“Nineteen months after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., declared the war in Iraq ‘lost’ and just nine months after Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., asserted the war has been a ‘failure’ because it had not brought political change leading to reconciliation, it can now be said conclusively that both were wrong,” wrote columnist Cal Thomas. “One of the great military reversals in history is close to achieving victory. That is contributing to stability in Iraq, along with reconciliation between warring factions.”
Still, as Thomas acknowledged, that stability and reconciliation is fragile, as evidenced by more bombings this week.
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76 Comments
Yup.
So says those who are there; my oldest, who is about to go back, relates that where is going three years ago incoming rounds were fairly routine. Today, there hasn’t been an incoming in almost two years. It’s not perfect, but these low levels of violence, and growing reconciliation, would not have been thought possible three years. It’s fragile, but there has been real progress and real success. Hell – you’re more likely to be shot in Chicago than serving in Iraq (And with perhaps the strictist gun control laws – now certainly unconstitutional – in the country, BTW. How’s that working out? Isn’t victim disarmament wonderful?). http://www.citizensugar.com/1919267
But you will not hear an admission of their error out of Pelosi and Co.
We must now take care how we withdraw to avoid throwing away what has been bitterly won.
It’s all about Iraq, isn’t it? . . . . Yep, it’s all about Iraq and…India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and… and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah, … nor follow the religion of truth… until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.” Qur’an, Sura 9:29 ———– the religion of peacehttp://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
VICTORY IN IRAQ — http://www.zombietime.com/vi_day/
I hope Cal is right. Time will tell whether the ARI will stand up after so many years of training etc.
Yeah, Cal Thomas, what a credible guy. DIdn’t he release Valerie Plame’s identity as revenge for her ambassador husband’s report that stated Iraq did not in fact have WMD?
Eagle editors, why don’t you join the 21st century and run a contemporary conservative like David Brooks?
There’s a light at the end of the tunnel, you bet! We’ve heard that one before.
Pelosi is a failure. I still cannot believe her idea of increasing capital gains taxes so that illegals can have a better life. What a moron.
Does anyone have any sources on what is making the surge work? Bob Woodward won’t say, citing national security concerns.
I have heard that the surge is working because of targeted killings of thousands of people who would have started an uprising if allowed to. Don’t know if that is true or not. I heard it from a pacifist, so it could be false.
“Is working” doesn’t mean squat unless it leads to “It worked.”
And we’ll never know if “It worked” until American troops are out of there.
It’s all in how you label it, instability and bombings are a daily fact of life, so you can either declare it a victory and pat yourself on the back, or declare it a failure and say I told you so. Either way, won’t change the facts on the ground.
Glass half full or half empty, we’ll find out when the glass breaks after we leave.
True, M.H.
A link regarding what Woodward is saying about the surge:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/09/09/iraq.secret/
Monkeyhawk
Posted November 26, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink
“Is working” doesn’t mean squat unless it leads to “It worked.”
And we’ll never know if “It worked” until American troops are out of there.
—————————————————-
This is true. I’ll trust the Generals positions however on the timing of that vs. a bunch of suits in Washington.
The purge is working!
“Mr_Kia” responds –
“I’ll trust the Generals positions however on the timing of that vs. a bunch of suits in Washington.”
Which makes you un-American, “Mr_Kia.”
An essential tenet of the Constitution is civilian oversight of the military.
A guy in a suit has to be the Commander in Chief, otherwise we’re no better than a tin-horn military dictatorship.
(And what’s it say about Moammar Khadafi and Libya that the guy runs everything and only promotes himself to Colonel?! Hell, in America Colonels are reduced to frying the chicken!)
But I digress….
I’ve not heard anyone define “victory in Iraq.”
Care to share your definition with us, “Mr_Kia?”
Which makes you un-American, “Mr_Kia.”
Lighten up, MH. Must this always be a game of ‘gotcha’ with you?
No one is questioning civilian control of the military. However, if our actions are in large part informed by the situation on the ground in Iraq, it seems best to listen to those on the ground in Iraq, ya think?
As to the definition, this is from the White House:
—
As the central front in the global war on terror, success in Iraq is an essential element in the long war against the ideology that breeds international terrorism. Unlike past wars, however, victory in Iraq will not come in the form of an enemy’s surrender, or be signaled by a single particular event — there will be no Battleship Missouri, no Appomattox. The ultimate victory will be achieved in stages, and we expect:
In the short term:
An Iraq that is making steady progress in fighting terrorists and neutralizing the insurgency, meeting political milestones; building democratic institutions; standing up robust security forces to gather intelligence, destroy terrorist networks, and maintain security; and tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy.
In the medium term:
An Iraq that is in the lead defeating terrorists and insurgents and providing its own security, with a constitutional, elected government in place, providing an inspiring example to reformers in the region, and well on its way to achieving its economic potential.
In the longer term:
An Iraq that has defeated the terrorists and neutralized the insurgency.
An Iraq that is peaceful, united, stable, democratic, and secure, where Iraqis have the institutions and resources they need to govern themselves justly and provide security for their country.
An Iraq that is a partner in the global war on terror and the fight against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, integrated into the international community, an engine for regional economic growth, and proving the fruits of democratic governance to the region.
—
It seems – and it is fragile, which is why we must be careful as we withdraw to not lose what has been gained – that the short-term definition has been met, or at least is quite close. There are signs of the mid-term definition. Of course, long term will have to wait. We can only do the best we can to make the best of the situation as it is.
I agree with the definition GMC posted from the White House.
And I leave that to the recommendation of commanding officers within the country itself as the commander in chief should.
“Yeah, Cal Thomas, what a credible guy. Didn’t he release Valerie Plame’s identity as revenge for her ambassador husband’s report that stated Iraq did not in fact have WMD?”
First; it was Robert Novak not Cal Thomas and second; Plame’s husband never went to Iraq, he went to Niger. Thirdly; it was an opinion not a fact. You libs seem to think everything another liberal spews is the gospel truth. It’s more like Kool-aide.
Now that we have a Democrat as president I’m sure Pelosi and Reed will be all for the war and even claim credit for the victory. If the Democrats had their way, we’d have surrendered in Iraq and we’d be fighting the war against terrorism on our own streets.
All that gobbledygook, “GMC70″ –
And what does it mean?!
Not much if it has enough weasel words to blame the next administration for every “insurgent” bombing that ends up killing innocent Iraqis (as the media pays no attention to today, or Monday, or Sunday, or last Friday….).
The democratically-elected Iraqi government can’t decide on the “Security Pact” which the Shrub Administration and you 24%-ers claim as the latest evidence “the Surge is working.”
I go back to my original observation in this thread. “The Surge is working” doesn’t mean squat until the world can say “the Surged worked” and we won’t know that until all Americans are out of Iraq.
And I bet it won’t.
And what does it mean?!
English is apparantly not your strong suit.
Color me not surprised.
So is it that you don’t believe Democracy can work in the Middle East or in a predominantly Muslism nation?
Suicide attacks will likely be a part of life in Iraq for years to come (as they are in Israel) whether or not American forces remain.
Ok Monkey,
Will you 20%-ers believe the surge is working if your “Messiah” gets credit for it? I’m sure the insurgents decided that since the Obama win, they would just give up. The latest bombings are just a little farewell gesture and celebration. Will that make you a believer?
“Will that make you a believer?”
I can’t speak for MH but here is my answer: The ARI taking over security throughout the country. Them ’standing up’ so that our forces can ’stand down’
Oh yes, let’s get Woodward, the world authority on every thing that needs to be interpreted in Liberal speak.
BTW, a congratulations and ‘we’re proud of you’ to all of our troops.
Disregard the crows on the fence liberals, they are going to caw and pick at the carrion of war no matter who wins.
Pessimistic sunsabiches…
The “messiah” is going to get at least 4 years of his cards on the table — Democrats / Liberals / leftists / Marxists and Socialists better get used to the idea of being bent over for their daily anal probe — outta be fun — lets see if what they have dished out for the last 8 – they can take
Pessimistic sunsabiches… is about right
“daily anal probe”
You ahve a real anal fetish don’t you dadman? Is that because that is where your head is?
GMC70 and Mr.Kia,
Moneyhawk and others on this has been diagnosed with liberalism which is now a mental disease. There is no cure so we must be tolerant. Make sure you don’t use any words with more than 3 syllables and whatever you do only use references from left wing, socialist or communists websites or authors. We still outnumber them.
sure ya do dondumbdon – that is why you won the last election!
Did you get that dadman and Regular?
#
bth
Posted November 26, 2008 at 4:32 pm | Permalink
sure ya do dondumbdon – that is why you won the last election!
—————
partisan all the way aren’t ya ben?
You really want to chain saw the country in half with that attitude?
“You really want to chain saw the country in half with that attitude?”
Toward people who say “Moneyhawk and others on this has been diagnosed with liberalism which is now a mental disease” – YES!
“Pessimistic sunsabiches…”
A bit partisan yourself?
What does bth stand for? backward-thinking-head or back-to-hell? We could have a field day with this one. Anybody got any guesses?
The right had no candidate and didn’t have ACORN types voting multiple times. At least we don’t have to listen to all that crazy whining for the next 4 years.
My educated guess would be his first, middle and last initials — since he is a known person by most of us who post here.
Kind of like HLP who is also known as friend to many of us.
Regular,
“partisan all the way aren’t ya BEN?”
I see it’s play on Joe the plumber.
Let’s see: Ben the huskster or Ben the halfwit or Ben the heckler or Been there homie. Have you had enough of your juvenile name calling, Buster the hasbeen halfhearted hopeless hustler.
You bore me ben.
I’m glad I bore you dondumbmumb.
I probably failed to mention that Ben is not only a known but a highly respected and well liked person here on the blog.
Don’t tell me there are several juveniles who post here. At least I’ll know which ones you are.
“Buster the hasbeen halfhearted hopeless hustler.”
Oh look, he’s so clever.
Such a clever little man!
“there are several juveniles who post here”
for example …
donndublin
Regular
dadman
Hi Tara – planning a good feast tomorrow? Any special Hawaiian dishes?
#
bth
Posted November 26, 2008 at 5:46 pm | Permalink
“there are several juveniles who post here”
for example …
donndublin
Regular
dadman
————–
juvenile eh?
I’d rather be juvenile than walk blindly through life with blinders on like you and the other crats do.
partisan all the way aren’t ya regular?
You really want to chain saw the country in half with that attitude?
Juvenile is going back a bit too far, but young adult would work well for me.
Then there is reality. :-(
Blinders, huh. Funny man. ;-)
linda – what I found rather amusing was regular complaining about me being partisan.
Riiiight. If Regular hasn’t recognized Goldwater Republicans by now, there is no hope. I think he just enjoys the debate. ;-)
linda – I remember Dennis Hastert having one of the old elephant pins with the black glasses back when I worked on his campaign. It’s too bad he morphed from a Goldwater Republican into what he became as Speaker of the House.
Agreed! However the Democratic Party comes much closer than what the Republican Party has morphed into.
With many wondering when the Republican Party will return to what made it Grand, why in the world do they continue pandering to the police the world and legislate morality crowds? They aren’t actually even crowd! It takes both combined of them to make a minority!
I’m going back to the real world. You kids don’t stay up too late. You really shouldn’t play deep water. I would suggest you stay in the shallow end of the open thread if you’re going to play. You’re way over your head and might drown.
That last post came out a bit of word salad!
They aren’t even crowds! It takes both of them combined to make a minority!
sigh
the ‘keepers’ at the asylum must be restricting dondumbdumb’s computer access.
Planning a big turkey dinner tomorrow linda?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27891075/
ENJOY!
:)
I am! In fact, a turkey and a ham with ALL the trimmings. Smaller group this year as my two oldest grandsons (away at west coast schools) and my son on the east coast aren’t going to be here. Guess the smaller group will need to eat more. We’ll be all together at Christmas.
13 people ages 4-80 at my home last Saturday – wild time with the 7 kids tree-climbing out back. Lots of fun.
Another dinner with friends tomorrow.
When are you going to graduate to writing paragraphs ben? Oh I forgot, they go ahead and pass you semi-literates along these days don’t they. If you use copy and paste, you might come close.
Brevity is the soul of wit
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/74850.html
So why use more words than needed to convey the message?
WHAT is successful in Iraq?
We are still wasting billions of dollars and maintaining a sizable occupation force there. That and PAYING people not to act out. That don’t look like victory to me.
BlueJay – I’ll stick with my definition above. When the ARI can stand up and out troops stand down I might call it a sort of operational success. If we can avoid simply creating ‘another saddam’ and actually end up with some sort of pluralist democracy then perhaps a real victory can be claimed.
Time will tell. Saddam was strongly supported by the west as long as he was ‘our despot.’ I have a feeling we will simply repeat that pattern.
G’night linda, BlueJay. Have a great holiday with family and friends!
No Ben, I support the men and women of our military and their successes.
I don’t piss on their legs like you and the other Libs do.
“I don’t piss on their legs like you and the other Libs do.”
Well, since I have never done that I really have no clue what you are talking about. I HAVE worked with many war veterans to help them get re-integrated into society (especially education) but I don’t really see how that constitutes “pissing on their legs”
You’re just being querulous, not to mention stubborn and aggravating! Get off your high horse and realize that a political party affiliation has nothing to do with respecting, admiring, thanking and supporting our soldiers. Such remarks as, “I don’t piss on their legs like you and the other Libs do,” demean you!
Actually linda – in order to ‘demean’ him there would have to be a shred of dignity in the first place. And, since he doesn’t …
“To debase, as in dignity or social standing”
#
donndublin
Posted November 26, 2008 at 3:55 pm | Permalink
Now that we have a Democrat as president I’m sure Pelosi and Reed will be all for the war and even claim credit for the victory. If the Democrats had their way, we’d have surrendered in Iraq and we’d be fighting the war against terrorism on our own streets.
______________________________________________
PSSST! Donnie…
George Bush is president. He’s not a Democrat. But you can still pretend in your own mind that you’re somehow superior.
nitwit.
“Pessimistic sunsabiches… is about right”
Oh my gosh! Is there another Islamic sect in Iraq, now? The Sunnis, the Shiites and the Sunsabiches? This is gonna screw everything up!
…have heard that the surge is working because of targeted killings of thousands of people who would have started an uprising if allowed to.
I’ve heard it’s $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Lots of it. But, hey, we’ve got plenty (from the Chinese), so I guess that makes it okay.
The Sunnis, the Shiites and the Sunsabiches?
It’s definitely going to confuse McCain.
“We must now take care how we withdraw to avoid throwing away what has been bitterly won.”
And there it IS. In the first comment posted by a con to this thread.
There was never any intention of “winning” in Iraq.
Iraq is meant to be occupied in perpetuity. In choosing Gates, Obama has tipped his hand that he is in with this.
Jay,
I hope you are not correct.
We will see…
Military victory in Iraq happened long ago. Now we are simply trying to provide enough security and training so that the Iraqis can develop a stable government with their own security forces. We are in fact an occupying power. I am certainly not a fan of Bush or this war, but for those naysayers, the surge definitely worked on a temporary basis. For those of you with short memories, before the war started, one of the Pentagon guys estimated it would take 500,000 soldiers to do the job right. He was ridiculed by the Bush crowd because they knew that would not be politically acceptible. He was then fired or asked to resign. Well, years later, he was right and the Bush crowd wrong. At the peak of our efforts, we had/have approx. 150,000 troops in Iraq, and another 100,000+ contractors doing jobs that our military should be doing. With those numbers, it has taken us years to provide a measure of security in the country. If we had went in with 500,000 soldiers, the job would have been done much sooner and the money spent would have been less because we would have been able to get out in 3-4 years instead of 10 years! Anytime this country decides on military force, we need to do it with overwhelming force! It minimizes casualties, and allows total subjugation of the populace which will help to avoid terrorist acts.
“dtimmons” –
Overwhelming Force is a key element of the Powell Doctrine from 1991.
Cheney and Rumsfeld scotched all that.
They thought they could conduct war on the cheap.
Shrub didn’t matter. He embodies arrogant ignorance.
Remember how Iraqi oil was supposed to pay the whole cost of Dumbya’s invasion?
It’s absolutely insane the taxpayers of America are forced to spend more money than all others COMBINED! on defense. The Kuwait War was the Powell Doctrine at its best; many nations as allies, overwhelming force, definite goals, an exit strategy…
Rumsfeld and Cheney abandoned all that. They were too cute by half.
We’ll be dealing with their colossal screw-up for a while.
XXX:
EXCUUUUUSE ME!!!!!!!
Now that we WILL have a Democrat as president I’m sure Pelosi and Reed WILL be all for the war and even claim credit for the victory.
I sorry you have half my IQ and didn’t get the point I made. Hell, half the posts on here inadvertently omit words or transpose the spelling but I still know what point is being made. Maybe you should have one of your teachers edit your comments before you post them.
dtimmons posted November 27, 2008 at 8:00 am
For those of you with short memories, before the war started, one of the Pentagon guys estimated it would take 500,000 soldiers to do the job right.
—————————-
Even 400,000 would not guarantee that it would be done “right”.
‘”Desert Crossing” 1999 Assumed 400,000 Troops and Still a Mess’
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB207/index.htm
BJ,
“In choosing Gates, Obama has tipped his hand that he is in with this.”
Do you feel like a used peace of toilet paper now?
“meet the new boss, same as the old boss……..
WE (WILL)GET FOOLED AGAIN!” – The Who
I first started to fully appreciate “Won’t Get Fooled Again” back in the early ’80s, after college and minoring in Russian history (think about it). Later on, I learned details about the ’60s counterculture that I was too young to appreciate at the time, I realized that the lyrics were probably a somewhat tongue-in-cheek commentary on the transformation and decline of the idealistic Hippie movement of the ’60’s in the wake of Altamonte, Kent State, the Manson murders and mounting casualties from drug overdoses. Released in 1971, it was also prophetic of the cynicism to which the ’60s counterculture would give way in the ’70s.