If health care is a responsibility, not a right, as John McCain said in the second debate, “why do we pay for the treatment of anyone who shows up at an emergency room door?” asked columnist John Young. “If it’s a responsibility, why call an ambulance when a beggar passes out, hits his head on a curb and goes into convulsions? We know he hasn’t a dime. If health care is his responsibility, isn’t it ours to walk away? Why doesn’t this happen? Because health care is a right. Only the politics of self-interest and self-delusion hold otherwise. The delusion is that we think we’re saving money within today’s system. In fact, we pay dearly for the health care of the uninsured, just not in ways that would spare those in need much suffering and would deliver us all from higher costs.”
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186 Comments
Of course Republicans don’t think health care is a right, they are the pro-life party. The only time it’s a right is when you are a fetus, after that, it’s okay if you die because God doesn’t like you since you weren’t born to a family who could afford health care.
Here’s the McCain/Palin health care plan:
http://www.livevideo.com/video/06D942F7C2D443BC98B202FCE931CBE9/faith-healing-gone-wrong.aspx
We need to stop with the semantics of health care. The fact is our health care system in America doesn’t work properly for a majority of Americans.
Symptoms of the problem: Employees tend to hang onto jobs long after they are effective in order not to give up their health insurance benefits.
Patient office visits have deteriorated to a search by doctors for the most profitable treatments they can give rather than solving minor health needs.
Health insurance is an expensive hall of mirrors to pay for minimal services with the insured paying the most.
Part D prescription drug program is a sham full of loop holes and bureacratic paperwork.
Of course it isn’t a “right” – is it in the Bill of Rights? NO
But gun ownership is in the Bill of Rights.
Is air or water a right?
Only deluded think health care isn’t a right
Well then, the attorneys will start lining up when they find all those violators of our Constitutional rights on health care.
- Mosquitoes, and all stinging insects
- Venomous arthropods
- Bolts of lightning
- Gravity, inertia, momentum (equal violators of Health care rights causing injury)
- Sunlight
- Stupid acts by stupid people
I’m pretty sure BrownLib is confusing government benefit freebies with “rights.”
In most civilized societies, universal health care, fully PAID FOR by a single payer system is the norm, as is firefighting and police protection. Societies who can handle this, seem also to have a longer lifespan, be more fiscally prudent, have a much lower crime rate and better education resuts. Americans call them socialists countries which is damnation enough to forbid new thoughts entering our collective investigation of the subject. Quality, timely care based soley on need and the not the ability to pay is an aim I fear the US will never, ever embrace. Sad…..
No universal health care we can’t afford it. Hawaii has pulled their universal health care applying to the children. The cost went out of sight.
Universal health care, or we making health care a right for the universe?
I’ll settle for American health care rights.
We need to follow the other civilized countries so we’ll no longer be 29th in the world in infant mortality. How’a about that right to lifers?
Leading causes of deaths for infants in the U.S.
Let’s see:
Health Care would fix this how?
1 Congenital Anomalies 5623 20.06%
2 Short Gestation 4637 16.54%
3 SIDS 2295 8.19%
4 Maternal Pregnancy Comp. 1708 6.09%
5 Placenta Cord Membranes 1028 3.67%
6 Unintentional Injury 946 3.37%
* Suffocation 636 2.27%
* MV Traffic 120 0.43%
* Drowning 63 0.22%
* Fire/burn 40 0.14%
* Poisoning 26 0.09%
* Natural/ Environment 18 0.06%
* Fall 16 0.06%
7 Respiratory Distress 943 3.36%
8 Bacterial Sepsis 749 2.67%
9 Circulatory System Disease 667 2.38%
10 Intrauterine Hypoxia 583 2.08%
Study: Half of American Doctors Give Patients Placebos Without Telling Them
Thursday, October 23, 2008
About half of American doctors in a new study regularly give their patients placebo pills without telling them.
That contradicts advice from the American Medical Association, which recommends doctors only use treatments to which patients have given their informed consent.
“It seems like doctors are doing things they shouldn’t be doing,” said Irving Kirsch, a professor of psychology at the University of Hull, who has studied the use of placebos. Kirsch was not linked to the research, published Friday in the British Medical Journal.
“Doctors may be under a lot of pressure to help their patients, but this is not an acceptable shortcut,” he said.
Placebos were defined in the study as treatments whose benefits derived from patients’ beliefs they would work, not from the actual drug itself. They included painkillers, vitamins, antibiotics, sedatives and sugar pills.
Studies have shown that patients given a fake treatment can often improve, despite the pill having no known impact on their condition.
Researchers at the U.S. National Institutes of Health sent surveys to a random sample of internists and rheumatologists across the country. They received 679 responses, of which 62 percent believed that using placebo treatment was ethically acceptable.
cont’d at:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,443835,00.html
I got NO PROBLEM with universal healthcare as long as my taxes are not raised to pay for it. If it is estimated to cost 1 trillion, then we know that it will really cost 1.5 trillion. As long as guvment spending is reduced by that 1.5 trillion, then fine, bring it on.
However, don’t FORCE me to give up my employer provided healthcare because I want to be able to see my doctor whenever and for whatever I desire. Don’t make me stand in line behind someone on the guvment plan, who is willing to wait 6-8 weeks to see the doctor or the guvment who decides WHAT is covered.
Of course health care is a right as it should be in any nation that refers to itself as the best in the world.
As it should be to any one that like to refer to themselves as human beings least we are no better then the common slug. The problems with health care are fixable and affordable once it is seen as a right and not something that only those that can afford it should not worry about.
Would you rather live in a country where if you can not afford to eat you starve?
A country where if you can not afford to get out of the cold, snow and ice you freeze to death?
There has been a lot of talk lately of Socialism, the above is the solution in a Socialist country.
The importance to the state is the determining factor to as to whether someone is fed sheltered and cared for in a medical sense.
“Americans call them socialists countries which is damnation enough to forbid new thoughts entering our collective investigation of the subject.” — sursum
——
That sums it up well!
One little word that has taken on such significance it stifles progress in many fields where improvement could be realized.
We will improve the health care industry but those improvements will be slower than they should be. We must achieve a change of mind / attitude in order to make progress. Someday I predict today’s naysayers will be the ones taking credit for a much improved system.
“I believe this is what you are looking for (uninsured in the U.S.)
http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf
2006 census, I believe Table 6 is what you are
interested in.
Joseph Antos of the American Enterprise Institute
did the analysis on the above census.
The main website is http://www.aei.org/
The numbers you are looking for described by Antos
are below
uninsured who are NOT U.S. CITIZENS IS 45% of the
47 million.
Broken down by age, 18 – 24 years old – 29.3% of
the 47 million.
25 – 35 years old – 26.9% of the 47 million.
Broken down by salary, $75,000 or more per year –
8.5% of the 47 million.
Those are not U.S. Citizens, but not necessarily illegal aliens.
Although if there was some more investigation, one could find that the majority of the above statistic was indeed illegal aliens.
I’ll have to search for more information on that specific statistic.
Regardless, we shouldn’t be paying for free medical care for non-citizens and the non-citizen
statistic shouldn’t have been used by Michael Moore in his “Health Scare” movie as part of the 45 million total.” Another blogger
Remember, of over 301,000,000 Americans the actual number of American citizens without insurance – because none is available is less than 20 million.
We are talking about maybe, MAYBE six percent of the US population without health insurance.
And the six percent CAN receive treatment.
Clear example of socialists making a problem where none exists.
You don’t change the world for such a tiny percent without healthcare. You find a program to care for those TRULY in need.
Now, for the rest of you hoping for another FREE ENTITLEMENT (thread author deems a constitutional right), sorry: the money tree is empty.
Yes, you WILL continue to pay a high cost for your health insurance and even HIGHER deductibles in the future. Healthcare for many will become our biggest financial burden. More than SUV payment, too big a house payment, utilities, and food.
But then, how much are you willing to pay for your life? Life has a higher value than anything else.
So expect to pay more – no matter what any magician (I mean politician) tells you.
McWorse says, in one breath, that he won’t raise taxes; in the next he says he wants to tax my retirement benefits, including health insurance. Presumably he would use the revenue from his tax increases (that he says he opposes) to pay for his infinite and misbegotten occupation of Iraq. I think he’s a liar.
“Health Care would fix this how?”
1 Congenital Anomalies 5623 20.06%
Here’s your answer, Regular:
From the International JOurnal of Medical Sciences
Birth Defects Are Preventable
Andrew E. Czeizel
Foundation for the Community Control of Hereditary Diseases, Budapest, Hunga
Prevention approaches are often classified into three levels:
1. Primary prevention: avoiding the cause(s) of congenital abnormalities, e.g. rubella vaccination or periconceptional folic acid/multivitamin supplementation. Some topics will be discussed in this issue. In Hungary 26.6 % of congenital abnormalities can be primarily prevented mainly due to periconceptional folic acid/multivitamin supplementation.
2. Secondary prevention: early detection followed by effective early treatment, e.g. neonatal orthopedic screening is very effective for the early detection and treatment of deformities such as congenital dislocation of the hip based on Ortolani click and treated with different conservative methods (e.g. Pavlik pillow). In addition, patent ductus arteriosus and undescended testis can be corrected by drugs immediately after birth. In Hungary 25.2% of congenital abnormalities were prevented by these methods. Previously the selective abortion, i.e. termination of pregnancy after the prenatal diagnosis of severe fetal defects was also named as secondary prevention. Recently the WHO and other international bodies have excluded this approach from the term “prevention”. In Hungary about 20% of major congenital abnormalities (8.7% in the total group) were terminated after the prenatal diagnosis of defects.
3. Tertiary prevention: complete recovery of congenital abnormalities by early surgical intervention without residual defects or minimal after effects. In Hungary early surgical intervention has resulted in a complete recovery in some types of congenital cardiovascular malformations (e.g. ventricular and atrial septal defects, rest of patent ductus arteriosus, etc), congenital pyloric stenosis, undescended testis, etc. Tertiary prevention helped us to achieve a complete recovery in 33.5% of cases with congenital abnormalities.
http://www.medsci.org/v02p0091.htm
Shall we move on to #2 on your list?
Predestined
Posted October 25, 2008 at 10:20 am | Permalink
“Health Care would fix this how?”
1 Congenital Anomalies 5623 20.06%
Here’s your answer, Regular
———————————
Most all of those are already provided services through public health services.
The continuing problems with birth defects are negligent mothers.
You know, we have a few other rights that need to be addressed before government takes over the health care industry.
Let’s start with free speech. The government ought to provide us all with free speech the same way they propose to provide health care. How come Phillip Brownlee get’s the editorial page of the Wichita Eagle and I’m left with this free BLOG?
How about the right to bear arms? Why should I have to buy my guns and ammo? We’re talking a basic freedom here and I’m liable to get out gunned by some illiterate dope dealer just because the damn government won’t provide everyone with the fire power that is their constitutional right.
Now the third and fourth amendments are a little more subtle, so bear with me. The right to not have soldiers quartered in my home and the right to not have any unreasonable searches of my home. The key here is ‘home’. It is implied by these amedments that I have a home! Why do some people in this country have to pay a large percentage of their income just for a home? Why do others work all their life and never have a home? Only the deluded would think that the government shouldn’t be providing universal homes for all of us. It’ll be a little rough getting the wrinkles worked out but Fannie and Freddie seem to have it figured out finally. Buy a few politicians with government money and get a 700 billion dollar bail out now and then.
Health care is a little tricky. We’ll have to eliminate capitalism. No health care for profit, it will only lead to abuse. We’ll have to ration services, we can’t just let people decide to get any service they want any time they want it. Smokers and drunks should have head of the line privileges, after all, all the ’sin taxes’ they’ve paid over the years should geve them some advantage. People that exercise, eat right and take care of themselves are generally healty enough to wait a little longer for routine services.
Yep, I can hardly wait until government provided health care. Going to school, training to be a registered nurse will bring you all the rewards and prestige of a clerk at the DMV. Being a brain surgeon will be as important as your mailman. Dedicating your life to saving people will be as rewarding as being a hairdresser.
hehehehe
I wonder if its just the biggest aholes for the cons who post on the message boards- because I’ve now run into SO many republicans who believe in national healthcare. Perhaps they don’t read what their side preaches, I dunno.
“Most all of those are already provided services through public health services.”
But…but…that’s welfare!
“The continuing problems with birth defects are negligent mothers.”
The continuing problems with birth defects are negligent mothers, thanks to the stigma (perpetrated by people like you) attached to using public health services and the fact that “we” don’t want to fund it.
October 3, 2007 · President Bush on Wednesday vetoed a bipartisan bill that would have dramatically expanded children’s health insurance, after saying the legislation was too costly and had strayed from its original intent.
The State Children’s Health Insurance Program, or SCHIP, is a joint state-federal effort that subsidizes health coverage for 6.6 million people, mostly children, from families that earn too much to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to afford their own private coverage.
generaston,
You’re already paying for other people’s healthcare.
#
Predestined
Posted October 25, 2008 at 10:49 am | Permalink
“Most all of those are already provided services through public health services.”
But…but…that’s welfare!
“The continuing problems with birth defects are negligent mothers.”
The continuing problems with birth defects are negligent mothers, thanks to the stigma (perpetrated by people like you) attached to using public health services and the fact that “we” don’t want to fund it.
October 3, 2007 · President Bush on Wednesday vetoed a bipartisan bill that would have dramatically expanded children’s health insurance, after saying the legislation was too costly and had strayed from its original intent.
The State Children’s Health Insurance Program, or SCHIP, is a joint state-federal effort that subsidizes health coverage for 6.6 million people, mostly children, from families that earn too much to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to afford their own private coverage.
=========================
Exactly…
Health care for children is available for all children in the U.S. Whether or not the parents get it for their children is another matter.
As you implied, Public health services (county, state and federal), SCHIPS, medicaid, private charities – all provide health care children for the most part free of charge.
Only a negligent mother or father would keep their children obtaining preventive medicine and vaccinations.
Looks like most of the problem is caused by preemies, caused by lack of prenatal care.
What’s going on? Racial and ethnic disparities clearly play a role. In 2005, for every 1,000 live births, the infant mortality rate was:
13.63 among non-Hispanic black Americans
5.76 among non-Hispanic white Americans
Premature birth is a factor in more than two-thirds of infant deaths. From 2000 to 2005, the U.S. preterm birth rate went up from 11.6% to 12.7%.
MacDorman and Mathews report the data in the CDC’s October 2008 National Center for Health Statistics data brief, “Recent Trends in Infant Mortality in the United States.”
Phantom
Posted October 25, 2008 at 10:59 am | Permalink
Looks like most of the problem is caused by preemies, caused by lack of prenatal care.
===================================
In my opinion, it’s not lack of prenatal care, there are lots of free services available.
It’s irresponsible parents who ignore established health care practices and don’t seek medical assistance until the baby is about to be delivered.
Help for pregnant mothers is astounding in the U.S. There are thousands of sources for free pre-natal care.
HLP: You are a wise, politically astute guy from the conservative side of things. I and most WE Bloggers probably know that. I consider myself to be a moderate-to-left Republican but conservative on economic issues, who supports and votes for candidates and issues rather than for a specific “political side.” I do like to read arguments from both sides to help me form my position on issues.
However, in your comments a few minutes ago at 10:35 AM, I had trouble reading them because they were basically “tongue in cheek,” and convaluted. It was difficult to determine your real positions without reading several times.
Also because of lack of time, I rarely read “cut and paste” entries or go to web sites. I’ve got my own web sites to read.
Of course, we can all be guilty of foggy and lengthy writing at times.
But to save time of all, I suggest we WE Bloggers should target our writing directly to the issue to make it concise and more quickly understandable.
Just my thoughts.
JWink,
That was a most diplomatic response. As a grow older I grow less tolerant of stupidity. I was inclined to say something much less diplomatic but will defer to your approach. ;-)
The biggest misCONception is treating health care as a market-driven enterprise.
As if I get universal single-payer health coverage so all of a sudden I’m gonna show up at the hospital and get my gall bladder removed! Because it’s free!
There’s nothing wrong with my knee but replace it anyway; it’s free!
Emergency rooms are, because of the realities of trauma care, the most expensive way to provide health care. And preventative care would, y’know, prevent a huge percentage of “emergencies.”
You think your employer “provides” health coverage? Nope. It’s part of the cost of employing you. Which means, of course, you are already paying for it.
And if you have no pre-existing conditions and can actually purchase for-profit health insurance, universal coverage might result in a slight increase in taxes, but you would no longer be paying monthly premiums (of which, 30% goes to executive perks and legions of people employed only to deny you coverage). Medicare’s administrative cost averages 3%.
Thank you Ms. lindainks55! J.W.
Only a negligent mother or father would keep their children obtaining preventive medicine and vaccinations.
Small towns don’t offer public health services. People living in rural areas, miles from a town or city, may not have a way to get to public health services. Transportation is not always available.
How well are public health services advertised?
I’ve listened to many people here whine and moan about SCHIPS and how much is coming out of their pockets for it. It’s the old “I’ve got mine, who gives a crap about everybody else” and “I don’t want my money paying for somebody else” b.s.
And you call yourselves Christians?
Jesus not only wept, he continues to weep.
“You think your employer “provides” health coverage? Nope. It’s part of the cost of employing you. Which means, of course, you are already paying for it.”
I wonder MonkeyHawk, who would not understand that?
Maybe the same people who believe whatever comes from the gubermint comes for free?
“Only a negligent mother or father would keep their children obtaining preventive medicine and vaccinations.”
—
The child is born so no longer needs to be protected. /sarcasm
#
lindainks55
Posted October 25, 2008 at 11:16 am | Permalink
JWink,
That was a most diplomatic response. As a grow older I grow less tolerant of stupidity. I was inclined to say something much less diplomatic but will defer to your approach. ;-)
==================================================
Not me: Hank, how about animal rights? Every animal in this country should have a say on whether or not they want to be neutered or spayed. How about the right to obedience schools? How about the right NOT to go to obedience school? And ducks . . .what about ducks? How would you like your wings clipped and kept in someones backyard, knowing some evil human is going to steal your eggs, then make Peking duck out of you after you’ve served your masters for years?
No, I tell you, if it’s rights for one, it’s rights for all, including Sarah Palin, who can see Russia from her back yard. So elect Sarah Palin, and get a free moose pie recipe (moose not included).
#
lindainks55
Posted October 25, 2008 at 11:32 am | Permalink
The child is born so no longer needs to be protected. /sarcasm
=======================================================
Ya know, Linda, that is exactly what Republicans think. Do everything to protect the child in the womb. Once out: hey, a**h**e, you’re on your own.
I know, JMW. I don’t understand how they look themselves in the mirror — good at seeing whatever they choose and ignoring reality. Not a skill I admire or want to emulate.
#
Predestined
Posted October 25, 2008 at 11:26 am | Permalink
Only a negligent mother or father would keep their children obtaining preventive medicine and vaccinations.
Small towns don’t offer public health services. People living in rural areas, miles from a town or city, may not have a way to get to public health services. Transportation is not always available.
How well are public health services advertised?
I’ve listened to many people here whine and moan about SCHIPS and how much is coming out of their pockets for it. It’s the old “I’ve got mine, who gives a crap about everybody else” and “I don’t want my money paying for somebody else” b.s.
And you call yourselves Christians?
Jesus not only wept, he continues to weep.
———————————-
I moved to a small town when I was a child. Even back then, there were free vaccinations and County health services.
What does Christianity have to do with this? Unless you are meaning, the thousands of free services that faith-based clinics provide such as preventive medicine, basic health care and even pharmaceuticals that are free or at a huge discount.
In order to make an argument, one cannot lump different income categories together and say there is a problem with the health care system.
The biggest problem is perhaps what you said, is ignorance on what is available.
Funny how the illegal aliens can figure it out and get the medical care they need huh?
The one thing that should be changed, in my opinion, is catastrophic illness or injury health care. This is a wallet breaker. This is where the government may be able to provide assistance.
However, to establish redundant agencies that all do the same thing in an inefficient manner is folly and monetarily unsound.
Living miles from town is not a health care problem, it’s a logistics problem.
You keep trying to focus the blame on Republicans or Christians or somebody.
Playing the ‘blame game’ doesn’t cut it anymore, unless you vowing for the title of ‘ultimate whiner.’
The “Right to Life” until birth.
unless you vowing = you are vying…
“Only a negligent mother or father would keep their children obtaining preventive medicine and vaccinations.”
First, the above statement is worded wrong. I’ll let y’all figure out what the problem is.
Instead, let’s talk prenatal care in teenagers, the highest at risk when it comes to premature births. Who tells them they need to see a doctor early? Does abstinence only sex education cover that?
The key is in education, no matter what the age of the mother. How will they be educated? How do they know there is help out there and how to get it?
Sorry, Regular, but I doubt you’ve dealt with as many teenage girls as I have. (Let’s hope you haven’t!) They get their information from other girls their age. One of my daughters had a best friend who became pregnant in H.S. Her parents were divorced and she lived with her abusive father. She didn’t have a clue what to do and no one to go to in her family, or so she thought. She came to me, and I took her up to Planned Parenthood and paid for her exam. With my encouragement and offer to be with her when she told one of her parents, she did. But if I or someone like me hadn’t been there to help…
Maybe one of the first steps is to ask those parents why they aren’t getting health care for their children.
“Predestined” –
I doubt if “Regular” bothers with teenaged girls.
Pre-teen boys, on the other hand….
End of life health care is a discussion I think needs to be had.
I don’t have any answers but would welcome the discussion. How much do we spend to delay the end of life? What impact does the cost of end of life care have on the cost of the health care system? Is the time gained quality time? Worth the cost? Does the quality of the time help determine the decision and justify the cost? Are there diagnosis that should be accepted as fatal (barring the miracle)? If medicine has a way of adding a bit of time at great cost (at least for some), is the cost justified? Are the prayed for miracles going to happen whether costly medical intervention is or isn’t availed? Do those who have the options use medical resources for the lengthening of their lives that could have been used in other / better ways?
I haven’t even scratched the surface of the questions that need to be a part of this difficult discussion.
Perhaps as in most every other topic the would be individual decisions that would vary widely. Probably. And maybe it will always come down to some will have options and others not (barring the miracle).
I had hoped Senator Kennedy might have led this difficult discussion. Seems he is instead using the much he has at his avail to add a little extra time to his own life.
I think Regular and I can agree that education is the key. We need to know why people don’t use the systems currently in place and then address them.
#
Predestined
Posted October 25, 2008 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
“Only a negligent mother or father would keep their children obtaining preventive medicine and vaccinations.”
First, the above statement is worded wrong. I’ll let y’all figure out what the problem is.
Instead, let’s talk prenatal care in teenagers, the highest at risk when it comes to premature births. Who tells them they need to see a doctor early? Does abstinence only sex education cover that?
The key is in education, no matter what the age of the mother. How will they be educated? How do they know there is help out there and how to get it?
Sorry, Regular, but I doubt you’ve dealt with as many teenage girls as I have. (Let’s hope you haven’t!) They get their information from other girls their age. One of my daughters had a best friend who became pregnant in H.S. Her parents were divorced and she lived with her abusive father. She didn’t have a clue what to do and no one to go to in her family, or so she thought. She came to me, and I took her up to Planned Parenthood and paid for her exam. With my encouragement and offer to be with her when she told one of her parents, she did. But if I or someone like me hadn’t been there to help…
Maybe one of the first steps is to ask those parents why they aren’t getting health care for their children.
===========================
You set out to prove that my statement was wrong, but in the end you proved that I was right.
The abusive father was negligent in seeing that his daughter found proper health care.
It’s good that you stepped in, but how does that resolve the situation for the twenty other girls you never met that have negligent parents for various reasons?
Rewarding yourself with an “atta girl” doesn’t resolve the issue, it just muddies the issue with the blame game.
Health classes are still taught in school?
I remember my health class in elementary school and I remember my teacher(s) reminding us where we can go if we didn’t know how to get help or where we could get help. There were also those “special forms” that those who were needy could get from the teacher for health care assistance.
As I said before, whining and misidentifying problems isn’t a solution.
lindainks55
Posted October 25, 2008 at 12:17 pm | Permalink
End of life health care is a discussion I think needs to be had.
I don’t have any answers but would welcome the discussion. How much do we spend to delay the end of life? What impact does the cost of end of life care have on the cost of the health care system? Is the time gained quality time? Worth the cost? Does the quality of the time help determine the decision and justify the cost? Are there diagnosis that should be accepted as fatal (barring the miracle)? If medicine has a way of adding a bit of time at great cost (at least for some), is the cost justified? Are the prayed for miracles going to happen whether costly medical intervention is or isn’t availed? Do those who have the options use medical resources for the lengthening of their lives that could have been used in other / better ways?
—————————————
Problem with end of life discussion is who gets to be the decider.
Brownlee,
You need to look at the the foundational documents of this nation. Even if something is a ‘right’ it does not mean that it will be provided for you. For instance, just because you have a right to own a gun does not mean the government, or anyone else, is required to provide it for you.
I seemed to have missed that Brownlee was only pasting John Young’s words to start discussion.
I apologize for mis-directing my remarks.
If only the logins would let you go back and edit previous posts.
A sweet irony I would point out to BOTH sides. If you are a Christian – or any other Abrahaimic for that matter – then you MUST support universal availability of health care. So, for those who claim America is based on ‘Christian principles’ then health care should be part of the package. For those on MY side – secular – it comes in with my basic belief that our ‘creator’ (whoever or whatever He or She is) expects it of us.
An unrelated but equally more important point. As noted, we D provide ER care and the ’system’ absorbs the cost. I submit that routine care is more cost-effective and would cost the ’system’ less.
Mary and linda raise an interesting and important point about end-of-life. I recently buried a man who had been a very important friend after he saved my life many years ago. I was at his bedside with his wife shortly before he passed. At what point DO we stop trying extraordinary attempts an prolongng life? At what point does that become prolonging DEATH? I don’t know the numbers (Mary can probably get them for us) but a large fractionof my lifetime health costs get spent in the last 6 months or so. Maybe, just maybe, it ain’t worth it.
My mother had told me that if I let them keep her hanging on with tubes and wires and all that she would come back and haunt me. As a nurse she knew all too well about that. We didn’t, and she passed quietly with her children at her side.
(And it’s a good thing – I know her and she WOULD haunt me!)
The cost of caring for preemies would probably pay for prenatatl care to avoid having preemies.
“Problem with end of life discussion is who gets to be the decider”
Very true regular. When I faced that issue for myself it was directed to be my wife with advice from our family doctor and her Priest. How’s that for irony – three Catholics with the power to turn me off!
“Phantom
Posted October 25, 2008 at 12:44 pm | Permalink
The cost of caring for preemies would probably pay for prenatatl care to avoid having preemies.”
Many times over.
If you google the cost of healthcare in the world, you will note there appears to be a “surcharge” Americans pay for care, for medical costs are quite high compared to countries with similar standards of living. I fail to see how they can bring good systems of INSURANCE, offering access regardless of wealth, that is beyond American knowhow. When the universal insurance plan came to Ontario 40 years ago, the insurance industry had a field day, demanding check-ups/tests/scans from prospective life insurance clients because they were “free”. Well they weren’t. The Insurance companies soon found the system was set up to take care of people, not reduce their risks, and the client had to pay for the check-ups out of their own pockets, still do. The insurance industry stopped demanding check-ups for coverage. Of course there is fraud, but it can be weeded out.
Well, JWink,
As a conservative, I find it rather annoying to respond to a BLOG question that starts out with the premise that I must be ‘deluded’ to have an opinion contrary to the wise and all knowing Brownlee’s.
The point of my ‘tongue-in-cheek’ rambling was that the “unalienable Rights” referred to in the Declaration of Independence are rights that should be protected by the government, but not provided at tax payer expense.
I have a right to bear arms, you don’t have to pay taxes to provide me with that right. I have a right to free speech, but I don’t have a right to make you listen or provide me with the forum.
I don’t have the right to free health care, but I do have the right to pursue good health any way I want too. Stay out of my way and my pocket book and I’ll afford you the same courtesy.
There is no such thing as “the right to pursue good health any way I want to”. Guvment intercedes and tells people what they can and cannot do in their pursuit of “good health”.
#
mxyzptlk
Posted October 25, 2008 at 2:25 pm | Permalink
There is no such thing as “the right to pursue good health any way I want to”. Guvment intercedes and tells people what they can and cannot do in their pursuit of “good health”.
_______________________________________________
Of course I have that right. Until government takes it away with mandated universal health care.
I’ll start transferring assets to India so I’ll be able to go there and get the care I need in my old age.
You, on the other hand, can stay here stand in line with the drunks and dopers for you flu shot.
“Good riddance to bad rubbish” my ma used to say.
Can I help you pack P?
Hank posted October 25, 2008 at 2:21 pm
As a conservative, I find it rather annoying to respond to a BLOG question that starts out with the premise that I must be ‘deluded’ to have an opinion contrary to the wise and all knowing Brownlee’s.
—————-
As a “conservative”, you should be able to notice that the header is by John Young. Brownlee posted it without additional comment, like Hank posted many of his AGW denier columns.
Hank: “Stay out of my way and my pocket book and I’ll afford you the same courtesy.”
—————-
The uninsured are already in your pocket book. I hope you enjoy paying more because of their lack of preventive care, emergency room visits, etc.
I’ve read, on average, 70% of all the money expended on an individual’s health care is spent in the last year of life.
It’s a bit of a skewed number, I grant you. If you’re 19 and in a car wreck all that cost at the trauma center stack up against pretty much no medical care beyond vaccinations and bumps and bruises.
But the numbers also reveal that Medicare is another example of how good politics usually results in bad economic policy.
Americans have chosen to fund Medicare for the single group of people most likely — at the ends of their lives — to require the most medical services. It’s as if someone went into business to sell automobile insurance only to drunk drivers, and the government subsidized their premiums.
Medicare is insurance based upon a high-risk pool of subscribers. Universal Medicare would expand that risk pool to younger, generally healthier people whose contributions (yeah, via taxes) would fund health care expenses for everyone. It would likely result in better preventative care, better prenatal care, and better care for less money for everyone.
“The uninsured are already in your pocket book”
Obviously, the uninsured MUST have great healthcare now since the government is already providing it.
With a broad stroke, the govermint has been through every one of my pocket books. All that’s left if for them to put their hands down my pants and grabbing my protected retirement accounts.
And that is coming. Very soon.
“Americans have chosen to fund Medicare”
Really? I must have missed that vote.
Hank,
Did you read the header by John Young, and his column?
http://www.kansas.com/205/story/570014.html
Or did you just get mad at the title, ‘Only deluded think health care isn’t a right’, and post your rant?
HLP: The universal insurance system I have first hand knowlege of, had only private practice/businesses involved, from the MD, to the testing labs., to the hospital. That medical profession, it’s practice or decisions are not hampered by any civil service, and you are free to persue what bugs you, but you cannot demand/get/even pay for privately, a procedure your MD/surgeon does not proscribe. There are so many myths out there about those “damn socialists”, truth has a hard time trying to penetrate the scar tissue left from years of scare tactics spread by well financed lobbyists
You set out to prove that my statement was wrong, but in the end you proved that I was right.
Your problem is that your statement was lacking the variables involved. You accuse me of playing the blame game, but it’s you who isn’t interested in improving the situation, just whining about those who want to make health care more accessible and affordable. You were the one who stated that it’s all the fault of negligent parents. That’s a copout.
Another thing I find is that by simply processing a claim through my insurance – even though we pay ot – results in about a 40% discount. In other words, a cash customer pays almost twice what an insurance customer pays.
I sometimes socialize with doctors.
They overwhelmingly advocate a single-payer system. They spend high salaries for people to process the many insurance policies they’re faced with. And one, who just retired to join Doctors Without Borders, said he spent way too much time to adapt treatments to what a patient’s insurance would cover; that he’d prescribe a medication available as a generic when, perhaps, a name-brand might be a little better.
He earned points when someone who was hospitalized recovered before the “average” patient because the hospital could charge for the extra day, even if the patient were discharged. And he’d have to fight tooth-and-nail to keep a patient a day or two over the *average,* simply because they didn’t recover in time.
Hospitals game the system. Part of the itemized bill you get includes the $10 box of Kleenex and that pitcher of ice water. Even though there’s the same box of Kleenex the next day and even though there’s the same plastic pitcher of water at bedside, the hospital charges full price per day… because they can. And, probably, because they have to.
Health care simply is not a market-driven enterprise.
CONs approaching health care as a commodity is simply wrong from the start.
“HLP” bitches at the prospect of drunks and deadbeats having the audacity to stand in front of him when he gets a flu shot.
Now there’s “christian” compassion for ya.
On a pure dollars-and-cents level I’d rather let that drunk or deadbeat get a flu shot than pay for their six or seven days in the hospital when they contract pneumonia. “HLP” would rather bask in his economic superiority.
Typical CON.
“I got mine! You go to hell!”
Or take a doctor as your second wife.
There is so much wrong with the present system, I can’t even begin to count the problems.
McCain will do nothing to make it better. He doesn’t have to worry, though..he benefits from government subsidized health care, he just doesn’t want anyone else to.
I think the markup is 40% if you’re uninsured, which is approximately a 29% discount on the “list” price of hospital services (especially).
In other words, if you’re in the hospital and the nurse gives you an aspirin, the price charged to your invoice depends on whether you’re insured. If you’re insured, the price is $1.00. If you’re not, it’s $1.40. (these prices are fairly accurate, btw, which should lead even the casual reader to the obvious questions, one why the heck is one aspirin a buck?, and two, if we went to a single-payer system where the payer could bargain with suppliers then close could we get to lowering the price of that aspirin from a buck to say a dime?)
If the US went to single-payer universal healthcare, where the payer could bargain for services/goods, the US economy would EXPLODE upward due largely to two factors. One, Americans would spend less on healthcare (even before behaviors change) so there would be far more disposable dollars sloshing about, and two, as JWink noted above we’d see far more talent employed to our best national interest because workers wouldn’t be afraid to lose their healthcare by changing jobs. We’d have more dollars and more workers sloshing about, and great economies are built on such liquidity.
Those who argue that single payer universal care would break us have it exactly, precisely, 180 degrees wrong.
“Universal Medicare would expand that risk pool to younger, generally healthier people whose contributions (yeah, via taxes) would fund health care expenses for everyone.”
Young people are already contributing. So would the proposal create a new tax, or increase the amount of contribution they would be paying?
The program you are comparing, and contemplating as an example of what could be expanded for universal coverage is not a very good example at all.
A MESSAGE TO THE PUBLIC:
Medicare’s financial status is even worse. This year Medicare’s Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund is expected to pay out more in hospital benefits and other expenditures than it receives in taxes and other dedicated revenues. The difference will be made up from general revenues which pay for interest credits to the Trust Fund. Growing annual deficits are projected to exhaust HI reserves in 2019.
The drawdown of Social Security and HI Trust Fund reserves and the general revenue transfers into SMI will result in mounting pressure on the Federal budget. In fact, pressure is already evident. For the second consecutive year, a “Medicare funding warning” is being triggered, signaling that non-dedicated sources of revenues—primarily general revenues—will soon account for more than 45 percent of Medicare’s outlays.
Part B of the Supplementary Medical Insurance (SMI) Trust Fund, which pays doctors’ bills and other outpatient expenses, and Part D, which pays for access to prescription drug coverage, are both projected to remain adequately financed into the indefinite future because current law automatically provides financing each year to meet next year’s expected costs. However, expected steep cost increases will result in rapidly growing general revenue financing needs—projected to rise from 1.3 percent of GDP in 2007 to 4.1 percent in 2082—as well as substantial increases over time in beneficiary premium charges.
We are increasingly concerned about inaction on the financial challenges facing the Medicare programs. The longer action is delayed, the greater will be the required adjustments, the larger the burden on future generations, and the more severe the detrimental economic impact on our nation.”
Conclusion
The financial difficulties facing Medicare pose enormous challenges. The sooner these challenges are addressed, the more varied and less disruptive their solutions can be. We urge the public to engage in informed discussion and policymakers to think creatively about the changing needs and preferences of working and retired Americans. A national conversation and timely political action are essential to ensure that Medicare continue to play a critical role in the lives of all Americans.
By the Trustees:
Henry M. Paulson, Jr.,
Secretary of the Treasury,
and Managing Trustee
Elaine L. Chao,
Secretary of Labor,
and Trustee
Michael O. Leavitt,
Secretary of Health
and Human Services,
and Trustee Michael J. Astrue,
Commissioner of
Social Security,
and Trustee
PS: Please stop democrat politicians from telling the American people, “Social Security is fine. Come on in, the water’s great!”
“Hospitals game the system.”
Or course they do! That’s because the government is paying the bill, and deciding what the bill should be.
The government is just as much in the middle of the healthcare “crises” (if there is one), as they were before the financial crises and subprime loans.
When will we learn that the government is not the solution to all America’s problems – and are many times the source of the problem?
“Now there’s “christian” compassion for ya.”
I’d much rather have individuals deciding what is “compassion” than the United States Government and their merry band of social engineers.
The government doesn’t HAVE to be the problem, AWay.
If we didn’t have half the country doing its dead level best to hobble government, if we all pulled together and made government work FOR us instead of AGAINST us, then all your objections go out the window.
The key is that first we acknowledge that government has profound strengths, employ the good, discard the bad, and we work together.
No, corporate greed is more at the source of the problem in health care than the government…from the drug companies, the insurance agencies, the duplication of services, etc. Everyone is making big bucks in the pretense of providing health care. It’s all about the almighty dollar, not providing services.
Not sure if yall are payin’ attention, but if not then here’s some news.
Wall Street ain’t no more. Big government is here now, on Wall Street, it’s a major player that ain’t goin’ away.
Trick for all Americans going forward is to find a way to make government work for us all, not try to shrink it down enough to drag it to the proverbial bathtub and drown it.
“I’d much rather have individuals deciding what is “compassion” than the United States Government and their merry band of social engineers.”
If you’re counting on the free market system, you’ll be sadly disappointed. BC/BS doesn’t give a damn about you.
I guess “socialized” medicine is fine for those over 65, the poor, the disabled, or the vets.
Just not for anyone else who is working hard, paying into the system, and unable to access affordable health care for themselves.
America…the only country where those citizens who take the most advantage of government subsidized health care judge and condemn the other American citizens who want the same rights and benefits.
“The key is that first we acknowledge that government has profound strengths, employ the good, discard the bad, and we work together.”
I will grant you that, as long as you will allow that the government is broke to the tune of ten trillion dollars and cannot afford another new entitlement program.
Walking to meet you in the middle……..
There is a good possibility the upcoming election will put in place strong enough majorities at every level of lawmakers who understand how broken the health care system is, how increased efficiency will actually lower costs and improve care, and that health care must be affordable and available to every American. The Republican Party has screwed the pooch — their King George and McCain have caused problems down ticket far enough the ones who refuse to get over their prejudices will just watch while improvements are made in spite of them.
The difference between what health care providers accept from insurance companies and the government and what they charge those without health care insurance is prima facia evidence of the utter contempt CONs have for the poor and “uninsurable.”
“Get sick and die!” is the CONservative approach to health care.
“for anyone else who is working hard, paying into the system, and unable to access affordable health care for themselves.”
Who should pay Mary? You?
PS: Don’t forget my earlier post: Government records indicate that maybe 6% have no healthcare.
We have no crises.
But I’ll acknowledge you did say “affordable”.
That’s in the eyes of the beholder. I have plenty of savings, but I cannot afford an expensive gas guzzling SUV. I drive a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid.
I can afford that. It’s been paid off for years now. So I have plenty to pay for my huge health insurance premium.
I value my health, and my families health highest of all.
I’ll give you an example. My own oldest child and spouse are young teachers. They have healthcare coverage available via the school district/state, but they declined coverage. Why? Too expensive, according to the young and healthy couple.
But they have a big 55+ inch plasma TV, tickets to the pro sport game in their area, drive two newer cars (and make payments), have the latest X Box, blackberry, computer games and toys, and have maxed their credit cards on worldly things.
But they fit perfectly in your group of those Americans for whom healthcare is too expensive.
It’s a matter of priorities.
“the only country where those citizens who take the most advantage of government subsidized health care judge and condemn”
I seem to see quite a bit of judging and condemning on this blog.
And how do you know no one bitches in other countries?
Perhaps the seniors in our country who have paid in to Social Security (FICA) and medicare all these years do feel a sense of ownership and entitlement. Having paid in for decades – I think they’ve earned the right to complain.
“If you’re counting on the free market system, you’ll be sadly disappointed. BC/BS doesn’t give a damn about you.”
I don’t give a rats butt whether any of them “care for me”. I happen to have good healthcare coverage, as do the vast majority of Americans. I don’t care if they don’t pray for me.
And you believe the “government” gives a damn about you? Are you referring to your various elected officials, or the 14 million federal employees>
You think those bureaucrats give a crap about you or me?
As Farm girl would say, “HE-HE”. Or maybe Jesus wept.
One thing I haven’t seen answered is why the Hawaii state healthcare failed. Healthwaves and not SCHIPS is how we insure our children in Kansas. While in insurance I saw parents that worked at Boeing qualify for this insurance. This is probably a big reason Hawaii shut down their program. When given a choice between free and ‘cost me a little’ most people will choose ‘free’ but free is just a misnomer because someone will pay. That would be the richer taxpayers. How many of you will fall in this tax bracket?
In the last ethics paper I wrote I decided after all of the evidence was in that no one who would benefits should be making end of life decisions. That would includes those Obamamaniacs who will see their taxes go down and some who will actually receive money back they never paid in. It would also be the hospitals and doctors who benefit from porlonging the lifes of patients.
Having just lost my mom I can say she made things much easier by having a directive about the care she wanted. No oxygen. No IVs. No food tubes when she stopped eating. She died peacefully in her sleep at the age of 93.
Hospice was so helpful. They made many of the hard decisions for my family.
I am always amazed at how the left throws out faith based ministries when it is to their advantage. Many homeless are helped daily by these faith based ministries. Many hungry are fed daily by these faith based ministries. Do we hear the left talking about this. Of course not.
Maggot starts out this comment page talking about the value Christians place on a ‘fetus’ which we call a baby. Many babies and their moms are helped by Options. His Helping Hands furnishes whole apt full of furniture, vehicles, food, clothing – all to help those in need retain their dignity while rebuilding their lifes. They are helped to get back on their feet and become self supporting. When does the left talk about this. That would be never. The Lords Diner, Catholic Charities, His Helping Hands, Options and many more practice our Christianity.
Writedoy writes:
Would you rather live in a country where if you can not afford to eat you starve?
A country where if you can not afford to get out of the cold, snow and ice you freeze to death?
There has been a lot of talk lately of Socialism, the above is the solution in a Socialist country.
The importance to the state is the determining factor to as to whether someone is fed sheltered and cared for in a medical sense.
———————–
Writer after working with the homeless on many ocassions I will tell you that some just won’t come in out of the cold. They are where they are by choice. If you try to get them to live in a shelter you had better lock them in because they will bolt at the first opportunity. Gov can’t fix all of the problems.
So now in your socalized medicine you want to include shelter. The gift that just keeps on giving. Obama thiniks he can do this by only increasing the taxes of the top 5% of taxpayers and giving a tax refund to the rest. Commonsense says this just won’t work.
I know this is long and the left will tell me I didn’t source it. Well it is my OHO and I am the source.
American, no, it’s not. Health care is unaffordable to those who don’t benefit from employer or government subsidized health insurance. Having a national policy that people can buy into is no different than Medicare.
I’m uninsurable due my history of metastatic cancer, if my husband loses his job, no private insurer will pick me up. I’ll be on my own, and if I get sick…we’ll lose everything if I decide I want to live.
The average premium for a family to buy their own private insurance is around $1,000 to $1,600 per month…I don’t know too many young families that can afford that, even if they go without cell phones, big screen TVs, nice cars, and all the other luxuries. For many of them it’s enough for them just to keep food on the table and gas in the car.
It’s a matter of affordablity, not priorities.
We can do better by our health care system with the right leadership. A $5,000 tax credit isn’t going to so a thing to help people afford health care.
“So now in your socalized medicine you want to include shelter. ”
That’s correct okobserver. All Americans are entitled to a socialized free homes too.
Here is the Obama special:
http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/09/24/2008-09-4_young_firm_wants_your_new_home_to_be_a_s.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/09/24/2008-09-24_young_firm_wants_your_new_home_to_be_a_s.html
I want mine to have have green door with red trim.
http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/09/24/2008-09-24_young_firm_wants_your_new_home_to_be_a_s.html
Believe me, American..if you get sick, you’ll care that your “good insurance” doesn’t give a damn about you or paying for your treatment.
You won’t need prayers, you’ll need them to pay your claims…and they’ll do everything to keep from doing it.
I see it all the time…people paying premiums for years, only to get sick and then have to fight tooth and nail for every benefit they’ve paid for. It’a all about the bottom line for the insurers, not providing services means they make more money…that’s what they care about.
“There is a good possibility the upcoming election will put in place strong enough majorities at every level of lawmakers”
Even Obama’s plan means people will pay. I’m not worried about socialized medicine even during a demcorats run federal government.
Just an aside. I had surgery in a secular hospital yesterday. My doctor prayed with me before the surgery. I was pleasantly surprised. Did great and came home this morning feeling like a new woman.
Been there Mary. Everyone has a family member who has been in a hospital with an illness, or suffered an injury requiring surgery, or accident. I have heard your sob stories before. But really, there are sad stories to be found on every front.
We won’t change the entire system – for the few who lack insurance. We will provide for the truly needy.
The rest of you will just have to keep bitching about paying for your health insurance, which allows you to live and post another day.
Me? I’m grateful!
“feeling like a new woman.”
You, you, you weren’t a man before the surgery, were you?
“All Americans are entitled to a socialized free homes too.”
It’s McCain that is suggesting that the government buy up all the homes in forclosure so people can continue to live in them until they “rework” their mortgage…why aren’t you screaming about that? If it was Obama’s idea..you’d be having a meltdown!
“The rest of you will just have to keep bitching about paying for your health insurance, which allows you to live and post another day”
I can’t get health insurance. What about me?
“make more money…that’s what they care about”
That sounds about right.
For my auto mechanic,
my plumber, my barber,
my car salesman,
my car manufacturer,
my tires manufacturer,
my dentist,
my eye doctor,
my college professor,
my high school teachers,
my drill instructor,
my accountant,
my employer,
my gas station operator,
my grocery store owner.
Gee, who doesn’t want to make money?
You’ll be the one with the “sob story” if you get sick. I guess as long as it doesn’t affect you personally, then you don’t care give a rip about anyone else, typical Christian right wing compassion.
AMway I agree that with the state of the economy the health plan he is proposing is a long way off. We need reforms not a ‘throw out the one we have mentality’. The solution is there and it is probably somewhere in the middle.
Mary for people like you and me we do need a choice. A modified plan where each insurance company has to figure into their underwriting criteria some high risk people who need insurance and can’t afford it. They would be offered a reduced premium and the company would expect to lose money on this group. This could and is now being offered in some places. Kansas has a program similar to this. We could start there.
When the ones in charge are making more money by denying services to the ones paying for those services, some would think it’s a big deal.
” typical Christian right wing compassion”
THere ya go Mary, got me labeled. I haven’t been to church in thirty years (well maybe a wedding or funeral or two, or three).
No but I was feeling very old. The ‘new woman’ was because of the great medical care I got. What a great country we live in – I felt free as a bird when I left to come home today – but I wasn’t guilty as hell!
Tightwad would work. Or maybe Ebenezer Scrooge.
But I’m honest and you can’t box me in with the other hypocrites.
I have my own cheese.
Obam is not proposing a “throw out what we have” , but a national policy that those who can’t get private insurance can buy into. That’s what we need. People who have insurance through their employers, or who have affordable premiums through private insurers can keep what they have.
Every American should have the right to affordable health care. Obama’s plan is better than McCain’s in getting this done.
okobserver, I’m happy for you and glad everything worked out for you. I was kidding.
I agree it is great to live in a country where we have so much abundance in life.
I must admit, I may have felt a tinge of fear had my doctor prayed just before carving me up. Some people only pray when they are desperate, ya know.
Mary they both have their good points. But what you are proposing isn’t so far from what many states have now.
“but a national policy that those who can’t get private insurance can buy into.”
I agree!
“People who have insurance through their employers, or who have affordable premiums through private insurers can keep what they have.”
I agree!
“Every American should have the right to affordable health care.”
I disagree! “affordable” lies in the eyes of the beholder. Some would rather spend their money on lottery tickets, a shiny new SUV, booze, or the finest clothes – than healthcare.
Healthcare is going to be EXPENSIVE. It is for my family now. It will be in the future for all of us.
Whatever the government offers, should only cover those who cannot get insurance, don’t have insurance available, and must be a competitive price with private coverage. It cannot be dirt cheap – except to the 6% who truly cannot afford it. {and I hesitate to go even that far.}
Hawaii tried “affordable”.
Didn’t last long. Everyone QUIT their private insurance and joined the “affordable” state plan.
It did not work.
I was surprised because it was the Galichia heart hospital and not of the Christis. Don’t know if I am allowed to put that here but I didn’t know they dealt with anything but cardio.
We have such a good health network I just don’t want to see that screwed up by the government and I do want to address the problems Mary and I have with being uninsurable.
Healthcare should rightly be the most expensive part of any American’s budget.
Life is not cheap.
Sorry if I lumped you in with the other hypocrites, AM…you just sound a lot like them at times.
Let me give you one example of what I find so frustrating about our health care system…yesterday I changed the dressing on a patient with a complicated wound. It’s a dressing that involves putting on a product that helps regrow tissue. The product comes in 4cm X4cm squares and it costs approximately $1,000 per square. I’ve had to put three of these squares on the wound so far. This is just one of the products we’re using on this particular wound…we’re also using a technology that costs around $5,000 per month to use…and this doesn’t include the other costs involved in trying to heal this one wound that may takes months to heal. It’s a great product, but it’s so overpriced simply because it can be.
This is just one small example of why our health care system is in crisis and costs are out of control.
There has to be some checks and balances in place so that medical products can be cost effective.
It’s the same with drug prices…one pill to treat osteoporosis shouldn’t cost $40. It’s not research we’re all paying for, it’s advertising…drug companies literally spend billions more on advertising and marketing drugs than on research.
Having been in insurance for 10 years I can honestly say the devil is in the details. This possibility should have been addressed before the plan was rolled out. There will always be that group of people with their hands out. You just have to plan for that and twart it before the fact.
Health care doesn’t have to be the most expensive thing in one’s budget if costs were contained in some reasonable manner.
It’s out of control and there are too many at the top making big bucks and employing lobbyists to make sure things stay the way they do.
“Let me give you one example ”
Maybe if the government wasn’t involved in price fixing medical costs to begin with, we’d have some healthy competition!
I too have family in the profession. Older brother is an DO Internist, wifes an RN, mom was an LPN until she got her RN, and two aunts are RN’s.
I hear stories too. Mostly about the buracracy that government intervention has created.
Mary two points here. We are a country that has always been in the forefront on medical research expecially on drug development. Other country wait until we develop it and then copy it. Any country that can do this will have lower costs. What happens when we take away the incentive for our brightest to go into research because they can’t make the kind of money they want.
My second point is that now you can get generic fosamax and with my drug plan. I am only paying $12 a month instead of the $75 copay I was paying. This is the way it works when the early successes are rewarded and then it becomes affordable when it goes generic.
Those patches are out of sight. My mom had a sore on her right hip that we were never able to heal.
“Health care doesn’t have to be the most expensive ”
Mary, what should be more expensive in our lives than healthcare?
Gas? Rent? Utilities?
What’s more important than human life and health?
XBoxes?
Well the pain meds have kicked in and I am going to bed. Good conversation. I think we have the answers we just need someone good to start implementing them.
I hope they prescribed you one of the less expensive pain meds, OKob..they work just as well.
I hope you have the ones which give you the best high. Rest tight.
Just as we saw greedy investors wreck our economy, that same greed is at work within pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Government doesn’t have to be a stumbling block, it can be part of the solution. Obama has a good plan. I’m excited about his leadership, his ability to research, analyze and evaluate on his way to reasonable solutions. It will be so good to have a man capable of critical thinking in The White House!
Oh, I don’t know AM..maybe our kids, our education, our churches, our charities…lots of things need money and committment..not just healthcare.
Health care can be affordable if it was better regulated…just like other countries, where drug companies can’t advertise and give perks to doctors just to prescribe their meds.
Do we really need to have all private, luxury suites in hospitals for patients to recooperate in and hospitals that resemble 5 star hotels?
Do we really need do perform all sorts of high tech tests for common conditions and illnesses?
You get my drift.
I’ll second that, Linda..it’s been 8 years since we’ve actually had anyone with intelligence and common sense in the White House.
“Only deluded think health care isn’t a right”
I have a more colorful, but less family friendly word for such folks.
Hopefully, after this election, their rather high and squeaky voices will be silenced or at the the least shouted down.
American_Way
Posted October 25, 2008 at 4:57 pm | Permalink
…what should be more expensive in our lives than healthcare?
—
I think personal security are right at the top. Things like houses, insurance for our families, saving for a rainy day. So I agree that personal health is a top priority (it certainly is mine).
But it seems loopy to me if you’re arguing that we should just leave on the table a solution that would lower healthcare costs. Single payer universal healthcare would certainly lower total aggregate healthcare outlays (aggregated over the nation’s citizens). If we had single payer, and if that payer were able to negotiate prices, it would bring enormous buying power to the table. I don’t think anybody can argue successfully that healthcare costs would stay where they are, and they certainly would not go up.
And such a system could be paid for by taxes. Healtcare costs would fall, Americans would still have more disposable income (although part of that increased disposable healthcare would go to the new taxes), certainly more Americans would be free to employ their skills in ways better for them and the economy as a whole. What’s not to like?
Let me rephrase the question. Why should we as Americans accept current healthcare costs when they could be lowered?
BlueJay,
You can go ahead and thank the tax payers for taking care of your child since you are not capable.
You are welcome.
“okobserver” –
I have no idea how old you are, only that you are apparently a grandmother. If Medicare contributed to the surgery you’ve referred to, though, it probably should be mentioned.
Further:
No CON has responded to my initial post on this thread that health care is clearly not a market-driven enterprise.
Dealing with health care from a market-based mindset — which is what you CONs tend to do — is as relevant to the issue as hiring a place-kicking coach for your baseball team.
(Go Rays!)
(But I digress…)
Every cent of every medical procedure that occurs in the United States today is paid for by someone. Sometimes its through government funded programs, sometimes through for-profit insurance companies charging you or your employer more than it really costs to insure you…just to make up the difference.
Unpaid medical bills which too often result in bankruptcy turns out to be a tax write-off for for-profit insurance companies and hospitals and health care providers. Guess who picks up the tab when those tax write-offs need to be covered by someone. Guess who? You. The taxpayer.
Having a heart attack is not the same as buying a Hummer. Health care is not market driven and can’t be dealt with by market-driven approaches CONs so dearly love.
And yeah, as long as you acknowledge that the water system and the sewer system and the fire department and the police department embody the evil specter of “socialism,” universal single-payer health coverage is something like what you CONs apparently fear more than health itself; yeah, it’s a “socialist” concept.
Boogah-Boogah!!!
Are you scared, CONs?
There’s another word for “socialism.”
It’s called “civilization.”
People come together and work together to come up with solutions few or none of them alone could come up with.
It’s at least as old as the Acts of the Apostles.
But the “I’ve got mine, you go to hell” mindset of CONs these days salivates like Pavlov’s Dog just at the mention of the “s” word.
Fine.
Believe what ever you choose to believe.
But don’t try to assume some moral superiority. Because you have none. The CON philosophy is intrinsically selfish. If you’ve happened to be born into the top of the system, or have figured out a way to game the system, as long as you feel comfortable with your biases and motives, you refuse to look at the system itself.
Universal Medicare really wouldn’t be all that different from what we’ve got, as far as expenditures are concerned. We’re all paying for Emergency Rooms and and Medicaid and defaulted hospital bills already.
It’s not a market-driven enterprise!
People aren’t gonna go out and get sick simply because there’s universal health care coverage.
We’re gonna spend the same amount of money for health care. But the present system has insurance company executives flying to Aspen on corporate jets instead of using that money to provide health care.
That, even for a CON, should seem absurd.
Medicare administrative costs run about 3%. For-profit insurance companies eat up more than 30% of every premium dollar.
But there still is an Emergency Room at the hospital. And there still will be an ambulance to show up if you collapse on the sidewalk. And if your house catches fire you won’t be asked for paperwork before they decide to turn on the hoses. You know… “socialism.”
C’mon, CONs.
Reality called.
You’re welcome to join us.
My prediction if health care keeps going the way it is. People bankrupted or those who cant get treatment start exercising their 2nd amendments on the hospital staff or insurance agents, maybe having some doctors Med school training splattered on the walls will spur some reform. And you get medical while in prison.
By the way, single payer healthcare wouldn’t hurt Big Pharma R&D at all. That’s because it’s not Big Pharma that would be carved out by single payer.
It’s insurance who’d be carved out. The middle man. Americans used to know how to get the middle man out of the deal practically by instinct.
Why have we lost this ability today?
As a taxpayer, I am paying for YOUR health care Nathan.
This despite the fact that your family has vastly more wealth than mine.
You’re welcome.
Note that I said R&D.
Another carve out would be Big Pharma marketing, especially marketing outlays that we see today.
What’s wrong with that?
“You can go ahead and thank the tax payers for taking care of your child since you are not capable.
You are welcome.”
Spoken like a true compassionate, loving, Christian, Nathan. What would you do if you couldn’t judge others in an attempt to feel superior?
Yes, we should remind Nathan that we all pay for HIS healthcare..but of course HE is entitled to benefits others are not, due to his superiority.
And by the way Nathan?
I AM grateful that my son has some level of health care. But I know I do not have you or anyone like you to thank for it.
To my knowledge and experience, Healthwave is voluntary for the medical and dental service providers who choose to paricipate. I am grateful for the few doctors and dentist who choose to do so. THEY exemplify that they are TRULY devoted to helping and healing.
Is health care a right? NO
Everybody ALREADY pays for everybody else’s health care.
The poor who CAN pay subsidize the system for both those who CAN’T pay as well as enabling group services to be offered to insurance companies at a discounted rate. The poor who CAN’T provide excuse real or not for hospitals and service providers to jack up costs.
Wellness and health care should NOT be a for profit enterprise for ANY but those actually doing the healing and helping.
If we go back to basics and actually remember how to cut out the middle man in Big pharma advertising does that mean I must give up the dream of being slim, lithe, long hair flowing out behind me as I float gracefully across the field of daisies? Damn. I was still trying to figure out which disease I had to contract in order to maybe get that cure…
Should those trying to provide their families with healthcare be assisted if the situation warreants? Yes as long as they are footing some of the bill
With business increasingly not providing insurance or easily affordable insurance to their employees, MORE people will not have health care.
Anyone can see where this eventually goes as costs increase.
Eventually, you reach a point where too few people can afford health care. Doctor’s offices and hospitals sit underused or idle. THIS forces their costs higher in order to stay in business.
Once again, for the Xth time.
You do not pay for my health care for several reasons.
I am in the Reserves. I do not get health care in the Reserves except for emergency care during the 2 days a month I am at drill and the most basic check ups to make sure I am deployable.
I pay for my own health care outside of the Marine Corps Reserve.
Even when I am on active duty and provided health care I am working for it.
Marines are paid very little compared to their equivalient in the private sector for the work we do. Then you have the gall to say you are paying for my health care? No, I earned that by working my ass of in the Marines.
“Should those trying to provide their families with healthcare be assisted if the situation warreants?”
Who decides that? You’re going to introduce ANOTHER layer of beauracracy ? Too many middle men is already a problem.
BlueJay,
Who knows what health care your son has. You change the story every time we talk about it.
At first you claimed your son didn’t have health care and when several of us backed you into a corner you claimed he did have Government health care and you were the one without.
Now you claim that your son only gets volunteer health care through health wave.
Well, Nathan…I work MY ass off all the time, yet I’m uninsurable due to pre existing conditions. All I want is health care coverage I can afford…why should that even be an issue? In a country like ours, EVERYONE should have access to affordable healthcare, regardless of circumstances. As long as it’s run by the free market, lots of people like me get left out.
Healthwave is Medicaid for kids…it’s government subsidized.
BlueJay
Posted October 25, 2008 at 5:56 pm | Permalink
“Should those trying to provide their families with healthcare be assisted if the situation warreants?”
Who decides that? You’re going to introduce ANOTHER layer of beauracracy ? Too many middle men is already a problem
————————————————-
Regulate it along income guidelines,or are you wanting a free ride?
That;s teh one thing I’d love to see is a single payor source for health care..that way there would be no “us” and “them” comparisons…we’d all have the same health care coverage…it’ll never happen in this country because it makes too much sense.
That’s the big problem, free…the middle men who are getting rich off the present system at the cost to the consumer.
Blue Jay,
The last part of my post was uncalled for.
“several of us backed you into a corner”
Huh?
“At first you claimed your son didn’t have health care”
I don’t remember posting that. IF I did, it may have been true at the time.
I have NEVER been anything but honest about my own personal situation.
“Now you claim that your son only gets volunteer health care through health wave.”
Read my post again. I said it was my knowledge and experience. Healthwave has a limited list of doctors and dentists. It is my assumption that these providers CHOOSE to be part of the program. Otherwise I could just take my son anywhere for care.
I’d prefer to discuss solutions so that everyone can have health care. I know that you, Nathan, would rather go to blaming people for not having health care.
Thanks, but I consider that a waste of time.
Mary,
I agree with you. Everyone should have access to afordable health care.
What does that have to do with health care being a “right” though?
Obama is the only one to propose a workable solution for the health care crisis and bringing down the costs of medical care.
I hope he can get it done.
See? That is the beauty of the con way of taking on a problem.
Problem: People can’t afford health care.
Con solution: What problem? It’s THEIR problem and THEIR fault.
No innovation. No improvement. And of course, no progress or solution. Just say the problem doesn’t exist or is the fault of the victim and PRESTO! everything fixed!
Except of course, it isn’t and only gets worse. Which gives the cons an even LARGER pool of people to point at and judge.
Do you think it’s a right to have police and fire protection? How about clean water and safe roads? What about the right to education?
Tell me, Nathan…why should affordable access to basic medical care be any different?
Back later. Maybe.
If you walk into the ER tonight with chest pains and no way to pay for it…you have the “right” to receive emergency treatment to save your life, Nathan. Should it be any other way?
UMMMM…I guess Nathan doesn’t like it when people ask HIM questions…he runs from the room.
See ya all later.
Mary,
I was actually out grilling some burgers. Since you are leaving though…
#
Predestined
Posted October 25, 2008 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
You set out to prove that my statement was wrong, but in the end you proved that I was right.
Your problem is that your statement was lacking the variables involved. You accuse me of playing the blame game, but it’s you who isn’t interested in improving the situation, just whining about those who want to make health care more accessible and affordable. You were the one who stated that it’s all the fault of negligent parents. That’s a copout.
============================================
A court of law would state the parent(s) was negligent as well. Or haven’t you kept up with the news that one of the primary reasons for children to be taken out of abusive homes is neglect?
Mary_Caruso
Posted October 25, 2008 at 3:48 pm | Permalink
I guess “socialized” medicine is fine for those over 65, the poor, the disabled, or the vets.
Just not for anyone else who is working hard, paying into the system, and unable to access affordable health care for themselves.
——————————————
Everyone pays into social security and medicare, including the military.
I don’t know how many times I have posted this on this blog.
“Do you think it’s a right to have police and fire protection?”
No. And last time I checked neither did the courts.
If you call 911 the Police will respond if they can. Same thing with the fire department.
You have no “right” for them to come out to help you. There are numerous examples where the Police have not provided services to people in many different regards.
“How about clean water and safe roads? What about the right to education?”
If my home is out in the middle of the Arizona desert do I have a right to clean water and safe roads?
Nope. These are merely services provided which we pay for. We have no right to any of it.
Have you driven around some of the neighborhoods in Wichita with no stop signs? No paved roads?
“Tell me, Nathan…why should affordable access to basic medical care be any different?”
God, I pray it is much different than the things you listed.
Mary_Caruso
Posted October 25, 2008 at 4:27 pm | Permalink
You’ll be the one with the “sob story” if you get sick. I guess as long as it doesn’t affect you personally, then you don’t care give a rip about anyone else, typical Christian right wing compassion.
================================
Be sure and not go to Via Christi or Wesley Presbyterian – you know, those typical Christian right wing establishments.
#
BlueJay
Posted October 25, 2008 at 5:34 pm | Permalink
As a taxpayer, I am paying for YOUR health care Nathan.
This despite the fact that your family has vastly more wealth than mine.
================================
Active duty military pay social security and for medicare as well.
We also receive less basic and instead get health care as a compensation instead of pay. This was designed by Congress, not the military.
Of course, you Junior, wouldn’t survive Basic Training to even qualify.
Just another whiner…
“If you walk into the ER tonight with chest pains and no way to pay for it…you have the “right” to receive emergency treatment to save your life, Nathan. Should it be any other way?”
Well, there are many circumstances where people do indeed have the ability to pay or insurance but are either unable to prove it at the time or are unable to because of their medical problems.
I am glad that we provide this service. But you still have to pay for it. They will bill you for it.
Unless you find some way of getting out of the payments the treatment is not free, it is simply not denied to you.
According to Susan Wagle, all you have to do is cancel your cell phone, and then you can afford health insurance.
What a smug b!tch.
CapnAmerica,
Obviously you have not seen some of the cell phone bills people have let alone what they paid for their phone.
Add in cable TV, the TV, and many other things which are not needed and all of a sudden health care is affordable.
#
Nathaniel
Posted October 25, 2008 at 7:25 pm | Permalink
CapnAmerica,
Obviously you have not seen some of the cell phone bills people have let alone what they paid for their phone.
Add in cable TV, the TV, and many other things which are not needed and all of a sudden health care is affordable.
——————–
Yep, all they need is a basic land line. All of these ‘texters’ and cell phone junkies have created a whole new level of debt for themselves.
When there were only three channels on TV, four if you count the ‘part time’ Public Channel, people did other things. They attended functions, meeting, did outdoor activities and spent more time with their children.
It’s kind of funny now that I think of it. My grandparents, both sets, only watched the six o-clock news and Lawrence Welk. Their old, glowing dot TV’s lasted for decades – black and white of course with rabbit ears.
BlueJay writes:
To my knowledge and experience, Healthwave is voluntary for the medical and dental service providers who choose to paricipate. I am grateful for the few doctors and dentist who choose to do so. THEY exemplify that they are TRULY devoted to helping and healing.
———————-
Actually this is a contract like any other state contract. The doctors and dentists are part of an approved panel. They are then paid at the usual and customary rates for the area and procedure.
This isn’t volunteer work, trust me. You really should research this before you pat them on the back. There are volunteer clinics for a day. Many of these are ran by insurance companies giving back to the neighborhood.
——————————–
BlueJay
Posted October 25, 2008 at 5:54 pm | Permalink
With business increasingly not providing insurance or easily affordable insurance to their employees, MORE people will not have health care.
Anyone can see where this eventually goes as costs increase.
Eventually, you reach a point where too few people can afford health care. Doctor’s offices and hospitals sit underused or idle. THIS forces their costs higher in order to stay in business.
——————————
Hardly, when people cut back on health care then the price will come down. Look what happened when people stopped driving as much and the price of gas came down. The oil speculators were no longer able to drive up the price of oil and the market price came down.
The market will work this way everytime. That is why drill here, drill now and pay less was the catylist that started oil prices down. OPEC has met several times trying to figure out how to get oil prices up again but they shop themselves in the foot with the high prices and they are no longer in the drivers seat.
Same will happen with drugs and medical bills.
That’s right Brownlee,
YOU were born on this Earth, and EVERYONE ELSE owes you Free Healthcare, Food, Housing, Clothing, Free Heating/Cooling, a Car, a Boat, and Beer.
Now Brownlee, since YOU OWE ME ALL THIS FREE STUFF, I DEMAND THAT YOU SEND A CHECK TO ME IN THE AMOUNT OF $1,000,000.
Brownlee, it is MY RIGHT. And somebody has to pay for my rights, so IT MIGHT AS WELL BE Y O U !
Y O U Brownlee, said it’s my right, and by God, I’m demanding my right, right now!
Pay up Bud. You owe me and lotsa other people.
What?
BROWNLEE, YOU DON’T WANT TO PAY FOR MY FREE HEALTHCARE RIGHT!
Darn you straight to Heck then, for being such a lame-brain hypocrite saying on one hand that people have a Right to Free Siht, then on the other hand, YOU REFUSE TO PAY ME FOR MY RIGHT!
Oh, I get it.
You want SOMEBODY ELSE to pay.
You frickin hypocrite Brownlee. How can you possibly look your sorry assed face in the mirror every day?
Say JR,
I’m coming over tomorrow to knock on your door and demand that you hand me money to pay for health care for my kids.
It’s my right, by God, and JR, you’ve been saying it’s my right for a long time.
Now, it’s time for you to put your money where your mouth is.
Pay up bud.
The bill is past due.
Brownlee/JR,
You must be deluded if you don’t expect to give me money to pay for my kids’ healthcare.
It’s my right. It’s my kids’ right.
Pay up guys. It’s time for y’all to put your money where your big fat lazy a mouths have been for a long, long, time.
And your bills are way past due.
Show me the money, R I G H T – N O W !!!
I just loved the cartoon on the editorial page today. It showed someone congratulating Obama for raising an amazing amount of money last month. It then showed this same person picking up a bag with half the money in it to take to the McCain campaign. Obama hollers ‘thats my money’. The guy just kept going and said something to the effect of ‘from those who have to those who need. Isn’t that you plan?’
Regular
Posted October 25, 2008 at 9:16 am | Permalink
Leading causes of deaths for infants in the U.S.
Let’s see:
Health Care would fix this how?
————————————————————–
There is nothing to fix Regular. We need more babies to die. We need more abortions.
Earth has too many people. WE have all caused Global Warming and we will kill all life on this Earth.
We need less healthcare, not more.
We need fewer humans, not more.
Isn’t that right Cosmos?
Good point OK.
Obama needs to share his wealth.
Isn’t it amazing how Obama can raise $150 million in one month from so many poor, little, people?
I thought the economy was in crisis?
Corporations (and businesses) don’t pay for health care! People pay for health care.
Same argument as Corporations don’t pay taxes. It just gets reflected in their prices.
One reason Airbus was able to outbid Boeing (with mccain’s insistence) was that subsidies both direct and indirect couldn’t be taken into account.
Business would be more competitive with countries with socialized health care if they didn’t have to pass on the expense to the consumer.
Big Phantom Revelation: Corporations are not run by humans.
I want my free healtcare!
Wah! Wah! Wah!
I want my free food!
Wah! Wah! Wah!
I want my free house!
Wah! Wah! Wah!
I want my free clothes!
Wah! Wah! Wah!
I T
I S
M Y
R I G H T !!!
Corporations are not run by humans, they’re run by blood sucking corps.
We can count on our insurance industry to fight tooth and nail any concept of health care as a right. If it’s a right, then they can’t sell it to us. If they can’t sell it, they’ll lose one of their biggest cash cows.
Yeah I thought so.
NO ideas from the cons.
Just more of the same. “Poor people are not suffering enough! When they are homeless and eating dirt and thankful for that dirt THEN come talk to me about health care for them!”
THANKFULLY, such folks are about to be put in the margins where they belong. They WILL contribute to the solution whether they have the compassion to do so or not. TOO bad they can’t bring anything more than judgment and blame.
Jed
Posted October 25, 2008 at 9:26 pm | Permalink
We can count on our insurance industry to fight tooth and nail any concept of health care as a right. If it’s a right, then they can’t sell it to us. If they can’t sell it, they’ll lose one of their biggest cash cows.
—
Of course.
And they’ll turn their lobbyists loose en masse again, if they think they need to keep us Americans in line.
That’s what’s so sweet this time. The US taxpayer now owns AIG, and it sounds like we may own some more big insurance companies in the near future. Perfect timing IF we can get some courage out of Congress and the Exec.
Clearly written by a liberal journalist rather than a health care worker.
You do not have a ‘right’ to make me take care of you. I have a responsibility and oath to take care of those in need, but you do not have a right to make me take care of anyone.
Further, anyone that thinks national health care will magically solve all of our health care problems is delusional. Just look to our friend in the north. 7 month wait for a CT scan. 7 year wait for a knee replacement. And what happens to those folks in the mean time? Oh, that right, they sit at home and draw on government welfare.
If health care is a right and national health care is so wonderful, tell me, why are Canadians STILL coming to the US for treatment?
“If health care is a right and national health care is so wonderful, tell me, why are Canadians STILL coming to the US for treatment?”
—
It’s only a handful. And in any group you’ll always have some naysayers.
Canadians favor their national healthcare by a WIDE majority.
Besides, if insurance is so great why doesn’t that handful of Canadians buy their own Canadian health insurance riders, and skip that trip, receive their care on their own schedule, and north of the border?
They are free to buy private insurance riders if they wish.
Just got home, and haven’t read the thread. I’ll offer just this thought:
If we are using the term “right” in the same sense we usually use the term as referencing “rights” as protected in the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, etc. amendments, NO, healthcare is NOT a right.
Rights are inherent and inalienable, and for that reason, few but precious. Healthcare is neither inherent nor inalienable. It’s just that simple.
Now, that said – if we, as a society, wish to provide healthcare to all, and dedicate the resources to do so, certainly, we can and should. But a “right,” in the same sense as our other “rights?”
Not at all. Absolutely not.
I still have a thought on a health insurance plan that might be palatable to both sides, if I could share it with someone who is knowledgable in insurance to see if it could work. Any takers? I’ll do this privately, to avoid the idiots – on both sides – here.
“If health care is a right and national health care is so wonderful, tell me, why are Canadians STILL coming to the US for treatment?”
Why are so many Americans going to Mexico of all places, to receive great healthcare at a reasonable cost?
Does that mean Mexico’s health care system is better than ours?
ROFLMAO!
http://ezinearticles.com/?American-Patients-See-Mexico-As-a-Better-Health-Care-Alternative&id=1605352
Medical tourism growing
http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2005/mar/tourism072505.html
situvieux1: Canadians don’t come to the US for health care, not in the manner you suggest. At any one time there are 600,000 of them here and in winter more than a million, most of them elderly and retirees who will need to see a doctor or continue therapies started at home. Small Canadian towns along the border may find it necessary to use bigger/closer US facilites when an emergemcy arises, but that is rare and for what it’s worth, folks in upstate Vermont sometimes go to Montreal. In fact many of those US hospitals have Canadian professional health care workers who cross the border every day to go to work. Canadian firefighters have been responding to emegencies in New York and Vermont for decades because their local facilites are more complete, that does mean there is a shortage of US firefighers or we have to turn to Canada to put out fires! Same thing with forest fires, you will find Canadian foresters as far south as California on the firelines when an emergency happens. It’s called co-operation, not reliance. Your “argument” is another misrepresentation of what is going on on the ground.The American Student Medical Association wrote a report on the myth of Canadians standing around like feed lot cattle waiting to be cared for by a better equipped US health care system. Read it,its quite interesting.
situvieux1:Some societies think that therapy and lifestyle changes are more effective than surgery, especially with load bearing joints, obeseity etc., maybe that’s why the Canadian system is reluctant to operate on anyone who is not a good candiadate to benefit from the procedure. If you still carry crushing weight a new knee won’t last and tummy tucks are dangrouse as compared to life style changes, but if surgery is a profit center, who cares? Therein lies the idea of wait times so often critcized in the Canadian system. Elective surgery takes second place to needed surgery. 7 years for surgery and 7 months for a proscibed scan is nonsense. Besides scans a seem to be a uniquely American tool, not so much used elsewhere….just another revenue source? GE does do wonderful marketing..remember the mamography scan hype when it came out? Well the results are often wrong, causing needless worry, and besides, they got a better way of scanning now…or so they say. Some scans do harm to the body and should only be used as a diagnostic tool as a last resort. Just some more ASMA findings.
“The key is that first we acknowledge that government has profound strengths,
Name one.