“Old arguments about the 1960s never die. They just provide skeletons to pull out of the closet and rattle at opponents during presidential campaigns.” That was the conclusion of columnist Clarence Page after interviewing William Ayers and listening to him speak during his book tour. Ayers refuses to give a blanket apology for the extremist side of anti-war protests, but he would be willing to participate in a truth and reconciliation process alongside government leaders who started the Vietnam War and kept it going. But Page said that “there’s not much chance that our Vietnam generation will reach closure through a truth commission or anything else.”
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95 Comments
Best way to reconcile with Ayers is with a tightly packed nail bomb.
Shame on you Reg. He has turned his life around and admitted he was wrong on many counts. Have you found forgiveness yet for your past mistakes?
Ayres really is a non-issue in that even though I remember the weather underground if he had walked up and introduces himself I would have not known who or what he had done. There are many wounds that still need to be healed. The greatest is how we as a country treated the troops, even if they did not physically experienced a spit in the face. They did receive a insult as great, we as a nation denied and or refused to give them the respect of their service. The first time I ever said it, it brought about a life changing moment.
A simple “Thank you for your service and welcome home soldier” brought a flood of tears from the person I said it to. He then said he had been back for over ten years and I was the first to say that to him. That not even his own parents had. They had not talked to him about his service nor asked how he was feeling. They did not want to talk about his time in war.
What Ayres did means nothing in the grand scheme of things, the damage was repaired and it was as if he had done nothing. His actions did not give him the power to stop the war or even change its outcome.
Having grown up watching the nightly news of the reports from Vietnam and being young and able bodied during those years. I could see both side of the issue though his reactions and actions did nothing more than to add fuel to the burning conflict of when and what should a citizen do if they truly feel that their government is doing something wrong in their name.
#
Mary_Caruso
Posted November 24, 2008 at 6:55 am | Permalink
Shame on you Reg. He has turned his life around and admitted he was wrong on many counts. Have you found forgiveness yet for your past mistakes?
—————
Ayers never asked for forgiveness and he also stated they didn’t do enough (bombing.)
I have nothing in my past that requires absolution of criminal acts like Ayers.
Shame on you Mary for believing in an unrepentant terrorist like Ayers.
Ayers is a thug, will continue to be a thug…
Hey Mary, when are you going to enshrine Stalin for his purges of millions of people?
Ayers and those who acted to help end the Vietnam war are heroes.
Thank you BlueJay. Regular,How many people were you called on to kill? How many of your friends did you see mutilated? And you want to continue the attack on our Viet Nam generation that was called on to fulfill the lies of our government leaders.
I am proud that I served as an Army Infantry Captain but am now ashamed of the lives I took. Those that opposed the war are the real heroes that caused the public to have another view of what we were doing. We are not terrorists but saviors of many lives.
Regular is wrong to call for our death.
Strange heros…the Weatherman Underground was responsible for bombing government buildings and banks, declaring “war” on the United States.
How does endangering innocent civilians–like people working in a bank–make someone a ‘hero’?
That’s interesting Lonny – in order to be called on to serve as Army Infantry Captain, you needed to have already been serving in the military at least six years. So, in the terms of the average soldier, you were already a ‘lifer’ willing to serve out your time in the military.
I served during Vietnam and have learned my lesson from this blog, not to discuss what I did during this time as it will be used against me.
I spent an additional 22 years in the military. I was a life and make no apologies for it, nor do I flip flop ideology depending on hairstyle, a song or drug of the day like some did.
As far as Ayers is concerned – Ayers and his buddies made ‘nail’ bombs to kill and injure people. Ayers violent past wasn’t just some hippie feel good organization, it was a violent and radical group bent on killing and injuring people, regardless of who it was.
BJ: “Ayers and those who acted to help end the Vietnam war are heroes.”
The only heroes from the Vietnam era are those who packed the gear to serve their country, not the rich-boy cowards that run around loose because a big shot lawyer got them off the hook on a technicality.
Ayers is a POS and anyone who admires him is part of the same specimen.
I’m not gonna worry to much about someone with a nic like yours “Gunhugn”. Kook.
Strongly worded letters would not have stopped the Vietnam war.
Have they stopped the Iraq occupation?
Then, as now, there was too much money to be made by those whose only connection to the fighting was supplying arms and supplies.
I won’t defend nail bombs or harming civilians but I do still harbor resentments about how we were treated and feel that anti-war protesters helped to improve our vision about our government then.
So many second lieutenants were being killed that it was easy to make rank. Drafted 11-30-65, commissioned 2-2-67, Captain 2-2-69 discharged 2-2-70.
Even thirty-five years after the war so many Vietnam-era veterans consider those of us who tried to end the way worse enemies than, y’know, the actual people they were fighting.
Jane Fonda, William Ayers, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, the thousands demonstrating in the streets to bring the troops home and end the meaningless slaughter in Vietnam were not your enemies. The short little folks in black pajamas — you know, the ones who knew what they were fighting for — were the enemy. And because they knew what they were fighting for who their enemy was, they whooped all the American helicopters and bombs and artillery and gun boats and aircraft carriers and grunts and napalm and Agent Orange and 54,000 soldiers were were misled, out-thought, and (tough as it is to admit it) out-fought by a tiny little 3rd World country.
“GunhugnGodNut” rails –
“The only heroes from the Vietnam era are those who packed the gear to serve their country, not the rich-boy cowards that run around loose because a big shot lawyer got them off the hook on a technicality.”
Yeah, that getting-off-the-hook-on-a-technicality is why I don’t Like Oliver North. That rich-boy coward running away from those “who packed up the gear to serve” in Vietnam is a reason I voted for John Kerry instead of George WMD Bush and Dick Cheney.
I’m evidently still too filled with resentment for the way I and others were treated to see things reasonably. I don’t know anything about Ayers and I did not support SDS. I remember Kent State and our own Herman Hill. I appreciate that now many are willing to question the actions and reasoning of our leaders instead of blindly supporting them under the banner of loyalty and patriotism.
Yeah, the anti-war protesters – such a brilliant group of people.
Instead of going to Washington D.C., the halls of Congress or the White House, where did these protesters go?
Why military posts of course. You know, the poor guys that were drafted or soon to be drafted in the military were the cause of evil.
By throwing garbage, cursing at them and holding up signs on those drafted to serve or chose to server they were getting their message out right?
Wrong. The War protesters were and always were about building a social clique of malcontents who could identify with each other. Their actions were never about the war, it was how cool they could be dressed in their half fatigue-half hippie style uniforms covered with peace symbols and roach clips hanging from the sleeves.
These protesters didn’t give a crap about the soldiers serving. They only thing they gave a crap about was their own ‘look at me’ egos and how many drugs they could pump into their bodies.
War protesters during the Vietnam error were the biggest bull shyt artists ever perpetrated on this planet. They were socio-pathic malcontents who had dropped out of society so they could indulge in sex, drugs and irresponsible behavior.
There was nothing noble about the war protesters’s cause. Their ’cause’ caused many ‘drug-induced’ rapes of American young girls and over doses of the uninitiated.
Sewing a peace symbol on your jacket doesn’t make one a war protester.
I would bet dollars to dimes that most protesters couldn’t even give you the name of one Congressman they needed to contact to issue their protest.
Standing out in a street waving a sign around, yeah…effective…not…
“LonnythePlumber” –
I won’t question your resentment of “how you were treated,” but there absolutely was not enough spittle on the planet for everyone who claims they were spat upon when they returned to The World to be true.
My personal experience with guys back from “The ‘Nam” was a lot of close friends who advised me and my friends on how to resist the Draft. These guys were against the war and leaders of the peace movement. They were are friends and mentors and patriots and wizened by futile exercise of American arrogance.
When I hear people like Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan and George Will and Dick Cheney and Bill Kristol talk about how America could have, should’ve won the Vietnam War, I think of my friends who’d actually been in-country and knew better; who came back and worked to stop the war.
A simple “Thank you for your service and welcome home soldier” brought a flood of tears from the person I said it to. He then said he had been back for over ten years and I was the first to say that to him. That not even his own parents had. They had not talked to him about his service nor asked how he was feeling. They did not want to talk about his time in war.
Spittle can take many forms Monkeyhawk and we did in deed spit in the face of many whom by choice or not served in Vietnam.
It took someone else’s tears for me to realize that.
What odd is that the right wingers supposedly hate and despise the government, and a few on this blog have talked about waging war on the government. Yet now their all line up defending the government against anyone who dares speak out against it.
Contrary to wingnut dogma, Ayers says that when he says “we didn’t do enough” he meant in terms of being an effective anti-war movement, if they had been, the war would have ended sooner. Check out the man’s words and see how different they are from the stuff repeated here daily:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97112600&ps=cprs
Every actual in-country Vietnam vet I ever met is still pissed off. Which is a shame, but even lifers like Regular (I knew you were Army, at least at one point, you remind me of my days in green, but I sort of figured you were more of a grumpy old noncom. My bad. I apologize.).
Want to start a bar fight? Go to a VFW or a Legion post and start praising Jane Fonda. I personally think she has atoned for what she did, but I know I am in the minority. So be it. I mean, I did my time in Germany, a pretty good duty post. I didn’t see friends killed and maimed in combat, but I have friends and fellow soldiers who died over there.
It was a long time ago, but memories and hatreds don’t dim. Just watch the history channel and you’ll see we’re still fighting WWII and the Deuce was 60+ years ago.
I guess it is part of the human condition.
Dennis
“Best way to reconcile with Ayers is with a tightly packed nail bomb.”
I was thinking more along the lines of dealing with McNamara and all the rest of those idiots that way.
“Regular
Posted November 24, 2008 at 8:36 am | Permalink
Yeah, the anti-war protesters – such a brilliant group of people.
Instead of going to Washington D.C., the halls of Congress or the White House, where did these protesters go?
Why military posts of course.”
The ones I knew – led by VVAW – targeted the Federal Building in Los Angeles as the closest symbol of the system that had sent them over there.
At least they didn’t blow it up like that darling of the Right Tim McVeigh.
MH –
The VC and NVN regulars did a lot of things, but at no point did they “outfight” the US. The war was lost politically, not militarily. By any military standard, the NVN army was soundly beaten in the field.
Today that’s beside the point, however.
I have no disrespect for those who opposed the war. I have no disregard for those who marched, protested, and committed acts of civil disobediance to oppose the war. I don’t even have any disrespect for Jane Fonda, who has at least had the decency to admit she was wrong.
What the left seems to forget in Ayers’ case is that he represents exactly what you claim to oppose. For Ayers’ position is that the end justifies the means.
Ayers crossed a line that in a democratic society, as long as the social and political institutions are in place and working, cannot be crossed. He committed acts of violence with the intent to harm. He targeted not military targets, but civilian ones. He did so to further a political cause. And no matter how he attempts to wash his hands of it, he killed in furtherance of his cause.
By any definition, that makes Ayers a terrorist.
The fact that many here believe the cause was a just one does not make his acts less criminal, and does not make them more acceptable. He avoided prison only on what can be termed a technicality. His steadfast refusal to acknowledge his wrongdoing only exacerbates the wrong.
There were and are many ways to express opposition to a policy and put pressure on decision makers. But the use of violence, NO MATTER how just the cause, is not acceptable as long as the regular institutions of the society are open and operating. To do so makes one a terrorist.
The only difference between Ayers and McVeigh was the size and destructiveness of their bombs. They are different not in type, but in degree. I do not today wish harm to the man. But I will not “forgive” him for what he has done. His philosophy, if taken to it’s logical extreme, is antithetical to democracy.
He is no hero. Far from it.
Regular posted November 24, 2008 at 6:32 am
Best way to reconcile with Ayers is with a tightly packed nail bomb.
—————-
Another fine example of “Kansas values”, from the stroke victim.
“He committed acts of violence with the intent to harm.”
If you listen to the audio link I provide above, this statement is categorically false, according to Ayers. He states he did not bomb with the intent to kill or harm anyone. Is he lying? I don’t know. He claims that the bomb that went off and killed his girlfriend was intended to kill and harm people. He thought his girlfriend was there to stop those individuals.
Property destruction is not cool, but it is not murder.
BTW, Ayers was a veteran. He served in the Merchant Marines, like Woody Guthrie.
I have some very mixed feelings about Vietnam and that era. I don’t begrudge anybody who dodged the draft, went to Canada, or protested the war.
I don’t care to hear now about how you respect my service to my country, like that’s somehow supposed to make up for the past. The time for respect is long past. We were treated like Lepers.
Mary,
Exactly where are you getting your information on Ayers, that he has admitted he was wrong and turned his life around?
The last interview I seen him in was no indication of that at all.
Is he lying?
Yes.
Any bomb built as those were – with nails as shrapnel – is built to harm persons.
He can attempt to rationalize all he likes. And frankly, whether he intended to harm is irrelevent anyway. Whether he intended to blow up “just” buildings or people makes no difference. The end does not justify the means.
I’ll stand by what I wrote; Ayers and McVeigh just the same; their crimes are different only in degree.
Steven,
It doesn’t matter if you intended to kill anyone or not. When you are planting bombs to cause serious damage you are doing something which is inherently dangerous.
It is still felony murder as well.
The average person “should” be smart enough to know that if you are going to do something as dangerous as blowing buildings up that someone could die.
GMC70,
Good posts. I have read several good books on the war in Vietnam. It is amazing that someone like MonkeyHawk could possibly think that our military was outfought.
“GMC70″ and “Nathaniel” –
One question:
Who won the war?
Monkeyhawk
Posted November 24, 2008 at 11:53 am | Permalink
“GMC70? and “Nathaniel” –
—————-
One question:
Who won the war?
=========================
Better question is who lost the war and why?
The US military could have won the war. The politicians mismanaged the war and the US citizens grew tired of the mismanagement and surrendered.
GMC, by your standards the founding fathers were terrorists. But on a closer note in Sedgwick county we have Cheryl Sullenger a convicted bomber who engaged in acts not much different than Ayers who now is a chairperson of a political PAC and number 2 in Operation Rescue. You have in the recent past G Gordon Liddy advocating and telling listeners the best way to kill LEO’s( which the other day in Pennsylvania a lady did). Oliver North gave weapons to the Iranians and is an indicted drug smuggler in several central American countries, it would seem to me that one both sides politically are filled with shady characters, and one persons terrorists is an another’s political idealist
Might also note that the British outfought and won most of the battles of the Revolutionary war
MonkeyHawk,
The war was ended with the Paris Peace accords.
Neither side won, and we left under the peace accords.
After our departure, North Vietnam continued it’s invasion of the South after they realized that the Democrats were not going to allow Nixon to enforce his threats against them for doing so and breaking the peace accords.
My time of service was 1974 top 1977. I did not serve in Nam, but knew many who did. Some were fine, some were not. There were lots of Nam vets that stayed in the Military, some serving in their original service, others transferring to such as the USN. Having spoken at length to a few WW1 vets, lots of WW2 vets, and many, many Viet Nam vets, I don’t really believe the incidents of PTSD were any higher. Nor do I believe that they got any less Care for PTSD. I do believe that their troubles were publicized to a higher degree than other vets. Partially because it PTSD was “new” and partially as a continued dissent with the government and it’s policies. SOme came back disagreeing with the war. Many, actually. Can there be closure? FOr some yes, for many, never. Each vet had his own mental state goin in, and experience in country. ANd many were treated with hostility upon their return. Regardless of your political position about Nam, about war in general, or anything else, I urge you to support these American Vets.
Sorry, my entry date to oct 13, 1973
Had another thought, in the Kansas State house their is a Mural of another domestic terrorist
Hard-line southerners think the Confederacy won “The War of Northern Aggression.”
By any measure, General George Washington lost nearly every battle he was engaged in. Gut guess who won the war.
A lot of straggling Japanese soldier kept defending atolls in the Pacific for the glory of their emperor. I can’t fault their courage or sense of duty. But they lost the war long earlier than they stopped fighting it.
America lost the Vietnam War. That means the Vietnamese won. Give ‘em their due.
The ‘Nam was the place of American hubris getting its comeuppance. Long after he knew it was a lost cause, LBJ was so arrogantly proud to last it out so he wouldn’t be “the first American president to lose a war.” It wasn’t about America’s best interests, it wasn’t about the Domino Theory, it wasn’t about opposing communism. It was about LBJ’s pride.
And almost half the names on The Wall got there before January 20, 1969. More than half of those numbers got there under the leadership of Richard Milhous Nixon, who was elected in 1968 with “a secret plan to end the war.” (This’ll shock you, probably, but Nixon tended to lie sometimes.)
Johnson and Nixon and Westmoreland Calley and LeMay and Kissinger and McNamara and all those may have been the ones responsible for losing the war, but they lost the war. And a lot of good men followed them to their doom.
Le Duc Tho, the North Vietnamese peace negotiator, told Henry Kissinger, “You may have won most the battles, dropped the most bombs, mined the most harbors, killed more people, but you never realized you couldn’t win the war.”
And the United States didn’t win the war. That means we lost the war. Deal with it.
People like Limbaugh and Shrub and Cheney and Will who trot out canards about “How we coulda, woulda, shoulda won the Vietnam War” came full circle in this last election when John McCain claimed, many times, “I know how to get bin Laden.” Funny how that “country first” candidate still hasn’t shared his insight with anyone who matters, isn’t it?
Reminds me of Nixon’s “secret plan to end the Vietnam War,” of 1968.
As much as you CONs want to portray me as anti-’Nam-Vet, or anti-military, or unpatriotic, or an America-hater, I’m feeling a lot more American than you poor schlubs must.
We are a nation of ideals we may never live up to. Sending boys whose daddies couldn’t get them out of war to fight for a lost cause was not America’s finest hour. That some of use noticed that at the time doesn’t make us lesser Americans or lesser human beings.
That some of you think Fonda and Ayers and RFK and “Monkeyhawk” are lesser human beings indicates a lot about you.
You CONs tend to embrace no political or theological or societal or scientific concept that more complicated than a bumper-sticker slogan.
If it hadn’t been for Napoleon, the Brits would have won the War of 1812 and we’d all be twits drinking tea at 4 pm and driving on the left side of the road. But the Brits lost the War of 1812. We won.
For all the if-onlys and what-ifs that might mitigate this particular bumper-sticker-ready political treatise, here’s one to work on, “GMC70″ and “Nathaniel”:
Vietnam. We lost. Next question?
MonkeyHawk,
I don’t believe that either GMC70 or I were arguing that we didn’t ultimately lose the war, in the sense that the objective of protecting the South failed.
Our argument was against your claim that we were:
“misled, out-thought, and (tough as it is to admit it) out-fought by a tiny little 3rd World country.”
“protecting the South” – with its million-man army it should have been able to stand on its own.
Technially MH the war of 1812 was a draw. The US’s major victory almost is only victory happened six weeks after the war ended.
Ben,
The number of men in an army doesn’t make up for training, tactics, blunders, terrain, equipment, and advantage/disadvantage.
How Bill Ayers thinks attacking 9 year olds helps with war effort?
Ayers group blew themselves building bomb to blow up Fort Dix Officer Clubs. The Vietnam war was the fault of low ranking officers how?
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DSfEcZlO-APE
Nope. No closure. Admissions of being wrong, nor declarations of being right coming from either side won’t make the wounds go away. It still hurts.
We trained the ARVN. They should have been on home terrain. We trained their officers.
The fact is the ARVN would not fight for their so-called government.
WAR is correct – no closure. I have too many friends who were screwed over by the ’system’ when they came home.
Ben,
The North Vietnamese were being reequiped with Soviet weapons and equipment after the Peace accords while the South Vietnamese had to beg for equipment from the Americas which we stopped giving them.
The North Vietnamese were already in South Vietnam in tactical posistions after the Peace accords ready to strike while the South Vietnamese were not.
When the ARVN made the tactical blunder of trying to move south to regroup the North Vietnamese were already moving on them causing one of the largest routs inmilitary history which led to the collapse of the ARVN and any real organized resistance to the North.
The fact is that you must ignore nearly all military history and what actually happened in Vietnam to come up with the complete garbage you continue to spew about the war there.
moneyhawk: The Brits DID win what THEY refer to as the war of 1812, the North American conflict was a side show. Remember Waterloo, Napoleon and all that stuff? Figuring the Brits were otherwise occupied, we invaded Canada at Ontario and Quebec (who were supposed to greet us a liberators!) only to be repulsed by the locals. After that, they invaded Michigan taking Detroit then campaigned in Ohio, but only holding parts of Michigan until the war ended, giving it back as part of the Treaty of Ghent of 1814. There were no decisive battles won by either side but we did not accomplish what we set out to do, ie.,annex Canada. PS: New England refused to take part in that excursiton into Canada and the local Militias said they were not supposed to fight in foreign lands anyway so many went home to tend their farms and families.
Nathan – I tend to place a bit more credibility on what I was taught by returning veterans during that period than on “the complete garbage you continue to spew about the war there.”
As we stood down, the NVA stood up, they moved in as we moved out with the ARVN close on our tail.
What equipment we didn’t dump in the ocean was quickly taken over by the NVA.
Some wounds never heal, especially after watching the blood congeal.
I had far too many friends go over there and come back either messed up or in bags. And, those who were still intact taught me a lot about the situation over there beginning in the late 60s.
I walked in the recent Veterans Day parade for the first time and heard at least five yell “Thank You”.
I did appreciate that and it did move me. To my surprise. I’m glad we treat veterans so much better now.
As for Vietnam it was what is called a “stalling war” there was no intent to win or lose. It was fought solely to keep the other side from winning. It was meant to worn down the other side till they quit fighting because of lost of man power, money and equipment. Such warfare is dishonorable and belittles those who fight and die in them. 58,000 was the price of that war and the soul of this nation. All to keep the other side from winning when there was no intent of us winning either.
Actually the cost was well over a million dead.
“TomPaine
Posted November 24, 2008 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
Had another thought, in the Kansas State house their is a Mural of another domestic terrorist”
Labels of “terrorist” are given by history books through the eyes of the victor.
Without waiting for history books, current labels of terrorist are applied based on whether the fighter is with us or against us, not whether terrorist tactics are actually used.
“Terrorist” has come to mean nothing, really. It is a word that has been taken up as part of the marketing efforts of the war machine.
Tom –
I note that Cheryl Sullinger, assuming your facts are correct (and I have no reason to doubt them) was a convicted bomber. Nor do I condone her actions, as some on the left do with Ayers. Wanna call her a terrorist? Fine with me.
Want to demonize Ollie North? Fine. I won’t defend him.
I’d note the Founders did not target non-combatants; they targeted the British. Further, there was no social or legal structure “in place” to deal with the Founder’s concerns, as those other means for resolution of issues had broken down despite several pleas by the colonists for compromise or settlement. It was the classic case of taking up arms because other alternatives had case closed. I’d also note that on the day of the “shot heard ’round the world,” the citizens of Lexington and Concord were defending their communities from British forces intent on seizing the local militia’s arms stores; a local militia’s stores protected under English common law and American tradition, and now in large part the basis of the 2nd Amendment.
No, that comparison won’t work.
A terrorist is a terrorist. If you target non-combatants to seek a political goal, you’re a terrorist. That’s what Ayers did. And Ayers did so in a nation that has a fully functioning social/legal/political structure designed to resolve just those differences.
That’s exactly what McVeigh did. They are one and the same. This “one persons terrorists is an another’s political idealist” is just a rationalization.
Ayers and McVeigh are what they are: terrorists. All the rationalization, all the “but the cause was just” BS doesn’t change one iota. The years may have dulled the pain, but it hasn’t change one iota what he did.
Written by men who were there:
History of the U.S. War in Vietnam
By Barry Romo, Pete Zastrow & Joe Miller
As GIs in Vietnam we saw the often-stark realities of Vietnam and could compare them to the “truth” the American people were being told. We saw the corrupt Saigon generals making money hand over fist while their armies would not fight. We saw the hate in the eyes of the local villagers who never welcomed us as “liberators” bringing us bouquets of flowers as we had seen in World War II movies. The only Vietnamese who seemed to want us there wanted greenbacks in return for drugs, booze or women, or all three. We also saw the enemy fight and had to admire both his bravery and tenacity in taking on U.S. tanks, planes and helicopters with grenades and rifles. We supposedly valued human life while our enemy did not. Yet we paid the owners of the Michelin plantations $600 for each rubber tree we damaged, while the family of a slain Vietnamese child got no more than $120 in payment for a life.
We took and defended “strategic” hills, winning what the press called “victories.” While the enemy body count (noted for the thin line between military and civilian dead) enhanced ranking officers’ careers, it was the casualties among our friends that were felt first by us. And then we’d give up the hill and have to fight for it again later on. The war was not something to be won or lost by the grunt, but 365 days to be survived.
The U.S. tried everything to win. We dropped more than three times the total tonnage of bombs dropped by both sides in World War II. We conducted “Operation Phoenix” during which the CIA and the Saigon government killed up to 40,000 suspected members of the Viet Cong. We defoliated 10% of the land, much of it permanently. We bombed, bribed, shot, killed and burned for more than 10 years at a cost of $170 billion (and a future cost which is continuing to rise). Despite all this, we still lost.
http://www.vvaw.org/about/warhistory.php
“GMC70
Posted November 24, 2008 at 4:24 pm | Permalink
A terrorist is a terrorist. If you target non-combatants to seek a political goal, you’re a terrorist.”
What about if a government does those things? If a sovereign government committs clearly terrorist acts should they be held to the same standard of responsibility as an insurgent, freedom fighter, or rogue nutcase would be?
Who is ultimately responsible when a government committs terrorist acts and who should be punished? The soldier pulling the trigger, or someone up his chain of command? Does the ‘buck’ stop at the desk of the Commander in Chief?
Moneyhawk: Further to my 1812 post, it was 40,000 sq. km the Canadians/Brits held at the end of the war around the Great Lakes and Maine, being returned in 1814. The Brits promised to return the slaves who fled to them but never did, instead much later, payed the US a “fee” for their freedom. The US/Brits promised to respect the rights/terrtory of Indians but that was weekly worded and never adhered to by us. The Brits kept their promise to the Indians meaning Canada never had any Indian wars as they expanded westward across the plains.
“GMC70″ declares –
“A terrorist is a terrorist. If you target non-combatants to seek a political goal, you’re a terrorist.”
One word: Hiroshima.
C’mon now.
The whole concept of “war” has gotten all out of hand. That’s the 20th Century legacy everyone in the world has to live with.
Humanity went for a long time carrying on perfectly decent wars in pastures out on the edge of town. Waterloo, Gettysburg, the Battle of the Marne… they showed up like a traveling circus and didn’t bother the natives.
And maybe Hitler changed the rules or we just embraced the whole scorched-earth strategy just a bit too eagerly with firebombs dropped on Tokyo or Dresden.
And hell. Maybe that’s what it took to put the Nazis and Japs in their place. I dunno.
But The ‘Nam wasn’t one of those situations in American history where we get out clean.
LBJ didn’t want “…to be the first president who lost a war.” Neither did Nixon. So a lot of good young men died in Vietnam for a couple of guys’ egos.
Until we as Americans come to grips with that reality and stop positing 40-year-old would, shoulda, coulda arguments to somehow prop up the disaster Vietnam was for America, we’re never gonna get over it.
I’m sorry, but the forty-five hundred people who traveled from the United States of America and went to Iraq to boost George WMD Bush’s polling results did, in fact, die in vain.
They deserved better from this nation.
We’re better people than that.
Or say we are.
I see there’s no female voice in the fray, so as someone who lived through the period in her teens and early twenties, I’ll tell you how it was for me, here at home.
There were a lot of my class and schoolmates who served in Nam. Some didn’t come home. Some came home physically messed up, some mentally messed up. None of them have forgotten it, but some never talk about it, while others still do.
I wrote letters, I sent packages, I supported my “guys” and the troops. And I was against the war. It was a travesty, a grotesque horror, and nothing will change my mind about that. That’s how I know one can support the troops but not the war.
Pre-d – amen to that.
Thank you Predestined. Tears are for people like you. Thanks.
Pre-destined and others,
Not many GI’s were for the war either. Those that were drafted resisted more than others, but for the most part, there were very few that actually supported the Vietnam conflict.
What we did is supported our country, performed our duty as honorable sons and daughters. It wasn’t blind obedience, it was our turn at the guard post. It was our time to perform picket duty when it was lonely an no one else would do it.
Ask any soldier, sailor, marine, airman who has been around the sound of combat, that unearthy zone of silence right after an explosion. You don’t know if you’re alive, dead, have parts missing and you’re not real sure where you really at or what time of day it is.
Often asked by the non-combatant civilian, what’s the difference as civilians experience load noises that traumatize as well.
The difference is the consistency, how expectantly death occurs or how it could never happen to Murry, not Murray – he had too much going for him.
The difference is there is no time out clock, no spot you can drive to, to get away. There are no curtains to hide behind or beds to crawl under. Daily reminders when death and medical reports are read aloud. Re-assignments made not because people transferred out, but because they died or were injured or must plain missing.
Heat, oppressive heat – heat that would fry your thoughts into lumps of total nonsense. Constant sweat, water that tasted like mosquito repellent and canvas tent preservative 24/7. Fungus, dry rot, bug bites and all sorts of itchy, oozing pustles of pus surprises on a daily basis.
Scorched areas on the ground that used to be people or vehicles. Expletives flying back and forth not because of disgust, but a distraction to deal with the every day horror of a situation that wasn’t real.
That smell, all combat soldiers got a smell… you know something that triggers a memory… Ever so often you smell it, you hear the loud buzz, time stands still, you are in another zone…those who know the smell know what I’m talking about. It’s a little different for everyone…
It’s hard to explain combat, you actually live it more than any experience of your life. It’s like that moment right before a car wreck where everything is in slow motion, but in combat it lasts much much longer and you live it in several dimensions of changing times. Ears ringing, can’t think, fear, tears, nausea, emptiness…
Hey BJ & Monkey,
You guys must be Charlie or VC. What did you do stow away on a helicopter back to the States? Are you coming here to assist Comrade Ayers in making nail bombs?
You should go back to your holes in jungles of The Peoples Republic of Vietnam and have your Socialism. The American forces never lost the battles or the war in Vietnam. The politicians lost the war at home to traitors like Ayers. Traitors are not hero’s but cowards.
We are Americans who actively opposed an unwise, unjust and un-winnable war in Vietnam.
We were right and the war-mongers in the 70s were wrong. Plain and simple.
And the knuckle-draggers are still screaming, “Go back to Russia!”
HA! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre
Bite me.
“donndublin
Posted November 24, 2008 at 7:56 pm ”
donndublin you are an effin’ idiot
“Hey BJ & Monkey,
You guys must be Charlie or VC. What did you do stow away on a helicopter back to the States? ”
Uh, no.
I was under 10 when the Vietnam war ended.
Without the “work”, extreme it may have been by people like Bill Ayers? Well heck, I could have grown up and got drafted to go to that sorry mess.
Morons like dondublin are why we got stuck in that quamirein the first place. I’d LOVE to turn him over to some VietNam vets I know – in a dark alley. They whold know how to deal with him.
There you libs go again taking hypocrisy to a new high.
“I’d LOVE to turn him over to some Vietnam vets I know – in a dark alley. They whold know how to deal with him.”
Bth,
Why do you need a mob to take me on? I know several Vietnam vets too. I know probably more than you do and some who never came back. Though they were not happy with the way it was fought, they never would have undermined the effort like Ayers did. I wouldn’t need them to meet you in a dark alley any time. You peacenik libs cry for peace but are ready to jack someone up when they don’t agree with you.
I won’t even respond to Brian because I won’t stoop that low. If it weren’t for copy and paste he would barely be able to write more than one sentence.
Ayers is the same as those who spit on the returning vets and you want to make him a demagogue. Ayers is a hard core communist/anarchist and always have been. His motive then was to overthrow the government and is now making the effort through Obama. He could care less about the Vets and is only on a power trip he got while on acid. When are you commies going to learn that your socialist system does not work? Russia and Eastern Europe proved that but you seem to think that you can do it better. Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
“donndublin” –
Call me a freakin’ bleeding-heart liberal, but I really feel sorry for you if your posts actually represent what you think.
If you can call that thinking.
“donndublin
Posted November 25, 2008 at 4:43 pm | Permalink
…I won’t even respond to Brian because I won’t stoop that low. If it weren’t for copy and paste he would barely be able to write more than one sentence…. ”
Not hardly pal, not hardly.
Here is more about the liberal icon Bill Ayers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWMIwziGrAQ
“During 1969 – 1970 the Weathermen, led by William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn had a mole among them. In 1982, FBI informant Larry Grathwohl was interviewed for a documentary in which he detailed meetings in which 25 leaders within Weather Underground plotted the overthrow of the American government and the subsequent need to eliminate 25 million people.”
This is nothing new. The same thing happen when Linen and Stalin took power as well as Pol Pot. Of course the first ones to go were those who were involved in the overthrow. That would probably be people like Bluejay, Monkeyhawk, DavidB, bth, and brian_nuevo. When these fools are out of the way, while “clinging to our guns”, we will rise up, overthrow the socialists and restore our freedom.
Monkey, I don’t need nor want your sympathy. Some day you will need it yourself when you see the truth as I did. During the late sixties, seventies and eighties I was a “freakin’ bleeding-heart liberal” much more so than you could handle. I would have made you look like a boy scout. I also bought the poison that Ayers and his kind spewed. I saw firsthand how the elite privileged purveyors of peace and equality would use any means to accomplish their goals to atone for their own guilt. The Old money trust fund dependents having nothing better to do but immortalize themselves as society’s saviors. They use people like you as toilet paper.
“Not hardly pal, not hardly”
I can’t believe you just stepped right in that and proved my point. This is getting fun.LMAO
“Ayers is the same as those who spit on the returning vets.”
Just HOW do you make that jump?
And you strike me as pretty jumpy.
Since you were under 7 (10-3) when Billy was unafraid to show his face in public I’m sure it would be a jump for you but for me it was a mere step. It doesn’t take a leap of faith to know the truth, just open your eyes and your mind and look for yourself.
“Linen”?
Heh. No one can save you from the coming white sale there fella.
“donndublin
Posted November 25, 2008 at 6:30 pm | Permalink
“Not hardly pal, not hardly”
I can’t believe you just stepped right in that and proved my point. This is getting fun.LMAO”
Did I now? What point was that donny boy? Exactly what point did I prove?
“donndublin
Posted November 25, 2008 at 5:08 pm | Permalink
…When these fools are out of the way, while “clinging to our guns”, we will rise up, overthrow the socialists and restore our freedom.”
Who exactly are the socialists you are plotting to overthrow?
BTW, can you give any examples of when people in a socialist country have risen up and overthrown their socialist government so they could restore their freedom?
Or give an example of where an established government was overthrown without help from outside countries and the new government or ruling party has been successful?
Presumably someone without such a obvious right-wing orientation as this Larry Grathwohl fellow can corroborate his charges.
Funny how these statements never found their way into the presidential campaign, but are now all over the right-wing media.
P.S. I do not and probably would not have condoned the Weatherman’s tactics (I am roughly Obama’s age), but I have yet to see evidence that anything but property was targeted.
While they claim they only destroyed property and spared people,they injured their victims;as a result,a judge was paralyzed from the neck down and a policeman was killed. The Weathermen thought their actions were justifiable because of the Vietnam War. The Weather Underground seriously thought bombing the Pentagon would somehow lead to peace.
http://www.amazon.com/review/RANZI0D5XO8O1
This review of a documentary would indicate that there were victims. I believe the son of the judge has done interviews recently. He was nine at the time.
Brian, “Not hardly pal, not hardly.” is “not hardly” a complete sentence. Most of your posts are copy and paste. Congratulations, I see you have graduated to a complete paragraph.
Obama and his pals Ayers, Wright, Pelosi and Frank are biting at the bit to implement their socialist’s ideals of redistribution and draconian authoritarian policies.
You should look up the word “euphemism” and if you want an example, try 1989 and the fall of the Berlin wall. You were alive back then weren’t you?
Rage,
Your name suits you. Stay away from the leftist Kool-aide, take off your blinders and chill out. The left wing media alter you worship at, goes to extreme lengths to conceal these facts. I’ve been banned from several left wing blog sites for trying to reveal these stories but instead of rebuttal, they just pretend they don’t exist.
The interview was in 1982 well before the presidential election. He didn’t just make this up years later when Ayers emerged from his cave. FBI informants going undercover usually work alone and the FBI is not disputing it. If all you have is an “obvious right-wing orientation” charge, Mr. Grathwohl’s assertions seem credible
OKO,
Thanks for your support. I doubt the extreme leftists on this site will open their eyes or uncover their ears long enough to visit that site but some inquiring naive lurker might.
Gee donnnnnnnnnn….
Would you like a little cheese to go with that whiiiiiine?
Should we call the waaaaaambulance?
Art imitates life –
http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/11/25/tomo/
Or is this vice versa?
I’ll accept your capitulation and move on because this is getting boring now.
Nice try
lol, sure
I hope that helps you look in the mirror
Hey Brian, time to go to school son. Feed your hungry mind with this.
http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/14039/