Joe the Plumber, aka Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, may be sorry he ever approached Barack Obama during a campaign visit to his Holland, Ohio, neighborhood last week to talk about taxes. But he’s been a dream for campaign comedy. A sample:
“Do you know the saddest part about the Joe the Plumber story? Last month, he was an investment banker.” – Jay Leno
“Joe the plumber has become quite the celebrity. After the debate, he was rushed to Washington to unclog the valve on Dick Cheney.” – David Letterman
“Turns out Joe the Plumber, his name is not Joe and he is not a licensed plumber and he owes back taxes. So it sounds like he has the best plan to reduce taxes – don’t pay them.” – Leno
“Everyone has Joe the Plumber fever. Even the Statue of Liberty was holding a plunger.” – Letterman
“A full 67 percent of Americans say they’ve seen enough and they don’t want any more presidential debates. The other 33 percent are plumbers who want to hear their name on television.” – Conan O’Brien
“Events are moving fast in my campaign, and, yes, it’s true that this morning I’ve dismissed my entire team of senior advisers. All of their positions will now be held by a man named Joe the Plumber.” – John McCain
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Channel surfing past faux news yesterday, one of their reich-wing pundits was bashing Obama for bringing up dirt on poor lil Joe. They obviously forgot it was McSame who brought up Joe in the first place. Talk about morons.
Now expect franklin to pop up and tell us Joe is really an agent of both ACORN and Ayers, wouldn’t know a pipe wrench from a screwdriver, and is a closet Liberal.
Did any of you catch one of his links? This is too good to pass up: http://www.verumserum.com/?p=2907 or, as the title says, Verum Serum
An eclectic Christian blog run by two guys from O.C.
Now I know if I ever want truthability and Christianized news, all I gotta do is go there. I mean, two guys, what else does one need?
THIS JUST IN: JOHN MCCAIN HAS JUST DUMPED SARAH PALIN AND NAMED JOE THE PLUMBER AS HIS RUNNING MATE. WHEN ASKED BY FAUX NEWS PUNDIT (SOMETHING) O’REILLY WHY. MCCAIN REPLIED, “PIPES, DUDE, IT’S ALL ABOUT THE PIPES.”
As I recall, President Nixon had plumbers too.
Why The Left Always Resorts To Brute Force
by Kevin McCullough
“After Barack Obama got rhetorically bludgeoned this week with the consequences of his own words to a working class guy from Toledo, the nation got a peek into his soul. It was not pretty and it should serve as a preview of what we can expect from Barack Obama.
Only two days later Obama, Biden, the DNC, and many in the mainstream leftist establishment (you call them the media) go wall to wall on the attack against… the man who asked the question, not the one who gave the answer.
Of course it was one of the worst answers ever given by any presidential candidate in history. I mean people in free countries generally decided a generation ago that when Government has sole discretion over the supply of money, where it goes, and who gets it (especially when disconnected from effort, work, or accomplishment) that the only ones who end up doing better are those running for office. If you get enough people so brain washed and brain dead that they “think” that they can live off the great government udder, then those who give access to such will enlarge their power, capital, and position.
These people are Marxists. Conversely if you empower people to provide, care, and steward themselves and their families – the need for government begins to fade. These two principles and world views will always be at war with each other on the fundamental basis: Marx says let the state provide for you, the Bible says if a man does not work–he should not eat.”
http://townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2008/10/19/why_the_left_always_resorts_to_brute_force
“Channel surfing past faux news yesterday,”
—-JMWalker
Yeah, right….”surfing past faux news”,
LIAR!!! What a joke….of a person!
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Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008 at 7:40 am | Permalink
“Channel surfing past faux news yesterday,”
—-JMWalker
Yeah, right….”surfing past faux news”,
LIAR!!! What a joke….of a person!
________________________________________________
The personal attacks start early this morning.
Fear, thy name is republican.
Not an unjustified personal attack at all….it’s a fact.
Nobody channel surfs passed a channel and just happens to get the whole story.
And then gets it completely wrong with his own made up scenarios.
As I said….he’s a liar.
The district court judge was in the middle of his morning shower when the water without warning went off.
Soap in his eyes he went to the basement to see what was the problem and found a water pipe had busted.
He went to the phone and calls a plumber and then waited for three hours till the plumber arrived.
It took the plumber all of twenty minutes to change out the pipe and the Judge asked how much he owed?
“It 400.00 dollars for the first hour”, said the plumber.
“OH MY, I am a District court Judge and I do not make $400 an hour!”, responded the Judge.
“ I know I use to be a District court Judge too.”.
“Ahhh whom do I make this check out to?”
“Make it out to “Joe the Plumber”.
Joe the Plumber IS the joke. McCain fell for him hook line and sinker. McCain once again proves he is unfit to be President unable to distinquish a con man from a regular “joe”.
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Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008 at 8:10 am | Permalink
Not an unjustified personal attack at all….it’s a fact.
Nobody channel surfs passed a channel and just happens to get the whole story.
And then gets it completely wrong with his own made up scenarios.
As I said….he’s a liar.
======================================================
Channel surfing is a major American pastime. That I saw a story on faux news, stopped and listened to the nonsense, hardly makes me a liar. But please, boxtop, inform me as to how I lied about the story I watched. I’m sure that if you have enough info to call me a liar, you would also be willing to put that info on the blog so as to prove me a liar.
ZzzZzzzZZzzzzZZzz…
Still waiting . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Mccain would like a person like Joe the Plumber, when he has his watergate.
Joe brought himself into this by MISrepresenting himself. McCain then used him further by repeating the lies Joe had already told about himself
— that is was / is a plumber
— that he planned to buy a plumbing company
— that the company makes over a quarter million a year
— that the company would pay more taxes under Obama’s tax plan
So, Joe tells ALL these lies, McCain repeats all these lies on national television in front of millions of Americans because McCain is so incompetent and removed from reality he can’t be bothered with truth.
Both Joe the wanna be plumber and McCain are jokes!
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Regular
Posted October 19, 2008 at 8:54 am | Permalink
ZzzZzzzZZzzzzZZzz…
_________________________________________________
As Usual, Regular is asleep at the switch….
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lindainks55
Posted October 19, 2008 at 9:41 am | Permalink
So, Joe tells ALL these lies, McCain repeats all these lies on national television in front of millions of Americans because McCain is so incompetent and removed from reality he can’t be bothered with truth.
Both Joe the wanna be plumber and McCain are jokes!
This goes to the heart of being a liberal democrat in America today.
You purposely defame, and tear apart anyone with an opposing view. Make fun?
That’s what the socially conscience party does.
Palin anyone?
The point being over looked is Obama’s answer.
“I just want to spread the wealth around if you make $250,000″.
Where does the constitution of the United States give the government the right to decide how much money one person should have or not have?
Will it be $150,000 next year?
If Obama believes that sharing ones wealth is good he should start at home. He does very little in charitable giving.
“blogmonitor” –
John S (for Senile) McCain the Third (for Shrub’s 3rd term) mentioned “Joe the Plumber” 21 times in 90 minutes.
And you CONs have your panties it a wad because someone paid attention?!
And the damnedest thing is “Joe the Plumber” appears to be more aware of the issues in this campaign than the Moose-Dresser.
“You purposely defame, and tear apart anyone with an opposing view. Make fun?”
—–
What Joe the wanna be plumber said about himself, and McCain repeated on national television WERE LIES! There was NO TRUTH in the words. They tear themselves apart, they defame their own credibility with their lies.
Then the messenger is attacked because the lies can’t be refuted. How’s that working out for you?
At the risk of offending Ben anyone who thinks the issue here is who Joe the plumber is just doesn’t get it. They are truly dim.
Obama made his true agenda known. He has been trying to kick it back under the rug ever since. Many Obama supporters didn’t know the extent of his deception and now do.
Socialism is alive and well in the Obama camp. But lets hang Joe the plumber while we try to pull the fleece down over the eyes of the truly dim who as Howard Stern showed us believe that Palin is Obama’s running mate, and they he is pro-life, and that he favors leaving the troops in Iraq. The democrat party has a real problem and it isn’t Joe.
Linda the truth – Obama said he wanted to spread the wealth around – take from the more affluent to give to the ‘poor’. This is the issue. Not Joe. Not whether he pays his taxes. NOt whether he is licensed. Not whether he will ever be able to buy his own business.
He will fade into the oblivion from which he came. His message will linger on. It could be decided in this election. Maybe not. It could be a reflection in years to come when we are paying much higher taxes and small businesses are failing. People will forget the plumbers name but they will remember Obama- the real issue.
For those interested in ALL the words said between Joe and Senator Obama, here they are in their entirety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA
Plumbers are among the finest people on earth. I was proud to receive my Juris Doctor in 2002 but had already decided I could not financially afford to leave plumbing to practice law. There is also more crud in law than in plumbing.
Joe said while speaking with Senator Obama and McCain repeated on national television in front of millions of viewers:
— that is was / is a plumber
— that he planned to buy a plumbing company
— that the company makes over a quarter million a year
— that the company would pay more taxes under Obama’s tax plan
When you listen to ALL the words said between Joe and Senator Obama you will find the truth.
Or you can continue to use the parts of the words you choose, but being fully informed is more honest.
“okobserver” gets up on her hind legs and barks –
“… Socialism is alive and well…”
We’ve just had a Republic Party president inject $100 Billion into the nation’s banking system
That’s about as “socialist” as it gets. Except it isn’t “share the wealth” as much as it’s share the pain of the natural and logical consequences of unfettered hedge funds, stock speculators, coupon-clippers, and market manipulators and their unmitigated greed.
Linda Joe isn’t running for office. I will give you that he wasn’t entirely honest. What the democrats are missing here is that he was trying to get Obamas message about spreading the wealth out. Obama hasn’t been entirely honest about that either. He throws out that 95% figure a lot. What he doesn’t say his that 47% of Americans pay no taxes at all. If he lowers their taxes anymore we will be sending them a check every January like we do now with the EIC.
The message that got out shows this inconsistency. Joe isn’t the issue here Obama is. If this is indeed his plan then it should get out to the voters so than can make an informed decision.
Joe was the catylist and Obama made the statement in question. He does want to spread the wealth. Take from the rich to give to the poor. If that is his plan then the voters need to know that. Then if they vote him in at least they can’t say they didn’t know.
Monkey your colorful words don’t address the real issues as usual. Bush is done, on his way back to the ranch in a few short weeks. Are we going to spend the next 4 years blaming the previous administration or will Obama or McCain actually have a plan to revitalize the economy, keep our national security strong, help those who deserve it to stay in their homes.
In a few short weeks we will make one of the most important decision in our lifetime. Like no other election I can remember this will speak to the direction we want our nation to go in.
We can throw barbs at each other as I do with the dim tag or we can bridge our differences and work for the common good of the nation. I am as guilty as the next person with the personal attacks. I will make a pledge to stop today and we can discuss the issues. We have plenty of differences here and maybe we both have some good thoughts on how to salvage this great nation.
okobserver
Posted October 19, 2008 at 10:52 am | Permalink
Monkey your colorful words don’t address the real issues as usual. Bush is done, on his way back to the ranch in a few short weeks. Are we going to spend the next 4 years blaming the previous administration or will Obama or McCain actually have a plan to revitalize the economy, keep our national security strong, help those who deserve it to stay in their homes.
In a few short weeks we will make one of the most important decision in our lifetime. Like no other election I can remember this will speak to the direction we want our nation to go in.
We can throw barbs at each other as I do with the dim tag or we can bridge our differences and work for the common good of the nation. I am as guilty as the next person with the personal attacks. I will make a pledge to stop today and we can discuss the issues. We have plenty of differences here and maybe we both have some good thoughts on how to salvage this great nation.
————————————————–
Great post I will join the pledge. If we don’t work together we are through as a nation
Just which of my words were “colorful?”
okobserver posted October 19, 2008 at 10:46 am
Take from the rich to give to the poor.
—————
FALSE. it’s take a little more from those who make >$250,000 (family) by rolling back their tax cuts to the 1990’s levels.
And take a little less from taxpayers earning < $250,000 by lowering their tax rates.
Grow the economy from the bottom upwards.
He aint “Joe the plumber” because he isn’t a plumber.
What he IS is a working class white guy who votes for Republicans because someday he imagines he will be able to live like one. HE’LL be rich. HE’LL own the business. HE’LL be the boss.
Someday. Not today or tomorrow, but someday. Until then, he will eagerly vote against his OWN best interest. Cons have won for YEARS on the backs of such cannon foddder. Call him Joe the dumber.
As “cosmos_originally notes –
The so-called tax-”increase” is simply part of the law promised us back when the Republic Party dominated Congress and the White House.
They specifically said the so-called Bush tax cuts were necessary to stimulate the economy post 9/11. And the Democrats responded in bi-partisan fashion to the Republic Party proposal to cut taxes temporarily.
Congress doesn’t need to do anything to restore marginal tax rates to Clinton-era levels. It’s black-letter law, as the Republic Party Congress promised in 2001, that the Bush tax “cuts” sunset in 2009. That’s what Bush and the Republic Party promised.
Unless, of course, they were lying.
Speaking of jokes, Sarah Palin was not much funny on SNL last night. Teaming her with Alec Baldwin was quite an insult to her. Apparently she didn’t know who he was or she should never have done it.
BlueJay
Posted October 19, 2008 at 11:05 am | Permalink
He aint “Joe the plumber” because he isn’t a plumber.
What he IS is a working class white guy who votes for Republicans because someday he imagines he will be able to live like one. HE’LL be rich. HE’LL own the business. HE’LL be the boss.
Someday. Not today or tomorrow, but someday. Until then, he will eagerly vote against his OWN best interest. Cons have won for YEARS on the backs of such cannon foddder. Call him Joe the dumber.
—
That’s exactly correct. And Joe is cannon fodder, especially in the economic tsunami that’s just over the horizon for us all.
Eager and willing cannon fodder, I might add.
Fine, forget Joe the Plumber, let’s change it to Tom Brokaw who asked the question at a debate? “Senator Obama, hypothetical question, I’m a plumber, I want to buy a plumbing business…
What does it matter WHO asked the question, the truth is in the ANSWER. IF you succeed, which I believe the American Dream is, YOU will be penalized by obama. These are the words out of his own mouth.
BlueJay,
It’s been reported that ‘Joe’ earned about $40,000 in 2006.
Assuming 2006 was a typical year for ‘Joe’, consider ‘Joe’s’ claim to Obama that the two-person business (’Joe’ and owner) has earnings of up to $280,000.
$40k versus $280k?
The owner is making a HUGE profit from hard-working, 10+ hours a day ‘Joe’.
(Excuse me for not correcting ‘Joe’s’ very inflated $280,000 company earnings — McCain doesn’t tell the truth, so why should I?)
Boxlock posted October 19, 2008 at 7:37 am
“After Barack Obama got rhetorically bludgeoned this week with the consequences of his own words to a working class guy from Toledo…”
————
generaston posted October 19, 2008 at 11:26 am
Fine, forget Joe the Plumber, let’s change it to Tom Brokaw who asked the question at a debate? “Senator Obama, hypothetical question, I’m a plumber, I want to buy a plumbing business…
What does it matter WHO asked the question, the truth is in the ANSWER. IF you succeed, which I believe the American Dream is, YOU will be penalized by obama. These are the words out of his own mouth.
———–
You two obviously did not listen to all of Obama’s answer.
For example, note the man behind ‘Joe the plumber’(sic) nodding approval at Obama’s point re capital gains, near the end of video.
‘Obama Explains His Tax Cut Plans To Plumbing Business Owner’[sic]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA
I’m not sure that Joe was intentionally being dishonest. We have people that do plumbing work that call themselves plumbers even though they aren’t licensed or trained. They’ll tell customers licensing and insurance isn’t necessary and just adds to their cost. And they both believe that.
Also some don’t realize the difference between net and gross and that buying a company takes money.
The answer is still the same. IF you succeed you will be penalized by higher taxes. You can’t nod your head or close one ear to hear something different.
Monkey I think the color I referred was when I pictured me up on my hind legs barking.
The main joke about ‘Joe the plumber’(sic) is that he is supposed to represent a humanized, real-world example of how Obama’s policies would hurt small businesses.
‘Joe’ (and McCain) completely failed to do that.
The bigger joke is the Americans who are very gullible, and believe ‘Joe’, and McCain.
JMWalker says he was just “Channel surfing past faux news”, yet he gets the whole story.
No, not channel surfing…..watching, just to partisan to admit it.
As I said….a liar.
LonnythePlumber Posted October 19, 2008 at 11:52 am
“I’m not sure that Joe was intentionally being dishonest. We have people that do plumbing work that call themselves plumbers even though they aren’t licensed or trained. They’ll tell customers licensing and insurance isn’t necessary and just adds to their cost. And they both believe that.”
Exactly, I have done some of my own plumbing because of the cost, even some that might have called for an inspection even though it was simple.
I have known plumbers that I suspect did not report their work because of the added cost. I also know some folks that have worked for the city, and some that worked in remodeling, and and have admitted putting in a whole finished basements including electrical wiring and plumbing and didn’t report it to either central inspection or the assessor…..just imagine that.
If ‘Joe’ says he’s a plumber who is someone else telling him he isn’t, and besides he works for someone with a license who could over see the work.
The point is and remains, if a man gets ahead, on his own, Obama still wants to take what the man earned and give it to someone else….to buy votes from the lazy and incompetent.
‘I’m Not A Plumber, But I Play One On TV‘
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2008/10/im_not_a_plumbe.html
But even that’s not true, according to the Toledo Division of Building Inspection. Wurzelbacher can’t legally do plumbing work without a license, regardless of his boss’s certification.
A staff person with the Toledo Division of Building Inspection told On Call this afternoon that her division will contact Wurzelbacher to notify him that he can’t work without a license.
“We’re trying to track him down,” she said.
…
According to Joseph, Newell Plumbing & Heating is far from a $250K-a-year operation. Newell is running “a two-man shop,” he said. “This is not a thriving business.”
Isn’t there a chance it could be worth $250K? “Oh, God no,” Joseph said. “Maybe if he sells him the house, the garage.” He explained that the address for the business “is where the man lives at.”
“The real Joe Plumbers are for Barack,” Joseph added.
‘“The real Joe Plumbers are for Barack,” Joseph added.’
Just what the eightch eee double hockey sticks have the real Joe Plumbers got against bein’ cannon fodder?!? Huh? Why can’t they suck it up and pay more in taxes so the rich can pay less just like everybody else?!?
Commie bastids! /tongue in cheek
Boxlock posted October 19, 2008 at 12:49 pm
The point is and remains, if a man gets ahead, on his own, Obama still wants to take what the man earned and give it to someone else….to buy votes from the lazy and incompetent.
———-
FALSE. It’s take a little more from those with > $250k (family) (same tax rates as 1990’s) and take a little less from those under $250k.
And thank you for showing your true attitude, by calling hard-working waitresses, bus-drivers, etc “lazy and incompetent”.
I wasnt aware that 40,000,000 people make up 47% of Americcans…. See, 40,000,000 is the approx. number of people who pay NO taxes..
So, that lame line can be taken out of the tired old argument… As for spreading the wealth, we are already doing that…. THAT is known as Income taxes…. THAT is known also as Property taxes… and PERSONAL property taxes… and Sales Tax… and Fed. Excise Tax… and all of the other Taxes…. ALL of the taxes spread the wealth around to take care of ENORMOUS needs of ALL kinds of people… from the bottom of the “have nots” to the very TOP of the “haves”.
If people would just read ALL of what Obama told Joe the Plumber, instead of the Right Wing talking points(badf editing even) then we would ALL know that what Obama told good ol’ Joe the exact truth!!
Obama says that 95% of ALL taxpayers make less than $250,000…. Where is the “lie” in that?? That means that a very small percentage of the population makes more than $250,000….
What is wrong with the context of those making the HIGHEST incomes pay the most in taxes?? It’s not like those making less than $250,000 dont pay ANY taxes… because they DO… all except that 40,000,000 who dont qualify to pay taxes…
I fail to see what is wrong with any of that!! Actually, its called the 16th Amendment to the Constitution…
Air Base at Abilene, TX, is the first military base in the USA to be 100% powered by WIND POWER… Guess its good enough for the government… but not for the rest of us… Abilene also has the LARGEST wind farm in the entire USA very close to the city…
Wake up America!!
As for spreading the wealth, we are already doing that…. THAT is known as Income taxes…. THAT is known also as Property taxes… and PERSONAL property taxes… and Sales Tax… and Fed. Excise Tax… and all of the other Taxes…. ALL of the taxes spread the wealth around to take care of ENORMOUS needs of ALL kinds of people… from the bottom of the “have nots” to the very TOP of the “haves”.
———————-
Chas how is the above ’spreading the wealth’? When some pay nothing then your argument could be made but you shot that one down yourself. If we all pay the same percentage then fairness has been reached. When some or many pay nothing and a few pay a very large percentage then you are going quickly toward socialism. That process has never worked for a long period of time. Look back at civilizations that have failed. This process takes away the ambition of the workers to do better.
“And thank you for showing your true attitude, by calling hard-working waitresses, bus-drivers, etc “lazy and incompetent”.”
I never called anybody that. Only you did.
The highest income people do pay the most in taxes. In fact nearly 40%, actually more, pay almost nothing in taxes.
“41 percent of the U.S. population—will be completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006.1 This total includes those who pay no tax, and those who pay some tax upfront and are later refunded the full amount of the tax paid or more.”
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/1410.html
How’s this for fair, if everyone paid 20% of their gross income in taxes that would result in a guy that makes $40,000/yr. pay $8000 in taxes, the guy that makes $250000 pay $50,000 in taxes. Hum, the guy paying $50K is paying a lot more than the guy who’s paying $8K. Or do you not understand that?
Why should the guy paying $50,000/yr in taxes pay an even higher percentage in taxes, as the system is now and Obama wants to make more unfair. Why should he get penalized for doing well. How’s that fair?
Nobody should be getting a completely free ride let alone have money transferred from a producer to a non or lesser producer in income redistribution.
‘Joe The Plumber, Meet John Doe’
http://www.courant.com/news/local/columnists/hc-colin1019.artoct19-col,0,6280248.column
“Obama’s big mistake was to take Joe at his word and to think seriously about his question. Obama based his answer on the idea that Joe was in a position to buy a company that netted more than $250,000. That’s profit, not gross. So Obama assumed he was talking to a pretty well-off guy. Accordingly, he told Joe the country was better off if it “spread the wealth around,” meaning that rich guys have to pay a higher rate so that people on the lower rungs can get a little tax break.
Obamaphobes called that Socialism. In fact, it’s not new, it’s not socialism, and it’s profoundly American. Nobody believes this, but during World War II the top marginal tax rate (on income over $200,000) reached 94 percent! (This is probably what Joe Biden was fumbling to express when he said it’s “patriotic” for the rich to pay more taxes.) It dropped to 91 percent at the end of the war and stayed there — heedless of the impact inflation was having on $200,000 — until JFK pushed through tax cuts in 1962.
Wurzelbacher has, since then, admitted that his income is “not even close” to the levels where Obama’s taxes kick in and that he’s not really poised to buy the company.”
Okie, it wouldnt matter much WHAT I answer you with… I already spelled out the simplicity of it… But let me try….
The guy who drives a Mercedes Benz pays a whole lot more than I do… I drive a Chevy Metro…
The Meredes guy makes a whole lot more money than I do (typically)…. Which means he pays a whole lot more in personal property taxes… a lot more in gasoline taxes…. a whole lot more in SALES tax…
And, ultimately a whole lot more in income tax… WHY??? Because he makes a whole lot more INCOME than I do!!
It really is that simple…
Obama is looking at something like a 3% tax increase on those 5% making over $250,000…. What percentage of a tax cut did Bush make on the wealthiest??? I dont know the percentage, but somebody does….
The Bush tax cuts are to be sunset in 2009… If Obama doesnt extend those cuts, the income tax rate on the wealthiest will just go back UP… That was the way the LAW was written…. HOW is that an Obama inrease??? Hmmmm???
Boxy —-
$250,000 is a little more than SIX TIMES more that $40,000.
Using your 20% number…
The $250,000 taxpayer is left with $200,000
The $40,000 taxpayer is left with $32,000
AFTER taxes the higher income earner has nearly SEVEN TIMES as much income residue than the lower income earner…
In terms of realistic livable income, the guy making $40,000 has a WHOLE LOT less livable income AFTER 20% tax, than the guy making $250,000….
How can you POSSIBLY, in all honesty, sit there and claim that is fair???
Oh yea, the lower income earner would also be paying Soc. Sec. tax on ALL of his income… The higher income earner only on about half…
AFTER taxes the higher income earner has nearly SEVEN TIMES as much income residue than the lower income earner…
How can you POSSIBLY, in all honesty, sit there and claim that is fair???
Chas
Posted October 19, 2008 at 2:15 pm | Permalink
Oh yea, the lower income earner would also be paying Soc. Sec. tax on ALL of his income… The higher income earner only on about half…
——————
Chas the above posts reveal the agenda better than anything I can say. I agree that this is the agenda of Obama. I also agree that he wanted to keep this a closely guarded secret. He let the cat out of the bag when he talked to Joe the Plumber.
SS is a form of retirement income. Beyond a certain point the amounts deducted become outrageously above anything the recipient could ever hope to come close to recovering. Hence the phased out FICA tax over a certain dollar amount.
If this is the platform of the democrat party. Fine. Get behind it. Defend it but don’t deny it. It does have its roots in socialism. That is a fact.
Chas I could pick you up in the morning and take you to many homes where the residents have much less than you do. They don’t have a computer. Don’t have a tv with cable access.
Are you prepared to write them a check to equal your income with theirs. If not, why not?
Okob… Where in the HELL are you getting such an idea as this??
“Are you prepared to write them a check to equal your income with theirs. If not, why not?”
THAT is pure babbling nonsense!!!
NOBODY has suggested that ALL income levels are the same, or SHOULD BE!!! That is one of the stupidest LIES of the Right Wing!!
YOU KNOW that nobody has even come close to suggesting equal income for all!! Yet YOU and others like you keep making this stupid statement!!
BTW, such a stupid idea isnt a part of Socialism either!! There is a WIDE diversity of income levels in ANY Socialist country!! LOOK IT UP, and PLEASE stop LYING about it here!!!
PLEASE stio Lying!!!
Granny,
Taking from the rich and giving to the poor? Given that the last eight years of stealing from the poor and giving to the rich is what got us into the sub-prime morgage fraud crisis and the ensuing economic black hole we’re in, I’d say a little of that is only justice. I believe it was Balzac who said that behind every great fortune lies a great crime, so maybe some of those criminals need to make restitution. And maybe some of them could use a taste of what they inflicted on others!
okobserver
Posted October 19, 2008 at 2:31 pm | Permalink
Chas I could pick you up in the morning and take you to many homes where the residents have much less than you do. They don’t have a computer. Don’t have a tv with cable access.
==========================================
DAMN, girl, you like making a bunch of assumptions, eh??? You have NO CLUE what my present income is…. You have NO CLUE what I have or dont have in my house… I dont have much… I I dont even have to go one block, to see those with LESS….
okobserver,
Obama’s tax policy is based on multiple parts — such as targeted tax cuts and increases, tax credits, and changes in capital gains.
Post your proof that all of those parts working together would harm the U.S. economy. The example McCain is currently using, ‘Joe the faux plumber’ is based on multiple lies, and is invalid.
And prove that McCain’s economic policies would improve the U.S. economy better and faster than Obama’s policies.
I guess its like I said before….
We just got a bunch of “nattering nabobs of negativism” all hell bent for election, and spouting doom and gloom…
I dont understand it…. I see a petty good future for our nation… And because I do, I am constantly castigated for it on this poor excuse for a Blog….
I’m also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say.
And it is permitted to be said such things as, “Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.”
Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian.
He’s always been a Christian.
But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?
The answer’s no, that’s not America.
Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president?
Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, “He’s a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists.”
This is not the way we should be doing it in America.
“Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, “He’s a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists.”
This is not the way we should be doing it in America.”
–Colin Powell today
There is a cancer eating away at the GOP right now. It is a sick, sick, sick party. It is crazy, it is crazed with anger. You can see it here, with people who profess a Christian faith and nevertheless come here to express hatred, condescension, and rage, to say awful things about their own neighbors.
The last 3 presidential campaigns it has waged, especially the last two, have been pure exercises in taking the public conversation straight to the gutter and keeping it there.
The GOP has had nothing but vitriol to offer Americans for an awful long time now. I ain’t much of a praying man, but I admit that I do sometimes pray the GOP goes away, someplace far away, until it can heal. Maybe when, or if, it comes to its senses then it can come back to the political arena and do some good.
As it stands today, however, the GOP is doing more harm than good to the USA.
“mxyzptlk” –
Which pretty much crystallizes why General Powell could never have been the Republic Party’s nominee.
And it echoes what I’ve heard from a lot of traditional Republicans:
“I didn’t leave the party, the party left me.”
“Boxy —-
$250,000 is a little more than SIX TIMES more that $40,000.
Using your 20% number…
The $250,000 taxpayer is left with $200,000
The $40,000 taxpayer is left with $32,000
AFTER taxes the higher income earner has nearly SEVEN TIMES as much income residue than the lower income earner…
In terms of realistic livable income, the guy making $40,000 has a WHOLE LOT less livable income AFTER 20% tax, than the guy making $250,000….
How can you POSSIBLY, in all honesty, sit there and claim that is fair???”
————————————————
So what….that’s what both men earned, and they both payed the same percentage of their income in taxes.
You have no idea what risk each took, or how hard each worked for his income.
Who the hell are you, you communist, to decide what a man should earn, that one man earned too much and another not enough, that is none of your stinkin’ business.
If the guy earning $40K doesn’t like that income level he can work harder or at something else.
Examply….my son. He graduated with a degree in business, worked for several years but never could find something he really like or rewarded him financially, so he went back to school, graduated Dean’s Honor Roll with a degree in engineering and has distinguished himself to the point that he was sought out and given a 25% increase in salary to change employers. He worked for that life, and crap like you want to take that away. Well, if you get your way people will not make the effort or take the risk or go into dept to advance themselves and the entire country will end up populated with worthless trash like you Chas!!!
Maybe the guy that makes $250 also has $50 or $100K in school expenses to pay off. Maybe it took him eight years of medical school to get there.
You make me sick from your stench, I had no idea there was such socialist/communist trash in this country.
Oh, and just in case you missed my point….I say those things about you with all the sincerity I can express.
You make me sick, you diseased pile of warm dung.
Burn boxy burn!
The same applies to you BJ, you are just as, no, maybe more worthless.
Scum of the earth!
“with all the sincerity I can express.”
I’m bettin’ that well aint too deep. Probably pretty cheaply sold too.
Heh heh HEH!
BlueJay taunts…
“Yer gonnnnnaaaa loo oooose!
May well happen jerk, but I’ll wake up in the morning being me…..and not someone like you and that is enormously satisfying.
You will always be a nobody in dead end life and with very little, not because of me or anything else except you yourself.
Would it make you feel better if I came over and PERSONALLY took a whiz in your wheaties there boxy?
Heh heh HEH heh
heh heh HEH heh
Boxlock posted,
You make me sick from your stench, I had no idea there was such socialist/communist trash in this country.
…
Oh, and just in case you missed my point….I say those things about you with all the sincerity I can express.
You make me sick, you diseased pile of warm dung.
————-
If Boxlock gets that rabid about increasing the > $250k marginal from 36% to 39%, he’d would’ve had a massive stroke or something during WWII?
‘Joe The Plumber, Meet John Doe’
http://www.courant.com/news/local/columnists/hc-colin1019.artoct19-col,0,6280248.column
“Obamaphobes called that Socialism. In fact, it’s not new, it’s not socialism, and it’s profoundly American. Nobody believes this, but during World War II the top marginal tax rate (on income over $200,000) reached 94 percent! (This is probably what Joe Biden was fumbling to express when he said it’s “patriotic” for the rich to pay more taxes.) It dropped to 91 percent at the end of the war and stayed there — heedless of the impact inflation was having on $200,000 — until JFK pushed through tax cuts in 1962.”
BJ,
What’s it like knowing you are such a low achiever in the world, and that you will never amount to anything more that what was represented in your post(s) above.
I know it isn’t right but I am taking quite a bit of pleasure in knowing you are completely incapable of improving your lot in life simply because of your own choices.
Your choices have placed you where you are in the world (at the bottom of it) and your choices are keeping you there until the earth is free of your wasted space.
Boxlock,
He worked for that life, and crap like you want to take that away. Well, if you get your way people will not make the effort or take the risk or go into dept to advance themselves and the entire country will end up populated with worthless trash like you Chas!!!
————
‘Joe the faux plumber’ might be a better example for you, Boxlock.
He claims to have been a plumber for 15 years — but he still hasn’t even passed his apprenticeship.
And it’s been reported that ‘Joe’ only made $40k in 2006.
#
Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008 at 12:36 pm | Permalink
JMWalker says he was just “Channel surfing past faux news”, yet he gets the whole story.
No, not channel surfing…..watching, just to partisan to admit it.
As I said….a liar.
=========================================================
Obviously, boxboy has never surfed. But being a sheepdipper from Kansas, boxboy hasn’t done much of anything, except, well, break in cowboy boots with his favorite sheep.
But I guess if “catching a wave”, no matter how weak it was, prior or surfing on, makes me a liar in boxboy’s mini-mind, well I’ll wear the label proudly.
“until JFK pushed through tax cuts in 1962.”
He proposed tax cuts, he died before they were ever enacted in 1964, to stimulate the economy.
Which in fact it did!!!
Sticking with the issues…maybe Obama should heed the advice of JFK.
Note: The following quotes are published in the book, “The Interesting History of Income Tax,” by William J. Federer (Amerisearch, Inc., P.O. Box 20163, St. Louis, MO 63123, 1-888-USA-WORD)
“It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now … Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus.”
– John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, president’s news conference
——————————————————————————–
“Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 17, 1963, annual budget message to the Congress, fiscal year 1964
——————————————————————————–
“In today’s economy, fiscal prudence and responsibility call for tax reduction even if it temporarily enlarges the federal deficit – why reducing taxes is the best way open to us to increase revenues.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 21, 1963, annual message to the Congress: “The Economic Report Of The President”
——————————————————————————–
“It is no contradiction – the most important single thing we can do to stimulate investment in today’s economy is to raise consumption by major reduction of individual income tax rates.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 21, 1963, annual message to the Congress: “The Economic Report Of The President”
——————————————————————————–
“Our tax system still siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power and reduces the incentive for risk, investment and effort – thereby aborting our recoveries and stifling our national growth rate.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 24, 1963, message to Congress on tax reduction and reform, House Doc. 43, 88th Congress, 1st Session.
——————————————————————————–
“A tax cut means higher family income and higher business profits and a balanced federal budget. Every taxpayer and his family will have more money left over after taxes for a new car, a new home, new conveniences, education and investment. Every businessman can keep a higher percentage of his profits in his cash register or put it to work expanding or improving his business, and as the national income grows, the federal government will ultimately end up with more revenues.”
– John F. Kennedy, Sept. 18, 1963, radio and television address to the nation on tax-reduction bill
JMWalker,
From what I’ve seen here you have nothing to be proud of, nothing at all.
Oh, ya, I forgot: Hey, boxboy, I thought you said I got the story all wrong. What’s up with that? What part did I get wrong? What talking braindeads were I listening to anyway? Come on, boxboy, be specific. If you’re going to call me out about being wrong, who and what was I watching, and how could you possibly know I had it wrong if you don’t know who I was watching? Come on, tinhatboy, show us your ignorance.
“Senator Obama, hypothetical question, I’m a plumber, I want to buy a plumbing business…
I don’t have a plumbers license, hell, I’m not even a bonafide apprentice, but I want to buy a plumbing business that only grosses 100 k per yr, so how’s your tax plan going to affect me?
Answer, Not At All, except to let you keep more money to make your bad investment.
#
Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008 at 4:45 pm | Permalink
JMWalker,
From what I’ve seen here you have nothing to be proud of, nothing at all.
=======================================================
UUUUhhhhhhhh, that really hurt, boxboy. I just might have to fix me a steak, medium rare, to console myself. Maybe even add a baked tater with sour cream and chives. Add an ear of corn . . . why shoot, I’ll be forgettin’ your insult in, oh, about two-three minutes.
“A tax cut means higher family income and higher business profits and a balanced federal budget. Every taxpayer and his family will have more money left over after taxes for a new car, a new home, new conveniences, education and investment. Every businessman can keep a higher percentage of his profits in his cash register or put it to work expanding or improving his business, and as the national income grows, the federal government will ultimately end up with more revenues.”
– John F. Kennedy, Sept. 18, 1963, radio and television address to the nation on tax-reduction bill
Posted by boxboy.
======================================================
Son of a gun, isn’t that what Obama’s planning for 95% of the people of America? The other 5% can afford to help pay to get this country back on it’s financial feet. So I guess Obama agrees with JFK. Ironic, ain’t it! I just love neo-con logic.
Interesting isn’t it boxy?
How I seem so much a happier person than you?
Normally, I don’t relish other people’s misery. There’s probably a little of it left in me from my Republican days.
I have to guiltily admit I am positively GIDDY to see you cons melt down so. Couldn’t happen to more deserving folk.
Heh HEH!
Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008
You make me sick, you diseased pile of warm dung.
maybe more worthless. Scum of the earth!
until the earth is free of your wasted space.
I have decided there must be a slightly dark side to my idea of entertainment because I like to poke a stick at them every once in awhile and watch them squeal like the pigs they are.”?-Boxlock
Boxlock the pretend Christian has issues. Got hate and bigotry Boxlock?
Joe Da Plumber is nothing but a wannabe. He’s had every opportunity to get his apprenticeship, and failed to do so. He makes around 40k a year, but failed to pay his taxes. He’s a poster boy for everything neo-cons see as wrong with the middle class. Max would call him a loser; Nathan would call him JR jr.
It’s not surprising McCain and Palin keep using a loser as their poster boy for a better tomorrow.
I’ll just keep filing away Boxlock’s rants. Maybe someday I’ll know exactly what to do with them.
“They obviously forgot it was McSame who brought up Joe in the first place.”
But it wasn’t McCain that threw dirt on him, it was the Obama campaign, and that’s what was wrong.
And of course partisan jerks like JM.
mxyzptlk, Posted October 19, 2008 at 4:58 pm |
“I’ll just keep filing away Boxlock’s rants. Maybe someday I’ll know exactly what to do with them.
Yeah, just keep doing that, that should be enough to keep a simpleton occupied, but I’m confident you will never know what to do with them as evidenced by your lack of understanding of anything else.
I ‘calls um the way I see them’ mxyzptlk, that’s just honesty.
But I am humbled with the impression I seem to be having on you, ha. What’s a matter little guy, haven’t got the where-with-all to speak out and and call the socialist trash what they are?
Geez bigotbox, meltdown much?
hee hee hee heeeeee
Boxy’s got that ol’ time religion on display here.
Worm dung?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Ya know, amongst gardeners, that’s highly prized.
Walker, that steak sounds good but we’re having meatloaf and steamed home grown taters here. Wish you were nearby. We’d have a good laugh at bigotboy…
“But it wasn’t McCain that threw dirt on him, it was the Obama campaign”
Well first of all, I think it was the media that dug up the truth about joe’s lies, and his ties to keating, wasilla, his back taxes, etc.
Perhaps if joe and mcCoot hadnt lied, there wouldnt be any truth, er…. dirt… to be found.
Only with bigotbox republicans could TRUTH be called DIRT.
I think that says it all…
“But it wasn’t McCain that threw dirt on him, it was the Obama campaign, and that’s what was wrong.”
Actually it was Joe who provided the dirt.
I think that all these whiny and hateful republicans want us to think that somehow, obama’s tax cut is actually an income leveling plan, and, like sunflower, they believe he’s gonna tax EVERYTHING over $250k at 100 percent!
Distort much?
Lie much?
naaawwww. All those wingnut christians COULDNT be lying.
Could they?
And what is it with repukes who dont pay their taxes. Terry fox, joe the plumber, etc.
I guess their response to their public duty is to thumb their nose and give a big raspberry.
bth,
And you don’t have any on you, dirt that is? Ha!
Whether he has a license or not he is a plumber, and he has aspirations of buying the business and moving himself ahead in life, something that many of the DimLibs around here can’t even understand.
Ben I hope you are somewhere watching this meltdown from the left. Boxlock made a statement and was piled on. I told chas what I thought and he started with the name calling. And of course it was only 6 to 1 so farmgrl had to chime in.
Sadly I think you are missing some of the dirt on this blog. Issues don’t matter to most of the posters. When I point out to chas that he has more than many of his neighbors his response is to call me names and tell me I don’t know anything about him.
I know he is employed unless that has changed recently. I know he has a computer with internet access. I know he has tv and at least some cable. But when I suggest that he and I go to see some really poor people so he can write a check his answer is hostility.
So I can draw from that only that socialism is ok to use against the perceived rich but stay out of Chas’ pocket. The democrat party is a party of ideas but no action. They will take from those who have and give to those that they think don’t have. If I think those ‘don’t haves’ should find a job and support themselves then I am mean.
naaawwww. All those wingnut christians COULDNT be lying.
Could they?
And what is it with repukes who dont pay their taxes. Terry fox, joe the plumber, etc.
I guess their response to their public duty is to thumb their nose and give a big raspberry.
————–
Ben I do hope that as we write you have a post ready to go out to farmie for the ‘repuke’ label. I hope you also tell her that as a Christian I am greatly offended by her words and cavilier attitude toward my faith.
But of course you knew this all before I reminded you didn’t you?
Ya know chicken farmer, it is pretty hard to take anything you throw my way very seriously, someone raising chickens because they couldn’t hold a job and got their position ‘eliminated’.
Lets see, and couldn’t stay in a marriage either, and then became a lesbian. Though I’m not sure which order that came in.
Could you enlighten us on that?
Hey I’m happy to watch.
Just how ugly are you gonna go boxy? I guess you don’t have much in the way of credibility or dignity to lose.
Heh, pour it out!
“And you don’t have any on you, dirt that is? Ha!”
The difference would be that WE didnt volunteer to be tools for a presidential campaign.
Bigotbox, exactly HOW MANY times do you want me to post about my marriage and being a lesbian? I know you’ve asked me to post it three times at least.
Comprehension problems?
And grmie, take a look at the “christians” here and their hatred. Then tell me again you are offended when someone calls them on it.
Waaaaaaa Waaaaaaaaa
So how come the media can get after Joe, when Obama the Messiah gets no scrutiny? What you won’t read from the lib MSM.
http://www.kxmc.com/News/Nation/287374.asp
bigot box self employed = good
grmie self employed = bad
ksfarmgrrl self employed = bad
jr self employed = bad
joe the wanna be self employed = good
jr and farmgrrl self employed = bad
got it!
I love how they love entrepreneurs.
Until they dont…
What dirt? We are just asking the question, “Who is Joe the Plumber.”
Now we know. He’s a Koolaide drinker.
He cannot understand that, as a working man, he will benefit from an Obama presidency.
#
Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008 at 5:04 pm | Permalink
“They obviously forgot it was McSame who brought up Joe in the first place.”
But it wasn’t McCain that threw dirt on him, it was the Obama campaign, and that’s what was wrong.
And of course partisan jerks like JM.
==========================================================
Ya know, boxboy, if joe da plumber had told the truth from the start, non of this would have happened. Instead, he saw a wannabe moment, and pounced, then got caught up in the world he created. To blame Obama’s camp for this shows where the real partisanship lies. But then, boxboy, you would never be partisan, would you? Hehehehe.
#
ksfarmgrrl
Posted October 19, 2008 at 5:16 pm | Permalink
Walker, that steak sounds good but we’re having meatloaf and steamed home grown taters here. Wish you were nearby. We’d have a good laugh at bigotboy…
I do love meatloaf and steamed home grown taters. But is boxboy worth laughing at . . . . . . . . Oh hell yes!!!
okob – I am watching meltdowns somewhat on BOTH sides. From what I have seen (and I haven’t read everything) you have not been a part of that.
I have a feeling it will really get nasty on the next two weeks.
Saw today that Rush is claiming that Powell’s endorsement of Obama is racially motivated. Yesterday Paul claimed that Powell is toadying up to Obama hoping to get a cabinet post. Gee … maybe Powell was simply ‘putting American first’?
Never did get an answer farmer, never got the answer. And you know why.
JW, he didn’t lie, he is a plumber, that’s how he makes his living, and he may well have hopes and aspirations of buying the business or starting his own, I believe he does, that’s what he said. But why try if he he is taxed heavily, and as is can just sit back working for someone else and have that guys taxes given to him.
Buy the way, I’m not self-employed, I employ myself, I work for the company I own a significant part of.
#
okobserver
Posted October 19, 2008 at 5:37 pm | Permalink
Ben I do hope that as we write you have a post ready to go out to farmie for the ‘repuke’ label. I hope you also tell her that as a Christian I am greatly offended by her words and cavilier attitude toward my faith.
====================================================
. . .and you don’t think Liberals are offended by the so-called Christian right, who have time and time again perpetrated known lies about Obama? Who knowingly spread lies about a man running for President of this country? I think you need to check your own playground before you start denouncing others.
The Christian rights cavalier attitude towards the truth, in favor of electing someone they agree with, leads many people to call them out on their so-called faith. For just that reason, our founding fathers nixed mixing religion and politics. So maybe you should be calling out your own people, rather than people of a different persuasion, political or otherwise.
“uy the way, I’m not self-employed, I employ myself, I work for the company I own a significant part of.”
I should have added….’there is a difference, as I don’t imagine any of the DimLibs are aware of a difference’.
JM when all of those people you mention start posting on this blog then I will share your offense. Just as I am sure you share mine when someone just referred to McCain as a ‘Manchurian Candidate’.
So I should quit calling libs ‘dim’ but because somewhere in this world someone calls Obama a muslim, but it is still ok for the left to call the GOP ‘repukes’.
Well I do follow your ‘logic’ but don’t think it is logical.
Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008 at 6:00 pm | Permalink
JW, he didn’t lie, he is a plumber, that’s how he makes his living, and he may well have hopes and aspirations of buying the business or starting his own
======================================================
He works as a plumber, but is neither a licensed or apprenticed plumber. Which means he could be a lightbulb salesman tomorrow with no loss of career, because, by his own choice in not applying for an apprenticeship, he basically has no career: he’s a blue-collar worker who would benefit under Obama’s tax plan. He’s a wannabe plumber who ain’tgonnabe a real plumber.
So that would be a “no” on reading comprehension.
Sorry. No troll food here today.
But thanks for playing. We are amused, (actually, we’re laughing our asses off) and we do encourage you to try again.
I’m employed by the company I own, too. So is JR.
Like I said. I love how the right wing loves aspirational entrepreneurs.
Until they dont…
And germie? My attitude about your faith isnt cavalier. It’s down right disgust.
Hypocrisy has a way of making me feel that way.
And I would add “I don’t imagine any of the DimLibs are aware of a difference’”
okob – I suppose after seeing so much of that and also having endured lying mudslinging myself when I ran fr office in 1994 (from self-described Christians) that I have become hardened to the use of Repukes in return.
From Godarchy – affiliated with OR and the GOP – their claim was that I was running on the gay agenda (whatever that is) because I was a closet gay. That came as quite a shock to my wife and teen-aged son.
Repuke is mild …
“who have time and time again perpetrated known lies about Obama? ”
What lies?
Obama himself referred to his “Muslim religion”, and had to be corrected by the interviewer.
He has the most liberal voting record in the Senate, except that he hasn’t been there that much as he has been running for Pres. over half his time there.
He slips up and tells what’s on his mind by saying wants to spread peoples money around, taking it from those that rightfully earn it and give it to those that haven’t.
No there are few lies, there don’t have to be he makes it pretty clear himself.
Farmie I can honestly say that you never fail to amaze me and I am never surprised by your attitudes on other peoples opinions and values.
Boxlock posted
Sticking with the issues…maybe Obama should heed the advice of JFK
———–
Boxlock, does that make you feel good quoting Limbaugh’s stupid points?
‘JUST LIKE AL SAID! Russert pushed them RNC points. Somebody go wake Fred Barnes!’
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh120202.shtml
“HOW STUPID DOES IT GET? On Rush’s show, it gets very stupid. John Kennedy lowered the marginal tax rate from 91 percent down to 70. Bill Clinton raised the marginal tax rate from 31 percent up to 39.6. But Rush’s listeners are constantly told that Kennedy was a low tax guy, and Clinton was the king of Big Taxers. It’s amazing that such transcendent stupidity exists anywhere at all in our public arena.”
Ben you disappoint me. I didn’t run against you. Didn’t even know you ran. Will denounce those who spread rumors about you that weren’t true. I will never make excuses for bad behaviors whether they are my own or others. People who know me know that.
I have got down in the mud on this blog more that at any time in my life with all of the bad times combined. I won’t be doing that anymore. I will argue the issues and not give into the mud slinging. I would encourage you to do the same. We are better than we show here.
#
okobserver
Posted October 19, 2008 at 6:07 pm | Permalink
JM when all of those people you mention start posting on this blog then I will share your offense. Just as I am sure you share mine when someone just referred to McCain as a ‘Manchurian Candidate’.
So I should quit calling libs ‘dim’ but because somewhere in this world someone calls Obama a muslim, but it is still ok for the left to call the GOP ‘repukes’.
Well I do follow your ‘logic’ but don’t think it is logical.
===================================================
Hank: how many variables of Obama has Hank called him. Hank’s a good Christian man. Why does he find it necessary to call Obama anything but Obama?
Regular: See above.
biased1: See above.
Boxlock: See above.
Candysue: Forget it.
Franklin: See any of his posts.
Ad infinitum . . . .
Are those the ones you’re waiting to read here? Politics and religion tend to bring out the worst in people, and when pushed, some push back more than others. The bloggers here are about as divided as any you’ll read anywhere, which means fairly typical. Big deal. Words do matter, but on this blog? Not so much.
okob – and you will note that I have not targeted you. This was the Sedgwick County Republican Party – if memory serves you are elsewhere. My point is that certain of those who were involved in 1994 are still around and in positions of power in the local GOP. So, the legacy of those blatant lies remains.
Could I forgive? Perhaps – were there ever an apology.
Cosmos wouldn’t you agree that the percent of reduction was much higher under Kennedy than the percentage of increase was under Clinton? Had Kennedy lived I have to wonder what more he would have done to bring it down even more.
Clinton did raise taxes. No getting around it. We can argue the reasons. We can argue the affect. But we have to agree that the result under Kennedy was to lower taxes and increase tax revenue. Some will argue that can’t happen. But it did. That has always been the pattern.
For Obama to even consider a tax increase at this time is a formula for disaster. The results will bear this out. Hang on it is going to be a rough ride.
Boxlock posted October 19, 2008 at 5:04 pm
But it wasn’t McCain that threw dirt on him, it was the Obama campaign, and that’s what was wrong.
—————–
Obama’s campaign didn’t attack ‘Joe the faux plumber’, other than ask how many plumbers earn $250k.
But the plumbers union, and real plumbers, are not impressed with ‘Joe’.
okobserver,
For Obama to even consider a tax increase at this time is a formula for disaster. The results will bear this out. Hang on it is going to be a rough ride.
———-
Prove it, by answering my 2:50 pm post.
okobserver,
Obama’s tax policy is based on multiple parts — such as targeted tax cuts and increases, tax credits, and changes in capital gains.
Post your proof that all of those parts working together would harm the U.S. economy. The example McCain is currently using, ‘Joe the faux plumber’ is based on multiple lies, and is invalid.
And prove that McCain’s economic policies would improve the U.S. economy better and faster than Obama’s policies.
Clinton raised taxes – no question about it. But he also cut taxes – notably the tax on gains on sale of personal residence. Reagan-Bush-Dole had RAISED that tax back in the 80s.
JFK did cut tax rates – but you have to realize just how high they had been under the Republicans before that – 90% rate as I recall. WAY above the rate where they depress economic activity (Laffer Curve). When Clinton raised rates they still remained much lower than those previous rates.
I would also note that by balancing the budget Clinton set the stage for low LONG-TERM interest rates. The real key to stable economic growth is tight fiscal policy coupled with easy monitary policy. Right now (and for the past 7+ years) we have had far too loose fiscal policies.
The key to Keynesian economics is to run SURPLUSES when times are good. Clinton did that. Bush did not – nor did Reagan-Bush before that.
okobserver posted October 19, 2008 at 6:20 pm
For Obama to even consider a tax increase at this time is a formula for disaster.
————
Like I said earlier, the plan contains multiple parts.
“In net, even after these tax changes, the Obama plan is a tax cut. His middle class tax cuts are larger than the loophole closers and rollbacks that he has proposed for families making over $250,000. According to the Tax Policy Center, the Obama plan would reduce taxes as a share of the economy to less than 18.2 percent – the level of taxes that prevailed under President Ronald Reagan.“
okobserver
Posted October 19, 2008 at 6:20 pm | Permalink
Clinton did raise taxes. No getting around it. We can argue the reasons. We can argue the affect. But we have to agree that the result under Kennedy was to lower taxes and increase tax revenue. Some will argue that can’t happen. But it did. That has always been the pattern.
========================================================
If you remember, Rush tried to bet a million of his own money Clinton’s tax increase would put this country into a recession. It didn’t happen, and if the Democrat party had taken Rush up on it, he would have lost. I could give a million reasons the Democrat party didn’t take him up on it, but that would be speculation.
My take on Obama’s plan is it will have pretty much the same effect Clinton’s did. That, plus really tightening up finance market regs, such as outlawing credit default swaps and all spin offs of same, will have a positive effect on the economy.
cosmos – I am willing to bet that Obama will be forced to actually raise taxes overall. This will be the legacy he will inherit from Bush – unpaid bills stacked to the sky. 8 years of runaway deficits will leave a severe hangover to be treated.
Ben,
Already making excuses.
Nevermind the fact that Obama probably has at least 1 trillion dollars in new government entitlements to hand out.
I am sure he won’t be raising taxes for any of that though.
Nah.
Cosmos ‘targeted tax cuts and increases’ is the democrat parties way of saying tax the rich and give it to the poor. If you add up the amout of spending Obama has proposed it will add up to disaster for the economy.
The rich I think are taking their money out of the market and the country forseeing what Obama plans to do just as the Kennedys did years ago. Their family trust is held in Haiti. Corporations will simply increase the price of their products and also reduce their workforce. The ones who haven’t done it already will be moving to offshore mfg. Intel has already build their biggest chip fab in Ireland the land of 11% corp. taxes. Many chip makers are closing their factories here and moving them to other more friendly gov. tax systems.
The universal health plan Obama has proposed will drive many small business out of business. Look at the actual details of his plan not his talking points on the stump. Hawaii has already found after only 7 months that it won’t work.
These are facts Cosmos. Not talking points. Not threats. Ben makes a point about how Bush didn’t bank a surplus during the good times and I agree to a point. Our nation under Bush has faced many natural disasters as well as the largest worldwide terrorist attack. While I disagree with Bush or many things I can agree with him on national security. We haven’t been attacked on our own soil since 9/11. Many other countries haven’t been this fortunate. Look at the ones that have been hit and look at their behavior towards terrorists. When you appear to cooperate with them they see this as weakness.
There is no good and bad in this election. There is a need for voters to be very knowledgeable about the issues and what needs to happen in the future.
Not making excuses Nathan – just facing the reality of the TREMENDOUS hole that Bush has DELIBERATELY dug my country into. Do you deny the doubling of the debt under Bush?
As for the trillion dollars your boy Bush does that all the time – Iraq for example.
Ben,
Much of that debt is not underwritten into permenant spending though.
When the war spending is done, it is done.
That is where much of the debt has come from.
Obama though? His debt is the kind that will keep costing us forever.
If debt is your concern, then why are you voting for Obama?
Do you honestly think that the government spending will be less with Obama than with McCain?
Or is it that you don’t care how much the government spends as long as we raise taxes to cover it all?
McCain has not shown me that he will control spending any more than what we have seen for the past 8 years. And, I do believe that we have infrastructure needs that I do not see McCain addressing.
Clinton did a better job of reining in spending than Bush 1 did. The Democrats sought to establish ‘pay-go’ controls. Republicans like the ‘painless spending’ of credit cards.
JM truth time. Clinton did leave the country in a recession. In March of 2000 if you got out of the tech stocks you would have made thousands. The NASDAQ was at an all time high of 5100 then. By the time Clinton left office the NASDAQ was below 2600. The tech bubble burst with help from Qualcom, GlobalCrossings (a company that made millions for Terry McCauliffe) and other overpriced tech stocks. Those are facts. Check them out.
As far as growth no matter who gets in. The short term growth potential just isn’t there. We are in the tightest credit market we have ever been in. When businesses can’t borrow money for expansion all of their suppliers are impacted, no new vehicles, no new office equipment, no new building, no new hiring, layoffs. The result is a stagnant or depressed economy.
Ben,
Raising taxes is likely, the amount depending on how much waste can cut — with a scapel, eliminate unneeded programs, improve efficiencies of others, etc.
Another factor would be how much can be invested in improving energy efficiencies, and how soon. Those investments would help reduce costs nationally.
It will be a complicated mess, with the need to consider long-term effects, probably more major problems in the near-future, and AGW, global factors, etc.
Nothing wrong with government substidized health care….Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA system all work great. A national policy that the uninsured or uninsurable can buy into at an affordable rate is a great idea. I’d rather see tax money go for healthcare than useless wars.
There is no way to turn it all around without a lot of pain and time. All I know it won’t get done at all if we continue the same failed Republican policies and I certainly don’t see McCain bringing anything different to the table.
“But the plumbers union, and real plumbers, are not impressed with ‘Joe’.”
—–cosmos
I am not impressed with any union, good for Joe!
Ben I do think we have to give Newt some credit for helping control spending. When the demos controlled both houses and the executive branch massive programs were established with no controls.
The ‘Contract with America’ in 1994 reestablished a two party government. This is what I fear here is that total demo control with nothing to check it will put us in a hole for many years to come.
McCain has shown that he can say no to pork barrel spending. Obama not so much.
McCain has shown that he can say no to pork barrel spending.
If true why did McCain sign off on the bailout with its bloated extra $100 billion?
bth
Posted October 19, 2008 at 6:08 pm | Permalink
And I would add “I don’t imagine any of the DimLibs are aware of a difference’”
okob – I suppose after seeing so much of that and also having endured lying mudslinging myself when I ran fr office in 1994 (from self-described Christians) that I have become hardened to the use of Repukes in return.
From Godarchy – affiliated with OR and the GOP – their claim was that I was running on the gay agenda (whatever that is) because I was a closet gay. That came as quite a shock to my wife and teen-aged son.
Repuke is mild
———————————-
Oh noes!
You got called some names when you decided to run for office and therefore you blame everyone that is Christian or GOP.
Naw, the truth is you don’t need a reason to call names back, it’s your personality and your Leftist background.
And I don’t want to hear that junk about voting Republican in Chicago either. Perhaps you had a conscience then or perhaps it was a vote of conciliation to get into some one’s good will or the Dems’s choice back then really really sucked.
You’ve always sided with left as your stories from the 60s indicate. You’ve had a liberal education at liberal universities and hung around liberal people.
But do enjoy your hate and divisive nature now. Perhaps your grandchildren will grow up wondering why grandpa was always cranking about something and had that scowl on his face.
Newt helped. However, I would note that Clinton and the Democratic Congress had already established a balanced OPERATING budget before Newt. It then took several more years to build up enough operating surpluses to completely cover the debt service (interest payments) on the dept that Clinton inherited from Reagan-Bush. It will take much longer to do that with the 11 trillon debt that Obama will inherit from Bush 2.
Repubs whined about tax and spend, applauded borrow and spend, and look where it’s gotten us.
Mary with medicare and medicaid there are some controls in place. You have to go thru means testing to go on medicaid and be old enough to qualify for medicare. With unlimited coverage no matter what you will bring people on the health care rolls that don’t have coverage because they want to spend their money somewhere else, some who think they don’t need insurance because they get it anyway by going to ERs.
McCains plan at least makes you be responsible for yourself. You have the option of shopping for the best plan. You can invest in medical savings plans. There are many options under his plan. I don’t think he has talked about it enough but I can see pluses in it.
As usual ireegular – you are 100% full of sh*t.
The government had little if anything to do with the 2000 recession. Certainly, Clinton’s tax increase had nothing to do with it. The cause, again, was more due to natural business cycles, and the collapse of the dot com bubble, than anything the government did. The 90’s boom was over.
“Early 2000’s recession had been predicted by economists for years, because the boom of the 1990s, which was accompanied by both low inflation and low unemployment, had already ceased in East Asia during that region’s 1997 economic crisis.”
It only stood to reason, the United States would follow in Asia’s footsteps, as we were so much involved in the same.
#
bth
Posted October 19, 2008 at 7:47 pm | Permalink
As usual ireegular – you are 100% full of sh*t.
=====================
Your honor, my opponent has just proven my case for me.
“I’m employed by the company I own, too. So is JR.
Like I said. I love how the right wing loves aspirational entrepreneurs.
Until they dont…”
—–the lesie chicken farmer
Ah, lets see now, does this company, chicken farm, you work for exist as a corporate entity, and you work for that entity? Or do you just consider yourself self-employed? There in lies the difference, of which I think you are ignorant, as on most things.
No, I think I’m correct neither you or JR are understanding, and don’t know enough to even realize that.
Oh Ben if it were only that simplistic. I wish it was. Many factors were at play here and I don’t have all night to go into all of them. The balanced operating budget you mention I believe happened in Clinton’s last year in office not in his first term. This was with the help of a republican congress and senate.
I believe the following are accurate:
Fiscal—-Year——-Nation—— Deficit
Year——Ending—-Debt
FY1993 09/30/93 $4.411488 tril
FY1994 09/30/94 $4.692749 tril $281.26 bil
FY1995 09/29/95 $4.973982 tril $281.23 bil
FY1996 09/30/96 $5.224810 tril $250.83 bil
FY1997 09/30/97 $5.413146 tril $188.34 bil
FY1998 09/30/98 $5.526193 tril $113.05 bil
FY1999 09/30/99 $5.656270 tril $130.08 bil
FY2000 09/29/00 $5.674178 tril $17.91 bil
FY2001 09/28/01 $5.807463 tril $133.29 bil
As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a budget surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the budget was almost balanced in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of “only” $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero–let alone a positive number. And Clinton’s last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration. letxa.
okob – you will note that I referred to OPERATING balance – that is before accrual of inteerst. And you will note the steadily decreasing ‘after-interest’ deficit through Clinton’s term.
Regular
Posted October 19, 2008 at 7:45 pm | Permalink
“But do enjoy your hate and divisive nature now.”
Is THIS a good example of hate and a divisive nature?:
Regular
Osama the “Magic Negro” Obama has plagiarized Alynsky more than once in his speeches.
Bet the service sector is experiencing severe shrinkage. The myth that everyone can move into the service economy is over. Much of the growth came fron these exotic financial instruments. But like I’ve always said there has to be hard assets underneath.
Obama will lead the country in, if not taking back some of our old manufacturing, then in helping to create a new area to produce in.
The cds were pretty much like everyone thinking they could make a living by selling each other insurance policies.
“Your honor, my opponent has just proven my case for me.”
All I have proved regular is that I will strike back to slurs.
#
bth
Posted October 19, 2008 at 7:57 pm | Permalink
“Your honor, my opponent has just proven my case for me.”
All I have proved regular is that I will strike back to slurs.
——————-
Exactly – and over and over and over again.
OK, so what’s McCain’s “plan” for those who are uninsurable, like me?
Obama’s plan is not what you describe. Do your homeowrk.
Jm that could also be said about the present coming recession. The government didn’t make the bubble in sub prime lending burst just now. Several politicians on both sides of the aisle contributed to this. People were given loans that shouldn’t have had them. Restrainsts again over lending vs income were removed by those calling fowl on rascist or prejudicial lending. Eventually the lending market took the entire market down. This where we are now.
Only McCain among the current candidates warned of this two years ago. This tell me he gets the economy better than Obama. Just my observation.
The guy who attacks Obama on Obama’s SOCIALISTS plans, gets personally attacked.
That’s funny as hell isn’t it?
“Exactly – and over and over and over again.”
Correct – as long as your slurs come over and over and over again I will respond in kind.
mxyzptlk – I had forgotten about regular’s “magic negro” comment. Almost as good as Rush today claiming that Powell’s endorsement of Obama was racial.
What is McCain’s “plan” to bring down the cost of health care? Or to keep private insurers from “cherry picking”? How does having a government subsidized health care policy that people can buy into to help those whose employers don’t offer health benefits mean that people aren’t taking responsibility for themselves?
Obviously you have never had to deal much with the present healthcare system, or I think you’d see things differently.
Mary I don’t consider you uninsurable. I have done my homework. I have been where you fear being. The insurance industry is slanted against those who need it most. But if you do the proper homework you can find some good bargains.
What I found is that with a deductible high enough that you can still afford it but with premiums you can also afford there are bargains out there. I choose a $5000 deductible. Very high I know but that wouldn’t break us. The million plus expense for an unexpected illness or disease would have.
I did my homework. No one ever told us life was a rose garden but you can avoid the thorns.
okob – have you coupled your HD policy with an HSA? I think that may be a good way to go.
Not to brag Mary but I am a heart attack surviver, am diabetic, have accute degenerative joint disease which has cost me one thumb and both knees and have COPD which I deal with daily.
Yes I have seen lots of healthcare issues those were just the highlights. I just refuse to take no for an answer. I also recognize that there are those who would take advantage of the system if Obama’s plan is implemented. JMOHO.
WSJ: Obama’s Tax Cut for 95% of Americans Is an Illusion
Or
how Osama Obama is proposing another Welfare system controlled by the IRS.
Editorial in today’s Wall Street Journal: Obama’s 95% Illusion; It Depends on What the Meaning of “Tax Cut” Is:
One of Barack Obama’s most potent campaign claims is that he’ll cut taxes for no less than 95% of “working families.” He’s even promising to cut taxes enough that the government’s tax share of GDP will be no more than 18.2% — which is lower than it is today.
It’s a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he’s also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%. But how does he conjure this miracle, especially since more than a third of all Americans already pay no income taxes at all? There are several sleights of hand, but the most creative is to redefine the meaning of “tax cut.” …
Mr. Obama is proposing to create or expand no fewer than seven [tax] credits for individuals:
1. A $500 tax credit ($1,000 a couple) to “make work pay” that phases out at income of $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 per couple.
2. A $4,000 tax credit for college tuition.
3. A 10% mortgage interest tax credit (on top of the existing mortgage interest deduction and other housing subsidies).
4. A “savings” tax credit of 50% up to $1,000.
5. An expansion of the earned-income tax credit that would allow single workers to receive as much as $555 a year, up from $175 now, and give these workers up to $1,110 if they are paying child support.
6. A child care credit of 50% up to $6,000 of expenses a year.
7. A “clean car” tax credit of up to $7,000 on the purchase of certain vehicles.
Here’s the political catch. All but the clean car credit would be “refundable,” which is Washington-speak for the fact that you can receive these checks even if you have no income-tax liability. In other words, they are an income transfer — a federal check — from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. …
i.e.,income transfer means a welfare check
Because Mr. Obama’s tax credits are phased out as incomes rise, they impose a huge “marginal” tax rate increase on low-income workers. The marginal tax rate refers to the rate on the next dollar of income earned. As the nearby chart illustrates, the marginal rate for millions of low- and middle-income workers would spike as they earn more income. …
One mystery — among many — of the McCain campaign is why it has allowed Mr. Obama’s 95% illusion to go unanswered.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/10/wsj-obamas-tax.html
“Only McCain among the current candidates warned of this two years ago. This tell me he gets the economy better than Obama. Just my observation.”
—okobserver
You are exactly right again, as usual, okobserver.
And Obama and a few of the other Dims socialist mob wouldn’t stand for any tightening up of the lending regulations.
McCain and I believe 19 other Republicans foretold of this happening and were called racist among other unsavory things by the Dims.
“Only McCain among the current candidates warned of this two years ago. This tell me he gets the economy better than Obama. Just my observation”
No, Obama also warned of the impending crisis….and McCain voted time and time again against regulation, and that contributed A LOT to the crisis….mortgage lenders were making lots of money making sub prime loans and then selling them off.
McCain doesn’t seem to have much insight into anything…that’s why he relys so much on character asassination, twisting the facts, and outright lies to try and win the vote.
Haven’t Ben but I am always looking. Will look into that. When you have to put down diabetic, heart disease and arthritis you go on the D list I have found. Not complaining, I am still breathing and able to enjoy my grandkids.
The great thing about the HSA is that it is your money. You then can pay the deductables from it – with before tax dollars.
“And Obama and a few of the other Dims socialist mob wouldn’t stand for any tightening up of the lending regulations.”
That’s a laugh…when McCain voted against regulation every chance he got.
And HOW much campaign cash did McCain get from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac along with the others?
This is essentially Obama’s plan:
The Libs won’t be happy until they are paying a Negative Tax rate. That’s right, they want money back! Money taken back from the RICH and given to them!
Wealth redistribution would look like:
……………Income …Tax Share
Top 1%___>$364,657___90%
Top 5%___>$145,283___100%
Top 10%__>$103,912___125%
Top 25%__> $62,068___150%
Top 50%__> $30,881___175%
Bottom
50%______< $30,881____ – 75%
That’s right, the Top 50% would pay 175% of total taxes.
The Bottom 50% would steal 75% of the collected taxes. (Thieves that they are!)
What are all you Republicans going to do when Obama is declared the wnner on the evening of November 4th?
Are we going to have to endure 4-8 years of Republican victimhood?
Guys like Joe don’t want Handouts.
As for the rest of you who do…
A MESSAGE TO THE 40% OF AMERICA THAT WILL GLADLY RECEIVE OBAMA’S “TAX CUTS”.
Will you feel proud to be on welfare?
Will you feel patriotic to be on welfare?
Will you go to your neighbor and thank them personally for paying taxes so that 40% of America can receive a Handout?
Can’t make it on your own, can you?
Bet you feel proud about that.
Max – I doubt yor numbers are truthful. I’d sure like to see where they came from and how they were derived.
“Not to brag Mary but I am a heart attack surviver, am diabetic, have accute degenerative joint disease which has cost me one thumb and both knees and have COPD which I deal with daily.
Yes I have seen lots of healthcare issues those were just the highlights. I just refuse to take no for an answer. I also recognize that there are those who would take advantage of the system if Obama’s plan is implemented. JMOHO.”
And what your monthly premium be if you had to buy your own insurance? The fact is, YOU can’t get your own insurance if you lose your benefits and have to get it on our own.
You better hope you NEVER lose your benefits…otherwise you’ll be sh*t out of luck.
Mary the lack of regulation you are referring to was harmful to the banking industry. None of this was why the mortgage industry got away with murder. Listen to Maxine Watters, Franklin Raines (Obamas financial advisor), Dodd, Franks and others who said everything was fine.
By the time we knew it wasn’t fannie and freddie were in big trouble and our strongest banks had bought up billions in worthless paper. A year ago when WaMu sold our mortgage to Wells Fargo I saw this coming. We were class A+ borrowers, the kind lenders hold on to. When you have a cash flow problem you have to sell the good stuff because the bad stuff is worthless.
Not sure what you mean about Obama warning about the mess to come. I haven’t heard that one. When was that?
“A MESSAGE TO THE 40% OF AMERICA THAT WILL GLADLY RECEIVE OBAMA’S “TAX CUTS”.”
I work three jobs, have never taken a government handout, and would be VERY happy to get Obama’s tax cuts…I’m just a working slob who is sick of being taxed to death so corporate CEOs can have multi million dollar salaries. I’m glad to see the bastards have to pay more. Why do YOU want them to get even more tax breaks than they already have?
Mary I did lose my coverage. It was before the COPD was diagnosed and I had only lost one knee at that time.
My premium was guoted as $1500 with no drugs or dental coverage. Through the state pool it was a little cheaper. There are several pools out there. WIBA is an orgainized plan for small businesses. Many people can qualify for this pool. Other pools are available for members of certain trades. More and more these are becoming available.
I’m not saying reform isn’t needed I just think Obama is proposing a major reform without looking at the ramifications or alternatives.
“Not sure what you mean about Obama warning about the mess to come. I haven’t heard that one. When was that?”
Several years ago he did the same thing…he referred to it in the debate.
The fact is that McCain voted against stricter regulation that would have prevented some of this, and that allowed the greed to run wild.
I say we sale your airplane Mary and buy okobserver some insurance.
Sounds fair to me.
You get to have an airplane and hanger while others suffer.
You should feel ashamed.
Why don’t you do the Patriotic thing and pay more in taxes so others can have health care?
okob – my parents were both in health care. I learned from them the value of prevention – especially for the munchkins. That is part of why I support some sort of system – get families into regular care and out of the ERs for such care. I think the savings from such efficiencies will end up lowering the overall costs.
Like you I have health ‘issues’ – fortunately I have a good employer-based plan. I have found that if I at least ’sort of’ obey my DR (and more importantly his nurse!) my health costs are actually quite low. Prevention and maintenence is a lot cheaper than having to do things ‘after the fact’.
Mary_Caruso
Posted October 19, 2008 at 8:21 pm | Permalink
“A MESSAGE TO THE 40% OF AMERICA THAT WILL GLADLY RECEIVE OBAMA’S “TAX CUTS”.”
I work three jobs, have never taken a government handout, and would be VERY happy to get Obama’s tax cuts…
============================================================
If you get BACK more then what you pay IN, then you are getting Welfare!
Be Happy! Don’t Worry!
It’s Free!
It’s F A I R Y – D U S T !
Mary I am not in favor of multi million dollars salaries to CEOs but by the same token I know that pressure on corporations will make them look at their options. I have seen it happen already. Where do you think the money leaving the market is going? I have some ideas. I don’t expect to see the market go up much until after the election. If Obama wins I don’t expect to see much upward movement any time soon. Just my opinion.
“Through the state pool it was a little cheaper”
So how is that NOT government subsidized? If people have a federal plan that they can buy into and get coverage, that’s no different than what you describe.
Right now I’m uninsurable, so if my husband and I lose our jobs, I have no option to buy my own.
McCain has nothing for me in his plan…and a $5,000 tax credit does me no good at all.
Heck Mary, if you really do WORK, then BUSH gave you a tax cut 6 YEARS AGO!
Thursday, March 22, 2007
U.S. Senator Barack Obama today sent a letter to Federal Reserve Chairman Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Paulson urging them to immediately convene a homeownership preservation summit with key stakeholders to fight foreclosures driven by growth in the subprime mortgage market.
The text of the letter is below:
Dear Chairman Bernanke and Secretary Paulson,
There is grave concern in low-income communities about a potential coming wave of foreclosures. Because regulators are partly responsible for creating the environment that is leading to rising rates of home foreclosure in the subprime mortgage market, I urge you immediately to convene a homeownership preservation summit with leading mortgage lenders, investors, loan servicing organizations, consumer advocates, federal regulators and housing-related agencies to assess options for private sector responses to the challenge.
cintinued at:
http://obama.senate.gov/press/070322-obama_urges_ber/
There should be no such thing as free health care for anyone, even someone on Medicaid or VA benefits should have co pays, that would cut down on abuse….but health care should be affordable for every American.
Ben that is certainly true and my husband and I are on the prevention road now. We have cut the time we spend in our drs ofc and feel better for it. We are educating our adult sons on takeing better care of themselves. Not smoking, regular exercise or activity, eating right, etc.. We have also told them about the tendicies in our families that they will inherit. I have done so much research I think I could get a degree in preventive medicine. Just kidding of course.
I have a passion for diet cokes and my 21 year old grandson tells me constantly that this is used to clean blood off of concrete by hypos. He is a college senior majoring in nutrition and physical fitness. He wants to be a personal trainer. He will be very good at this. We have to do a better job with and for the youth.
Funny, seems like I still pay a lot in taxes….I really can’t see how Bush has done anything much for me.
okob – agreed. The frustrating thing to me now is that my grandkids eat like I do – but stay thin! UNFAIR! WAH!
;)
Mary – agreed. Seems we have trillions going down a rathole. Meanwhile, roads and bridges etc crumble …
Gosh Linda, that letter from Obama looks just like an Acorn letter!
Acorn for years has been threatening and intimidating lenders as to why they are foreclosing on black people.
The fact that they signed a mortgage and didn’t make the payments – doesn’t matter.
Lenders shouldn’t foreclose on black people.
That’s wrong.
We should all get free houses.
Well, goodnight all. Gonna be a long day tomorrow …
Or at least black people should.
Has Acorn EVER represented a white person?
Mary_Caruso
Posted October 19, 2008 at 8:36 pm | Permalink
Funny, seems like I still pay a lot in taxes….I really can’t see how Bush has done anything much for me.
==============================================================
What was your tax rate in 2002?
In 2003?
Mary believe me I do share you concern. The state pool is made up of insurance companies that are required to offer insurance at what is considered an affordable rate. This is something that cost the state nothing but does raise the risk for the ins comps required to do this.
Its a little like the home and auto insurance we get through AARP. Our agent told us he couldn’t touch their rates because they were allowed to block any drivers under 25 and when you don’t have teenagers your risk is much less.
If you Work, AND
Pay Taxes,
then Bush cut your taxes.
Night Ben, enjoyed the discussion.
“I say we sale your airplane Mary and buy okobserver some insurance.
Sounds fair to me.
you get to have an airplane and hanger while others suffer.
You should feel ashamed.
Why don’t you do the Patriotic thing and pay more in taxes so others can have health care?”
I do pay more in taxes than you probably make in a year, dear. I’d just like to have the same access to health care that you do instead of just paying YOUR way. As far as the airplane…it IS for sale..you want to buy it, Nathan? I mean, don’t you want to live the Ameircan dream you so patriotically defend?
If McCain gets elected, my taxes will go up even more for sure…he’s only interested in tax braks for the rich..and contrary to what Nathan believes, that doesn’t include me.
“breaks”
McCain’s letter — signed by nineteen other senators — said that it was “…vitally important that Congress take the necessary steps to ensure that [Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac]…operate in a safe and sound manner.[and]..More importantly, Congress must ensure that the American taxpayer is protected in the event that either…should fail.”
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/10/mccain_letter_d.php
—————-
This is a copy of the letter McCain authored. It clearly points out that if allowed to go on unfettered fannie and freddie would be in a world of hurt.
As Obama pointed out foreclosures were becoming a problem and he thought action should be taken. The actions of freddie and fannie led up to the foreclosures because they loaned money they shouldn’t have, they loaned money on properties that were overpriced, loaned 100% of the purchase price, didn’t require that borrowers have sufficient income to make payments on designer loans like balloons or interest only loans.
I’m tired of seeing people lose everything because they get sick…something has to change and McCain’s plan isn’t going to change anything.
Mary I will be surprised if your taxes go up under McCain. He is getting economic advise from men who know that higher taxes in a recession will only depress the economy more.
Mitt Romney has shown his talent for turning million dollar business from bankruptzy to prosperity. I hope he get a chance to work with McCain to do this with our economy.
Mary I understand where you are coming from. I have been spending lots of time in Okla with my mom. At 93 she is in a nursing home and not expected to live out the week. She doesn’t know us now and it is very sad.
I have met several other people in the nursing home. Her roommate for the last three weeks had to leave yesterday because she had ran out of days with medicare. It would have cost her $123 a day to stay there. She couldn’t stand by herself. Her knees wouldn’t lock in place. This was very hard for her and a dependent son that lives with her. We do need some fixes but Obama’s plan wouldn’t even address her problem.
So many questions and so few answers. Time to call it a night. It’s been a very good discussion which just points out the many differences in the US population.
“okobserver” tells us –
“Mitt Romney has shown his talent for turning million dollar business from bankruptzy to prosperity. I hope he get a chance to work with McCain to do this with our economy.”
Mitt Romney’s “talent” was closing down American factories and sending American jobs overseas.
But the stocks did great. Merril Lynch and Lehman Brothers execs made millions!
Mary, are you totally stupid tonight or are you degenerating in a lying DimLib like so many of the others here. I’m not calling you that but I am asking.
This stuff takes seconds to find.
The biggest recipients of cash from Freddie and Fannie are all Democrats. The three biggest in order are: 1. C. Dodd–$165,40; 2. B. Obama–$126,350; 3. J. Kerry–$111.000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-_HlpZ8azA
Now look at what McCain tried to do but was stopped.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/17/mccains-attempt-to-fix-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-in-2005/
With the financial sector in turmoil today, the media and the politicians have started throwing around blame with the same recklessness as lenders threw around credit to create the problem. Politically, the pertinent question is this: Which candidate foresaw the credit crisis and tried to do something about it? As it turns out, John McCain did — and partnered with three other Senate Republicans to reform the government’s involvement in lending three years ago, after an attempt by the Bush administration died in Congress two years earlier. McCain spoke forcefully on May 25, 2006, on behalf of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 (via Beltway Snark):
“Mr. President, this week Fannie Mae’s regulator reported that the company’s quarterly reports of profit growth over the past few years were “illusions deliberately and systematically created” by the company’s senior management, which resulted in a $10.6 billion accounting scandal.
The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight’s report goes on to say that Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives. In the case of Franklin Raines, Fannie Mae’s former chief executive officer, OFHEO’s report shows that over half of Mr. Raines’ compensation for the 6 years through 2003 was directly tied to meeting earnings targets. The report of financial misconduct at Fannie Mae echoes the deeply troubling $5 billion profit restatement at Freddie Mac.
The OFHEO report also states that Fannie Mae used its political power to lobby Congress in an effort to interfere with the regulator’s examination of the company’s accounting problems. This report comes some weeks after Freddie Mac paid a record $3.8 million fine in a settlement with the Federal Election Commission and restated lobbying disclosure reports from 2004 to 2005. These are entities that have demonstrated over and over again that they are deeply in need of reform.
For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac–known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs–and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO’s report this week does nothing to ease these concerns. In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO’s report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.
I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.
I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation.”
In this speech, McCain managed to predict the entire collapse that has forced the government to eat Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with Bear Stearns and AIG. He hammers the falsification of financial records to benefit executives, including Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson, both of whom have worked as advisers to Barack Obama this year. McCain also noted the power of their lobbying efforts to forestall oversight over their business practices. He finishes with the warning that proved all too prescient over the past few days and weeks.
okobserver,
God Bless both you and your mother at this time.
I hope and pray you can find His peace at this terribly difficult and sad time.
I am sure your mother really appreciates your being with her, it is surprising what end of life folks perceive yet can’t express.
I am really sorry to hear you are going through this, it’s not easy at all.
McCain’s letter — signed by nineteen other senators — said that it was “…vitally important that Congress take the necessary steps …
Mccain signed on to the letter after the damage was clearly evident. He’s no great seer. Also, he didn’t even author it then, he just added his name. Whoopee.
#
okobserver
Posted October 19, 2008 at 8:01 pm | Permalink
Jm that could also be said about the present coming recession. The government didn’t make the bubble in sub prime lending burst just now. Several politicians on both sides of the aisle contributed to this. People were given loans that shouldn’t have had them. Restrainsts again over lending vs income were removed by those calling fowl on rascist or prejudicial lending. Eventually the lending market took the entire market down. This where we are now.
Only McCain among the current candidates warned of this two years ago. This tell me he gets the economy better than Obama. Just my observation.
=====================================================
If only it were that easy to cliff-note it.
While both parties had their hands dirtied on this, there were forces outside government taking full advantage of the situation, to the determent of the financial stability of this country.
When financial institutions decided to start bundling mortgages into CMO’s and later, CDO’s, then selling insuren, . . . er . . . credit deficit swaps, to back them, the stage was set. When housing prices started dropping, interest rates climbed, and home owners could no longer afford house payments, the trap door opened.
Not having the monies set aside to honor the CDS’s, when they became due, is the real reason for the failures. There is over one quadrillion dollars in derivatives on the market. Over half of that figure is unregulated. That’s nearly ten times the global money output. One slight misstep could trigger a world depression, if it isn’t happening already.
My suggestion would be to google the backgrounds of the people running the bailout, then tell me really want that to continue.
Good point, “Phantom” –
And as I recall that letter came on the heels when one rogue trader in France caused a multi-billion dollar hedge fund to collapse.
The response from the Shrub Administration was, “there’s nothing hedge funds are doing that’s illegal.”
As with most financial scams, the crime is that it’s not illegal. Ponzi broke no laws at the time. Enron was “technically” legal at the time.
That’s the crime.
Mary,
Contrary to what I believe?
No. I don’t think you are rich. Blue Jay does, but not me.
I just think that if you are going to support a candidate that thinks health care is a right ( I mean entitlement) then you should be making some more sacrifices to give people that right (darn, I mean entitlement)
“Nathaniel” –
There’s another thread discussing health care.
Go over there and thrill us with your brilliance.
Mccain signed on to the letter after the damage was clearly evident. He’s no great seer. Also, he didn’t even author it then, he just added his name. Whoopee.
—Phantom
Yeah, and there wasn’t a Dimocrat that signed on, and that didn’t fight anything being done. NONE!!!
McCain tried, saw it coming and tried.
Dims…..continue to buy votes and take kick backs for turning their backs on the problem.
Now that’s a fact!!!
I ran down the mccain letter he referenced, it was on huffington. In it (a letter to R senate leadership) he was concerned with the structure of Freddie and Fannie.
McCain’s Letter ‘Warning Exactly of This Crisis’
by Jesse Nankin, ProPublica – October 10, 2008 2:00 pm EDT
Tags: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, John McCain
John McCain’s signatureYesterday we reported on letters referred to by Barack Obama and John McCain during the second presidential debate. We had Obama’s letter, but couldn’t find McCain’s. Since our post, the McCain campaign has sent us a letter dated May 5, 2006 (pdf), and signed by the senator and 19 other Republicans. It was addressed to the Senate Republican leadership and focuses on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
“We are concerned,” the senators wrote, “that if effective regulatory reform legislation for [Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac] is not enacted this year, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.” The letter called for the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act, a bill that had been introduced on Jan. 26, 2005 by Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), to be brought up for debate. About 20 days after he signed the letter, McCain became a co-sponsor of the bill.
Their pleas to rein in these two financial institutes were not unfounded. About six months later, the New York Times reported that Fannie’s “accounting improprieties” of several years had resulted in a reduction of its earnings by $6.3 billion.
Whether the letter warned “exactly of this crisis” can be debated. Some argue that Fannie and Freddie were relatively late entrants in Wall Street’s enthusiasm for risky mortgages – that they are among the culprits, but not the root cause of the crisis. Others argue that pressure (both from Capitol Hill and Fannie and Freddie) to extend mortgages to those who could not pay for them inflated the housing bubble. But you can judge for yourself. Again, here’s the letter.
I agree with the assessment that f&f were not the causes of the current turmoil. So the letter he signed on to had little to do with the current financial turmoil.
You DimLibs look like foolish asses lying against the facts.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/17/mccains-attempt-to-fix-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-in-2005/
In this speech, McCain managed to predict the entire collapse that has forced the government to eat Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with Bear Stearns and AIG. He hammers the falsification of financial records to benefit executives, including Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson, both of whom have worked as advisers to Barack Obama this year. McCain also noted the power of their lobbying efforts to forestall oversight over their business practices. He finishes with the warning that proved all too prescient over the past few days and weeks.
It never made it out of committee. Chris Dodd, then the ranking member of the Banking Committee and now its chair, was in the middle of receiving preferential loan treatment from Countrywide Mortgage, one of the companies gaming the system in the credit crisis. Meanwhile, Barack Obama took hundreds of thousands of dollars from the lobbyists McCain mentions in this speech, making him the #2 recipient of Fannie/Freddie money:
Open Secrets has the list of Congressmen who have benefited from Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac largesse since 1989 (inclusive). Remarkably, after only serving less than four of those 20 years, Barack Obama has vaulted to the #2 position on Capitol Hill. Only Dodd outstripped him. He took more than six times the amount that McCain received in a 20-year period.
The record shows that McCain saw the problem coming and tried to get Congress to act. In 2005, both McCain and Obama served together in the Senate. Did Obama attempt to pass this reform, sign on as a co-sponsor, or even speak out in its favor? The record is tellingly blank.
As we have seen, McCain has been talking reform for three years, with no assist from Barack Obama. And McCain at least knows the correct name of the company that got its bailout last night from the federal government. Is Team Obama so incompetent that they couldn’t check the name before issuing the statement?
Why didn’t someone try to stop it?
http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2008/09/29/who-caused-the-biggest-financial-crisis-since-the-great-depression/
Someone did: “The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago,” The New York Times, September 11, 2003.
But someone intervened to stymie the Bush administration. Who? The New York Times reports:
Supporters of the companies said efforts to regulate the lenders tightly under those agencies might diminish their ability to finance loans for lower-income families. . . . “These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. “The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”
Why didn’t someone else ring the alarm?
Someone else did. In 2005, John McCain co-sponsored the “Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act,” which among other things provided for more oversight of Freddie & Fannie. The bill didn’t pass. Guess who blocked it?
The bill was reintroduced in 2007. But again, no luck. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had friends in the Senate:
* Chris Dodd, a recipient of “sweetheart” loans from a Freddie and Fannie backed company.
* The junior senator from Illinois, i.e., Barack Obama, who turned to Jim Johnson, former head (1991-1998) of Fannie Mae, to help advise him on whom to pick for the vice-presidential slot on his ticket. From 1985 to 1990, incidentally, Johnson was managing director of Lehman Brothers. Remember them?
* You might also want to check out one of Barack Obama’s other advisors: Franklin Raines, former CEO of Freddie Mac: see here , for example, or here , or here.
Hey, Dims….watch it, or are you afraid of the truth and how much your party had to do with all of this, including ‘The ONE’, Obama!!!! If I were you I’d have a hard time too, but the music is great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiXwZI_YqHY
“Someone else did. In 2005, John McCain co-sponsored the “Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act,” which among other things provided for more oversight of Freddie & Fannie. The bill didn’t pass. Guess who blocked it?”
It didnt pass… It never got out of committee!!
Who blocked it?? Simple — REPUBLICANS…. the very ones who were in charge of the friggin committee!! 11 Repubs VS. 9 Dems.
The DEMS couldnt have blocked it ALONE!!
But, the infamous, disingenuous BOXLOCK continues to LIE… for what?? Because he can!!
I cant wait for November 4!!!
Very well said!
‘The Real Plumbers of Ohio‘
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/20/opinion/20krugman.html
Sounds like the Repubs. killed Hagel’s bill, NOte in the article it says REpubs were the political power houses at F&F after 2004.
Sounds like F&F bought off some repub Senators. Throw the bums out of power!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081020/ap_on_bi_ge/the_influence_game_housing_20
Still the bill was more about taking over F&F, and breaking it up, primarily.
Sounds like Box better get the rest of the story.
“Sounds like Box better get the rest of the story.”
Box has got the rest of the story, sounds like I was right, the Dims on this blog are either too afraid to read the links above, or too dishonest.
Our resident fake, dishonest preacher is lying again as well. The bill didn’t have a chance.
“The chairmen hold extensive powers: they control the committee’s agenda, and so decide how much, if any, time to give to a bill;”
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:AHXAzXuAK-cJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate+does+senate+committee+chairman+control+the+agenda&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
“A September 11, 2003 New York Times article shows that President Bush proposed “the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.” His proposal: An agency within the Treasury Department to supervise mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
”These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac —are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee.”The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”
Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed. ”I don’t see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,” Mr. Watt said.
According to OpenSecrets.org , between 1988 and 2008 Dodd received $133,900, Kerry $111,000, Clinton $75,550, and Obama — in only 143 days in the Senate — received a whopping $105,849 from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac lobbyists.
Pennsylvania Democrat representative Paul Kanjorksi, who also opposed new Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac regulations, was given more than any other member of the House of Representatives. He was paid $65,500 coming by these lobbyists.
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:wmJZ68Pz5JMJ:www.topix.com/forum/city/welch-wv/T66230BT45IHT5JJ0+bill+to+control+Freddie+and+Fannie,+2003&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a
But Democrats in Congress, also known as “the caucus perpetually on the wrong side of history,” were having none of this “responsibility” stuff.”
Lying Dimocrats…..just like on this blog!!!
WWWAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH
Need some tissue their Boxlock for you whining and crying?
No Boxlock, you don’t have the “rest of the story”.
Your argument and links indicating a “smoking gun” between Democrats and the current crisis are predicated on the assumption that it is self evident that the Macs “caused” the crisis. That’s not true. They did help to perpetuate it, but they did not underwrite the loans that started it. Lack of oversight (oh no, that bugaboo of so-called free marketeers) had more to do with the crisis as anything else.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/53802.html
“Fannie, the Federal National Mortgage Association, and Freddie, the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corp., don’t lend money, to minorities or anyone else, however. They purchase loans from the private lenders who actually underwrite the loans.
“It’s a process called securitization, and by passing on the loans, banks have more capital on hand so they can lend even more.
“This much is true. In an effort to promote affordable home ownership for minorities and rural whites, the Department of Housing and Urban Development set targets for Fannie and Freddie in 1992 to purchase low-income loans for sale into the secondary market that eventually reached this number: 52 percent of loans given to low-to moderate-income families.
“To be sure, encouraging lower-income Americans to become homeowners gave unsophisticated borrowers and unscrupulous lenders and mortgage brokers more chances to turn dreams of homeownership in nightmares.
“But these loans, and those to low- and moderate-income families represent a small portion of overall lending. And at the height of the housing boom in 2005 and 2006, Republicans and their party’s standard bearer, President Bush, didn’t criticize any sort of lending, frequently boasting that they were presiding over the highest-ever rates of U.S. homeownership.
“Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.”
And also…
“Conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer wrote recently that while the goal of the CRA was admirable, ‘it led to tremendous pressure on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — who in turn pressured banks and other lenders — to extend mortgages to people who were borrowing over their heads. That’s called subprime lending. It lies at the root of our current calamity.’
“Fannie and Freddie, however, didn’t pressure lenders to sell them more loans; they struggled to keep pace with their private sector competitors. In fact, their regulator, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, imposed new restrictions in 2006 that led to Fannie and Freddie losing even more market share in the booming subprime market.
“What’s more, only commercial banks and thrifts must follow CRA rules. The investment banks don’t, nor did the now-bankrupt non-bank lenders such as New Century Financial Corp. and Ameriquest that underwrote most of the subprime loans.
“These private non-bank lenders enjoyed a regulatory gap, allowing them to be regulated by 50 different state banking supervisors instead of the federal government. And mortgage brokers, who also weren’t subject to federal regulation or the CRA, originated most of the subprime loans.”
There is plenty of blame to go around.
I wonder why bigotbox never addresses the issue that fannie and freddie paid over two mil to a republican consulting firm to KILL regulation?
Maybe because they didnt get satisfaction from the democrats.
heheheheh.
How do you know a republican is lying? Whenever he’s accusing democrats of doing it. He’s trying to hide his own lies.
“Look over there. A bright and shiny object”
From the Dept. Of Talkin’ Out Yer Ass…
#
Boxlock
Posted October 19, 2008 at 7:53 pm | Permalink
“I’m employed by the company I own, too. So is JR.
Like I said. I love how the right wing loves aspirational entrepreneurs.
Until they dont…”
—–the lesie chicken farmer
Ah, lets see now, does this company, chicken farm, you work for exist as a corporate entity, and you work for that entity? Or do you just consider yourself self-employed? There in lies the difference, of which I think you are ignorant, as on most things.
No, I think I’m correct neither you or JR are understanding, and don’t know enough to even realize that.”
Bigotbox, you would know this… how?
Karnak the great?
Tell ya what. I’ll post my corporate info here.
Right after you post yours.
Who wants to bet bigotbox spends most of his day asking his customers if they’s “like fries with that”
nitwit
Repubs were Fannie and Freddies bitches, waaaaaa call a waaambulance quick!
What’s the difference between Joe the Plumber and Obama supporters?
Joe the Plumber knows crap when he see’s it.
“Tell ya what. I’ll post my corporate info here.
Right after you post yours.”
–the chicken farmer
Okay chicken farmer….okay, I’ll post what my corp. is and you post what yours is, since you issued the challange.
I own a significant share of a ‘C’ Corp., a standard corporation, as opposed to a Sub Chapter S Corp. That corp. employs myself and the other partners and customer service.
Now, what say you? Corp., or gainfully self-employed, or simply living on the farm with no other job?
I’ve known several self-employed folks that are unemployed.
Wow boxlock has issues….eat some fiber or something.
Bigotbox, no deal. I meant corporate names.
Otherwise? You’re crap’s just words on a screen. Without a name, no one can verify it.
Ok, I own controlling interest of a major multinational ag business that employes me as CEO.
Ok, your turn.
Names, or else it’s just lies on a screen…
Just like grmie.
nitwit
Wasnt it st. ronnie raygun that said “trust, but verify”?
no verification, no trust!
I’ve seen nothing to indicate bigotbox does NOT make a living asking “would you like fries with that”?
Do you wipe those cheeto stained fingers on your mommy’s bedspread?
Maybe you and tippy should get together and compare notes. Unless… you are the same fictitious person?
nitwit
Another real-life, ‘Joe the faux plumber’ joke — he accepts welfare from strangers.
‘Radio Hosts Help Joe the Plumber Pay His Taxes‘
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/20/radio-hosts-help-joe-the-plumber-pay-his-taxes/
“Portland’s 1190 KEX’s afternoon News Radio hosts Mark Mason and Dave Anderson succeeded in that goal today, not only raising the $1,200 Joe the Plumber needs to pay his taxes, but also the $500 he’ll need to get his plumber’s license.
Mason writes that the hosts spoke to Wurzelbacher and his brother on air tonight to break the news. “We just spoke with Joe (and his brother) LIVE right now…felt that the media was unfair in that they never seemed to ask HIM about his background,” Mason wrote this evening, “He was very grateful for the $$.”
”
———–
‘Joe’ doesn’t like the tax cuts that Obama would give him, but charity is fine.
Let’s raise some more money for ‘hard-working Joe’, so he can pay off his traffic fines in Arizona, and get his drivers license unsuspended.
“I’ve known several self-employed folks that are unemployed.”
I’m sorry, what does that mean?
You know folks with the fortitude and skills to make it on their own instead of selling things like YOU do?
I sense…bitterness. I am getting also, “I am miserable! Everyone else should be too!”
Well let’s have us a look at Joe the plumber.
I mean right off the bat, he’s a stupid white guy. The type is well known.
But let’s look deeper.
Was Joe working SO hard for his employer that he neglected his wife and family responsibilities?
It seems so, since his wife left him and won custody of his son.
And having FAILED in his primary responsibility to his family and succeeded in pleasing his boss? What did Joe aspire to?
He wanted to buy the business so HE could sit behind a desk and send OTHER people to work FOR him.
One imagines him having little concern for his employees’ family life. Why should they have it any different than he did?
This speaks to the corruption and destruction of the so called “American dream”. Instead of personal achievement and elevation?
It has become about passing your own personal misery and failure on to others. “Joe” didn’t seek betterment for anyone other than himself.
BlueJay posted October 20, 2008 at 11:17 pm
He wanted to buy the business so HE could sit behind a desk and send OTHER people to work FOR him.
————–
Actually, ‘Joe’ and the owner talked six years ago, when ‘Joe’ interviewed for the job, about ‘Joe’ buying the business.
It’s only a two-person plumbing business. ‘Joe’ has NOT even completed his apprenticeship, and is not qualified to do plumbing without oversight.
‘Joe’ is not a “plumber”, he’s just an assistant
IIRC, if Joe owned the business, he’d have to hire and pay a qualified plumber. And assist that plumber, if he wanted to make a reasonable profit.
Been there but have NOT done that.
I’ve been a victim of it.
Joe wants to use people more qualified than him to do work to make money for Joe.
This is what is fundamentally WRONG with America. America should not be about jobs. It should be about WORK and those who do it for themselves and others to help themselves and others.
It’s after 12 Americans and another day closer to victory.
ksfarmgrrl,
Right, actually you are nothing but a cast off lesie chicken farmer, who is probably sitting on her ex-husbands land, and is unemployable except to raise chickens, as no one else will tolerate her.
You are also a liar, as you would never reveal who you are…..too ashamed.
IF you knew anything “Boxlock”?
You’d know that my friend lives on a farm passed down to her by her dad.
Her Father’s day tribute to him is out there. Get creative with google.
Now cover up your ass or volunteer to show it off in person.