There will be plenty of time to blame Barack Obama for the U.S. economy once he’s sworn in, but the Wall Street Journal editorial board isn’t waiting: “The voters may be full of hope about the looming Obama presidency, but so far investors aren’t. No president-elect in the postwar era has been greeted with a more audible hiss from Wall Street.” The editorial suggests that Obama reassure markets by announcing “that he won’t be raising taxes for the foreseeable future.”
Meanwhile, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity already have dubbed the current crisis the “Obama recession.”
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94 Comments
Oh yes, because the stock market didn’t drastically drop before the election was over, and Wall Street didn’t need a massive $700 billion bailout. This is why conservatives are morons when it comes to the economy. Expect four more years of Republicans whining and blaming everything on Obama which they used to blame on Clinton.
Maggotpunk, do you know anything but hatred? You are a disgusting living creature. I am sick and tired of you blaming everyting on Republicans. Last I checked, the DEMOCRAT party was in charge of Congress, and they were the ones who largely supported the bailout.
Hussein Obama bin Laden will raise our taxes, and when he does, Maggotpunk, you will shut your piehole and stop blaming everything on Republicans. Maggot, you are a punk.
ICTisInferior
Posted November 14, 2008 at 6:24 am | Permalink
Last I checked, the DEMOCRAT party was in charge of Congress, and they were the ones who largely supported the bailout.
________________________________________________
Last I checked, it takes 60 votes to get anything passed in Congress.
But don’t let simple math and the truth get in your way.
ICTisInferior
Posted November 14, 2008 at 6:24 am | Permalink
Last I checked, the DEMOCRAT party was in charge of Congress, and they were the ones who largely supported the bailout.
This public service announcement is brought to you by the Republican party, the party of BLAME!
Obama isn’t even sworn in yet and the political pundits are starting their propaganda that the gullible and ignorant conservative masses will gleefully ingest and parrot.
Try thinking for yourselves once in a while, it can be refreshing to your brain.
“Hussein Obama bin Laden”
Do you belong to the Spirit One Church? Talk about hatred!
Unreal. Only a con would turn their own failure onto someone else. What whiners they have turned into.
STEP UP CONS, figure it out. Your policies have caused this.
From what I’ve seen, there is plenty of blame for everyone, no matter what their political persuasion.
ICT?
That you Joe?
“No president-elect in the postwar era has been greeted with a more audible hiss from Wall Street.”
Well that’s the piggies squealing afraid they are gonna be made to pay. I hope they are right.
SOAK the damned rich. Let’s get some trickle UP economics going. As to Hannity and Rush? Fairness doctrine baby.
Let’s all hope that Obama follows up on his campaign promise to raise taxes for the everyone making over $250,000. If that doesn’t work, lets hope that he raises them for people who make over $150,000. If that doesn’t work….
The rich aren’t paying enough taxes! Isn’t that what we heard from Obama during the entire campaign?
An Obama adminstration with Democrats in full control of the house and Senate will be a gift for any 2012 challener. Let’s hope that Obama does whatever he wants :)
Makes sense for the “pundits” to be blaming Obama ahead of time..after all, many people on this blog have been blaming Bush for everything that has ever gone wrong since the dawn of time.
BTW…the election was over a week ago..and gas prices haven’t skyrockted as predicted since the ‘Republicans control the gas prices’ as claimed here shortly before the election. Remember? The libs claiming gas prices would shoot up over $4 a gallon the day after the election? Anyone remember those ridiculous claims?
Great prediction there..
“soak the damned rich”…sounds like you have a serious envy problem there, bj.
Just what has “Greed, for lack of a better word, is good” got us raptor?
BlueJay epitomizes Greed or else he would not want to soak the rich to feed his own lazy pocket.
There’s a good story from Aesop’s Fables about greed and envy:
The story of the dog with a bone in his mouth looking into a pool of water seeing a dog holding a bone in his mouth. The dog forgets about the bone that he has holding in his mouth and leaps into the water to fetch the one that he “sees”.
He loses his bone because he was unable to be content with the bone he had.
Abandoning capitalism for a top down managed command economy (communism) is giving up the bone you have already in your mouth for pennies on the dollar from an inefficient corruptible government. The vision looks good to the naive thinker, but it isn’t real. Lenin was succesful in convincing gullible people like BlueJay to join his revolution.
Socialism does not work in theory or in practice.
Read you history books for more supporting narrative of the failures of government mandated redistribution of wealth.
the most successful economy in the history of the world? The greatest standard of living ever known? The most sought after country on the planet, with millions trying to get here–legally and illegally–from other countries?
Ok…trivial things, I realize.
I’m so glad that gas prices have dropped under Obama.
OMG, I am HOWLING. The BDP (Blog’s dumbest poster) could put these sentences in the same post and do it with a “straight” face. (I’m so glad he’s one of yours, not ours!)
“Maggotpunk, do you know anything but hatred? You are a disgusting living creature.”
And then….
Hussein Obama bin Laden will raise our taxes”
Hehehehehhe.
Pot, meet kettle.
Well played Doug. I love how you can REALLY get under their skin. And make them show their true colors. Hat’s off!
INFERIOR is a wonderful representative of his Party to go along with alQuada-lover Bush. I get the feeling he is also a follower of Holick the Heretic.
“Read you history books for more supporting narrative of the failures of government mandated redistribution of wealth.”
HA!
One only needs to read the newspapers to see the “supporting narrative of the failures of govenment” under bushco and his merry band of deregulators.
But I suspect RFL doesnt read anything not preapproved by his church.
Information is a dangerous thing to churches and the sheeple who populate them.
Obama hasnt even taken office yet and you blame him for the bushco economic disaster?
heh. Heheheheheh. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
The good thing about humans is how they are hardwired to be immune to the realization of their own idiocy. Otherwise? Just LIVING would be too painful for you cons….
“BlueJay
Posted November 14, 2008 at 7:18 am | Permalink
ICT?
That you Joe?”
I am certain the INFERIOR one is not Joe. I have had my differences with Joe but he is not a hate-monger like INFERIOR is.
I am certain the INFERIOR one is not Joe. I have had my differences with Joe but he is not a hate-monger like INFERIOR is.
I concur.
Might the INFERIOR one be Franklin/FreshmanEcon/PaulThe ShrillShill?
“The good thing about humans is how they are hardwired to be immune to the realization of their own idiocy. Otherwise? Just LIVING would be too painful for you cons….” — Butch, the Chicken Lady.
Or for anyone, I suspect.
Here’s your reply anticipated.
Something about being especially true in my case?>
No president-elect in the postwar era has been greeted with a more audible hiss from Wall Street
================
Hmmm, this may put a damper on the rainbow farting unicorns…
Inferior is a good place to be in certain — ah — circumstances
You are not worth a real reply beber.
Go molest a child. I think you are behind schedule.
Slacker.
Maybe beber and eric sanford can team up. Sanford likes to boink his mama, and beber loves the kiddies.
Got a baby on me ole petard right now, chicken lady.
To the democrats Bush is both guilty of both growing the size of government and sponsoring deregulation.
Dems see it this way:
Big government = Deregulation
Typical oxymoronic logic indigenous democrats in general.
If they can only name exactly what Bush deregulated (and conversely what Obama plans to regulate), and how that has anything to do with the current financial downturn, we might be able to engage in meaningful discussion.
Maybe Wall Street investors are waiting for the real culprit to leave office. After all, George W. Bush does still have two months to screw things up even worse!
As for Limbaugh and Hannity calling the Obama Recession – how can one be blamed for a recession that started before their term?
Wasn’t that the rallying cry for Bush in the first place that he inherited such a mess from Clinton?
Yeah, he got a real mess handed to him – a budget surplus plus a memo warning about planes flying into a building but Bush ignored the memo and spent the surplus like it was daddy’s money! And look where that got us.
AZ Star cartoonist David Fitzsimmons sums up the grim reality:
http://www.azstarnet.com/viewfitz.php?src=http://www.azstarnet.com/ss/2008/11/14/266454.png
To all those who preached the gospel of a finance-based economy for multinational corporations, with few controls on a free market that would surely correct itself, and aided and abetted the outsourcing and offshoring of America, trade deals where the first-quarter bottom line is all that mattered, the irrelevance of quality work, the expendibility of quality employees, and the holiness of the Almighty Stock Price, congratulations! We couldn’t have done it without you.
I guess we will have to settle for a rainbow farting jackass.
Never fear – now that we are going to build our economy from the bottom up — it’s all going to be just fine — I can’t wait till I get my share of someone else’s wealth — God I love Marxism
Obama won’t be able to do much unless he works in concert with the rest of the world.
All of this campaign b.s. ‘the one’ promised is just b.s..
If they can only name exactly what Bush deregulated (and conversely what Obama plans to regulate), and how that has anything to do with the current financial downturn, we might be able to engage in meaningful discussion.
RFL – that has been explained several times and obviously you don’t want to learn so why bother? If Obama is so bad, then why did he surround himself with former officials of the Treasury Department, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet when the Wall Street crisis first happened? Where was John McCain – supposedly flying down to Washington DC to fix the crisis (BTW McCain ditched Letterman to go on CBS nightly news with Katie Couric) and didn’t get to Washington until the next day – where Obama was at the same White House meeting).
So, why don’t you let the guys that know what really happened handle it – okay? I’m sure if they need your help, they will call you.
do I get the feeling if the economy totally fails, some of you’d be happy?
Regular – at least the rest of the world likes Obama – unlike your boy George W. Bush.
I’m sure there is a big party planned around the globe when GWB heads for his Crawford ranch, hopefully never to be heard from again.
“do I get the feeling if the economy totally fails, some of you’d be happy?”
Oh no!
I’d be VERY happy that the principles of the FREE MARKET prevailed.
Freedom to succeed means freedom to fail.
unless you are a pinko communist socialist who loves the nanny state government….
Freedom to succeed means freedom to fail.
——————-
I think we have a ‘BINGO’!
#
mom
Posted November 14, 2008 at 9:04 am | Permalink
Regular – at least the rest of the world likes Obama – unlike your boy George W. Bush.
I’m sure there is a big party planned around the globe when GWB heads for his Crawford ranch, hopefully never to be heard from again.
———————
In case you haven’t notice dimwit, the rest of the world is the same sinking boat as the U.S.
This is not just a U.S. problem or a Bush problem.
Next time you try to parse one of my statements, try not to add your own bull shyt in there, because it still comes out as bull shyt.
“In case you haven’t notice dimwit, the rest of the world is the same sinking boat as the U.S.”
Yeah, and they blame america and bushco too.
What are ya gonna do? Bomb the entire world into submission?
hehehe. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.
Yeah. Keyboard warrior.
Like Obama said, ‘America only has one president at a time’, this is bush’s time (God Help Us).
It was pretty sad to see even the Masters Of the Hedge Funds yesterday, telling congress that more oversight and regualation was needed!
#
ksfarmgrrl
Posted November 14, 2008 at 9:14 am | Permalink
“In case you haven’t notice dimwit, the rest of the world is the same sinking boat as the U.S.”
Yeah, and they blame america and bushco too.
What are ya gonna do? Bomb the entire world into submission?
hehehe. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.
Yeah. Keyboard warrior.
——————–
Of course they blame America, it’s a Lib thing to do to advocate personal responsibility and blame others.
Perhaps you and mom could get together and decide on a meaningful sentence today? :D
It is a U.S. problem, a bush problem and a Repub. problem, it’s just been Globalized under bush.
“that has been explained several times and obviously you don’t want to learn so why bother?”
-mom
Mom continues to play “Lets pretend”. Let’s pretend that the Democrats have explained in detail what Bush deregulated and conversely what Obama plans to regulate and how that has anything to do with the economic down turn.
Mom asks the question:
“Where was John McCain…?”
and then answers her own question:
“…where Obama was at the same White House meeting).”
mom
Posted November 14, 2008 at 9:00 am | Permalink
If they can only name exactly what Bush deregulated (and conversely what Obama plans to regulate), and how that has anything to do with the current financial downturn, we might be able to engage in meaningful discussion.
RFL – that has been explained several times and obviously you don’t want to learn so why bother?
—————————
Translation: “I don’t have any clue. Stop asking hard questions and let me continue bitching!”
Bush era will be titled “Barbarians through the Gate”.
The reason that gas prices are still low after the election is because of the realization of how bad the economy has been shattered. Which, btw, will, most likely put off any meaningful switch to alternative energy sources. That is more important to the oil companies than immediate gratification anyway.
I guess we will have to settle for a rainbow farting jackass.
I see you’ve applied for that job and are quite qualified.
“Of course they blame America, it’s a Lib thing to do to advocate personal responsibility and blame others.”
Or it could be the truth.
Something cons constantly deny.
ksfrmgrrl – isn’t it funny to see how these Cons totally have a breakdown when they are confronted? No body dares to confront them or there will be hell to pay – yeah, right.
Cons is an appropriate name for them – con men thinking the whole world is just as stupid as they are.
Might the INFERIOR one be Franklin/FreshmanEcon/PaulThe ShrillShill?
I doubt it. He’s probably working on his talking point for January.
Either way, I don’t care.
I see you’ve applied for that job and are quite qualified.
======================
Like Obama I am not qualified to run this Great Country.
ksfrmgrrl – isn’t it funny to see how these Cons totally have a breakdown when they are confronted?
CF2K once noted with dismay the thousands of words he’d invested in this forum. That becomes particularly true when you spend too long engaging the dodging, weaving and misdirection of a sophist.
I’m reminding myself it’s not worth the trouble.
Hope they’re right.
FDIC unveils plan to modify mortgages
Buzz Up Send
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Digg Facebook Newsvine del.icio.us Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks Print 33 mins agoWASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp on Friday unveiled plans to modify about 2.2 million home mortgage loans. Highlights:
* Says plan offers financial incentives for mortgage servicers to modify loans, set affordable monthly payments for homeowners.
* Says its plan has a projected cost of $24.4 billion for federal
government.
* Says plan expected to prevent about 1.5 million foreclosures in United States.
* Says plan would pay servicers $1,000 toward expenses for loan modifications, and FDIC would share up to half of losses in case of default.
* Says it is prepared to serve as a contractor to U.S. Treasury Department to manage new anti-foreclosure program.
* Says Treasury Department has authority under the $700 billion federal bailout law to launch the FDIC anti-foreclosure plan, and that funding for it would come from the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP).
“it’s a Lib thing to do to advocate personal responsibility and blame others”
I think you meant abdicate, not advocate. You know, like the BushBots trying to shift the responsibility for Bush’s failures to Clinton and Obama.
Phantom – Shiela Bair seems to have a good handle on things. I think Obama should put her on the list of possible Treasury Secretary candidates.
They tried to shift the start of bush’s first recession back to Clinton (but those that establish the start date didn’t agree), now a feeble attempt to blame the current bush recession/depression forward to Obama.
Republican truly are blameless and pure as the driven snow, some would believe.
“No president-elect in the postwar era has been greeted with a more audible hiss from Wall Street.”
The market has been an indicator for years. In 1999 we were in a recession with the economy in the tank. In 2000 Bush got a bump in the market the market right after the election.
You cannot expect people to invest when you are talking tax increases and spreading the wealth around. People that have been willing to take chances by starting companies which supply jobs are not going to continue to do so. Companies will not continue to expand either. Which also means more jobs.
You can take from the rich who supply jobs as much as you want. You will then be left with the poor that do not supply jobs.
This is what the market is reacting to.
Just look at where the markets are at for bush’s whole tenure. Maybe bush should’ve resigned before he ever took office!
I think the market is responding to another Brenda Landwehr victory . . .
Or, could be the markets are reacting to the continue decline in consumer spending, down nearly 3 % during Oct., or the decline in auto sales, down nearly 30%, or the increase in unemployment and layoffs both up significantly, or just the tight financial markets in general.
Naw, couldn’t be that, must be because Obama won the election and will take office in a few months, yea, that’s the ticket.
Sounds like Repubs are in a continued state of denial.
And, I even left off the record rate of foreclosures in “The Great Ownership Society”.
Sunflower, please tell us you aren’t really an elected official!
I guess this is obama’s fault too, even though he hadnt even won the election when these figures were covered?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/economy
Consumer spending, fueled by debt and home equity, kept the economy going artificially.
Now? Consumers are tapped out, and the wheels are grinding to a halt.
And I’m not too crazy about bailing out homeowners either. The loans for more than the purchase price of the home, the home equity loans for cars and vacations and to pay off credit card debt, etc.
Why reward bad behavior?
Let ‘em burn. I would have liked to have had all those things too, but I knew I couldnt pay for them.
Looks like I’ll STILL be paying for them.
The republican mantra? Privatize the profits and socialize the costs.
No wonder they see a socialist under every tea cup. It’s the bushco way!
As if we didn’t already know, the CONs are perfectly willing to make their CONclusions and then play with the data to make it fit.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/charts/chartdl.aspx?Symbol=%24INX&CP=0&PT=10
If one scrolls across this graph for the S&P 500–the most representative and accurate index of general stocks, one sees that in October of 2000 before WPE (WorstPresidentEver) Bush was elected, the index stood at 1429. After WPE was elected, it dropped to 1314. In December’s close, it was hardly better–1320.
According to the math (which being reality has a well-known left wing bias), the WPE BUSH EFFECT dropped the market BY EIGHT PERCENT.
Capn – didn’t you get the memo? Everything bad that happened in Bush’s first term was Clinton’s fault. Everything bad in the 2nd term is Omaba’s fault!
This shouldn’t be a surprise. A massive sell off I would expect to continue. Conservatives have said the “rich” “the investor class” – whatever you want to call them, would not take Obama’s promised take increase laying down.
Money is being sheltered, taken off shore, etc. to protect themselves from promised tax increases.
I was thinking that the market dropped after bush’s first election, but didn’t want to go and look it up.
I just knew that if a person had sold out of the markets back then and buried their money, they would have more than if they left it in for the next 8 yrs.
Last month the CONS claimed that Obama was manipulating the markets to make it go down so Bush would look bad.
Phantom–
You are correct.
For all of Bush’s de-regulation and cutting taxes for the rich, NOTHING trickled down, even to traditional investors in stock funds.
This market is worse than the Nixon-Carter slump in the 70’s. That downturn only lasted four years.
I take that back . . . something did trickle down: we taxpayers got the bill . . .
“Money is being sheltered, taken off shore, etc. to protect themselves from promised tax increases.”
how very patriotic.
They love america when they get the handouts. The responsibility part? not so much…
KIA–
OMGORSH! The investor class is protecting their money from taxation and it’s leading to a crash–just like in 1960 when it taxes on the rich were 90 percent, right?
How stupid do you have to be to think that wealth can be miraculously created for all just by cutting taxes on a few?
Dropped another ten grand today into a minnesota utility which is now paying in dividends the equivalent of 7 percent annual interest, and has never had a losing year in its existence. Sink or swim guys. I hope we have a cold winter.
Wow . . . I sure wish that I could have privatized my Social Security fund like Bush and the CONs wanted me to.
Then in addition to my retirement funds being down 40 percent, my Social Security would be down an equal amount.
Remember what they said about “don’t put all your eggs in one basket?”
WPE Bush wants us to put ‘em all in one basket.
Easier to steal that way . . .
Basically, I agree, Berber.
This is a buying opportunity as we shift from total fiscal irresponsibility under BushCo to policies of sustained growth under a president with an actual brain.
Look at the economy and the markets under Clinton-Gore when they raised taxes and paid down the debt.
750,000 thousand new jobs a month. Stock market at record highs.
Correction: 750 thousand.
RFL posted November 14, 2008 at 7:41 am
The rich aren’t paying enough taxes! Isn’t that what we heard from Obama during the entire campaign?
———–
McCain was agin the temporary 39.6% to 36% tax cut for the wealthy, but during the campaign he was fer making it permanent. And he attacked Obama for ending what he (McCain) was earlier agin.
“There’s one big difference between me and the others – I won’t take every last dime of the surplus and spend it on tax cuts that mostly benefit the wealthy.” [McCain campaign commercial, January 2000]
“I am disappointed that the Senate Finance Committee preferred instead to cut the top tax rate of 39.6% to 36%, thereby granting generous tax relief to the wealthiest individuals of our country at the expense of lower- and middle-income American taxpayers.” [McCain Senate floor statement, May 21, 2001]
“But when you look at the percentage of the tax cuts that – as the previous tax cuts – that go to the wealthiest Americans, you will find that the bulk of it, again, goes to wealthiest Americans.” [NBC’s “Today,” Jan. 7, 2003]
36% on > $250k = McCain’s ‘Country First!
39% on > $250k = Obama’s (and Bill Clinton’s) SOCIALISM!
So when it comes to putting their country before their money, the greedy rich b@stards will move their money out of country (haven’t they been putting their money in tax haven countries all along?). I say if they have no more loyalty and patriotism than that they need to have their citizenship revoked and send them out of country right along with their money.
Jim Jones left America too early (1978) – if he only knew that we would soon turn our country into a Socialistic nanny-welfare state – he would have never left inorder create his Communist-Socialist utopia — I think I also saw Carl Marx crying in the croud along with Jesse and opra – Jim Jones would be so proud of us all – viva la Amerika – We should start a new national holiday (no work) November 18th to celebrate that bold adventure by Jim Jones and his followers – Kool-aid anyone ??
http://www.robbycleary.com/zz/1978/20081031a.html
Jim Jones was a christian minister.
That’s the fact.
Your post is just whining and arm flailing.
ksfg – idiots like dadman don’t know the difference between a Christian and a socialist. He must think ALL Christians are socialists.
I’m Sorry KsFarmGirl .. the facts are with me – click the link and hear the audio – and then come back later and tell me I’m wrong .. peace =:0]
Jim Jones is what we would call a modern-day-false prophet (one of many) .. Satan’s ministers usually do claim to be Christian (at-least at first) Jim Jones was actually a Liberal-Socialist-Communist .. you can also tell by what he left behind .. death and destruction .. ie: Joseph Stalin (atheist) . . . . peace
CapA – I know this will make you so sad but I just received a transfer out of Kansas. You will have to find someone else to call Brenda.
I will keep in touch on occasion with the blogs because I do care about Kansas.
Cosmos,
Thanks for all the wonderful but useless information on John McCain. Actually, I did not know that this thread was about John McCain. I thought this thread was about president-elect Barack Obama and the “hissing” from Wall Street since his election. My comments are directed to our future president not some runner-up.
Does Cosmos not know that November 4th has come and gone?
“Wow . . . I sure wish that I could have privatized my Social Security fund like Bush and the CONs wanted me to.”
Does Capn have the ability to make non contradictory statements to support his argument?
In one post pasted above he laughs at the idea of having social security benefits privatized (due to the recent stock market crash)
But read his next post
“This is a buying opportunity…”
And the next post he thinks that now is a buying opportunity (suggesting that he thinks that the stock market will go up from here)
Which is it Capn? If now is a good buying opporunity then it is a good time for long term investors to privatize their social security benefits.
Does Capn now support social security privitization because Obama is president?
Furthermore, anybody with common sense at their disposal knows not to be in the stock market when you are nearing retirement.
The idea to privatize social security appeals to YOUNGER workers. You know the kind who are in their twenties and have 30-40 years before they retire?
If this time is the time to buy as, Capn says it is, then even Capn has to admit that the market downturn right now will not affect those who are many years from retirement. Such individuals are the only ones who would want to privatize their social security benefits.
Nice try Capn.
sunflower might get a shock if transferred to a free state.
Problem is many people are not many yrs. from retirement, and would’ve had to eat (starve) because of their losses. The market may recover from here, (may not too), but will most likely take yrs. to recoup from the bush 8 yrs., so it’s not only dead money for the last 8 yrs. but however long it’s going to take to get back what’s been lost, probably stretching the time line to a decade and a half to two decades. Would’ve taken in quite a few retirees.
RFL–
My position is perfectly consistent.
People should be able to invest in whatever they want to for retirement.
Those young employees ARE NOT investing much into anything however, which is why the CONs want to let them speculate with their forced savings.
The national government pension and insurance program that is Social Security should not allow speculative investment in the stock market.
It is too risky for a safety net program like Social Security.
It’s very simple really.
Hot Damn!!! Hillary offered the SOS. I hope she accepts. This could be the most fun next four years ever in politics. Talk about a high powered team so far. I just hope they can keep the fruitcakes at bay.
Nov. 14 (Bloomberg) — New York Representative Charles Rangel said he’s revamping his tax overhaul proposal to reduce corporate tax rates to 28 percent, down from the current rate of 35 percent.
Ha, ha….when things get hot the DimLibs start acting like conservatives, ha ha.