Thoughts and prayers go out to the loved ones and co-workers of Jeff Hart, the Hawker Beechcraft worker who was struck and killed Monday morning on the way to a strike rally. As a letter writer suggests in today’s Reader Views, the driver of the pickup involved in Hart’s death deserves the community’s support as well. The tragedy illuminates the stakes and risks for workers, whose health care benefits ran out Aug. 4. And it provides another reason to hope the parties get back to the table soon, so the Machinists can get back to work.
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164 Comments
I guess it took this tragedy to get the editors to note the efforts of these gallant workers?
They are out on the forefront of defending worker rights and compensation and it was not news for you editors until one of them was killed in a tragic accident.
Shame on you.
There has not been a labor stoppage at that plant in 24 years. Witness the results.
I lived it. I worked there through 14 of those years.
Job codes shot to pieces for efficiency. Quality sacrificed for quantity. They are the lowest paid and most poorly treated of this air capital’s aircraft workers.
I understand management has office people doing production jobs during the strike. As the company long ago stopped promoting from the floor, I wonder if we will not be hearing about another tragic accident soon when some office jockey or secretary is killed or badly hurt doing something they have no knowledge of.
Stand strong my union brothers. This fight was a long time coming. You fight it for those who went before and those yet to come. Hold your ground.
Let it be noted that the company reinstated Hart’s benefits for his family.
I was wondering if the company would reinstate Hart’s benefits. I am very glad they did.
I think this tragedy will give pause to the striking workers who have given up their healthcare (and other benefits) in hope of 1 or 2 % more pay.
Let it be noted that the two people involved in this tragic accident were both on their way to a massive, pre-dawn rally of solidarity.
Out of respect for Mr. Hart, the rally was postponed and those gathered conducted a vigil of solemn remembrance and mourning.
Of course, one of our resident loonies wrote on this topic, a few days ago, that Hart was murdered, and implied that the company &/or the union was responsible.
THIS is why one waits for FACTS.
Nitwit.
I wonder if the unioners still think their strike is worth it?
“THIS is why one waits for FACTS.”
Waiting for facts? That is crazy talk
brian please inform yourself better before you post.
They are not just striking for 1 o 2% more pay.
Health insurance is an issue. And long overdue is the address of the companies abuse and disregard of job codes and overtime rules.
“Waiting for facts? That is crazy talk”
Sadly, on this blog, that is one of the most true statements I have read….
Stand strong my union brothers. This fight was a long time coming. You fight it for those who went before and those yet to come.
. . . . he writes bravely, from the sidelines, as a non-participant.
(Minstrel singing) . . . “when danger raised it’s ugly head, Brave Sir Robin turned and fled, brave, brave, brave,brave Sir JR, er, Robin” . . .
“I wonder if the unioners still think their strike is worth it?”
A rather stupid question. The answer is self evident.
It’s been years since I worked with employee benefits so I have a question on COBRA coverage.
This federal law allows people separated from their employment 90 days to decide whether to enroll for COBRA coverage. IF on the 89th day an illness or accident necessitates expensive health care that person may go back to day one of employment separation and pay the three months premiums ensuring coverage goes forward with no lapse.
Question: Are striking employees considered to be separated from employment for this purpose? Or, are they still “employed?”
Healthcare plan costs from the contract that was rejected:
1/1/2008 – 12/31/2008:
Employee Only = $53.91 (+4.73 dental, +1.77 vision)
Employee+1 = $93.01 (+10.38 dental, +1.77 vision)
Employee and Dependents = $142.63 (+13.08 dental, +1.77 vision)
1/1/2009 – 12/31/2009:
Employee Only = $$56.81 (+5.27 dental, +1.91 vision)
Employee+1 = $97.77 (+11.55 dental, +1.91 vision)
Employee and Dependents = $151.51 (+14.55 dental, +1.91 vision)
.
Those costs seem quite good and not worth striking over.
The strikers can enroll for COBRA
GMC?
For every night you have stayed up late organizing your prosecution of another human being?
I bet I have put in at least one defending a worker against an abusive and arrogant management.
“the address of the companies abuse and disregard of job codes and overtime rules”
I tried to read about these on the beech strikers and IAM blogs, but did not find much. What things were happening regarding this?
Well thank you for that brian.
The health care premium has skyrocketed since I left. It WAS around $30.
You in management out there by any chance brian?
Nope, I do not work at HBC, nor am I in management. I am in accounting.
Have the notices and enrollment forms and instructions for COBRA coverage been mailed as required of the employer?
Healthcare costs have increased across the board for all companies. Other than salaries, that is one of the highest employment costs for companies.
Those increases are not just a HBC thing or a Wichita thing.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2008/08/15/92815.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/29/AR2008042900745.html
http://www.kansas.com/101/story/492289.html
“Monthly medical insurance premiums under COBRA cost $386.74 for single coverage; $665.58 for the employee and one other person and $1,031.44 for a family, according to information on the company’s Web site.”
Information posted on a website would not fulfill the responsibility to mail to each employee a notice of eligibility along with instructions and enrollment forms. I still wonder if there has been an employment separation for the purpose of COBRA benefits? They may still be “employed.”
Please note too — Hawker Beechcraft is self-insured, paying an insurance company to administer benefits and (I’m not sure about this next) perhaps insure above a certain threshold.
Well since the company’s website gave the Cobra rates and the striker’s blog gave info about Cobra, and HBC presumably pays good money to someone to administer their benefits, I would think they were aware of the requirements and mailed the appropriate info.
If not HBC should get a refund from their insurance administrator or find some new HR folks.
What was it PMOM said about this driver being non-union and killing this guy intentionally?
Harsh. Very harsh. Mean hateful Lib.
BlueJay
Posted August 20, 2008 at 9:00 am | Permalink
Well thank you for that brian.
The health care premium has skyrocketed since I left. It WAS around $30.
You in management out there by any chance brian?
———————————————————————–
$30 is too much for JR to pay for health insurance!
This is just one indicator to show you how totally out of touch from reality this guy is. The Libs won’t be happy until EVERYTHING they get is “FREE”!
Anyone have a clue as to the Full Cost of medical insurance for an adult?
It’s a helluvalot more then $30!
If you looked upthread you would find COBRA rates. The company is allowed to add a small administrative fee (up to 2%) to the cost to come up with the COBRA rate. So, pretty much the rate listed would be the FULL COST of this coverage.
I’m not sure this tragedy illuminates anything associated with the strike. After reading accounts in the newspaper and watching the news at 9pm I know little more about the strike now than I did before.
On another note, I hereby claim to be the resident BLOG expert on working conditions at HBC specifically and in Wichita area aircraft plants in general.
I realize that one of the resident BLOG rats seems to be somewhat knowledgeble but his qualifications fall short when compared to mine.
Therefore, if you have any questions about the current strike specifically or any general questions about woprking conditions in general at Wichita area aircraft plants, I’m your guy!
Hank
Having married to a United Rubber Worker for several years before BFGoodrich stopped making tires in the US and moved the plant to Mexico – The strike is never worth it. The thousands lost will never be recouped. The company has the right to expect workers to be working when on the clock. Maybe the job classifications need to be looked at again.
HLP
Posted August 20, 2008 at 12:35 pm | Permalink
On another note, I hereby claim to be the resident BLOG expert on working conditions at HBC specifically and in Wichita area aircraft plants in general.
*****
Just curious, what bestows this expertise?
Wish I could pay as little as they do for their health insurance…even the offered amount is far less than I pay for med insurance…
Hey Steven,
I’ve worked for Beech in the past. Here is a short list of my qualifications:
I’ve worked as a blue collar worker on the line in avionics.
I’ve worked as a non-exempt employee as a technical writer for their target missle program.
I’ve worked at the plant for Raytheon Service Company out of Andover, Mass as a contract laborer, a logisticts engineer working on the TTTS proposal.
I’ve worked for Learjet as a technical writer.
I’ve worked for Learjet as the customer laison concerning technical and repair manual requirements.
During this time I have also been a member of the Machinist’s Union.
I’ve worked as a freelance consultant to Cessna Management.
For the past 22 years in my capacity as office manager for my wife I’ve worked with union officials, HR offices and insurance company provider relations for all the aircraft companies concerning their health care programs.
My wife is the medical director for Health Care America, a nationwide PPO. I am a consultant for them. we have helped write benefit packages that were acceptable to both labor and management.
I am familiar with all the health care programs for all the aircraft companies, presently and for the past twenty years.
I am not a bitter, hateful unemployed former union hack, therefore I have the ability to approach these matters with an open mind.
Hank it sounds like you are indeed qualified for the position.
Thankyou Mam!
It is an awesome responsiblity but like all my other responsibilities, I accept it with humility and good grace.
They are pretty much like a casted system out there, if you’re non-exempt or exempt worker you get treated pretty well. If you’re merely a labor person, you get treated like dirt beneath the feet.
Whoa Phantom!
What are your qualifications?
I’ve been labor and I was treated very well!
Apparently you were ‘connected’ labor. That is one of the most nepotistic aircraft companies in wichita, and that’s saying alot!
Yea, right.
I checked my short list, Phantom. ‘Connected’ isn’t on it.
I have driven by Beech many times over the past couple of weeks.
Has anyone else noticed that there seems to be more Sheriff’s Deputies, Whichita Police Dept, and plant security than strikers?
I have driven by there at all times as well. Several different entrances.
Where is everyone at?
“Where is everyone at?”
Oprah’s on!
Office boy Hank?
How’s your recent experience?
It reads like you are more than 30 years removed.
I just quit the place not that long ago. My dad was a union steward there. My sister still works there. My mom was in a non union job there and lived what that was like.
Oh and Nathan is lying. There are plenty of people picketing.
They are having to strike because they didn’t for 24 years. When that happens in a union shop, the company gets real froggy.
There should have been a strike in 97 but the company had a mole in the union leadership. They snookered a 5 year contract in and proceeded to wreck the place.
Job codes all shot to hell. Overtime regulations abused and neglected. People getting hurt because they were put in jobs they were not trained to do. The friends I worked with who are still there are getting old in front of me.
When I hired in, the premium on health insurance was $7 now they want to make it $90?
Tell the damned shareholders to take a hit for a change. They also want to tinker more with the overtime rules and blur up the job codes.
By a vote of 90% the union has finally said enough is enough. And they will win.
“They are pretty much like a casted system out there, if you’re non-exempt or exempt worker you get treated pretty well. If you’re merely a labor person, you get treated like dirt beneath the feet.”
Ya got that right phantom.
But I’ll tell you this. I did Employee club rep duty for awhile. Somebody’s kid is sick or there is a tragedy like this accident? The shop folk dig deep and give generously.
I carried a coffee can into the office areas because they never seemed to give more than change.
BlueJay,
LOL, I am lying? Have you driven by Beech at all?
I have gone by there at least 20 times over the past 2 weeks.
Everywhere from 2am to 2pm.
During the day they have about 2 cop cars at every entrance with a Beech Security station at each entrance.
There are about 5 strikers there and during the night even less.
Where are they all at?
Strike duty is assigned Nathan. But you would not know that.
It’s stupid to even try to make the claim you are making. This accident happened as a rally of several thousand was forming up.
My sister has been out there on both assigned and volunteer picketing.
I don’t know; but Nathaniel, if it is such a burning concern to you, why don’t you go ask one of the picketers?
I go by there daily also and rarely see more than 4-6 strikers at each entrance.
The strikers are only required to put in a few hours a week walking the gates.
Aren’t the numbers allowed at each gate something agreed to between the company and union? Or one of those decided by the courts as the two go back and forth to the courts to try to get an advantage through court orders?
I know someone really well who has difficulty getting in and out of the plant daily. Spends about an hour extra each day in an effort to get to work and then home afterward.
“When I hired in, the premium on health insurance was $7 now they want to make it $90?”
back in my day that was only a nickel!
Looks like there were other issues besides what’s mentioned so far:
Health care, pensions, subcontracting were major issues.
The union opposed a reduction in earned time off for new hires from 10 days maximum to five days, unrestricted overtime for irregular work weeks and the downgrading of two job classifications for new hires.
Sounds like the big issues would be the workers aren’t willing to follow the trend of the recent 7 yrs., and sell out the new workers, and the unrestricted overtime with irregular work weeks.
See the obvious contempt from bn?
Avtolle,
It is not a “burning” concern of mine. Just making an observation with a question.
I simply think it is rather odd that there is almost more “response” personnel than strikers is all.
BlueJay then proceded to call me a liar. Any of you can drive by anytime to see what I am talking about.
Linda,
I am not sure how your friend can have that much trouble getting in and out of the plant.
When there is Beech security and local law enforcement at every gate how do the strikers get in the way?
I have seen traffic go in and out with no problems at all.
“It reads like you are more than 30 years removed.”
Nope, junior,
I’ve only been out of the Navy 22 years. All of my plant experience has been since then.
Check out my short list of qualifications, many are very recent and ongoing. Plus, I didn’t have to drag my inlaws in to pad the list.
Furthermore, I know more about the health plans than you’ll ever know.
I claim the title of “aircraft worker BLOG expert.” My experience is diverse and extensive. I have a lot more experience other than being a butt-boy for the union bosses.
Claim what you like while you make the wife’s coffee Hank.
I don’t seek reflection in your eyes.
As I recall, the picket has the right to stop each car for one minute. At least those were the rules when I was with my Dad on picket in 84.
It adds up.
BlueJay,
Didn’t know that. Interesting.
I just don’t see how any of the ‘issues’ are big enough to strike for.
So you have to work overtime… If I am hired to do a job, I am going to work the extra hours neededed so I can meet the deliverables I agreed to with a quality level I am happy with. Granted, I am salary and non-represented.
Do unioners take their jobs thinking they are going to show up at 6:30 and leave at 3 everyday without regard for workload and deliverables? (serious question, I would love insight from someone that has worked union about how they view their jobs)
Each car must request permission to enter and to leave and yes the striker may stop each car a certain amount of time — after they acknowledge the request. Workers may enter and leave at specified gates which means extra driving. It gets complicated and then once learned, changes.
“Do unioners take their jobs thinking they are going to show up at 6:30 and leave at 3 everyday without regard for workload and deliverables?”
Well, yes.
That and there are rules that the company negotiates with the union as to overtime. The company (well this one anyway) is forever dickering with the rules.
In one contract, the union negotiated to do away with mandatory overtime.
The company and a squad of lawyers ultimately got around that by changing mandatory overtime to required overtime.
““Do unioners take their jobs thinking they are going to show up at 6:30 and leave at 3 everyday without regard for workload and deliverables?”
Well, yes.”
Don’t they care whether the company is able to deliver planes on time (and on quality)?
And seriously, does anyone take a aircraft manufacturing job and expect they will work no overtime? It just comes with the territory.
For example, I am an accountant, so I know that during certain times of the year more hours will be required, it is just part of the job to work overtime.
Some people like overtime. For a single dad like me, it was a headache I did my best to avoid.
Overtime is often badly abused to keep from hiring the number of workers needed to do the job. It seems as if there is an attempt at more of that with this contract.
I’m not a union member, nor have I been, brian; but the response to your question, from what I understand the traditional union perspective to be, is that if production needs are such as you describe, then additional labor should be hired by the employer (who might then, at least in Kansas, also join the union).
“Don’t they care whether the company is able to deliver planes on time (and on quality)? ”
Quality yes. I never met a person who wanted to turn out slop work in aircraft parts. Quantity goes more to scheduling and materials and having the right number of workers to do the job.
So the unioners do not care that it will cost the company a lot more to hire more workers than to ask for overtime?
Do they not understand that if the company has to do that the union will suffer as well because when the company is less profitable they cannot/do not give as big raises or benefit increases?
‘“Don’t they care whether the company is able to deliver planes on time (and on quality)? ”
Quality yes. I never met a person who wanted to turn out slop work in aircraft parts. Quantity goes more to scheduling and materials and having the right number of workers to do the job.’
I am sure no one would intentionally turn in crappy work, but are they willing to put forth extra effort to ensure that what they turn in is quality?
I should have also included profitibilty in that as well. Don’t they care whether the company is profitable?
I’m actually pretty used to this.
How many times have I had to hash stuff out with the bean counters?
Well brian, one of the benefits of a labor union is that the workers have a collective voice.
The company was never much interested in MY interests. Why would I have any particular interest in theirs?
KansasNative
Posted August 20, 2008 at 5:43 pm | Permalink
When I first heard about the striker being killed I naturally assumed that Hank (our self professed aircraft expert) had finally found THE NEED TO KILL SOMEONE.
After all if a person strikes your car in an accident, pulling your concealed weapon and killing them is only an act of self defense.
—————————-
Well KsNative how disappointing it must have been to find out it was only one crazed union member doing in another union member with another registered weapon. His car.
#
KansasNative
Posted August 20, 2008 at 5:43 pm | Permalink
When I first heard about the striker being killed I naturally assumed that Hank (our self professed aircraft expert) had finally found THE NEED TO KILL SOMEONE.
After all if a person strikes your car in an accident, pulling your concealed weapon and killing them is only an act of self defense.
Love ya Hank…just don’t want to be ya or your sorry brain damaged son.
_______________________________________________
You can make a post this sick and ignorant and you can worry about me and my son’s brain?
My heavens man! You are one sick son of a bitch!
“Well KsNative how disappointing it must have been to find out it was only one crazed union member doing in another union member with another registered weapon.”
There is nothing to indicate that either of the unfortunate individuals was “crazed”.
Out of deference to the families of these two men, I ask that the editors that the comment at 5:47 be removed.
Please remove my 5:51 comment as well.
This isn’t nearly as simplistic as JR would make it seem VT. New hires would have to be trained and new machinary installed in order to turn out more product. Then if this was a rush job that would go away, the layoffs would come.
One of the largest expenses any business has is the expense of training new employees. I would think by the product turned out the training period might be higher than other businesses.
There would constantly be a hire and layoff situation unless it was a permanent growth. When temporary it would make no sense to not offer overtime to trained workers. Only when permanent would it make sense to hire permanent workers.
BJ when PMoms first post the day it happened was that someone murdered this man – well your outrage would have been appropriate.
The left doesn’t have the corner on crassness as my post showed. I do apologize to the families involved because they didn’t deserve it then and they don’t now.
You and Ksnative on the other hand are poor pathetic idiots and should apologize to the Prices for your stupidity.
You clearly are not in any sort of production business okobserver. You don’t invest millions of dollars in machinery for a temporary boom.
You also do not work people until they fall over dead as long as they have a union.
Though, I was involved in one case where a guy who had a heart attack was written up for wasting company time! We won that one after a brief and stupid fight.
Starting to get the idea of where the REAL money is wasted brian?
I don’t own anybody’s words but my own there okobserver. I also didn’t start anything here.
Not here huh KansasNative?
It’s a request by the way KansasNative.
Just as I don’t own anyone else’s words, I won’t presume to tell what to say or not say.
But don’t do what you’re doing here please?
Be nice to Nathan Kansas Native.
He was gracious in learning something new today.
Even in a “right to work” state like Kansas, a picket line would be pretty meaningless if people could just drive by it or over it without the strikers having the chance to plead their case.
I’m surprised you are not more interested in worker rights there okobserver. Even if you are on the other end of that equation, the right to collectively bargain has elevated you as a woman.
My mother was FIRED from this same company by the original owners for?
Getting pregnant with me. Back then, a company could immediately fire a woman for getting pregnant.
It cost my mom 7 years of pension. I never hear the end of it.
BJ I am looking at it from the workers as well as the companies viewpoint. Short time boom would require that some overtime be mandatory so the company could meet delivery times.
Now if the union determined that the company made outrageous promises they couldn’t deliver then there would need to be some dialogue with the union.
It is never one sided though. Every business has deadlines. As an accountant mine was the end of every month, the end of the year, and tax time.
I never once said like YOU did that I “MIGHT NEED TO KILL SOMEONE”.
Yeesh. The voice of ignorance.
Hank, I’ve never understood why that post of yours, so long ago, struck such a nerve. Most of those so upset weren’t the least interested in what you had to say, of course; they were just looking for a misquote or non-contextual quote to bash you with.
Most of us know better, and it’s apparant the silliness doesn’t get to you. Good for you. Bad on them.
KansasNative, I’ll refer you to an essay by someone who did “need to kill someone.” Read it. Perhaps you’ll come away with more understanding.
http://ydr.inyork.com/ydr/opinion/ci_10219218
Read. Really read, with an open mind. Not scoring petty point, not looking to buttress your point of view, just read. You may not agree, but you should at least understand.
Then we’ll talk.
Well it sounds like you have a lot to make up to your mother.
The union only has the capacity to negotiate overtime rules over a contract duration during contract negotiations okobserver.
It is not their role to engage in business projections. They have better things to do.
I should go and read through the contract.
I hope they are negotiating for COLA.
C ost O f L iving A djustment.
We lost that in 93. It would be damned good to have just now.
COLA allows that workers will get a wage increase if certain economic conditions come about. Like say a spike in gas prices?
Not actually what I meant. If the company has a history of requiring lots of OT instead of hiring enough workers then this becomes a contract issue. I’m aware it can’t be negotiated after the fact.
I really can see both sides of this if that is what is holding up the contract. The health insurance issue doesn’t sound like enough to strike over.
Well, I’m absent the place a while.
Under Raytheon? It was SO badly run.
I am not optimistic.
Okobserver? You brought up the cost of training new workers?
Well guess what they did at HB or whatever they call it now?
They put on a whole bunch of new workers. Then they told them that striking during their 90 day probation period would equal abandoning their job!
That is entirely illegal. But they used it as a bully tactic. As we see it didn’t work. But you can see where they were going.
All that waste in those probationary workers that are gonna get laid off right after production catches up after the strike. Sigh…
Something happens to people when they sit behind a desk too long. All the blood goes to their butt or something and they go dead in the brain.
Not all people BJ. Some do I’ll admit it and usually those somehow always end up in top management. I hope this strike works out and is short lived. I’ve been where they are too many times.
I agree KansasNative, old man price IS a loser.
His gun-nut son is addled, we should have pity on his poor soul.
“Not all people BJ. Some do I’ll admit it and usually those somehow always end up in top management.”
Aint that the truth.
At this place they don’t even promote from the floor anymore. Not that I ever wanted to be management and my Dad several times turned it down.
THAT is biting them in the rear right about now. There is very little in production in those plants that can be done by the office people. They’ve had no exposure to it. As I said earlier, a very real possibility for someone to get hurt.
For any on the fence or against these people exercising their right to bargain collectively?
They’ve had a rough go for a long time. THIS wonderful company had another little practice that merits mention here.
Every new worker I ever knew (except me, oddly enough) got laid off their first year just before Thanksgiving and then called back in January.
So the company did not have to pay them for Christmas week.
Yeah. Happy Holiday!
Drive by these folks. Honk your horn or give them a thumbs up.
Seems like they will be going back to the negotiating table. I can’t imagine how uneasy it will be to go back to work after all the bad words and feelings.
I was in a union once…never really understood the “us vs. them” mentality. Union or not, if I hated the place I worked, I quit–and have done so.
But…some people find a lot of value in it..hope they are able to get back to work…
BTW… Boeing votes on their contract on Sept 3 with the national union already approving a strike (if necessary) by an overwelming majority.
In Wichita, Spirit and Boeing could shut down.
With boeing not having to pay increases to the sold off Wichita workers, and being so far behind on record orders, I don’t anticipate a long strike should one occur.
“Seems like they will be going back to the negotiating table. ”
Yeah and I can’t start to say when.
I grew up with this cycle every three years. When there was a strike, the company would ALWAYS do nothing for the first two or three weeks. Trying to see if the strike would break?
But now? It’s a whole new generation in there. There’s likely little to no management that remembers a strike. They started gutting management right after old lady Beech died. There IS a block of workers that would remember the last strike. But there aren’t a whole lot of them either.
That’s another bad thing about going so long without a strike. Nobody is practiced in management in knowing when to blink.
The least of mgmt.’s worries is how many people they might have to lay off. That would go for salary and production alike. Layoffs are just a mgmt. tool of the trade. Workers are one of their most expendable assets.
Except that when a strike occurs, the company gets automatic exrensions on delivery dates…just one reason that management “negotiates” a strike rather than a contract.
Well GM,
Kansas Native doesn’t get to me. I use to think he was just ignorant and with a little eduction you could have a talk with him. But now I know that he is incurably stupid and seems to rejoice in it.
I carry concealed in case I have t kill some one. That is the only valid, legal reason to carry a handgun concealed. Doesn’t make me mean. Doesn’t make me crazy. Doesn’t make me violent.
It makes me prepared.
Prepared to protect me and mine from injury and death at the hands of a criminal.
I have a license to carry my handgun concealed. The license was issued by the State of Kansas after an extensive background check and after I went to class room training and passed a written test. After I went to the firing range and passed a practical test.
There is only one valid reason for me to pull out my handgun. That is if I fear for serious personal injury or my life or the life of someone near me. Kansas law is very specific on the rules of engagement for use of my hand gun. I can not use it to threaten people. I can not brandish it in public to impress people. The only valid reason for me to draw it is if I plan to use it.
I am licensed by the State of Kansas to carry my hand gun concealed in case I need to kill someone.
When some incredibly stupid nitwit like like KansasNative implies that I am looking for some one to kill it is not worth responding to. It is a statement that merely proves that he is not mature enough nor smart enough to discuss the events of the day with adults.
When Apophis hides behind his nic to defame my boy and I he justs proves what an incredibly chicken shit coward he really is. I am seriously concerned for the children that the State puts in his care every day for their government education.
This is the last time I will refer to Apophis by his nic. If the poor little cowardly educator keeps up with his personal attacks on me I will start using his real name to address him on this BLOG. I will post his name address and phone number and his wife’s name every time I respond to one of his juvenile attempts at locker room humor directed toward me.
The editors take no responsibility for the nuts and their profane language and personal attacks on this BLOG. For all practical purposes they have allowed it to become a ‘free fire zone’. That’s the bad news. The good news is that both sides can play.
Last warning friends, elevate the discourse or be prepared to take responsibility for your posts under your real name and address.
Fire away old man price.
NITWIT
Apophis…whether you approve or not, the law in Kansas does allow people to carry concealed weapons after testing, training, and background checks. That is the law that was passed and signed by the governor. If you hate it so much, get your lazy butt off this blog and DO something about it. I have had a bill introduced in the legislature and have testified in front of a committee on it.
If you are so violently opposed to concealed carry, form an organization, get some support and get it changed. Otherwise your constant whining here and insulting snipes at people who follow the law is pretty meaningless.
…..ah, raptor………the issue with old price is his desire to “out” me.
I could care less if has this genitalia deficincy complex that requires him to carry a “piece” to compensate.
Ok, I tried to get this stopped.
“elevate the discourse ”
Please get over yourself Hank. You came to this thread specifically to pick a fight with me.
Other posters saw your invitation for a mud fight and jumped in. If they did it for me I’m grateful but I asked them to stop. This thread is more important than that. Then GMC ginned it up again and here you are rolling the ball downhill.
JR………….old man price picks a fight with someone on EVERY thread.
He thinks the world is actually how he sees it.
LOL
nitwit
“Does the State of Kansas know that ol’ Hank carries a gun specifically “in case I need to kill someone”?”
Why else would one carry a gun? To shoot an attacker in the knee? Conceal carry folks know why they conceal carry. It’s called protection.
Pantywaists.
Dear KansasNative,
You did imply that I am looking for some one to kill.
“When I first heard about the striker being killed I naturally assumed that Hank (our self professed aircraft expert) had finally found THE NEED TO KILL SOMEONE.”
Note the wording,
“. . .had finally found . . .”
The obvious implication is that I have been looking.
Again you are one sick son of a bitch.
You are nothing more than a cowardly nic.
If you take that as an insult to your mother, so be it. What is your mother’s nic? KansasNative’sMom?
nics don’t have mothers. You, in real live dishonor your mother with your profane and childish posts. Don’t lay it on me.
nitwit
BlueJay,
I posted my credentials. I’ve had more productive, more extensive and more diverse contact with the aircraft industry in the last twenty years than you have. Fact.
I read the contract the Machinist Union is striking over. I understand more about the health care benefits than you do. I know more about all the benefits that the Machinist Union has negotiated for their members in all the aircraft companies than you do. Fact.
I know what HBC has, I know what they are offering and I know the union ‘talking points’ on what they are striking for. Fact.
You are the one that ‘kicked the ball downhill’ by name calling in first post.
…….is there ANYTHING old man price is NOt an expert on?
Tell everyone old man, HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?
#
Apophis
Posted August 20, 2008 at 8:53 pm | Permalink
…….is there ANYTHING old man price is NOt an expert on?
Tell everyone old man, HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?
——————
I don’t know the answer to that either.
Tell me how old the earth is precisely. When exactly did the earth become earth. I’ll accept an answer plus or minus 1000 years.
I’ll wait.
When Apophis hides behind his nic to defame my boy and I he justs proves what an incredibly chicken shit coward he really is. I am seriously concerned for the children that the State puts in his care every day for their government education.
HLP
Posted August 20, 2008 at 7:40 pm | Permalink
This is the last time I will refer to Apophis by his nic. If the poor little cowardly educator keeps up with his personal attacks on me I will start using his real name to address him on this BLOG. I will post his name address and phone number and his wife’s name every time I respond to one of his juvenile attempts at locker room humor directed toward me.
***************************************************************************
…………..STILL WAITING OLD MAN!
nitwit
JR………….old man price picks a fight with someone on EVERY thread.
Yeah I know. I think it’s an adequacy thing. He’s been like that from the beginning especially toward me. I know what he is so I mostly swing back a little and then consider the source.
……….troll mccluer, crawl back into the cold, damp and dark depths of your sister’s basement and mind your own business.
So Apophis,
Exactly how old is the earth plus or minus a thousand years?
“I posted my credentials. I’ve had more productive, more extensive and more diverse contact with the aircraft industry in the last twenty years than you have. Fact.”
And I worked there IN the shop recently. FACT.
“You are the one that ‘kicked the ball downhill’ by name calling in first post.”
Well look there folks. NOW I need Hank’s permission to post?
Good luck with that.
“However[,] when a man as hateful as HLP declares that he went to the trouble of getting said permit “in case I need to kill someone”. . .”
There are several people that post on this BLOG that have gone to the trouble to get their CCH permit.
They can contribute a lot to the topics that concern firearms and the State law concerning their concealed carry.
If at some point during the procedure required to get their license, beginning, middle or end, it did not dawn on them the seriousness of their endeavor then I don’t want them around me.
The purpose of a hand gun that you carry for the expressed purpose of self defense is to kill. If you can’t come to grips with that fact your gun is a greater danger to yourself than to any body else.
“Well look there folks. NOW I need Hank’s permission to post?
Good luck with that.”
What a nimrod.
How long has it been since you ‘worked IN the shop’? I’ve known you going on three years. You’ve been an unemployed whiner the whole time.
“I read the contract the Machinist Union is striking over.”
And I know what the working conditions there are and have posted some as to my experience there Hank.
By a vote of 90% the work force agrees with me.
You’ve no dog this fight. You just came here to swing your little dick around.
Looks like Hank is having a bad day.
Heh heh. GOOD!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
(breath)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
JR commenting about ANYONE else “picking a fight” is truly rich. Pot, meet kettle.
I note, JR, you’ve disputed none of the facts Hank put forth. You can’t, of course. You’re too busy cheering on strikers – who are actually putting their jobs and families on the line – from the safety of the sidelines. How convenient. I hear minstrels singing . . .
KansasNative – did you read the essay? I’d guess not. Read it. Then we’ll talk. I’ll even post the link again.
http://ydr.inyork.com/ydr/opinion/ci_10219218
You might learn something. Or is that what scares you so?
Hank didn’t put any facts forth there GMC.
From his wife’s office where he works, he attempted to be an authority on the labor situation at an aircraft plant where I used to work.
His sole purpose here was to start a mudfight and then he wants to cry when he gets hit.
And you, without any real opinions offered or personal experience snipe from behind his skirts.
I’d hoped for better for this thread than that and I did try.
But as we all know. I can “go there” with the worst of them.
“You’ve no dog this fight. You just came here to swing your little dick around.”
LOL
You’ve got no dog in this fight either!
I work with the employees, HR and their health care plan administers to get their care paid for. I’ve got a big dog in this fight!
I file insurance for HBC employees! They lose benefits I lose money!
You, on the other hand have absolutely nothing to win or gain in this fight!
When an employee that is one of our patients gets laid off we will provide continuing care for them and their families at no cost until they get back on their feet. Any employee of an aircraft company that loses benefits while on strike and under our care will get continuing care at no cost until they are back to work.
So you continue your little fight, junior. We’ll insure that none of the strikers that are our current patients don’t go without the care they need.
I’ve got no dog in the fight! What a stupid statement!
SCIENCE, a word unknown to some bloggers here, generally accepts the Earth to approximately 4.5 – 4.55 billion years old mccluer.
How’s that bone dig going on me old man price?
Maybe you and boxtop should join forces to identify me and have the BOE fire me. Sorry, I doubt if President Lynn Rogers of VP Barbara Fuller would buy your evidence.
LOL
I’d hoped for better for this thread than that and I did try.
But as we all know. I can “go there” with the worst of them
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks, JR. I needed another good laugh.
—–
BTW, KansasNative, re: your “calling you mother a bad name” whine.
Do you really have to hide behind your mommy at this point in your life? Further, I note you did not repost what led to Hank’s response. On a blog known for less than civil discourse, you sought the lower depths. And did so out of the blue, raising an issue that was not in play at all. Hell, Hank was restrained.
Have you read the essay yet?
“You, on the other hand have absolutely nothing to win or gain in this fight!”
Materially no.
That is one among many differences between me and you.
It is true I do not work there anymore. But my friends did not stop being my friends. The people I fought for will stand on the ground I fought for. Just as future workers will stand on the gains they win now.
That is a concept lost on you cons.
“Hank didn’t put any facts forth there GMC.”
__________________________
Well, junior,
The short list of my credentials were facts.
How long has it been since you worked “IN the shop”?
__________________________
What exactly is your personal ‘dog in this fight’?
___________________________
Recently?
LOL
Apophis
Posted August 20, 2008 at 9:20 pm | Permalink
SCIENCE, a word unknown to some bloggers here, generally accepts the Earth to approximately 4.5 – 4.55 billion years old mccluer.
——————————–
Approximately?
I thought you knew how old the earth is and you give me an approximation?
So if zirconium oxides, the only native element of the earth is dated to be 3.9 billion years old, how can the earth be 4.5 billion years old?
Surely not meteors and meteorites, there would be no earth for them to land on.
Sheesh no wonder he is so heavy in the exclamation points and otherwise acting out.
“! They lose benefits I lose money! ”
His (or rather his wife’s) revenue stream is at odds with his inborn con hatred of labor unions.
Hate vs. money? That’s GOTTA be a tough call for a con.
I read the essay, GM,
Personally I would hate to ever have to use my hand gun to protect myself. However, I would never be able to live with myself if I had to stand by and see some one I loved and cherished be killed or severely harmed because I could not defend myself.
The only mistake the man in the essay made was shooting the man in the thighs. Triple tap, center mass.
Three years Hank. But I know what my friends go through there.
When were YOU last on the shop floor AT Hawker/Beechcraft formerly Raytheon Aircraft?
“His (or rather his wife’s) revenue stream is at odds with his inborn con hatred of labor unions.”
Spin it however you want, nitwit. I was merely explaining my ‘dog in the fight’. Over the years my wife has provided thousands of dollars of care at no cost to various people down on their luck. No thought to the money.
Hatred of labor unions? Only in your twisted little mind. I’ve belonged to the Machinists Union. I’ve belonged to a union as recently as two years ago. I have no hatred for anything or any one.
nimrod
Hate vs. money? That’s GOTTA be a tough call for a con.
Don’t think you’re in any position to complain about any hate, there, JR. You revel in it.
Taking him at his word, Hank apparantly has experience up and down the employee chain. And unlike you, Hank HAS a dog in this fight. You’ve got “feelings.” How nice.
Moreover, I don’t think he’s indicated which side he supports.
And, of course, he doesn’t roll about in hate daily.
Game, set, match. You’re done, JR.
“When were YOU last on the shop floor AT Hawker/Beechcraft formerly Raytheon Aircraft?”
It’s been a while, junior. Are we going to go down the list of all my credentials? Or are you only going to pick and choose among the ones you can talk intelligently about?
Many of the credentials I’ve listed are current and ongoing. It’s my job to stay current on health care benefits. OK, that wasn’t fair, I’ll give you time to look up the definition of ‘job’, it’s not really something shameful to admit having.
Hell, JR, you’re probably only a haircut and a clean T-shirt away from qualifying for a lot of decent jobs yourself! Of course you’ll need a little ‘want to’!
Well you have attacked me and spent a great deal of time and space talking about you Hank.
Are you in support of the strikers or not?
I have said that I am. I have said why. I even tried to stop a distraction that you started.
Are you for these people fighting for better compensation and associated working conditions?
Or no?
The me and you we have done and will do again I am sure. This thread is bigger to me than that.
……..I see little jimmiemac has been looking up stuff again on wikipedia.
Thanks GM!
I’ll gladly tell you which side I’m on! I want the employees to get more and better health care benefits! I want there to be positive incentives that reward the employees for taking the initiative in their health!
Unfortunately I feel the employees are asking for more than they’ll get and less than they deserve.
Here is what I think is a great question to ponder.
Why would a reichwing CON like old man price claim to have belonged to the Machinists Union at Hawker-Beechcraft “as recently as the last two years” in an open shop (”right to work”) state?
I think I’ll pull some strings at the Wichita/Hutchinson Labor Federation and find out if this is a fact or just another price lie. They love busting the chops of anti-union scum like the prices.
So you admit Hank that you are entirely self motivated in your interests.
Health care is only one issue and I would imagine not the key one.
When I quit, I was being forced to do work in 6 different job codes at least. I was getting paid to be skilled in 1. Too, overtime rules were being abused. It seems that this contract only continues that.
This is actually good for the company too.
Cessna workers are getting better paid to do the same jobs.
Now if I’M buying an airplane? That the workers that make my plane are paid the least is not a strong selling point.
So you admit Hank that you are entirely self motivated in your interests
As are the strikers. Duh.
” And unlike you, Hank HAS a dog in this fight. You’ve got “feelings.” How nice.”
What are YOU here to do other than nip at my ankles like usual GMC?
My Dad had much time and endeavor invested in the union. So did I.
I would not choose that place for my son to work, but some day? So may he.
As I say, it is not something a con can be made to understand.
“So you admit Hank that you are entirely self motivated in your interests
As are the strikers. Duh.”
I could go get you some quotes from strikers that were posted in the Eagle GMC. They would tend to prove me right and you wrong.
But as I say? It is not something you would understand.
As I was driving out to the country club this afternoon, I noticed exactly TWO strikers at the entrance to the AOB (I guess it’s still called that) at HBC.
When I finished my round of golf and headed home about 6 pm, they had upped the total to THREE strikers at the AOB.
Nathan is right – more cops than strikers.
It’s not hard to understand at all, JR. Your interests are driven by where your bread is buttered (almost entirely). That’s entirely normal. You lie to yourself in believing there are more “noble” reasons, of course, but there are not. Most people have similar lies to themselves.
What makes you a fool is your hatred for anyone who dares to disagree with you, apparantly, on anything at all. And in that you hurt only yourself. It makes not one whit of difference to me, JR, aside from the (admittedly twisted) fun of poking you with a sharp stick from time to time.
But you get yourself all wrapped up in it. Your hate, and yes, your bitter envy of anyone who does well, is your comfort. It lets you blame others for the ills you perceive have been rained upon you from “the man.” But you hurt only yourself. Well, almost. You hurt your son more.
It’s a bitter pill you’ve chosen, JR. If you love your son, you’ll walk away from your hate, JR, and demonstrate real tolerance for others.
The question is – whether you love your son more than you love your hate?
Are you going to comment on the thread or keep playing groupie to me GMC?
As you note, JR, I don’t really have a dog in this fight. A strike is always a gamble; the question is do workers gain enough to offset their losses, and what do they risk in the long run. The risks are huge, the benefits tenuous.
It’s also a risk for management. They have contract commitments to meet, orders to fill. A silent plant loses money. And management usually is in large part to blame for strikes; as I’ve noted before, the best union organizer in the world is bad management.
Whether it is a gamble that pays off remains to be seen. But despite the “worker of the world, unite!” rhetoric, it is at base about leveraging more dollars. It’s about self-interest. I simply recognize that.
Be kinder than necessary, because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
“Hatred of labor unions? Only in your twisted little mind. I’ve belonged to the Machinists Union. I’ve belonged to a union as recently as two years ago. I have no hatred for anything or any one.”
LOL,
For a professional ‘educator’ you sure seem to have a lot of problems with reading and writing!
Notice the statement,
“I’ve belonged to a union as recently as two years ago.”
It had to do with some work in California I was scheduled to do until the company ran out of money. It had nothing to do with the Machinists Union or Wichita.
Right to work state? I’ve got nothing against unions in general. I will join one when it is in my self interest to do so.
The NEA, on the other hand is communist, Marxist organization that has nothing to do with working for teachers and education and everything to do with advancing their left-wing socialist agenda. They have become so involved with socialist politics that you can no longer tell if they support the DNC or if the DNC belongs to them.
So, pull your strings. I’m going nighty-bye.
“as I’ve noted before, the best union organizer in the world is bad management. ”
I believe I have posted as to that and provided examples. The union vote would tend to affirm this as well.
“It’s also a risk for management.”
Not really. Not locally anyway. That is part of the problem.
You’re an intelligent if self bloated guy there GMC.
Let me show you where you are at odds…with yourself.
“A strike is always a gamble; the question is do workers gain enough to offset their losses, and what do they risk in the long run. The risks are huge, the benefits tenuous.”
V.
“It’s about self-interest. I simply recognize that.”
Defense rests.
Folks? Drive by these striking workers. Honk a horn or take them some cold drinks.
I usually give them the one-finger salute when I drive by.
Between the bag of cheetos, the ho ho’s the steering wheel…
and your butt crack and your nose?
You found a finger free goofnut?
=)
More of Juniors (lack of) intellect on display.
I’ll stand with my posts here today goofnut.
I invite you to stand next to a striker and offer your one finger salute.
Drive by insults say more about you than those you offer them to.
HA! The threat of violence from a union.
*shock*
Blue Jay,
If you want to to see really strong unions take a look back east. It’s been several years ago but my grandfather worked for Union Carbide in Ohio,they went on strike,stayed out if IRC for over a year,and nobody crossed a picket line or if they did they soon regretted it. Not saying I agree but just saying those boys back there don’t play nice
“Let me show you where you are at odds…with yourself.”
““A strike is always a gamble; the question is do workers gain enough to offset their losses, and what do they risk in the long run. The risks are huge, the benefits tenuous.”
V.
““It’s about self-interest. I simply recognize that.””
——
Nothing at odds there at all, JR. A striker takes enormous risks. When the striker goes out, much is lost. Certainly immediate wages, perhaps jobs, permanently. This in hopes of gaining concessions.
But while the losses are certain, real, and immediate, the concessions are uncertain, hoped for, and in the future. Moreover, given the costs, the additional wages/benefits son must be substantial to justify striking. How long will the striker have to work at the new pay/benefits scale to make up his investment in lost wages during the strike? Two years? Three? Four?
At that, a striker can only a guess.
You think the union hasn’t done this sort of calculus? I don’t doubt they have; if they haven’t, they are truly fools. ANY rational person would.
No, JR, I’ll stand entirely by my statement.
I guess the ” defense” rested a bit soon, huh?
Try and diminish it any way you wish GMC.
Some of the key issues in this strike give lie to your premise that each striker is just a self interested individual.
Indeed the whole idea of collective bargaining is that there is safety in numbers and people looking out for each other.
Key issues in this contract are diminished rights for junior workers and compensation for retired workers. Two very disparate groups acting with solidarity in each others interests. Another key issue is the attack on two job codes.
There are dozens of job codes. If you were right that theses workers are all selfishly motivated, the entire union would not be standing up for the limited number of people in two job codes. But they know that if the company can screw over some they can ultimately give the shaft to everyone.
And me? All the nights I spent up writing grievances WERE personally fulfilling. But that’s the limit of anything I selfishly got out of them.
I can report that morale on the picket line is high. Scabs are few and their pictures adorn a “wall of shame”.
But they know that if the company can screw over some they can ultimately give the shaft to everyone.
Yup. And that is self-interest, pure and simple. However you break it down, it boils down to self-interest. Workers join unions in the first place because they believe it is in their interest to do so – the believe that the benefits are worth the costs. They vote to join a strike for the same reasons. Their interests lie in joining the collective action – as you put it yourself, there is safety in numbers.
That they see their interest in joining group action is not at all antithetical to that; indeed, it reinforces it. Self-interest is not always measured in dollars, of course, though that’s the prime motivator. For some, being a part of the organization, something bigger than yourself is a reward of its own. You apparantly get a perverse pleasure in making someone else’s life miserable (yes, I admit, with some defendants, I do to).
But underlying it all, one way or another, is pure self-interest. Duh. This is so simply because human beings are human beings. And some things never change.
Why you go to such lengths to deny the obvious is beyond me: people generally act in what they believe is their self-interest. Perhaps you need to see yourself as something more than just an individual seeking his own way. You get satisfaction from that, and more power to you. But it is your own interest you serve in doing so. In the process you serve others, as well, of course. Such is the beauty of the “invisible hand” Smith described.
“…people generally act in what they believe is their self-interest.”
I do agree, but, isn’t that the premise of “What’s the matter with Kansas”?
He contends people don’t do that. When I was dead, flat broke, I still voted Repub. I knew/hoped I wouldn’t always be that way and maybe I was thinking about the “fairness” of it all.
Yes you were discussed at short length this evening fleetwood.
GMC? You are a con and do not get it and moreover do not want to.
I often defended people who would NOT join the union. But they were shop personell and mostly I did as much or more for them then I did for a dues paying member.
I am really sorry for you that you cannot see that there are people who see the world a little bigger than their own self interest.
I thought it was us liberals were supposed to be the cynics.
I ASKED for a thread like this. I have tried to keep it from degenerating. Even against my own self interest when personally attacked. I post here to speak for a union I WAS a part of.
What part of all of this do you not get?
Blue Jay,
A question when Boeing was on strike,my son a firefighter and emt out there crossed the picket line,the reason for doing so was to protect life and property. Just wanting your take on this,would you consider him and the other firefighters scabs?
Throw me a tough one like that when I was headed to bed Freebird?
Hmmm. Tough call.
“my son a firefighter and emt out there crossed the picket line,the reason for doing so was to protect life and property.”
In a strike, people are likely to get hurt when they are forced from office jobs into production jobs they know nothing about.
As to protecting property, I see no obligation. The firefighter is paid to protect company property. In a strike, that obligation is negated.
I’d have to leave that up to the judgment of the firefighter/union member and hope that they were not using their position as an excuse to cross the strike. To such a person I would say, “To thine ownself be true.”
Good answerAbout like the one I gave him when he asked for my opinion
Smarter answer:
Learn to think for yourself and not rely on the limited intellect of a labor union.
It really surprises me how some of you people have reacted to this strike. Yes, there has been some tradegy along the way but thats all part of life. Jeff Hart shouldnt have died the way he did but he was doing what he thought was right. Jeff went on strike because he knew the only way to make a difference was to stand up and fight for what he believed in.
I have watched these workers go up for a new contract many times and each time they walk away with less. They have finally been pushed to breaking point where something has to give. It’s a very sad thing that a company cannot offer it’s hard workers the benefits they deserve. Why sell them short?
The strikers are fighting for something that they believe in. Some people may view it as greedy, but look at it from another point view. They are fighting for the benefits of their families. If they dont stand up and fight for them who will? To answer my own question “no one.” It’s almost granteed that no one that doesnt work at HBC is going to come along and say “hey those workers deserve more, so let’s try and help them out.” My father has worked many years for HBC and i have seen the toll it has taken on him. They are allowed to work them up to three weeks straight before the company HAS to let them have a weekend off. I understand that some consequnces comes with working aircraft. But the company should be able to offer better benefits then what it has in the past. We live in a right to work state but we treat our workers like crap. Why is it so hard to give these workers a decent contract for once? Instead of giving them the bottom of the barrel, let’s show them some apprecation.
I have to say that i’m proud of these workers that have chosen to strike. Many people are too much of a coward to stand up for what they believe. There might be some set backs to this strikes but anything worth fighting takes time and loss.
I am really sorry for you that you cannot see that there are people who see the world a little bigger than their own self interest.
I’m a realist, JR. People are what they are.. Enlightenment simply means recognizing that my interest is bound up in the interests of others, as it often is. And that’s all a union is. Stripped of its “workers of the world” rhetoric, it’s about self-interest. Always has been. Always will be.
Liberals as cynics? Not at all. Liberals are wide-eyed dreamers, believing that if those “evil” institutions (just drop in the appropriate label against whatever institution they are railing against at the time) would get out of the way or be suitably reformed, then goodness and peace would break out all over.
They have no understanding of basic human nature.
JR I just heard Obama say that we should look to China for an example of how our country can rebuild it’s infrastructure. What about the made in China tag doesn’t he see. Labor over there is paid a pittance, they are worked long hours in bad conditions.
It scares me and probably should any American worker that he has that opinion.
what did u say about it?!