John McCain did an effective job in Wednesday night’s debate making a conservative case on taxes, free trade and opposition to abortion. But in order to win, he has to attract independent and moderate voters. And his debate performance and responses didn’t do that.
A large majority of viewers surveyed said that Barack Obama won the debate – 58 to 31 percent in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll. But viewers also gave Obama much higher marks on who would do a better job on the economy, on taxes and on health care. In the CNN poll, McCain only scored higher on who attacked his opponent more and who acted more like a typical politician – which hurts McCain’s appeal with independents.
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“But in order to win, he has to attract independent and moderate voters. And his debate performance and responses didn’t do that.”
The reason independents and moderates are not leaning toward McCain is his policies, opinions, and viewpoints are too conservative. The method of his campaign will not be able to sway them, unless his campaign messages distort the truth of his views.
McCain’s campaign, and his VP pick, seems to be causing some of his earlier supporters to switch to Obama.
Palin is another big problem with the Inds. The radical base loves her – the rest not so much …
Biden, on the other hand, seems to play well with the middle.
Funny that Mr. Brownlee had to go to another source (CNN!) to support his position that Obama won the debate, McCain is currently leading the poll in the Wichita Eagle. Evidently, alot of people don’t understand Joe the Plumber’s concerns, but they should…..
GunhugnGodNut,
Yes, more people should understand Joe the plumber’s concerns.
McCain Used Joe Wurzelbacher to Depict His Tax Plan; Ironically He Is in Line for Obama’s Tax Plan’
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/Story?id=6047360&page=2
“Wurzelbacher conceded today that he is not in danger of being hit with the higher tax rate. He acknowledged that he wants to buy a plumbing company for $250,000 to $280,000. That wouldn’t be how much profit he would make from the firm.
He would make much less, he said.
That would seem to indicate that Wurzelbacher would not be subject to Obama’s proposed tax increase from 36 percent to 39 percent for those making more than $250,000 per family. Instead, he would be eligible for a tax cut that Obama is proposing.”
GunhugnGodNut,
CNN is National. Wichita Eagle is, well, Wichita. I wouldn’t expect anything different from Wichita’s gun hugging God nuts.
How nice that Joe the Plumber decided to be honest and admit his error.
Apparently, Joe the Plumber didn’t understand his concern either.
Predestined posted October 16, 2008 at 12:33 pm
How nice that Joe the Plumber decided to be honest and admit his error.
———
Too bad McCain can’t be honest.
Or does McCain actually believe that the small plumbing business that Joe works for has a net income > than $250,000?
Mccain is so out of touch he probably thinks the average plumber pulls down 250k a yr.
But if you can make 50 bucks an hour pickin vegies, anything is possible.
“Evidently, alot of people don’t understand Joe the Plumber’s concerns, but they should…..”
Maybe some of us (especially small business owners like myself) understand him far better than you realize:
“Fact check: Plumber Joe’s taxes.
McCain has entrepreneurs spooked about tax hikes, but fewer than 2% of small business owners would pay more under Obama’s plan.
CNNMoney.com) — In speech after speech, presidential candidate John McCain hammers on the claim that his rival Barack Obama will raise taxes on many small businesses.
At the debate on Wednesday night, McCain said, “The small businesses that we’re talking about would receive an increase in their taxes right now.”
More typically he has said: “What [Obama] hasn’t told you is that he would tax half of the income of small businesses in America,” a line used in La Crosse, Wisc., last week.
Should small business owners fear for their wallets if Obama is elected? Not the vast majority, business and tax experts say.
To make its claim, according to a McCain spokesman, the campaign counts as a small-business owner any taxpayer who files a Schedule C, E or F – the forms used to report gains and losses from business ventures and farms.
Using that definition and citing IRS data, the campaign notes that “56.8% of total small business income is earned by businesses in the top two rates, which Barack Obama has pledged to raise.”
It’s true that Obama has proposed raising taxes on the top two income rates.
But there are three main problems with McCain’s charge.
What is a small business?
First, it relies on a broad definition of what counts as a small business, including everyone who files a Schedule C, E and F.
But most people who file those forms don’t run a business for a living: Those forms are also used to report income from freelance and consulting work, real-estate rentals, and most other non-salary sources.
For example, McCain and Obama both file Schedule C returns, thanks to their book royalties – but they hardly should be considered small business owners.
In 2005, there were 21.5 million Schedule C returns filed, according to the IRS.
A more realistic definition of small businesses turns up far fewer firms. The Small Business Administration estimates that there were 6 million small businesses in 2005, as measured by those with fewer than 500 employees and with staff on the payroll other than the owner.
Who pays?
Second, even using the broad definition of small business that McCain likes, very few owners would see their own taxes rise.
That’s because the lion’s share of taxable income comes from a small number of wealthy businesses. Out of 34.7 million filers with business income on Schedules C, E or F, 479,000 filers fall into the top two brackets, according to an analysis of projected 2009 filings by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.
The other 34.3 million – or 98.6% – would be unaffected by Obama’s proposed rate hike.
That includes Joe “The Plumber” Wurzelbacher, whom McCain invoked nearly two dozen times at the debate Wednesday night to illustrate the plight of the average worker and small business owner.
“Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years … he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes,” McCain said.
In an interview afterward with WTOL, Wurzelbacher acknowledged that he’d still like to eventually buy the plumbing company he works for but that he wouldn’t yet be hit by higher taxes.
“I want to set the record straight: Currently I would not fall into Barack Obama’s $250,000-plus,” he said. “But if I’m lucky in business and taxes don’t go up then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket – well, let me rephrase it. Hopefully, that tax won’t be there.”
Few owners are that lucky in business. In a member survey conducted late last year, the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) found that only 14% of respondents said they had $200,000 or more in annual income.
As Tax Policy Center fellow Len Berman recently told Fortune Small Business: “Most owners of small businesses have small incomes.”
What gets taxed?
Third, even if you’re one of the rare business owners making enough money to be affected by Obama’s proposed tax increases, you still won’t see a big hike in your tax bill.
McCain’s claim that Obama “will increase taxes on 50% of small business revenue” – the line he used in the second presidential debate – is incorrect because of how income is taxed.
If a business owner falls into the top bracket, that doesn’t mean that all of his or her income is taxed at the highest level.
For example: If a small-business owner makes $210,000 in taxable income, he edges into the 33% bracket, one of the two top tax rates that Obama would like to raise.
But he would pay the higher tax only on the amount that exceeds the cutoff – in 2007, the two top tax rates applied to single filers with income of $160,850 or more and joint filers with income of at least $195,850. As a single filer, this business owner would see his federal taxes increase $1,475 under Obama’s plan, which calls for raising the 33% tax rate to 36%.
“While Obama does favor raising the top two rates, the quote is not true because not all the small business income of those in the top two rates is taxed at the 33% and 35% rates,” said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the nonpartisan Tax Foundation.
The bottom line: McCain’s claim only works by using an overly broad definition of what counts as a “small business” – and even with that definition, fewer than 2% of business owners would be hit by Obama’s proposed rate increase. For those who are affected, the increase would be levied only on a part of their earnings, not all of them.
CNNMoney.com writer Emily Maltby contributed to this report.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbusiness/small_biz_taxes_factcheck.smb/index.htm
I am Independent and I don’t care if is Republican or Democrat or any other party.
The choices are once again and every time two of the same never anything different but I do know that I won’t vote for a sexist that uses a woman as selfish political ploy in his campaign instead of real political values.
McCain would have fair better to have picked Hillary Clinton as his VP, which would certainly strike some people’s nerves.
What rates would a two-person plumbing business have to charge, to have a net income > $200,000 or $250.000?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber
“Wurzelbacher, 34, said he doesn’t have a good plan put together on how he would buy Newell Plumbing and Heating in nearby Toledo.
He said the business consists of owner Al Newell and him. Wurzelbacher said he’s worked there for six years and that the two have talked about his taking it over at some point.
“There’s a lot I’ve got to learn,” he said.”
McCain doesn’t vet anyone! Even Joe is a disappointment when a bit of time is spent to find facts. Should tell everyone what they need to know about McCain making gut decisions!
I am calling this right now.
The majority of Americans will either not vote, or vote third party.
You heard it here first.
The two party duopoly is coming to a welcomed end.
Too bad is wasn’t sooner.
John McCain looked like a sad little angry man lashing out at everything last night. On one hand McCain states that he does not care about some washed-out terrorist but then attacks Obama about the very same washed-out terrorist.
And as for McCain knowing how to fix things – then why hasn’t he done them in the last 26 years and why doesn’t he let the secret out and tell the voters how to fix things BEFORE the election.
This tactic, in my opinion, makes McCain look like some sleazy car salesman telling the potential buyer to not worry about that smoke coming out of the engine.
I think alot of people are going to turn out to vote this year and that will determine the outcome. But I do think a third party is more viable in the next election than ever before.
I, for one, would love to vote for a woman but not just any woman; which is why I cannot vote for Sarah Palin.
“The majority of Americans will either not vote, or vote third party.”
I htink the usual result is about 50% turnout. Third party – about 2-3% this year.
I agree completely mom! Voter turnout will set all-time new highs. It is that important. If any voters are tempted to stay home or vote third party it might be Republicans. But, I think they will also turn out in record numbers. Haven’t they said Sarah Palin has them excited and enthused? Most states offer many convenient ways to vote and that will make the youth vote for reliable. The days of everyone voting on one Tuesday are over as they shuld be.
McCain is currently leading the poll in the Wichita Eagle.
Would that be the unscientific poll, where anyone who wants to click can “vote,” probably repeatedly?
Excuse me, I have to go do my civic duty.
Would that be the unscientific poll, where anyone who wants to click can “vote,” probably repeatedly?
Looks like one vote per cookie. That’s good.
Rage
Posted October 16, 2008 at 1:51 pm | Permalink
Would that be the unscientific poll, where anyone who wants to click can “vote,” probably repeatedly?
Looks like one vote per cookie. That’s good.
Rage- If you wnat my vote, I need to know flavor the cookie is.
Sarcasm /off.
1. Joe the Plumber is not a licensed plumber.
2. He is related to Keating of the Keating 5 scandal.
3. He’s a staunch CONservative (voted in the last Repuke primary) who although a working man continues to vote against his own interests.
Oh, no. We lost the stupid white man vote.
Fortunately, they’re finally in the minority.
bth
Posted October 16, 2008 at 1:44 pm | Permalink
“The majority of Americans will either not vote, or vote third party.”
I htink the usual result is about 50% turnout. Third party – about 2-3% this year.
_________________________________________________
I don’t remember 150 million people going to vote for republicans and democrats in my lifetime. I could be wrong though.
I think republicans and democrats will grab about 30% of the american publics votes. This will probably be good enough to win, but hardly the majority.
The other 70% will either not vote or will vote third party.
Funny that only 30% of the public get to decide the direction of 300 million.
50% would not translate to 150 million – remember we are talking adults.
” For example, in the United States, approximately 70% of the eligible population registers to vote, which may be an important contributing factor in the low average election turnout, which in recent decades just barely has topped 50% of voting age population in presidential elections. However, in 2004, the presidential election turnout was up to 56.70% of all US citizens old enough to vote.[1]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout
I’ll guess 60% this year.
Turnout in 2004 presidential election: 123,535,883
http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2004G.html
Austrian_Economist,
I *think* you’re confusing the population number with the number of eligible voters. 301 mil is population. That would include children who are not eligible to vote. If that’s correct, there wouldn’t have been 150 million voters.
A_E – care to make a friendly wager?
I’ll say that at least 50% will vote for one of the two major parties.
Funny that only 30% of the public get to decide the direction of 300 million.
Even if your percentage is wrong, it isn’t funny. It’s sad. And those will be the people who whine the most.
My mother always told me that if one doesn’t vote, one doesn’t get to complain. I haven’t missed a national election since I was eligible to vote in 1972. I earned the right to whine. :)
“Austrian_Economist
…’I htink the usual result is about 50% turnout. Third party – about 2-3% this year.
_________________________________________________
I don’t remember 150 million people going to vote for republicans and democrats in my lifetime….I think republicans and democrats will grab about 30% of the american publics votes. This will probably be good enough to win, but hardly the majority.
The other 70% will either not vote or will vote third party.
Funny that only 30% of the public get to decide the direction of 300 million.”
Many of the other 70% of the 300 million people in the US are not eligible to vote – not citizens, too young, felons, etc.
That being said, yes the number of eligible voters that do vote is still small, and the result is a minority of citizens deciding the leadership of the entire country.
I would like to see the number of voters expanded (voting is mandatory for all eligible voters in many countries)
“Let Them Vote”
http://bostonreview.net/BR23.5/Gordon.html
McCain really blew it when he picked Palin. I think people were initially excited about her, but as she opened her mouth people got a lot less excited. As people learned about her beliefs, they got even less excited.
I think he had a good shot at winning this thing before Palin (I was very seriously considering voting for him), but I believe the addition of the pit bull with lipstick will ultimately sink him.
I also find it interesting how they blew this whole Joe the plumber thing. Surely they would have known that people would do some checking on the guy and find all of his ties to very conservative elements of the Republican party. The fall-out from Joe the plumber will hurt far more then it helped during that debate.
And finally, the split screen was hilarious during the debate. McCain kept rolling his eyes and scowling. He needs to learn to display a little class. Many folks thought he was a crotchety old man before and probably more think that now.
Austrian_Economist posted October 16, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Funny that only 30% of the public get to decide the direction of 300 million.
————-
Laziness and failing ones civic duty isn’t “funny”.
What’s really pathetic is that voters will “decide” to vote for McCain, because Joe the Plumber did not understand the difference between purchase price and net income. Or Joe did understand, and lied.
bith
Posted October 16, 2008 at 1:44 pm | Permalink
“The majority of Americans will either not vote, or vote third party.”
I htink the usual result is about 50% turnout. Third party – about 2-3% this year.
———————————————–
They are expecting a record 30% turnout.
Bill Clinton ‘92 won by got 43% of the vote.
220,000,000 voter age people.(rough)
105,000,000 registered. (rough)
105,000,000 x .43 = 45,150,000
Bill Clinton won by a landslide with 20% of the voting age populations vote.
(actually it was closer to 18%)
cosmos- Laziness and failing ones civic duty isn’t “funny”.
————————————–
We agree on something.
I think it should be mandatory to vote.
But I also think, if you get a check with the US Government on it, (other than a refund or social security) you only get 1/2 of a vote.
That goes for ALL government employees AND recipients of social programs.
“biased1
…But I also think, if you get a check with the US Government on it, (other than a refund or social security) you only get 1/2 of a vote.
That goes for ALL government employees AND recipients of social programs.”
I hope you are joking there.
It would be quite ignorant to seriously propose something like that
Go get’m Libs! Attack that dastardly Joe the Plumber! Obama must be elected.
All those who ask questions to Obama must have their character assasinated.
It tells me a bunch about those people who think Palin is ready / qualified for national office.
As for Joe the plumber from Ohio — he has worked, if what the campaign wants is to deflect attention from the issues. And, isn’t that what they said they needed to do? Again, it tells me a bunch about McCain’s judgment.
McCain doesn’t vet anyone,
has zero confidence in Americans ability to think (when in fact the majority of us have proven to be more critical thinkers than he),
can’t run on the issues,
can’t decide or remember what his campaign strategy is,
doesn’t seem to be able to control his own campaign,
treats females with disdain (look at how he has used Palin),
admits he doesn’t know enough about the economy,
makes being reckless something he feels pride in (how many planes did he crash?),
thinks the tragedy of being a prisoner of war somehow makes him qualified for POTUS,
knows how to do everything but keeps that knowledge secret and then expects anyone to believe he puts America first.
He proves himself to be incompetent.
biased1 posted October 16, 2008 at 2:39 pm
But I also think, if you get a check with the US Government on it, (other than a refund or social security) you only get 1/2 of a vote.
That goes for ALL government employees AND recipients of social programs.
——–
Let’s give a 1/2 vote to all people who benefit from the US Government — drive on a road funded with federal taxes, get help during a natural disaster, have safer food and air travel, etc. /sarcasm off
“They are expecting a record 30% turnout.”
That would be a record LOW:
“However, in 2004, the presidential election turnout was up to 56.70% of all US citizens old enough to vote.[1] ”
1992 turnout about 55%.
http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2004/federalelections2004.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout
RFL
Posted October 16, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink
Go get’m Libs! Attack that dastardly Joe the Plumber! Obama must be elected.
All those who ask questions to Obama must have their character assasinated.
If the truth is an attack then too damn bad.
RFL,
Go vote for McCain, because Obama’s tax plan would HELP Joe the plumber.
I think Obama blew it when he speaks out of both sides on his mouth on just about every issue.
He opposes Tax Cuts except when he is running for President.
He opposes accepting public financing except when he has millions more to spend than McCain.
He opposes partial birth abortion except when it comes time to vote against it.
He opposes defeating Al Qeada except for those that are fighting in Afganistan and all the areas besides Iraq.
He opposes the waste from Nuclear power but loves the CO2 free power that it produces.
He opposes foriegn oil except when it means having to drill domestically.
He opposes free trade but claims to be the one to heal relations with other countries.
He opposes gridlock between democrats and republicans except when the republicans are in the majority.
biased1 posted October 16, 2008 at 2:39 pm
But I also think, if you get a check with the US Government on it, (other than a refund or social security) you only get 1/2 of a vote.
That goes for ALL government employees AND recipients of social programs.
Does that include employees of Blackwater, Boeing, Halliburton, etc?
“Does that include employees of Blackwater, Boeing, Halliburton, etc?”
Military?
FBI, CIA?
“Go vote for McCain, because Obama’s tax plan would HELP Joe the plumber”
Wrong. Higher taxes help nobody. Jobs help everybody.
Obama’s tax plan aims to take more money out of the economy by disproportionaly taxing the rich.
“Go vote for McCain, because Obama’s tax plan would HELP Joe the plumber”
Wrong. Higher taxes help nobody. Jobs help everybody.
Obama’s tax plan aims to take more money out of the economy by disproportionaly taxing the rich.
Here’s the folks McCain does well with, blatantly open racists.
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/mccainpalin-supporters-let-their-rac
But some say that they aren’t racist when they put out racist flyers like this:
http://www.pe.com/politics/dearmond/stories/PE_News_Local_S_buck16.3d67d4a.html
because they supported Alan Keyes. Lovely to know the true base of the Republicans racist and religious.
How do higher deficits help?
That goes for ALL government employees AND recipients of social programs.
Postal Workers?
Senators?
Representatives?
Presidents?
And are we only talking Federal Government? Or does it include State and Local Governments, too? Mayors? City Councilmen/women?
Are you ready for a list of the Social Program recipients, too? Would that include Wall Street now?
Obama’s tax plan aims to take more money out of the economy by disproportionaly taxing the rich.
Disproportionaly? I’d like some of those loop holes the rich get to use.
RFL,
Go vote for McCain, because he LIED (or was CLUELESS) about Joe the plumber’s situation.
MCCAIN: Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years, worked 10, 12 hours a day. And he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes.
You were going to put him in a higher tax bracket which was going to increase his taxes, which was going to cause him not to be able to employ people, which Joe was trying to realize the American dream.
——————
‘McCain Used Joe Wurzelbacher to Depict His Tax Plan; Ironically He Is in Line for Obama’s Tax Plan’
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/Story?id=6047360&page=2
“Wurzelbacher conceded today that he is not in danger of being hit with the higher tax rate. He acknowledged that he wants to buy a plumbing company for $250,000 to $280,000. That wouldn’t be how much profit he would make from the firm.
He would make much less, he said.
That would seem to indicate that Wurzelbacher would not be subject to Obama’s proposed tax increase from 36 percent to 39 percent for those making more than $250,000 per family. Instead, he would be eligible for a tax cut that Obama is proposing.”
What’s with this Joe the Plumber guy? Apparently he doesn’t have a plumbing license and he’s a tax cheat. Sounds like he’s a paid political shill.
The conservatives are being urged to conserve gas and stay home Nov. 4. That won’t happen in Wichita, however, because they’ll have to come out to vote against the school bond.
That goes for ALL government employees AND recipients of social programs.
————-
Federally funded research, at universities and companies?
And NASA, NOAA, FEMA, FAA, FDA,. . .
“CNN is National. Wichita Eagle is, well, Wichita. I wouldn’t expect anything different from Wichita’s gun hugging God nuts.”
CNN is propoganda, not news reporting. And I believe there are plenty of good God fearing people here in Wichita that have enough common sense that they aren’t fooled by Obama’s smooth talk and phony plans.
Concerning Joe Plumber, prices must really be down if you can buy into a plumbing business for less than $250,000. If he wasn’t netting at least a quarter mil annually, why bother?
ALL people that get a check with USA printed on it.
ALLLLLLL….
yes
yes
yes
yes
Put the power BACK into the private sector.
Less Government power.
Tell me, at work, do you get to vote on your own raises, never have your health care messed with, have a GARUANTEED retirement?
didn’t think so.
But if you could, would you?
you betchya!
I would guess the business is netting about 50K/year. A valuation of about 5X net sounds about right.
I do not want to see any dem elected. Obama is communist linging and like all libs wants to raise our taxes.
I’m very glad to hear that george!
:)
RFL,
I forgot to add that I think the word you were looking for was “disproportionately”.
You want federal money? You and all your employees get 1/2 vote.
That way the people that are actually supplying the $$$$ get MORE say on how it is spent.
linging?
linging- adj. having a purple discoloration about the mouth and lips.
“It must be -40 out, my mouth is linging….
“Predestined
Posted October 16, 2008 at 3:37 pm | Permalink
linging?”
Yes, George’s middle name is “dinga”
I wasn’t going to ask as I figured “linging” made as much sense as the other words in the post.
Maybe he’s calling Obama a panda?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ling_Ling_(panda)
Or a cartoon character?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ling-Ling
“linging”
what the chinese railroad workers’ ears were doing after he stood too close to the dynamite blast.
Ah, here we go–it sounds a lot like the post!:
1. Linging shots 4 thumbs up
1. Firing a hand-gun wildly at a general or specific target. 2.Sometimes known as throwing punches or strikes wildly at somebody’s face. 3. Shooting game at a fine piece of ass.
I’m gonna go to the mall and start linging shots at e’rrbudy
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Linging%20shots
“linging”
A new type of Chinese tinnititis?
There’s my problem. I didn’t check the urban dictionary. Then again, it still doesn’t make sense in the context originally used by george. Maybe I’m still missing something. Or is he shooting communists?
“Go vote for McCain, because he LIED (or was CLUELESS) about Joe the plumber’s situation.”
Cosmos is so well acquainted with Joe the Plumber now. McCain should set up an appointment with the IRS (or consulted Cosmos) to know exactly Joe the Plumber’s financial situation before using him as a hypothetical small business owner in America.
Wait a sec. This sounds better!
McCain knows everthing (he is omniscient) and he was hiding the fact that Joe the Plumber really doesn’t make that much.
Does McCain know what you are thinking right now, Cosmos? McCain knows everthing!
You got it Cosmos. It’s either one or the other.
My apologies. I was completely braindead this morning. I hadn’t had my cup of joe yet. Sorry.
My percentage of voters was still correct in terms of dem and rep. 30% of eligible voters will vote for one of the two parties. That still leaves 70% of eligible voters who will not vote or choose a third party.
I think they need to mobilize and fight the duopoly.
Please do not think that I thought it was “funny” that only 30% of voters decide the direction for everyone else. It was really just food for thought.
The last few weeks have re-enforced the argument that there is no difference between dems and reps. Both presidential candidates supported the bailout. It really is sad to see our debates too. I have to turn the channel after a couple of minutes.
What happened to our Constitutional Republic?
When did Free-Markets and Capitalism get replaced with centrally planned economy and socialism?
Keep fighting folks.
RFL,
Who was McCain’s source for the claim that he made on national TV?
MCCAIN: Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years, worked 10, 12 hours a day. And he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes.
You were going to put him in a higher tax bracket which was going to increase his taxes, which was going to cause him not to be able to employ people, which Joe was trying to realize the American dream.
RFL
Posted October 16, 2008 at 3:06 pm | Permalink
“Go vote for McCain, because Obama’s tax plan would HELP Joe the plumber”
Wrong. Higher taxes help nobody. Jobs help everybody.
Obama’s tax plan aims to take more money out of the economy by disproportionaly taxing the rich.
—
Disproportionally taxing the rich? Hey – they are the ones that have had the Bush tax cuts – remember?
I find it ironic that Republicans don’t like socialism until it benefits their own nest. I’ve learned to never get in the way of a Republican when they get their turn at the government trough – they eat their young for that last dime!
george
Posted October 16, 2008 at 3:32 pm | Permalink
I do not want to see any dem elected. Obama is communist linging and like all libs wants to raise our taxes.
__
And all Republicans want to do is to lower their taxes and raise the taxes on the middle class. Does that about cover it?
Liberal Democrats favor Socialism and Neo-Con Republicans favor Fascism.
Both love the money pouring into the government though. Remember that.
mom
Posted October 16, 2008 at 4:26 pm | Permalink
george
Posted October 16, 2008 at 3:32 pm | Permalink
I do not want to see any dem elected. Obama is communist linging and like all libs wants to raise our taxes.
__
And all Republicans want to do is to lower their taxes and raise the taxes on the middle class. Does that about cover it?
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Almost … add
Borrow money and leave the bill for future generatons.
Then complain when the bill has to be paid.
“My percentage of voters was still correct in terms of dem and rep. 30% of eligible voters will vote for one of the two parties. That still leaves 70% of eligible voters who will not vote or choose a third party.”
No, you are still WRONG. About 60% will vote for one of the two and 40% will not vote or vote third-party.
bth
Posted October 16, 2008 at 4:36 pm | Permalink
“My percentage of voters was still correct in terms of dem and rep. 30% of eligible voters will vote for one of the two parties. That still leaves 70% of eligible voters who will not vote or choose a third party.”
No, you are still WRONG. About 60% will vote for one of the two and 40% will not vote or vote third-party.
___________________________________________
Ahh, lest you forget those eligible who won’t vote or even register to vote.
“george
Posted October 16, 2008 at 3:32 pm | Permalink
I do not want to see any dem elected. Obama is communist linging and like all libs wants to raise our taxes.”
george you sure are a cunning linguist
GALLUP’s ‘traditional’ likely voter model shows Obama with a two-point advantage over McCain on Thursday, 49% to 47%, this is within poll’s margin of error… Developing…
“a cunning linguist”
I caught that. :-)
Someday, hopefully there will be a viable third-party candidate for independants (and moderate republicans and democrats) to vote for.
Obamanation lied through his teeth in the third presidential debate Wednesday, again denying that he deliberately killed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act, even after an abortion neutrality clause was added, and falsely claiming that another state law would require medical care for babies born alive during botched late-term abortions. This unenforceable Illinois abortion law to this day only protects abortion survivors if their abortionist quack deems them fit and highly likely to survive. No greedy abortionist quack is going to predict long-term survival for a baby born during his abortion, and risk losing his fee because the baby lived. Obamanation also opposed requiring a second quack to independently assess the viability of abortion survivors. Unquestionably, Obamanation adamantly refused to consider required medical care for living, breathing babies born during abortions, if they were not expected to live very long, meaning they should be tossed into a closet to die alone and untouched, if unwanted. Obamanation refused to considered such living babies as human, calling them “previable fetuses.” Treatment and comfort would be far too much trouble for a baby living only 3 or 4 hours. We may well suppose his same ruthless lack of regard for any viable babies born during abortions.
Obamanation also falsely claimed he would support a partial birth abortion ban if only a health exception were included, but his health exception would be so broad as to nullify a ban.
Obamanation lied in claiming he would not apply a pro-abortion litmus test in appointing federal judges. He has openly promised the abortion industry never to appoint any federal judges who is not pro-abortion, and his votes against Judges Alito and Roberts confirm that.
Obamanation lied about his connection with ACORN vote fraudsters, too. He’s in thick with them.
I have to pay taxes regardless of who is in power and at least with Obama, my taxes will go to Americans and not towards lining Halliburton and Blackwater’s pockets for the wars McCain wants to start and keep going for 100 years.
And I still have not figured out how many American businesses have relocated to Ireland for their low business tax rate. This is the second time McCain has brought up this Ireland thing. Exactly how many American companies have set up shop in Ireland? I didn’t know that was such a big problem – did you?
“Ahh, lest you forget those eligible who won’t vote or even register to vote.”
NO – I’m counting them as well.
parkay – John McCain also praised ACORN at a conference – is he in thick with them too?
A_E – try to pay attention:
“Sixty-four percent of U.S. citizens age 18 and over voted in the 2004 presidential election, up from 60 percent in 2000, the U.S. Census Bureau reported today.”
Note that it says “US citizens age 18 and up” not “those who showed up.” In other words – 64% OF VOTING-AGE CITIZENS VOTED!
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/voting/004986.html
“parkay
Posted October 16, 2008 at 5:05 pm”
Nutjob!!!
An expression of lust or disgust? You decide.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jsoverman/McLickin.jpg
I thought this was worth repeating…
A question of perspective
Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin, what if things were switched around?….. think about it.
Would the country’s collective point of view be different? Could racism be the culprit?
Ponder the following:
What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including a three month old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?
What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?
What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class?
What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?
What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his standards?
What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?
What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?
What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?
What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?
(The Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s.)
What if McCain was a charismatic, eloquent speaker?
What if Obama couldn’t read from a teleprompter?
What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?
What if Obama was the one who was known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?
What if Michelle Obama’s family had made their money from beer distribution?
What if the Obamas had adopted a white child?
You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected reality, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?
This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another when there is a color difference.
Educational Background:
Barack Obama:
Columbia University – B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations.
Harvard – Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude
Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware – B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law – Juris Doctor (J.D.)
vs.
John McCain:
United States Naval Academy – Class rank: 894 of 899
Sarah Palin:
Hawaii Pacific University – 1 semester
North Idaho College – 2 semesters – general study
University of Idaho – 2 semesters – journalism
Matanuska-Susitna College – 1 semester
University of Idaho – 3 semesters – B.A.in Journalism
Education isn’t everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing in the world. You make the call.
Interesting points, Mary.
Harry Truman, farmer and livestock breeder.
Graduate of High School (no college degree)
I found it interesting tonight that Fox (faux) News is reporting that Obama and McCain are neck to neck in the polls after last night’s debate…How can that be when McCain acted like his usual abrasive self with all the same tired attempts at character asassination against Obama? He couldn’t stick to the issues if his life depended on it.
So he’s going to “bring change” to Washington? How is giving even more tax breaks to major corporations who choose to take their business overseas supposed to help people like “Joe the plumber”? How is giving a $5,000 tax credit per family going to realistically help people to pay for their own medical insurance? And what about those who can’t get insurance at all due to pre existing conditions? He doesn’t even have a plan for them. His attitude toward other countries is the same as Bush’s “my way or the highway” attitude that has alienated even our best allies.
And, by the way he has no intention of appointing a supreme court justice according to their views on abortion…basically telling all the pro-life folks that he plans to do absolutly nothing to overturn Roe vs Wade…so Catholics and others who are voting solely on that issue shouldn’t count on him either…please, don’t waste your vote guys.
He’s so out of touch with the real problems in this country…only a moron would support him and his hockey mom, who in the words of Trudy Rubin is “woefully unqualified”.
Reg, the world has changed a little since the days of Truman…I’d rather have an intelligent and educated person as the leader of the free world.
So Mary, you’ll be voting for Obama then?
The pro-abortion candidate?
Will you be wasting your vote?
Mary_Caruso
Posted October 16, 2008 at 7:54 pm | Permalink
Reg, the world has changed a little since the days of Truman…I’d rather have an intelligent and educated person as the leader of the free world.
———————————-
No offense to lawyers, but lawyers aren’t educated, they are indoctrinated to a philosophy governed by governmental rules.
Both Obama and Biden are lawyers.
I’d say that graduating from Harvard at the top of his class qualifies Obama as being “educated”…and I’m not voting by my feelings about abortion, because that’s a lost cause in this country. I’m voting on the issues that affect all of us…the economy, healthcare, and the war on terror.
Obama is on the right track with the direction America needs to go. McCain doesn’t seem to really understand the issues that affect everyday people like “Joe the plumber”..what a laugh..and what’s sad is that there are those ignorant fools who fall for that sort of political pandering.
Mary_Caruso
Posted October 16, 2008 at 8:06 pm | Permalink
I’d say that graduating from Harvard at the top of his class qualifies Obama as being “educated”…and I’m not voting by my feelings about abortion, because that’s a lost cause in this country. I’m voting on the issues that affect all of us…the economy, healthcare, and the war on terror.
===============================
Then why did you bring up abortion on the McCain campaign?
Just admit it, you’re a Democrat, hard core and wouldn’t vote any other way.
The truth will set you free.
The big difference between McCain and Obama is that Obama is intelligent…his education is just frosting on the cake. Obama has the better character, he has more common sense, and he has the potential to be a great leader because he’s a quick study and he has the right attitude.
“Then why did you bring up abortion on the McCain campaign?”
OK, I’ll repeat myself just for you, Reg. There are those who will vote solely on the abortion issue…I know many of them. McCain isn’t willing to appoint a supreme court justice according to their views on abortion…in other words…he will make no attempt to overturn Roe vs Wade. So if someone is voting for him simply because he is pro life…they’re wasting their vote.
We need to elect someone who has a realistic and workable plan to turn our country around…and Mccain isn’t “that one”.
And yes, I’m a Democrat and proud of it…so what?
I’m a Democrat, but I have voted for Republicans in the past and will again. In fact one of my favorite senators happens to be a Republican…Jean Shodorf…she has my vote as long as she want’s the job!
“The truth will set you free.”
You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the ass, Reg :)
“The big difference between McCain and Obama is that Obama is intelligent…his education is just frosting on the cake. Obama has the better character, he has more common sense, and he has the potential to be a great leader because he’s a quick study and he has the right attitude.”
—-
Very well said, Mary. Critical thinking consists of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation, and that describes Senator Obama. He is also an exemplary leader. One only need to look at the campaign he has run to see evidence of his leadership. You’re right about the attitude too! When he speaks to Americans whether it be in person or in a speech he treats us with respect and doesn’t “talk down” to us. He gives us the credit for being intelligent adults capable of understanding.
You’re so right, Linda. When McCain talks to the public, it’s as though he thinks the audience is retarded or something. He dumbs it down so the “ordinary folks” can understand. He talks like he’s trying to reassure a child. But he’s never been “ordinary”, so he must have a hard time relating to the rest of us.
I guess Reg has left the room..:)
Whoever posted the video of McCain’s latest ad, thank you. (Steven, was that you? Or Rage, maybe?)
What I started to post after I watched it hours ago was that it sounded like he was talking to four-year-olds.
So, Mary, I agree 100% with you, on that and on intelligence. I expect Obama to surround himself with the best advisors. I don’t think I’ll be disappointed.
“I expect Obama to surround himself with the best advisors. I don’t think I’ll be disappointed.”
And whatever bad things the righties might say about Biden Obama showed that he wants people around him who will disagree with and challenge him. A refreshing change from 8 years of yes-men groupthink.
He has adopted the same philosophy of Abe Lincoln. Lincon gave political positions to many of his opponents so he could get all perspectives on an issue.
That’s true wisdom…something we haven’t seen in the past 8 years of “my way or the highway” Bush who only surrounded himself with those who say what he wanted to hear.
Ben posted,
And whatever bad things the righties might say about Biden Obama showed that he wants people around him who will disagree with and challenge him. A refreshing change from 8 years of yes-men groupthink.
———-
Biden has also worked with many people on both sides of Congress, which could be helpful.
And Obama has shown that he’s curious. He seems to try to look at the viable solutions to a problem, weigh the + and – consequences of each solution, and then try to select the best choice.
That’s the way important decisions should be made.
Yes. Marvin spun about nothing, that had a rotten place, medical vaginal torture that at a.