Mitt Romney, writing in the New York Times, joins the chorus urging the federal government to let the Big Three automakers go bankrupt: “Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course – the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.” Interesting viewpoint for a Detroit native who, as a presidential candidate, campaigned in the state by saying, “I’m going to fight for every job.”
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282 Comments
Mitt Romney’s father was CEO of American Motors and perhaps Chrysler (I need to Google that) and also Governor of Michigan. Mitt should be very familiar with the automobile industry.
And we all know the vibrant healthy company American Motors is today!
The UAW has led the auto industry to this point. The unions are the reason for the demise of the auto industry, pure and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well, I wanted a Romney/Huckabee ticket in the first place…
What can I say, the candidate that could have saved the U.S. because of his successful recovery financial background is not even in the picture because of religious bigots.
The AMC Ambassador was a rugged car back in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. I’m not a car person but I think AMC inherited the Nash Ambassador and the Kaiser-Frazer automobiles. Symolizes the days of American entrepreneurship … before the growth of the federal government took over.
Federal government motto: “We’re here to help you.”
“Drop dead”
My sentiments exactly for plastic man Mitt the corporate raiding bas+rd. The same goes for all the anti union people.
Detroit is in trouble because of American stupidity and corporate short sightedness.
Detroit is in trouble because of the fat cow Union compensation packages making the Detroit products priced out of competition.
Pretty easy for a welfare recipient like you to bag on union people who work for a living there “Regular”.
Detroit is behind China, CHINA, because of collective American short sightedness as to energy. The union workers can only make what the engineers design and the American people demand.
People who work for a living?
Don’t you mean, people who work for the man? People who say “yes sir?”
This is what they need, right BlueJay? Now they can all go try to work for themselves just like you!
The arrogance of the CEO’s is unbelievable. They admitted under questioning that they each flew to DC on private jets. While it might be more efficient when considering their multi million dollar salaries…it just sends a bad message. Fly to DC to beg for money..on individual private jets. One congressman asked if they could have at least “jet pooled” since they all had the same originating and terminating points.
Granted, the entire auto industry problem is much, much bigger than this miniscule matter..but it just looks soooo bad.
I also would like to point out that you took this thread personal against Regular first thing.
Were you not complaining about that last night?
Hypocrite.
Facts don’t lie Junior…
The Japanese car companies are kicking the ass of Detroit bloated Auto industries. The Japanese take care of their workers, but they don’t bow down to them like Detroit does. The Detroit Auto worker is a bloated cow, a thing of the past that will cease to exist when their companies go backrupt.
“JWink” declares –
“The AMC Ambassador was a rugged car back in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. “
And the Gremlin. Don’t forget the Gremlin.
Except George Romney was president of American Motors in the 1950s, the era of running both the Nash and Hudson brands into the ground and peddling the tiny under-powered Rambler Metropolitan in ani era when Americans were buy land yachts.
Even if Mittens somehow inherited “automotive experience” through DNA, the experience (like McCain’s in foreign policy) is of failure.
Mitt Romney made his money destroying American businesses and shipping American jobs overseas an enterprise he led using inherited money.
Good ol Romney, his solution to every company’s problem is to lay off the work force. Like a typical Republican he offers no solutions.
Gee, “Regular” –
And all this time I thought those contracts were negotiated… by the same executives who insisted on building massive trucks and SUVs by lobbying to keep those gas-guzzlers out of their companies’ CAFE standards.
General Motors invented the concept of Planned Obsolescence; building cars that were well on the road to self-destruction in a couple of years so people would have to buy new cars frequently.
It was your buddy Regular doing the whining Nathan. You do no small share of it yourself.
Let the damned CEOs take a pay cut. Maybe the big three need a few dozen fewer vice presidents and board members as well.
The union workers just make the product that is ordered. And yeah, they negotiate for fair pay and benefits. IF management can’t meet those terms that THEY agreed on and design a succesful product, THEY are at fault.
GM had a profitable business in mass transit electric rail system. They destroyed that so it could be replaced by diesel spewing bus lines. They had a electric car which consumers highly desired, but they chose not to promote the vehicle and fought California’s demand for a zero emission vehicle. They took the cars away from the owners and scrapped them and kept on developing gas guzzling SUVs. All the while the union workers would make whatever the CEOs ordered.
How is anything the fault of the workers who just build the crappy trucks that they are told to make? This is why Republicans are bad at business, they look for scapegoats rather than deal with the actual problems.
It goes higher than management in Detroit.
w bush subsidized the purchase of Hummers.
Uh, how IS that line doing now?
mh whines:
“This is why Republicans are bad at business, they look for scapegoats rather than deal with the actual problems.”
Rather broad statement, wouldn’t you say? Are you suggesting that every single business owned/run by a member of one political party is bad? Your “logic” of taking limited examples and trying to apply it to millions of people just doesn’t wash.
correction…MP…not MH..sorry about that.
“Rather broad statement, wouldn’t you say? Are you suggesting that every single business owned/run by a member of one political party is bad? Your “logic” of taking limited examples and trying to apply it to millions of people just doesn’t wash.”
No, Republicans in general are bad. When they aren’t acting like Republicans they tend to do better.
Once again, Junior injects his personal venom against me instead of dealing with the issues.
I’m telling you folks, Libs on this board and general do no know how to discuss like mature adults without making it personal.
Unfortunately, Romney is right. The overhead that the major three have saddled themselves with does not allow them to be competitive. Since they apparently can’t get out from under this burden by renegotiating contracts, is there any other option? I mean other than pouring more taxpayers money down the rat hole to keep them afloat for a year or two more?
They need major surgery and a long term fix or those jobs simply won’t be there. Bankruptcy will allow them to do it.
Regular
Posted November 20, 2008 at 7:19 am | Permalink
Detroit is in trouble because of the fat cow Union compensation packages making the Detroit products priced out of competition.
–
And Wall Street corporate CEO’s are not getting fat cow compensation packages?
But somehow these people are better than the US automakers?
Regular – go look in the mirror and you won’t see a mature adult. I remember someone with your nic who went off ranting and raving about a damn pencil like a chicken with its head off when I asked simple questions that you couldn’t answer.
Sherman asked the CEOs, “I’m going to ask you to raise your hand if you are planning to sell your jet in place now and fly back commercial.”
“Let the record show, no hands went up,” noted Sherman
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/lawmaker-asks-auto-ceos-sell-private-jets
Yeah, the companies are falling apart but they can’t be expected to make the ultimate sacrifice and sell their jets and fly commercial. Kinda like how failing banks needed $70 billion in order to pay bonuses.
The government should have a bailout by buying up GM stock and giving that stock to the employees so they can vote out the corrupt, incompetent CEOs.
The Detroit Three are in trouble because they hitched their futures ti suburban assault vehicles and largely ignored the car market. And GM may be the worst – also labeling science as a “crock of sh*t”. Well, as far as I’m concerned these corporations are run by ‘crocks’ and until they jettison them they do not deserve MY money.
BTW – they are NOT the “Big Three” or the “Major Three.” They are the “DETROIT THREE”. Check the rankings of Toyota, Nissan, etc. If memory serves GM is #2 and the other two lag far down the list.
Detroit is in trouble because of the fat cow Union compensation packages making the Detroit products priced out of competition.
Then please explain why foreign car makers operating in the U.S. paying the same wages and benefits to their employees as the Big Three U.S. automakers aren’t having the same money woes.
Oops! Sorry, Ben. Let me try it again. :)
Then please explain why foreign car makers operating in the U.S. paying the same wages and benefits to their employees as the DETROIT Three U.S. automakers aren’t having the same money woes.
And to think I’d originally replaced “Detroit” with “Big Three”. That’ll teach me.
The UAW has led the auto industry to this point. The unions are the reason for the demise of the auto industry, pure and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.
*********
Yeah right! And I’m sure that the fact that GM is paying their CEO $16 million a year (or $7692.31 per hour for a 40 hr week) plus perks like private jets to drive this wreck into the ditch has nothing to do with it.
Here’s what the conservatives wanted:
1) Lower tariffs on auto imports
2) No universal health care (GM opened up a plant in Canada rather than the US because health care is cheaper there)
3) low CAFE standards
So how’s that working for GM? Consumers are buying more fuel efficient imports from countries that provide universal health care. GM can’t sell it’s gas guzzlers from Mexico despite the lower wages paid there.
For the cost of a vehicle $1500 of that cost goes to health care for the employees. Too bad the Republicans opposed universal health care in the 90s then this cost could have been avoided. What else was considered by Democrats? Higher import tariffs to make the price of American made vehicles more attractive, and higher CAFE standards to better compete with more fuel efficient foreign cars.
But now we should listen to a Republican like Mitt Romney to tell us how to deal with the problem. The problem could have been dealt with a long time ago, but there were CEOs that thought hybrids were just a fad and higher CAFE standards would cost jobs. Keep on trying your policy of failure Republicans, the end result will still turn out the same.
I am in the position where I have to consider a possible vehicle purchase. I am looking for:
Gas mileage about 25 mpg City
Seats 7-8
Goes fast enough to deal with Kellogg
Decent maintenence record.
What vehicles fit? The Oddesset comes to mind. Possibly a couple of the Chrysler vans; however when I test-drove them they did not reach my ’speed’ requirement.
What should I include on my ‘long list’.
I would note that the last time I bought a new car my requirements were:
30+ mpg
Seats 4
Fast
Reliable
Ford was the only Detroit company that made the long list; however they did not make the short list (lost on reliability and speed). I did buy an American-made car (Honda Civic).
Can you say “market share”?
Detroit is in trouble because they tried to force the market to buy what they wanted to build, instead of building what the market wanted.
Sounds like economic development in kansas. Let’s pretend we can make companies want what we have, instead of giving them what they want.
And what they want is quality of life for the the execs and employees.
How’s that working for wichita?
Heehee. Um, I wonder how many businesses want to expand or locate in a community where the churches appear on CNN under the banner “Ignorance in America”?
I bet THAT gives ‘em confidence in the workforce…
Did Mitt’s dad bankrupt American Motors. Wouldn’t surprise me. Romney’s an idiot.
Japan’s R& D is heavilly subsidized by their govt., they also have socialized health care. How can you compete with that?
America needs to wake up every major car producing nation is subsidized by their govt.
I was adamantly against the big three bailout until I read an article posted by (I think) Vaughn yesterday about the effects of Ch. 7 bankruptcy and the possible outcome if China buys parts of GM. Pretty scary $hit.
I think the best rout forward for GM might be for the government to provide (maybe through some of the banks we now own) loans for GM under the condition of filing ch. 11 and reorganizing.
All of the white collar staff that drove GM to this place in history – gone. Fire them. Get in some fresh new blood with a vision for the future.
Drop the union.
Set appropriate pay scales for white collar as well as blue collar labor. Rethink benefit packages for all. And retool for fuel efficient – alternative vehicles.
If GM just gets handed a check, what is the motivation to change? How long before they have their hand out again?
bth
25mpg city in a vehicle that seats 7-8 is kind of stretching it. Especially if you want any kind of acceleration.
If you find something that can do that I’d be interested in knowing what it is.
I’ve driven several Chrysler vans and really like them. I thought they had plenty of power. But 25 real life city mpg aint gonna happen with one.
I was adamantly against the big three bailout until I read an article posted by (I think) Vaughn yesterday about the effects of Ch. 7 bankruptcy and the possible outcome if China buys parts of GM.
———-
New for 2010, The Chevy Rickshaw!
100% fuel efficient.
Rice not included.
25 mpg city happens with our 2002 Mazda MPV – seats 7. Unfortunately they don’t make them now.
“Phantom
Posted November 20, 2008 at 9:51 am | Permalink
Japan’s R& D is heavilly subsidized by their govt., they also have socialized health care.”
Does the Japanese government provide socialized health care to the auto workers who made my Honda Civic? In OHIO?
“25 mpg city happens with our 2002 Mazda MPV – seats 7. Unfortunately they don’t make them now.”
And there you have the crux of the problem with Detroit….
“retiree burdens”? Does this mean if they file bankruptcy, that pensions for people that gave their life to their company will be gone? How is that good for the economy? A pension may be almost half of a senior’s monthly fixed income.
bth, no, the Japanese government doesn’t supply the healthcare for the Ohio workers. I do wonder, though, if the Hondas from Ohio are totally produced there, or whether components are produced in Japan, e.g., with final assembly being performed in Ohio. If this is true, then there would be lower costs for the components.
They dont give a damn about real PEOPLE jana, just wall street and phcuking with the unions.
As always with the republicans and cons, it’s ideology uber alles.
Does anyone buy a Honda because it is lower cost?
Or because it’s a better quality car?
I’m thinking the latter. You can find some pretty cheap american made cars, but very few meet the Honda quality standards.
The real problem I am facing is that 8th seat – need a bench seat in the middle where they all like the captains chairs.
Too many kids I guess …
components are produced in Japan, e.g., with final assembly being performed in Ohio.
This is how most foreign car companies operate. They keep costs down by building in ‘the homeland’ and the cars are assembled here – giving the buyer a warm fuzzy that it was ‘made in America’.
IIRC, that’s what Detroit does too. My Chrysler LeBaron, the biggest piece of crap I ever owned, was actually made mostly in Mexico, but somehow it was touted as made in America.
Which of course, is why I will NEVER buy another Chrysler product, no matter WHO owns it!
vt – and the ford I looked at was mostly imported too.
ksfg – the Civic was the most expensive of the ones I looked at. The decision was based on quality. My short list was Civic, Sentra, Corolla, and Protege. No Detroit car made that list (7.5 years ago). The Focus might at least make that list now if it were a small car I’m looking at.
BTW – my 25mpg for the MPV is real driving; not test track. Wichita and area.
So again, I say that every white collar person that drove the company to where it is today gets canned. Restructure the pay and benefits for all to be in line with the rest of the industry (read Toyota and Honda).
Retool and make quality efficient cars. Not rocket science.
Which of course, is why I will NEVER buy another Chrysler product, no matter WHO owns it!
——————
You and I are in firm agreement on that one KFG!
The longest lasting and most reliable part on a Chrysler: It’s tires
Farmie,
My beef with the unions is from experience. An old neighbor made $40 per hour to test drive cars. He drove brand spanking new cars (sharing drive time with an assistant driver who made $40 per hour as well) around Michigan for 6 hours a day. He got paid for 8 hours of work.
When GM lays off workers, they still get 95% of their pay.
Too much money being spent for people with the same skills as a McDonald’s fry cook.
bth, a few times when we took the kids and grandkids along we rented a vehicle large enough to make our bunch comfortable. Expensive, but probably not as costly as owning a vehicle we use occasionally.
bth…Saturn’s are the best GM cars on the market. Their engines will last 300k + miles if well cared for…just like a Honda or a Nissan. But Saturn was a much better car in the 1990’s when it first came out. They too have caved into GM’s mandate for larger more gas guzzling cars. But they still have some good models.
Been doing some reading on the ‘net. It appears that many of the Detroit Three (to borrow from bth) “made in America” cars are assembled in the U.S., from components made in Mexico (in the case of Ford and Chrysler, at least) and Canada (GM). It also appears that in the case of Honda, U.S., there are production plants in the U.S. for engines, transmissions, as well as other components.
Interesting. I also learned that it seems Honda’s U.S. plants are nonunion, even the new one in Indiana which I did not recall being a “right to work” state.
How many times has GM come out with different models of cars in the last 20 years thinking if they give it a cool name and because it is new people will buy it, but it is still crap. Then look at Honda, civic and accords still going strong because they are quality cars. I owned one GM product back in the early 90’s, had it for one year it was in the shop 3 times. I have bought nothing but Hondas and Mazda since and the only time it goes to a shop is for an oil change or new tires! I wonder maybe people want quality!
Make them retool…fire management, kick the unions a** and start over…..
Phantom
Posted November 20, 2008 at 9:48 am | Permalink
Did Mitt’s dad bankrupt American Motors. Wouldn’t surprise me. Romney’s an idiot.
—————–
If you listened to Romney last night you would realize the wisdom in what he said. In order for the big 3 to survive they have to get out from under the drain of union leadership.
I’m not saying this because I don’t think unions have a place in industry. I am saying this because unions have priced us out of the world market for whatever reason.
Remember when Spirit took over Boeing and pay consessions were asked for. The union tried to block these requests. That has proved to be a winning combination. Wages and benefits were one of the major reason Boeing dumped this part of their organization.
I am prepared to do with less in order to help us survive this economic downturn. The auto workers and the heads of the company should also make consessions. Get rid of those private jets they flew to DC yesterday.
With a bankruptsy the union will be forced to renegotiate their contracts. Romney has the experience and expertise needed to bring sanity to this process.
What I am hearing from others is that they are tired of biting the bullet when those contributing to the problem aren’t making any sacrifices.
jana – they looked pretty good. Problem I found is they seem to have their larger capacity vehicles only as trucks, not as cars. That creates a large mileage penalty.
linda – your suggestion is good BUT – our need is too frequent. That is why the MPV has been so good – carries 7 easily at 25mpg. If fitted with a center bench seat (or a middle jumpseat) that would go to the 8 needed.
Honda and Hyundai and Nissan all have good 7-seaters; Mazda used to have the MPV. Chrysler has theirs; I will be testing them for accelleration. However, I have been very disappointed with the Detroit offerings.
I think part of this is tied with their big truck marketing – “real men don’t drive minivans”. So, Ford etc tell me I should buy one of their trucks to fit my needs instead of a van.
“Interesting. I also learned that it seems Honda’s U.S. plants are nonunion, even the new one in Indiana which I did not recall being a “right to work” state.”
Lesson: treat your workers decently and they don’t unionize. Also, from my experiece, even with a union if you treat a worker well the union will “look the other way” when you “bend” the rules.
Sol, with all due respect :)
Arent you the one who is always telling Pmom and JR that if they dont like their jobs or wages, they should negotiate with their employer?
WHY did the automakers agree? And why not applaud those employees for doing such a good job of negotiating?
Why is it that when the “bargaining” is done individually it’s a good thing, but done collectively, it’s a bad thing?
Because companies hold the upper hand with individuals, but not with groups of employees negotiating collectively?
I think the US automakers should fire their negotiators and hire the UNION negotiators.
Hehehe. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
treat your workers decently and they don’t unionize.
Curious. I hear a lot of folks bitching about the conditions working at Walmart. But still no union. Isn’t Walmart the nations leading employer now?
maggotpunk: Cars have been made in Ontario since 1922 when healthcare had nothng to do with any decisions. JD Power claims that 3 of the top 5 quality production lines are in Ontario and that had a lot to do with the expansion of new plants. There is an auto pact that guaranteed the production of cars equal to the amount bought locally, which has long been surpassed mainly by reason of quality coming off the lines. Health care has been around up there only since 1961, but no doubt that and the Government pension plan/old age benefits does reduce the Canadian operations’ admin. costs of cars. It has been estimated that the direct labor cost in an auto is 7%, but in the US it gets blown away with health and pension costs.The Canadian & Ontario governments will (I read in the Globe and Mail) partake in any Big 3 bailout in porportion to the US bailout, if it happens. Big secret….Onario has a bigger auto sector than Michigan, because of the Japanese. I betcha SolDevVB knows that though. Now if the Mexicans will get on board with help if needed, is another matter. All 3 countries benefit from the Big 3 and all should shoulder and bailout, not just the US. I doubt if Mexico will because they just thumb their noses at the wage parity and enviornemental parts of NAFTA anyway.
Keep buying your “American built” Honda’s, even though profits go straight to Japan, and when you lose your aircraft related job, piss and moan about Airbus. Out of work? Eat your import.
“. I doubt if Mexico will because they just thumb their noses at the wage parity and enviornemental parts of NAFTA anyway.”
I wouldnt expect the Mexican government to do anything. They want the jobs, and I’m sure the Big Three will pressure them to ensure a steady supply of slave wage laborers they can use to outsource.
WHY did the automakers agree?
Because they are pu$$ies and bowed to the unions under threat of striking?
And why not applaud those employees for doing such a good job of negotiating?
Because they didn’t do anything themselves. The union did it.
Why is it that when the “bargaining” is done individually it’s a good thing, but done collectively, it’s a bad thing?
Because collective bargaining is socialist and hurts all involved. The company (that is providing the job) is hurt by unfair wages. The individual is hurt because individual achievement is over looked. In a union, you don’t promote the best person, you promote by seniority.
Because companies hold the upper hand with individuals,
Why should they not? Should your chickens unionize and demand better coups and gourmet feed? Of course not.
“I hear a lot of folks bitching about the conditions working at Walmart. But still no union.”
IIRC, there are several court cases and NLRB cases pending against wallyworld.
WHY do you think they back the anti-union republicans?
One problem with WalMart is that it is difficult to organize a service cestor with high turnover. Also there have been at least allegations of the company intimidating workers trying to organzie.
Sol, I seriously disagree with you about unions. I’m just going to leave it at that.
WHY do you think they back the anti-union republicans?
Because traditional republicans don’t raise taxes?
“Should your chickens unionize and demand better coups and gourmet feed? Of course not.”
Workers aren’t chickens, and thus don’t exist for the purpsoe of slaughtering and eating. Or maybe Sol thinks they are. It would be in keeping with his fanatical devotion to moronic “free-market” theology.
Farmie,
Cool.
Because they are pu$$ies and bowed to the unions under threat of striking?
====================
Absolutely.
They should have told the union to piss off. There are plenty of other people looking for a good job.
Bite the bullet and tell the unions they can leave. Oh, and fire the fat cat slackers that got the company into this position in the first place.
Cf,
Ever heard of an analogy? Or are you just being an a$$hole, again?
moronic “free-market” theology.
We don’t have a free market now, but I wouldn’t expect you to understand that. And what is your alternative? Socialism?
Jesus, there are LAWS about decertifying unions. You cant just tell them to “piss off”.
The Big Three negotiated and AGREED to these union benefits and wages.
WTF? They knew all along that the nanny government would bail them out?
HOW can you whine about free markets and be crying about socialism when the bushies and the repubbies implement every nanny government and socialist program that comes down the pike?
Except for healthcare, of course. Too many doctors and insurance companies making campaign donations….
Wanna subsidize american manufacturing? Then do it by reducing healthcare costs. Cut out the insurance companies and middlemen, and the third party administrators. Make access to healthcare universal.
Yeah, I know. YOU all call it “socialized medicine” until it’s the automakers whining about it.
Then it’s good business.
Hypocrisy, thy name is….
I for one, would gladly take the job of that union $40/hr. driver for $30/hr.
“Because traditional republicans don’t raise taxes?”
No, because the only thing american business loves more than government handouts are union busting republicans.
Sol,
The problem with analogies is that they ARE analogies, and that to commit to part of the comparison entails you to commit to the disanalogy as well. That’s why they aren’t a preferred mode of argument.
The fact that you rely so heavily on them shows your flaccid intellect and need to dogmatically insist on ideological/theological beliefs like your fantasy of a “free market” that magically fixes everything.
Libertarian ideology = blaming the victim + invisible hand “la-la” land. The rest of us invite you to join us in the REAL world, Sol–the same world that you call “socialism” because it fails to live up to your Ayn Randian, adolescent fantasy.
Rhonda to the American Taxpayer: Drop Dead.
“Because collective bargaining is socialist and hurts all involved. The company (that is providing the job) is hurt by unfair wages. The individual is hurt because individual achievement is over looked. In a union, you don’t promote the best person, you promote by seniority.”
============================================
SO, Sol, is electing government officials a socialist thing?? I mean, what is an election, if not collective bargaining on the part of the Public?? And where else but government promotes by SENIORITY rather than the BEST person?? Can you say Ted Stevens?? Robert Byrd?? Strom Thurmond?? etc., etc.
Collective bargaining is a way for a GROUP of workers to get for EACH individual, what that individual could never negotiate for him/herself… It is NOT Socialist!!
Heheheh. Looks like Michigan cant catch a break.
CF, did you see this?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_go_co/waxman_dingell
GO WAXMAN! Even though I’m less than impressed with his follow through on the “oversight” committee.
KFG… The best reason to dump Dingell is that he is 82 years old!! Why isnt there some age limit on serving in Congress?? Something like, oh, say, 75 tops??
Hey, CF, you do know you can take that stick out of your a$$ right?
Again, we do not have a free market. How does small government, low taxes and individual liberty equal blaming the victim? Exactly who is the victim in the big three failure?
If you want the government to dictate 90% of your life, knock yourself out. I’d rather have freedom. If you think that is a fantasy, you are the epitome of why America is what it is today.
“Exactly who is the victim in the big three failure?”
EVERYBODY is the victim… from the top on down… The Consumer, because they have made ridiculous investments in gas guzzlers… Dealerships, because they are trying to please the buyers… and still cover staff and overhead…. The Autoworkers, because they bargained faithfully with the Company for their wages…
From the lowest wage workers to the highest hourly pay… the WORKERS are major victims, especially if the Detroit Three go belly up…. Talk about LOSS!!
Sol you don’t find it sad that Walmart is the Nation’s largest employer, and I’m fairly sure that walmart fires people for promoting unions
And where were all of the Republican Whiners when the Government bailed out Chrysler back in the 80’s, under Lee Iacoca…. That was on Reagan’s watch… REAGAN, the anti union fool in the White House….
My mistake Walmart is the largest private employer. the Federal gov is the largest employer and that’s not counting military
Sol you don’t find it sad that Walmart is the Nation’s largest employer,
Of course not. Walmart is a huge company that employs Americans at many levels. I wish they sold more non-China made goods, but they sell cheap stuff and that means China. Think about all the tax revenue generated by the monolith.
My mistake, it was Toyota, not GM that opened up a new plant in Canada.
http://discuss.epluribusmedia.net/node/3165
Auto makers in the U.S. pay $1500 for health care per vehicle, but in Canada it costs the auto maker just $197.
But that’s what Republicans want, higher medical costs and more manufacturing jobs for foreign countries. Maybe the Republicans will argue that if the rich are given another tax cut to buy another corporate jet this will fix everything. At the Congressional hearing on the auto bailout it was mentioned that each of the CEOs luxury jet flight cost $20,000 each.
ksfarmgrrl,
Check upthread: beat you to it! Let’s just say that Obama getting Waxman into that position–and I DO credit Obama here–pretty much makes up for leaving Joe Lieberman as Chair of Homeland Security. Which committee is going to be more relevant to Obama’s Energy Economy initiatives? I wonder…
Sol,
You blamed workers for exercising their rights to organize. I call that “blaming the victim.” Or are CEO’s the “victim” because they don’t get to use Pinkerton thugs and rent-a-cops to attack striking workers?
It’s pretty clear where your sympathies lie. You parade as a libertarian–a group of people for whom I have little use–when you’re actually a low grade fascist state-hater. Can’t say I’m surprised. It complements your racist statements on this blog.
If the people who say that America is moving in the wrong direction (myself included), how many of those people have a clue which way that direction is?
America has been moving gradually more socialistic for the past 100 years. Insanely enough, the worse things get due to too much government intervention by opportunistic politicians, the more people blame the “free market” and vote for more socialism.
It complements your racist statements on this blog.
Care to back that up?
http://www.newsday.com/business/nationworld/ats-ap-congress-autos-southnov18,0,4353521.story
After luring foreign automakers, Southerners have big incentive to oppose auto Detroit bailout
By BEN EVANS | Associated Press Writer
6:13 PM EST, November 18, 2008
WASHINGTON (AP) _ If it’s no surprise that Michigan lawmakers are behind the pitch for a $25 billion lifeline for Detroit automakers, then it might be just as predictable that Southerners would be leading the charge against it.
Southern politicians have spent years luring foreign automakers to build cars in their states, with huge success. South Carolina has BMW. Mississippi recently landed a major plant for Toyota Motor Corp. Alabama boasts plants run by Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co.
In Georgia, the governor recently began using a Kia SUV in honor of the company’s planned $1.2 billion manufacturing facility there.
It’s not that Southerners are secretly wishing for the Big Three to collapse. But if those automakers were to falter, the new players are poised to ramp up production and possibly turn the South into the next Detroit.
You blamed workers for exercising their rights to organize. I call that “blaming the victim.”
You see what you want to see. I laid out a couple of examples of what I was talking about. If you are too lazy to read and/or comprehend that, you are a waste of time.
I also pointed to the leadership of the company. You failed to recognize that as well. You see what you want to see.
How, pray tell, is this fascist in any way shape or form? You, however prefer a socialist approach. Had you a wit, you would see your approach is far more fascist than mine. But alas, you prefer to name call. Whatever blows your skirt up.
Oops CF. Sorry, I didnt see that.
I hope Waxman will do more than issue “strongly worded letters” and hearings that go nowhere.
I sure wish Pelosi and Hoyer would feel the need to spend more time with their families…
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/21/business/toyota.php
snip— info is a little dated
Union jobs at plants owned by the Big Three pay about $26 an hour versus $24 or $25 an hour for the nonunion jobs at the foreign plants. But compensation at the American automakers swells to an average of $55 an hour, when health care, cost of living and other benefits are counted, as against $48 an hour, on average, at Toyota.
But Toyota gets more out of its workers. Its plants are constantly running on overtime, according to Harbour & Associates, a consulting firm that tracks manufacturing. By contrast, GM’s plants are operating at only 75 percent of capacity, Harbour found.
annie – I think you have shown a big part – efficiency. And THAT is a management issue.
RepubliCONs:
No taxpayer support for union workers who actually make things for a living
Taxpayer support for filthy rich financiers only–people who make money marketing money.
*****
Yeah, we get it, CONs.
That’s why we beat you like a dirty rug in the last two elections . . .
Re: souther car plants. They are also building aircraft plants in the south. That is one reason Boeing is having problems.
PASS THE EMPLOYEE FREE CHOICE ACT NOW
Make America a land of union employees once again.
The law makes it easier to unionize, forces business to negotiate with newly formed unions, and penalizes companies for firing workers who attempt to unionize.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
Ben, as to the south and mfg…
Of course, being anti union makes the companies want to come to their states. However, it also lends credence to Richard Florida’s contention that people dont follow business, business follows people.
Look where population grown occurred in the last two decades. In the south. And where has manufacturing gone? Also to the south.
They followed the people, not the other way around.
That’s why I always say economic development should focus on PEOPLE. The businesses will follow.
But in kansas, as usual, we do it backasswards. We think if we give enough away to business, the people will follow.
How’s that working for the state?
heheh. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
ksfarmgrrl,
Agreed, and agreed. As to the first point, I think that having Obama in the White House empowers Waxman in a way that Pelosi spent the last two years tamping down. Waxman is in position to be the go-to guy for Obama’s initiatives, and I think that’s why he now is where he is.
Maybe the South being warmer has something to do with it? who Chooses Detroit over Tampa?
The law makes it easier to unionize, forces business to negotiate with newly formed unions, and penalizes companies for firing workers who attempt to unionize.
It takes away the secret ballot and forces workers to sign cards. It allows unions to strong arm and solicit at worker’s homes. It also allows union organizers to single out individuals who do not sign.
I’m amazed that you support this capn. Totally shocked. Why have a secret ballot when the union can ostracize.
I think the climate has something to do with why people moved South in the first place.
My major point is that AFTER population growth shifted south, business followed, not the other way around.
“It also allows union organizers to single out individuals who do not sign.”
And the law now allows management to harass and fire people who support unions and try to organize.
I think the card check law just levels the playing field. But of course, big business doesnt WANT a level playing field.
They like a field that the GOVERNMENT tilts their way.
ksfarmgrrl,
EXACTLY. Sol is pro-government when the government can be forced to policies that are pro-business.
CF, you are clueless. Where have I posted anything pro government?
And I am still waiting your proof of “It complements your racist statements on this blog.“
http://www.cagw.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11572
One reason companies locate in the South are incentives,
Incensed Over Incentives
Thursday, August 21, 2008
By: Leslie K. Paige
Wastewatcher, August 2008
snip
One such provision was supported by Alabama Sens. Richard Shelby (R) and Jeff Sessions (R), as well as the entire Alabama House delegation. It bestows a $300 million tax break on a foreign privately-owned rail car manufacturer.
In the aftermath of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, Congress enacted the Gulf Opportunity Zone Act of 2005 (GO Zone) to grant tax incentives to individuals and businesses who make “qualified investments,” mostly in Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi, in order to facilitate rebuilding efforts. GO Zone incentives are administered through the states and are supposed to be allocated in counties that suffered the most damage. Alabama’s portion of GO Zone tax breaks are capped at $2.1 billion.
Instead of focusing the money close to the coast where it is most needed, the Alabama delegation expanded the GO Zone to Colbert County, which is 300 miles from the Gulf and had not previously been eligible for the tax incentives. The primary beneficiary of the tax incentive being made available through congressional largess is National Steel Car, a Canadian rail car manufacturer. The total cost of the facility is $350 million.
In order to close the deal with National Steel Car, Alabama state officials offered a $109.7 incentive package and a promise to obtain the GO Zone expansion for Colbert County and the concomitant $300 million tax break that came along with it. Without it, the state would have had to ante up another $13 million for the company itself and local officials would have been on the hook for another $2.5 million for land acquisition.
To add insult to injury, four U.S. rail car companies, which have been forced to lay off workers in the economic downturn, protested the provision, to no avail. House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank (D-Mass.) also objected, but only faintly.
After President Bush signaled his desire to sign H.R. 3221 as quickly as possible, it was on a fast track for passage. In the end, the housing bill railroaded taxpayers in more ways than one.
Blog Racist,
This isn’t difficult. For evidence of your racist utterances, READ THE THREAD.
This isn’t difficult. For evidence of your racist utterances, READ THE THREAD.
So, then, you got nothing. Figures.
I would think that now would be an awful time to try to foist unions on struggling companies. Anyone can see that the wages and benefits extracted from the auto makers by the ultra-strong UAW made them uncompetitive.
Blog Racist,
If you refuse to acknowledge that you said what I have demonstrated that you said, that makes you a liar. But seeing as how you’re already a racist, I suppose being called a liar when you lie is no biggie.
” “I’m going to fight for every job.”
That’s correct. Giving money freely as a handout does NOT produce a worker.
It adds only to the bread line.
Romney is right on!@
If you refuse to acknowledge that you said
Still got nothin.
This all didn’t happen overnight. Where was the million dollar management, the boards when the figures didn’t look good. What about THEM making change when changes should have been at least started. I can’t say I feel sorry for anyo of them. I do feel for the workers, union or not. As they will take the brunt of the failure. The GMs, CEO’s etc will walk away just as well off or better as they were.
But I do not believe they should be bailed. What are they showing that will change. Exactly what will they do when the money loaned by the govt is gone? What’s the plan? Did I miss something here? All I keep hearing/reading is the “woe is us” if you don’t give us the money.
I guess I am just too angry at the stupid-ness of the CEO’s, etc. Force them to sell their jets. But who would buy them? Fire them all. Dump them. I don’t really care. I’m just sick of it all.
As far as I can remember, KS has always been a “right to work” state… And yet, I can remember in my younger years, how many Boeing, Beech, and Cessna workers who were NOT union members, constantly griped because they did the same work as the guy next to them on the Line… Yet the guy next to them was Union, and got a higher hourly wage…
Somehow, the griping never made much sense to me…
“Keep buying your “American built” Honda’s, even though profits go straight to Japan”
I guess it’s o.k. in this posters view to bailout the big three, which is competing against these other AMERICAN automobile workers.
Blog Racist,
You lose. Again.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rag-head
How’s that feel, Blog Racist? I bet it makes you want to don some sheets and burn a cross; after all, you’re too big a coward, after all, to lynch anyone.
Not that lynching is courageous, by any means. But it does require confrontation, and you’ve shown yourself to be someone who slinks away rather than dealing honestly.
If it was good for Iacoca and Chrysler in the 80’s, its good enough for now… The real gripe is that now we will have a Democrat in the White House… THEN, we had Sir Ronald of Reagan(omics)
“It takes away the secret ballot and forces workers to sign cards. It allows unions to strong arm and solicit at worker’s homes.”
Would the same people support all elections being public – record how each and every one of vote?
I don’t think so. So why allow labor unions to beat and make life difficult for workers?
“If it was good for Iacoca and Chrysler in the 80’s”
That would mean you support a “loan” to the automakers. They will have to pay the taxpayers back with interest. And they will have to come up with a viable business plan – like any business applying for a loan.
“Keep buying your “American built” Honda’s, even though profits go straight to Japan”
Stockholders of corporations are global – not just in one country. And, as for the choice of a Honda, why did Detroit refuse to meet my requirements? What SHOULD I have bought?
“I guess I am just too angry at the stupid-ness of the CEO’s, etc. Force them to sell their jets. But who would buy them? Fire them all. Dump them. I don’t really care. I’m just sick of it all.”
Hey, they could probably sell the planes to Limbaugh, or Hannity, or Boortz… any of those guys who dont think carbon footprints mean anything… Shoot, Anne Coulter could buy one, and have plenty of time on board to put on her 30 lbs. of make-up…. LOL
As for salaries, anybody check out Limbaugh’s new contract??? Something like $480Million???
And for WHAT?? Not an original thought in the man’s head… just a stupid blow hard, that appeals to the base fear in the Right Wing…
Amtrak, ConRail – these entities have problems but do seem to have kept America’s rail infrastructure intact. Perhaps they might serve as some sort of model – to look at and improve upon. Instead of bailing out the incompetant idiots who run the Detroit Three establish a corporation to buy assets. Then put together ONE Detroit company to build “Detroit” cars to compete with Ohio, Alabama, Georgia, etc.
American_Way
Posted November 20, 2008 at 12:39 pm | Permalink
“If it was good for Iacoca and Chrysler in the 80’s”
That would mean you support a “loan” to the automakers. They will have to pay the taxpayers back with interest. And they will have to come up with a viable business plan – like any business applying for a loan.
============================================
And what is it that you object to in some good old fashioned American Capitalism??
As for the Unions… IF you want to outlaw labor unions, then that takes Government action to do that… And then you wonder why some call that sort of action Facism??? LOL
BTW, Iacoca and Chrysler did pay back their loans… WITH interest…. and BEFORE the final due date…. Not bad for a bunch of auto makers….
That’s what you have CF? Calling al-qaeda rag heads? Then you blather about sheets and burning crosses?
How pathetic.
One glass of koolaid, per person, per day. You just went through a week’s worth!
Blog’s biggest racist. LMFAO. What a pathetic person you are!!!
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
As for salaries, anybody check out Limbaugh’s new contract??? Something like $480Million???
And for WHAT?? Not an original thought in the man’s head… just a stupid blow hard, that appeals to the base fear in the Right Wing…
————————–
Well Chas it appears that his vast audience in the US doesn’t agree with you. Doesn’t that just frost your little hind side?
What exactly does Limbaughs salary have to do with anything we are discussing? I think actors make way more than they should. But we aren’t talking about that either.
“As for the Unions… IF you want to outlaw labor unions”
I never said that. They are a dying breed anyway. Less than 11% of American workers belong.
Only bright spot: Teachers Unions NEA AFT and gov employees unions.
And guess who is paying for them?
“Something like $480Million???”
People are buying. Not so w/American cars.
“One glass of koolaid, per person, per day. You just went through a week’s worth!”
Speaking of koolaid anyone notice what yesterday was? 30th anniversary of Jonestown.
Where the drinking of koolaid phrase began…….
I agree okob and AmWay – just like with a football star if his listeners want to pay him so be it.
“BTW, Iacoca and Chrysler”
And like I posted, you should only be supporting the same type deal……
Business model/profits/plan must be shown.
Well Chrysler found out something in the 80s. We bought a little K car in ‘86. Drove the dickens out of it. Got rid of it when it turned over 200,000 miles and all we ever had to do was replace the timing chain. We did this because a mechanic said we should do that every 60,000 miles to keep it from going out and hurting the motor.
My husband was a United Rubber Worker at that time and so we wanted to buy American. The big surprise we got when we bought this American made car was that it had a Mitsubishi engine. Chryler made its comeback by buying big components from foreign suppliers. The new management needs to go back and look at the business model that brought them to the dance.
Kick GM out of the Dow…now!
With the world’s largest automaker running low on cash, it’s no longer worthy of being included in the venerable index.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/20/markets/thebuzz/index.htm?postversion=2008112013
I’m amazed that you support this capn. Totally shocked.
Because according to Sol, union members should have to capitulate to the cowards who kiss boss ass and refuse to stick with their brothers.
Hey, if they don’t like it, they can always start their own business . . . isn’t that what you CONs always say?
ksfarmgrrl
Posted November 20, 2008 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
“It also allows union organizers to single out individuals who do not sign.”
And the law now allows management to harass and fire people who support unions and try to organize.
—————————————
Really Farmgirl, where in the law does it allow management to harass & fire people who support unions?
BS.
You are reading the Demkos talkin pts again.
“replace the timing chain”
Or was that a belt? Similar with my Honda.
Remember when Spirit took over Boeing and pay consessions were asked for. The union tried to block these requests. That has proved to be a winning combination. Wages and benefits were one of the major reason Boeing dumped this part of their organization.
——————–
Okobserver, am curious why you think that’s why the sale took place? Also, if you’ll recall, the IAM workers then received thousands of dollars in bonuses.
Unions are a dying breed anyway. Less than 11% of American workers belong.
Hell, yeah.
That’s what 40 years of union busting has wrought.
And how’re middle class wages, Am_Way?
Stuck in the crapper.
But some people like Am_Way continue to get p!shed on . . . they call it “rain.”
Yeah! Lets make everbody sell their jet’s Than we will not have any jobs in Wichita. So why don’t we all walk to work or to the stores. Instead of driving gas guzzing cars. Just because we got them does not mean we have to use than
And Sol, you had it right above.
When Unions demand too much, the Company needs to tell them to piss off.
Farmthing called this decertifying the union, but she’s reading the Dem Talkin Pts on Dailykos.
Look up the NLRA before you speak from ignorance again Farmthing.
Both sides are required to bargain in good faith. However, neither side is required to agree with any and all demands made by the other side.
When the Unions present a contract proposal that will bankrupt the Company, the Company should simply reject it.
“Where in the law does it allow management to harass & fire people who support unions?”
Gee, I dunno.
Let’s ask all the Wal-Mart workers who have unionized.
Wait a minute, there aren’t any.
WHY?
Because every Wal-Mart worker who attempts to organize quickly becomes a former Wal-Mart worker.
Just as I figured… Bash on the CEO’s, and fawn all over Limbaugh…. Limbaugh flies on his private jets… Limbaugh is a “CEO” of a different sort… and yet produces nothing, but advertising revenue… Employs only a handful of nincompoops that bow and scrape to his every whim of fancy…
AND, like many on the Blog, he bitches about Government… LOL
Athletes have UNIONS… powerful UNIONS… They have collective bargaining… and they pay their Agents big $$$$!!!
Actors/actresses also have a UNION…. AND they have Agents… Many of them are also the CEO of their own production companies…
Now, how are we talking about something different??? Hmmmm???
Heckler–
Did you get banned and have to come back under this nic?
Ain’t that a kick in the head.
Debate this Union issue all you like here.
The fact is, Obama & The Dems will pass this law to make authorization cards public, the unions will be allowed to coerce employees to vote for the union, and the final result will be:
More American companies closing down or moving overseas, and less jobs in the USA.
And then Obama the Facist will Nationalize whatever American industry remains, giving the Government complete control, and that will be the final nail to end employment in the USA.
You Socialists will win, nobody will work, and as long as the money trees thrive, everything will be just great!
Because every Wal-Mart worker who attempts to organize quickly becomes a former Wal-Mart worker.
Got a list?
union members should have to capitulate to the cowards who kiss boss ass
Now you’re just being down right dumb
I didn’t “kiss boss ass” and I got everything I wanted. I negotiated a fair deal. Pretty easy stuff. If you think for yourself and don’t need a union or government to do it for you.
“And like I posted, you should only be supporting the same type deal……
Business model/profits/plan must be shown.”
============================================
You care to show where I have said anything different?? It’s just so much of talk radio yesterday was belly-aching how the Detroit Three were asking for BAILOUT money… In reality, they were asking for LOAN money… MAJOR difference there….
Any business loan needs to have a business model/profits/plan…. Chrysler did in the 80’s…
I also had a K Car in the late 80’s… it was a used one… ran like a top!! And yea, I had to replace the timing BELT… but that is just good maintenance… And that Mitsubishi engine is just as good NOW as it was then… in fact, better!!
Wichiwoman you are right about the bonus. The difference is that these bonus’s were earned. The workers knew going in that to make up the lost income they had to produce quality and quanity. They did and thus they ‘earned’ the bonus.
That is my point exactly. Unions have dumbed down the work force teaching them that they deserve more for not producing. Imagine a worker that makes 95% of their base salary for not working. This worked as well as paying farmers not to plant fields.
As a nation we have to get back to the roots of what brought us to where we are today. Reward productivity not laziness. We have a blogger here that brags daily that he will not work for the ‘man’. He is also a big union supporter. Go figure. Imagine a nation of this kind of person. Now look at where we are today. We are a nation of whinners that want to support our current living standards while also wanting to do less and less.
Let them file BR and reorganize. This seems to be the only long term solution.
Ben not sure if it was a belt or chain. He just told us with those very reliable little engines that was what went wrong 99% of the time.
C’mon, Sol–
Quit playing Nathan on me.
If Wal-Mart allowed unions, don’t you think the biggest company in the world would have one by now?
Just saw an AP story which, in summary, reports that there will be a demand made upon the “Big Three”; come back to Congress with a business plan on how the proposed loan proceeds are to be used, and Congress will schedule a vote in December.
I’m sure there will be more to come as the day progresses.
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:05 pm | Permalink
Just as I figured… Bash on the CEO’s, and fawn all over Limbaugh…. Limbaugh flies on his private jets… Limbaugh is a “CEO” of a different sort… and yet produces nothing, but advertising revenue… Employs only a handful of nincompoops that bow and scrape to his every whim of fancy…
AND, like many on the Blog, he bitches about Government… LOL
Athletes have UNIONS… powerful UNIONS… They have collective bargaining… and they pay their Agents big $$$$!!!
Actors/actresses also have a UNION…. AND they have Agents… Many of them are also the CEO of their own production companies…
Now, how are we talking about something different??? Hmmmm???
————————-
Chass thank you for making my point. We are discussing car companies and not talk radio. How talk show hosts, sports figures and movie stars negotiate their contracts while it might be interesting is certainly off topic.
Glad you saw that.
If you google “walmart union busting,” you get 109,000 results.
Wal-Mart’s union busting operator named by US authorities for illegally threatening workers
Stacking the vote when workers decide on union recognition is just one of the ways that Arkansas based retail giant Wal-Mart wants to keep UNI Commerce affiliate UFCW out of its workplaces. The reasons are clear: Wal-Mart wants to continue to pay sub-standard wages and deny workers proper medical insurance.
Union busting operatives fly out from the Bentonville headquarters whenever there are signs of trade union activity in a store. And they do not just come there to talk with workers. Intimidation, pressure and threats are the agenda. In twenty-five US states, the company has had to face legal complaints about violations of workers’ rights.
Systematic union busting in South Carolina
Wal-Mart’s war on its workers claimed its latest victims in Aiken, South Carolina where the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) is prosecuting Wal-Mart for waging an illegal, systematic union-busting campaign against workers. The NLRB is also charging Wal-Mart for violations of federal law in Palestine and Jacksonville, Texas.
In Aiken, South Carolina, a corporate union buster from Wal-Mart’s Bentonville, Arkansas headquarters, Kirk Williams, is named for illegally threatening workers in an attempt to undermine workers’ efforts to organize a union. This is the third time the NLRB has named Mr. Williams for illegal anti-worker activities around the country.
The Board also charged that Wal-Mart illegally denied several workers their right to have co-workers witness any interviews with managers. Among other things, workers were told that the right to a witness, known in labor law as an employee’s “Weingarten rights,” “did not hold water at [Wal-Mart],” even though two Circuit Courts of Appeal have upheld the right.
This right to a witness is especially important to Wal-Mart workers because a common company practice is to surround employees in disciplinary interviews with an intimidating group of managers.
http://www.union-network.org/unisite/Sectors/Commerce/Multinationals/Wal-Mart_union_busting_operator_named_for_threatening_workers.htm
CapnAmerica
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:04 pm | Permalink
“Where in the law does it allow management to harass & fire people who support unions?”
Gee, I dunno.
Let’s ask all the Wal-Mart workers who have unionized.
Wait a minute, there aren’t any.
WHY?
Because every Wal-Mart worker who attempts to organize quickly becomes a former Wal-Mart worker.
———————————————
And where’s the documentation for this?
I wish Walmart would become a Union shop. Prices would go up instantly, customers would btich, and Walmart would go broke!
I hate Walmart. And I know hardly any of you Libs ever shop at Walmart, cause you hate supporting those Union Bashing Companies.
avtolle
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:18 pm | Permalink
Just saw an AP story which, in summary, reports that there will be a demand made upon the “Big Three”; come back to Congress with a business plan on how the proposed loan proceeds are to be used, and Congress will schedule a vote in December.
I’m sure there will be more to come as the day progresses.
—————
I hope that what they bring back addresses their own compensation, other top officers compensation and a intent to negotiate with the unions a plan to pay their workers and lower benefits to a rate that will be profitable for both the companies and workers.
OkO lies that Unions have dumbed down the work force teaching them that they deserve more for not producing. Imagine a worker that makes 95% of their base salary for not working.
I worked for the Steelworkers Union and the Teamsters Union.
I and everybody there worked our asses off all day long.
You got any proof that unions create featherbedding?
Any convictions Capn?
Oh, and number of Google Hits. That seals your argument!
There’s 492,000 Google Hits on Capn America.
BFD!
CapN, maybe the NLRB can have a look at WalMart’s job application while they’re at it… They ask all kinds of questionable crap in their “assessment” part of the App…
Oh and Capn, what’s the total number of Unfair Labor Practice charges against Walmart, and how many convictions?
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:24 pm | Permalink
CapN, maybe the NLRB can have a look at WalMart’s job application while they’re at it… They ask all kinds of questionable crap in their “assessment” part of the App…
—————————————–
Name One Item and cite the source you LIAR!
I wonder if it hurts to be as stupid as jj and max.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/election/94112.php
The Google is your friend. Google “walmart + union busting” and see what you get.
Then Google ” walmart + union support” and see what you get.
nitwits
Chas is always making siht up, or quoting from DailyKos without citing DailyKos as his source of all knowledge.
Capn as I have said before my husband was in a union for 23 years. He could tell you stories of just this. He could tell you stories of being threatened because he was putting out too much product and the union said it would raise required quotas. He could tell you stories of union workers playing cards for over 3 hours each day because they made their quota and couldn’t do anymore ‘work’. I know what of I speak.
Dumbed down – yes – expect something for nothing – you betcha ya. Do you see this attitude in anyone on this blog?
Why should workers NOT be entitled to a good, reasonable level of benefits… They do, in effect, “sell” themselves to the company… Remember the issues of the Steelworkers, and the UMW, and hey, pull out the old Pullman Strike literature…. Not to mention the huge benefits to the textile workers, and more recently, the United Farm Workers…. WHY are so many of you fools SO adamantly opposed to workers rights and benefits???
Sounds SO UnAmerican to me…. :-)
Farmie while you are wondering about jj and max you really need to put chass in that group. The man lies more than he breaths. I challenge anyone on this board to walk into a Walmart, sit down at one of their application computers and find even one of the questions Chass claims are there.
He doesn’t help your side at all with his lies.
And Capn don’t call me a liar for writing about things we experienced for years. The facts about unions aren’t always pretty. They had their place many years ago but have been taken over by mortal men who don’t always have the best interest of their member at heart.
Google “walmart + unfair labor practices + convictions”.
See what you get.
Really. Does it hurt to be that dumb?
Farmgirl, you got nuthin but name calling.
There’s no conviction of Walmart for a labor practice violation in your link.
Try again you doorknob buster!
Jesus WEPT grmie. I worked for IBEW and CWA too, and I could tell you MORE stories that would curl your hair.
If “stories” were all that were needed to gain a conviction, there would be no need for the NLRB.
“Not to mention the huge benefits to the textile workers”
And Chass where are the textiles workers that got these huge benefits? Well they are the unemployed people you see in the south, living by the closed plants and wondering why all of they jobs went overseas.
Yep that is a major union victory!
OK, I agree, Chas lies all the time.
And Farmthing isn’t too far behind him.
BTW, closing the doors on a company that has voted to unionize is perfectly legal.
The Libs here would want armed Federal Troops to force companies to stay open and force companies to agree to any and all demands of employees.
And let’s keep funding these unprofitable union companies with BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars.
After all, money grows on trees.
Jesus, that’s the problem with answering a con question or doing their research for them and giving an example.
One’s too many and a hundred’s not enough.
Google it. You’ll see.
But only if you are not willfully blind.
You still havent answered my question about how much it hurts to be THAT stupid.
OkO sits like a spider and writes the unions are forced to pay their workers less and lower their benefits.
Hey, OkO, besides assuaging your envy, how will lowering their pay benefit you? Or benefit society?
Answer, it won’t.
People like you hate unions because you want to believe the myth that “rugged individualism” is all one needs for a good life.
It is not. It is a lie.
Unionism more than anything else created access to the American dream in the 20th Century.
The small-minded cling to their comfortable beliefs that “I can do it all . . . by myself” and so help the plutocracy to enslave them and their fellow Americans.
ksfarmgrrl
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:34 pm | Permalink
Jesus WEPT grmie
——————
You can always tell when a person has a weak argument because they resort to name calling and demeaning statements.
Oh that would mean that every point you make is weak!
Let’s try to be nice Sandra.
“Oh and Capn, what’s the total number of Unfair Labor Practice charges against Walmart, and how many convictions?”
Considering that NLRB is controlled by GeorgeWPEBush, the answer is absolutely none.
Of course.
Why would any thinking human expect anything different?
Capn writes:
“Hey, OkO, besides assuaging your envy, how will lowering their pay benefit you? Or benefit society?”
We as a nation could bail out this industry. But what would that accomplish. It would prolong the agony because without union concessions, chopping the excess in management, getting rid of incompetent CEOs we are just delaying the inevitable.
I don’t hate unions. I just see them through eyes with the blinders gone. You tell me why on Gods green earth we should continue with tax dollars to overpay the auto workers while we have workers out in the rest of the nation, better qualified, more educated, working for less money and paying more in taxes so we can keep paying these workers outlandish salaries for what they contribute.
Reality check! It is past time.
“Dumbed down – yes – expect something for nothing – you betcha ya. Do you see this attitude in anyone on this blog?”
****
Yes, I see it with you, OkO.
But I’m glad to see you have followed the right-wing mantra for Happiness and Godliness and started your own small business . . . with help from prison convict labor.
Do you have the keys to the shackels?
And don’t they need some whips snapped across their backs about this time of day?
Okobserver,
Still waiting to hear why you think the Boeing sale to Spirit was because of bennies.
OTOH, while I can certainly agree that there are many lazy workers, I attribute that more to personal work ethic. I know many union and non-union who bust buns all day. I also know many union and non-union that don’t do squat. Not sure how we place blame for it except on personal responsibility, IMHO. Same for the whining aspect.
Jesus anti, I already posted my own name when tippy was trolling me. Wingnuts here have already linked to websites with articles about me. It’s not like I’m hiding. Unlike your cowardly ass.
You are just a few years too late.
What a sad little human. Knock yerself out. It doesnt change your posts.
Any other earth shaking news you’d like to share?
nitwit. Do you post drunk during the day, too? Or just at night?
outlandish salaries for auto workers . . .
Yeah, 50,000 a year.
We better be careful. Next thing you know, blue collar workers will be able to buy one of the cars they make . . .
Meanwhile, the 20 MILLION dollar salary that president of GM makes is in no way “outlandish” if you’re Oko.
The self-righteous hypocrisy of the right is sickening.
It’s not like I’m hiding. Unlike your cowardly ass.
——————-
How am I hiding?
Any other earth shaking news you’d like to share?
I hear Farmie raises chickens!!!
Do you post drunk during the day, too?
Only when I’m at work…
Have you posted your own full name?
Or are you just ashamed AND hiding?
Can I play the Google game too?
Google -union killing gm-
about 3,210,000 hits
Again Capn as with your buddy BJ you have no concept of what small businesses do to excel. You put in all of your own money to get it started and then you work 80 hour weeks so you can protect your investment. In the process you hire people looking for jobs and give them living wages and benefits. Sometimes not even drawing a check when you pay these employees. All this so some idiot on a blog that doesn’t have a brain just a chain connected to a union boss that he is led around by.
And as for the Community Corrections employees we sometimes have. Well I am waiting for BJ and his
‘conservative friend’ which in itself is an oxymoron, to tell the blog how these employees can be exploited.
They don’t wear leg chains or work with handcuffs idiot. These are men and women that have served time for crimes they committed and have to have jobs in order to get on work release. We give them jobs and they are paid to learn trades and get skills that will help them move on with their lifes. Yep we exploit them. Dumbed down just doesn’t say enough when describing the union posters here.
Have you posted your own full name?
—————–
Just my first. I didn’t know it was a requirement of the left for right bloggers to post their names? Or do you just try to figure that stuff out on your own?
Seriously, I laugh when I see how personal you lefties take this blog…..it is sad.
These are men and women that have served time for crimes they committed and have to have jobs in order to get on work release. We give them jobs and they are paid to learn trades and get skills that will help them move on with their lifes.
========
Sounds like a great program. Better to hit the ground running when you get out instead of making a U-turn and heading right back to the cell.
I wonder…
If these auto workers could somehow get the money to buy the company.
If they could buy the place and then run it. They could eliminate the CEO and all the VP positions. In fact, get rid of virtually all managers.
They could pay themselves whatever they felt was appropriate. They could charge whatever they wanted for their products.
I wonder… Just how long this company would last.
Junior? I’m certainly interested in your opinion.
WichiWomn
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:47 pm | Permalink
Okobserver,
Still waiting to hear why you think the Boeing sale to Spirit was because of bennies
—————-
In no way was this what i was saying. If that is what you got then you weren’t reading what I was saying.
The workers took a salary cut against the possible bonus. They ‘earned’ that bonus. That was my point. This happens everyday in normal business without union interference. Merit pay is nothing new.
—————
CapnAmerica
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Permalink
outlandish salaries for auto workers . . .
Yeah, 50,000 a year.
We better be careful. Next thing you know, blue collar workers will be able to buy one of the cars they make . . .
Meanwhile, the 20 MILLION dollar salary that president of GM makes is in no way “outlandish” if you’re Oko.
The self-righteous hypocrisy of the right is sickening.
—————
Capn if you haven’t read up thread where I advocated canning the CEO or at the very least cutting their pay signigicantly you aren’t reading my posts.
Be honest with yourself.
“Just my first. I didn’t know it was a requirement of the left for right bloggers to post their names? Or do you just try to figure that stuff out on your own?”
I dont care enough about you or your name to lift a finger. A troll is a troll is a troll. That’s the only name I need for you.
You, on the other hand, care waaaaaay too much about me. Go get a belly rub from your wife. I dont do trolls.
OkO–
A CON hiring CONvicts out of the goodness of her heart.
So you’re saying that you don’t profit from this arrangement?
Isn’t that like a sin for you people?
Anti it really is a good program and not without risks to the employer. We have had good and bad experiences. You are responsible for them from the time they are picked up in the morning until they are returned at night. They can’t work on out of town jobs. If you aren’t going to have them back right on time you have to call and explain why.
Many employers think this is more trouble than they need which is why it is hard to find them jobs.
But BJ and Capn the big union guys here want to take away this chance for them. Go figure.
I dont care enough about you or your name to lift a finger.
————-
Uh huh….
Look, I am not going to spat with you. But I will leave you with this, don’t invite rattle snakes into your house and expect not to get bitten.
I suggest we go back to our normal bickering and lighten up a bit.
I suggest you go phcuk yourself.
Tell ya what. I’ll put you on ignore and you can put me on ignore.
Like I said. I dont do trolls.
Capn in the respect that a business owner can ‘profit’ from an employee I guess we do. Would I profit more by hiring an experienced person that has knowledge of what he is doing of course I would.
You are so blinded by your own prejuidices that you look at a program set up to assist convicts who have served their time to return to society you are truly blinded to what we do here. That is your problem and certainly not mine.
We don’t do what we do to get yours and BJ approval. We do it because we see an opportunity to help someone down on their luck something you just can’t see. Blinded by the union. I guess so.
Tell ya what. I’ll put you on ignore and you can put me on ignore.
=========================
Fair enough.
#
mom
Posted November 20, 2008 at 8:09 am | Permalink
Regular – go look in the mirror and you won’t see a mature adult. I remember someone with your nic who went off ranting and raving about a damn pencil like a chicken with its head off when I asked simple questions that you couldn’t answer.
——————
I didn’t attack any posters, I made a comment on an industry.
To duh Libs they can’t tell any difference if I comment on one of their sacred cows like unions.
Capn one thing I didn’t say that is very important. With all of the lies Chass has told about questions that can legally be asked, well he didn’t tell the one ‘Have you even been convicted of a felony?’
For most employers this is a dead end for the applicant. If they can put on that app that the answer is yes but they have a work history since getting out and they have skills to do the job you are hiring for this will get them a second look.
Many work release people are away from their home base and so don’t even have family to fall back on.
You and BJ just knock yourself out.
Okobserver, your post at 10:23 was:
Wages and benefits were one of the major reason Boeing dumped this part of their organization.
—————
If I have misunderstood your statement then I apologize, I am simply looking for more clarification on that sentence. Thanks.
For those that are google-challenged (and anyone who is due for a laugh)
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/
Isn’t Chrysler really Dalhmer-Benz? Why are we discusssing the bail out of a German firm? GM because of their split brand dealers and are being eaten alive by their “young”. GM is way too populated with dealerships and closing some is proving expensive by reason of law suits, and many Chev-Olds Dealers are suing over the dropping of the Olds nameplate. So streamling to stay competitive is being hindered by the same mouths the GM hand has been feeding for decades. Chrysler (D-B) got lucky in their rebirth years ago in getting rid of loosing brands and picking up Jeep from the AMC debacle. It’s not all production costs, lots of non P&L entries are leading to disaster. What we got is very productive American workers being bad mouthed by bean counters who understand the entries on a Balance Sheet, but not what prompted the entries.
okobserver
Posted November 20, 2008 at 1:32 pm | Permalink
Farmie while you are wondering about jj and max you really need to put chass in that group. The man lies more than he breaths. I challenge anyone on this board to walk into a Walmart, sit down at one of their application computers and find even one of the questions Chass claims are there.
============================================
Either (1) You have never read a WalMart app…. or (2) You are willfully unaable to read English!!!
I vote for # 1 & 2
But, hey sonshine, ou keep up your LIES… Maybe some day you will actually believe them yourself!!!
And you make an ASS out of yourself when you keep on ASSuming that I have filled those things out for myself… I tried to get on at Dillons ONCE… However, in my line of work, I OFTEN help others fill out job apps… especially if they arent familiar with using computers…
So, why dont you stop your freakin LIES, and stick to something of substance, that actually means something!!! B*tch!!!
Okie, I guess if you cant prove me wrong, maybe you had better just dummy up about your phony accusations…. Cause, dearie, I can back it all up!!! YOURM MOVE!!
Wichiwomn I actually think this was a bad move on Boeing part. I think that at the time they were losing market share to Airbus which was being subsidized by the EU. They couldn’t compete. This was an easy out and did raise the value of the company for a while. They were going to put the bulk of their money into developing the military side which they saw as more profitable.
This didn’t go as planned and now we see Boeing laying off in the military section. I’m not sure what this will do to the Boeing of the future
Another news piece I saw earlier this week that might hurt both them and Spirit concerned the 737’s. There is a defective part on many of them. They have grounded several and delayed delivery on many. This is a part installed by Spirit and from what I understand there are 100’s of these on all 737’s.
I’m not against unions. I just see the damage greed can do to an industry and when the adjusted salary with wages and bennies of an union auto worker is so much higher than non-union shops.
Total Compensation Per Hour, 2007-2008 (includes wages and all benefits):
Big Three automakers — $73.08
Toyota — $48.00
All workers — $28.48
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2008/11/13/aps-auto-bailout-coverage-nearly-ignores-excessive-labor-costs-uaws-conc
The average guy on the street is at $28 and they are asking this guy to pay higher taxes so they can continue to draw $73. Just doesn’t seem fair does it?
okob:
Let’s put this in perspective:
Mr. Limbaugh has 16-20 million listeners.
That means that 280 million Americans DON’T listen to him.
“…well he didn’t tell the one ‘Have you even been convicted of a felony?’”
Well, DAYYYUM Jenius…. That one wasnt on the LIST that was posted…. And you’re still on the rag over it??? Jeez, woman…
You have got some kind of weird complex!!!
That question is on nearly ALL apps…. It also says a YES answer may not affect the possibility of employment… Or did you miss that since you are SO friggin intent on FLAMING ME????
Okie… JUST STOP WITH YOUR UTTER STUPIDITY!!
Mr. Limbaugh is not asking for a bailout.
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:41 pm | Permalink
Okie, I guess if you cant prove me wrong, maybe you had better just dummy up about your phony accusations…. Cause, dearie, I can back it all up!!! YOURM MOVE!!
————-
well chass that is what we keep asking for. Prove your wild assertions. It is scary that someone has to depend on you for guidance in anything. This reminds me of your SS guidance.
Heaven help us.
#
mrcontroversy
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:46 pm | Permalink
okob:
Let’s put this in perspective:
Mr. Limbaugh has 16-20 million listeners.
That means that 280 million Americans DON’T listen to him.
———————-
Not counting the three in your office, how many people listen to your TV station?
Does this require fingers and toes? :D
mrcontroversy
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:46 pm | Permalink
okob:
Let’s put this in perspective:
Mr. Limbaugh has 16-20 million listeners.
That means that 280 million Americans DON’T listen to him.
——————-
And your point is? Have your taxes gone up because of Rush Limbaugh?
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008811170379
6 myths about the Detroit 3
BY MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world’s largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide — about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and ’90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that “Ford’s reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers.” The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands’ overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that’s killing them now.
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies’ lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan’s full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don’t build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
And you’re still on the rag over it???
You have got some kind of weird complex!!!
JUST STOP WITH YOUR UTTER STUPIDITY!!
More from the hate filled, stroked out, all caps pastor.
OkO admits they hire the CONvict labor because they make money on the deal.
Wow.
You’re such a saint.
Chass
“Well, DAYYYUM Jenius…. That one wasnt on the LIST that was posted…. And you’re still on the rag over it??? Jeez, woman… ”
Read this slowly you moron. It wasn’t on the list because those were not legal questions. The felon question is ‘legal’.
Before you post you really should read what you are saying . It makes you look even dumber.
I think toyots does ship most of their components in, and mainly just assembles in the U.S., much like Airbus would’ve done with the tankers.
Heard the union guy today say hundreds of millions were given by Alabama in incentives to land the assembly plants, so why not help our manufacturers?
Japan does finance a large part of their auto industry’s R&D. Japan has always had a reputation for working closely between govt. and bus.
Heard an economist say today that the theory of ‘comparative advantage’ where a country will produce what they are best fitted for has gone out the window.
“sursum” struts his ignorance –
“Isn’t Chrysler really Dalhmer-Benz? Why are we discusssing the bail out of a German firm?”
Y’know, “sussum,” it’s really frustrating to deal with CONs who spew for half a day and then realize they know absolutely nothing about which they’re talking.
No.
Daimler-Benz sold Chrysler in 2007.
It was in the papers.
No cap that is not what I said. You must be one of those poor union workers for which reading skills aren’t required.
Do you and chass secretly email?
“The average guy on the street is at $28 and they are asking this guy to pay higher taxes so they can continue to draw $73. Just doesn’t seem fair does it?”
___________________________________________
WHAT doesnt seem fair, is that you are SO stupid as to compare the average guy on the street with the auto worker… And how the HELL to you figure that a guy on the street making $28/hr. is going to pay higher taxes??? Do you actually believe that $28/hr. is going to be more than $250K??? I dont think $28/hr. comes anywhere CLOSE to $250K per year… AFTER deductions…
For somebody who brags incessantly about your bookkeeping knowledge, you certainly dont show it here!! Get out your calculator….
Oh yea, how does the guy on the street have anything at all to do with the hourly wage of the auto worker’s salary??? The auto worker sure as hell isnt being paid by tax payer dollars!!!
What was that brand of kool aid you been drinking???
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/oligopoly_and_the_fall_of_the.html
Interesting piece concerning the creation of an oligopoly by the “Big Three” post World War II, and the author’s take on why it occurred, why this led to these companies being in their current position, and speculation on what will become the auto industry in the U.S.
What was that brand of kool aid you been drinking???
————
Idiot.
On a harvest moon, cruising the river via row boat with your honey, should one wear broad or narrow suspenders?
Regular
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:58 pm | Permalink
On a harvest moon, cruising the river via row boat with your honey, should one wear broad or narrow suspenders?
=============
How big of a gal you got in that row boat?
ALRIGHT Okie….
Is it LEGAL for an app. to ask for your Social Security Number????
Is it LEGAL for them to ask marital status???
Is it LEGAL for them to ask for a next of kin reference… when that next of kin is your spouse???
Is it LEGAL for them to ask what YEAR you graduated High School???
Let’s see your answers to those… eh???
Oh yea, is it LEGAL for them to ask if you can prove your eligibility to work in the US???
#
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 3:03 pm | Permalink
ALRIGHT Okie….
Is it LEGAL for an app. to ask for your Social Security Number????
Is it LEGAL for them to ask marital status???
Is it LEGAL for them to ask for a next of kin reference… when that next of kin is your spouse???
Is it LEGAL for them to ask what YEAR you graduated High School???
Let’s see your answers to those… eh???
====================
All of the above, it’s legal.
You just have to be judicial how and in what order you ask it.
Like for the High School question?
Did you attend high school?
How many years did you complete?
Did your high school give diplomas?
Did you receive such a diploma?
How many years was it before the age of thirty did you last attend High School?
#
ANTI
Posted November 20, 2008 at 3:02 pm | Permalink
Regular
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:58 pm | Permalink
On a harvest moon, cruising the river via row boat with your honey, should one wear broad or narrow suspenders?
=============
How big of a gal you got in that row boat?
——————
Not real sure, she sat on my axe handle, haven’t seen it since…
ANTI
Posted November 20, 2008 at 3:02 pm | Permalink
Regular
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:58 pm | Permalink
On a harvest moon, cruising the river via row boat with your honey, should one wear broad or narrow suspenders?
=============
How big of a gal you got in that row boat?
===========================================
I see one of the Blog TROLLS has made another idiotic appearance… Wont be long now, and the sock puppets will attemnpt another takeover…
Not real sure, she sat on my axe handle, haven’t seen it since…
————
LOL!
Is it LEGAL for them to ask if you are a retarded ‘new age’ pastor named chas who seems to keep hitting the caps lock key?
Sometimes, SOL, you post just as stupid as Nathan!! ROFL!!
Is it LEGAL for them to ask what YEAR you graduated High School???
Absolutely not.
And you can’t ask next of kin unless you hire them.
I guess that was supposed to be an insult. I don’t agree with everything he posts, but I have nothing against the man. I thank him for his service.
Okob,
Did’t you say you used to work in HR? I think that gives you a little more ‘cred’ than the spastic hate filled pastor.
Okie, since most people graduate High School at the age of 18, Asking when you graduate High School, is the same thing as asking how old you are… And yes, I know some might be 17, or 19, but it puts you in an age bracket… So, what makes it legal??
And is one answer all you got???
How many years was it before the age of thirty did you last attend High School?
Reg I’m not even sure I could have gotten away that one.
okobserver
Posted November 20, 2008 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
And you can’t ask next of kin unless you hire them.
==========================================
That is a standard question on almost all apps right now… My daughter just filled out about TEN this week…. it was on each one…
So, piss on your knowledge of facts… ROFL!!
Wait a minute, Chas are you outside ‘the home’?
Regular… I call BS on your comments above… I say those are NOT legal questions… Good grief, Career Builder even says CLEARLY to not give your social security number on a job app… SOME companies list it as optional… others mark it with the obligtory *
Job applications are just dumb anyway. They are going to get the information they want anyway, regardless of what you fill in.
One has to fill in any gaps when asked by the interviewer, for those times in between employment. Security checks most always shows dates of employments.
Whatever the question may be there are ways around asking it that is legitimate.
“Never give your social security number to a prospective employer, provide credit card or bank account information, or perform any sort of monetary transaction. Learn More >>”
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?IPATH=JEVHRA&jrjob=true&Job_DID=J3I6LH6ZQHXTHKZH476
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 3:30 pm | Permalink
“Never give your social security number to a prospective employer, provide credit card or bank account information, or perform any sort of monetary transaction. Learn More >>”
======================
Did it ever cross your little mind that is for ONLINE security???
Baaaah! EFSkgero !!! roijgRRRRRRRRRRR???
Hmmmmmmmm???
Remember boys and girls, always keep your kerchief dry and your boots pulled on tight.
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin’ until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we’re together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, ’till we meet again.
Some trails are happy ones,
Others are blue.
It’s the way you ride the trail that counts,
Here’s a happy one for you.
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin’ until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we’re together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, ’till we meet again.
“Never give your social security number to a prospective employer,..”
How does the prospective employer do a background check without the Social Security Number?
The link Chas gave says “online”.
It has been a few years since I have hired or fired but without a SSN, I never hired. Maybe the law has changed.
IIRC, a background check is not to be done until a conditional offer for employment is made. At the point where the conditional offer is made, then some of the information such as SSN may be obtained for that purpose.
VT – good to see you back – with your well-reasoned comments.
Farmie, have you read Values Boy today?
Dennis
okobserver
Posted November 20, 2008 at 3:17 pm | Permalink
Is it LEGAL for them to ask what YEAR you graduated High School???
Absolutely not.
—————–
Just for you. Chass you can’t ask what year they graduated from high school. No question that would appear to be backing into asking them how old they are.
I was in HR for years and know this like the back of my hand.
That’s how I know Chass is blowing smoke.
BS Okie… EVERY friggin App I have ever filled out, and every one I have ever helped with wants Name and Address of High School; AND “Did you graduate?” and YEAR… Geez… I dont think you have ever seen the inside of an HR office… not judging by your stupidity here……
Okie, I dont give a damn WHAT you think you know… They DO ask what year your graduated High School… AND College, and beyond….
This is just to REGISTER to apply at this one….
Have you registered or worked for Grafton?:
Are you bondable? (Yes or No):
* Have you ever been convicted of a felony?Yes or No:
Have you worked as a Contractor/Temporary?:
If yes, with whom?:
What is your preferred location to work in town?:
* Who is your emergency contact?:
* List an emergency contact phone number.:
Alternate emergency contact phone number:
Who is your alternate emergancy contact
Chas – I don’t think I have had ANY employer ask about my high school. Maybe that is because they assume it ‘underneath’ my college degrees.
In fact, it is sort of funny when I say ‘ya’ll’ and they look at my resume which is all in the North, West and MidWest. High school was in Georgia so I still have a bit of that language.
One time I was trapped inside a Wal-Mart as my sisters went shopping for stuff and, to pass time, I sat down at the Employment Application computer station and went through “The Test.”
I used a fake name, address, SS#, and stuff, just to get to the next questions.
They’re very crafty at Wal-Mart “Human” Relations.
All those years about high school reveal a general age parameter.
They ask for details of every job you’ve ever held… including contact numbers, supervisors’ names and titles and phone extensions. (And if you happen to get hired and happen to mention the word “union,” you can be fired “for failure to reveal accurate information in the job application.” It’s happened. Read the Arkansas court records sometime.
One of the strangest post “1984″ consequences that would have blown Orwell’s mind is how it’s not the government that’s turned into “Big Brother,” it’s Big Bidness.
I’ve worked in corporate marketing and have been around the block a few times regarding customer research.
With a cartoon character lizard on television I can get you to call up a perfect stranger (well, not “perfect,” exactly, since a lot of the “operators standing by” are incarcerated in state and federal prisons) and reveal you SS#, credit card numbers, employment history, your kids’ names, your license plate number, the status of your gall bladder, and whether your loose teenager is taking the pill.
Before the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act, even the government couldn’t gather that much information without a court order.
And CONs are worried about embryos and same-gender marriage.
There are laws which employers must follow when asking interview questions, there are also ways around these laws. Some example questions employers can ask are:
* Employers can’t ask your age, but can ask when you graduated
* Employers can’t ask if you have ever committed a crime, but can ask if you have been convicted of a felony
* Employers can’t ask what you did during a period of unemployment, but can ask why you have a gap in employment
* Employers can’t ask about child care, but can ask the age of the children if the topic is brought up
* Employers can’t ask about religion, but can ask if you require certain days or hours off
Don’t ask a job applicant these questions
By Joseph Anthony
You’re looking over the résumé of a job candidate. You see that he includes in a list of hobbies his volunteer work with Little League Baseball, and that he went to the same high school as you.
So as part of the getting-to-know-you aspect of the job interview, you ask him if he has any kids and when he graduated.
Great. You’ve just asked two questions that could leave you open to discrimination lawsuits.
http://www.microsoft.com/smallbusiness/resources/management/recruiting-staffing/dont-ask-a-job-applicant-these-questions.aspx#Dontaskajobapplicantthesequestions
Even an innocent remark about anything which would allow you to figure out how old the applicant is is strictly forbidden.
okob – I could add to yours “Were you at good old AHS when Cal Ransey took us to the state championship?”
I was at UCLA (grad school) and went to John Wooden’s final appearence in the Final Four. You could come to a fairly reasonable guess of my age with that.
But it becomes a Catch 22, “okobserver” –
For outfits such as Wal-Mart, an applicant who knows better than to write down high school graduation dates (or, for that matter, the SS#) is probably too much of a potential “unionist” to get considered for employment.
There was a piece in Harper’s or The New Yorker a few years ago about the ultimate irony. About the only way a person can provide the perfect employment application is if they’re a part of the Witness Protection program; They can provide “references,” phone numbers of “previous supervisors,” “exact” start-and end-dates of employment, “reason for leaving” each of the scam jobs that created a new identity. Your tax dollars at work, and all that.
And the employer always reserves the option that “if any response on the application is false or incomplete you may be subject to discipline or dismissal” language. So if you don’t mention you pulled dandelions for the neighbor lady back in ‘63 for 25-cents an hour, you can be fired “for cause.”
Get a subscription to Nexis-Lesis or Westlaw. Employer discrimination abuses are not only worse than you imagine, they’re worse than you can imagine.
Oh I know the abuses are out there. It is a game to get as much info as possible without crossing a line. As Ben said you don’t ask direct questions but you pay attention to what they talk about. You just don’t start the conversations.
As for the union questions. I’m really not sure how that works because I never hired for union jobs. I always worked in non union offices and don’t ever remember trying to find out if a person was union or not.
“Employer discrimination abuses are not only worse than you imagine, they’re worse than you can imagine.”
And why shouldn’t the employer be discriminate when hiring employees? Afterall it is THEIR business.
You guys sound like a lot of whipped dogs who have experienced first hand the rejection of not getting a job. No one can whine this much without suffering potentially serious emotional distress.
It is only human nature for you to quickly want to BLAME someone for not selecting you for the job.
But after as many rejections you all have apparently suffered – it might be time to take a check up from the neck up and look at yourself in a mirror.
I’d offer youall a kleenex but I don’t have nearly enough for all of you.
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:35 pm | Permalink
Either (1) You have never read a WalMart app…. or (2) You are willfully unaable to read English!!!
I vote for # 1 & 2
But, hey sonshine, ou keep up your LIES… Maybe some day you will actually believe them yourself!!!
And you make an ASS out of yourself when you keep on ASSuming that I have filled those things out for myself… I tried to get on at Dillons ONCE… However, in my line of work, I OFTEN help others fill out job apps… especially if they arent familiar with using computers…
So, why dont you stop your freakin LIES, and stick to something of substance, that actually means something!!! B*tch!!!
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From the phony preacher!
Shocked I tell you!
Just Shocked!
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:47 pm | Permalink
“…well he didn’t tell the one ‘Have you even been convicted of a felony?’”
Well, DAYYYUM Jenius…. That one wasnt on the LIST that was posted…. And you’re still on the rag over it??? Jeez, woman…
You have got some kind of weird complex!!!
That question is on nearly ALL apps…. It also says a YES answer may not affect the possibility of employment… Or did you miss that since you are SO friggin intent on FLAMING ME????
Okie… JUST STOP WITH YOUR UTTER STUPIDITY!!
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Using the Lord’s name in Vain, and Damning others.
HD Chaplain’s gonna slap this guy!
A funny – we have all heard about applicants claiming degrees they don’t have etc. A ‘casual’ question can really catch those – for example “how did you like camp cooking at WSU geology?” A cheat would probably make up something about rather ordinary food. Fact is – we ate like kings – over a fire! (But we had to do cleanup) I loved it – the only time I could eat like that and not gain weight.
Fact is – there are all sorts of ‘inside jokes’ that can come up if the interviewer imself knows the background.
The UAW made a good case today.
The big three frequently have to compete with foreign stick em together here car companies that get all SORTS of government aid and incentive.
I’ve worked manufacture. If you want to find the problems and waste, look in management.
okob – I have been in the union situation – and we specifically WANTED OCAW members. The reason – they had an apprentice program and we could then count on ertain skills. We worked in a hazardous environment and needed that.
It helped that I kept good relations with the shop steward. He would ignore ‘technical’ violations of the rules as long as I treated my people fairly. We worked together well.
Chas
Posted November 20, 2008 at 2:55 pm | Permalink
“The average guy on the street is at $28 and they are asking this guy to pay higher taxes so they can continue to draw $73. Just doesn’t seem fair does it?”
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WHAT doesnt seem fair, is that you are SO stupid as to compare the average guy on the street with the auto worker… And how the HELL to you figure that a guy on the street making $28/hr. is going to pay higher taxes??? Do you actually believe that $28/hr. is going to be more than $250K??? I dont think $28/hr. comes anywhere CLOSE to $250K per year… AFTER deductions…
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Mental Math Midget too.
“I’ve worked manufacture. If you want to find the problems and waste, look in management.”
Yeah, right JR. WTF is pushing carts at Dillions and asking people if they want plastic or paper have to do with “worked manufacture” (whatever the helell that means!)
I’ve never worked at Dillons there “roach”. Nothing wrong in those who do. YOU seem very familiar with the work.
JJ I gave up on Chass hours ago. He just doesn’t have the mental capacity to know any better I have decided.
Ben I can understand what you are saying. We had something similar in the accounting field. It was called AccountTemps. You couldn’t just have a temp come in off the street and do even menial bookkeeping tasks. We did this without having a union. I was able to request the same person and usually get them.
NO JR, I swore I saw an old post of yours where you had applied for a job at Dillions. Been some time ago. I guess you just didn’t get the job.
okobserver
Posted November 20, 2008 at 8:16 pm | Permalink
JJ I gave up on Chass hours ago. He just doesn’t have the mental capacity to know any better I have decided.
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Oh I know, but isn’t it fun to watch him type in all CAPS!
His worse lie – claiming to be a Christian Pastor.
Obviously, he pays lip service just for the money.
(I hope enjoys some enthusiastic singing this Sunday!)
RoaCH
Posted November 20, 2008 at 8:26 pm | Permalink
NO JR, I swore I saw an old post of yours where you had applied for a job at Dillions. Been some time ago. I guess you just didn’t get the job.
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They tried to train him to return carts from the parking lot, but he couldn’t figure it out.
JJ I know I saw a long time poster’s post with info from JR himself on his failure to get hired by Dillions.
Perhaps he applied for a management position there. They do consider shelf stockers to be management. Pet food and cans, make way for the glass jars of the pickle aisle. Real talent in that.
BTW Mitt Romney is right: Screw Detroit.
Lot’s of industries and companies are hurting. The only thing special about Detroit is all the union and corporate dollars which have flowed into our political leaders pockets over the years.
Like the steel industry, the automakers have to fail to rise again.
The Phoenix.
“JJ I know I saw a long time poster’s post with info from JR himself on his failure to get hired by Dillions.”
And having seen it, you will be glad to provide a link?
Well, would you look at that?? They deleted my copy/paste of the Davis Moore Job App that I posted earlier…. Hmmmmm…..
Whatever the government does to help the auto manufacturers survive I hope it includes busting the union down.
That will be great, a Democrat Congress and President busting the UAW, ha!!!
“They tried to train him (BlueJay) to return carts from the parking lot, but he couldn’t figure it out.”
Without a union BlueJay can’t survive.