The Bush administration seems to be trying to leave a parting gift for anti-abortion groups by moving quickly to grant new protections to health care providers who oppose abortion, sterilization and other procedures. The proposed rule is opposed by top officials in the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission who say it would overturn 40 years of civil rights law and who complain that they weren’t even consulted about the sweeping change. Some doctors, pharmacists, hospitals and others also oppose the new rule.
Meanwhile, a growing number of anti-abortion pastors, conservative academics and activists are taking a different approach. They are “setting aside efforts to outlaw abortion and instead are focusing on building social programs and developing other assistance for pregnant women to reduce the number of abortions,” the Washington Post reported. Such efforts “reflect the political reality that legal challenges to abortion rights will not be successful, especially after Barack Obama’s victory this month in the presidential election and the defeat of several ballot measures that would have restricted access to abortions.”
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126 Comments
It’s a smart move, to focus the money and efforts on prevention rather than changing the law. As a Libertarian-Republican, I don’t think it’s the federal government’s place to have ANY say in abortion. Roe V Wade should have never been heard. If Kansas wants to outlaw abortion, so be it, if Vernmont wants to keep it legal, so be it.
Murder Schmurder, who knows what it is, personally, I do support limiting late term abortions. They all make me uneasy, but as a “Church” our only concern should be “how can we help?” Take in a mother, adopt a child, use the money you spend on lobbying to help young mothers keep the child.
People hate being told what to do, it’s like two magnets, pushing each other apart, we can accomplish much more with this approach, h*ll, people will start to listen, instead of have a knee jerk defensive reaction to us.
If abortion is between a woman and her doctor and her God, how then can the government require a doctor to provide abortion services as opponents of this proposal desire?
Those who say that abortion is strictly between the mother, her doctor, and her God would support leaving the government out of the equation and support this proposal.
“They all make me uneasy, but as a “Church” our only concern should be “how can we help?” Take in a mother, adopt a child, use the money you spend on lobbying to help young mothers keep the child.”
AMEN! That is why my family contributes to Catholic Charities (especially Gerard House and Anthony Family Shelter) and also help support certain individuals we know who are in ’situations’
On abortion I agree to an extent RFL. The Federal Government should keeps its nose out. But I feel that the State should be able, through popular vote, determine the legality of abortion.
As per contraception, I don’t want the Federal Government spending tax dollars on contraception, I fully support state funded disbursement of contraceptives.
bush is still a very dangerous man who surrounds himself with even more dangerous people. And, while everyone’s attention was on the election, WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN UP TO?
Here’s another story of bushco in his last months of office:
Administration Moves to Protect Key Appointees
Just weeks before leaving office, the Interior Department’s top lawyer has shifted half a dozen key deputies — including two former political appointees who have been involved in controversial environmental decisions — into senior civil service posts.
The transfer of political appointees into permanent federal positions, called “burrowing” by career officials, creates security for those employees, and at least initially will deprive the incoming Obama administration of the chance to install its preferred appointees in some key jobs.
more at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/17/AR2008111703537.html?hpid=topnews
On abortion I agree to an extent RFL. The Federal Government should keeps its nose out. But I feel that the State should be able, through popular vote, determine the legality of abortion.
As per contraception, I don’t want the Federal Government spending tax dollars on contraception, I fully support state funded disbursement of contraceptives.
===========
I agree, should be up to the states.
(sigh)
Every time I write on this subject no one addresses my logical arguments. They’d rather scream “BABY-KILLER!!” or “sell-out!”
No civil law can enforce a moral belief.
No, not even “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not steal.” There’s a legitimate civil rationale exclusive of any religious tenet that supports civil law.
The Roman Catholic Church may sure have a doctrinal basis for opposing divorce, but civil law has to deal with more down-to-earth realities than the Catholic Church. Ergo, divorce is allowed in civil law.
Civil law has always measured a person’s life from the moment of birth. There’s even Biblical support for this point of view, given the importance the Old Testament gives to the Breath of Life.
You kid doesn’t qualify to get a Driver’s License 16 years after conception, but 16 years after birth.
That’s just how the law works. It’s arbitrary.
It doesn’t make since if a cop can write me up for speeding through a school zone at 23 mph when the sign says 20 mph. But s/he can. It’s the law. It’s a law. It’s arbitrary.
Late-term abortions? Yeah, that seems a pretty drastic procedure. But I can’t for the life of me imagine a situation where a woman would carry a pregnancy for 8 months and 29 days and suddenly, as a lark, go pay for an abortion.
There’s gotta be a pretty big extenuating circumstance for that, if only that the woman probably isn’t good Mother material.
Life begins at birth.
If you’re gonna argue against that, don’t drag out the “traditional definition of marriage” when you choose to oppose same-gender unions.
You don’t believe what you say if it contradicts what you want, CONs.
And you say far too much.
And, seemingly, never meaning what you say (see: John S (for Senile) McCain the Third (for Shrub’s 3rd Term) during the 2008 presidential campaign) but saying anything you can come up with to convince the Limbaugh-tomized Masses they’re not the stupid bigoted fools they always prove themselves to be.
“As per contraception, I don’t want the Federal Government spending tax dollars on contraception, I fully support state funded disbursement of contraceptives.”
I can’t quite understand this POV. If you don’t have a moral objection to contraception, why would you oppose federal funding for it? The logical consequence would be more lower-income people not being able to afford contraception in states that don’t provide funding, resulting in more births (and abortions), resulting in YOU, the taxpayer, picking up the tab for hospital visits.
Also, there are doctors that oppose sterilization?? I can understand not wanting to perform abortion, but is there any doubt at all that sterilization is a decision that a person makes about his or her own body? I didn’t think that was a point of contention for anyone!
I can’t quite understand this POV.
It is my POV that we should have a very limited Federal Government and very strong State Governments. The States should care for their own while loosely coupled to the Federal Government. The more we can detatch from the Federal Government, the more power the States have. Texas has different needs from Kansas and Kansas from Michigan. Shouldn’t your voice be the strongest in your state?
“…there are doctors that oppose sterilization??” — Tara
——-
Same ones (along with pharmacists) who oppose birth control pills. I’m not speaking of the morning after pill, but the traditional “pill.” Some believe “life” is in the unfertilized egg, and in the semen. Unable to differentiate potential and actual, I guess. I must guess as there is no logic.
Some believe “life” is in the unfertilized egg, and in the semen.
================
Those people must believe masturbation kills babies.
What I still don’t understand about these anti-abortion groups is do they really think abortions were not performed before Roe vs Wade?
Do these people really think that just because there is a law against abortions that people will not find some other way to get their abortions?
Moneyhawk is right – government cannot legislate morals.
BTW – I know of several Catholics who have been ‘annulled’ rather than divorced according to the Church rules, but yet they had children together. I always wondered how that made the children feel?
Life is not always black and white – there is alot of gray and life is messy sometimes.
Those people must believe masturbation kills babies.
Soooo, I guess you don’t know any Catholics then…
I always wondered how that made the children feel?
Why would they feel any different? Because the church defines the two differently? My folks were annuled. I always just thought of them as divorced.
whoops, missed an ‘l’ => annulled.
Soooo, I guess you don’t know any Catholics then
==============
All but one of my buddies are Catholic in name, not in practice.
Heh we were all teenagers once!
Whatever people think or believe is their business. But as for laws it should be up to the state threw the people.
“threw”…..Hmmmm…
“mom” –
That’s why I call them “Advocates of Illegal Abortion.”
Because that’s what they are. They may not be aware (the Law of Unintended Results) or just be naive. But there has always been attempts by desperate women to stop a pregnancy. And no law is gonna change that.
So we work to make abortion safe, legal, and rare… and the CONs sream “BABY KILLER!!!!”
I’ve never known a parent of a two-year-old who hasn’t said, “They’re cute for a reason.” I’ve known a lot of couples who “wanted a baby” but never said, “I really, really want a 13-year-old!”
Parenting is a helluva challenge. Some folks aren’t up to the task, even if they happen to enjoy bumping uglies.
Seems to me any woman should have the right to determine she’s not ready for committing 18 years or more of her life to parenthood. Seems to me a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant should be forced to carry a child to term simply because religious zealots say she should.
Seems to me any woman should have the right to determine she’s not ready for committing 18 years or more of her life to parenthood.
=====================
She could just stay off of her back.
Frozen embryos should be allowed to collect Social Security checks, since they are unable to work.
Anti… you can stay off women’s backs for a change.
DavidB
Posted November 18, 2008 at 2:42 pm | Permalink
Anti… you can stay off women’s backs for a change.
——————
But I like piggy back rides…. :(
Tara, at the two largest hospitals in Wichita actually getting your tubes tied or a hysterectomy is tricky business. There must be a ‘medical’ reason for the procedure, it can’t be a selective choice. They are religion based hospitals.
you can stay off women’s backs for a change.
What? So only one of them gets to watch the football game?
“They are “setting aside efforts to outlaw abortion and instead are focusing on building social programs and developing other assistance for pregnant women to reduce the number of abortions,” the Washington Post reported. Such efforts “reflect the political reality that legal challenges to abortion rights will not be successful, especially after Barack Obama’s victory this month in the presidential election and the defeat of several ballot measures that would have restricted access to abortions.”
Well it’s about TIME!
It only took some of them what, thirty years to figure this out? How much in resource and rhetoric was wasted in the meantime?
Some believe “life” is in the unfertilized egg, and in the semen.
================
Those people must believe masturbation kills babies.
–
Remember the Monty Python song?:
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted, God get quite irate.
Abortion, tying tubes etc., are considerd medical prodecures with a decision between a woman and her doctor being the only basis for occurance. There are places in the world where it is not a political football, or a legal “fine point”, but they vote, raise kids and otherwise try to enjoy a robust and vibrant life. Oh…they’re all godless socialists I guess, meaning billons of people are condemned to everlasting fire and/or endless replays of evangelical sermons.
“There are places in the world where it is not a political football, or a legal “fine point”,” — sursum
——-
Another area where the “godless socialists,” (read rational minds) will prevail is embryonic stem-cell research. Once this president is gone America won’t have a president leading those who ignore the incinerator out back and convince themselves when they save a blastocyst from research they are saving a life.
“It only took some of them what, thirty years to figure this out? How much in resource and rhetoric was wasted in the meantime?”
How many abortions took place that they could have prevented had they been rational?
“But there has always been attempts by desperate women to stop a pregnancy. And no law is gonna change that.”
-Monkeyhawk
Last I checked, Murder is still illegal within the United States in fact it is a capital offense. This is the case despite the numerous murders that take place every single day. Does Monkeyhawk propose to legalize murder since people will do whatever they want to do regardless of the laws?
What about stealing? If people really want to steal Monkeyhawk’s car, they will do it regardless of the law. Make stealing legal. Monkeyhawk’s logic quickly falls apart.
In fact, the laws agains murder and against suicide, drug abuse, etc… are all examples of legislating morality. If the goverment did not legislate morality, there would be no laws. In fact there would be no government.
Using Sursum’s strawman argument against pro-lifers on the topic of abortion, People who agree that post utero murder should be illegal are also saying that all who have ever killed another post utero human being will spend an eternity in everlasting hell fire.
Or… they just believe it is best for society and have science and past experience to back up their belief. No theories of everlasting hell fire has anything to do with the idea that murder should be illegal anymore then the belief that the unborn deserve protections in a civilized, life loving society.
Beat that strawman for a while…
“How many abortions took place that they could have prevented had they been rational?”
How does a rational pro-lifer go about preventing abortions from happening in their state or community?
Correct, RFL, murder is illegal.
That’s why killing a lump of cells without a brain is not considered illegal.
It’s not murder.
BTW, Focus on the Family is laying off 20 percent of its workforce and Oral Roberts University is laying off 10 percent.
Sucks to be a religious fundo these days . . .
“How does a rational pro-lifer go about preventing abortions from happening in their state or community?”
——
Education, birth control, more education, birth control, EDUCATION. Certainly NOT abstinence only education!
RFL
Posted November 18, 2008 at 4:17 pm | Permalink
“How many abortions took place that they could have prevented had they been rational?”
How does a rational pro-lifer go about preventing abortions from happening in their state or community?
____________________________________________________
If you really want to help make abortion rare, RFL, stop blogging and contemplate your question until you have an answer.
Then go out and act on your conviction.
Otherwise, you are just blogging with no intention of helping make abortion rare.
You would be a hypocrite.
“If you really want to help make abortion rare, RFL, stop blogging and contemplate your question until you have an answer.”
Got brains, mxyzptlk? You make a statement without the gray matter to back it up. Nice work.
Linda offers the new ideas of education and birth control. These are indeed new ideas. So new in fact, I am sure nobody has ever heard of them. If only more kids even know what a condom was or how pregnancies happen. Yes Linda, that would change EVERYTHING!
The second choice is what the pro lifers should have been doing along. Changing Roe V Wade is probably not going to happen, so education, adoption and other choices make better sense than trying to kill doctors or bomb abortion clinics.
RFl’s sarcasm shows that he only wants to argue and NOT be a factor in helping prevent abortions.
RFL is pro abortion because RFL wnats to mentally mastur…instead of actually DOING something.
RFL – haven’t you heard of miscarriages? And before Roe vs Wade, don’t you think some doctors performed D&C’s as hidden abortions?
The only difference between then and now is that the abortion issue is out in the open. Abortions have been done for a long, long time before all this debating and I suspect abortions will be performed long after we are all dead and buried.
mxyzptlk,
Thanks for your sincere suggestions for how a rational pro-lifer can help reduce abortions in his/her community.
Perhaps you can write them all out one more time so that we can more easily determine exactly what those suggestions are.
TIA,
RFL
mom,
I have no doubt that infanticide has been happening for a millenia. Like murder and slavery.
All wonderful things for a progressive civilized society to eliminate altogether.
Abortion is indeed the Republic Party’s best friend. Given that the GOP has never seen a wedge issue they don’t like, abortion has to be their favorite.
If all the money spent fighting over this issue were instead spent in supporting alternatives it would likely do much more to reduce abortion than all the fighting is.
rfl,
“How does a rational pro-lifer go about preventing abortions from happening in their state or community?”
You could prevent quite a few abortions by providing comprehensive medical/economic help to single mothers and poor couples who find themselves pregnant. I mean real help, not just the broken promises and token aid anti groups currently provide. Of course you’ll have to overcome quite a bit of well-earned skepticism first.
RFL
I don’t know you well enough to say. I can’t know what are the roots of your extremely anti choice stance. And, unlike some on the other side, I’m going to try and stay away from judging it on my own.
What I WILL tell you is that abortion is never going to be illegal again. It just isn’t. It is unlikely that significant restrictions on abortion are going to happen either as they are quickly revealed as veiled attempt to…ban abortion altogether. Which, as I have said, is not going to happen.
The strategy you are on, for whatever reason, makes abortion an umbrella issue. And this very personal decision cannot be decided by fiat because each individual case is different. Further, not everyone shares your conviction or beliefs. And as I am sure you must know, you cannot print your convictions and beliefs on other people.
It sounds, so far, like I am winding up to tell you that you are fighting a losing battle.
That’s not where I’m going.
I hate to see such passion and effort wasted for nothing.
What you are fighting is the wrong battle. And you have had lots of company over a very long time. Here, you read of some people who are learning to take a different tac. Find out more about them. Lend your efforts there.
For you see? The battle as such, is never going to be won or lost. It begins again every time a woman finds she is pregnant without planning to be that way. Now there may be a few people encouraging such a woman to choose abortion. But I don’t think they have the passion, conviction, or frankly the numbers and resources that your “side” does. You can’t MAKE a woman choose as you would like her to. You CAN help her to choose as you would like her to.
Monkey I have two thoughts on what you have said. I’ll take a child from birth to 11 and give them to you from 12 to 19 anyday.
This is a subject that will never be changed on a blog. Contraceptives should be available. Publically funded if need be. Our children however shouldn’t be handed this without respect to parental input. If you can’t give my child an aspirin I don’t want you to have the right to give them birth control pills without me knowing about it.
There are places like Choices that will help a mother or family if they decide not to abort. There are lingering effects of abortion both mentally and physically that need to be explained before the abortion takes place.
I actually agree with BJ that abortion will never be illegal again but there should be more to it than just taking away the baby.
RFL; Nobody I know is for murder or the taking of a life. To adjudge truncation of a process, the same as murder, is a diversion from what I learned as a Catholic in cathecism class. Namely, that God breathes a soul into a fetus at the time of birth thus making it human, therefore redeemable in the eyes of the Church. This got around the arguments from those who worried about the unfairness when a fetus who does not come to full term, being sent to limbo because they had not been baptized…. never to see God. (I think that got changed last week). Anyway I find that reasoning along with many other things from an “absolute” authority, as nonsense when discussing a woman’s body. I do get angry though if abortion is used as just another method of birth control, for those who have the hardness to have repeated abortions need special mental and social support.
There are an awful lot of people on the “pro life” side who are there for dishonest reasons.
I know. I was one of them.
There are people who are truly pro life, like our own Mary Caruso.
In an effort to bludgeon the former and grow more of the latter?
Consider:
The right to choose is with us how long now, more than 30 years?
That’s more than two generations of women in child bearing age who have known the right to choose. The last of the women who had children without choice are grandmothers now.
Too? President Obama will appoint from two to as many as maybe 5 Supreme Court Justices. This means a Court that will uphold Roe v. Wade for the NEXT decade or three.
The prospects for banning or significantly restricting a woman’s right to choose are not just dim.
They are extinct.
“okobserver
Posted November 18, 2008 at 5:52 pm | Permalink
Monkey I have two thoughts on what you have said. I’ll take a child from birth to 11 and give them to you from 12 to 19 anyday.”
DITTO!!!!!
or as my mother used to say “bury them at 10 and dig ‘em up again at 21″
Good advise from your mother. I always tell parents when their kids are reaching the teens. Don’t worry at 21 they will find you are much smarter than they used to think and will actually choose you as one of their best friends.
Too? President Obama will appoint from two to as many as maybe 5 Supreme Court Justices. This means a Court that will uphold Roe v. Wade for the NEXT decade or three.
—————-
Is someone going to be handing out poisoned koolaid?!
I know Ginsberg for sure will be gone. Who else are you thinking of.
A quick look to wikipedia….
The median age of the SC in 2008 is 68.
Stevens is 88
Scalia is 72
You have to figure that in the next four years, at least two of them are going to retire or die.
“okobserver
Posted November 18, 2008 at 6:23 pm | Permalink
Good advise from your mother.”
Problem is – she was telling me that when I was a teenager!
:)
Is the “defence of life” platform from Christians a diversion? Are they are trying to divert questioning as to why they condon and practice cannibalism as a central theme of their religion? Non-Christians wonder why they do it, for it is a terrible way to worship in thir eyes. “Hoc est meum corpus….take this and eat for this is my body…take this and drink for this is my blood”. Lots of folks actually have to believe, under pain of sin, that taking communion is truly eating their god and for those little Catholic kids who could not spell “transsubstatiation” they knew it meant penance or failure on the religion tests, even if everythng else was spued back properly. That word means the actual, real, absolute, true transformation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, for to believe otherwise is a mortal sin…BIG TIME. Think about it, eating your diety! Funny base from which to discuss the sanctity of life.
Why must they be 2 approaches?
Many of the Pro-Life people I know participate in both.
They actively support candidates who oppose abortion and try to help women seek alternatives.
It doesn’t have to be an either or.
“It doesn’t have to be an either or.”
No it doesn’t. But attempting to mitigate abortion through legislation is now an utterly lost cause and so a waste in time and resources.
BlueJay,
An utterly lost cause?
I am sure that the Southern slave owners were trying to convince people of the same thing when they opposed slavery.
John Paul Stevens, 88
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 75
Antonin Scalia, 72
Anthony Kennedy, 72
Stephen Breyer, 70
David Souter, 69
Clarence Thomas, 60
Samuel Alito, 58
John Roberts (the chief justice), 53
Stevens has served the longest of the nine, and by next July he will have completed 34 years, than which only five justices ever recorded more. (He is threatening the record in this obscure competition, which was set by the justice whose seat he took in 1975, William O. Douglas, who served more than 36 years.) Because of his age and length of service, Stevens is widely considered the most likely to step down, followed by Ginsburg. Both happen to be judicial liberals on a Court that has four liberals (Breyer and Souter being the other two) and four judicial conservatives (Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts). The fickle Kennedy tends to provide the fifth vote in close cases, particularly those involving abortion, race, and religion.
http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/682zjean.asp
That’s not a good analogy Nathan.
Slavery oppressed some people and offended others. It’s end was the growth of freedom
Attempting to again deny a woman a right to reproductive choice is a restriction of freedom.
I like Mary’s suggestion of putting birth control in the drinking water. Bottled water is available for those who “chose.”
Abortion kills the unborn child denying it any freedoms at all, the largest being that of life.
It offends many people as well.
Your freedom ends when it hurts another, i.e. the unborn child.
If Abortion is murder has some claim. Why not proscute women who get abortions as murderers?
And if you want to talk about wasted time effort and resources. Do Troy Newman and Mark Gietzen change any ones minds by driving around in their truck and having their followers scream at people? And I doubt is helps their credibility when they have domestic terrorists in their organazation
“Abortion kills the unborn child denying it any freedoms at all, the largest being that of life.”
Nathan you can shout that from the rooftops and it will not change a thing. Have the last three decades taught you nothing?
The lack of reproductive choice made women second class citizens in modern times.
From the dawn of civilization and before, the lack of reproductive choice made women little more than property.
The fact of it is, Roe v. Wade was a step forward for women and so freedom and civilization.
Murder Schmurder, short of Jesus himself coming down and telling me that a little 5 cell ameba is a life, I’ll never believe it. I do however feel that a 3rd trimester baby being aborted is one of the most disgusting acts that exists. Therefore, in my humble opinion that’s where the line should be drawn. Both sides should sit down and hammer out a compromise, and make a blood pact to never bring it up again, so that we can stop this country from breaking apart due to so many other issues.
Again, even so, when I refer to “government” I’m talking about on the local level. We were never intended to have a federal government that played any role large enough that would cause us to even know it existed. THAT’S THE PROBLEM!
Our founding fathers learned from what happened to the Greeks, the British and the Romans, and warned against over expansion around the world. WE, in all of our infinate wisdom, have instead expanded within to an unmanageable level, and we WILL fall as all those before us have, unless we learn this lesson. I just can’t see Obama catching on to this, but the Repub’s aren’t much better.
I am curious BlueJay.
You claimed to have been Pro-Life before, did you not? (Or was it Republican or both… I don’t remember)
If so, why were you Pro-Life?
“Your freedom ends when it hurts another, i.e. the unborn child.”
But Nathaniel, the pro-death crowd doesn’t care.
The only thing important to them IS THEM, and that no one, not even God, shine a light on their self-centered sin. Even if another human loses their opportunity of the gift of life.
Nathan I don’t claim anything as to me personally that is not true.
I voted Ronald Reagan and a straight Republican ticket in 1984. That’s another story.
Yes, I was “pro life”. I’ll be honest and admit that the reason was I saw a baby as just reward (punishment) for people who were getting more sex than me.
I was still “pro life” when a friend of mine was involved in an extremely abusive and dysfunctional relationship. She was raped by her abuser and got pregnant. Knowing that a baby would give her abuser a permanent hold on her, I paid for my friend’s abortion.
It was shortly after, that I chose to be a father to a child that was not mine biologically. The mother of that child and I had a baby of our own.
I’m not sure when it happened exactly. But somewhere along the way, I came to know that a baby should NOT be a punishment and that parenthood is an awesome responsibility and tax on emotion that you cannot force on someone. Too, I saw the “pro life” community doing little or nothing to HELP the women who sought abortion.
That’s the condensed version. If it won’t move you (not picking on you Nathan, but it was you who asked) to abandon using law as a weapon to enforce your beliefs and actually do something helpful I have more.
Geez Bawks, don’t stain a thread where progress is being talked about with your narrow minded, proven shame.
In the Book of Genesis it is said that God “breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life”and that “man became a living being.”
Thus man’s life began as a breath given by God. And it is true that for each human being: life begins with an inhalation.
As soon as a child leaves the womb of its mother, the first thing it must do in order to become an inhabitant of the earth is to take a breath: it opens its little mouth and cries. Everyone hears it and is happy that everything is fine, it is alive!
Because as a result of this inhalation, its lungs fill with air and begin to function. And conversely, when we say that a person has breathed his last, everyone understands that he has died. Breath is both the beginning and the end.
Life begins with an inhalation and ends with an exhalation, and between these two moments, a long succession of inhalations and exhalations sustain the life within us.
A fetus is not a living breathing human being.
Case closed.
Be very very wary of any anti-choice groups who set up to receive government funding to convince women to keeep their pregnancies. They have traditionally used scare tactics, coersion, harassment, and totally wrong information to bully women who probably would have abortion being their best option.
Unwanted pregnancies lead to unwanted abused and neglected children. Birth at any cost is not necessarily good for anyone.
Just look at all the kids on waiting lists for good homes. Just look at all the kids in foster care. None of these anti-choicers are adopting these kids. They become society’s problem and tomorrow’s murderers and inmates.
Semper, if the anti-choicers will allow the woman to CHOOSE BIRTH in the last trimester for a viable fetus, and she can walk away from that child, I’ll meet there in the middle. And I do mean 3rd trimester. Not this 20 week bs measure of unlikely viability where the infant will have so many problems it shouldn’t live.
As long as the pregnancy is inside her body, she has the choice to decide. It is HER BODY. No doctors will allow her to walk in and say, “Let me give birth today or I’m going to go get an abortion”.
They give the only option as abortion.
Just be aware that society is going to pay a heavy price for all of that premie care.
I think this is a non issue, most people would choose not to work in an environment where they would be forced to particpate in something that’s against their values. I wouldn’t work for Planned Parenthood or in any clinic where abortion is recommended or performed. No hospital I know of dispenses birth control or performs elective abortions.
“None of these anti-choicers are adopting these kids.”
I disagree, many of my friends who are pro life have been foster parents and have adopted children, even the “hard to place” ones. I have friends who are pro life and volunteer for Big Brothers and Sisters and other organizations that focus on the needs of children. Most of my pro life friends really walk the talk, and I admire them for that. And I don’t believe that abortion stops child abuse or neglect, the numbers don’t support that..if anything, it has reinforced the idea that children not valued and are disposable.
I don’t think abortion should be outlawed though, we need to work on the prevention of unwanted pregnancies because that is the only workable solution to the whole problem.
“Most of my pro life friends really walk the talk, and I admire them for that. And I don’t believe that abortion stops child abuse or neglect, the numbers don’t support that..if anything, it has reinforced the idea that children not valued and are disposable.”
Exactly Mary, abortion devalues life and reinforces not only the sinful concept, but the secular fault as well, of placing ourselves and our personal convenience, above all other interests.
Even over the very life of another wholly separate human life, which it ends.
Tom Paine,
“If Abortion is murder has some claim. Why not proscute women who get abortions as murderers?”
That actually was the law in most states before Rowe v. Wade. Few women were actually prosecuted- just enough to keep women who had complications from illegal abortions from going to the ER until it was too late. A lot of women died as a result of that law, and the reaction of many of the anti’s I’ve talked to is “So what!”
Boxic,
What devalues life is the same thing that devalues anything- the supply outstripping demand.
“What devalues life is the same thing that devalues anything- the supply outstripping demand.”
Jed, that’s asinine….so lets increase the value of life by killing large numbers so as to decrease supply and thereby increase demand. Is what you believe?
I can’t even believe that idiocy out of you.
Abortion is not murder because “murder” is a legal term, the illegal taking of life, and abortion is not defined in law as such.
It well may, and I believe so, have the same moral and spiritual implications as murder. But not legally so.
Jed
Posted November 19, 2008 at 8:30 am | Permalink
Boxic,
What devalues life is the same thing that devalues anything- the supply outstripping demand.
—————-
Ever see the movie Soylent Green. We can abort them before they breath or take their last breath from them. I guess that would cut the supply down. Of course no one would have to worry about dying of old age either.
What is the problem with that truck. Aren’t these the same people that said that ‘gay pride’ parades with nudity is ok, that think transvestites in full makeup and men in tights can go into a church and expect to take communion. What is the problem with a little reality. Aren’t these body parts. Where did they come from. It puts the lie to what many woman are told about the children they abort. Those ‘fetuses’ or pieces of tissue actually are people with arms and legs and a head and other body parts.
I really don’t like to see it either but it is someone free speech in action. No law against that last I heard.
Yeah I was telling parkay what I thought of his truck.
I told my kid that Christians like to scare people.
So do you. Is that a problem?
You didn’t address my question about the outrageous behavior of the demonstrators in Ca. Is it ok to invade a church and let the small children in there see their church being invaded. This is scary for them you know.
As I said it wouldn’t be my choice but your son is certainly old enough to know the truth about abortion.
Where do you get that I like to scare people?
It is not my fault bawks was afraid of me. HE carries a gun.
Don’t know where you were going with that.
I’ve already been over people like those with the truck.
Their crusade, for any number of reasons, is to ban abortion. That is simply not going to happen. I would not deny them the right to have their truck. But I say it wins them no favor in their already lost cause.
“I told my kid that Christians like to scare people.”
Do we need any more proof of how BlueJay is teaching his kid lies and generalizations?
BlueJay
Posted November 19, 2008 at 9:01 pm | Permalink
Yeah I was telling parkay what I thought of his truck.
I told my kid that Christians like to scare people.
——————-
So if you are a loving father why do you lie to your kid?
After some of the really bad things BlueJay has openly admitted on this blog that he has told his son I am surprised the blog editors have not turned him in to Child Protective Services to intervene and protect the boy.
Who is your “we” Nathan?
I didn’t lie to my kid okie. Maybe I was not exactly straight in a nuanced sense.
How many women with an unplanned pregnancy will that truck help?
I agree, should be up to the states.
I disagree. It should be up to the individual. But then, I’m a woman.
From the dawn of civilization and before, the lack of reproductive choice made women little more than property.
BlueJay,
While I agree with the rest of what you said, one point should be cleared up. At one time, women were equal to men. Women were revered for their childbearing and knowledge of “medicine”, among other things. This was before the dawn of Christianity, when men rewrote the rules, giving them the upper hand. It’s also one of the reasons for the “virgin” Mary. A female was needed in the equation to add a smidgen of balance.
ducking the rotten fruit getting ready to fly
None of these anti-choicers are adopting these kids.
First and foremost, Mary, you have some excetional friends.
I used to spend a lot of time in Yahoo! political chat. There, I often chatted with a man who was actively pro-life. As I have with others, I asked if he and his wife had adopted one of the “babies” they had “saved” by their efforts. (I’ve found very, very few have, but there are those few. See Mary’s post.) His answer? He and his wife were in the process of an overseas adoption of an Oriental child. And they were having her “eyes fixed” before bringing her home to the U.S..
“After some of the really bad things BlueJay has openly admitted on this blog that he has told his son …”
The archive is there. But surely you must have something from memory bawks?
What “really bad” things do you think I have told my son?
BlueJay
Posted November 19, 2008 at 9:51 pm | Permalink
Who is your “we” Nathan?
I didn’t lie to my kid okie. Maybe I was not exactly straight in a nuanced sense.
How many women with an unplanned pregnancy will that truck help?
—————–
BJ we will never know this now will we?
None of us know if someones decision was changed by seeing the product of an abortion.
Pred you talk off the top of your head a lot. This isn’t one of your romance novels. This is life.
“At one time, women were equal to men. Women were revered for their childbearing and knowledge of “medicine”, among other things. This was before the dawn of Christianity, when men rewrote the rules, giving them the upper hand. It’s also one of the reasons for the “virgin” Mary. A female was needed in the equation to add a smidgen of balance.”
Not one thing here has a semblance of credibility and you spout it as if you have personal knowledge of the time this happened. Fiction – it sells romance novels – not so much history books.
” having her “eyes fixed”
Please tell me that is not what I first think it is.
You have taught him to hate people like me who might some day employ him. You have taught him to look at people and see their sexual orientation. (That is my friend she is bi.) You have taught him to hate and that is your most serious failure as a father.
ducking the rotten fruit getting ready to fly
===========
I use fresh fruit that way if you can catch, you can take home a delicious and healthy snack.
The perfect little liberal drone.
“Don’t join the JROTC, it is just a recruitment tool”
“The military is bad”
“Burning the flag is ok”
“Saying the Pledge is bad”
“The color guard is a stupid military honor”
“Christians like to scare people”
“I can’t afford health insurance for you, but I am successfully self employed because I am not going to work for the man”
Nathaniel
Posted November 19, 2008 at 10:11 pm | Permalink
The perfect little liberal drone.
==============
LOL! Excellent summary.
I have taught my son to be wary of people who would exploit him and steal his talent and labor to make them money. Sorry, but I’m not gonna teach him to say “yes boss!” since I don’t myself know how.
And YOU okie, have one helluva lot of nerve attacking Pre for what she does.
YOU and your husband exploit the most vulnerable OF the vulnerable. You make your living on exploiting prison labor.
“You have taught him to look at people and see their sexual orientation. (That is my friend she is bi.) ”
Dontcha love when the right does this? I brag on my kid because he is not a bigot. SO he IS a bigot and I taught him to be because he does not judge people by what they are but rather who they are.
“You have taught him to hate and that is your most serious failure as a father.”
When he will deal with people like okie, Bawks, etc. teaching him to hate is teaching him to defend himself and what is right.
BlueJay,
Admits he teaches his son to hate others.
Oh yes, what a wonderful little gem of a father you are.
“Sorry son, I can’t afford health insurance for you because I am not going to say “yes boss” but I have no problems holding my hand out for the government to take money from those bosses and give it to you.”
Most fathers, would do whatever it takes to provide for thier children. Not BlueJay, he is too good to say “yes boss” so he can provide for his son.
Pred I have many prolife friends who have adopted. We have a real problem in this country with the restrictions placed on adoption. Kansas has restrictions placed on adopting bi-racial children.
I wish someone would explain to be why a child that is half black and half white is said to be black. And why wouldn’t a white couple be just as logical a choice to adopt as a black couple.
Just a few of my pet peeves on adoption.
I am and have been there for my son Nathan?
How was YOUR dad in that department?
““Don’t join the JROTC, it is just a recruitment tool” It is
“The military is bad” Didn’t say that. I told him the military was badly used of late.
“Burning the flag is ok” After a stolen election? You bet.
“Saying the Pledge is bad” Told him he didn’t have to.
“The color guard is a stupid military honor” Told him I saw no need for it at a school music program.
“Christians like to scare people” Their symbol is a man dying from torture. And that is just for starters.
“I can’t afford health insurance for you, but I am successfully self employed because I am not going to work for the man”
Health care is a right to everyone.
Got any more Nathan?
Since YOU came out so well and all?
“YOU and your husband exploit the most vulnerable OF the vulnerable. You make your living on exploiting prison labor.”
I will challenge one of the left loons on her to enlighten blowhard on what ‘prison labor’ as he call community corrections is.
You are truly an idiot. I keep waiting for you and your ‘conservative friend’ to show up on my doorstep to investigate me. Didn’t you buy you one of those dime store badges?
Pred I wasn’t putting down anything about you. I was talking about that statement you made which was patently ridiculous. Absolutely no basis in fact. You have been hanging around BJ too long.
BJ says:
“Health care is a right to everyone.”
It sure is now get a job and pay for it like the rest of us. Nothing anywhere says you have the right to free healthcare because you don’t want to work for the ‘man’.
Health care is a right to everyone.
==============
A right given by who exactly?
I just thought of the perfect irony.
Your son grows up and realizes his dad was full of hot air his entire growing up years. Joins the military, fall in love with and marries the daughter of a southern baptist minister, and refuses to allow his children to visit grandpa BJ because he is a hateful old man.
We do reap what we sow. Remember that.
Go figure.
The man who can’t provide health care to his own son because he is too good to work for the man and say “yes boss” expects the very same people he is too good to work for to take care of him and his son.
Oh, the sad, sad, very sad irony.
Universal health care would mitigate abortion, wouldn’t it?
We know now that the number one reason women choose not to carry to term is economic.
BlueJay
Posted November 19, 2008 at 10:36 pm | Permalink
Universal health care would mitigate abortion, wouldn’t it?
We know now that the number one reason women choose not to carry to term is economic.
————
And of course blowhard you have proof of this allegation. Not.
We are straying from the topic through no effort of mine.
I’m amazed at how I out conservative the cons.
Like my forefathers, I work for me and with others.
Just when did doing a job for an employer become superior to working for yourself and others?
Back to the subject….
“We know now that the number one reason women choose not to carry to term is economic.”
I can go get the proof okie.
A little hard to do the google when I am dragged off topic and outnumbered.
Two approaches on abortion
=======================
I thought there would be one approach, that being threw the vagina…What is the second approach?
“Just when did doing a job for an employer become superior to working for yourself and others?”
When it allows you to provide for your son.
““Just when did doing a job for an employer become superior to working for yourself and others?”
When it allows you to provide for your son.”
I provide just fine for my son.
You would be surprised how much he eats but he is never hungry.
I consider health care a basic right. The population largely agrees with me. SO yes I do take advantage of what is offered for my son.
Nathan, I don’t like you and you don’t like me. More than that even, you don’t like my family and I don’t like yours.
This is not a thread about me. This is a thread about some who are working to help limit women choosing abortion vs, the hopeless hapless like you who want to ban it.
Sorry, but while I’ve been dragged off subject?
Nathan? You posted that you have lived off of food stamps as a kid.
Where was YOUR dad? Before you go judging me?
BlueJay,
You made this thread about you when you told us that you tell your son that Christians like to scare people.
Idiot.
Like staying on topic has ever stopped you from making a thread personal?
Hypocrite.
When you have to rely on others to provide for your son, that is not providing for him.
Others are providing for your son while you sit around claiming the principle of being too good to work for the man.
I consider health care a basic right. The population largely agrees with me. SO yes I do take advantage of what is offered for my son.
—————————-
Of course you can prove that the population largely agrees with you because I don’t think you are right.
On subject – still waiting for the stats showing that economics is the major reason for abortions.
You just can’t throw things off the top of your head and expect us to believe it.
I’ll do links and proof later when I am not being attacked.
I didn’t bring the “truck pictures” topic here Nathan. I commented on it.
If you want to square off and call names nathan, Im game.
Sure BlueJay, meet me at Dillons…
LOL
I’ve already met you Nathan and several times.
I find you mousey, gawky, and socially awkward.
I saw you take an armload of home cooked food from a picnic and shortly after attack the cook.
Your best hope in stopping abortion is advocating the celibacy that your ineptness has forced on you.
“Nearly half (49%) of all pregnancies that occur in the United States are not intended, and about half of unintended pregnancies are resolved by abortions. Most (58%) of the women who have abortions had been using some form of birth control but became pregnant because of the failure or misuse of the birth control product/method. By the age of forty-five, about 43 percent of women in the United States have experienced at least one abortion. Among the women choosing to have abortions at a given time, nearly half (43%) have had at least one previous abortion.
There is not one particular type of woman who is likely to have an abortion. More than half (55%) of the women having abortions have had at least one child already. About two-thirds of the women having abortions have never been married. The majority (52%) are younger than age twenty-five, but only 20 percent are teenagers.
Women of all racial and religious groups obtain abortions. The largest number (60%) of abortions are performed on white women, but black women are three times as likely and Hispanic women twice as likely as white women to have an abortion in a given year. Catholic women are equally likely to have abortions as all women nationwide, but the rate of induced abortion for Catholic women is actually 29 percent higher than the rate for Protestant women.
Abortions occur for many reasons, and women tend to have multiple explanations for their abortion decisions. The most common reason, given by three-quarters of women having abortions, is that having a baby at that time in their lives would conflict with major responsibilities such as work or school. Two-thirds of women having abortions give economic reasons for delaying or foregoing parenthood. Half of the women choosing abortion do not have the supportive relationship that they would like for becoming a parent—either they do not want to start out as a single mother or they are having problems in their relationship with a husband or partner. Approximately 14,000 women a year choose abortions to terminate pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.
“Two-thirds of women having abortions give economic reasons for delaying or foregoing parenthood.”
“Majority of Americans Favor Universal Health Care
January 2, 2008 – A majority of Americans believe the U.S. should adopt a universal health insurance program, according to polling released by the Associated Press and Yahoo. The poll found 65 percent of Americans favor universal health care coverage, compared to just 34 percent who favor the current system.
Fifty-three percent of respondents listed health care as an extremely important issue in the 2008 elections, up from 48 percent in November.
Asked and answered okie.
Telling, isn’t it?
The subject is how some choose to ban abortion while others work to help women with unplanned pregnancy.
And I, a single dad, get blasted by the ban abortion crowd. For asking for what? A little help.
It’s midnight progressives, and another day closer to helping people instead of blaming them.
Boxic,
“Jed, that’s asinine….so lets increase the value of life by killing large numbers so as to decrease supply and thereby increase demand. Is what you believe?”
War is one of the three limiting factors of population; the other two being plague and famine. I would much prefer to use birth control and when necessary abortion to limit our growth. It at least is nuder our control; war, famine and pestilence aren’t, and lead to great suffering. They also hold the potential of human extinction. If it’s all the same to you, I’d rather avoid that prospect.
Well Jed, this is one of the few times I can agree with you at least in part.
I prefer birth control too….maybe just control period, over war and famine.
But I will never believe it right to kill the most defenseless and innocent of us through abortion. Unless to save the mother’s life of course.
Boxic,
What about to save all our lives?