It may have looked impulsive, but the Wichita school board’s decision to add $20 million to the proposed school bond issue, for a total $370 million, may not have hurt the proposal’s chances with voters, judging from a SurveyUSA poll conducted for KWCH, Channel 12. Of 500 Wichita adults polled, 47 percent said they’d be more likely to vote for the bond issue if it included both athletic facility improvements and additional technology education (13 percent said they’d be less likely to vote for such a bond issue, and 37 percent said it would make no difference). Among those respondents more likely to vote “yes” because of the changes, 55 percent said that the added $20 million sounded “just about right.”
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102 Comments
Over one-third of a billion dollars is a lot of money to ask for, for one city.
There better not be any more hands sticking out asking for more money, for a very long time, if the bond passes.
“It may have looked impulsive, but the Wichita school board’s decision to add $20 million to the proposed school bond issue, for a total $370 million, may not have hurt the proposal’s chances with voters”
You have GOT to be kidding! I don’t know who exactly SurveyUSA talked to, but everybody I’ve talked to thinks the school board is crazy. With the economy as shaky as it is, this bond issue needs to go down in flames.
There is NO excuse that the Wichita public schools are dilapidated in when compared with the schools of Andover, Derby, Maize, Goddard…
I’ll be voting ‘Yes’
I’ll vote for the bond issue, so long as the state of Kansas will finally get progressive enough to allow vouchers or tax credits.
If there isn’t going to be any real movement on that part, then I’ll be voting no.
I’m not going to send my children to be government educated. But I don’t mind supporting those who want to, (well I’m forced to anyways). But I’ll give and take.
So that means I will support any bond issue, help elect the most liberal board members and whatever the government education community wants, so long as I get vouchers or tax credits.
Wishful thinking, ict.
The passing of the last bond issue was the beginning of the Arena handouts. The fact there is no parking shows that it is a building cash cow kickback for someone.
………….vouchers and tax credits are not “progressive”.
Let’s see, ……………….. let’s take tax dollars and move that money to the private or religious sectors……….
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this one out………
Mark McCormick asks for input for a column next Sunday on alternatives, suggestions for other ways to address our school’s needs. I’m going to work on that. And I’m going to hope he is able to set aside his feelings in order to do justice to that column. He certainly didn’t indicate he could be impartial in this morning’s column where he made the request with obvious rancor.
My biggest problem with this newest bond issue is that they did not do the things promised when the last bond was promised. Also, USD259 already spends around $12,000 per student per year, one of the highest rates in the nation. It seems like they are not managing that huge amount of money well if they can’t even maintain the current infrastructure.
Let’s see some accountability before I will vote positively on this one.
Here and all this time the CONservatives were saying the government closest to the people is best.
There’s no taxing unit closer to the people than your local school board. If your public schools are substandard, it’s because your elected officials are incompetent.
If you’re elected officials are incompetent, it’s because you voted for them.
It’s because you’re not attending school board meetings and giving a damn about the taxes you pay.
School boards are the classic model for “small government is better” CONservative boilerplate rhetoric. And who are the people who bitch most about public schools? The CONs that advocate the absolutely worst model for governing imaginable.
CONs want power in the worst way. And that’s how they wield it.
Y’know, something MH? Your sweeping generalizations based solely on differing opinions is pretty shallow. You assign the same motives, same actions, and same thought processes to everyone who is not in agreement with you. You dismissively roll millions of people up under one label “CONS” and ignore anything/everything someone might say.
Blinders much? There is a vast difference, for example, between a Rush Limbaugh and most of the people I know who you would label as CONS. Yet, you don’t see it due to your preconceived and unfounded bias.
Such a narrow minded view would be racist if you lumped all people of one color together. In your case, I think it is just laziness.
“Raptor” –
Are you saying that CONs no longer advocate local government? Or are you admitting that philosophy produces the least efficient government in America?
“Blinders much?”
MH…You aren’t reading what I wrote, or you are deliberating misinterpreting it…whichever, I really don’t care.
It is fine and dandy for your pals to have an opinion, but as soon as someone who doesn’t worship at your particular political altar says something, you immediately dismiss it with “CON boilerplate rhetoric”.
Not only do you have blinders on, you refuse to even consider any view but your own.
Notice, I don’t say “typical lib mentality” because I try to not make ridiculous generalizations like you do. Not saying I am perfect in any way, but I honestly try to stay away from simplistic generalizations meant solely to irritate, aggravate or insult others.
I attended my first school board meeting in too many years recently. My “children” are all grown, but I do have grandchildren in Wichita’s public schools and like everyone else I pay taxes, so there is NO EXCUSE for my apathy.
I didn’t understand most of what was going on! Seemed most of what they didn’t discuss was supposed to be understood — from reports they had access to, from prior meetings? The meeting seemed to fulfill public meeting laws barely, but certainly not be informative.
Maybe the meetings are like a weekly series and if you saw last week’s episode this weeks makes more sense? Maybe they would just as soon most people are unable to understand?
Seemed like another “good ole boy insider” network. Is everything run on that model?
I can tell you it isn’t what it should be. The opportunities to ask questions are a formal process of first requesting the time and being placed on the agenda. A total lack of any encouragement to be involved! No chance for asking the question now about this topic — that would need to wait until you’ve been approved to ask when they decide to allow questions. Head spinning yet? Also seemed they had previous to the meeting made up their minds and the meeting was only a public airing.
Organizations opposing the school bond issue have asked many questions and not gotten answers. No one seems to know simple things and I’m not confident that people who don’t know should be entrusted with more to not know about.
For example:
“CONS want power in the worst way”. A statement like that is not valid, substantiated, or even close to reality. Does that mater to you? Obviously not…your mind is made up, no sense in trying to confuse you with facts.
Yes…you have blinders on. It is sad, really. You appear to be fairly intelligent, but you have such a myopic outlook it appears quite sad.
Raptor
Posted August 17, 2008 at 11:11 am | Permalink
My biggest problem with this newest bond issue is that they did not do the things promised when the last bond was promised. Also, USD259 already spends around $12,000 per student per year, one of the highest rates in the nation. It seems like they are not managing that huge amount of money well if they can’t even maintain the current infrastructure.
Let’s see some accountability before I will vote positively on this one.
****************************************************************************
What was “promised” from the last bond issue that wasn’t done?
Sorry to tell you, that illusional “$12,000 per student per year” doesn’t come close to covering the cost for new and very needed facilities.
Vote for education, it is less expensive than ignorance.
“Raptor” –
One of the reasons you can’t categorize my opinions as “typical liberal boilerplate” is that I don’t generally subscribe to “typical liberal boilerplate.” I’ve participated in spirited disagreements with many liberal posters to this forum.
But sometimes I feel like George C. Scott as “Patton” when I read the routine screeds from CONs. “Rommel, you sonofabitch, I read your book!” he said.
You have nothing to refute the traditional CON boilerplate that “the best government is closest to the people” and how it conflicts with traditional CON boilerplate that constantly rags against public education.
“By their fruits ye shall know them.”
The “fruits” of one of the most basic CONservative tenets of governance is your local school board. How’s that worked out for you guys?
Often an answer begs another question. Of course, our school board has made sure that doesn’t happen. Therefore seems unlikely full disclosure will ever be possible. If anything needs to be kept secret they don’t deserve more of my money. If they are honorable they should have no secrets. Or is it that that really don’t know? Are they voting, making decisions, but don’t know the facts that would allow for informed decisions?
Perhaps they trust the many layers of administration? I don’t!
I will be voting yes. Though I am disappointed to see SO much money wasted on athletics. Athletics should be done in clubs outside the school for those interested.
“Illusional”? 25,000 Students, $300 million annual expenditure relates to around $12k per student per year–which is a valid meaurement/comparison. And that rate is one of the highest in the country.
I will voting yes as well BJ, but I have to disagree with you about the money spent on athletics for a few rasons.
1. Athletics are definately part of our common culture and whether we think it is a “waste” or not, the public demands it.
2. Athletics (like the Fine Arts) are the “hook” that enourage many students to stay in school and aspire the achieve to a higher level.
I am not optimisitic about the success of this bond election, but I will be supporting it 100%.
linda, I also do not like the layers of administrators, but there isn’t much that can be done about it. That issue and this bond election are apples and oranges. I am MORE concerned with the number of people on teacher contracts who have NO direct contact with students.
…….raptor, it IS illusional and it is meaningless.
Earlier this week, reichwing bloggers were posting that teacher/student ratios in the district are 12:1. I can tell you for fact that is another illusion.
Apophis I agree with your view on athletics in schools. Sometimes that is the reason some kids stay in. Right or wrong.
Please elaborate more on those on teacher contracts with no direct contact with students. I am leaning toward voting yes also but would like to see an effort by the administration to make a leaner top layer.
“Athletics are definately part of our common culture and whether we think it is a “waste” or not, the public demands it.”
We do not solve this problem by feeding it.
If the public wants athletics, let there civil organizations for that outside of the schools. Schools are for learning. Not playing games.
Raptor, I don’t know whether you are correct or not. I DO KNOW expenses are hidden, put in areas that would indicate they are spent differently than they truly are. You can’t trust the figures! For instance, there are at least 300 paid as teachers (because they are qualified to teach) who do not teach anyone anything. They have no classroom responsibilities, no students, do not teach!
Let’s figure an approximate of what is being hidden in just this area. Let’s use $35,000 as an average and multiply that by 300 for a total of TEN MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS. Every year!
What else is so cleverly hidden? How many layers of administrators are there? What do they do to contribute to our students success?
Want to give them more money? I don’t!
An awful lot of ego goes into these projects.
Perhaps more ego than need.
A few years back, we had a bond issue that used bond money to fill in the East High pool.
Now, we are to use bond money to build a NEW pool?
I do not doubt that there are some needs out there. However, actions such as the East High swimming pool stupidity do raise doubts.
…..ksgrm, I think linda explains about those people who are teachers and NOT teaching kids. They are not, for the most part, paid for from the General Fund. Most are paid for from Title 2 (Professional Development)funding. Of course, they don’t deliver the “professional development” that classroom teachers desire or need.
Again this issue, and the upper administration issue, are “apples and oranges” when debating the current bond election issue.
BJ
Sports do teach cooperation and teamwork.
Furthermore, the brain is stimulated by training in physical skills.
Teamwork, honesty, playing by the rules, good sportsmanship, anger management —
You obviously never had the opportunity to learn those things.
Your failure to learn these things is not a good reason to deny other (younger) juveniles that valuable training.
……………paul rossell, that old East pool you are yammering about was obsolete and needed to be filled in. That used that existing space to construct new, more “state of the art” science classrooms. This allows students to actually DO science in a real science LAB and not read about it in a classroom sitting in a desk.
There IS a real difference.
Another example of poor decisions that should raise doubts:
They systematically over the last few years took away all the equipment, all the labs, all the teachers who taught industrial arts. On purpose!
At the middle school level EVERY CHILD is taught double periods of math and English — theory vs. applied — so they might pass the tests. No one has the opportunity to learn math in a woods class which might be the exact way some would learn. Nope. Did away with the equipment. Many who may have been interested at the middle school level are lost.
BJ having raised kids when you sent them off to school with their lunch, a big cheif tablet, box of crayons and a pencil I know that our ‘free’ education is no longer free.
Getting two grandchildren in school this year – one in football was over $300 dollars and many more supplies than I used to be required to furnish.
Watching the olympics this week has reminded me of the pride we feel when our country does well. I love sports and also am proud of those like Linda’s son who have achieved scientific successes.
There isn’t a valid cookie cutter approach to public education.
Apophis, I can’t see why the same people who waste the money they currently are entrusted to spend and are now asking for more should be trusted to spend better, differently, take care of what they build in a more responsible way, contribute to the success of our students more effectively. Why in the world would you think this is apples and oranges? They waste now and yet we should give them more so they can continue their wasteful ways with what we already give? Maybe we could ask them to cut the waste and then see how far that goes toward our needs?
Name a sport and some of my young life was wasted on it there Franklin.
To show for it I have a bum knee and boxes of trophies and ribbons gathering dust in a box in the basement.
linda…………the “double-block” concept is fading away. There was no proof that it was beneficial for all students. Currently, we offer that choice only to the students who demonstrate the need. Everyone else gets more exploratory choices, as it should be.
Scheduling is a school based decision, not one made by upper level administrators.
Linda why you said makes me wonder if as taxpayers we shouldn’t be more involved in the decision making by the school board. Or is this something they did in closed session?
linda, first you’re going to have to define what “waste” is to you.
Money earmarked for facilities cannot be used for anything else by state law.
I have to go out with my wife for the afternoon to shop for new floor tile, I’ll be back later.
I trust you, Apophis and am truly happy to hear of this change! How many years did that take? How many levels of administration studied the failings and for how long before they came to this conclusion? YOU and all the teachers knew and tried to tell them years ago! When will you be treated as the professional you are?
There are just too many things wrong! I can’t continue to ignore and let them brush under the carpet all their failings. I won’t play into their hand and give them more.
Boy okob, I don’t know. I have been too apathetic! Haven’t attended but one school board meeting and was lost at that one. I posted above my impressions of that one meeting.
We all have to make our own decision. I love children and don’t have the words to tell you of my respect for education. But, I can’t trust that more money will solve anything that is currently wrong. It might bring schools to parts of town with growth and ease overcrowding there. At the same time it leaves more empty schools in other parts of town. And notice the schools they build are HUGE. Look at the size high school they want to build. yet our most successful high school is tiny. Northeast Magnet open to all students has a waiting list, a high graduation rate, students that really succeed! We could actually duplicate that school in some of the empty buildings the district owns.
We could share athletic facilities. They could be top notch, but not duplicated everywhere.
I never had kids in the Wichita district so haven’t been involved here. My grandkids go to Haysville and Rosehill. They went to Derby last year. That high school is too big. Students who are not assertive get lost in the processes.
I pay Wichita taxes and am interested in this bond issue though.
Seems to me if we don’t address the problems we will have more leave for the suburban schools who are doing a better job of education. Each step moves us closer to being an inner-city school district. Until we do a better job we stand the chance of having newer buildings sit empty. Suburban flight is happening now and Wichita schools bear the brunt of those students whose families can’t afford to move or are so far removed from what is going on they don’t know whether their children go to school regularly.
These problems ARE NOT addressed by this school bond issue!
Winston Brooks was not well suited for USD 259. He made some poor decisions and we’ll pay for those for several more years. Martin Libhart is the current acting superintendent. He had been in charge of facilities for many years. (Yes, the same facilities that are in ill repair.) When the school board appointed him they said it was because he was most familiar with the upcoming bond issue AND there were adequate people in place to fill the educational responsibilities he wasn’t well suited to perform.
Think about that. If we have these so-called adequate people why do we need a superintendent? And if we have a superintendent why do we need these other layers? And, why won’t someone tell us how many layers there are and at what cost? These aren’t people who are adding to our student’s success. They are layers of administrators. Including the so-called professional development coaches or whatever (the teachers who teach no one anything!). MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!
Why can’t we get straight answers? Is it because they don’t want us to know? Is it because they don’t know? Either way, somethings wrong!
Hey what is that girl writing?
I see “I will not pass.”
Is that it? Is that a prediction because she will waste time on cheerleading?
I will not pass out? No, they have air conditioning, finally.
Apophis
I think you are wrong on this one.
I went to East High.
I was briefly on the swim team there.
I also received my SCUBA certification in that pool.
There is NOTHING there, where the pool once was, by my memory.
Also, how does a swimming pool become “outdated” exactly?
Have we made improvements to water, chlorine, or concrete?
Apophis
We had fully functional science labs at East High, when I went there.
I graduated in 1977.
Have they come up with new bunsen burners?
Do the “new sinks” work better than the “old sinks”??
You are ridiculous.
You make my point:
Many of these projects are ego driven and not well thought out.
At the last bond issue, the East High pool was leaking so badly, and the foundation was crumbling, and the pool was circa 1940 when they swam in 20 yard pools (now it’s 25 yards).
It was going to cost more money to maintain the pool than it would to build a new one. In the interim, East has rented the pool at the Wichita Swim Club. Now it’s time to build a new one. Southeast, North, West and South are all in the same situation.
The suburban schools all have excellent facilities.
It’s time.
Would it not have been cheaper to fix the old pool?
Sorry, this one needs some explanation.
Even a “yah we screwed up” would be better than filling in a swimming pool, only to dig it back out again.
Safety concerns would be one legitimate reason for updated labs. Some school labs probably outlived their usefulness.
But, that brings up a question I have. Why isn’t maintenance better at our schools? As homeowners we know there is always something needing to be repaired, updated, replaced. Schools would require more of all this than a home. Why isn’t adequate money budgeted to take care of our schools properly?
Franklin,
It was too old and too small.
How much clearer can I make it?
I would favor exceptional shared athletic facilities. The way our population fluctuates we build one place and need more space across town in a few years.
Within walking distance of my house are four public elementary schools. I don’t know for sure about two of them, but two were on the list of schools below capacity that came out earlier this year in the newspaper. Our only “flux” in school needs is older people moving out and families moving in. There is no room for new houses as it’s an older established neighborhood. Most of my neighbors have lived here forever — their families long ago raised. When these schools were built and the houses new, the need was different than today. Same thing happens all over town. It’s another reason I’m questioning why we need HUGE schools. Why can’t we use one or more of these four in my neighborhood differently? Sure wouldn’t be a problem to consolidate the elementary children into three, freeing one for other uses.
back from a work call..
MH…are you intentionally misreading? The only reason I don’t lump you with all libs is that I don’t operate like you do. If you ever bothered to read some of the words of people you disdain, you would see that we cannot be all lumped together under one label.
You expect to be recognized as “different” from some standard liberal profile yet refuse to acknowldge how people who disagree with your holy opinion are not all of the same mindset?
Thus, blinders. Like I said earlier, you have your mind made up and refuse to consider any facts. Your very stupid comment of “CONS want power in the worst way” is absolute proof of my comments. You lump everyone you disagree with into one homogenous category and disparage everyone with unproven, ridiculous and asinine statements. You and capn must have gone to the same school.
KSGolfnut, we agree on something! The old East pool was antiquated and leaking. At some point, you have to cut your losses and build new facilities.
I also call BS on rossell’s assertion that the 75+ year old science LABS at East were good enough. There is more to science today than “bunsen burners and sinks.
Also, it is real convenient to blame someone for the condition of facilities. In reality, most of the buildings within the District have been maintained by dedicated support staffs on minimal budgets. Couple that with the constant wear and tear kids but on facilities over the years and even the best maintained buildings will show there age.
There are also many, many older buidings in the district. The older they are, the more they cost to maintain as a rule. Here is a case in point. Prior to 2003 when the 2000 bond issue paid for Stucky MS to be built, it was 1965 since the last middle school (jr. high) was built in Wichita. That middle school is Coleman. Do the math, almost 40 years between the two. The last HS to be built was Northwest in 1978. Before that, it was the late 50’s since a new HS building was actually built. Heights doesn’t count, it was built by the county and joined with 259 during the massive consolidations of the early 60’s.
I list all of this only to show that maybe, just maybe budgetary restraints prevented Wichita from taking care of many of its educational facility needs for many years. Winston Brooks is gone. He may have things you didn’t like. I can’t say that I backed his every decision 100%, but he did push to bring our schools into the 21st century.
Don’t our children and grandchildren deserve a 21st century education?
Vote for educational needs of our children and grandchildren.
Vote for the bond issue in November.
Education is cheaper in the long run than ignorance.
Question:
Are the school board meetings not televised as are the City and County meetings? Doesn’t the school have it’s own (cable) channel? Sorry, I’m not “up” on it all, as my kids attended more rural schools, not Wichita, and my g-kids are just entering Wichita schools.
2. Athletics (like the Fine Arts) are the “hook” that enourage many students to stay in school and aspire the achieve to a higher level.
While in essence I agree that many students need “hooks”, I’m concerned with the balance of the funding between athletics and fine arts. As I mentioned above, I can’t attest to USD 259’s funding of the two, but past experience has taught me that funding of athletics far out-distances fine arts and other “non-essential” activities. Can someone clue me in on this distribution of funds? Is it equal or one-sided?
The suburban schools all have excellent facilities.
Sorry, I didn’t note who posted this, but would you please state what schools you consider as suburban schools? Having spent nearly 45 years in outlying school districts, I can honestly say that when it comes to pools and swimming, few, if any, have swimming facilities in the school.
I would like to remind everyone that if this massive bond proposal goes down in flames by the largest defeat possible, as I hope it does, the public schools will still be raking in over $12,000 per student per year, or over $605 MILLION DOLLARS this year alone.
Ladies and gentlemen….that is a big hunk of change. The private schools in the area operate on about half that and do a much better job, at least as far as national test scores go, and considerably better in every other area as well. We would be money ahead and receive far better results if we had a voucher system to put some competition up against the public schools system.
But Apophis of course doesn’t want that…he knows how bad it would make him and his system look to be compared with what they are doing and the kind of results they are getting on half as much.
This school system needs NO more of the taxpayers dollars period, they simply are doing a terrible job of managing the generous resources they already have.
Apophis, you need to keep your mouth shut, it is obvious you don’t have the confidence to face competition and you are campaigning for yourself, not the children as you continue to say ad nauseam
“I am MORE concerned with the number of people on teacher contracts who have NO direct contact with students.”
OH NO….I need to go LIE DOWN! I think something is terribly wrong here, I actually agree with Apophis on something.
boxtop…………………show your quantitative data that “vouchers work” of shut the f*** up. (oh yea, that’s right,”market forces” will take care of every problem of the world)
Pretty too the point for a simpleton like you.
I have a question for everyone to ponder:
Is a child MORE than a test score?
Thart is the real question for boxtop and his like.
Of course children are more than test scores, far more, but they are also far more than objects for folks like you to use to feather your own nest.
Simply look at the performance of private schools and public schools, then look to how those same students succeed in the years following.
Apophis, you are a loser on the government dole.
Hey, Boxy–
We’re forcing people like you to pay for us to teach your kids to fear guns and global warming and force them believe that man grew from slime and mold.
Oh, and abortions are good.
Hehehehe.
………………I see boxtop still has no quantative data to support his asinine assumption that vouchers work.
“Apophis, you are a loser on the government dole.”
I’d venture to bet that I work more hours a week ALL year long then you do little man. If you looked at MY students’ test scores, you’d be astonished how high they are in almost every area.
You prove again than you are a mindless, dogmatic reichwinger.
As old man price would add:
nitwit
“The private schools in the area operate on about half that [of public schools] and do a much better job,” claims Boxlock.
Gee, did you graduate from a private school, Boxlock?
But I digress . . . of course, you can do “a better job” if you get to pick and choose which students you want to teach and which ones you don’t.
Discipline problems, out.
Learning disabled, out.
Mentally retarded, out.
Autistic, out.
Deaf or blind, out.
Emotionally abused, out.
Private schools don’t solve problems, they just avoid them to begin with . . .
….thanks for the input Capn.
“I’d venture to bet that I work more hours a week ALL year long then you do little man.”
by Apophis
I will readily concede that for expectancy sake only, though I also seriously doubt it. The difference is I work reasonably smart and efficiently, with a goal that must be met. You see I earn my income 100% from the commissions I earn, and pay 100% of my expenses. In other words, I don’t have a big bureaucracy to support me, or a communist like union to do the same. And you call me a little man…yet, I pull my own weight or I don’t survive, but you….well, you live off others like a parasite.
CrapOn writes:
“We’re forcing people like you to pay for us to teach your kids to fear guns and global warming and force them believe that man grew from slime and mold.
Oh, and abortions are good.
Hehehehe.”
You are exactly right and showing the true extent of your depravity. And, you are forcing through government mandate that we support a failing system, and one destined to undermine the future success of this country. Which we can see to some extent already today. And then you want more money to do more of the same…..asinine.
We would be doing the equivalent of feed a cancer.
School Voucher Programs: What the Research Says About Parental School Choice
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 July 2008, 03:00 CDT
By Wolf, Patrick J
“The high-quality studies on school voucher programs generally reach positive conclusions about vouchers. The many evaluations of targeted school voucher initiatives confirm that these programs serve highly disadvantaged populations of students. Of the ten separate analyses of data from “gold standard” experimental studies of voucher programs, nine conclude that some or all of the participants benefited academically from using a voucher to attend a private school. The evidence to date suggests that school voucher programs benefit many of the disadvantaged students and parents that they serve.”
http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1467036/school_voucher_programs_what_the_research_says_about_parental_school/
Public-, Private-School Test Scores Compared
“The average standardized-test scores of students in suburban public schools with high academic standards approach those of students in comparable private schools and are significantly higher than those of other public-school students.
The comparative findings come from an analysis of test results from the Comprehensive Testing Program–the standardized test employed by most of the nation’s independent schools.”
Apophis, read it and weep, no better yet…get to work and start demanding high academic standards. Oh and get rid of friends like CrapOn, who reveal themselves to be the shallow characters the are.
This topic shouldn’t have “sides.” I am so sad. I don’t know how to get to the place where we can work together and find solutions. Our children are our tomorrow, our future, our hope. They deserve waaaay better than any one of us here have offered.
My grandchildren who attend Wichita’s public schools have parents and grandparents,siblings, aunts, uncles… who offer what they miss at school — and they do have areas they miss at school! Each and every child in this great country deserves the opportunity for the best eduction we can offer.
I won’t vote for this school bond issue! I will work to improve our public schools. I will gladly give to any teacher the amount I would have paid in increased taxes if the school bond was passed. I want real change. I want change that makes a difference in our students chances for an improved education! I want each student in Wichita public schools to have every opportunity for success.
The proposed bond issue does not solve any problems! It doesn’t do anything to ensure any child’s education will be better!
………..again no QUANTITATIVE data boxtop.
Your messiah, Patrick J Wolf is an Electrical Engineer? That makes him an expert on education………………..how?
I read it and YOU should be the one weeping, the article shows no real data to prove your ASSumption. All you spout is words, no real numbers to prove anything.
Typical of the reichwing…………they want to move public tax dallars to the private and religious sector based only on their belief that “market forces” can cure all ills.
Give it up boxtop, you’re making a fool of yourself.
Then again, that is par for the course when reichwingers are concerned.
I’m off to bed, I have a busy week indoctrinating students in the “liberal philosophy”. [chortles]
…….boxtop only sees children as a test score………..what an arse.
one last thing……………I may have got your messiah wrong. I presume he is the one associated with:
The Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace is a conservative public policy think tank and library founded in 1919 by U.S. President Herbert Hoover located at, but not affiliated with, Stanford University, his alma mater.
You are even more of a moron than I thought boxtop………………..a conservative “thinktank”…………..hell, that’s an oxymoron!
Yeah and boxy is a salesman Apophis.
We have the internet now. His sort is rapidly becoming obsolete.
Is there a way we can address our needs and work toward solving our problems? Our students sure deserve to have adults who can take care of things while they prepare to take care of us.
KSGolfnut
Posted August 17, 2008 at 8:51 am | Permalink
There is NO excuse that the Wichita public schools are dilapidated in when compared with the schools of Andover, Derby, Maize, Goddard…
I’ll be voting ‘Yes’
KsGolf – we are in agreement – at least fundamentally. I’m one of the voters/taxpayers in Goddard 265 who has voted for and paid bonds to have the good schools we have. And, I pay a higher mill levy in 265 than taxpayers in 259.
Welcome aboard!
Oh my, my!!!! Notice how upset Apophis, Oedipus to me (look it up), is getting. What a joke he is, afraid others will discover his scam of the public with regards to his public education farce.
“Patrick J Wolf, an Electrical Engineer”, that you attack, but don’t even support your attack with any fact or references, has no personal benefit to gain by extorting increasing more wasted educational dollars from the public. Not so you Oedipus. You are the one we should question, and examine, as to just what you are producing educationally.
BlueJay, I should really just ignore you, you are meaningless.
Actually, part of the problem with the education system is how they train educators. They give degrees in disciplines through the Education Colleges at universities, instead of gleaning from the various college disciplines.
For example, a science major in Chemistry will have different requirements for completing his/her Bachelor of Science degree than one trained through the Education College for the same discipline. By different, I mean that the Education Science major will receive less science education classes than the pure science major.
I think this method makes for inferior teachers as the actual disciplines are not taught as thoroughly if the educators would have gotten their academic degrees with full standing in the college of their discipline.
I like the old method, really old, but it worked. Educators got their degrees in their discipline and then got credentials to be an educator.
Watered down teachers is not what we need in schools.
“BlueJay, I should really just ignore you, you are meaningless.”
Yeah and your next post comes from obsolescence.
Salesman? I didn’t even know we still had those.
KSGolfnut
Posted August 17, 2008 at 8:51 am
“There is NO excuse that the Wichita public schools are dilapidated in when compared with the schools of Andover, Derby, Maize, Goddard…”
There is no excuse, I agree, but it has to do with mismanagement and responsible allocation of resources. Not just spending more….wastefully.
lindainks writes;
“I won’t vote for this school bond issue! I will work to improve our public schools. I will gladly give to any teacher the amount I would have paid in increased taxes if the school bond was passed. I want real change. I want change that makes a difference in our students chances for an improved education! I want each student in Wichita public schools to have every opportunity for success.
The proposed bond issue does not solve any problems! It doesn’t do anything to ensure any child’s education will be better!”
AMEN SISTER ‘lindainks55′, AMEN!!!!
“Salesman? I didn’t even know we still had those.”
BlueJay…get off your lazy ass and go to work…you’ll find the world revolves around salesmen. Nothing happens without them.
I choose to work in sales. I have two paramedical registrations/certifications and licenses to go alone with those as well as a baccalaureate degree in business, but chose to own my own company and sell/in-service/educate.
And, I am sure to your great irritation I have done quite well the last 12 years at it.
BlueJay…you really should at least try working instead of trying to talk society into simply providing for you.
I think you have a valid point, Regular! WSU College of Education right now is in BIG trouble. I don’t know that they can pass NCATE and are dangerously close to losing their accreditation. They’ve recently (this year?) put in a new dean who seems unable to achieve the improvements needed, in fact seems oblivious. I know teachers come from other schools and locations, but this is a major concern. Education seems to be in trouble at many different levels in Kansas.
So the solution to the problem at the 259 level is pass a bond issue?
Apophis Posted August 17, 2008 at 9:50 pm |
“………..again no QUANTITATIVE data boxtop.”
You didn’t even look at the data jerk. There are several studies sighted with references given.
Open your eyes and shut your mouth for once.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1467036/school_voucher_programs_what_the_research_says_about_parental_school/
………I didn’t look at any QUANTITATIVE because there is none. All that is shown is a reichwing interpretation of anecdotal evidence.
Boxtop thinks he knows it all, he obviously does not. Maybe YOU should open your eyes and shut your mouth. Vouchers don’t work.
“Vouchers don’t work.” by Oedipus
Of course they work Oedipus, they give people a choice, something you hate because it threatens you as it very well should.
Gentlemen, wouldn’t it be true that IF vouchers were valuable to an urban family where many school choices exist, they would not be valuable to the rural family without such school choices? Couldn’t it be that BOTH of you are partially correct and we could move past this to putting our heads together and trying to find solutions for the big problems we have with public education?
Let’s try that last link again, just in case Oedipus can’t figure out how to copy and paste it into the address bar.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_12a.htm
linda,
Thank you for trying to be the ‘peacemaker’, but I doubt Oedipus wants that, and would even argue with you, someone trying to look at it with an open mind.
Boxlock, I’m also not in favor of vouchers. And I don’t know Apophis but I think he wants the very best for all children and although all of us here on this board argue too much and step out of line, this subject of making sure every child in this great country has the best opportunity for the best education possible is one we can all agree on. The devil seems to be in the details of how we get to our shared goal.
linda,
I am very much in favor of educational vouchers as it gives families a choice. It sponsors more ‘ownership’ in a child’s education.
I am a big believer in the individual, and believe that’s where excellence comes from not from large bureaucratic systems.
I am an example of what making a choice can do. I was somewhat lost at one of the large Wichita high schools, not really engaged or interested but getting by. I chose to attend a small rural town high school to see what it was like after getting an invitation from a cousin and his family. I flourished there, loved it.
I chose, I engaged, I succeeded.
Vouchers take the cost of educating the student utilizing one out of the public sector, a savings there. As I, and many others, have noticed and pointed out private schools get much more for their dollars spent in performance, so those same dollars go further. What’s to fear except for those that don’t want the competition, or that don’t want to give families choice.
Think if a family could get that $12,000+ to send their child to a school of their chose, or even half that that the public school spend.
Listen, I believe in public schools too, I just think they can do a lot better, and simply throwing more and more and more money at it under the lie “it’s for the children” is a bunch of bull crap. They have more than enough as it is.
People already have “choice”. You can live anywhere you want and attend the schools in that community.
What boxtop wants is to divert tax dollars that should go to community schools to the private and religious sectors. He wants to be able to make a profit and the expense of our children and grandchildren.
I will never accept that.
“People already have “choice”. You can live anywhere you want and attend the schools in that community.”
You know that is a lie!!! Many simply don’t have the resources to live anywhere they would like.
I am talking of giving people a choice in where they can send their own children for and good education.
Vouchers would not divert money from education at all, it would all be used totally to educate. Why should a family that wants a good education be forced to send them to a public school it that school shows poor performance. Why should they pay taxes to a public school if they are also paying to have them attend a private school and not costing the public system the cost of educating their child.
Oedipus, you are a millstone around the neck of parents that want a good education for their children.
Oh…and by the way, did you look at the results of the studies I provided proving the effectiveness of vouchers and choice….of course not as that contradicts you agenda of self protection at the expense of the children.
Boxtop only wants “choices” that benefits the profits of the private sector investors and religious schools.
It doesn’t matter how you spin it boxtop, there is no benefit to our children in vouchers.
You didn’t read the results and conclusions of the studies I provided which prove that.
Of course there are many benefits for the children…just maybe not for guys like you.
Private school and religious schools don’t operate for profit….they operate to provide a better education and give people choice. You stand for not doing that.
“You know that is a lie!!! Many simply don’t have the resources to live anywhere they would like.”
OMG!!!!!
This from the poster who constantly says if I want gay marriage so badly I should move to Massachusetts?
heh. heheheh. HEHEHEHE. HEE HEE HEEE. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh, MAN. You just cant make this stuff up!
“which prove that.” intended to read;
‘which prove that vouchers help improve scores and other out comes and result in both parents and kids rating their choose in schools higher.’
kfg, back in your stall.
The Educational Case Against Vouchers
Student achievement ought to be the driving force behind any education reform initiative. See what research says about the relationship between vouchers and student achievement.
Americans want consistent standards for students. Where vouchers are in place — Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Florida — a two-tiered system has been set up that holds students in public and private schools to different standards.
NEA and its affiliates support direct efforts to improve public schools. There is no need to set up new threats to schools for not performing. What is needed is help for the students, teachers, and schools who are struggling.
The Social Case Against Vouchers
A voucher lottery is a terrible way to determine access to an education. True equity means the ability for every child to attend a good school in the neighborhood.
Vouchers were not designed to help low-income children. Milton Friedman, the “grandfather” of vouchers, dismissed the notion that vouchers could help low-income families, saying “it is essential that no conditions be attached to the acceptance of vouchers that interfere with the freedom of private enterprises to experiment.”
A pure voucher system would only encourage economic, racial, ethnic, and religious stratification in our society. America’s success has been built on our ability to unify our diverse populations.
The Legal Case Against Vouchers
About 85 percent of private schools are religious. Vouchers tend to be a means of circumventing the Constitutional prohibitions against subsidizing religious practice and instruction.
Look folks, the OLD East High Pool is an open, vacant, ugly, unused court, with no useful purpose.
Last time around, we took out the “old” pool, and put NOTHING in its place. NOTHING! It is an empty shell now, open space with no purpose.
We did not put “science labs” in the pool area. The science labs are in a DIFFERENT location.
Then, we RENTED space from a local gym, a local gym which ALSO did not have the “regulation” pool size.
There is no way that the swim team can have the same, morning and after school swim schedule this way.
The existing students were completely denied ANY swiming pool at all, for all of these years.
This was horrible planning, Apophis.
Also, you do NOT know what you are talking about.
Go out to East High and ask where the pool used to be, would you?
The Political Landscape
Each year, about $65 million dollars is spent by foundations and individuals to promote vouchers. In election years, voucher advocates spend even more on ballot measures and in support of pro-voucher candidates.
In the words of political strategist, Grover Norquist, “We win just by debating school choice, because the alternative is to discuss the need to spend more money…”
Despite desperate efforts to make the voucher debate about “school choice” and improving opportunities for low-income students, vouchers remain an elitist strategy. From Milton Friedman’s first proposals, through the tuition tax credit proposals of Ronald Reagan, through the voucher proposals on ballots in California, Colorado, and elsewhere, privatization strategies are about subsidizing tuition for students in private schools, not expanding opportunities for low-income children.
Apophis, someday we’ll meet and we can speak of education. I can’t do it anymore here. I need to go do something more pleasant like bang my head against a brick wall.
Read the GAO report on vouchers:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d01914.pdf
Check the salary database for salaried employees of our school district. There are 4,557 Wichita school district employees listed and the bottom of these salaries is greater than the top pay of teachers! Please check it out! And then see if you can justify voting for a school bond issue!
http://www.kansas.com/800/story/495800.html?appSession=92822859487596
Thanks Apophis for providing that study report from the GAO about vouchers. It appears, along with all the other studies, including Harvard’s own, that School Vouchers are a very positive thing. :)
Thanks for supporting the progressive idea of School Vouchers. :)
ictBest, how could you read the GAO report and come to the conclusion that “School Vouchers are a very positive thing”?
Here is a direct quote from the study:
“The contract researcher teams for Cleveland and Milwaukee found little or
no statistically significant differences in voucher students’ achievement
test scores compared to public school students”
Vouchers are neither progressive nor a good idea.
I understand we all see what we choose to see, that we come at everything from our own unique perspective, but some are very skilled at seeing what isn’t even there. Why would a person even bother seeking knowledge, information if they won’t consider it?
Vouchers have not proven to increase student success in the classroom.
Did you read recently where some faith-based courses can’t get college credit? If people want to teach with the Bible as the ultimate reference that is their right, but it won’t replace a solid education that gets a student through admission requirements. You may limit your knowledge while the world moves past you.
Thanks for the share!