Wal-Mart is mobilizing thousands of store managers and department supervisors around the country to warn that if Democrats win power in November, they’ll likely change federal law to make it easier for workers to unionize companies, the Wall Street Journal reported. The horror. The articled added: “The Wal-Mart human-resources managers who run the meetings don’t specifically tell attendees how to vote in November’s election, but make it clear that voting for Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama would be tantamount to inviting unions in, according to Wal-Mart employees who attended gatherings in Maryland, Missouri and other states.”
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244 Comments
That’s right. If Democrats win then Wal-mart employees will be looking forward to better wages, health care, lower unemployment and Wal-mart’s will be busier because people will have more money to spend.
1.
Maggotpunk
Posted August 4, 2008 at 6:08 am | Permalink
That’s right. If Democrats win then Wal-mart employees will be looking forward to better wages, health care, lower unemployment and Wal-mart’s will be busier because people will have more money to spend.
————————————–
fewer stores, less employment, more taken from their paycheck.
People will have to drive further to the nearest Walmart because the others will have closed down.
Wal-marts only close down because Wal-mart wants to. Higher wages means more disposable income therefore increased economic activity. That’s why the economy of areas that increase the minimum wage improve. On the other hand, when you concentrate wealth into the hands of a few then you end up with things like economic recessions, you know, kinda like today’s economy.
fewer stores, less employment, more taken from their paycheck.
People will have to drive further to the nearest Walmart because the others will have closed down.
Hopefully that will tell Walmart Employees to VOTE DEMOCRATIC!
Walmart is not going to convince me to vote republican this election. McCain makes me sick.
Walmart has already demonstrated how it deals with unions…they closed a store as employees were close to unionizing.
I am not saying they are right or wrong, but Walmart has demonstrated how they deal with it. Last time I looked, nobody is tied up, dragged kicking and screaming and forced to work there. It is not quite like the collective farms of the former Soviet Union.
Walmart deals with retail unions in other countries and they seem to survive OK.
“Last time I looked, nobody is tied up, dragged kicking and screaming and forced to work there. It is not quite like the collective farms of the former Soviet Union.”
Right on Raptor. I think a lot of companies think they are or would like to be like the Soviet Union. As Americans, we can choose to work for a company or not. The sooner they learn that the better.
I don’t think any company can force a person to vote a certain way either. If I felt I was being forced by my employer to vote a certain way, I could either quit and find another job or I could simply say I would vote the way they suggest then vote the way I want.
Sometimes I think people forget that we have privacy in that voting booth and it is no one else’s business the way we have decided to vote. And they can never prove which way we voted. This is America, believe it or not, and I say “Hallelujah” to this but we have privacy in our voting booths and we can quit our jobs and find other jobs when we want. Nobody can force us to do anything unless we allow them too.
Well they can close up their doors everywhere then, and then what will the greedy cheap bastards do for money. It’d probably be good for us as mom and pops would start opening back up, and small towns would start to thrive again.
Instead of buying cheap chinese crap, we’d be starting up our home jobs again.
YES UNIONIZE WALMART
I know if some boss came in and told me…I don’t want you to have a choice to unionize or not, I’d be voting FOR My choice.
I am so sorry for the soul less drones who work for this monolith.
Has anyone else heard them FORCED to sing the Wal mart loyalty song? I have, several years ago.
What are their mid managers warning them against? That they might get to REFUSE to be good little sheep?
The wall mart employee safety net is, If The Majority of Employees vote NO, The Won’t Unionize!
It’d be great if people had to commute to China to buy their junk!
When you drive up the cost of doing business you also drive up the cost of merchandise. The very people you say you want to help will not be able to afford some of the things they do today when the costs go up.
People shop Walmart because of the prices not who they are.
ANYTHING that makes Chi-Mart squirm is fine by me.
“Wal-Mart The High Cost of Low Prices”… a good movie to get a little understanding.
Google video that one. It’s free to watch and you can use that money saved to go buy something from them if it will make you feel better.
Vote for the Union Label
So we can put old wrinkly Mabel,
Out of a job.
The only thing she does,
Is greet people at the door,
Her dentures all a gleaming
And polyester suit a beaming,
Poor Mabel’s days are numbered
When the Union comes, she’ll get lumbered…
Cause she’s seventy one years old you see.
When Unions come she’ll be an ex-employee,
Cause Union has a rule that sixty five is max.
So poor old Mabel will get the Union ax.
Guess old Mabel will starve on her widow’s pay,
Cause Union reps would not let her work her way.
She’ll have to shop some where else as well
As an Unionized Walmart will be expensive as Hell.
Eagle
You act as though Union organizing is all clean and above-board.
It is not.
And it might get worse.
Right now, employees are protected by a “secret ballot” when voting for or against a Union.
By and large, it is the pro-Union employees that use very aggressive tactics.
Many employees that would vote “no” in a secret ballot will be intimidated into a “yes” vote, if they have to make their vote public.
This is un-American.
Vote “no” and get your house and car vandalized.
Vote “no” and get nails on your driveway.
Vote “no” and get nasty phone calls.
I have never, not even once, seen an investigative story, by the Eagle, as it pertains to Union harassment and Union law breaking.
Liberal journalists obviously believe that, “The end justifies the means” — as the MSM NEVER really talks about crooked Union leaders that go to prison, or about Union thugs who terrorize their co-workers.
Yes, that is what the Union lobbyists are pushing for:
PUBLIC votes, on all Union organizing matters.
“Many employees that would vote “no” in a secret ballot will be intimidated into a “yes” vote, if they have to make their vote public.”
You mean…GASP! they would have to be held accountable for their actions and beliefs?
They might have to answer to a good greater than their own ability to suck up?
BJ
Would you like all elections to be public?
We respect the “secret ballot” as something sacred, when we vote for our political leaders.
Union thugs want a public vote, so that they can single out those who disagree, and make life miserable for them.
“Would you like all elections to be public?”
Why not?
I am PROUD of who I am and what I believe. It’s not something I would even THINK of hiding.
Oh, maybe that’s the difference between me and you.
“Union thugs want a public vote, so that they can single out those who disagree, and make life miserable for them.”
Huh. The company already HAS that ability. Why are you opposed to the workers having a say too?
You mean the way that anti-choicers try to beat up anyone who votes against their wishes? Grow a backbone. Union terror should be addressed, and that kind of thing punished profusely.
What other group believes the ends justify the means….I think you belong to it Paul….oh yeah Operation Rescue.
All Walmart stores in China are unionized, 105 stores employing 48,500 people. I wonder why, is Walmart afraid of losing it’s prime source of supply by not cowtowing to the Chinese governments’ tolerated unions? The last contract signed by Walmart and the Chinese union gives 8% increases in each of the 2 years it runs. That’s a pretty hefty increase.
It is so predictable. The screw you I’ve got mine people are all anti-union. And us liberals are pro-union. Been in a union, it worked out well for us.
Again, if employers would treat employees like humans instead of chattel, we probably wouldn’t need unions.
So Regular, and all the other huff ‘n puffs, go ahead and huff and puff about union thugs, yada, yada, but, and I know this won’t even start to change your minds, unions are a positive answer to the commercial thugs running the businesses.
Wow, got myself all worked up. Think I’ll go out and ask the hawker Beechcraft folks if I can walk the picket line for a while.
Dennis
JR – is at least honest. On this topic, anyway.
What he’s really saying is that union organizing (which I have no opposition to, in principle) is perfectly acceptable – in fact preferrable – if operated under “union thug” rules. Intimidation, threats, violence, no problem! As long as it’s done for what HE decides is the “greater good.”
One does not have to do a lot of research to know just how true this kind of tactic has historically been. JR simply attempts to legitimize it.
It never fails: scratch a liberal, find a totalitarian. And a man after every totalitarian’s heart, JR is. It’s all for “your own good – the greater good,” of course. But of course only the “liberal” is qualified to determine – FOR you – what “your own good” is. How nice of him to do my thinking for me.
To HELL with Wal Mart and their management mentality on an obvious attempt to rig an election. I’m mean,DUH! Now with over 2000 trucking companies closed due to gas prices, WAL MART raised prices due to increased prices of gas for their own fleet of trucks. Who cares if they have to close stores? To dang many of ‘em now, like Walgreens. Jobs may be lost but those keeping jobs will come out better on the back end of whatever the Democrats do to reduce the crunch.
“Intimidation, threats, violence, no problem!”
What does the company do GMC?
“Shut up, show up, do as you are told!”
Isn’t that about right?
Hmmmmmmm – you don’t think union leadership would, in fact, be thinking of THEIR good, do you? Accomplished in the “name of” the workers?
Hmmmmm? We’ve never seen that before, have we??????
The screw you I’ve got mine people are all anti-union. And us liberals are pro-union.
Riiiiiiiiight. Liberals NEVER think of their interest – it’s all about the “greater good.”
If you buy that, I’ve got a bridge I’ll sell you . . . cheap.
I don’t think we need union advice from a government employee there GMC.
There is nothing duplicitous or intimidating in me. I’m as honest as the day is long.
So, if the guy next to me, doing the same thing I am, is ready willing and able to stick me in the back to get ahead?
I just want to know about it.
As noted before, JR, you have a simple solution. Don’t like company you work for?
Quit.
And I’ll agree with one poster above – the best union organizer in the world is stupid management. GOOD management understands that quality employees are the backbone of their business, and they’ll pay competitive market wages to get them. Paying to get quality employees makes the business better, and will in the long run make more money for the business.
Of course, that same quality management would also summarily fire endless carping complainers like JR . . . perhaps that says a lot.
I forgot to add that the bibical definition for Republican is tax collector. Think about it….it fits!
I’m as honest as the day is long.
Your history of posting here, JR, abundantly displays otherwise.
BTW – the GOOD employer noted above: he’ll have no union issues. His employees will have no need for a union.
“As noted before, JR, you have a simple solution. Don’t like company you work for?
Quit. ”
I did.
But the subject here is Wal mart workers.
How do THEY quit? Where do they go?
Some of them might try to start a business.
And Wal mart would quickly crush them.
I don’t admire those here in their attempts to defend the indefensible Wal mart.
Is that right GMC?
Care to catch me in a lie?
Labor Unions attract thugs and criminals.
This has always been true:
http://www.unionfacts.com/articles/crimeFraud.cfm
In 2005 there were 97 criminal convictions of labor union leaders.
BALANCE is what we need.
Those who truly want to protect workers will work for a balance of power between labor and management.
Yes, there are bad companies. Personally, I know about a manager who had a drinking problem, and took a nap on a stack of pallets and cardboard.
The truck driver did not know he was there, and loaded him into his semi and took him all the way to KC, from Wichita.
It was kind of funny. I was glad for a labor union, in that case, as the truck driver had done nothing wrong, and this particular manager had friends and family members on the Corporate Board.
I support the right to organize, since people are not perfect and, therefore, management will never be perfect.
I support limits on Unions, since people are not perfect and Union leaders will never be perfect.
“GMC70,” sandbagging at work, gives us –
“…he’s really saying that union organizing (which I have no opposition to, in principle) is perfectly acceptable – in fact preferrable – if operated under “union thug” rules.”
Yeah, right.
There’s nothing wrong with Management Thug “rules,” now is there?
Wal-Mart is notorious for firing any employee who even talks about a union.
Wage hikes are not always a good thing. After the new minimum wage went into effect, my sons hours were cut back the very next week. Most companies interested in the bottom line budget in dollars, not hours. Unions do not comprehend that a healthy bottom line is job security.
Why do the unions want public elections? If it’s not for intimidation tactics then what is it’s purpose?
I don’t admire those here in their attempts to defend the indefensible Wal mart.
While I’m hardly “defending” Wal-Mart, but simply noting that union organizing by JR’s rules amounts to, put simply, criminal extortion, I must say that I’m shocked and saddened to know that I am not admired by JR.
Gosh. And all that time I thought we were buds . . .
[sarcasm off]
Ya know, if the Mob did what JR proposes, we’d call it a protection racket. Curiously, the Mob has a long history of union ties . . . coincidence?
Wage hikes are NO problem, as long as productivity keeps pace. THAT is economics 101. If hikes outstrip productivity, you get wage inflation.
One of the reasons the economy was so good in the late ’90’s is because we made HUGE productivity gains. Mostly thanks to the internet and innovation in technology.
But that low hanging fruit really isnt there anymore. We have to work harder and innovate more to improve productivity. And couple that with huge inflation in prices for inelastic demand items like fuel, health care and food…
…and you get “back to the seventies” for sure!
Care to catch me in a lie?
I don’t need to. Nathan already has. That’s enough.
“sunflower5″ asks –
“Why do the unions want public elections? If it’s not for intimidation tactics then what is it’s purpose?”
Actually, it’s an indication of union courage.
Without the right to organize publicly, outfits such as Wal-Mart can fire pro-union employees for simply mentioning a union; at work, in the break room, at home, on the phone….
Union-busting management fears the bandwagon effect. If co-workers saw just how many of their peers were pro-union — and are assured they won’t be punished for their pro-union vote — more might step up.
The election part of the process is how the law reads. The organizing process is what it really addresses.
Now, there’s certainly a good chance that the drones who sing Wal-Mart songs at the beginning of every shift might vote against collective bargaining. Them’s the breaks. If it’s the only place in town that’s hiring (as it is in many Kansas small towns), it might be too much to expect the granny-at-the-door to think about the common good of her fellow workers. She knows from her years of wrangling shopping carts that Wal-Mart managers fire people every day for specious reasons.
Labor is willing to accept a public vote. Why isn”t management?
Isn’t walmart afraid of Obama backing letting employees just sign that they want a union, rather than having balloting?
Monkey
You are WRONG
You send a sealed card in, saying you want a vote on a union, currently.
The card does NOT go to Walmart, or to any other company. It goes to the Union.
The Unions want to call a meeting of ALL employees, and have them vote, in an open meeting, up or down, on having a Union.
“Wal-Mart’s worries center on a piece of legislation known as the Employee Free Choice Act, which companies say would enable unions to quickly add millions of new members. “We believe EFCA is a bad bill and we have been on record as opposing it for some time,” Mr. Tovar said. “We feel educating our associates about the bill is the right thing to do.”
Other companies and groups are also making a case against the legislation to workers. Laundry company Cintas Corp., which has been fighting a multiyear organizing campaign by Unite Here, relaunched a Web site July 14 called CintasVotes. The site instructs visitors to take action by telling members of Congress to oppose the legislation.
“We feel it’s important that our employee partners fully understand the implications that the Employee Free Choice Act could have on their work environment and benefits,” said Heather Trainer, a Cintas spokeswoman.”
—————–
It is called education. No one said they were told how to vote. Read the article something the Eagle knows most blogger here don’t ever do. The union is at it’s lowest membership ever and need the help of government to regain strength. Actually look at the benefits and salaries paid to Walmart employees. Walmart and Cintas know this will impact their bottom line and like any successful business they are aware before the fat hits the fire and not when they hear the sizzle.
BJ and Pmom have such a hatred of the ‘establishment’ that their judgement is irrational. Cooler heads must prevail. Unions had a place in the labor movement. Today it is ran by the fat cats BJ claims to despise. He just doesn’t see that.
Monkey workers are still protected by fair labor practices whether under union ‘protection’ or not. That is why union membership has gone down. While Kansas is a ‘right to work’ state you still have the right to a fair work place with no harrassment whether sexual or mental or whatever. This is why companies will keep paper trails when an employee is disciplined. Walmart does this. Gross insubordination on its face is grounds for immediate dismissal. That would be refusing to do something your boss told you to do unless it was illegal, yelling at said boss or at a customer or fellow employee. In other words actions that should get you canned. Unions take away the companies right to fire without the unions OK. What percentage of Walmart emloyees company wide do you think are complaining about pay or benefits?
Once again the eagle has thrown in the red herring and the pirranhas jumped on.
And grammy and all the other tightyrighties have again shown their contempt for the working person.
Dennis
Right to Work state means you are entitled to the same pay and benefits from the same employer, whether you played any role or not in acquiring the increase in pay and benefits.
It does not guarantee any job rights not defined by other state and federal legislation, which can be gotten around by a creative employer.
Interesting analysis:
“The screw you I’ve got mine people are all anti-union.”
Let’s look at it a little closer, shall we? First, how did the ‘I got mine’ people get theirs in the first place? Was it by hard work? Getting an education? Not needing to be protected by a union? Is that a bad thing? Obviously, according to some posters here, it is.
I am not anti union–worked in one once and it did absolutely nothing for me except take my dues money. I was admonished more than once about working too much and making other people look bad. I was promoted into management…got there by my own hard work. That is not anti union, just where I have been.
Dangerous legislation!
“Boehner said the bill really was about “taking care of union bosses. … This is an effort to help them get more members, to make it easier for them to sign them up and to intimidate them to sign cards.”
The legislation, also called the card check bill, would certify a union as soon as a majority of workers at a plant signed cards authorizing it. Currently, employers can require elections, overseen by the National Labor Relations Board, on whether a union should be recognized.
The labor rights group American Rights at Work said that, in the run-up to such elections, 80 percent of employers hire union-busting consultants and 90 percent force employees to attend one-on-one anti-union meetings with their supervisors.
The legislation would toughen penalties against employers who violate worker rights during organizing drives and set up a binding arbitration process to prevent companies from thwarting a new union by bargaining in bad faith on an initial contract.”
I’ve heard that in order to swing the boeing sale vote, workers which the company learned had voted against the sale were targeted for ‘lay off’ before the second election. Throwing the vote in Onex/boeing’s favor.
Kansas is also an “employment at will” state; this means that the employer-employee relationship may be severed by either party, for cause, or without cause, absent a contract (actual or implied) or legal prohibition (generally on the employer) to the contrary.
The “shop steward” is almost always the most bitter, least productive, least loyal person on the shop floor.
Unions are a necessary evil.
But, they are evil.
Companies do not promote the nose to the grindstone types. They milk them for all they’re worth,then dispose of them when they break down.
The ones that make it to mgmt. are invariably the ‘yes men’ that will flock around a supervisor/mgr. every time he comes to the floor. (The other type will hardly acknowledge the mgr. and keep on doing what he gets paid for.
That has been my experience.
avtolle
Posted August 4, 2008 at 12:28 pm | Permalink
Kansas is also an “employment at will” state; this means that the employer-employee relationship may be severed by either party, for cause, or without cause, absent a contract (actual or implied) or legal prohibition (generally on the employer) to the contrary.
————-
Technically true but its employees are also protected from unfair labor practices.
Right to work means it is my job to give and mine to take away. Employers know that paper trails need to be in place to protect them from frivolous lawsuits. And a good business won’t burn a good employee.
There is much to be said for both sides but after being a United Rubber Worker for 23 years my husband found he was out of a job when BF Goodrich moved the bulk of their production to Mexico. This because the union wouldn’t go to 24/7 workweek. Shutting down and restarting equipment weekly was very costly. Our dues bought us nothing.
This to say that any well ran company will be looking at the future before he hits them. Five years plan projections are a very large part of successful business practices.
“okobserver” alleged –
“…workers are still protected by fair labor practices whether under union ‘protection’ or not.”
Yeah, right.
Shrub’s Department of Labor races to the protection of Wal-Mart employees who have the audacity to mention the word “union.”
You know better. Yeah, even you know better.
“Gross insubordination on its face is grounds for immediate dismissal.”
And just what constitutes “gross insubordination?”
I’d suspect that Wal-Mart’s basic business model being based on exploiting a non-union workforce might qualify. Don’t you?
(Well, even if you don’t, companies such as Wal-Mart certainly do.)
“Unions take away the companies right to fire without the unions OK.”
Perhaps you should look at most non-union employer/employee hiring agreements. Without a union, the employer “…retains the right to dismiss any employee for any reason…”
But omigod!
A union might have the power to expect a… a… REASON?!
“What percentage of Walmart emloyees company wide do you think are complaining about pay or benefits?”
Quite a few, actually. Otherwise Wal-Mart unionization would be an absolute non-issue, wouldn’t it?
I’ve known Wal-Mart employees who hired on for the promised (albeit crappy) health care insurance after they’d worked for six months. Several were fired in the last week of their sixth month (”due to the economy”) but were encouraged to re-apply “in case something opens up.” And within a few days they were re-hired… and the six-month clock for health benefits stared from Day One.
One friend of mine — a single mother just trying to keep ends together — says she’d sat through four “New” Employees’ Orientation four times, only to return to her old job but with no accumulated seniority. But no one else in town is hiring.
“The “shop steward” is almost always the most bitter, least productive, least loyal person on the shop floor.”
Define what that loyalty is supposed to be to?
The idea of being…LOYAL to an employer/exploiter is at odds with a respectable persons’ dignity.
I would think.
Oh and councilor GMC?
You charged me with lying. Substance please or withdraw the charge.
Well Monkey if I were this mother I would be looking for training any way I could get it so I wouldn’t be at the mercy of Wal-Mart.
I too know several Walmart employees and have never heard this story. They seem to think the benefits are good. They have a 401k and decent pay for the amount of training they brought to the table.
I am not taking up for Walmart. I really don’t like the way they put many small retailers out of business. But this isn’t about their business practices but about union representation. The editor tried to say that Walmart was telling its employees how to vote. Not so. They were telling managers and supervisors what the future looked like under a republican or democrat administration. Good business planning. The mark of a successful company.
Paper trails are every bit as much for getting around the federal/state labor protections as they are for protection against frivolous law suits. If you want to get rid of employee a, you just document every time you see him doing anything not kosher, even though you disregard same for employees b & c &…
It will take more than Wal Mart to convince me to vote for a crooked slob like John McCain.
McCain is not competent enough to be president of the Unites States.
He needs to return to the nursing home and just fade away.
BlueJay,
That would be when you insisted I had said that I would “wave my gun around” and that you read it.
Later you attempted to further modify what I said by saying that I said I was going to make liberals wet their pants.
“Companies do not promote the nose to the grindstone types. They milk them for all they’re worth,then dispose of them when they break down.
The ones that make it to mgmt. are invariably the ‘yes men’ that will flock around a supervisor/mgr. every time he comes to the floor.”
Been there lived that.
BJ when you dismiss the employees loyalty to his employer you are defining one of the major problems we are seeing today. Employers don’t feel a loyalty to their employees like that experienced years ago. This makes a company pension a thing of the past. The company knows that loyalty is only their until their next gig comes along. This is one of the major complaints I have heard from workers at Spirit. They are given 401ks but are required to manage them theirselves. No longer will they have a company guaranteed pension.
Unions are big business just like a Boeing, a Walmart, a Hawker Beechcraft, etc… Look at the pay rate for the top union guys and the corruption at that level.
2 BlueJay lies-
1. BlueJay said I was Regular.
2. BlueJay said I was Nathan.
Both lies.
“okobserver” rationalizes –
“…this isn’t about their business practices but about union representation.”
No comment needed.
Your witness GMC.
Such as he is.
BlueJay,
I have your words in print in the open thread where you said them.
You can’t discredit the witness in such a case.
Prove it ANTI.
Oh and okie?
Loyalty should be earned.
The onus of that is on the person or organization in the superior negotiating position.
I have never worked anywhere that I felt I owed any “loyalty” to. I tend to think first of my co workers.
There was another lie, something about a “gated community” I believe it was. Eh, BlueJay?
I’d say he’s doing fine. Your words speak for themselves.
Res ipsa loquitur.
I tend to think first of my co workers.
Balony. You tend to think first, as do most of us, most of the time, of your self-interest. Anything less is a lie; mostly, lieing to ourselves.
Looks like Junior is playing attorney with a real attorney. Use terms he learned on TV from Court TV or Judge Judy’s show. :D
Oh, my: some of the incredibly STUPID comments I’ve seen here. And I was only skimming, some I might have gotten some misimpressions (I hope!).
To paraphrase:
Liberalism is totalitarism in disguise.
Employess should should show more loyalty to their employees–just like Wal-Mart and other union-busting, low-paying, crappy benefits, employee abusing mega-corporation is loyal to its employees.
In modern corporate America, every company has its propaganda, showing smiling employyes, blathering about their wonderful, positive corporate culture. The reality: employees are viewed as trespassers, an inconvenience to be endured for the sake of maintaining a certain share price. Their humanity is irrelevant, and they are expendable.
To get back to what sane, normal people call “reality,” companies always operate for maximize profit, and in the Walmart “cheap crap for cheap prices” model, this is precisely why Wal-Mart wants an antt-union president. Not a surprise.
But does anyone think it’s proper to use middle managers and supervisors to lobby the employees’ vote? Legal? I suppose.
But what happens when a suspervisor doesn’t want to go along with Bentonville’s master plan? Is “political shill” listed in the job description?
Observer: I can’t believe you are speaking about loyalty to employers. If you don’t think that the downsizing of the 1990s is a good reason why employee loyalty is gone, well then you have a very short memory.
Now, I can agree with you that Unions are just as greedy as companies are.
But please spare everyone the “where have you gone Joe Dimaggio” BS. Employee loyalty went away during the downsizing of the 1990s. No blame, just reality.
BJ and that could be why you are scraping to make ends meet. Employees don’t need an unhappy employee to always be causing friction in their workforce. I think you are entirely right in not working for the ‘man’.
The work world is better off because of your choice. Thanks.
Ok let’s go there …again…Nathan.
YOU threatened to bring a gun to a meet up and make people wet their pants.
How DID you plan to do that?
You own that problem not me.
And, given some of what you have posted here?
I guess I gotta be a liar.
Since it takes one to know one?
BlueJay,
I never said I was going to make people wet their pants nor did I make any threat.
The words “threat” and “make” are your lies, not my words.
“I guess I gotta be a liar.”-BJ
—–
BlueJay has an “Adult” moment. ;)
BlueJay,
You are also forgetting the part where you said that I had said I would be “waving my gun.”
Libs, if unions come into wal mart and wal mart is forced to raise the prices of their products considerably, what do you think will be the effect on the poor who rely on wal mart’s low prices for goods?
Not working for, with or in any close proximity to such as you okie, is my personal pleasure.
You’re welcome.
Actually Vet I was making a point that it is a double edged sword. The employees feel no loyalty and the company is protecting the bottom line.
What role does the lessening of the union role in labor have to do with this? Good question that might need answering.
Our experience with a union wasn’t good. I look at Hawker and see us years ago. Every 3 years we spent our entire savings to live on while the union was on strike to get us more money. You never made back in wages what you lost during the strike.
As a business owner I can see both sides. We furnish good salaries and benefits and our employees don’t have to pay union dues. Our employees work for us and not the union. Good for us and them. They know everyday they have a job. They don’t have to go to the union shop and hope they have a job.
Benefit both of us.
Combine the rise in cost of walmart products with the high fuel and energy costs that the Dems are promoting. This will create more poor people and further the gap between well off and poor. Will it not?
Anti this is a fact that the left won’t look at. The rise in unemployment the week the new minimum wage took effect went right by them.
Government and unions in business don’t make for a good business environment. Companies have to pay the rate that will help them retain their good employees. They don’t have to furnish as many entry level positions. They don’t have to hire those less able to contribute such as senior citizens and teens entering the work force.
Unions don’t look at these differences. They look at job labels. For this reason union representation in many cases loses jobs for it’s members.
“Every 3 years we spent our entire savings to live on while the union was on strike to get us more money. You never made back in wages what you lost during the strike.”
Ya know?
It’s not always about money.
In a place like Wal mart, or even in a union shop where there has not been a strike in some time, there is an attitude that workers are disposable figures on a ledger.
Not healthy for the workers. Not really healthy for the company.
The difference, without a union, is in who holds the power.
This country already HAS an upside down relationship between management and labor.
When someone works for someone else, they are effectively selling their freedom, among other things.
I for one will err on the side of protecting THAT person, and not his employer/exploiter.
“Anti this is a fact that the left won’t look at.”
—-
I see that, none of them can answer the question.
” They look at job labels. ”
You mean job codes?
Quite right! So they should.
Without that you have an employer who will force employees to perform tasks for which they are not being paid.
Like I said. Been there, done that.
BlueJay
Posted August 4, 2008 at 1:41 pm | Permalink
Ya know?
It’s not always about money.
——————–
Yes BJ when you are responsible parents with three young children it is about the money.
And to further the point we didn’t leave the union they left us. In the end our dues counted for nothing. Zip, nadda, zero.
You choose to roll over for the union. I choose to dictate my own future. I worked for the ‘man’ and drew a good salary for it. Was able to save and retire in relative comfort. Our business will furnish the same freedom for our employees. You made your choice and are sure it was the right one. You haven’t convinced me yet.
“Nathaniel” –
Assuming you were salivating at the prospect of showing up with a bunch of evil liberals at the meet-up with your concealed weapon, how would anyone know about it to “wet their pants?”
Only if if your weapon somehow were not “concealed.”
Whether that involves specifically “waving around” that handgun you now strap on your hip every time you leave your house is a matter of interpretation. You’re so afraid of the world you can’t imagine facing the real world without packing heat. Those of us in touch with reality generally associate your gun-lust with incipient paranoia.
I’ve attended picnics and barbecues and parties with people who were armed. Not a one of them gave me any hint that they did it to “make liberals wet their pants.”
Your stuff in this forum contributes to the belief of many of us that you’re constantly on the brink, have a short fuse, a hair-trigger.
That you, “boy,” don’t recognize that fact concerns us even more.
What, exactly, did the prospect of showing up at a picnic in the park with your weapon make you think that liberals would “wet their pants?”
BlueJay
Posted August 4, 2008 at 1:46 pm | Permalink
” They look at job labels. ”
You mean job codes?
Quite right! So they should.
Without that you have an employer who will force employees to perform tasks for which they are not being paid.
Like I said. Been there, done that.
—————–
I can tell you that as a comsumer when an employee tells me ‘that isn’t my job’ and the person that can grind meat is off now I won’t be back. The union just lost business for that store.
Yep job labels are a great thing!
If you are being paid by the hour then you should be able to multi-task. Everyone does unless in a union shop. My husband read more books when working union than he does as a retiree. The union told him to only do what they had agreed he could do in 8 hours. The rest of the time the men read or played cards. That is just crazy. Union priced themselves out of existence. They are dinosaurs with no useful function now. Their enrollment numbers reflect that.
Libs, if unions come into walmart and walmart is forced to raise the prices of their products considerably, what do you think will be the effect on the poor who rely on walmart’s low prices for goods?
Combine the rise in cost of walmart products with the high fuel and energy costs that the Dems are promoting. This will create more poor people and further the gap between well off and poor. Will it not?
The way the Liberals on the blog go on about a so-called comment Nathaniel made two years ago, should be changed from
‘wet their pants’
to
’soil their pants’
What a bunch of re-hashed, old hat, tired of it, re-tread, mental emetics.
It was two years ago, let it be, who cares?
Wastoids.
MonkeyHawk,
Again, I didn’t use the word “make” that is a fabrication of BlueJay’s.
The comment was one in jest, to make fun of the liberals like you, who routinely “wet their pants” at the prospect of someone carrying a gun.
I never said I would “make” anyone wet their pants.
I never said I would be waving my gun around.
I never “threatened” anyone.
Those are all fabrications by people like BlueJay.
I have already admitted the comment, in hindsight, was dumb. I have apologized repeatedely for making it.
Nothing I have ever posted here would lead any person to think the things you and others do unless you already think those things because of your being so anti-gun as you are.
GMC brought it here there “Regular”.
“If you are being paid by the hour then you should be able to multi-task. ”
Really? Who doesn’t?
Shouldn’t there be limits?
I was a union steward. I have literally hundreds of examples.
Should my intellectual property be taken from me and given to a lower paid new hire?
Should an employee be expected to perform tasks for which he is not compensated?
“Should an employee be expected to perform tasks for which he is not compensated?”
BJ this is an entirely different discussion. This goes to man to man discussions between the employee and the employer.
My husband was a union steward also. That is why I say they have lost their place. Obsolete, outdated, ineffectual. They are forcing good paying jobs offshore with unrealistic demands. IMOHO.
How many people who work at Wal-Mart can afford to buy a house on what they pay? Yep, those are some great jobs. I worked there and it was the worst experience of my life. Discrimination was rampant and you were made to be a “cheerleader” for Wal-Mart. They only paid minimum wage and made certain to work us enough hours that we could not get any benefits. Supposedly we were full-time, but they managed to only work us 32 hrs a week and then we were under the required time for benefits.
Let them close their stores. They are mostly dirty, with terrible quality China made crap. You should watch the show that has been on PBS several times about “Is Wal-Mart good for America?” Then just see how they are driving American companies out of business.
Maybe it is time for them to get a wake-up call.
“This goes to man to man discussions between the employee and the employer.”
Uh yeah. Thanks.
Without a union? Who wins that confrontation?
EVERY time.
BlueJay, if unions come into walmart and walmart is forced to raise the prices of their products considerably, what do you think will be the effect on the poor who rely on walmart’s low prices for goods?
Combine the rise in cost of walmart products with the high fuel and energy costs that the Dems are promoting. This will create more poor people and further the gap between well off and poor. Will it not?
Unions created the middle class in the West, period. Wages are only excessive when we have to compete with overseas communities whose lifestye and expectancy is considerably less than an industrial, developed, democratic society. Outsourcing will not end in China for when labor and other prices rise (and they surely will)ultracapialtists will simply move to the next horribly downtrodden, impoverised nation who will consider .25 per hr. real wealth. People pay more when they earn more and keeping our wages low only makes the West compete in the downward spiral with the Chinese on terms set by the ultracapitalists. Dofar, here we come!
“what do you think will be the effect on the poor who rely on walmart’s low prices for goods?”
I manage to get on reasonably well without Wal mart.
“My husband was a union steward also. That is why I say they have lost their place. Obsolete, outdated, ineffectual. They are forcing good paying jobs offshore with unrealistic demands.”
Oh so now hubby was a steward?
I call bs.
And what unrealistic demands do you refer to?
Is it your wish for American workers to live DOWN to the standards of say China?
So you can make more money?
Greed should get it’s own country and quit ruining this one.
They’ve opened the flood gates with globalization, and if they’re not closed again soon, the working class will all be at the same level. American workers at parity with less developed countries’ workers.
That’s not necessarily true Blue Jay. The more skills that an employee has, the more leverage that employee has over the employer. But, for the most part, the employee will not be able to dictate to the employer except in a contract style of employment.
However, freedom becomes paramount. Upthread, someone scoffed at you because of your lifestyle. I don’t. Anyone who wishes to be a member of the “spit and whittle club” should be allowed to. When freedom is replaced with, “thou shalt consider this a necessity.” then it is easier to exploit the worker.
I manage to get on reasonably well without Wal mart.
—
Good for you, I do the same. However millions depend on their products to stay within their budgets. You didn’t answer the question.
Sursum you are right to a point. But what happens when the union wins a wage increasel. The cost of the salaried personell goes up beause they should be compensated in addition to the union workers. Then management must also be given an increase just because. Then the cost of the product has to go up because that is how it is paid for. We consumers are then paying more for the product and go to our employers to pay us better. It is a vicious cycle that is always ongoing.
BJ mano to mano works if you are a good worker. If you have proved your value to your employer you don’t need a middle man to speak for you. I have been in that position many times and have improved my lot every time.
Merit pay is a good incentive for productive workers. The union doesn’t have a part here. Under a union a widget puncher hires in at a certain wage. After a predetermined period he moves up to making what all of the other widget punchers are making even if the widget puncher next to him has 20 years senority on him. This is how a union works. As a union worker you have just given up all of your job knowledge to the new guy on the block.
Many more will have to rely on Walmart if you and yours have your way BlueJay. Democrats, promoting poverty and government reliance since….way to long.
Vet in fairness you would have to look at the history of BJ on this blog. He makes much of his freedom to do as he pleases while telling us that he son doesn’t have health insurance because he can’t afford it. He thinks the government should be furnishing this for him. He constantly puts downs others because they either work for the ‘man’ or in my case because we are the dreaded employer.
I agree he should celebrate his independence every day of his life but he shouldn’t put down others because they don’t agree with him.
“BJ mano to mano works if you are a good worker. If you have proved your value to your employer you don’t need a middle man to speak for you.”
The company invariable has a middle man speaking for it.
Therein lies a lot of the problem.
True story.
The shop got some new technology. Computerized equipment.
Union says that called for one higher labor grade.
Not a whole lot more money. But it’s all money.
This was a nice foreman, one of the last promoted from the floor. He quit and went back to the floor after a year or two.
Anywho, he comes to me and tells me I need to learn to run this machine.
“Ok, when do I get my upgrade?”
“Well, that’s not up to me.”
“Sorry, I can’t do it then.”
( Now at this point? Without a union, I am out of a job.)
Now they managed to get some of the junior employees to run the thing.
And I continued to fight for THEIR labor upgrade. I got it too.
“BlueJay, if unions come into walmart and walmart is forced to raise the prices of their products considerably, what do you think will be the effect on the poor who rely on walmart’s low prices for goods?
Combine the rise in cost of walmart products with the high fuel and energy costs that the Dems are promoting. This will create more poor people and further the gap between well off and poor. Will it not?”
Well, if you believe in the free market and capitalism, that’s an incredibly stupid thing to say.
If there is a market for cheap crap made overseas and sold on the backs of low paid and poorly treated employees…
wont the free market fill that niche with another such company?
not to worry
While Kansas is a ‘right to work’ state you still have the right to a fair work place with no harrassment whether sexual or mental or whatever.
In answer to that, what VT said.
Boss doesn’t like the ties you wear? You’re fired. You’re being sexually harrassed by another employee, but are afraid to do anything? A third worker files the complaint and YOU get fired. I saw it happen to someone I know.
Oh, and JR?
I notice the cons here like to piss on your leg when you speak about working for a big company.
AND they like to piss on your leg when you talk about being self employed.
Mostly? I think they just like to piss on your leg.
And Pre, even the DOJ wont hire folks for civil service positions ON THE RUMOR that they might be a lesbian. Monica Goodling anyone?
Some protection those federal laws. They dont even protect people from/at the DOJ!
Farmie the ease with which you just dismissed thousands of workers while eliminating the lowest food prices in town show the disdain the left routinely shows for the poorest among us.
The saviors of the world led by the new messiah will make life even harder for those with the greatest need. Libs refuse to do anything to reduce fuel prices and now would just do away with their lowest price food source. Amazing.
“but he shouldn’t put down others because they don’t agree with him.”
Whew. Thank goodness grmie never does that…
ksfarmgrrl
Posted August 4, 2008 at 2:49 pm | Permalink
—-
Nice diversion. You didn’t want to answer the question or you just don’t want to use your brain?
Yeah I know kfg.
It’s the world we’ve made.
I guess they’ll have to forgive me for willing something other than a real life version of “Survivor”.
Farmie you posted three posts before inserting the lesbian factor. I am proud of you.
As for BJ he disses everyone on here about what they do. Why should he be exempt from the same treatment?
“disdain the left routinely shows for the poorest among us.”
WTF? Excuse me?
I’m just being a good conservative, free market capitalist. The free market isnt there for sympathy or to be a nanny. Nope. The free market reward profitability at ALL costs.
Without regulations, that is.
Surely you are not advocating for a nanny state economy that does not let the invisible hand of the free market work it’s magic?
I’m shocked. SHOCKED, I say.
Businesses are in business to make a profit, not powder the butts of employees. If Walmart gets forced into union and cant compete because of it, the free market will fill that empty niche.
Econ 101, remember?
Oh, and for the satire impaired, that’s it.
Heh. And we ALL know it’s republicans who are the champions of the poor, and who want to tie the hands of corporations to coddle the working class. Just like paulie says the republicans are the party of racial equality and the KKK was an advocate for women’s rights.
Only in con world, up is down and black is white.
sarcasm off
The Republican way is to lie. If that doesn’t work, lie again. If that doesn’t work, start a rumor and than deny where it came from.
Nice diversion. You didn’t want to answer the question or you just don’t want to use your brain?
Oh, please answer with out some gay reference or the word Cynthia, if you are able.
Thank You,
ANTI
Your husband may have been in union or not grm.
But he was never a steward. You don’t get to where you have got from there.
And you really don’t understand the labor movement at all.
Those guys on strike? They are not just out for themselves.
They are out for those yet to come and those like me who have gone before. Their victory is mine to.
“okobserver” fantasizes –
“…man to man discussions between the employee and the employer…”
Yeah, right.
The Wal-Mart associate who’s screwed over by the company should just go to Bentonville, Arkansas and chat about it with Lee Scott. His “door is always open,” and all that crap.
Give me a break.
You can’t possibly believe that.
Ah, but you write it.
No lie is too outrageous if it promotes your agenda.
I will repost it, because you are trying to bury it to give it less meaning.
Libs, if unions come into walmart and walmart is forced to raise the prices of their products considerably, what do you think will be the effect on the poor who rely on walmart’s low prices for goods?
Combine the rise in cost of walmart products with the high fuel and energy costs that the Dems are promoting. This will create more poor people and further the gap between well off and poor. Will it not?
And anti, not only did I answer the question, but it is the correct answer. Sorry you dont like it. Sucks to be you. If you arent prepared for the answer, dont ask the question.
I swear to the FSN, you cons have NEVER passed a goddam economics OR government class.
BJ the example you gave would imply that I could go to my employer and tell him/her that I am going back to school to get a MBA and I want a raise. Doesn’t work that way in the real world. You acquire more skills, complete the necessary training and then set down man to man and talk about a raise.
You brought something to the table besides your whining.
“I will repost it, because you are trying to bury it to give it less meaning.”
Uh, no, I answered the question just as it was asked. It was a dumbassed question when you posted it. Why are you surprised that the correct answer is as dumbassed as the question?
The agenda is clear- Democrats, promoting poverty and government reliance since….way to long.
What’s wrong Grm, you’re so ashamed of being a grandma that you hate it when we call you gram, but does it make you feel all icky inside when KFG posts about being gay?
You’re never give me crap about being a mom…or being political, and I don’t see anyone giving you crap about being from Oklahoma..but she can’t be proud to be gay?
I want to know why you get so offended of her gayness…what does it do to you?
Too.
“As for BJ he disses everyone on here about what they do”
Nope, only bash on people for who they are, what they believe, etc.
“BJ the example you gave would imply that I could go to my employer and tell him/her that I am going back to school to get a MBA and I want a raise. Doesn’t work that way in the real world.”
Uh, no grmie. THAT response is ONLY correct if your union contract calls for you to have a pay upgrade if you get an MBA. Does it? Then if you get an MBA, you get the pay upgrade. If it doesnt, then your statement is true. Otherwise? Your post is apples to oranges. But nice try at confusion and conflation.
I see that LOGIC was also among the classes that were not passed.
…not to mention Rhetoric 101…
KFG, do you not think walmart will raise it’s prices due to unions, therefore affecting the nations poor who rely on cheap goods?
Hee hee hee Pmom. She’s clearly secretly hot for me.
To which I can only reply…
EWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!
Observer:
1. The lowest food in town is not Wal-Mart. Aldi beats them hands down. Aldi is not a union operation. They are a low overhead operation. I shop there. Put $.25 up for a shopping cart. Bring my own bags and bag my own groceries. And I make almost $50,000 a year. But I digress.
2. Aldi is based out of Illinios. If that is a conservative state, I am the pope.
3. The “little red hen” approach from the right is losing it’s traction. Nobody believes that we should protect business. Problems like Ken Ley, Westar, etc. Are making people wonder what happens if you give business a break.
PRE:
absolutely correct, nobody should have to work in that type of environment.
No, just being a good worker does NOT get you ahead, sometimes it can do just the opposite. If you do good work, they want you on that production instead they move the kiss ass do nothings up just to get them off the line.
The ones who hire them are too afraid of the smarter better workers taking over their jobs.
And sometimes, they just like their ego stroked knowing they have that much power. I’ve seen it lately and its getting so much worse, the people who are being advanced are not the ones who deserve it.
And sometimes people are hit by lightning, but not commonly.
“BJ the example you gave would imply that I could go to my employer and tell him/her that I am going back to school to get a MBA and I want a raise.”
Nope. Your version is your choice.
Telling someone to master a skill that others are paid more for is entirely different.
“KFG, do you not think walmart will raise it’s prices due to unions”
Beginning macro economics would show that raising wages wouldnt matter if productivity kept pace. Look it up, if you can.
And if productivity doesnt keep pace? Layoffs, not higher prices, are the answer.
And… for the record, I worked for AT&T, CWA, and IBEW during the BIGGEST telecommunications layoffs in history, following Judge Green’s order in 1986.
Just having a union does not guarantee there will be layoffs. And the days of getting x number of jobs in X job titles are over.
Either that, or the company that does it is out of business.
I love how the free market capitalists love the free market.
Except when they dont…
“do you not think walmart will raise it’s prices due to unions, therefore affecting the nations poor who rely on cheap goods?”
So.. you dont believe that if there is a gap in the market, some business wont move in to fill it?
WTF? HOW do you think wallyworld was created in the first place? There was a need in the market and they filled it.
Jesus WEPT!
When it comes to economics, government and logic, some of you need to get a ticket for posting while stupid…
Do you really think walmart union employees will be vastly more productive to compensate for keeping the prices low?
Why are airplanes so damn expensive? Should someone be paid $45,000 to push a broom?
Instead of asking the workers to take the cut, why not ask the shareholders and the rich owners to take one for the team instead then?
Oh no, we can’t do that.
Surely you are not advocating for a nanny state economy that does not let the invisible hand of the free market work it’s magic?
Of course not! How could a good free-market conservative possibly favor interfering with private contracts? Hell, next thing you know, they’ll be getting government to enact “right-to-work” laws to crush unions, or “drug testing” statutes that give legal immunity to employers or. . . .
Hmmm. Oh well.
Never mind!
kfg’s answer to your question is correct “ANTI”
And if I can get by without Wal mart? Anybody else could.
And if productivity doesnt keep pace? Layoffs, not higher prices, are the answer.
—-
So, more poor.
That, ANTI, is the way the free market works.
So in this case, you libs are for “free market” economics????
Interesting!
Someone needs to give Anti her ticket. And Rage, thanks for getting it!
If the walmart employees’ productivity does not keep pace with their wages, they should be laid off. Or the company will go out of business.
Which is EXACTLY what has happened in the aviation business. And when it hasnt happened, it’s because that goddam nanny state government stepped in with corporate welfare and givaways to the companies that couldnt cut it in the world of the free market.
here’s your sign…
avtolle
Posted August 4, 2008 at 3:19 pm | Permalink
That, ANTI, is the way the free market works.
—–
I know, but it is odd how selective the Libs are to the free market isn’t it.
And if walmart DOES raise it’s prices and “poor people” cant afford their foreign made shitty products?
Some OTHER company will fill the market niche for foreign made shitty products. At lower prices.
That’s how the free market works.
When did you become a fan of NON free markets?
The invisible hand is gonna reach out and SPANK your dumb ass…
Ok! we are in agreement, let start drillin’ that oil now!!! And while we are at it, lets cut the 40%+ taxes on business so that they can pay their employees more!
“So in this case, you libs are for “free market” economics????”
Uh, in fact, yes. I am ALWAYS an advocate of free markets.
In my entire history of posting here, find ONE post where I wasnt.
The invisible hand is gonna reach out and SPANK your dumb ass…
KFG, I can see the invisible hand, but I’d rather not watch what’s it’s doing. Ewwwww!
Spot on KSFG. The GOP acting just like the “liberals” that they dislike. And they expect us to think that they are also conservative.
Oh but this is different. They are god fearing aircraft workers.
When did you become a fan of NON free markets?
—–
I am a fan of free market, I was just using the emotional “poor” argument the libs use all the time to get your response. The response was a conservative one relating to free market! That is rich!!
ha ha!!!!! :D
“Why are airplanes so damn expensive?
Would you care to fly in a cheap one?
Interesting: because liberals tend to favor things like, ya know, environment standards, health-and-safety regulations (none of which is directly related to market forces), they are labeled as anti-free-market.
When conservatives repeatedly use the government (via tax policy, skewed laws, bailouts and the like), well, that’s just good policy!
http://action.credomobile.com/comics/2008/07/sparky_t_penguin_private_eye.html
You need to observe the first rule of holes, anti.
Ok! we are in agreement, let start drillin’ that oil now!!!
Drilling now, in the world of free markets, is what makes more drilling NOT work to lower prices to consumers. Increased supply only results in lower prices when demand remains the same or declines. In the case of oil, demand is increasing, and so the supply/demand curve is useless without factoring in the elasticity of demand.
The current high cost of energy is NOT a function of pure supply and demand. We’d be seeing shortages if it were. It’s a case of quasi-public utility monopolies exploiting inelastic demand for necessities. The more inelastic the demand, the less the supply/demand curve applies.
And.. that’s why some of us are looking at conservation, or the DEMAND side of the graph, not JUST the supply side. Supply side only blinders gets us what we got.
You need to google Arthur Laffer. The Laffer Curve has been discredited many times.
And to use your own twisted “logic”, (and I use that term loosely)…
So NOW YOU are in favor of nanny state economics?
Like I said, only in con world, where up is down and black is white.
Rage, it’s too late! Ha HA HA!!! :D, that invisible hand hurts, doesn’t it!
Would you care to fly in a cheap one?
“My entire family died in the crash, but look at the money I saved!”
“And while we are at it, lets cut the 40%+ taxes on business so that they can pay their employees more!”
Heheheheh. And anti reveals the only TRUE agenda of the cons.
I read on another blog today that this refusal of the rich to be “burdened” with taxes happened before in history.
It resulted in the French Revolution.
You missed the point there KFG. Trim up your mullet, your brain is overheating!
I just LOVE it when anti gets her dumb ass handed to her that she falls back on the “I was only pretending to believe what you believe” argument.
Lame. Really lame.
Still waiting for someone to repost something I said that was NOT in favor of the free market.
ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choices…
A short answer from someone who knows…
A LOT of the cost in aircraft has very little to do with the labor building it. Not direct labor anyway.
Been there, done that too.
Not to mention, of course, the need for equal access to all information affecting the market, both buyer and seller have all the information necessary to make an informed decision, etc. And, kfg, as you rightly assert, when there is inelasticity of demand, the “normal” rules of supply and demand don’t work; not to mention the additional point made that increased supply does not work to lower prices when demand increases greater than the supply.
It was true KFG, and your stupid ass along with your buddies fell for it! Typical sheep in a row walking down a path.
Oh no anti, I very much got the point. And handed your ass to you on it.
Tippy, yer pathetic. Next you’ll accuse me of setting my mustache on fire….
Here’s your sign. Want a little salve for that red ass?
“And, kfg, as you rightly assert, when there is inelasticity of demand, the “normal” rules of supply and demand don’t work; not to mention the additional point made that increased supply does not work to lower prices when demand increases greater than the supply.”
Thanks VT. Anyone who PASSED Econ 101 would know that, unless they were being deliberately obtuse.
And now the “dance puppet dance” defense?
heheheh
Poodle Dancing at the Blue Iguana.
No, you didn’t KFG. Now go shear that mullet. You took the bait and now are just angry that I set the hook!
Tippy? is that your pet name?
Well, I am off to the lake to cool off. See ya suckas!
Like Tracy used to say…
Pitiful. Just pitiful.
I’m going to eat some fresh peaches and blow up yer tv.
More opinions here than at a half-price sale at a shoe store.
Also, that lingering foot smell going on as well…
(waits for it..knows it will happen…)
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Improper as it is.
I’ll venture that your average Wal mart employee or even mid manager is not likely very politically inclined or informed. Otherwise they wouldn’t be working there in the first place.
And even in a place like Wal mart? American nature is to rebel against the boss.
This COULD be a real bite in the butt for their intentions.
10 or 12 years ago President Clinton used a lot of his political clout to increase the minimum wage.
The CONs got up on their hind legs and brayed that it would ruin the economy.
Funny thing, though.
In the real world, it did no such thing.
Fast-food workers at minimum wage all of a sudden got $40 a week more income enabling them to afford maybe a couple more vists to fast-food places. And the economy flourished.
And guess what?
A McChicken sandwich or a Double-Cheeseburger has remained on McDonald’s DOLLAR Menu ever since.
Guess it was over-priced in 1995, or they were making more money at the old wage scale and still think it’s to their advantage to sell more McChickens with a lower profit mark-up because more people can afford ‘em.
Wal-Mart thinks paying their employees a living wage will ruin them. But here in the real world it turns out those employees would be able to afford to buy more stuff.
Wal-Mart, under Sam Walton, was committed to made-in-America products. Since he died, his heirs have shifted the company toward relying on slave labor in China. And, if they had their way, they’d do it with slave wages in America.
Pmom I don’t mind frmgrl bringing her gayness into any conversation which is about that subject. But she interjects it into every subject. Not sure why. Where exactly did it fit into walmart or unions?
BJ sorry I had to leave for a while but you who says you never lie. Well yes my husband was a shop stewart. Why would you lie about something you know nothing about.
Not all people think unions are the answer. Certainly my husband changed his mind. And from the numbers so have a lot of other people.
farmgirl
You are absolutely wrong.
More supply will keep prices from going as high as they would go, without more supply.
You are tossing out buzz words but you are not making any sense at all.
VT
Increased supply will keep the prices from going as high as they would have gone, without the increased supply.
Farmgirl
The poor dont pay much of anything, in the way of income taxes.
The poor get an “earned income credit” that, pretty much, means that their social security or FICA tax is rebated.
The recent “stimulus” rebate pretty much eliminated the bottom, 10% bracked for many taxpayers.
Where do you get off saying that we are nearing “French Revolution” levels?
The “rich” pay almost all of our taxes!
okobserver: The natural upward pressure on wages comes from the shareholders who demands an improvements on their ROI and raises the price of their goods. If this happens enough then the worker will need a raise to offset the increases in price. Perhaps the biggest culprit is the banking system that will raise their terms for exactly the same reason but hyper financial costs are never included in the cost of goods by the public for some reason, just the wage earner. Ususally the cost of living, or the price of things, is dictated by the share value or the bottom line improvements demanded. As to senority, the workers should make the same amount for doing the same job but what we forget is that the senior worker hidden benefits, an inventory of monies built up in his pension accruded over the years from contributions by the employer and less likely to be laid off in downturuns hence they are not equal in their situations at all. I want you, and you alone to sit down with management team of Walmart and tell them you need a raise or you, and of course you and you alone, will strike, picket, the then see what happens. See if the cops will let you picket….not bloody likey. There is strength and protection in numbers be it in union membership or a helluva bankroll. I have negotiated with shop stewards and union reps. over many years finding them neither stupid nor greedy, nor generally is the Union Movement. Bean counters are more inclined that way. Having said that there are swine in every field of endeavour no matter the procalimed aims and objects.
And you, paulie, are completely full of shit.
I just handed you your ass on the other thread where this is being discussed.
Please document how increasing supply will make prices go “not as high as they would”. WTF? Define as high as they would WHAT?
If demand increases faster than supply, no matter HOW FREAKIN’ MUCH you increase supply, prices will go up.
Jesus WEPT paulie. I doubt YOU passed econ 101.
If supplies DECREASED but demand declined faster and farther, prices would also go down.
You supply siders. Yer just a laff a minute!
And note, the TRUE agenda is ALWAYS lowering taxes for the rich. Thanks for proving my point paulie. Some days I think I should send you a check for making me look so good. But then…
You’d have to pay taxes on that check, and I wouldnt want to upset you with that.
Looking at the supply side without considering demand side or elasticity issues is like, well, soup without sandwich, peanut butter without jelly, and…
republicans without oil lobby money. Republicans without sex scandals. And bon bon without raj.
Senior workers? Seniority? Without a union?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
”
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August 3, 2008
I suggested a topic on retirees and the housing bubble, with this article. “These are tough economic times for people of all ages, but few are affected more than senior citizens living on pensions and Social Security. ‘Americans age 55 or older experienced the sharpest rise in bankruptcy filings during the 16-year period between 1991 and 2007, according to a report released by AARP, ‘Generations of Struggle.’ The rate of personal bankruptcy filings among those ages 65 or older grew by 125 percent, while the bankruptcy rate of seniors ages 75 to 84 jumped a stunning 433.3 percent.’”
“‘It’s frightening. It’s a horror story in the making. It will not get better. It will continue to get worse,’ said Thomas Mackell., chairman of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond and author of ‘When the Good Pensions Go Away.’ ‘We are facing a generation of boomers where 55 percent of them are ill-prepared economically to retire.’”
A reply, “What’s the average 401K balance, like 60 grand? That’ll last a year or two at best. I have a bad feeling there are a lot of boomers out there that will be hurting. A lot of people say that it just means people will keep working, but where? And no, it will not be their houses that save them.”
http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/?p=4817
Paulie’s views on economics are about as laffable as him saying republicans are the party of racial equality and the KKK advocates for women’s rights.
If you dont know anything about economics, you can judge paulie’s track record of knowing his stuff by THOSE assertions.
#
ANTI
Posted August 4, 2008 at 3:22 pm | Permalink
Ok! we are in agreement, let start drillin’ that oil now!!! And while we are at it, lets cut the 40%+ taxes on business so that they can pay their employees more!
=======================================================
#
ANTI
Posted August 4, 2008 at 3:26 pm | Permalink
ha ha!!!!! :D
=====================================================
Please send me some of that shit you’re smokin’
okobserver: Gonna take this one more step. You selling an item for a buck, the material content is 33 cents and the labour content in 33 cents, leaving you a markup of 50% or netting out to say about 15% before taxes. Now the Wall street boys/Pension Fund Managers/Mutual Funds want an increase of 20% on their ROI. Lets see, can we get the long time, dependable supplier to slash his prices or the worker to take a drop in wages to achieve the 20%…no? Well, raise the price enough so when you wash the rest of the numbers through, you’ll achieve the increase in the ROI. You can only do this so often though, then you have to do something different and drastic about reducing labor and material costs to continue a better and better ROI….China, here we come! They call that practice a “Bull Market”.
sursum
Posted August 4, 2008 at 6:01 pm | Permalink
okobserver: The natural upward pressure on wages comes from the shareholders who demands an improvements on their ROI and raises the price of their goods.
—————————–
Sursum your distaste for shareholders expection ROI is typical of union men. The risk taken by investors is rewarded hopefully by a return on those investments. Corporations bad, unions good. Just keep up that mantra. Maybe someone will fall for it.
“If demand increases faster than supply, no matter HOW FREAKIN’ MUCH you increase supply, prices will go up.”
—————————-
Farmgrl How does the above statement disprove supply and demand or supply side economic. You make so sense. The lack of supply will raise prices for a while but as soon as the supply is brought up prices come down. What is wrong with your logic today.
BTW I have heard you reference the Laffer curve twice today and it is so far from what it really is you are laughable. Go back and study it and then come back and post some logic.
————————
Well Sursum lets take that $1 item and apply real numbers. Material cost .33 labor cost .33. Thats leaves you .34 cents not sure where you got the 50% markup. Must be union math. You now have to furnish a building to build the product and pay utilities plus office staff, plus sales sales people to market your product. Add to that the 40% tax that the government wants and you start finding yourself in a hole. Well here comes the union telling you you had a 50% markup and they want a share of that. Give everyone a 10% raise making the labor cost .37. Is it any wonder that I am going to get my product ready made from China. It is the only way I can stay in business.
Thanks for your help with this little exercise.
And Sursum I didn’t even mention the poor investor who gets absolutely nothing for his investment.
Those guys on strike? They are not just out for themselves.
They are out for those yet to come and those like me who have gone before. Their victory is mine to.
–
Bullsh**. They are there because they believe they can force wage/benefit/conditions concessions that will benefit THEM. Period.
If they are there for any other reason, or if you think they give a rat’s ass about you, JR, they (and you) are a fool.
Off topic: Thomas Frank has a new book out that skewers Republicans so thoroughly. Remember them, the people who said government doesn’t work, except when it is supposed to circumvent free market competition for them; and create “entrepreneurial” profits for others (think Jack Abramoff):
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93253890
As usual, the man is on target.
Grmie, you are the one who is clueless about Laffer, his supply side economics history, AND the Laffer Curve. Here’s a little help. I know you must be too slow to use The Google.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
Now, real slow for you and paulie.
You can not consider supply without also considering demand.
you can decrease supply, and if demand declines faster or farther, prices will decline.
You can increase supply, but if demand increases faster or farther, it will NOT bring down prices.
For someone who is supposed to have a college education and years of business, I’m having a hard time understanding what you dont understand about that.
Please post where ANYTHING I said today about economics is NOT true.
And google “demand + elasticity” and SEE if you can understand the SCIENCE of economics. Or do you just let ideology trump fact?
I’m betting the latter.
To increase profits, Protocol dictates that you cut the number of workers across the board, make the remainder work longer harder hours. Everyone’s happy, except the worker.
Farmie Laffers curve spoke to overtaxation of the working class. It goes back to my ‘worker bee’ comment that BJ took so personally. When the rise of taxes goes up faster than the ability of workers to make money and the greater share of their income begins to go to taxes there will start to be those working people who will leave the work force and join the slackers on the sideline with government furnishing their daily needs.
Now the question would be how long will this type of taxation survive. No longer than the work force will put up with it.
When the worker bees sit on the sidelines with the slackards then the taxation rate is no longer important. Because the government is dead in the water.
As for supply and demand. What you are trying to force us to believe can’t be true. If the market is glutted with widgets then widgets will become cheaper eventually. If even the rumor of cheaper widgets hits the market then some will stop buying and wait for the glut and cheaper prices.
Supply and demand works every time no matter how much noise you make.
The audacity of Walmart! How dare the senior management of a major corporation provide their employees knowledge – on the possible impact on the company of the politic’s and policies of the candidates. How CAN they do this horrible thing?
Now it is perfectly legitimate for the unions to tell the workers how to vote – but gawd forbid the company tell employees how to vote.
We can’t have that in socialist America! There must be some law the democrats can come up with to stop the dastardly corporations from this!
How awful! Companies trying to maintain the going concern, which is contrary to the liberals future for America.
At least I had sprayed prices on it this time. Their pants are uniquely Spanish. We also went down to demand when they were on in their pants.
We looked at prices and purcahsed demand. Prices remember to put it in their pants before I leave here. Freezing prices.
Don’t talk about the Prices like that! There I took up for you guys.
I wouldn’t be surprised if more businesses and wealthy Americans start taking sides.
Afterall, a far, far left liberal democrat with radically social ideas has promised to hurt their pocket books.
Mandatory healthcare insurance to be partically funded by employers at a cost of billions.
Extreme expectation that Obama will force labor unions on the 285 million Americans who are not members (have to augment that 15), at a cost of billions in labor contracts.
A plan Obama proudly proclaims that he is “Coming after” those making more than 250K (reality will be much lower).
Promises for new and expensive entitlement programs which SOMEone will have fund.
Hell libs, if the shoe was on the other foot – would you take it laying down?
“join the slackers on the sideline with government furnishing their daily needs.”
There are no such people. Nor are there any such programs.
And I notice that “worker bee” you sure has an awfully lot of free time.
I couldn’t have other people make money for me while I blog. I respect labor more than that.
Wal mart is one of the largest employers in this country.
Thing is? They may ultimately be a victim of their own pursuit to dominate all retail.
All it will take is for one person in the right place at a time coming soon. Wal mart will have it’s “Norma Rae” moment.
They’ll address it at first by closing the offending stores as they have elsewhere.
That will work, for awhile.
But eventually, Wal mart will have to allow unions or they will have to resign themselves to not having stores in some states.
BlueJay
Posted August 4, 2008 at 3:49 pm | Permalink
“Improper as it is.”
What is improper about it?
“Wal mart will have to allow unions or they will have to resign themselves to not having stores in
some states.”
And consumers will have to resign themselves to higher prices if Walmart is unionized.
But like gas, libs will whine and cry about that.
“Bullsh**. They are there because they believe they can force wage/benefit/conditions concessions that will benefit THEM. Period.
If they are there for any other reason, or if you think they give a rat’s ass about you, JR, they (and you) are a fool.”
There are people who are as you describe GMC.
There’s too many of them really. But you obviously know nothing of a good strong union member. Nor would you be very good for a union.
I didn’t sit up half the night so many nights writing grievances for me. Yeah I got a bang outta the fight and being a thorn in the side of management.
The ulcers and lost battles? Not so much fun.
I enjoyed pay, benefits, and conditions won by others before me. Things that I did remain for those working now.
Not everybody is like you cons GMC. Some of us are just about a little bit more than themselves.
“than themselves.”
Try “ourselves”.
An emphasized form of the pronoun of the first person plural; — used as a subject, usually with we; also, alone in the predicate, in the nominative or the objective case. “We ourselves might distinctly number in words a great deal further then we usually do.” Locke. “Safe in ourselves, while on
Or maybe you DID mean THEMselves. Maybe you were referring back to the CON’s?
Bj you just keep on preaching that sermon and someday you might convince someone besides yourself that you are right. Of course you always have the very gullible libs. But that is preaching to the choir.
BJ i have earned the right to blog. I wll put my hours worked up against your hours worked any day of the week. You will lose big time.
The only thing you respect is yourself and your union label.
Well I’m about as low income as anybody I know.
I survive WITHOUT Wal mart well enough.
Those who would have a problem? They are lampooned well enough in the jibjab video “Big Box Mart”.
Me I can get by without a house full of Chinese made crap.
Jr why don’t you tell us about anything you did that still remains for the union worker at Hawker today. Full of yourself tonight aren’t you.
“Me I can get by without a house full of Chinese made crap.”
You are just an exceptional person JR. I seem to remember that you are the person who goes into a non-smoking restaurant and orders a big meal and just as your hard working wait person brings it you lite up and they ask you to put it out. You then leave without paying for the food or leaving a tip.
A real winner you are jr.
“I survive WITHOUT Wal mart well enough.”
So did you find somewhere more expensive to buy your goods? Does that allow you to save enough to fund healthcare for you and your family?
With a low income, is that healthy?
You know Walmarts theme?
Save Money. Live better.
“I wll put my hours worked up against your hours worked any day of the week. You will lose big time.”
There might be some discrepancy between what we would agree on as “work”.
I never considered telling other people what to do work. And I was in the position of doing so on several occasions.
I liked the steward thing a lot more than the crew chief gig.
Oh and I don’t post to win over such as you grmie. You are the sort I want to fight not switch.
“So did you find somewhere more expensive to buy your goods? Does that allow you to save enough to fund healthcare for you and your family?”
I buy American made clothing for the same price or less than foreign made clothing. Wal-mart gets the cheap goods from China and marks up the price to match the price of American made products. Since there is a higher profit margin for Wal-mart with foreign made crap they refuse to carry American made products.
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/
okobserver: .33+.33=.66 of which 50% is .33, or a 50% mark up on costs or 33% on selling. I didn’t sweat too many entries after the decimal point to round out to the $1. Note the % I list before taxes taking into consideration indirect costs not otherwise attritubed, ie direct material and direct labor. The equation is not academic but something folks running a business live with. I’ll stick with my point on hyper ROI demands contributing to increases. Pull apart a P&L when you want to see what is going on, not the balance sheet. That 40% Taxation is something I never saw in my life. Bear this in mind. Two pillars of econimics are that you never withhold from the market, economies of scale you attain or you will not be competitive and never pass on economies you do not attain or you will go broke. The hyper capitalists have stopped doing this, especially the former, thus neutering American labor, the most productive, creative worker in history.
” to match the price of American made products”
So why are American made products more expensive?
Maggot which brand of clothing wouldthat be and where do you find it?
BJ you have your own version of truth. It will never match anyone elses.
“the most productive, creative worker in history.”
No brag, just fact. ;-)
Honda, where quality is job one.
I usually go to American Apparel for new clothes although I haven’t bought any in awhile. I did order new shoes from a small family owned shop in Washington that makes shoes out of sheepskin. Many outfitters can be found from the link I provided.
“Full of yourself tonight aren’t you.”
Only a little.
I’m never happier than when I am taking it to the enemy AND getting at them.
Sometimes the Tractor Supply Co store has lower prices on clothing. Bibbs and some durable work shirts. But I suppose you could wear them even if you don’t actually work.
To thine ownself be true.
Works for me there germie.
Bj you are as ever pathetic and think somehow you have made a difference. Deluded following the union line. Where did that get you? Huh? I know where it got us. Best thing that ever happened was the day my husband went non-union.
Sursum I can tell from your logic you are a union man. Don’t know much about running a business thats for sure.
germie……………..get OVER yourself!
Unions are what have made the American middle class!
Try as you want, UNIONS are NOT going away!
An old lady who uses other people to make her money while she blogs called me pathetic.
Yeah, I can live with that.
Oh and forgive me if I doubt that your husband was EVER union let alone a steward. I know what it is to be a steward. My father was one before me.
I am comfortable in my own skin and satisfied I did what I could.
YOUR need germie, to try and diminish that comes from?
Popoff did you get an invitation? BJ and I were have a discussion. But feel free to come in. Unions without demo help are becoming extinct. That is what this thread is all about. Look at their numbers. They speak for themselves.
You know it is good to follow in your fathers footsteps. Remember that as you are raising your son. This hate you are teaching him isn’t healthy.
As for what I am or am not and what my husband is or isn’t well BJ you are just blowing hot air as usual and I have let you waste to much of my time today.
………well, germie…………the two unions I represent are actually GROWING!
The AFT is 1.5 MILLION strong and growing!
The NEA is 3.2 MILLION strong and growing!
…………..you were saying exactly WHAT germie?
Then why is Wal mart afraid germie?
Oh and Apophis has just as much right to post here as you do.
Tick, tick, tick, germie.
You’re old. And while I generally respect my elders?
You don’t qualify.
Time will take you and I will still be here.
“This hate you are teaching him isn’t healthy.”
I don’t teach hate. I teach self defense and consideration of others.
WalMart is afraid because the tide is turning……………………..
Indeed Apophis.
24 years without a strike where I used to work.
Now? 90% vote to strike!
Or rather, to strike BACK.
It’s a resource these poor souls forced to sing a loyalty song to an evil company like Wal mart.
One of the interesting things on this subject is the public vote aspect. It is very interesting that those who favor a public vote choose here to hide their identity. Which is very wise.
Also do not forget your history. One upon a time in the United States there was no secret ballot in elections. Then employers and other groups had observers at the elections. They recorded how people voted. Vote the wrong way and face the consequences. The same is easily true today.
What is really going on here is politics. Some activists cannot win using the fair rules of today. So they seek to change the rules to give themselves the advantage. If only they could make a persuasive argument for a pro-union position they would not have to resort in changing the rules.
You know its pretty easy. The freedom to vote to unionize if they want to shouldn’t be interfered with. The company if it isn’t in the worker’s best interests have the right to put out the information. But to outright be so deceitful and strongarming makes me think this IS good for the workers and that is why the company doesn’t want it.
Smart business owners and leaders know that the success of the firm relies on a partnership between management and employees. The business would fail without both parties adding value. Any employee must be compensated at market value or above to make this partnership work. Workers that feel that their value is not duly compensated generally have two choices: go elsewhere or try to force management (via a union or individual negotiation) to raise the offer.
The most common problem: workers tend to believe they are worth greater than market value.
Labor unions regularly negotiate hourly wages greater than market value. Anyone with any education in economics knows that this results in increased unemployment. An increase in the minimum wage typically does the same.
I’ve never worked for Walmart, but their employees seem satisfied. I doubt the workers will be unionizing any time soon. Nor should they.
“Labor unions regularly negotiate hourly wages greater than market value. Anyone with any education in economics knows that this results in increased unemployment. An increase in the minimum wage typically does the same.”
Sigh.
For the one hundreth time…
No that is not true, if productivity keeps pace with or outpaces the rise in wages.
And ya know, REAL economists believe anything can be quantified and measured.
So prove that “labor unions regularly negotiate hourly wages greater than market value”
Then prove that productivity does not generally keep pace with the rise in wages.
As Muldar and Scully used to say, the truth is out there. No need to take SWAGs.
Obama Fantasy Speech #3: The Barons of Wal-Mart
by Mark Kleiman
The bosses at Wal-Mart are afraid that if I’m elected Wal-Mart employees are going to have a real chance to organize, without fear of the illegal intimidation tactics Wal-Mart has used to keep unions out.
And they’re right.
And they’re afraid that Wal-Mart won’t be able to continue to dump its costs on the rest of us by leaving its employees with little or no health coverage.
And they’re right.
And they’re afraid that they, personally, are going to have to start paying their fair share of the costs of defending and governing this country, rather than having their taxes keep going down while their underpaid employees’ taxes keep going up.
And they’re right.
But what the Wal-Mart bosses don’t understand is that we are one nation, and that what’s good for the many is also good for the few.
During the 1930s the industrial barons thought that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was their greatest enemy. They thought that Social Security and the Wagner Labor Act were going to lead the country down the road to socialism. They spread every nasty rumor they could about FDR; they even said he was really Jewish — “Franlin Delano Rosenfeld” — instead of Dutch. (I guess it didn’t occur to them to claim he was a Muslim.)
But at the end of the day, those rich men found themselves richer than ever in a country more powerful and united than ever. They weren’t able to grab such a huge piece of the pie for themselves, but the pie was so much larger that their smaller piece of it was still more than they’d ever had before, under Presidents like Calvin Coolidge and Herbert Hoover, who remained beloved by the rich even as they wrecked the economy and led the country into the Depression.
So once again, I say to the Barons of Wal-Mart: be not afraid. The medicine of having to treat your employees decently may be bitter, but drink it down and your company will be healthier in the long run. My policies will benefit not just a part of the country, but the entire United States of America. Everyone. Even you.
“As Muldar and Scully used to say, the truth is out there. No need to take SWAGs.”
SWAGs = A) somewhat wise and generous suggestions
or B) scientific wild ass guesses
Vote now: ….
farmie: ceteris paribus assumption application #2.
Supply side economics doesn’t really apply to petroleum products, it’s price is controlled by speculators which then has a domino effect.
Price per barrel is often voted upon in Opec and Opec-allied meetings.
“Supply side economics doesn’t really apply to petroleum products”
Thank you reg.
It only applies when “all things are equal”. Which they never are in the real world.
“ceteris paribus assumption application #2.”
Funny, but that sounds weirdly like something Crusader X would have said…
non carus
Steven, it’s of course B.
And I give this round, soundly, to KFG. Supply-siders, you have been p0wned. And how!
I’m laffing at your curve. . .
okobserver: Of course I’m a union man, never belonged to one and often had to go the mat over contract disputes especially in contract renewals. Spent my career in management running a pretty proftable graphic arts business. Tell ya one thing we did that was never in any contract. If a child of any employee, union or not (we had a union shop but not administration) had the smarts and made the effort, we picked up his post high school education costs.That’s the kind of capitalsm that worked hand in glove within our economy. But that’s gone now I understand, under the new absentee owners.
Wow, thanks Rage. Coming from you, that means a lot.
“p0wned”
Bawhahaha
Another loonie