and made 6 million dollars a month.
Oh, yeah.
He’s also been Vice-President of the United States for the last 8 years.
The way to save the auto industry (and everything else) is to institute government single-payer health care like Japan and Europe have.
That’s a big part of the “70 dollars an hour” that UAW members supposedly pay.
The way to save the auto industry (and everything else) is to institute government single-payer health care like Japan and Europe have.
=================
No it’s not.
Here are a few things that those on this blog who wish to bust the United Auto Workers don’t know.
1. How wages of UAW workers compare with non union auto workers in the United States.
2. How wages of UAW workers compare with wages in auto plants overseas.
3. The percentage of a car’s total cost which is made up of wages, both here, overseas, and in non-UAW plants.
4. The benefits packages provided to UAW workers compared to the benefits packages provided to non-UAW workers both in the U.S. and overseas, wheather provided by the companies or the respective governments.
5. The percentage of resources that goes to management both in the U.S.A. and in plants that compete with the Big 3.
I could go on and on and on. As the old saying goes: “Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.”
I also suspect that there are few on this board with the brains or curiosity to find out any of the above yet many would support the destruction of another’s life based on the shit in their heads.
Get the Unions out.
Paying a guy $40 bucks an hour to drive around all day and also paying a passenger the same…That is the problem Capn’A.
I’ll bet Barney Frank knows, however.
beber
Posted December 10, 2008 at 2:23 pm | Permalink
I’ll bet Barney Frank knows, however.
————-
No shit, he knows everything about the auto industry!
Jeebus!
Bahney Fhank needs to remove Pelosi’s hand from his rectum.
“Here are a few things that those on this blog who wish to bust the United Auto Workers don’t know.”
Some answers, maybe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Adding%20It%20Up%20&st=cse
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_07/b3971057.htm
Here you go guys. As usual, everything you cons believe about the UAW is a lie.
Now then pension costs might be higher but when plants produce product for seven or eight decades, pension costs are of course higher.
Designing an affordable, good looking, reliable car would do great things for the American companies.
Yeah, Anti.
That one very questionable anecdote of your proves it.
What a maroon . . .
Long but worth considering: The OTHER American auto industry:
When GM, Ford and Chrysler pleaded their case for a multibillion-dollar bailout, the automakers’ CEOs told Congress that letting their companies fail would diminish the choices of patriotic Americans who want to buy American cars.
But buying a Honda or a Toyota or any one of several other “imports” can be buying American, too.
Many “foreign” cars built by the Big Three’s competitors are made in the U.S.A. — coming off assembly lines from South Carolina to California and providing jobs for tens of thousands of Americans.
“We make them here and they’re built by American citizens and increasingly we’re designing them here,” said Kim Custer, spokesman for the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, which represents Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu, and Subaru.
“In fact, 55 percent of the vehicles our companies sell here are built here,” he said. “More than half of our sales are products made here, and we consider ourselves part of the American auto industry. We have about 95,000 employees around the country.”
Honda, for example, has manufacturing plants in Marysville and East Liberty, Ohio, in Lincoln, Ala., and last month it opened a plant in Greensburg, Ind., that will employ about 2,000 people. Honda manufacturing facilities employ about 14,000 people in the U.S.
Another Japanese giant, Toyota, produces its Camry, Camry Hybrid, Solara, Avalon and Venza models at its plant in Georgetown, Ky., where it employs about 7,000 people. Another 5,500 work at the company’s plant in Freemont, Calif., a joint venture with GM, and 4,500 Americans work in its Princeton, Ind., facility.
Toyota will begin making its popular Prius hybrid in a plant under construction in Blue Springs, Miss., in late 2010, the company said. When the Mississippi plant is online, Toyota will have almost 21,000 employees in its U.S. manufacturing facilities.
European cars are also being born in the U.S.A.
According to a study released in September by the Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina, the BMW plant in Spartanburg, S.C., has pumped about $8.8 billion into the state’s economy and created about 4.3 jobs statewide for every one job at BMW.
Mitsubishi, Mercedes-Benz, Subaru, Nissan and Hyundai also have U.S. plants that employ American autoworkers. Volkswagen and Kia will soon.
“We refer to these companies as the new American manufacturers and the old ones as the traditional American manufacturers,” said David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich.
In 2000, about 50 percent of Toyota and Honda components were made in America. Now some foreign automakers are trying to raise their percentage of American-made components.
Honda has raised its American-made content in some vehicles to as high as 70 percent, said John Heitmann, a history professor at the University of Dayton who teaches classes about car history and culture.
“People should not discriminate against a product simply because it bears the logo of an international company,” Mitsubishi spokesman Dan Irvin said in an e-mail. “Besides, Mitsubishi Galants, Eclipses, Spyders, and Endeavors are built in the heartland of Illinois with a union workforce.”
But Japanese or German branded cars – even if they are completely made in America – will never be as American as Chevys and Fords in the imaginations of their drivers, Heitmann said.
“Our passion is for American cars, and that’s expressed in our car culture. Have you ever heard a song about a Japanese car in the United States?”
FOXNEWS
CapnAmerica
Posted December 10, 2008 at 2:37 pm | Permalink
Yeah, Anti.
That one very questionable anecdote of your proves it.
—————
What?
You said health care was the ONE solution.
“The way to save the auto industry (and everything else) is to institute government single-payer health care like Japan and Europe have.”
Remember, 270,000,000 Americans HAVE health insurance. 30,000,000 do not.
Don’t try to fix what isn’t broken. What you may want to do is have the unions tone down their ROSY healthcare packages and make the UAW pay copays and share costs: LIKE THE REST OF AMERICANS DO.
Geez, the solution for everything for some of you is nationalized healthcare. Will it cure homosexuality equality? Will it also cure the bank crises? Home mortgage crises? Will it cure AIDs? How about a bad case of the uglies?
(and yes I can connect healthcare to all of these too.)
If people have to pay a copayment, it discourages unnecessary visits to hospitals and drain on resources. It may also help to promote a healthy lifestyle – if people know they have to pay for their poor health choices.
But don’t fix what ain’t broken.
Hmmmmmm,
Capn’A must have caught the runs…
““Our passion is for American cars, and that’s expressed in our car culture. Have you ever heard a song about a Japanese car in the United States?”
FOXNEWS”
Nope, but have heard them about German cars.
(my ‘German’ car was made in Georgia (the Georgia whose capital city is Atlanta, that is). I think that is more patriotic than an ‘American’ Ford built in Mexico.
#
brian_nuevo
Posted December 10, 2008 at 3:28 pm | Permalink
““Our passion is for American cars, and that’s expressed in our car culture. Have you ever heard a song about a Japanese car in the United States?”
FOXNEWS”
Nope, but have heard them about German cars.
(my ‘German’ car was made in Georgia (the Georgia whose capital city is Atlanta, that is). I think that is more patriotic than an ‘American’ Ford built in Mexico.
——————————
I used to think American muscle cars were hot until my big block v8 Camaro got blown off the road by a Volkswagen Scirroco on the autobahn. :(
WASHINGTON (AP) – Senate Republicans say they have grave concerns about the agreement between congressional Democrats and the Bush White House to speed billions of dollars to struggling U.S. automakers.
Sen. George V. Voinovich, a Republican from Ohio and a leading supporter of the emergency measure, says it doesn’t have the necessary Republican votes to pass Congress.
Administration officials who were dispatched to Capitol Hill to sell the agreement got an earful of criticism from GOP senators during a closed-door luncheon.
The revolt came as the House began procedural votes on the package. Democrats are pushing to pass it this week.
“Paying a guy $40 bucks an hour to drive around all day and also paying a passenger the same”
You shouldn’t drive AND load the pipe. That’s dangerous.
You shouldn’t drive AND load the pipe. That’s dangerous.
————–
Fair enough.
It is also dangerous to get the beer out of the cooler in the back seat with out a co-pilot. So yeah, I guess $40 an hour is fair and safe!
“So yeah, I guess $40 an hour is fair and safe!”
Your UAW: Safety is job one
Others societies have not only health insuance but better national penions plans outside the union demands, thus making production more comptetive elsewhere by reason of less direct costs per unit
Fuggin’ cry baby union bitches. Getting paid for far more than they are worth is typical of our stupid, fat and lazy middle class.
We all deserve it.
It is important to remember that the wages and benefits won by the UAW are as much a RESULT of corporate greed as they are a mitigating force against it.
Those companies and their boards and shareholders wanted those workers on the job making cars and making THEM money. It is not the fault of the workers that the companies design and market crap that does not sell. It is also not the workers fault that the companies were as usual, shortsighted to profits today in balance to obligations going forward.
If the workers have to give up what they have earned in fair negotiation, the damned shareholders need to take a hit as well.
Of all the Detroit Three GM is the worst. Last time I researched and bought a new car GM didn’t even have an offering that made my ‘long list’; much less my short list. At least Ford was at the table.
GM abandoned the small car market; now they whine about the result.
Abridged letter from Troy Clarke, President of General Motors -
followed by a response from our son, Gregory Knox:
Dear Employee,
Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine
whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help
it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation’s history.
Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is
critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global
financial crisis………………….As an employee, you have a lot at
stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I
know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.
Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.
Troy Clarke
President
General Motors North America
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Gregory Knox,
In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a
bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and
please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North
America for me.
You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has
bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and
whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new “messiah” to wave
his magical wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time
allowing our once great nation to keep “living the dream”.
The dream is over!
The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while
management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same
time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid,
arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded “laborers” without paying
the price for these atrocities.and that still the masses will line up to buy
our products
Don’t tell me I’m wrong. Don’t accuse me of not knowing of what I
speak. I have called on Ford,GM ,Chrysler,TRW,Delphi,Kelsey Hayes, American
Axle and countless other automotive OEM’s and Tier ones for 3 decades now
throughout the Midwest and what I’ve seen over the years in these union
shops can only be described as disgusting.
Mr Clark, the president of General Motors, states:
There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and
especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of
bad management. It is not.
You’re right – it’s not JUST management.how about the electricians
who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on
them for countless hours while they drag ass.so they can come in on the
weekend and make double and triple time.for a job they easily could have
done within their normal 40 hour week
How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of
scare tactics.for putting out too many parts on a shift.and for being too
productive (mustn’t expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for
decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not
know about this stuff?!?
How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke’s sad plea:
over the last few years .we have closed the quality and efficiency
gaps with our competitors.
What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?
Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency
between us and them?
The K car vs. the Accord?
The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?
Do I need to go on?
We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the
United States auto industry for decades.
Time to pay for your sins, Detroit.
I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant
economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have
given the banks a penny of “bailout money”. Yes, he said, this would cause
short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark
would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day. and
something else would happen.where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new
efficient ones would pop up. that is how a free market system works.it does
work.if we would let it work.
But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world
is right and that capitalism doesn’t work – that we need the government to
step in and “save us”.save us, hell – we’re nationalizing.and unfortunately
too many of this once fine nations citizens don’t even have a clue that this
is what’s really happening.but they sure can tell you the stats on their
favorite sports teams.yeah – THAT’S important.
Does it occur to ANYONE that the “competition” has been producing
vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?…
How can that be???
Let’s see.
Fuel efficient.
Listening to customers.
Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul.
Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards
Deming 4 decades ago
Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma
plans.
Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like “the
enemy”.
Efficient front and back offices.
Non union environment.
Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn’t be telling
anyone anything they really don’t already know in their hearts
I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of
wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into
- my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their
age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts,
by the way) – I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the
consequences of their actions and work them through.
Radical concept, huh.
Am I there for them in the wings? Of course – but only until such
time as they need to be fully on their own as adults
I don’t want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there
certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of
parenting and government.
Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.
Bad news people – it’s coming whether we like it or not
The newly elected Messiah really doesn’t have a magic wand big
enough to “make it all go away” I laughed as I heard Obama “reeling it back
in” almost immediately after the vote count was tallied.”we might not do it
in a year.or in four.” where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for
the office
Stop trying to put off the inevitable .
That house in Florida really isn’t worth $750,000.
People who jump across a border really don’t deserve free health
care benefits.
That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn’t worth
$85,000 a year.
We really shouldn’t allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with
products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency
and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the
globe.
That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really
shouldn’t be living in that $485,000 home.
Let the market correct itself people – it will. Yes it will be
painful, but it’s gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my
proposal is that on the other side of it is a nation that appreciates what
is has.and doesn’t live beyond its means.and gets back to basics.and
redevelops the work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of
the world.and probably turns back to God.
Sorry – don’t cut my head off, I’m just the messenger sharing with
you the “bad news”
I think its hilarious when all of you want to bash the auto and aviation workers for their huge salaries and benefits. All of you posters must not realize that these people are the major purchaser’s of house, cars, healthcare and many other products that are offered. And you actually believe that the average worker makes $70.00 an hour, what a bunch of morons! I have worked in aviation for over 26 years, and I don’t make that much money, but go ahead and throw in my health care and what ever other benefits you might think I get……that are rarely used. Go ahead and bash GM, Ford and Chrysler, Its funny how they are getting raked over the coals about the bailout amount they are asking for, but no one said boo to the banks and financial institutions that raped the tax payer……..and the government just wrote the a blank check. Anyone had a bank do anything for you lately? While your sitting back slamming your fellow hard working Americans….just remember. We have a government full of lazy over payed “workers” that live off of your taxes, you pay their health care, which by the way exceeds greatly what ever you and I recieve and to top it off, they don’t collect social security…….because the tax payers pay their fatcat retirements for them, including health care. I got a great Idea, want to fix social security?……..put everyone from the president on down to you and me on social security only……with medicare. Want the tax payer bleeding to stop, fix the government. They bashed The top 3 for flying in on their company jets……..the government owns huge fleets of “private and commercial jets, huge SUV/s, limos and all kinda of luxury items. Why should the tax payers have to pay the bill for this? Wake up America……Enron book keeping runs deep!
Hey Mike, why don’t you tell us how you really feel?
“”Its funny how they are getting raked over the coals about the bailout amount they are asking for, but no one said boo to the banks and financial institutions that raped the tax payer……..and the government just wrote the a blank check…”
I said, “booo!” along with a few other million Americans. I told my representatives to NOT bail out the fat cat evil rich bankers. But they were overruled by the majority votes in Congress. The democrats (and many republicans) rushed the bill through BEFORE the public could shout “BOOO!”
And it’s nothing personal against you, your union, or the auto industry.
I just prefer to spend my money on a a Honda Civic because it has proven reliable, and has the best gas MPG on the market (well right behind the Toyota Prius).
I like spending my money on what I think is best.
I don’t like the government spending MY money on what it feels is best. Especially when it ain’t.
The big three are doomed, despite any handout.
I don’t have a problem with anyone spending their money the way the want. I’m just getting tired our our politicians selling us out. As far as boo being said, the American people were screaming NOT to bail out the the finance companies……it fell on deaf ears. My comment was to the politicians on how they have several different types of rules, most of which are in favor of them or their special interest groups. I don’t belong to a union, but have worked hard for what I have. I dont mind helping people out, but this government welfare system has to go…….that includes their own salaires and pensions they get to vote for themselves. Dem or Rep, none really give a hoot about the hardworking American people. Just think, keep sending all of our jobs overseas, then the tax revenue will plumet to an all time low. Then our wonderfull politicians can have what I grew up in during my childhood………third world countries. I’ve lived in them….things are looking awfully familiar.
If we reduced the pay of the regular employee of GM, Ford, etc., to that of Toyota or Honda it would still be pretty close to the same. Unless you are willing to accept single payer medical benifits in the United States. There is not the difference that a lot of uninformed people think. The big difference to the company is that they are not responsible for the medical benifits of the employee or retriee, that is a govermental benifit.
As Mike stated while is it that the Govermental (elected) workers, who work for us get paid much more than most of us yet they will spend 10 times what they could ever make in pay to get elected. I guess since it is other peoples money is one reason, but they will get a good payback from their backers after they leave office.
Now I agree with Mike on the bashing on Auto workers and especially Aviation workers. I retired after 29 years as an Aviation worker and I deserve my pittance of a retirement every month. I can only dream that I got a total (including all benifits) of $70 per hour. It seems to me that there are a lot of very jealous people out there. We just hapened to be the ones that got the A & P License, degrees and jobs. Overall we did ok, but we also were the ones awaiting the layoff notice (if it came), wondering if what we did would be accepted by the customer, etc., We were also the ones gettting high blood pressure and such other neat things like that.
Those companies and their boards and shareholders wanted those workers on the job making cars and making THEM money.
You are a complete and total tardo. Did the workers make money, dipshit? Did they get benefits dumbass? Is a company developed to lose money fucktard? Were they forced to work there brain dead?
My Lord you are an imbecile.
Go blow Jay again. He’s calling for you.
We see, from the actions of cons in the Senate, that their concern here is NOT for the companies or American workers.
THEIR agenda is to kill a union.
Since the early days of Reagan, THIS has been THE con driving force. Killing unions and subjugating worker rights and protections.
Just how has that worked out for anyone outside the investor class?
BEFORE Reagan, we were the world’s biggest exporter of finished goods. NOW we are the world’s biggest importer of finished goods.
People like solie, they don’t care about their country, the planet, or anything much but themselves. And they HAVE just about managed to completely make America and the world the playground of their own selfishness and greed.
We can only HOPE it is not too late not to chase these vermin back into the dark where they belong.
Well said, Jay.
Years ago I was offered a job in the ad biz.
The
little weaselhead of the agency tried to hire me away from another agency and said, “You’re worth a hundred grand to me.”Since I was making about $35,000 at the time — and it is the ad biz so my willingness to be a whore was long established — I said we’d talk.
So when we got down to talking about compensation, he pulls out this list of what the supposed “hundred grand” consisted of.
He itemized ever bit of overhead. Okay, legitimate things like salary, FICA, matching 401(k) contributions… but went on to include s#it like “We have free parking. If you had to rent a monthly parking place downtown, you’d pay $X-per-month (forget that my downtown job included free parking… and he added the figure he was not going to pay to the “hundred grand” I was supposedly worth to him. He listed the cost of the desk and chair, his utilities and rent pro-rated per employee….
And lo and behold he was right! He squeezed out the cost of every legal pad, every copier guy service call, the Christmas party… every nickel of business overhead and sure ‘nuf, I was worth “a hundred grand” to him.
But the salary he offered was something like $40 thousand. It would have been a nice bump but who would want to work with such an anal-retentive.
The whole “UAW workers cost General Motors $70 dollars an hour equation stinks of the weasel’s accounting. Only GM figures in the brake-assembly worker’s contribution to the fleet of hot-and-cold-running Learjets, the CEO’s condo in Aspen, a skybox at the Super Bowl and, y’know, the actual expense of building a car!
And then the CONs compare it with the average hourly rate at the Toyota factory in Mitch McConnell’s home state, and the Nissan plant in Corker’s home state, and the Kia assembly facility in Saxby’s home state, etc….
Torture the numbers long enough and they’ll confess to anything.
It’s pretty much always true when dealing with CONservative orthodoxy; if they couldn’t lie they’d have nothin’.
“The whole “UAW workers cost General Motors $70 dollars an hour equation stinks of the weasel’s accounting.”
Your story was nice, but what it has to do with the UAW workers and there cost to the company is tenuous to say the least. I don’t think the auto execs count paper pads and the other things you tried to show. They are paid too much for what they do. Period.
“THEIR agenda is to kill a union.”
The union doesn’t seem to want to pitch in. Unions are the ones who fought to keep Michael Vick in the NFL. Plaxico Burris from being suspended.
Credibility = Zero
The list does go on and on.
“Credibility = Zero”
Well, that is right where YOU live aint it fleet?
No one here has ever met you.
SO, you do your “fap,fap,fap” thing with yourself.
It’s the Solstice season and a time to be charitable.
I offer you the chance to meet me “fleetwood”.
But I am thinking I have already met you.
Care to prove otherwise?
“fleettwood” –
The auto execs most certainly have included retirees’ expenses in their equation. And for-profit health coverage they pay so their fellow CEOs in the insurance bidness can buy private jets. They hire lackeys to figure the per-employee cost of Post-It Notes.
And — just to keep your Wrong Streak Intact — the UAW agreed to salary concessions over a period of two years; the CONs agreed to that until they caucused and came back with a deal-killer: that the wage concessions hit by March 2009.
You can’t be so obsessed with organized labor to attribute every union’s historical tactics to every other union in the world. Otherwise, Walmart and Enron must be one and the same, shouldn’t it?
And everyone with a gun must be Tex Watson.
Deep down, you CONs are so shallow.
“BlueJay” –
I don’t think you should totally crush your WE Blog reputation by agreeing to a civil meet-up over lunch or coffee or a beer with individual CONs.
You should make them pick up the tab.
;^)
Workers made a deal with greedy management.
Now that management has failed, THEY want to take back on the agreements they have made.
Never trust people who make their living on the labor of others.
It’s the cons with the identity problem MH.
I only seek to…..help them.
I have met in person more posters than anyone else. I should think that those whose ID is in question would seek to be vetted.
I consider it charitable. Given their position.
“BlueJay” says –
“Never trust people who make their living on the labor of others.”
I’d say you’re right in that we should “never trust” them. But their contribution to civilization is not without merit.
To go back to your old days as a CON, “BlueJay,” “Trust, but verify.” Remember that?
Some of my best professional experiences in life have been when entrepreneurs. They have an idea or a product and need capital to make it happen and sometimes the Investor Class is essential to make it happen. Imagine how Steve Jobs must have felt when he tried to raise cash to produce a personal computer for the masses.
And Jobs and Gates got where they are by realizing they had a vision and there are plenty people who aren’t visionary but are logisticians who can realize the vision.
Thomas Nast was a wage slave, but as a cartoonist he created some of the most indelible imagery of the United States. That’s important.
We have Republic Party partisans as elephants slowly lumbering toward reality; and they never forget. And we got Donkey’s from Nast: ornery, stubborn, never afraid to kick the oppressors.
And Thomas Nast also gave us Santa Claus.
He might have considered it ironic but Americans have never been good with irony.
Take a look at Thomas Nast’s model for Santa Claus –
http://www.sijmen.nl/photography/philosophers/marx
Ho! Ho! Ho
Chi Mihn!“BlueJay” –
I suspect this will make you mad.
And make you laugh.
Go figure.
http://tinyurl.com/6azzbg
It’s about Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme.
‘ Toyota Camry is a car that is innovative yet has a broad mainstream appeal. This is one of the toughest tasks facing any automaker. The Camry is the one car rival automakers all wish they could build. It offers something for nearly everyone- performance, efficiency and space- at a price most Americans can afford’, magazine Editor- in- Chief, Angus MacKenzie, said in a statement. The Japanese car maker offers the Camry in various models- with a regular four cylinder engine, or a sporty V- 6 that enables it…