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Once again science prevails in uncovering new knowledge. Creationists, on the other hand, spend their days trying to determine if the non-existent global flood on Earth managed to properly punish aliens for their sins.
Massive frozen water reservoirs discovered on Mars
WASHINGTON (AFP) – NASA scientists have discovered enormous underground reservoirs of frozen water on Mars, away from its polar caps, in the latest sign that life might be sustainable on the Red planet.
Ground-penetrating radar used by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter reveals numerous huge glaciers up to one half-mile thick buried beneath layers of rock and debris. Researchers said one glacier is three time the size of Los Angeles in area.
“All together, these glaciers almost certainly represent the largest reservoir of water ice on Mars that’s not in the polar caps,” said John Holt, a geophysicist at the University of Texas at Austin and lead author of a report about the discovery, which appears in the November 21 issue of the journal Science.
“In addition to their scientific value, they could be a source of water to support future exploration of Mars,” said Holt.
More at:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Massive_underground_water_reservoirs_discovered_on_1120.html
Another dissenter: Global warming ideas disputed by PSU prof
Dr. James Koermer, a meteorology professor at Plymouth State University (NH)
While a large number of people, including some scientists, believe that we are in an unprecedented period of global warming caused primarily by humans, Dr. James Koermer, a meteorology professor at Plymouth State University, would beg to differ. During a presentation at the university on Wednesday, Koermer explained why there are a growing number scientists, such as himself, who don’t subscribe to the popular theory on global warming.
Koermer said the Earth’s climate has always changed and has experienced alternate warming and cooling trends long before the dawn of man. Koermer said most research suggests that at the beginning of the last millennium, there was a global warming period that ended around 1600, when a significant cooling trend – which he called a mini ice age – lasted for approximately 100 years. The most recent global warming trend picked up during the 1700s, which coincides with the start of the Industrial Age, Koermer said.
Going back millions of years, some research suggests the Earth has had much more extreme climate changes than are occurring today. “Over millions of years there have been periods when we have been hotter than we are today,” Koermer said. He added that while humans do have an impact on the climate, it is minimal compared to natural phenomena. He also said that humans are not the biggest producers of carbon dioxide and that the gas is not the most abundant green house gas in the atmosphere. That title goes to water vapor, which is produced by the world’s oceans.
Koermer said that water vapor is responsible for 95 percent of the green house gas effect in a given year while another 4.72 percent is caused by a mix of other greenhouse gases, including methane, nitrous oxide and carbon dioxide, which are naturally produced. Humans are only responsible for .28 percent of all greenhouse gases produced during a year, he said.
Koermer said just because he doesn’t think man-made carbon dioxide is contributing significantly to climate change, it does not mean he is opposed to the increased use of renewable fuel sources. He said that fossil fuels are a limited resource, so finding alternatives is necessary.
Koermer said scientists are not yet sure what has caused climate change in the past, but factors may include shifts in the Earth’s axis as well as changes in the orbit of the Earth around the sun. Over time, Koermer said, the Earth’s yearly path around the Sun changes from circular to more elliptical before changing back.
Sunspots and solar flares may also effect the Earth’s climate. Koermer said solar flares and spots seem to increase and decrease on an 11-year cycle. He noted that there was a marked decrease in solar flares during the mini ice age of the 1600s.
Changes in the wind patterns or atmospheric oscillations can affect global climate. The El Nino and La Nina weather patterns are an example as well as the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. “[The Earth's climate] has been swinging up and swinging down and we don’t know why, we don’t know what caused the last ice age,” Koermer said after the presentation.
Koermer said that the long-range climate models proponents of global warming often use are inaccurate. He said the most sophisticated weather prediction models are only accurate up to weeks and most meteorologists hesitate to forecast much beyond six days.
He said just as climate prediction models aren’t flawless, the methods used to estimate past temperatures, such as examining tree rings, sediment layers and ice cores, are not fool proof and are limited in what they prove.
Kevin McGuire, a fellow professor at PSU, said Koermer’s presentation was “very well done.” “I agree that there are a lot of uncertainties,” McGuire said about the causes and nature of global climate change. “I agreed with some aspects,” Katie Laro, PSU freshman and meteorology major said. “Like, how can we can know for certain that the average temperature will increase or decrease 100 years from now?”
http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081120/GJNEWS02/711203981/-1/CITNEWS08
“The most recent global warming trend picked up during the 1700s, which coincides with the start of the Industrial Age, Koermer said.
[Most interesting comment]
Going back millions of years, some research suggests the Earth has had much more extreme climate changes than are occurring today. “Over millions of years there have been periods when we have been hotter than we are today,” Koermer said.”
[Hank cant possibly believe this guy!]
“He said the most sophisticated weather prediction models are only accurate up to weeks and most meteorologists hesitate to forecast much beyond six days.”
[This would be Koermer's error. Climate Science is different from Meteorology. Climate Science is not interested in daily weather forecasts.]
Hey Chas,
Did Adam have a belly button?
“Koermer said”, “Koermer said”,”said Koermer”,”Polly want a cracker.”
Find this crap in the back of a comic book?
Sarah Palin continues to be the gift that keeps on giving.
She issued a poorly worded and rambling pardon for one turkey….
and then did an interview in front of other turkeys being slaughtered. The backdrop was HER CHOICE.
This is not for children or the faint of heart.
“http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/20/sarah-palin-holds-news-co_n_1453
I wasnt there — were you??
“‘The most recent global warming trend picked up during the 1700s, which coincides with the start of the Industrial Age, Koermer said.’
“[Most interesting comment]”
He appears to argue, of course, that this is a coincidence.
“‘Going back millions of years, some research suggests the Earth has had much more extreme climate changes than are occurring today. “Over millions of years there have been periods when we have been hotter than we are today,” Koermer said.’
“[Hank cant possibly believe this guy!]”
Well, it should be pointed out that this is true. There have been more extreme climate swings. However, this still does nothing to refute the fact that the overwhelming majority of climate scientists are seeing a very strong correlation between human activity and global climate change. Hank’s actualy problem is that, once again, he is simply posting any critic of global warming he comes across, never mind the fact that they contradict each other in fundamental ways (there is no global warming, or there is global warming but humans aren’t causing it, or never mind, global warming is good. It’s simply cutting and pasting without really making a point, other than to try to elicit responses from Chas.
Correction, comments from Chas. should read comments from Cosmos.
I guess Hank feels that Adam’s navel, or lack thereof, has something to do with Climate Science. LOL
Ok…I have a question for the evolution/creation discussion: what difference does it make? I mean..regardless of who is “right”, will it make the slightest bit of difference in your day today or tomorrow? Will it pay your bills, insure your car, lower taxes or improve your savings account?
Nope. None of the above. What will it do? Reaffirm a belief? Ok…I believe it is cold outside…the thermometer reaffirms my belief. So what? Life goes one…regardless of individual beliefs.
Sooo..I offer a compromise for everyone..God (whatever you want to call it) created life thru a series of evolutionary developments.
There. Everyone happy?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah too funny raptor but nice try.
The religious tyrants won’t stop until they can force their religion on EVERYONE.
Taliban = Republicans
“Sooo..I offer a compromise for everyone..God (whatever you want to call it) created life thru a series of evolutionary developments.”
From a sign on University Methodist Church (across the street from WSU).
“Evolution IS God’s plan”
There are obviously plenty of Christians who can accomodate the overwhelmingly supported idea of evolution.
“The MSNBC host is sure to become a viral sensation over the next few days thanks to his mighty slip of the tongue during a discussion about Barack Obama’s campaign on Monday morning. During his show ‘Morning Joe,’ Scarborough was discussing the even temperament of Obama and his associates, and went a bit too far, saying they don’t “go around flipping people off or saying f— you.” The problem, he actually said the “f— you” part.
The f-bomb caused Scarborough’s colleagues to giggle uncontrollably and look generally shocked. A female guest could be heard saying “ummm, ummm” in the background.
“Did I say the word?” Scarborough later asked. “You meant to say the letter,” a fellow MSNBC host said, saying “but we should clarify and apologize.”
Actually, my personal preference is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created evolution…touched by his Noodly Appendage (Ramen)
$5,000,000 fine for MSNBC!
EXCLUSIVE: Obama to delay repeal of ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/21/obama-to-delay-repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell/
Obama will soon find out that all the crap he promised his mindless minions will be either impossible or terribly destructive to this country if enacted. He is already backpedaling on lots of the lies he told getting elected.
It is just incredible how stupid many of his supporters/voters are.
This is incredible!
http://howobamagotelected.com/
b b b aaaaaaaawwwwwwkkkkkkkk bawk bawk bbbaaaaaaawwwwwkkkkk
The Chicken man bloggeth!
The Washington Times…
I wasn’t aware that there could be so many homophobes gathered in one spot.
Obama & Crew…..
I wasn’t aware that there could be so many homophobes gathered in one spot.
“I wasn’t aware that there could be so many homophobes gathered in one spot.”
Outside of church, you mean?
Hee hee heeeeeee mxyzptlk!
When he’s not hiding like a chicken he’s dancing like a poodle!
First, the Iraqis topple a statue of Saddam, next they topple an effigy of bush!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081121/ts_nm/us_iraq_5
But look who’s dancing, ha, ha, ha.
Like puppets, so easy to make them dance like the brainless likeness of a human….but not.
Sarah’s a turkey! Who could possibly criticize that photo op.?
46% of the vote counted and Coleman leading by 136 votes, looks like it’s Coleman’s to lose!
President Barak Hussein Obama. Just get used to the idea.
Insult Americans all you want.
Cherry-pick some silly interviews.
This is representative of what? Nothing… except a warped desire to put a major political shift into disrepute.
Talk about stupid.. “I’m afraid of Obama.. he’s a a a a a an ARAB!”
Ask those interviewed people how they have been doing under the last eight years of the Bush regime, and they would give you some clear answers.
So the people noticed Palin? Isn’t that why McCain’s team trotted out a world class dork for a running mate – just to get attention for a failing campaign.
All the attempts by the right to smear Obama failed.
Now smear the voters……
Where is the same interview done with McCain supporters?
“mxyzptlk
Posted November 21, 2008 at 9:27 am | Permalink
b b b aaaaaaaawwwwwwkkkkkkkk bawk bawk bbbaaaaaaawwwwwkkkkk
The Chicken man bloggeth!”
Agnatha,
The point being made is that AGW is not settled science. There are still those who disagree and do so with legitimate arguments as to why.
Where is the same interview done with McCain supporters?
———-
DavidB,
I posted that link ‘howobamagotelected’ last night. The point of doing so was to illustrate how naive voters are (on both sides) and the media’s influence over them.
That scares me.
People voted for a pres. because they thought they’d like to have a bbq or a beer with him, too late to claim being scared now!
‘Today’ show anchor misleads viewers about declining Mt. Kilimanjaro ice during network’s ‘green’ week.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081120114056.aspx
New satellite indicates cycle of global cooling
November 20, 2008
Several Canadian environmental scientists agree the new Jason satellite indicates at least a 23-year cycle of global cooling ahead.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story.asp?ID=269162
Phantom
Posted November 21, 2008 at 10:14 am | Permalink
People voted for a pres. because they thought they’d like to have a bbq or a beer with him, too late to claim being scared now!
==============
I don’t think you get it, Phantom.
Most Americans believe in ghosts (Holy and otherwise) and UFOs.. Go figure…
What scares me is what people aren’t talking about.
Clinton leaking her SoS selection. If she is willing to leak this kind of information to corner Barak even before she has a post, what will she do as SoS? What impact will Bill’s partnerships overseas have on Hillary’s decisions? What is Hillary’s foreign policy stance?
And back to the Biden gaffe. OK saying that Obama will be tested in his first six months may very well be accurate, but his next statement, that Obama will have a plan. That it may not seem like the right plan, but we need to support him. Not with money, but with support in the community. Telling folks it will be ok.
So Obama already has a plan for a possible action? That the plan will not be well tolerated? To disregard your instincts and just go with it?
Why is this not being reported on and being looked into? Why do people just shrug it off? Both are pretty damn scary!!!
Dr Pepper to Deliver On Its Free-Soda Promise
AP
LOS ANGELES — Dr Pepper is making good on its promise of free soda now that the release of Guns N’ Roses’ “Chinese Democracy” is a reality.
The soft-drink maker said in March that it would give a free soda to everyone in America if the album dropped in 2008. “Chinese Democracy,” infamously delayed since recording began in 1994, goes on sale Sunday.
“We never thought this day would come,” Tony Jacobs, Dr Pepper’s vice president of marketing, said in a statement. “But now that it’s here, all we can say is: The Dr Pepper’s on us.”
Beginning Sunday at 12:01 a.m., coupons for a free 20-ounce soda will be available for 24 hours on Dr Pepper’s Web site. They’ll be honored until Feb. 28.
Dr Pepper is owned by Dr Pepper Snapple Group, Inc.
“Clinton leaking her SoS selection.”
—-
Sol, where did you get this? I haven’t seen or heard anything like that. I have had an extremely busy week and haven’t paid nearly as close attention to “news” as usual and hardly ever watch news as much as read news, but anything I found that mentions Senator Clinton as a leak is mere speculation. Every member of media is watching closely — for anything that is news. Senator Clinton and her future is most enticing. It’s difficult to hide caravans of black SUVs going to President-elect Obama’s Chicago headquarters! Both she and he have secret service protection and their “doings and goings” aren’t easily hidden.
Thanx Anti. Dr. Pepper is my coke of choice !!!
#
Agnatha
Posted November 21, 2008 at 8:10 am | Permalink
“Sooo..I offer a compromise for everyone..God (whatever you want to call it) created life thru a series of evolutionary developments.”
From a sign on University Methodist Church (across the street from WSU).
“Evolution IS God’s plan”
There are obviously plenty of Christians who can accomodate the overwhelmingly supported idea of evolution.
———————
Yes, and leading evolutionists are laughing smugly at their capitulation. They don’t believe there is a God, much less one who had anything to do with life on this earth. But if some religious folks want to compromise, it is one less battle they have to fight toward their goal of a secular faith system based on the science as god.
What they don’t understand is that the one true God is the God of science and everything else. Those who believe this truth will never capitulate.
Linda,
Did you know she was on the short list for SoS? Obama’s camp is pissed about it. Soooo, his camp didn’t leak it…
Many of the Christians who accept Evolutionary theory do so for personal motivations and hardly because of any real study of the subject.
WASHINGTON – President-elect Barack Obama’s camp, well practiced in keeping secrets, is increasingly frustrated by a steady stream of leaks that insiders suspect come from confidants of Hillary Clinton, the Daily News has learned.
Just as ex-President Bill Clinton pledged Wednesday to prove there are no new skeletons in his closet that could derail his wife’s chances of becoming secretary of state, top Obama sources suggested loose-lipped Clintonistas abide by their rules: If caught leaking, you will pay the price.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/11/19/2008-11-19_team_obama_thinks_hillary_clintons_peopl.html
#
Chas
Posted November 21, 2008 at 7:32 am | Permalink
I wasnt there — were you??
__________________________________________
Nope, makes my faith just as valid as yours.
As a Chrisitan, to believe in Evolution, you have either completely compromise many of the foundations of our faith or make some really dramatic stretches of making Evolution and Creation the same thing which is even more absurd than the Evolutionists claim Creation is.
You have Creation, Evolution, and then you have those who believe in some quasi Creation~Evolution mix.
And those who believe in the quasi Evolution~Creation mix think that is more plausable yet they are still at odds with science.
How could anyone not know she is being vetted for SoS?? I haven’t been in a hole, just busy. ;-) Another stretch near as I can find — that Obama’s camp is pissed. I did do some searching and reading after I saw you make this assertion earlier in the week — can’t find anything but speculation with a touch of wanting to make spectacular what isn’t. I try to read a variety of “takes,” and when there seems to be the sensational (usually from unnamed sources) I consider the source.
Do you have a source for her leaking and him being less than pleased that is more than opinion and speculation?
Caught it on a show, Linda, so no, no source.
Sol & Linda,
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081121/D94J7UM01.html
Nope, makes my faith just as valid as yours.
True enough, but neither is science. And, being that theology is a product of human beings (whether you want to believe that or not), I find it strange that so many people can’t reconsider and adjust their doctrines in the light of evidence provided by their presumably God-given minds, while maintaining the spirit and purpose of their faiths.
It doesn’t require abandoning or betraying one’s faith unless one truly believes God is as narrow-minded and inflexible as they are. Which, in a sad way, makes sense.
And I guess it’s easier to posit a mass conspiracy of heathen/Satanist/whatever scientists out to destroy everything dear to them.
To a huge extent, one finds the exact type of thinking from the Global-Warming-Denier types, who have tried to turn Al Gore into some kind of High Priest.
Of course, in each scientific community one finds furious disagreements on details, modes of action, etc. This is normal, and healthy.
And, to the extent critics would focus their attention on the genuine debates in the scientific community (as opposed to fringe outsiders who deny even there is a consensus), everyone would be better off.
/soapboxPUT_AWAY
Here’s an Obama poster I made, using a photo shop program of course, I think it looks pretty damn slick if I say so myself. I’m a graphic artist, so it comes with the territory doing stuff like this out of boredom.
http://s437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/kctocho/?action=view¤t=BO444.jpg
How not to measure temperature, part 74
The MMTS temperature sensor is the short pole next to the half pickup truck.
For those of you that don’t know, this station is located at the wastewater treatment plant there. I’ve written many times about the placement of stations at WWTP’s being a bad idea due to the localized heat bubble that is created due to all the effluent coming though. The effect is especially noticeable in winter. Often you’ll see steam/water vapor in the air around these sites in winter, and more than one COOP observer has told our volunteers that snow sometimes does not stick to the ground at WWTP’s.
The larger pole appears to be a gas burnoff torch for excess methane. I can’t say how often it is activated (note the automatic ignitor circuit on the pole) but I can tell you that putting an official NOAA climate thermometer within a few feet of such a device is one of the worst examples of thoughtless station placement on the part of NOAA I’ve ever seen. Here is an example of a methane burn-off device at another WWTP.
We’ll probably never know what the true temperature is in Clarinda because untangling a measurements mess like this is next to impossible.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/19/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-74/
OK I concede. Maybe it wasn’t Hillary’s camp that leaked the offering. Maybe Obama can find a way around Bill’s overseas involvement.
But… What about the Biden statement?
Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years
http://www.dailytech.com/Alaskan+Glaciers+Grow+for+First+Time+in+250+years/article13215.htm
Sol,
While I’m wary of the NY Daily News, if Team Clinton is leaking for strategic reasons, that suggests a disturbing personal agenda. Whether her people would leak state secrets is a far different matter.
I think at the least she would have to convince Team Obama that such political gamesmanship would not continue after taking office.
CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) – Two sources close to the Obama transition team tell CNN retired Marine Gen. Jim Jones has emerged as President-elect’s leading choice to become national security adviser in the White House.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/
(Shaking his head. . .)
Sol,
Perhaps there’s some undiscovered “death blow” to AGW theory out there. But I’m not about to waste my time with dumb sites like Daily Tech. And what’s up “wattsuswiththat”?
Why not just link to your assertions on this blog, and call it good? It would just as credible.
If it’s that important to you, you should try harder.
Rage,
I in no way think that Hillary would leak information that would harm America. I have even conceded that it might not have been her team that leaked the news.
What I fear, though, is her and Bill’s desire for power. Might she leak potentially Obama damaging news in order to achieve their goals? Would she be able to promote her agenda through the power of the SoS seat?
True, this is a bunch of “what ifs”, but I think it deserves some consideration.
True, this is a bunch of “what ifs”, but I think it deserves some consideration.
I entirely agree.
Iraq pact timeline calls for troops to leave by 2011, Pentagon says
“We believe this is an agreement that respects Iraqi sovereignty, which was paramount here, but at the same time provides us with the authorities to do the work we still need to do in Iraq,” Morrell said.
“If we had concerns, trust me, Secretary Gates and General Cartwright would not be up explaining this and supporting this to members of Congress,” he said.
Morrell’s comments were some of the strongest to be used regarding the need for U.S. troops in Iraq after months of administration officials rejecting timetables for troop withdrawals from Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/19/iraq.sofa/index.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120/sc_afp/sciencephysicseinstein_081120235605??
For all the “wannbe” physicists out there in blog land (including me).
But… What about the Biden statement? — Sol
——–
Here’s a thread where at least the we bloggers chewed on Biden’s statement at length. Towards the end of the thread I posted a lot of words describing my “take” on Biden’s statement / gaffe. You don’t want to bring it back here, but here is where it can found. I still feel exactly the same way.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/10/would-terrorists-test-obama/
Nancy Pelosi: “It is all about accountability and about viability. Until we can see a plan where the auto industry is held accountable and a plan for viability on how they go into the future, until we see the plan, until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money. And that is really where we are with this.”
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/21/headlines
I can’t believe I agree with this woman.
(CNN) — President-elect Obama is on track to nominate Sen. Hillary Clinton as his secretary of state after Thanksgiving, three aides on Obama’s transition team told CNN Thursday.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates is being talked about as staying on in an Obama administration.
1 of 3 Clinton senior adviser Philippe Reines repeated a statement that “any and all speculation about Cabinet or other administration appointments is for President-Elect Obama’s transition team to address.”
CNN also has learned that Obama is getting foreign policy advice from an unlikely source: Republican Brent Scowcroft, who was national security adviser in the first Bush administration.
Cool link, Vaughn. E=MC² has been taken for granted for so long, I didn’t realize that type of test had never been done (though I can kinda see why!).
Good thing they got a positive result. Imagine all those MP3 players and laser pointers that would have stopped working! :)
1 of 3 Clinton senior adviser Philippe Reines
She has a Borg on her staff? ;-)
Further, he would make decisions that may not be popular but please continue to support him as he is the right man for this time.
Doesn’t really address anything. Just a restatement of Biden’s words.
” I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate. And he’s gonna need help. And the kind of help he’s gonna need is, he’s gonna need you, not financially to help him, we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”
Why is Biden already out in front of an Obama course of action? If this doesn’t disturb you, I don’t know what would.
“Many of the Christians who accept Evolutionary theory do so for personal motivations and hardly because of any real study of the subject.”
Idiot. It’s no wonder you’ll never get a girlfriend.
Some of us realize that Genesis is not supposed to be read as a biology textbook.
“And those who believe in the quasi Evolution~Creation mix think that is more plausable yet they are still at odds with science.”
As in, the millions and millions of Catholics and Orthodox, not to mention a few Protestant denominations.
YECs are absurd even to some of the more die-har evangelicals.
If your faith is dependent on hundreds of years of scientific evidence being wrong, then I really feel sorry that you don’t have greater faith in God.
Hint: He doesn’t need you to defend Him against “the evolutionists”
I come from the school of believing that God created the heavens and the earth, all that lay with in it.
However, since we cannot know the mind of God, there is no way to determine when and how the earth was created through the measurements of man.
The creation of the Universe and Earth/Man transcends our understanding of how stuff works.
(puts another quarter into the crystal pyramid machine)
However, since we cannot know the mind of God, there is no way to determine when and how the earth was created through the measurements of man.
This is a reasonable assumption. However, I’d disagree in that I think we were given the abilities and tools to find out HOW (or at least a pretty good guess). The WHY is another field entirely.
Before there was a sun in the sky going around the earth how could one measure ‘the evening and the morning’?
I’m going to recommend a book here, “Finding Darwin’s God”.
It tears apart the riculous notions of “God the Charlatan” and other nonsense spouted by those who have not studied evo bio beyond a required intro biology course
If you believe in God because there is no way to explain A, B and C, and then all of a sudden we find a way to explain A and B, your faith has just been shattered by 66%. Unless you have the cognitive dissonance to deny, deny, deny the explanations for A and B
God of the Gaps. It’s exhausting, isn’t it?
And I’ll recommend this for the deeper cosmological view:
http://aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Age_of_the_Universe.asp
A Jewish scholar’s interpretation based on the Torah and cosmology.
#
Wahine_Tara
Posted November 21, 2008 at 12:52 pm | Permalink
However, since we cannot know the mind of God, there is no way to determine when and how the earth was created through the measurements of man.
This is a reasonable assumption. However, I’d disagree in that I think we were given the abilities and tools to find out HOW (or at least a pretty good guess). The WHY is another field entirely.
——————–
Human’s have science, which in my opinion is a weak link to the over knowledge base of understanding.
I feel that science is incomplete because it will be impossible to know all of the parameters that affect a complex process.
The chemistry of love can be described by taking samples, measuring hormones and generally hooking up devices to measure responses to stimuli.
However, there are no steady state measuring devices, no devices that can measure the state of matter before something happens, no freeze in time to take a photo of what will happen before it happens.
One cannot measure the objectively measure some aspects of love, but they still exist.
Just as one cannot measure what occurs before a ’spark of energy’ is produced with out some change in the state or condition.
Measuring potentiality has always been problematic for scientists.
Quite simply put, we cannot know something unless we know before hand it will happen.
It doesn’t fit the bill of cyclic event horizons, one cannot make an existence from nothingness or if it appears they can, there must exist a pre-condition state of nothingness to exist.
“bth” asks –
“Before there was a sun in the sky going around the earth how could one measure ‘the evening and the morning’?”
Happy Hour.
Regular, might I point out to you that Tara is not blogging in Kansaas… Neither is Sol… Just thought I would mention that after your rant the other night at Cosmos… LOL
SOL —-
Biden did not make a gaffe regarding “Obama will have a plan,” etc. Biden doesnt even SUGGEST that he knows what that plan will be… WHERE do you get such stuff?? Last time I heard that rant, it was Hannity running off at the microphone with it…
Look…. EVERY new President is faced with one type of crisis or another… Sometimes, their decision(read plan) is not immediately agreed upon by many (including detractors and flamers) —
Biden is simply saying that in the event Obama offers a solution might not SEEM to be the right one by some… Hang in there… get behind the man in the middle of the crisis… Give it a chance to work…
I fail to see some “crystal ball” conspiracy in such a statement… I mean, it happens to every one of us at one time or another…
“I feel that science is incomplete because it will be impossible to know all of the parameters that affect a complex process.”
While I agree with you (considering there is a level of uncertainty at the quantam level which translates of uncertainty at higher levels), I am uncomfortable with being complacent with the explanation “We don’t know all of the parameters that affect a complex process” and stop there, declaring that axiom as my reason for belief in God.
My reason for belief is not that belief in God is necessary to explain things that cannot be explained by science. Science does a pretty good job on its own.
It’s something more, that cannot be hammered out in Science or Nature or other esteemed publications.
“I recently met in Jerusalem with Professor Leon Lederman, Nobel Prize winning physicist. We were talking science, and as the conversation went on, I said, “What about spirituality, Leon?” And he said to me, “Schroeder, I’ll talk science with you, but as far as spirituality, speak to the people across the street, the theologians.”"
Famed cosmologist Steven Hawkins said much the same thing.
What is a “day?”
Let’s jump back to the Six Days of Genesis. First of all, we now know that when the Biblical calendar says 5700-plus years, we must add to that “plus six days.”
A few years ago, I acquired a dinosaur fossil that was dated (by two radioactive decay chains) as 150 million years old. My 7-year-old daughter says, “Abba! Dinosaurs? How can there be dinosaurs 150 million years ago, when my Bible teacher says the world isn’t even 6000 years old?” So I told her to look in Psalms 90:4. There, you’ll find something quite amazing. King David says, “One thousand years in Your (God’s) sight are like a day that passes, a watch in the night.” Perhaps time is different from the perspective of King David, than it is from the perspective of the Creator. Perhaps time is different.
Hello Tara,
Are you actualy going to finish a discussion with me this time or just get in a few name calling jabs and be done with it as usual?
Just want to know before I start asking you questions about the things you say and if I should actually expect a response or not.
Chas,
His exact words. http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/11/open-thread-1121/#comment-473237
we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”
For starters:
Tara, you said that you are a Christian. You also said that to a “good scientist” God is never the answer.
So how do you reconcile the two statements?
Do you not consider yourself to be a “good scientist?”
Tara,
“Some of us realize that Genesis is not supposed to be read as a biology textbook.”
Good for you, welcome to the club. I have never said Genesis should be reas as a biology text book.
I suppose this is yet another glaring example of your inability to hold a logical discussion with me.
The last time we had this discussion I spent the entire time arguing against your strawman arguments. Just like this one.
Do you care to actually have a discussion or just continue making up things to argue against which I have not said?
“One thousand years in Your (God’s) sight are like a day that passes, a watch in the night.” Perhaps time is different from the perspective of King David, than it is from the perspective of the Creator. Perhaps time is different.
———————-
Ben, that is my belief. When it comes to time lines, God’s is quite different than ours. So this is why I don’t take creation (human days) literally.
Tara, you said that you are a Christian. You also said that to a “good scientist” God is never the answer.
Science NOT= Religion.
Duh.
Tara,
“If your faith is dependent on hundreds of years of scientific evidence being wrong, then I really feel sorry that you don’t have greater faith in God.”
Whose faith is dependent on that? Who are you arguing with here?
Looks like someone is wrong on the Internet, again.
Bye folks!
Ben,
Perhaps time is different. Then do you simply say the entire story of the fall of man was just that? A story?
Was there an Adam and Eve?
SOL —
” I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate. And he’s gonna need help. And the kind of help he’s gonna need is, he’s gonna need you, not financially to help him, we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”
WHAT is so friggin alarming about those words to you??? Biden doesnt identify a crisis… He says it COULD(Might) originate from any number of sources….
And he says that he has the confidence in Obama to know that he will come to make a decision that might not seem to be the right one… But ride it out… give him the support he needs… And see if it works…
INSTEAD OF FLAMING ON about something that hasnt even happened yet….
“SolDevVB” on Nancy Pelosi –
“I can’t believe I agree with this woman.”
Yeah. It’s pretty shocking when your political biases slam head-on to the facts, isn’t it?
“Was there an Adam and Eve?”
My opinion? NO – not as described in Genesis.
Yeah. It’s pretty shocking when your political biases slam head-on to the facts, isn’t it?
She did something right, for a change. Kudos where they are due. Nothing more.
Ben,
So at what point do you actually start believing what the Bible says?
Just curious.
Was there a Noah? Was all that stuff about the Descendants of Adam just made up? Tower of Babel? Abram and Lot? Did the nation of Israel depart Egypt?
Where do you start believing what the Bible says as truth and not just metaphor, allegory, or pure fictional story?
Vaughn, I liked the link from yahoo regarding physics. Thanks for sharing it.
Tara, you said that you are a Christian. You also said that to a “good scientist” God is never the answer.
So how do you reconcile the two statements?
Do you not consider yourself to be a “good scientist?”
God is never the answer in science, which is the explanation of how things work in the material world.
God is the answer to a lot of things, but definitely not the answer to how biological processes work and evolve. Perhaps he is the answer to why it works the way it does, but I don’t concern myself with that because I’m a scientist.
And yes, a good one.
Sol – and I also agree with her. Before using my money to bailout the Detroit Three I want to see their plans. I noticed yesterday that when I posted my specifications for vehicles and asked which offerings of the D-3 I would buy there were not many answers.
It will be interesting to see what I find in my next foray into the vehicle market – will the D-3 sell me what I require?
chas,
You are a complete idiot and moron. There is no if –>Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”
Whis part of that do you not understand?
INSTEAD OF FLAMING ON about something that hasnt even happened yet….
These were Biden’s words dipsiht, not mine.
Thanks Tara… I have been saying that about the WHY and the HOW for many months here… And labeled a heretic for it, too!!
Aloha!!
Tara – which field?
I will also tackle that question with my recollection of Hawkins (and also the ones posted above):
Science tries to answer HOW. Religion/philosophy tries to answer WHY. So, God is not the answer to HOW; however He is likely the answer to WHY.
Perhaps time is different. Then do you simply say the entire story of the fall of man was just that? A story?
Was there an Adam and Eve?
I believe* that when the Bible says we were created in the image of God, it’s not referring to a physical image. We have a unique ability to think rationally (well, most of us) and to transcend our thinking (think about our thinking).
I believe He gave us that somewhere over the course of evolution, and so we were “created in His image”.
*This is not science
“I recently met in Jerusalem with Professor Leon Lederman, Nobel Prize winning physicist. We were talking science, and as the conversation went on, I said, “What about spirituality, Leon?” And he said to me, “Schroeder, I’ll talk science with you, but as far as spirituality, speak to the people across the street, the theologians.”"
From my link above.
Tara – ‘man in God’s image’. Since I am fat and bald does that mean God is fat and bald? Maybe we are evolving TOWARD God’s image?
Tara,
If there is a God, at some point his interaction with the Universe is more than just a “WHY” rather there is a “HOW” as well.
Did God cause the big bang? Did God create matter which resulted in the big bang?
At some point, if you believe in God, don’t you believe He had to have hand in the cookie jar somewhere?
will the D-3 sell me what I require?
Not anytime soon. I think the volt is due out in 2009. With another plug in in 2010. I might be a year off, but pretty sure.
This is one of the only reasons I don’t want GM to file ch 7. China would be the most likely buyer at liquidation. The Volt technology would be owned by China and we would have to lease it from them.
My suggestion would be for the congress to loan them money from one of the banks they now own under condition of ch 11 bankruptcy and a thorough house cleaning of upper management. They could rid them selves of the union burdon for a spell, then bring them back, but under greater control.
Ben, just an FYI:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wikipedia+%22stephen+hawkins&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
Tara,
When did man sin against God then?
So now we want Congress getting involved in the business plans of major corporations?
Socialism, here we come.
Ben,
my undergraduate research was primarily systematics and evolution of algae. Now I’ve been involved in research from population genetics of a dinoflagellate (my thesis) to comparative development of annelids (in which I also incorporate a lot of molecular systematics). The latter is just for fun :D Eventually I would like to make a jump over to coral reef ecology, but that field is largely saturated by the “save the whales” kids.
I guess if I had to give myself a broad title it would be marine phycologist, specializing in evolution, ecology and conservation biology.
Would you rather chase good money after bad giving them a blank check?
How has that 350 billion been spent? Zero transparency. You cool with that too?
Outlander —
Was it Socialism under Reagan, when the Feds LOANED Chrysler money to get them out of a hole??? Or was that something else??
Was it Socialism when the Feds bailed out the passenger rail system with AMTRAK and CONRAIL???
Or was it Socialism when our CURENT government started buying banks???
Hillary Clinton has accepted Secretary of State.
This was not my wish for her. But I think she can heal America’s image on the world stage.
Adam’s belly button… you know the “fig leaf’ often covering nether regions of Adam and Eve in classical paintings? This covering often obscured the belly-button region.
Having not been born of woman, an umbilical cord attachment point would seem rater unlikely.
If Adam was literally created in God’s image and had a belly button, it would imply the deity-creator had one too… certainly a problematic idea.
I think I will stick with the evolution explanation….
Tara,
So, let me get this correct then.
You believe that at some point during Evolution God gave us the ability to think?
“We have a unique ability to think rationally (well, most of us) and to transcend our thinking (think about our thinking).”
….
“I believe He gave us that somewhere over the course of evolution….”
So, as a “good scientist” you don’t believe that we simply evolved into having our cognitive abilities?
Interesting. Have you ever thought about writing a paper on this and submitting it to a well respected scientific journal?
Socialism, here we
comeare.How many have we bailed out so far? How many does the government already own?
If we hand B3 a blank check, how soon until their hand is out again?
HAve you ever applied for a loan? Didn’t they crawl up your butt with a microscope? Why not do the same for B3?
“Tara,
If there is a God, at some point his interaction with the Universe is more than just a “WHY” rather there is a “HOW” as well.
Did God cause the big bang? Did God create matter which resulted in the big bang?
At some point, if you believe in God, don’t you believe He had to have hand in the cookie jar somewhere?”
Yes. I am not a cosmologist and I hate physics, so I know very little about the big bang. But I don’t think it is incompatible with a Creator at all. God spoke, and BANG it happened. I’m fine with that. The first cause argument is fine with me*
*This is not science
Tara,
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t believe that the theory of Evolution ever mentions anything about God being the reason why man develpoed a cognitive thinking ability.
Are there any scientific journals with papers on the subject I could read?
Are there other “good scientists” who believe this interaction between God and Evolution took place and that this is why we have our ability to think like we do? Well, “good scientists” who have been published saying this?
Outlander, when the Detroit Three come begging the Congress for money, why should not the Congress behave as any other lender? Business plans are routinely requested by private commercial lenders, subject to critique and revision by the applicant in response to the lender’s critique in order for the loan request to be approved. Why not the same behavior by Congress, when the Detroit Three see “the Government” as the lender of last resort?
BTW, it is my opinion that asking to see the plan before making the loan is not telling the prospective borrower how to run its business. It is merely asking how the proceeds of the loan will be used if it is made.
In case you are wondering: I’m not for “bailouts”, but if the Government is to be involved in corporate finance, then the Government should act as others so involved.
Sol – an idea – would like your comments:
ConRail, Amtrak. They have their flaws big time but did manage to keep America’s rail system afloat. Using that example set up a government-sponsored “Detroit Motors” to purchase selected assets from the D-3. That would include technology assets. Then move forward from there.
Tara,
Most interesting. Do you not think that “good scientists” in the field of study of the Big Bang think that you are just some silly Big Bang denier by saying that God did it?
Because last I checked, the sceintific theory of the Big Bang didn’t involve God doing it.
Tara,
The “first cause” argument might be just fine with you, but is it just fine with science?
Would a “good scientist” ever say God was the answer like that?
VT,
With the past recent bailouts, doesn’t the government hold major stakes in several banks? Couldn’t the gov’t use that power to negotiate a loan through that bank (or several smaller loans through several banks)?
Would that be smoother than using tax payers’ (borrowed from china) $$$ ?
Big Bang …
“Nachmanides says that before the universe, there was nothing… but then suddenly the entire creation appeared as a minuscule speck. He gives a dimension for the speck: something very tiny like the size of a grain of mustard. And he says that is the only physical creation. There was no other physical creation; all other creations were spiritual. The Nefesh (the soul of animal life) and the Neshama (the soul of human life) are spiritual creations. There’s only one physical creation, and that creation was a tiny speck. The speck is all there was. Anything else was God. In that speck was all the raw material that would be used for making everything else. Nachmanides describes the substance as “dak me’od, ein bo mamash” — very thin, no substance to it. And as this speck expanded out, this substance — so thin that it has no essence — turned into matter as we know it.
Nachmanides further writes: “Misheyesh, yitfos bo zman” — from the moment that matter formed from this substance-less substance, time grabs hold. Not “begins.” Time is created at the beginning. But time “grabs hold.” When matter condenses, congeals, coalesces, out of this substance so thin it has no essence — that’s when the Biblical clock of the six days starts.
Science has shown that there’s only one “substance-less substance” that can change into matter. And that’s energy. Einstein’s famous equation, E=MC2, tells us that energy can change into matter. And once it changes into matter, time grabs hold.
Nachmanides has made a phenomenal statement. I don’t know if he knew the Laws of Relativity. But we know them now. We know that energy — light beams, radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays — all travel at the speed of light, 300 million meters per second. At the speed of light, time does not pass. The universe was aging, but time only grabs hold when matter is present. This moment of time before the clock begins for the Bible, lasted about 1/100,000 of a second. A miniscule time. But in that time, the universe expanded from a tiny speck, to about the size of the Solar System. From that moment on we have matter, and time flows forward. The Biblical clock begins here.
Now the fact that the Bible tells us there is “evening and morning Day One” (and not “a first day”) comes to teach us time from a Biblical perspective. Einstein proved that time varies from place to place in the universe, and that time varies from perspective to perspective in the universe. The Bible says there is “evening and morning Day One”.
Thanks for not changing your nic much after you got banned, Boxlock.
That makes it a lot easier for us thinking folks to just scroll over your links.
Religion and science are completely different fields of thought and intellectual investigation.
It is always foolish and ultimately pointless to use one frame of reference to explore the other. It’s been tried.
Give it up.
Pray to your gods, if you want to. But consult a physicist if you want to learn what is known about the universe.
Then move forward from there.
Sure it could work. I just don’t want that technology going to china. They will steal it soon anyway, but at least we won’t have to lease it from them.
I just wish they would file ch. 11, clean house and bring in some new blood. Maybe study Toyota and Honda business models.
Tara – at some point I would love to discuss bleaching and other issues with you. I have a real bad feeling about coral’s future. And add lowering pH to the mix …
I believe He gave us that somewhere over the course of evolution….”
So, as a “good scientist” you don’t believe that we simply evolved into having our cognitive abilities?
I think it’s probable that such a trait evolved. I would not suprised to see many paper in the next few years detailing how such neural pathways evolved (and showing convincing evidence for it).
But it represents a shift from merely animal to “man in God’s image. Of course, I believe that God carried out his plan via evolution, and either knew it was going to happen like this or guided it this way.*
“Interesting. Have you ever thought about writing a paper on this and submitting it to a well respected scientific journal?”
You see, this is where I call you an idiot who will never get a girlfriend. It’s not science, my belief. It’s a “why”. It’s a question mark not falsifiable or observable. Therefore I would never write a paper on it and submit it to a journal. Except maybe a philosophy journal.
*This is not science.
Nathan —
Let me attempt this >>>>
You got a guy over in this building who collects, harvests, and processes horsehides…. He puts those horse hides through all of the proper procedures, until he produces a — BASEBALL!!!
And then this other guy in this other building has his staff gathered around a group of video screens…. They are dealing with stealing bases, and base running, and pitch selection, and hitting theories….
The only thing in common between them is that they are all dealing with Baseball!!
The guy producing the balls is dealing with the HOW…. The other guys, watching the videos, are dealing with the WHY….
Science = HOW
Theology = WHY
Qustion: WHY IS THIS SO BLOOMIN DIFFICULT TO GET THROUGH YOUR HEAD???
Did you see where your Dad earlier posted a source that talks about MILLIONS of years of climate change for the Earth??
Does he only use science when it suits him, or what??
Sol – maybe license the technology to Honda, Toyota, etc?
bth
Posted November 21, 2008 at 2:24 pm | Permalink
Tara – at some point I would love to discuss bleaching and other issues with you. I have a real bad feeling about coral’s future.
===================
Ben,
I find if you keep your cleaning supplies away from the salt water fish tank the corals will do well.
Ben,
I took a very interesting seminar on marine ecology. It was depressing. It’s hard to care about all conservation efforts (I don’t particularly care about mammals, for instance), but the reefs are something dear to my heart.
The professor showed current bleaching trends and it looks like the Caribbean reefs are going to be pau by the time my grandkids come around due to rising ocean temps. The algal symbionts that live in coral survive in a very narrow temperature range, and their death is what causes bleaching. I’ll have to see if I still have the powerpoint. Very sobering.
the sceintific theory of the Big Bang didn’t involve God doing it.
Which is why you don’t understand science, Nathan.
Only a non-scientist could ask that question.
Scientists don’t reject God. Their method requires them to construct explanations as consistent as possible with what can be observed and inferred from those observations.
The concept of a creator God is not disproven by science. But since the evidence for a creator God is not obvious, that idea cannot be a scientific conclusion.
Did you see where your Dad earlier posted a source that talks about MILLIONS of years of climate change for the Earth??
Haha, this is a very good point.
Was the story of the Burning Bush literally true?
Then perhaps we should be teaching the ‘theory’ of non-consumptive combustion in the schools.
Sol,
Good questions. I do not have an appropriate answer to them. I would point out my understanding that the equity position taken by the government in the banks is preferred stock, which generally would not give the government stockholder the power to force such action without the power already being provided within the preferences given at the time such stock was issued.
I wonder whether the ultimate answer to your questions does not lie within the body of regulations governing banks. While the government writes the regulations, and surely may amend the same, I’ve a feeling the “law of unintended consequences” might assert itself if the regulations were amended, with potentially disastrous effects to the banks in other loan transactions that a bevy of lawyers would create as being within the regulations as amended, although without the original intent of any amendments needed to do this “deal”.
The concept of a creator God is not disproven by science. But since the evidence for a creator God is not obvious, that idea cannot be a scientific conclusion.
——————
That is about the simplest true explanation of this matter.
Nice work Capn’A, I agree.
WTF!
Bubba got a picture of Barry hosing a goat????
CHANGE. Your pants. Put on the ones you had on 8 years ago?
I’ve seen a lot of bleaching first hand in the Bahamas, Tara.
But all is not lost.
Because I’ve seen coral reefs in Malaysia too. And they were surviving in much hotter water.
It’s possible that coral can adapt to warmer temps as time goes on.
I hope and pray that’s what happens.
Otherwise, we’re looking a lot of death in the ocean which revolves around coral reefs.
VT,
Didnt see that coming. Good call.
Ben,
I don’t think they want it. I think they will have somethinhg even better.
I am still holding out hope for Tesla. Maybe the B3 will be the B2 with Tesla in there.
ANTI–
That’s mighty Christian of you . . .
CapnAmerica
Posted November 21, 2008 at 2:35 pm | Permalink
ANTI–
That’s mighty Christian of you . . .
———————
I hope I didn’t traumatize you too much. ;)
I wonder if GM would see Ford’s who would see Chrysler’s business plan. Competition, who cares when you are not competitive. How would Congress know a good plan from a bad plan? And they want to take an equity share?
I didn’t say that here shouldn’t be scrutiny, but like I said, socialism here we come.
Oh, Jeez . . . Heckler got into the horse tranquilizers . . . again . . .
“Most interesting. Do you not think that “good scientists” in the field of study of the Big Bang think that you are just some silly Big Bang denier by saying that God did it?
Because last I checked, the sceintific theory of the Big Bang didn’t involve God doing it.”
I am not a Big Bang denier. The Big Bang theory says nothing about the why, just the how. God is not a part of the scientific explanation. My inference is not grounded in science, it is grounded in philosophy and theology. IT IS NOT SCIENCE.
“The “first cause” argument might be just fine with you, but is it just fine with science?
Would a “good scientist” ever say God was the answer like that?”
Nonbelief in God is not a prequisite to be a good scientist. Again, I don’t know any cosmologists, but I doubt anyone would have a problem with me inferring my own beliefs about the “Why”. IT IS NOT SCIENCE.
A good step toward energy independence AND a project for Big 3 to pay for the bailout:
Have all 3 mass produce a single model alternative energy vehicle to be sold at low cost to Americans and the world.
Think of the “Volkswagen” idea.
I don’t know for sure, but aren’t a lot of foreign car companies given gov’t subsidies?
As far as American car companies go, I might buy a American, but I can’t bring myself to go to a car lot that features ads with a SCREAMING CAR GUY! and a frentically jumping giant chicken.
Every time I hear Tom Parks say that I “probably paid too much,” I say, “I got your paid too much right here . . .” and I do this friendly little wave.
It’s a one-fingered wave.
Interesting concept Bluejay. I might also create a separate military company to build miliatry equipment.
B.J.
“Have all 3 mass produce a single model alternative energy vehicle to be sold at low cost to Americans and the world.”
And if no one buys it??
You going to force people to drive it?
Or will there still be choice after the CHANGE?
Nathan, before we go any further:
Please define “science” for me. I have a feeling we are arguing past each other.
“Nathaniel” asks –
“You believe that at some point during Evolution God gave us the ability to think?”
In your case, boy, not so much.
That’s a point on your side of the ledger.
I will not assume your conception of “God,” but forgive me if I’ve not been convinced by Jack Chick’s work. I kinda thing “God” is something more than a faceless giant sitting in a thrown with “Nathanial” sittteh on the Left Hand and Jesus sitteth on the right hand.
In that case — the whole “image of ‘God’ thing — there must be a left buttock of “God.” Who “sitteth” there? (Okay, Peter Popoff, but it was a rhetorical question, okay?)
The Bible is a thousands-year-old attempt to try to explain the human condition.
“How did we get into this mess we’re in and how can we get out of it?”
Every scripture of every religion attempts to explain the inexplicable.
And science does the same thing. But science has a rule: It’s got to have evidence. The evidence has to have some basis other than some story-teller’s imagination.
(I mean, really, “Nathaniel.” –
If I were to claim Obama won the election because he’s a Leo — or whatever — and McCain was a Capricorn — or whatever — would you seriously entered into the conversation?! Wouldn’t you somehow realize astrology is bulls#it? Wouldn’t you, perhaps, challenge me to prove Obama’s victory was due to his Moon house or the power of the cusp? Wouldn’t you?!)
If I were to come into this forum and claim July 4, 1776 was incompatible with January 20, 2009 because of the phase of the Moon, wouldn’t you be inclined to dismiss me as a kook? Or, at least, ask for some more evidence?
You, “Nathaniel,” seem to believe in a “God” who is just like your daddy but bigger and more powerful. Fine.
But in doing so you glorify your father and diminish “God.”
As long as you think “God” is a “he” or a “He” or reduce god-ness to human perspectives, you probably don’t know what you’re dealing with.
I suspect a lot of people who share your theological beliefs prayed long and hard for John McCain’s victory on November 4th. How’d that work out?
Either you’re praying to something you have no possible understanding of, or “the Devil” out-smarted your “god” and gained victory, or maybe you should have recognized your all-powerful “god” was smart enough to not take your advice.
Ben, I think the Chrysler Pacifica gets 23 mpg. and can have or has a 3rd row seat. Might look into that.
outlander
“I didn’t say that here shouldn’t be scrutiny, but like I said, socialism here we come.”
I believe the correct term would be Fascism.
“And if no one buys it??”
Make it cheap, clean, safe, and reliable and people will buy it.
There is a HUGE market for just such a vehicle in India, China, and parts of Africa.
Let THEM buy the next step in transportation from us and skip our 100 years of experience.
Pacifica is one I will look at.
The US auto industry has tried to be all things to all people.
I don’t need power windows for example.
Make our “Americar” a mass production platform with slots for aftermarket upgrade.
Ben — I have long been a fan of small, economic cars, with 5-speed transmission, etc.
However, given the right amount of funding, I would certainly have the Pacifica on my list to “look” at…. The hybrid Chevy Tahoe is also one to “look” at….
outlander,
I’m not aware of anything in Congress right now that presages a demand for the government to receive equity from the Detroit Three in return for the requested loan. I can envision certain restrictions placed upon the recipients of such a loan, such as no dividend payments on common stock until the loan is repaid.
IMHO, the “socialism” horse went out of the barn with the AIG deal, made without any Congressional intervention or approval. And, again IMHO, the equity position received by the government in return for the emergency funding provided was appropriate under the circumstances.
BTW, Ben — I currently drive a 1999 Chevy Metro, 5-Speed, 3-Cyl. I avg. about 40 mpg in town, and 48-50 on the highway… Out on the interstates, I can run 70 – 75 all day… It is also pretty zippy around town… However, a THREE passenger limit… 4 including the driver….
A strong wind can make both the sparrow and leaf fly away. Does the sparrow have its choice?
Or is the leaf guided by a higher order?
Looks like bush is making a bunch of midnight resolutions:
The Chicago Tribune did a special report saying the administration undercut a clean-air rule aimed at curbing childhood lead poisoning:
…the EPA had planned to require lead monitors next to any factory emitting at least a half-ton of lead a year. But after the White House intervened, the agency raised the threshold to a ton of lead or more, according to e-mails and other documents exchanged between the EPA and the Office of Management and Budget.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20081121/pl_ynews/ynews_pl158
Regular
Posted November 21, 2008 at 3:00 pm | Permalink
A strong wind can make both the sparrow and leaf fly away. Does the sparrow have its choice?
Or is the leaf guided by a higher order?
======================
African or European sparrow?
Heckler, you and Outlander are nothing more or less than fear mongering devils… There is no more Socialism NOW than when Reagan’s bunch approved the Chrysler loans, or when the Feds put AMTRAK and CONRAIL in business, or when the CURRENT Feds bailed out AIG…
By YOUR definitions, it isnt Socialism here we come… It’s Socialism here we stay!! However, you are both terribly wrong, or at the very least, misled….
And, BTW, Heckler, it definitely is NOT Facism…. Facism is where Business/Industry runs the Government…. LOL Get a dictionary… they’re FREE online….
I agree with BlueJ.
The old VW Beetle was the best car ever built in terms of value for the money.
And why?
Because it didn’t keep going through needless “upgrades” and styling changes.
Granted, they did eventually change the 6 volt system to 12 volt and increased the engine size to a whopping 57 HP!, but for the most part, it was a simple design that allowed for a tremendous efficiency of scale.
This was the result of a government edict and not the “free market.” The “free market” gave us tail fins and rocket ship grilles.
“outlander” give us –
“I wonder if GM would see Ford’s who would see Chrysler’s business plan. Competition, who cares when you are not competitive. How would Congress know a good plan from a bad plan? And they want to take an equity share?”
Oh my god!
What if General Motors had determined a better battery was the key? And Chrysler’s research were centered on maximizing energy from less-than-efficient batteries? Or Ford came up with aerodynamic cabins which were comfortable for passengers and protected them from collisions?
Oh my god?!
The very fact that their individual approached to producing a product might make them all better?!
Well, that’s “socialism.”
Until they come to Congress and expect all of us — Ford people or Chevy people or Toyota people — to come together and move us closer to a transportation technology that works to the advantage of all of us.
Oh, yeah. That’s “socialism!!”
No.
That’s common sense.
Looks like the markets rallied on news on Geithner being selected by Obama for Treasury.
Oh yea, there is another form of Facism… Social Facism… where one group (or party) does all in its power, to set groups of people at odds with each other, in an attempt to gain control…. This is what we have had for EIGHT years…. and, hallelujah! it is soon coming to an end…
But its proponents will flood the air waves with their vile stench for years to come!!
A very dangerous form of propaganda!!
“The “free market” gave us tail fins and rocket ship grilles.”
That stuff has its market and there’s nothing wrong with it, except how we do it.
Build the frame and body to accept multiple configurations for fenders, ground effects, etc. But just build and ship the basic platform. Make the rest of it after market.
And speaking of the free market, I used to drive a mini-pickup. I feel I need a pick-up for my many DIY projects.
So after ten years roll by, I need a new mini-pickup.
Guess what, they don’t sell them here any more.
The smallest truck you can buy is a “mid-sized.”
The Toyota place on Kellogg even lied to me and said they didn’t have 4 cylinder Tacomas available, and on the way out, I saw one parked on their lot.
That’s the “free market” for you. It’s not giving people what they want. It’s giving people what makes the companies the most money.
#
ANTI
Posted November 21, 2008 at 3:05 pm | Permalink
Regular
Posted November 21, 2008 at 3:00 pm | Permalink
A strong wind can make both the sparrow and leaf fly away. Does the sparrow have its choice?
Or is the leaf guided by a higher order?
======================
African or European sparrow?
——————————
Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean..
Chas
“Facism is where Business/Industry runs the Government…. LOL Get a dictionary… they’re FREE online….”
Chas, you are a freaking idiot. What dictionary are you using?
Fascism is when the means of production are privately held but controlled by government. We have been creeping in that general direction for he last 40+ years. We’re just taking a greater leap in that direction in the last 2 to 3 months.
Thanks for sharing that Capn.
NOW I know why people are always asking me if my little Toyota truck is for sale. I get asked all the time.
LOL CapN…. Remember those old DeSoto’s??
And who could forget the ‘59 Oldsmobiles and Buicks (like the one in Fast Times at Ridgemont High — my cousin actually had one of those)…
And then, there was the cute lovable BUG… putzing away with good mileage, terriffic mobility…. easy parking…. and not a bad ride….
The BUG (now Beetle) is still with us…. And those old GM MONSTERS are all in the trash heaps of autodom…. either scrapped, or turned into bales of crushed metal….
“Chas” reports –
“I currently drive a 1999 Chevy Metro…”
Damn!
You must be hung like Milton Berle!
“The Corvette is General Motors’ version of the penis.”
– Hunter S. Thompson
“I wonder if GM would see Ford’s who would see Chrysler’s business plan. Competition, who cares when you are not competitive. How would Congress know a good plan from a bad plan? And they want to take an equity share?”
Oh my god!
What if General Motors had determined a better battery was the key? And Chrysler’s research were centered on maximizing energy from less-than-efficient batteries? Or Ford came up with aerodynamic cabins which were comfortable for passengers and protected them from collisions?
Oh my god?!
The very fact that their individual approached to producing a product might make them all better?!
Well, that’s “socialism.”
Until they come to Congress and expect all of us — Ford people or Chevy people or Toyota people — to come together and move us closer to a transportation technology that works to the advantage of all of us.
Oh, yeah. That’s “socialism!!”
No.
That’s common sense.
Guess what, they don’t sell them here any more.
=============
I know many farmers, cattlemen, and construction guys that are pissed you can’t buy a bare-bones truck anymore.
I mean no power locks and power windows. You can’t get a vinyl seat and floor and manual transmissions are even difficult to find.
I can’t remember when you could just buy a work truck, you know the kind you can get filthy, open up the doors and take a garden hose to the interior and your off to get it dirty again!
Capn
“That’s the “free market” for you. It’s not giving people what they want. It’s giving people what makes the companies the most money.”
So all those people buying F150’s and F250’s when they could have been buying a Ranger are doing so because _ _ _ _ _ _ _ was holding a gun to their head?
Anti
“I know many farmers, cattlemen, and construction guys that are pissed you can’t buy a bare-bones truck anymore.”
You can. You just have to order it. It’s usually called a “work truck” package. At least that’s what GM calls it. Vinyl seats, vinyl floor mats etc. It’s even available on the Canyon/Colorado compact pickup line.
Monkey —
I said METRO… not Corvette….
But I do like to LOOK at Vettes!! LOL
Correct, Chas.
And the novel rear mounted engine meant great traction for a small car.
Of course without a radiator, you can’t have air conditioning.
Kind of a big drawback in Kansas.
“You just have to order it.”
I’m gonna guess that that ends up being more expensive. Which is exactly backward.
In the information age, there is no reason for car lots anymore. Turn dealerships into where you pick up what you order a few weeks in advance.
Well, Monkeyhawk’s making straw monkeys again. But first let’s first clear up For Monkey, the fact that a business plan does not include details of technological discoveries. Look up “business plan” if you are still confused.
And then secondly, let’s also make it clear that technology advancements almost always include intellectual property that has value in a capitalistic society. And contrary to Monkey’s assertion, forced sharing of intellectual property without compensation would be anti-capitalistic and un-American, in addition to socialistic.
I would have liked to have bought a Ranger, Heck.
But at the time I bought, the space behind the driver and passenger had no functional seating.
Kind of a DUH! engineering design, wasn’t it.
Space for seats, but you just can’t sit there.
Too many drug store cowboys have ruined the ‘pick up’ market.
B.J.
“You just have to order it.”
“I’m gonna guess that that ends up being more expensive. Which is exactly backward.”
Nope. Damn cheap compared to most of what you see sitting on the lot. It’s just that you don’t see them much because not that many people really want them. Resale value on them sucks. Because not many people want them. Getting the picture?
Well I messed that up. Here is Monkeyhawk’s original post followed by my reply:
#
Monkeyhawk
Posted November 21, 2008 at 3:08 pm | Permalink
“outlander” give us –
“I wonder if GM would see Ford’s who would see Chrysler’s business plan. Competition, who cares when you are not competitive. How would Congress know a good plan from a bad plan? And they want to take an equity share?”
Oh my god!
What if General Motors had determined a better battery was the key? And Chrysler’s research were centered on maximizing energy from less-than-efficient batteries? Or Ford came up with aerodynamic cabins which were comfortable for passengers and protected them from collisions?
Oh my god?!
The very fact that their individual approached to producing a product might make them all better?!
Well, that’s “socialism.”
Until they come to Congress and expect all of us — Ford people or Chevy people or Toyota people — to come together and move us closer to a transportation technology that works to the advantage of all of us.
Oh, yeah. That’s “socialism!!”
No.
That’s common sense.
—————————
Well, Monkeyhawk’s making straw monkeys again. But first let’s first clear up for Monkey, the fact that a business plan does not include details of technological discoveries. Look up “business plan” if you are still confused.
And then secondly, let’s also make it clear that technology advancements almost always include intellectual property that has value in a capitalistic society. And contrary to Monkey’s assertion, forced sharing of intellectual property without compensation would be anti-capitalistic and un-American, in addition to socialistic.
Do ranch work in a 1950 straight six Dodge is where it’s at. Push button start on the floor, full choke lever…yeah…
Capn
“But at the time I bought, the space behind the driver and passenger had no functional seating.”
Huh? Are you talking about an extended cab model?
When were you buying one?
My wife’s brother had one, had a back seat, granted it was’nt comfortable for anyone bigger than the average sized bird dog. But it had one.
You can. You just have to order it. It’s usually called a “work truck” package. At least that’s what GM calls it. Vinyl seats, vinyl floor mats etc. It’s even available on the Canyon/Colorado compact pickup line.
==========
Thanks Heck,
I’m not in the market for one right now.
I just hear the bitching from my associates.
You are correct about the resale….LOOOOOW!
CapN — My last VW Super Beetle, 1973, did have AC… worked pretty good… not sure how they did it, but it worked…. Had fun with mom one winter…. she got all worked up cause I said I didnt need to worry about Anti-freeze…. and that I would just take my chances… BUT, we later straightened her out… after a good laugh!!
Want to buy a bank?
Shares outstanding 5,450,000,000
Share Price (21 Nov) $3.77
Total Cost $20,546,500,000
Amount owed to
TaxPayers by CitiCorp: $25,000,000,000
Heck–
2005 . . . it might have been the GM I was thinking of . . .
The Dalai Lama on Capitalism, Socialism, and Income Inequality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3wHx4NLHzE
Also read How FDR Saved Capitalism:
http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/4512566.html
Enjoy…
CNN Breaking News >>>>
Verizon employees fired, after a discovery that they had hacked into Obama Transition Team emails, text messages, and voice mail, and making anonymous, speculations about possible upcoming Cabinet appointments….
Fired?? They should be prosecuted!!
“Verizon employees fired, after a discovery that they had hacked into Obama Transition Team emails, text messages, and voice mail, and making anonymous, speculations about possible upcoming Cabinet appointments….”
Chas do you have a link? The only article I can find on cnn says they could not get email, text message or voice mail.
LOL It was JUST on TV about two minutes before I posted that… sorry if you cant find it!! Might not be on the web site yet…
The news on CNN was that some Verizon employees looked up Obama’s phone records some months ago. He was using a flip phone at that time; there were no emails, text messages, etc. He hasn’t used that phone for awhile. The employees were fired. I have a friend who works for T-Mobile; her training involved being told that the operators were never to look up anyone’s record unless it was a customer who called in for help on something & gave permission. I imagine that training is given by the other cell phone companies also.
Based on what I know about Verizon nothing would surprise me.
“The news on CNN was that some Verizon employees looked up Obama’s phone records some months ago.”
This is what I heard early this morning. From Chas’s info I was wondering if there had been another incident.
Hud, I just told you when I heard that news… I suggest you follow it up if you dont believe me…. I also heard what you heard this morning… This evening was a different twist on the morning story!!
can you hear me now…
“I just told you when I heard that news…”
Just heard it on the news. Same incident as this morning; the change was the termination.
No email, text messages, or voice mails was compromised. Old phone.
I will not argue with you in a stupid pissing contest what I heard, and when… It was radio news this morning…. CNN this evening…. Maybe you were watching FOX…. they sometimes report different stories… As long as the perpetrators were caught, thats all I really care about….
Looks like farmgirl:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,455804,00.html
Rosie Will Get the Last Laugh
Friday, November 21, 2008
Chas
Posted November 21, 2008 at 6:17 pm | Permalink
Hud, I just told you when I heard that news… I suggest you follow it up if you dont believe me….
===========================
Yah Hud, go figure out what Chas heard.
Likely, voices in his head again.
Little things like, Citing Sources, are so difficult sometimes, especially when you make siht up.
Johnson — IF you could read, you would clearly see that I DID cite the source…
Can you say CNN??? DumbA$$
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/21/obama.cell.phone/index.html
Please, add more gratuitous personal insults. It adds class to the blog, you sad sad men.
Obama choses his Secretary of the Treasury, and stocks close sharply higher with Dow surging 500 points to close back above 8,000.
“Part of the reason Obama is making the announcement so soon is the market disarray in recent days. The public roll-out of an economic team could calm those waters.” – Huffpo’
He’s a smart guy who is surrounding himself with smart people.
No link Chas?
Nuthin?
Not able to google a dang thing cause you made it up, I see.
The Phony Preacher is grumpier then usual today.
Sunday should bring some good laughs.
JOHNSON >>>>
Can you say CNN??? DumbA$$
Anybody with half a brain gets grumpy when YOU show up here JOHNSON…. You ignorant stupid POS!!! If you cant type in CNN.com, then it is YOU who is the STUPID Bas*ard!!
Obama FARTS and the market goes up.
Chas
Posted November 21, 2008 at 8:36 pm | Permalink
Anybody with half a brain gets grumpy when YOU show up here JOHNSON…. You ignorant stupid POS!!! If you cant type in CNN.com, then it is YOU who is the STUPID Bas*ard!!
—————————————-
SAY EAGLE, the Preacher is cussing and swearing again!
He really displays the characteristics of a troll, but then, The Eagle needs web hits.
I see the Eagle is going to end this day like all other days -
Chas splattering bird siht everywhere.
Good nite all!
JOHNSON… You want the Blog all to yourself??? GO RIGHT AHEAD…. I for one wont post while your brand of stupidity is posting here… I cant stand being around ANTI-Americans…. who are ANTI government…. and who cant live with the results of the Election just past….
So, have at it DumbSiht!!!
However, a THREE passenger limit… 4 including the driver….
I don’t know about that. I crammed myself and 4 kids (aged 8-18) into my ‘92 Metro. I loved that car. Too bad I drove the shiite out of it, chasing cows in the neighbor’s pasture.
I am so inspired and filled with optimism at the hope the future now brings.
Everynight before I go to sleep, I read this. Obama inspires me oh so much!
“I should like to help everyone if possible; Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, black men, white, red, and yellow. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each others’ happiness, not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way.
Greed has poisoned men’s souls; has barricaded the world with hate; we live in misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Industry that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge as made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than wealth we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. Modern communications and technology have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in man; cries out for universal brotherhood; for the unity of us all.
Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world, millions of despairing men, women, and little children, victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people. To those who can hear me, I say “Do not despair.” The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed, the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish.
Soldiers! Don’t fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! In the seventeenth chapter of St. Luke, it’s written “the kingdom of God is within man”, not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people, have the power, the power to create prosperity, the power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure. Then in the name of democracy, let us use that power.
Let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men and women a chance to work, that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfill their promise. They never will! Evil rulers free themselves but they enslave the people! Now let us fight to fulfill that promise! Let us fight to free the world! To do away with national barriers! To do away with greed, with hate and intolerance! Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness.
Citizens of the world, in the name of democracy, let us all unite!
People can you hear me? Wherever you are, look up! The clouds are lifting! The sun is breaking through! We are coming out of the darkness into the light! We are coming into a new world; a kind new world, where men and women will rise above their hate, their greed, and brutality. Look up! The soul of mankind has been given wings and at last he is beginning to fly. He is flying into the rainbow. Into the light of hope! Into the future! The glorious future! That belongs to you, to me, and to all of us. Look up, everyone! Look up!”
Goodnite everyone, and have sweet dreams of Hope.
Each day going forward will be even more glorious then the last!
Obama will soon build his own kingdom, right here on Earth!
Chas
Posted November 21, 2008 at 8:44 pm | Permalink
JOHNSON… You want the Blog all to yourself??? GO RIGHT AHEAD…. I for one wont post while your brand of stupidity is posting here… I cant stand being around ANTI-Americans…. who are ANTI government…. and who cant live with the results of the Election just past….
So, have at it DumbSiht!!!
—————————————
My My My.
For Shame. For Shame. For Shame.
From a pastor too.
Chas took his ball and went home.
Chas
Posted November 21, 2008 at 8:36 pm | Permalink
Anybody with half a brain gets grumpy when YOU show up here JOHNSON
——————————————
That’s why you get grumpy Chas. If you had a full brain, you wouldn’t feel so bad.
Well, I guess you could fit kids in PreD… I was thinking of adults… BUT… they are terriffic cars!!
FYI — Christmas Music Radio in the City >>>>
FM 97.9 & FM 105.3
All Christmas until Dec. 31
“Part of the reason Obama is making the announcement so soon is the market disarray in recent days. The public roll-out of an economic team could calm those waters.” – Huffpo’
“Huffpo’”
HUH?? Howza ’bout I quote World Net Daily. I think it said Obama is causing the markets to go down. Are we even?
“So, have at it DumbSiht!!!”
Act 2:25
You were right AmericanWay, Chas is starting his Christmas speel already, in between the “B*stards” and “A*sholes”, and other blankety blank words.
Merry Frickin Xmas.
Nathaniel posted November 21, 2008 at 10:12 am
The point being made is that AGW is not settled science. There are still those who disagree and do so with legitimate arguments as to why.
—————
Dennis Avery, Steven Milloy, James Koermer, and similar ilk disagree with the AGW theory, but their arguments are very illegitimate.
“The point being made is that AGW is not settled science. There are still those who disagree and do so with legitimate arguments as to why.”
Dear One-Note-Johnny (Good Lord you are boring):
Nathan is exactly correct. It is not settled science. You people can moan all you want, but it is not settled. (You are the most boring and predictable poster). Are you paid? If so, I’d like to give you props. That would be awesome and would deserve kudos. Are you paid to blog the global warming position?
fleettwood,
cosmos is a one subject blogger and drones on like a broken record. His posts have become scroll-over material as they are mind numbing boring.
There won’t be a darn bit of climate change that man can effect one way or another, even long after the worms are through with cosmos.
fleettwood posted November 21, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Nathan is exactly correct. It is not settled science.
—————–
Then WHY doesn’t Nathaniel post some science to refute AGW? Instead he posts falsehoods and nonscientific nonsense from Avery, Milloy, et al.
JimJohnson/Max,
Posts:
“I am so inspired and filled with optimism at the hope the future now brings.
“Everynight before I go to sleep, I read this. Obama inspires me oh so much!”
JimJohnson is also known as a SatireSock. Ignore and scroll over his posts. You will feel better as a result.
Boy, isn’t that the truth. When his favorite site IPCC?) is found to be cooking the date to fit the socialist, “bury your car, we should all make the same money, our lawn mowers are killing us, golf courses are bad, $4 gas is good” agenda, he must be looking for ways out. We have 20 mph winds all the time. We are on a plain. Doesn’t our “pollution” go north or south?
So, then, it’s OK if OUR pollution contaminates OTHERS??? Damn, how sweet of us!!
ROFLMAO!!!
So, JOHNSON, do you think the City will ever get finished with that blasted Construction on N. West Street??
““Everynight before I go to sleep, I read this. Obama inspires me oh so much!””
You can call it satire if you wish, but you have read the same thing in the MSM. i.e. (to paraphrase) now that Obama has been elected, I feel that I am whole.
“A majority of blacks now believe that a solution to the country’s racial problems will eventually be found,” Holland said. “In every previous poll on this topic dating back to 1993, black respondents had always said that racial problems were a permanent part of the American landscape.”
“Even in polls taken earlier this year, a majority of African-Americans said that a solution to the country’s racial problems would never be found; now blacks and whites agree that racial tensions may end.”
So, last week, all was crap. Now, Obama will be the prez and all is fine? What a load!
That would be in Wichita :-)
I don’t get involved in the “‘SoAndSo’ is a sock puppet for ‘LameLoser’ who used to post here” nym-chasing posts.
Since this phenomenon most often comes when a new right wing-nut shows up (remember “Kandi-whatever?) and a discredited poster disappears, I appreciate the appeal. I mean, “Franklin” (nee “Econ101″} is either posting here under another nym or is still whimpering in the fetal position in the closet because America has elected “a former-Muslim-member-of-the-Manson-Family.’
It’s pretty clear some people think the best way to participate in this forum is to stuff the ballot box and show up here as ostensibly unique people who support, well, abject insanity.
I don’t care. I live in Kansas and there’s nothing in this land of Phillip and Phelps to convince me there’s plenty of individuals who could be bats#it insane. Every new and gone poster to WE Blog is a different person for all I care. I have better things to do in my life than try to track down who “JimJohnson” is or was. (That one’s about thirty items dowmn my personal “bucket list from “inspect all sneakers for fraying shoelaces.”)
Look. There may well be some validity to the classic “Long-time lurker, first-time poster” disclaimer that sometimes shows up. But the nic-switchers don’t even bother. They just show up in a thread under a new nym and call up half-a-dozen quotes from people we all know frequently participate in this forum.
But trying to track down who-is-really-who? is not productive.
I assume “Franklin” was a totally different person than “Econ101.” I most certainly understand how “Econt101″ came to the realization his crazy arrogant ignorance had lost traction. And I haven’t heard from “Franklin” since before election day. And I’ve noticed an uptick of “JimJohnson” posts to fill in the lamented loss of “Econ101″ or “Franklin” posts. I mean, there’s always another soldier to step up and fight for the fallen.
There used to be a poster to this forum who was known as “Nathan.” Y’know, this guy “Nathaniel” reminds me a lot about “Nathan.” But as far as WE Blog is concerned, they’re two different people.
I used to discuss issues with “Hank” but something happened and the closest poster I can compare “Hank” to is the relative newcomer “HLP.”
There used to be a contributor who called him/herself “Kansas.” I miss that poster’s inanity but the vacuum of that loss has more than been filled by the one who uses “Regular” as a nym. Perhaps there’s a lesson here about the balance of the universe; “what is no longer will replace that which is lost.” (That Buddha! What a way with words!)
May (”Nathanial’s” version of) God have mercy on the Buddha’s soul!
fleettwoody is a bigot? Small surprise there…
No Fleettwood… YOU are the load of crap… always judgmental; always negative; always fear mongering… just what this country needs… /sarcasm off
NOT!!
“But trying to track down who-is-really-who? is not productive.”
I agree. But the temptation is too appealing, I admit that.
fleettwood posted November 21, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Doesn’t our “pollution” go north or south?
————
CO2? It has a lifetime of about a century, and it goes global.
Flettywoody,
Your last post was several minutes ago. Where are you, oh wise one?
Afraid to post, I donn’t blame you, you DF!
donn’t = don’t
“fleettwoody is a bigot?”
Where did that come from? I don’t deserve that.
“CO2? It has a lifetime of about a century, and it goes global.”
Carbon Dioxide? So what. Cut down the trees? I’m against that. I’m an eco-nut that way.
I’m talking about the real air pollution.
You haven’t answered my question. Are you paid. I hope you are. That is productive.
Cosmos,
Blogging requires electricity that comes from coal plants. Why do you add to global warming/cooling/lukewarm? Are you intentionally trying to kill mankind?
#
Monkeyhawk
Posted November 21, 2008 at 9:46 pm | Permalink
May (”Nathanial’s” version of) God have mercy on the Buddha’s soul!
========================================================
. . . or, as some would say, “May Buddha have mercy on God’s soul!”
Wonder which one is fact, and which is fiction.
#
ANTI
Posted November 21, 2008 at 10:21 pm | Permalink
Cosmos,
Blogging requires electricity that comes from coal plants. Why do you add to global warming/cooling/lukewarm? Are you intentionally trying to kill mankind?
=======================================================
Contemplating such requires calories, which require replacement in the form of nutrition intake, which usually come from dead plants and/or animals, all of which required food intake ad nasturtium, ultimately adding to the slow complete destruction of the planet at some point in time, followed by the universal big poop. (Beat that run-on sentence, dude!)
Damn vicious circle, ain’t it? So what’s your point?
universal big poop should read, UNIVERSAL BIG POOP!
Damn vicious circle, ain’t it? So what’s your point?
=============
Cosmos should live in a grass hut?
JM, I don’t speak Latin.
http://www.explosm.net/comics/1465/
ANTI — You struggle hard with intelligible English!! LOL
For those not familiar with the UNIVERSAL BIG POOP, should read “FSM for Dummies.” In it FSM explains the final days. First will come the Rupture, in which all odd numbered births will immediately rupture, which hardly requires an explanation.
Finally comes the UNIVERSAL BIG POOP!” This is told in no uncertain terms to be just the opposite of the “BIG BANG!” Everything in the universe will suddenly poop, causing the universe to flush, which will totally vanish everything. FSM will then contemplate his next move for, oh, say, four or five billion years.
Ramen!
ANTI
Posted November 21, 2008 at 10:42 pm | Permalink
JM, I don’t speak Latin
======================================================
Agricola!!!!!
Looks like Johnson’s keepers called him back to his padded room, so he wouldnt hurt himself bouncing around the computer room!!
ROFLMAO!!!
“Witness to Jonestown” @ 11 p.m. MSNBC
Most interesting program….
“Cosmos should live in a grass hut?”
“Knowing” BJ over the years, I have a feeling he’s not far from it. “The Man won’t keep me down, I will live on the Vision card”.
That’s a Lib name for a Welfare card, isn’t it?
Vision card?
More like the “Blind to opportunity” card.
Hey! I’ll meet you at the Turkey give away! I’ll call you on my cell phone and we’ll watch TV on my portable battery powered laptop. We’ll get up at 3:30 AM and walk past the want ads in the Eagle.
Sounds like a winner to me, JM LOL
Agricola!!!!!
================
JM, I don’t speak Mexican. I speak Amurican. ;)
For those interested, This Sunday is the last Sunday in the Church Calendar Year… It is called Festiva Christo Rey (Festival of Christ the King) — New Years Eve, for those in Rio Lindo….
Thursday, is the Celebration of Thanksgiving (not a Church Holiday)… time for feasts and football!!
November 30, begins the Season of Advent, the time of Preparation and Contemplation for the Feast of the Nativity. (AKA Christmas)
The First Sunday in Advent is New Year’s Day on the Church Calendar.
“Regular” is the only poster on this forum on public assistance there BDP Fleet. Go meet him. He doesn’t get out a lot.
Fleettwood… LOTS of people dont work for The Man… nor do they live on a Vision Card… you might want to pull your head out, and get a glimpse of reality…. ya think??
For those not familiar with the UNIVERSAL BIG POOP
==============
Oh I am familiar….Every morning after 2 cups of coffee. I suppose you could call it a religious experience.
More bad news from electoral-vote.com for the cons….
“Public’s View of the Republican Party Continues to Drop
A new Gallup poll shows that 34% of Americans have a favorable view of the Republican Party vs. 61% who have an unfavorable view. The 61% unfavorable is the highest for any party in history. For the Democrats the numbers are 55% favorable and 39% unfavorable. As the debate rages within the Republican Party about what to do, the poll gives some guidance. Some 59% of the Republicans polled want it to become more conservative, 28% want it to remain the same, and only 12% want it to become less conservative. With most of the congressional moderates defeated either in 2006 or 2008, the remaining Republicans are very conservative and come from states and districts that are also very conservative, so individual members of Congress have a strong personal incentive to see the party become more conservative: to enhance their chances at the next election. The only problem with this strategy is that piling up even bigger margins in Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Utah is not much consolation if you lose Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Indiana, Ohio, Colorado, New Mexico, and Nevada by even bigger margins as a result.”
A national party no more.
Non cons don’t like cons.
Cons think they should show just how bad bad can be.
Goodbye GOP! Enjoy the political wilderness!
A video of some of the coolest quick art I have seen in some time.
Imagine-
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/to-dream-p1.php
#
ANTI
Posted November 21, 2008 at 11:02 pm | Permalink
For those not familiar with the UNIVERSAL BIG POOP
==============
Oh I am familiar….Every morning after 2 cups of coffee. I suppose you could call it a religious experience.
=======================================================
Now imagine the entire universe, dark matter and all, doing the 2cup morning thingy at the same time. Personally, I have no intention of imagining that: It’s best left to FSM
Personally, I have no intention of imagining that: It’s best left to FSM
===========
Agreed.
““Regular” is the only poster on this forum on public assistance”
Is he the one who receives the benefits he earned through his military service? Or am I wrong?
#
ANTI
Posted November 21, 2008 at 11:10 pm | Permalink
A video of some of the coolest quick art I have seen in some time.
Imagine-
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/to-dream-p1.php
===================================================
Now That’s talent! Thanks.
Have you verified that military service “fleet”?
See? This is why you are called the blogs dumbest poster.
well, today has been quite long….
good night; good luck; god bless —-
whatever you conceive god to be…
blessings ALL!!
Celebrate the Festival of Christ the King!!
(in whatever way you feel led to do so)
so mote it be!!
#
BlueJay
Posted November 21, 2008 at 11:25 pm | Permalink
Have you verified that military service “fleet”?
See? This is why you are called the blogs dumbest poster.
—————
Steven Davis has verified it. I showed him my retired military card ID.
Well THAT’s interesting.
I asked “fleetwood” a question and “Regular” answered it.
fleettwood,
Are you paid to post your stupid, ignorant falsehoods opposing the AGW theory?
#
BlueJay
Posted November 21, 2008 at 11:41 pm | Permalink
Well THAT’s interesting.
I asked “fleetwood” a question and “Regular” answered it.
—————
No, what’s interesting is why you are so obsessed with me even when I’m not online. I just happen to stop by.
Since you took the coward’s way out on the meet up, you did not get the privilege of meeting me or seeing my military ID card – (of which I said I would show to you before the meeting)
dumb ass
“Steven Davis has verified it. I showed him my retired military card ID.”
I’m not sure if that will satisfy BJ. He’s known all along that you were collecting benefits you earned, and he calls it “welfare” on the taxpayer.
Then, he’s the first in line to call foul on Walter Reed. Go figure.
“Are you paid to post your stupid, ignorant falsehoods opposing the AGW theory?”
No, I am not. I have answered your question. I asked you a question (without the insults), are you paid? I will say again (being a capitalist/entrapanure (or however you spell it, I hope you are.
Regular posted November 19, 2008 at 8:14 pm
#
cosmos_originally posted November 19, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Regular posted November 19, 2008 at 8:00 pm
#
cosmos_originally posted November 19, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Regular,
This is a public blog. If you want to have a private conversation with Blaidd, then get his/her email, and have it away from this blog.
======================
Correct, this is a public blog.
It also means it doesn’t give you license to harass other posters day after day over a three year period.
—————————————-
Regular, if you don’t want to see examples of your lies, then don’t ask to see them.
Regular posted November 19, 2008 at 11:09 am
Oh yeah?
Name some of those proven lies
======================
Again dunder head, I did not address this to you now did I?
What part of ‘unwelcome butting in’ do you not understand?
It’s quite clear that posters cosmos and Junior don’t want to discuss anything, they are just here to attack other posters.
As seen in cosmos November 21, 2008 at 11:49 pm post
and Junior’s November 21, 2008 at 10:59 pm post.
Here you go, cosmo:
“I used this data to show that the trend at 300 hPa was not about 2.5 x the surface trend which is what greenhouse warming [models] requires.” Apparently climate models that predict global warming ala increasing levels of atmospheric CO2 assume increasing temperature trends in the troposphere, where CO2 concentrates, and the reality is the troposphere is not getting hotter, it is getting cooler.
Before we radically rearrange the political economy of the world because some scientists claim anthropogenic CO2 is the cause of climate change, it might be worthwhile for anyone taking a position on the topic to consider whether or not this is indeed “well settled science.”
I hope we have a BINGO!
“Before we radically rearrange the political economy of the world…, it might be worthwhile for anyone taking a position on the topic to consider whether or not this is indeed “well settled science.””
Well, let’s do this.
I volunteer to meet “fleetwood” and “Regular” at a time and place of their choosing as is convenient and agreeable to me and my schedule.
This gives “Regular” the chance to shoot me and “fleetwood” the chance to prove he isn’t “Regular”.
Since “fleetwood” seemed to sound an awful lot LIKE “Regular” in that last?
The invite is out.
It’s midnight America. Another hour and day closer to better times.
fleettwood posted November 21, 2008 at 11:49 pm
I asked you a question (without the insults), are you paid?
—————-
No. Who would pay someone to post on a blog that features the BDP, multi-nic’d Regular, et al?
And your denial of AGW science is stupid and ignorant. That’s a fact, not an “insult”.
“Since “fleetwood” seemed to sound an awful lot LIKE “Regular” in that last?”
That is silly. You’ve been on this blog long enough to know better.
My denial of Global warming? That’s easy. You people use it for your own purposes. Totally bogus.
Regular,
Well-mixed atmospheric CO2 levels have risen by about 100 ppm since the Industrial Age, and are higher than they’ve been for about 800,000 years.
Would you please “discuss” why you insisted that Ben said that those levels were “static”?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/11/open-thread-1119/#comment-471808
fleettwood,
Thank you for proving my 12:01 am post, with your 11:55 pm post.
“…it might be worthwhile for anyone taking a position on the topic to consider whether or not this is indeed “well settled science.””
You mean this bit of sensible thought?
Like usual, you people go over the board.
I thought changing our lawn mower engines was going to save all of us. Not enough?
The more this goes on, the more we know why you people keep pushing it.
“We draw your attention to three observational refutations of the IPCC position (and note there are more). Ice-core data from the ACIA (Arctic Climate Impact Assessment) shows that temperatures have fallen since around 4,000 years ago (the Bronze Age Climate Optimum) while CO2 levels have risen, yet this graphical data was not included in the IPCC Summary for Policymakers (Fig. SPM1 Feb07) which graphed the CO2 rise.”
fleettwood,
Thank you for yet AGAIN proving my 12:01 am post, with your 12:30 am post.
fleettwood,
Thank you for yet AGAIN proving my 12:01 am post, with your 12:35 am post.
BlueJay,
You better hurry up and get in line for your “free” government handouts.
Things will be so much better… LOL
Just keep telling yourself that. In 4 years and maybe even after 8 years of Obama you will still be right where you are at with your hand out wondering why your life isn’t any better.
OK, cosmo, I give up. What does:
“Thank you for yet AGAIN proving my 12:01 am post, with your 12:35 am post.” Prove??
Does it prove that GW is IFFY?
fleettwood posted November 22, 2008 at 12:52 am
Does it prove that GW is IFFY?
———–
Nope! It just proves that the BDP is very ignorant and/or stupid re AGW science.
“Nope! It just proves that the BDP is very ignorant and/or stupid re AGW science.”
I have a feeling you believe in GW the same way that Nathan and Hank believe in the young Earth.
It is only and forever a matter of Faith.
I must say, they are not insulting about our differences in the origin argument. You seem to use the insult as your first weapon. “You don’t believe in Global Warming”? “Well, you must be really stupid”. “And I’ll badger the elementary children until they are on board!
I will say it loud and proud.
As chas would say (in CAPS):
I win. Which means ya’ll don’t. Oh well.
#
BlueJay
Posted November 21, 2008 at 11:59 pm | Permalink
Well, let’s do this.
I volunteer to meet “fleetwood” and “Regular” at a time and place of their choosing as is convenient and agreeable to me and my schedule.
This gives “Regular” the chance to shoot me and “fleetwood” the chance to prove he isn’t “Regular”.
Since “fleetwood” seemed to sound an awful lot LIKE “Regular” in that last?
The invite is out.
It’s midnight America. Another hour and day closer to better times.
—————–
How about this numb nuts,
Just stop accusing posters of switching nics and being some one else.
Moron
fleettwood posted November 22, 2008 at 1:37 am
I have a feeling you believe in GW the same way that Nathan and Hank believe in the young Earth.
It is only and forever a matter of Faith.
I must say, they are not insulting about our differences in the origin argument. You seem to use the insult as your first weapon. “You don’t believe in Global Warming”? “Well, you must be really stupid”. “And I’ll badger the elementary children until they are on board!
——————–
Nope! It’s a matter of scientific methodology, and observations.
You want to refute the AGW theory? Then you have to do the following:
Show that CO2, methane, etc are not “greenhouse” gases, and that higher levels of those GHG’s would not cause GW.
And explain what causes the following (which are explained by AGW)
* The warming since the mid-1970’s (solar and cosmic rays do not explain it)
* Fastest warming at upper Northern latitudes
* Higher ocean heat content.
* Cooling of Earths upper atmosphere.