Alan Colmes (who will give up his sidekick gig on Fox News with Sean Hannity at the end of the year) wonders on his blog whether conservatives will attack President George Bush for his 14 latest pardons. He explains that conservatives “never stop talking about the Clinton pardons. I wonder if any of these will bother them. I mean, it’s not like these crooks were as bad as Marc Rich (in photo). All they did was drug offenses, tax evasion, wildlife violations, bank embezzlement, hazardous waste, food stamps, and the theft of government property.” Colmes gets to the real suspense, too: “whether Bush might decide to issue pre-emptive pardons before he leaves office to government employees who authorized or engaged in harsh interrogations of suspected terrorists in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.”
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Why would Bush pardon someone for engaging in torture if his administration says that it’s legal and that they’ve never done it?
This brings up the obvious constitutional question- can a sitting president pre-emptively pardon himself, or will he have to pardon his vice-president and then resign on Jan. 19th so the former veep can pardon him?
I never understood why this happens in he first place…why should any criminal recieve a presidential pardon? That should only be for those who have been found innocent of the crime they were convicted for.
Please don’t jail Bush. We want to hear him speak at the Sharon Springs Rotary meeting.
Magot has heard the Bush explanation of why there were no pardons for his administration or those enacting his policies. He is taking the stance that there is no need to pardon someone whom has not committed a crime. It often has been a game of semantics as Gonzales outlined in his memo,
“instead of calling them POW call them enemy combatants and they will not be covered by the Geneva convention”. And if you call water boarding which is recognized world wide as torture. “intense interrogation technique” it is no longer torture.
I would predict any concerns is for not as it appears that we the people could not or will not make a big deal about it anyway. When the question is to face wrong doing on our part or simply forget about it. No one has the stomach to face it. No American want to be thought of in such a light and to focus on the actions by the Bush administration would be to admit we are guilty.
So it is easier to take it this country is so overran by Al-Qaeda that your neighbor is a terrorists and need to be spied on. That any minute the man on the street is hiding a nuclear bomb in his pants so it is OK to do anything to the man on the street. That even if someone is innocent it is OK since we also need to find the guilty. And that innocent person is just the price we have to pay to find the guilty. Bin Laden’s goal was to destroy the American society. Our way of thinking about what is right and what is wrong. Taking into account what we have done and how we justify what has been done. One has to ask the question, has Bin Laden been more successful at his goal than we have at ours?
Is it possible that this tradition of pardons is just there to give the opposition party something to scream about? After all..in a country of millions of convicted felons, what difference does this make in the grand scheme of things. Yes, Clinton pardoned some truely despicable people…has that affected much of anything?
“That should only be for those who have been found innocent of the crime they were convicted for.”
Mary, just wondering, why would an innocent person need a pardon?
The idea of pardons is in a sense the last great hope of getting it right. The legal system does make mistakes, that is the reason for an appeal process. But even then the system does not yield well to admitting mistakes. Even if it becomes clear one was made and the convicted was in reality more not guilt then guilty.
Once in place it is for the most part craved in stone as it was with Ivory Hayslip. Rather than admit a mistake was made the state let a cop-killer go free. In their mind that was more acceptable then to admit a innocent man was convicted in a high profile case.
The stat I heard and it is not scientific, one out of every hundred convicted is truly not guilty.
But the one is the price we have to pay to get the other ninety nine who are guilty off the street.
I agree Mary! Why should any president have this responsibility / privilege? Where did this “tradition” begin? What sense does it make?
I would very much like to see cheney and bush jailed for the rest of their lives! They, and others in this worst administration EVER should be punished as the criminals they are! They’ve done more harm than any other criminal we could name! They are at least as guilty as Saddam Husein and he was hanged.
They are at least as guilty as Saddam Husein and he was hanged.
=============
Uh huh…..
Hittin’ the sauce a little early eh Linda?
Linda’s post gives us insight into what a steady diet of hateful liberal propaganda can do to reality perception.
outlander
Posted November 28, 2008 at 8:43 am | Permalink
Linda’s post gives us insight into what a steady diet of hateful liberal propaganda can do to reality perception.
———-
Well put, Outlander. Also, more gracious than my post.
#
outlander
Posted November 28, 2008 at 8:43 am | Permalink
Linda’s post gives us insight into what a steady diet of hateful liberal propaganda can do to reality perception.
=======================================================
Care to relive the Obama nonsense the right used in an effort to get McCain elected? A lot of sick garbage used by Republicans then.
Thing is, both sides put out propaganda, none of it right.
Presidential Pardons?
Yeah, Presidents give them…
Not much we can do about that…
Nothing to see here, move along…
Setting aside that Linda has been exposed to more information than just “a steady diet of hateful liberal propaganda”. No Bush is not as bad as Saddam but he is bad none the less.
In a war of ideology he has forsaken our (Americans) ideology and ignore laws that are the foundation of this democracy. He has acted more as a petite dictator would instead of the President of the United States. having done more damage to this country and what it is suppose to be then he has Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.
The gop reaction is predictable. Everything bush does is good, everything any democrat does is bad. Bush could grant a post death pardon Saddam’s sons and the gop would think it was all hunky dory.
Bush and cheney have caused far more death, destruction and harm world wide than Saddam could ever dream of doing. He may have been bad in his region, but he had little influence on most of the world.
Bushco, however, cant say that. The misery they inflicted while filling their own pockets generated a world wide recession and a world wide hatred of america. And not for our freedoms, either, as bushco wants you to believe.
The gop must be so proud…
It was placed in the Constitution to provide an ultimate avenue for mercy and justice.
“I mean, it’s not like these crooks were as bad as Marc Rich”
That is the key and it’s not a small thing.
Suddenly, the cons can see grey. But bleatwood, that passage was sarcastic.
“I would very much like to see cheney and bush jailed for the rest of their lives! ”
I’ll second that.
What do you bet that Ted Stevens (felonious Alaska Senator) gets a pardon?
But will the bush pardons extend as far as Mark Foley? Will Scooter Libby get one too?
That pardon pen is gonna get busy fast I’m thinking.
I don’t think Bush will pardon much of anyone. He never has.
Didn’t Scooter Libby already get a pardon from Bush?
beber – Bush has already pardoned 14 people. It’s probably an interesting bunch but I’m sure there is a main theme somewhere – white collar, white men and rich?
It’s probably an interesting bunch but I’m sure there is a main theme somewhere – white collar, white men and rich?
========
That Black rapper doesn’t fit your little view, now does it?
I view Bush as the biggest destruction of this nation. He is a traitor to the US. Wake up man, this guy is worse than just a little partisan bickering. You people took down a good president over sex. And you can’t see the damage your savior Bush has done? Get real.
“But bleatwood, that passage was sarcastic.”
Call it what you want, the point remains the same.
Comparing the Rich pardon and the Bush pardons only reminds us of the corrupt Clinton administration. Obama must be thinking, “What have I done”?
“You people took down a good president over sex.”
Sex? Is that what you call lieing to a grand jury?
Lying to a grand jury is the same if Bill Clinton does it and if Karl Rove, Dick Cheney or Scooter Libby did it – isn’t it?
Shouldn’t they all be treated the same?
Linda can have any opinion of Bush and Gang she wants to have. Bush and Gang tried to dismantle the Constitution in many ways but they never did completely destroy it – the American people saw to that when they elected Obama as the next president.
What is more interesting to me than these presidential pardons is what Obama will do with all those Executive Privileges that Bush and Cheney wrote for themselves. That will tell the rest of the story.
As far as I’m concerned the GOP tried to impeach clinton for a lot less than what Bush has done to our country.
“Lying to a grand jury is the same if Bill Clinton does it and if Karl Rove, Dick Cheney or Scooter Libby did it – isn’t it?
Shouldn’t they all be treated the same?”
I suppose so, if anyone you named was the President.
#
fleettwood
Posted November 28, 2008 at 11:46 am | Permalink
“Lying to a grand jury is the same if Bill Clinton does it and if Karl Rove, Dick Cheney or Scooter Libby did it – isn’t it?
Shouldn’t they all be treated the same?”
I suppose so, if anyone you named was the President.
=======================================================
What, in your mind all men are not created equal? Silly boy.
Mary_Caruso
Posted November 28, 2008 at 6:31 am | Permalink
I never understood why this happens in he first place…why should any criminal recieve a presidential pardon? That should only be for those who have been found innocent of the crime they were convicted for.
* * * * * *
Mary,
I met a guy who received a Clinton pardon. He had been put into the Federal system for growing over 100 marijuana plants. He was guilty and faced mandatory sentencing that no judge, or any one else, could alter. Clinton, not subject to the mandatory sentencing regulations, pardoned this guy, after considerable vetting of his case. [Bill had a half-brother who taught him how sneaky addicts can be].
This guy I met is now an MSW, he does counseling with people in prison, and works as an advocate for prisoners and more importantly their families, for a non-profit organization. There was no need for my tax dollars to keep him behind bars. He is not only no danger to anyone, he is doing public good every day.
It can happen, Mary…
Another way to put it Mary, some penalties are unjust. Mandatory drug charge sentencing is a prime example of that on the Federal level.
“But will the bush pardons extend as far as Mark Foley? Will Scooter Libby get one too?”
* * * * *
The last word I read, Libby has not asked for a pardon.
A Lot of pardons are done after the con served his time. Mostly it is mechanism that allows one to get on with their lives, they get all their pre conviction rights restored, voting, owing guns etc.
There is a common thread in some of Bush’s pardons… Many of them are formerly rich, white males…. no biggie…. BUT… they ALL had tie-ins to the 80’s Savings and Loan debacle… part of which Bush’s brother was involved with… not to mention michael milikan and john mccain….
I think Beber in this case is correct. Bush has pardoned realitively few people. I am not sure that he will be called upon to act differently now.
And there does seem to be some common thread in presidential pardons… Clinton’s pardons seemed to track along “legal” questions of unfair, or mandatory sentencing… with his legal background, he would have been well versed in that area…
Bush seems to be circling the “business” arena, as he came out of a business background, and has some(if little) expertise in those areas….
It makes for some interesting reading…. after a president leaves office…
Interesting distinction, Chas.
Steven — I have spent many winters in cold north country… reading is required entertainment… Politics can be most entertaining when it’s -40 deg. outside on a cold winter night… LOL
no biggie…. BUT… they ALL had tie-ins to the 80’s Savings and Loan debacle… part of which Bush’s brother was involved with… not to mention michael milikan and john mccain….
————————
What about the black rapper, Chas?
I didnt sy ALL of them… I said many of the 14…. I have no clue aabout the black rapper… sounds like you are trying to pick nits on that one….
I didnt sy ALL of them-Chas
they ALL had tie-ins to the 80’s Savings and Loan debacle…-Chas
====================
Yes Chas, you did say ALL of them.
Why do you hate white people Chas?
NO idiot, I did NOT say all of them… I said MANY of the 14… and all of those MANY had tie-ins to the S & L scandal… Will you PLEASE learn how to read???
Will you PLEASE learn how to read???
===========
I will when you learn to type.
And, ANTI, when did you stop beating your wife???
And, ANTI, when did you stop beating your wife???
=================
When she learned to be quiet. Last Tuesday, I believe.
Now, why do you hate white people, Chas?
Re: ANTI
DNFTLT
Re: Chas
DNFTDA
I have no clue aabout the black rapper
===============
Apparently none of you Libs do. A black rapper doesn’t fit well in your slander.
Chas
Posted November 28, 2008 at 12:35 pm | Permalink
There is a common thread in some of Bush’s pardons… Many of them are formerly rich, white males…. no biggie…. BUT… they ALL had tie-ins to the 80’s Savings and Loan debacle… part of which Bush’s brother was involved with… not to mention michael milikan and john mccain….
============================================
My typing is quite clear, numb nuts… I havent said ONE word about hating white people… I am merely looking at common threads…. And if you cant SEE that, and try to make up some imaginary posting of what I DID say, well there it is… exactly as I posted….
MANY of the 14 pardons…. and ALL of those MANY….
Now, move on…. there is nothing more to be said here…. just your stupid flaming of an issue that doesnt exist….
Obviously, there is an issue involved with the black rapper…. And, if you would look closely, I didnt post anything slanderous… just factual… in response to what somebody else had said earlier about the string of pardons, and what do they mean….
The black athlete that was pardoned, also doesn’t fit your little agenda.
Man you Libs are idiots.
I dont HAVE an agenda… Perhaps that is your first big error???
“BUT… they ALL had tie-ins to the 80’s Savings and Loan debacle”
————-
they ALL….
The ALL is clearly in reference to the MANY who haad the tie-ins to the S & L scandal… It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out… now stop your stupid flaming…
Chas, why do you not acknowledge the black people pardoned?
BUT… they ALL had tie-ins to the 80’s Savings and Loan debacle
==================
As far as now, one does not count as many. Only one was pardoned for involvement in the S&L scandal in the 80’s.
Better check that one again… I got my information from the same Alan Colmes piece that Rhonda quoted above… It’s also on Alan Colmes’ web site…
And… ummmm…. the black people pardoned were not a part of my post…. dimwit…. They would be a separate issue…. geez!!
Try as you might, it is not a racial matter… YOU are trying to make it one… I’m not…. I stand on what I posted….
I’d like to know how to get a Presidential Pardon. You know, just in case. ;)
Chas,
You did say ALL in the post above about the S&L’s. Take it back if you want, at least acknowledge the error and let’s move on.
To borrow from Tom Lehrer’s priceless New Math:
“It’s so simple, so very simple,
That only a child can do it…”
Chas, see here:
Only one is pardoned relating to S & L.
So far.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/washington/25pardons.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
I see there are some ACORN types here. They get their talking points from agitator groups or left wing blogs run by elitist Soros types. These neo globalists are the ones who engineered and profited from our current financial mess creating class warfare to solidify their power. They use these ignorant peons to do their dirty work training them right out of Saul Alinski’s “Rules for Radicals”. Personal attacks and hearsay rumor mongering are their tactics, so don’t let them take the subject off on a tangent and don’t get sucked into a tit for tat dog and cat fight.
At this time, people are applying for presidential pardons.
These are the steps if you are really interested, Pre. To be honest, I can’t even imagine how you might be interested.
http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/pardon_instructions.htm
I guess AP did not get the word about needing to be rich and famous to get a pardon.
“Last week, Bush issued 14 pardons and commuted two sentences — all for small-time crimes such as minor drug offenses, tax evasion and unauthorized use of food stamps.”
Chas gets knocked to the ground one more time….
Chas, what are the names of the ‘many of the 14′ pardoned that were tied to the S&L scandal?
Chas, you were caught in another lie..
“Chas, you were caught in another lie…”
Or, a simple error that anyone could make. Jeez…
Or, a simple error that anyone could make. Jeez…
—————-
Chas has admitted to no error. Jeez…
Anti,
Chas doesn’t acknowldege errors. Any other profound observations you care to bestow, troll?
Jeez…
Chas doesn’t acknowldege errors.
——————
Why should I cut him any slack, nancy?
Jeez…
This is the list of the 14 Bush pardons and 2 communtations. I don’t see any particular ideological pattern. It is interesting that 2 of the 14 pardons involved wildlife protection laws:
Leslie O. Collier, Charleston, Mo., pleaded guilty to unlawfully killing three bald eagles.
Milton K. Cordes, Rapid City, S.D., convicted of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, which prohibits importation into the country of wildlife taken in violation of conservation laws.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/us/25pardonlist.html?ref=washington
Note to Self: Never respond to a troll. A waste of perfectly good bandwidth.
I wonder if the inventor of the ’super ball’ will get pardoned?
That dude has to be responsible for more window breakage than the combined total of hail storms in U.S. History.
:)
Note to Self: Never respond to a troll. A waste of perfectly good bandwidth.
————————
Or you could try to not to justify the actions of others.
2 many 2’s, sorry.
here’s 2 more
to to
Chas,
You did say ALL in the post above about the S&L’s. Take it back if you want, at least acknowledge the error and let’s move on. [Steven]
I DID say ALL … but not with reference to ALL fourteen… only to those connected to the S & L scandal… And certainly I made NO comment about black rappers, or black female athletes… ONLY referring to the formerly rich White males, who had ties to the S & L scandal…
Where do you find my use of the term ALL relates to any but the S & L tie-ins??
I am not going to spend any more time on this flaming crap from ANTI and his buddies… Just following me around the Blogs, tracking this thing where it doesnt belong!! Geez!!! Blog stalking!!
Dear chas:
BOO!!
Chas when you make a statement you should be prepared to defend it. You post here often enough to know that is what happens. You were obviously mistaken about the S&L link. It was a mistake. Mistakes happen. Admit it and move on.
I think Libby’s problem is that there has to be an admission of guilt, before qualifying for the pardon.
Did anybody bother to read the Alan Colmes web site and the blog issues raised there?? Or did you just decide to flame ME for the hell of it???
I just heard this on the Radio last night… Now, if you want to prove me wrong, then the ball is in your court… For now, it suffices for me to say that the data is not all available YET…. Did I make a mistake??? Maybe…. but all of the data is not in yet… IF I made a mistake, I will acknowledge… If not, I expect apologies for the stupid flaming…
Why Chas would the Colmes blog be any more factual that this blog? Don’t be so easily led.
So, okob, you cant prove what I said to be wrong, but yet you see fit to keep on flaming, for no apparent reason… Dig it up… IF I made a mistake, I will acknowledge…
“…you cant prove what I said to be wrong…”
Chas, I must have missed the link you posted to show your statements to be true. Was that because you did not post a link?
The one link you did post did not mention the S&L people. Does this mean you cannot prove your statements to be true? Does this mean you started calling people names, for no apparent reason.
Donndublin LOVES the KoolAide!!! Drinks it by the gallon and has all the meaningless catch phrases down pat!!!!
“Donndublin LOVES the KoolAide!!! Drinks it by the gallon and has all the meaningless catch phrases down pat!!!!”
From what I’ve read of Donndublin, he’s got it right. At least you finally wrote a sentence. Alas, still no substance. No refutation, no nothing. No wonder Lib radio fails every time it’s tried.
To be honest, I can’t even imagine how you might be interested.
I was a Boy Scout– uh, a Girl Scout, and one must always be prepared. :) One never knows… LOL
Seriously, I don’t imagine needing one. Always curious though.
Unbelievable . . . most of Bush pardons are drug pushers and common theives.
Illegal food stamp acquisition! Dude, you’d think the CONs would want this one drawn and quartered.
“Illegal food stamp acquisition! Dude, you’d think the CONs would want this one drawn and quartered.”
Hyperboli aside, are we to assume that you people are all for it?
Answer: “It’s only fair”.
No, fleettweed, of course we’re not.
It’s just that for 30 years you CONs have made the “welfare queen” public enemy number one.
Now your poster child Bush has a chance to put the screws to one of them, and he gives him a pardon . . .
Lots of interest in the pardons granted by the current president. Interestingly, not much interest in the fact that Bush has granted fewer pardons, commucations, or reductions of fines than any US President most Americans can remember:
http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/actions_administration.htm
Less than half the numbers of Bill Clinton.
Commutations [hickup! Sorry, must be the Beaulieu Vineyards BV Reserve Tapestry 2004 kicking in]
Chas
Posted November 28, 2008 at 6:10 pm | Permalink
So, okob, you cant prove what I said to be wrong, but yet you see fit to keep on flaming, for no apparent reason… Dig it up… IF I made a mistake, I will acknowledge…
————-
Chass when you print something that isn’t true it isn’t my place to prove it isn’t true it is your responsibility to prove it is right. You can’t because it isn’t. Be man enough to admit you posted in error. Show us you can be a stand up guy.
“Show us you are a stand up guy”
OKobserver, you are talking about Chas, remember?
I sure hope you are not holding your breath. Even level headed liberals posting on this blog know better than that. Note Steven’s calm and cool attempt.
Chas is their juvenile deliquent, their stepson that they try to protect, but they have no expectations of growth from him either.
Anti is a troll. That is all he (maybe she) has ever been. Has he/she ever provided anything substantive to a thread? Of course not.
He/she has admitted to requiring attention like some/many trolls do? Absolutely!
He/she/it is a troll. QED…
My guess is that Anti’s penis is really, really small. Killers of defenseless animals, almost always have very small genitals…
Night, fukhead…
Anti makes fleettwood look brilliant. Very, very sad…
Anti = BDP…(Blog’s Dumbest Poster)…
Night, all…
good night; good luck; god bless —-
whatever you conceive god to be!!
blessings ALL!!
blessings on Obama’s new vision for our America!!
so mote it be!!
I will say this ONE last time….
IF somebody can show where I made a mistake by linking a number of Bush pardons to the S & L scandal, I will acknowledge making a mistake…. I am still waiting…. Nite all!!
The following is the Lib way to express thoughts:
“My guess is that Anti’s penis is really, really small. Killers of defenseless animals, almost always have very small genitals…
“Anti makes fleettwood look brilliant. Very, very sad…”
Night, fukhead…”
Oh, yeah?? You suck!!
“Anti = BDP…(Blog’s Dumbest Poster)…”
DavidB,
What took you so long to respond? Did you have to wait till your ACORN sponsor told you what to say?
Dude, you’re in way over your head. You should stay in the shallow end(open thread)or you might drown.