One good thing happened this week: The Fred Phelps clan ended up not protesting at the funeral of a Canadian man who was beheaded on a Greyhound bus. One Phelps group was barred at the border from entering Canada, but another, covert group supposedly entered Canada and had its hate signs mailed into the country. But none of the protesters showed up at the funeral this week, perhaps because they risked arrest under Canada’s hate-speech law. Just in case, uniformed Winnipeg police officers were posted at the doors and roof of the church. Phelps protesters also didn’t show up at the opening of a new theater production in Toronto titled “The Pastor Phelps Project” and subtitled “a fundamentalist cabaret.”
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Chas on Open thread 11/22
- george on Health care reform would save state money
- satatom on Open thread 11/22
- satatom on Open thread 11/22
- Politico on So they said
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
- JWink on Health care reform would save state money
- Politico on Health care reform would save state money
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
186 Comments
Phred Felps’ message is just a notch or two past what is worshiped by traditional evangelical “christians.”
All you twice-born Kansans know it.
Phred Felps simply says what you believe in words that you think.
In a perverse way, you almost have to admire Phred Felps for his willingness to say what all you twice-born really believe.
Yesterday Paul mentioned how much he adores the Phelps because they, like the Mormons, stick to their beliefs. Many Christians here on the Eagle Blog agree with the Phelps when it comes to their position on gays and the power of God to inflict torment upon people for their “sins”. They just don’t have the courage of the Phelps to stand on street corners with signs expressing their faith on how God hates everyone not like them.
yeah MonkeyHock, everyone not agreeing with your nut job ideology must be identical.
Of course, you forget that there are many denominations, many different approaches, many different races that attend these denominational churches. So what were you saying about Phelps and all Kansas Christians must be the same?
Let’s start with the Vietnamese Baptist Church and compare that to the African American Methodist Church.
go ahead MonkeyHock, let me know just how similar these churches are to Phelps and his gang.
You’re a nitwit.
I’ll wait on your comparison.
Are these two comments for real??? Where in the world does it say that God hates everyone not like them? A person can be against Gays without protesting at a soldiers funeral. Those families are grieving for their loved ones and don’t need that crazy Phelps bunch standing outside the funeral with signs saying the person deserved to die. That’s cruel and insensitive and I am sure the bible has something to say about how one is to treat their neighbor. I think when we all get to heaven we will surely notice the absence of Mr. Phelps.
How can the Phelps spreading the message of God to those people at a funeral be cruel and insensitive? Clearly you hate Christians and Christianity.
Gotta agree. Not much difference between Phelps and the balance of fundy Christians.
The Phelps gang is just more in your face about it.
Reg–you are so right. The biggest problem with extremists, whether they be Rush or people like MH and capn is that they have tunnel vision and only see things in black and white. It is their way or the highway, period.
There is no room for discussion, exchange of ideas, dissension or even a chance to learn something. It is sad to see the permanently closed minds of these people..and the unwillingness to even consider anything outside their closed little world of hatred and intolerance.
Boy, the anti-Christian bigots get up early around here. Good morning guys! Maggie, how’s it goin’? Hey BlueJay, Monkey…
How’s the coffee… Nice morning eh?
MH…I have stood a line many times between the phelps and the grieving family. I have seen firsthand the disgusting way they behave. Your comments are garbage and you know it.
You are accusing people of being happy someone died? You are sickening, as sickening as the phelps signs, like the “thank god for dead soldiers” signs.
Your sick comment of ” Phred Felps simply says what you believe in words that you think.” is beyond distasteful, it is disgusting.
Outlander, how is pointing out the fact that the Phelps spread the Christian gospel anti-Christian bigotry? I suppose the Phelps don’t go far enough in expressing the word of God since the Phelps don’t advocate the slaughter of gays.
Do you believe the Bible outlander? If you do then you believe all gays should be put to death. It’s pretty straightforward.
But Raptor, God has a plan. God wanted those soldiers dead. If God is all just, all holy, then his actions were thus so. So we should thank God for killing those soldiers as it is part of his perfect plan. Christians have told me that God has a plan but have dead soldiers somehow managed to trump that plan?
maggot….you obviously have never stood next to that crowd from Topeka. There is nothing Christian in their message. They are not promoting anything close to Christianity with their “thank god for 9-11″ signs.
Actually I have Raptor on a few occasions. You can check out my website if you’d like to see the photos.
Now if you are done whining can you answer the question?
There you go again Maggie. You zany bigots are a gas. Trying to tie the Phelp’s gang around the neck of Christianity.
They can call themselves what they want, but their message is not Christ’s.
So how’s the little wom.. um.. Never mind.
Your question? I am not into Christianity, I don’t know much of the Bible, and am not into this ‘God’s plan’ business, so, no, I cannot answer your question. I simply know that this disgusting group has already lost one lawsuit for intentional infliction of emotional pain and hope they lose many more.
The families are already suffering enough and do not need that filth around them..nor do they need supporters of that filth like you.
#
Maggotpunk
Posted August 14, 2008 at 7:57 am | Permalink
Actually I have Raptor on a few occasions. You can check out my website if you’d like to see the photos.
Now if you are done whining can you answer the question?
——————————-
You were in the Patriot Guard like Raptor, Maggot?
Oh wait, you don’t do that honor the veteran, flag and country stuff do you?
never mind.
Limbaugh might be obnoxious, and all of the rest of the things that are said about him…
But —- There is a radio show on every morning in this City that makes Limbaugh look like Sunday School…. This morning, they had the audacity to makethe allegation that the man who was killed yesterday in Arkansas, was a Clinton Hit…. since that person killed had once been their “friend”
That would be the “Walton and Johnson” show… Real bunch of bigots on that program…
“They can call themselves what they want, but their message is not Christ’s.”
Ya know? The rest of fundamentalist Christianity has NO trouble getting hundreds of people to protest at a place of business they don’t like.
They can organize an entire state population of the like and simple minded to enact laws against people they don’t like.
Why don’t I see an army of Christian soldiers surrounding and drowning out the Phelps gang?
“The families are already suffering enough and do not need that filth around them..nor do they need supporters of that filth like you.”
You and I agree, Christianity is filth. However I wonder where you got the absurd notion that I supported Christianity. Apparently you don’t spend much time on the forums here.
“You were in the Patriot Guard like Raptor, Maggot?
Oh wait, you don’t do that honor the veteran, flag and country stuff do you?
never mind.”
So in order to be a patriotic American I have to believe in everything you do? No, I don’t honor the flag because it’s just a symbol. Nor do I need to give special preferences to veterans who were gullible enough to be employed for the benefit of corporate expansion in the guise of “national security”. As for the country, I spend my days opposing fascists like you and working to preserve the Constitution from theocratic nationalists who think all free speech and freedom of conscience should be abolished for Big Brother’s ideals of flag worship and having romantic notions of the noble warrior.
You know Junior, if you would have taken a step inside any Christian Church for the past 40 years, you would know that the members of the Church are more interesting in planning what they are going to teach in Sunday School or how they are going to rotate the schedule in the Church daycare or how the Church’s budget is going to meet its mortgage payment or when the Church is going announce their mission fund or why the Church is going have a food drive, etc. etc.
You would know this if you attended Church, but you don’t.
You Junior, just make wild claims and assumptions on what Christians do in their Churches.
IMO, Phelps and his gang are not Christians, but a hate group hidden behind the placard of a denomination.
My only regret is that the Phelps children are suffering under these hate mongers.
“There you go again Maggie. You zany bigots are a gas. Trying to tie the Phelp’s gang around the neck of Christianity.
They can call themselves what they want, but their message is not Christ’s.”
Clearly none of you Bible thumpers can face the fact that the Phelps derive their message from your holy scripture. Your God, your Christ, is entombed in your sacred pages of scriptures and in the Old and New Testament homosexuality is frowned upon, as well as numerous other “sins”. No tittle of the law shall pass said your Jesus. Phelps reminds you of the ugliness of your religion and you are too ashamed of your own religion to admit he speaks the truth. As a Christian you should be standing out there with him rather than revering preachers who preach hatred of gays within the walls of a church behind a pulpit.
“You would know this if you attended Church, but you don’t.”
Why go to church when I can read your religion’s inspiration in the Bible? That is the basis of your religion isn’t it? Or is the basis of your religion acquiring more assets to worry about mortgage payments. Okay, it probably is that too.
But perhaps I’m wrong. I’m sure there must be a verse in the Bible which says near the end, “And thus Jesus spoke, ‘Just kidding about hating the gay thing.’”. Point me out to that one will you?
Care to defend yourself chas? Maggot thinks you hate gays. You a hater chas?
Your assignment is all wrong Maggot, as usual.
I support the fair and equal treatment of gays, including gay marriage. It is a fundamental right as outlined by the Constitution and the various laws passed hence.
However, as a Christian, my faith states that gay arrangements are not following the path of God.
How can I separate the two? It’s easy actually. As a Christian, I know what is God is God’s and belongs in the spiritual realm. What is mandated by the Bible is for the faithful not the blasphemers or those who would corrupt its interpretation.
As a citizen of this country, it’s the old “render under Caesar” advice give to us by Jesus Christ. His implication that we must obey the laws of the government (if they are just) and follow the law.
As a Christian, I have a duty to God to adhere to his word. What goes on in my heart or my church, does not affect what goes in the state of Kansas, other than I am a member of society with certain beliefs.
The Phelps are corrupt, blasphemers of God’s word and will suffer the judgment of God come judgment day. God doesn’t teach hate.
Why don’t I see an army of Christian soldiers surrounding and drowning out the Phelps gang?
——-
Not a bad idea BlueJay. Of course your suggestion way overstates the frequency and number of Christian folk who picket or protest anything. Most just try to live their lives the way the Lord would have us. Even at Tiller’s house of horrors, there are very very few.
But you are right, that would be something that would send a resounding message.
“God doesn’t teach hate.”
But Jesus says.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple.”
Luke 14:26
I was arrested and hauled off to jail for protesting against the Phred Felps pickets at a local military funeral.
The Patriot Guard was there but they didn’t step forward. They just sat there on their bikes and waved their flags.
What a bunch of wimps.
Phred Felps takes it to its (logical) extremes, but his homophobia is mainline evangelical philosophy.
All you self-proclaimed twice-born know it. You live it and you believe it. You’re rightfully ashamed at what you buy into with your “Jesus-ness” when Phred Felps says it out loud. But he’s simply giving a politically incorrect version of what you base your “salvation” on.
Good luck with that.
How long can you tread brimstone?
The funniest sight was seeing the Phelps protest Terry Fox’s Immanuel Baptist Church. Two groups fighting over who hates gays the most. But since Fox didn’t protest funerals the way Operation Rescue does, and saves his hate for the radio, tv and behind the pulpit it is considered more acceptable.
Why not a larger voice from the Christian community against Phelps’s gang.
Simple. Because embarrassing as they are, the Phelps bunch is the shock troops.
They do the job the rest of the church folk will only be sneaky about.
Don’t tell me about how busy the church is doing other things.
No link, but just the other day one of those “Focus on the Family” goons used his voice AND airtime to?
Pray for rain when Barack Obama accepts the Democratic nomination.
Chas? You going to take the banner of a hater that junior and maggot are hanging around your neck?
#
Maggotpunk
Posted August 14, 2008 at 8:28 am | Permalink
“God doesn’t teach hate.”
But Jesus says.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple.”
Luke 14:26
———————
We’ve discussed this before Maggot. The literal misinterpret ion you use is not accurate.
The parallel verse in Matthew states more clearly what the verse was to state:
Matthew 10.37:
“Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
It means that you cannot place conditions on your love for Christ, it is unconditional, it is a total required love.
This is not to say you cannot love your parents, brother or sister, but you cannot use their love as an excuse to abandon Christ. Or, you cannot use the love of parents, brothers or sisters to over ride the commandments set forth by the Bible.
Humans are prone to be deceptive without guidance from Christ. Through unconditional love of Christ we meet the challenges of knowing how to prioritize our spiritual love over our earthly love. Loving your parents, brothers or sisters will not get you to heaven. Loving and belief in Christ will get you to heaven.
I’ve heard this referred to as the “anti-hillbilly” code. Where, love of kin is more than the love of Christ and Hillbillies often feuded, killed and had bad intentions with their neighbors because of the their ‘love’ priority.
If they would set their priorities to the guidance of Christ, then the ‘hillbilly code” would be irrelevant in their life and it wouldn’t control them to do bad things.
“I was arrested and hauled off to jail for protesting against the Phred Felps pickets at a local military funeral…”
“You’re rightfully ashamed at what you buy into with your “Jesus-ness” when Phred Felps says it out loud. But he’s simply giving a politically incorrect version of what you base your “salvation” on.”
————-
I don’t believe anything you say Monkey, because you are a serial liar. But if you were arrested, it was for violating the free speech rights of those with which you disagree. Is that your message?
And you are either a hater or extremely ignorant of Christianity if you believe the Phelps’s message is what Christians base our salvation on. You are probably both.
Christianity:
The art of talking out of both sides of your ass.
Phelps is not spreading the word of God he is spreading the word of Phelps and somehow he has gotten a bunch of people to go along with it. He isn’t any different than those crazy cult leaders. How can standing on a street corner across the street from a house of worship holding signs that say God Hates You or God is your Enemy be considered spreading his word. God does have a plan and I believe when it is your time to go you will go no matter where you are. What I don’t believe is that God kills people because he doesn’t agree with choices they make. God loves us all and his son died on the cross for our sins because we are not perfect. I would bet that if Jesus were here today he would be out amongst his people spreading his word to the ones who wanted to listen but he would not be standing on a street corner with signs saying he hates us. For all of you who are agreeing with Phelps and hiding behind the guise of Christianity, isn’t this behavior breaking a commandant or two.
“Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
I guess I’m not worthy..religion for this very reason is such destructive force in the world. From the Muslim who will blow up his own children for his god to the family that disowns one of it’s own because he or she was born gay.
I prefer to think for myself than follow some book written 2,000 years ago by people who believed an epileptic was someone poccessed by the devil or that a woman should be stoned for getting raped. I don’t understand how such ignorance could withstand the test of time, but I guess humans will always need some rationale for their hatred and intolerance. That’s why the most popular weapon is not the gun, but the bible.
bunch of wimps? Hardley. The Patriot Guard is at funerals at the request and invitation of the families. We will not create a scene by being arrested, will not create a disturbance nor will we do anything to create disrespect. We shield the families from that hateful cult, and we are there out of respect for the fallen soldier and support for the family that is grieving.
We will not mar that grief by a personal display of illegal and juvenile behavior resulting in arrest like some people do. We are invited guests, and we act that way.
Luke 14:26
———————
We’ve discussed this before Maggot. The literal misinterpret ion you use is not accurate.
The parallel verse in Matthew states more clearly what the verse was to state:
Matthew 10.37:
So I gotta ask, “which is it”?
None of you neo-Christian freaks know anything about what you profess to have faith in. Stupid sheeple that deserve a good fleecing.
God has no religion. Religion is made by evil men to control and govern a stupid, lost and pathetic populace.
P.T Barnum was indeed correct.
Good morning Pleef. Having a good day? You seem a little grumpy.
“Raptor” –
You weren’t there, obviously.
The damnedest thing is, when they released me from jail I stopped in a beer joint and a bunch of the “Patriot Guard” were there and bought me a few rounds. After the fact, they were more than willing to support me. But when it mattered, they were wimps.
Typical CONs.
The portrait of the “intellectual” Christian Hater-
http://www.maggotpunks.com/MTP/ddd05.jpg
I always try and have a good day,thanks. I’m not sure if I’m grumpy or not. Just a little frustrated is all.
But, a very good morning to you as well.
When you folks say that “it’s a good idea” to protest Phelps but don’t because you just want to “live life quietly as a good Christian” or whatever, you are essentially denying The Christ. You won’t stand up for Him when someone is obviously “blasheming” His teaching.
And you call me a tin-foiler. The only difference between you and I is the type of hat. Yours being a “tin foil halo”.
Thank you, Raptor. I always feel proud when I see you guys.
Once again, MH is an ass. And an asshole. But we knew that already.
Then there is this little turd from Maggot (how appropriately nic’d he is!):
I spend my days opposing fascists like you and working to preserve the Constitution from theocratic nationalists who think all free speech and freedom of conscience should be abolished for Big Brother’s ideals of flag worship and having romantic notions of the noble warrior.
If I thought Maggot had any conception what “fascism” really is/was, I’d worry. But he doesn’t. He only has his marching orders form DU/DailyKos. Just throw the word as red meat.
In fact, as I think about it, given MH, MP, & JR’s comments on this thread, what is clear is that MH, MP, and JR are in fact soulmates with Phelps & Co. Both seek to eliminate views they hate, and have no tolerance of others who disagree with them. They are one of a kind; peas in a pod. Congratulations, MH, MP, JR. Enjoy your company.
The only folks I see actively attempting to abolish free speech and freedom of conscience is the left. No one is more intolerant than those ‘champions’ of tolerance; this thread is proof enough of that.
Having thus disposed of the “Tolerance” Trio, one interesting thing in this story is that Canada, unlike the US, has no 1st amendment. Canada, in fact, has a Human Rights Commission which will punish what it considers “hate speech.” Like most such bodies, it’s ideologically driven, of course, considering “hate” to be “what we disagree with.”
Check it out – The Human Rights Commission’s website:
http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/default-en.asp
And a some of its critics:
http://www.macleans.ca/canada/opinions/article.jsp?content=20080117_24131_24131&page=1
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/06/canadas-human-rights-commission.html
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/canada%E2%80%99s-human-rights-kangaroo-court/
Americans, as much as we despise the Phelps clan’s actions (and for good reason) need only look north to understand and be thankful for what we have. Even if that means tolerating Phelps. And yes, his fellow travelers MH, MP, and JR.
Hey Raptor,
Of all the various ‘contributors’ to this BLOG, I respect you the most.
God bless you for what you and the other Patriot Guard members do.
Hank
You are so full of it GMC. The comparisons of the fascists to the neocons are dead on and you can even see where the neocons took nearly word for word ideals and put them into play.
#
Pleefer
Posted August 14, 2008 at 9:29 am | Permalink
When you folks say that “it’s a good idea” to protest Phelps but don’t because you just want to “live life quietly as a good Christian” or whatever, you are essentially denying The Christ. You won’t stand up for Him when someone is obviously “blasheming” His teaching.
And you call me a tin-foiler. The only difference between you and I is the type of hat. Yours being a “tin foil halo”.
===================================
It’s a matter of gather in “Christ’s Name.” Gathering a huge crowd of Christians to drown out Phelps would serve whose purpose?
It certainly wouldn’t serve the purpose of Christ as Christians are to spread the teaching of Christ, not hate.
A gathering of Christians to protest Phelps would put the Christians on the same level as Phelps in the eyes of God and the eyes of the Law. It would serve no purpose to be disobedient to God or the law.
It has been suggested that Christians request from the family to attend the funeral officially so they mind stand in the cemetery blocking the view and providing a sound proof barrier of flesh. However, that would be imposing on the family and assuming they want Christian support or perhaps they have different views about their spirituality.
The best thing is what is being done currently. Organizations like the Patriot Guard that escort our fallen with honor and dignity.
The other thing would be that if the Press cooperated and gave the Phelps zero coverage. The Phelps want press and want to be noticed, ignore them I say and they will wither on the vine.
It would have been really nice had the patriot guard been formed when the phelps clan were protesting gay funerals.
Mary speaks for me above. Evilbible.com
P-mom:
The charge of “fascism” is a serious one, and one which should be reserved for the real thing. The moonbat left has made it nothing more than a convenient label to throw at those they disagree with. They – and apparantly you – have no conception of what they speak.
The term as used by the DailyKos/DU crowd is good for one thing, however. Once someone throws it around – like you have – it lets people who actually think know that you no longer need be taken seriously.
Thanks for that.
BTW – the charge of “traitor,” also thrown around, serves a similar purpose. Those who use it little understand what treason really is, and use it only as red meat. Its use to label those who the speaker disagrees with serves notice – to those who think – that the speaker need not be taken seriously.
I love the fact that a few days ago we all came to the conclusion that Christianity was off limits for discussion. And then today we have another thread that attempts to lump all Christianity with extremeists who only want to advance their own agenda.
Maggot, MH, Bluejay, Pmom and even Mary have names for ‘all’ Christians. Not one of them has anything good to say about the community work most Christians do, about how much is given back to the community, about groups like Doctors without Borders who build hospitals and do volunteer work in third world countries, about The Lords Diner and His Helping Hands which feeds and clothes the homeless.
No they want to put Christians in a neat little hole which is a lot like their minds. Limited in their ability to think outside their prejudices they label all Christians and conservatives as evil.
I feel truly sorry for you. How hard it must be to carry around the hate you lug every day of your lives.
Thanks, Hank and Mary.
You just don’t get it, do you mh? As individuals, we can do as we please–including buying people beer if we wish. But as Patriot Guard, we are honor bound (a concept that obviously is foreign to you) to behave in a respectful, dignified and LEGAL manner. We are not to respond to the cult, we are not to create a disturbance, and we are not to cause or contribute to any disruption. Many of us would love to cross the street and deal with that cult in our own way–but as Patriot Guard, we cannot.
This has nothing to do with political leanings or thought (regardless of your ‘typical cons’ comment). It has to do with respect, honor, and commitment–things you obviously simply do not understand.
I wonder what the conviction rate among people who get arrested at a Phelps protest is? I couldn’t imagine its very high, short of killing one of them it doesn’t seems like it would be very hard get acquitted, and I can see an acquittal possible even for killing one
When, whatever President is giving his SOTU address, he is flanked by two fasces lictoriae. That is the symbol for the power of the state, not the people. So, maybe Maggot is on to something.
Fascism, the union of corporation and government which embraces a union with nationalism and religion. The Christian reich loves to utilize military imagery. They have their own flag, love to use terms like “culture war”. They wrap themselves in a flag and talk about how they are doing battle for the Lord. They scapegoat gays, non-believers, secularists, etc. as enemies to society who corrupt pure American ideals. Naturally the religious nationalists are merely the foot sholdiers for corporate interests who want to abolish unions, immigration restrictions, minimum wages, worker protection, safety and health regulations, etc. It’s no surprise you have leaders in the Religious Reich supplementing their sermons on religion with sermons on politics with people like Pat Robertson calling for a tax cut for the wealthy as being godly.
Fascists no longer march in the street with their military uniforms. They’ve been replaced with business suits and crosses around their neck. The neo-cons in the Bush administration are following the old fascist play book, anyone who has studied the history of fascism will see the similarities.
“Maggot, MH, Bluejay, Pmom and even Mary have names for ‘all’ Christians. Not one of them has anything good to say about the community work most Christians do, about how much is given back to the community”
That’s not true and you know it outlander.
There used to be a poster here named kansassam.
I regularly recognized and lauded his good works.
YOUR problem here is you are properly recognized as just a little less forthcoming and honest than the Phelps gang.
That’s gotta hurt. But since you believe as they do? You have to own it.
Ok whines:
“Not one of them has anything good to say about the community work most Christians do,”
Yes, Christians do a lot of good things. But I would say people do a lot of good things, the fact they belong to a particular religion has nothing to do with it since they’d do good regardless. The old saying goes, good people do good things, bad people do bad things but religion allows good people to do bad things and call it good.
MP – so many words, so little understanding.
Enjoy your buddy Phelps – you’re just like him.
GMC it IS the real thing. Trying to disguise it does not change what it really is.
Thanks for proving how clueless you are GMC.
So you say, P-mom. Recite the playbook like a good marionette.
But you understand so little.
Monkey
You are an ass.
How dare you claim to know what we think, about Fred Phelps.
Actually, I feel sorry for the Olympic swimmer, that he has to share his name with these other jerks.
I thought Doctors without Borders is a no religious no political org? And Pmom I would imagine that if a gay family asked the patriot guard to show up at a funeral they would but they were created in response to Phelps protesting military funerals that no one protested when they did gays exclusively nothing stopped the gays from forming their own groups, back then it would true that you didn’t hear much condemnation from the mainstream Christians either. And GMC theirs plenty of right wing groups that want to restrict the 1st amendment form the Parents Television Council to Operation South Wind in Wichita
Correct Tom, Doctors Without Borders is a secular organization. They probably have Christians in the group but being that doctors tend to be more educated there is probably a lot of Atheists amongst their ranks. But if we disagree and don’t say DWB is a Christian organization then we are bigots.
The 14 points of fascism since GMC needs a refresher:
http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html
Maggot
You are such a disgusting liar. I never, ever said anything like what you have claimed:
—-
“Maggotpunk
Posted August 14, 2008 at 6:39 am | Permalink
Yesterday Paul mentioned how much he adores the Phelps because they, like the Mormons, stick to their beliefs. Many Christians here on the Eagle Blog agree with the Phelps when it comes to their position on gays and the power of God to inflict torment upon people for their “sins”. They just don’t have the courage of the Phelps to stand on street corners with signs expressing their faith on how God hates everyone not like them.”
—–
I have said, clearly, that “your right to swing your fist stops at my nose” — a generally accepted principal of “free speech” —
I called YOU, and others, “bigots” for your distasteful jokes about Mitt Romney’s Mormon religion.
You do not get it, do you?
YOU have, by your own posts, defined “hate” and “intolerance” as: “Picking on a group that Maggot supports” —
MAGGOT, YOU HAVE FAR, FAR MORE IN COMMON WITH PHELPS THAN ANY CONSERVATIVE OR ANY REPUBLICAN ON THIS BLOG. JUST LIKE FRED PHELPS, YOU BELIEVE THAT SOME GROUPS OF PEOPLE DO NOT DESERVE ANY RESPECT OR ANY RIGHTS, AT ALL!
I understand fine, thanks, MP.
Enjoy your buddy Phelps.
I understand completely that your use of the term “fascist” is entirely a talking point, a way to demonize those you disagree with, and not in any way an understanding of either fascism nor those you so label.
WOW, Now both sides want to liken the other to Phelps. I suppose I will look at the glass half full. At least both sides can agree that Phelps is an idiot and dangerous.
WOW, all this name calling and throwing around big words is just taking up space. People have been debating religion since the beginning of time. What it all comes down to is treat your fellow man with kindness and respect. Phelps is not any more qualified to judge people than you or I. Freedom of speech is our legal right but we should also be considerate of others feelings. There is a time and a place to express ones opinions but in front of a church where people are grieving for the loss of loved ones is not the place to take a stand. Phelps should go on TV like the rest of the religious evangelists and preach his hatred to all who want to hear it. That way those of us who do not agree with him can turn the channel and not have to listen to him.
Whether either side recognizes it or not you all are giving the Phelps cult just what they crave and need,publicity
“Both seek to eliminate views they hate, and have no tolerance of others who disagree with them.”
That would seem more descriptive of you than me there GMC.
Isn’t you I regularly tangle with over the Fairness Doctrine?
I am for it and you oppose it.
Because doing so favors your beliefs.
I have defended the Phelps’s right to their despicable speech. I want them shouted down not shut up.
GMC. You wish to advocate the responsible use of terms, i.e. “facist” as a talking point. I can applaud that. However, you may do well to advocate the responsible use of contra-lateral terms, i.e. “socialist” also as a talking point.
Phelps is a circus freak. A loud mouth that is only taken seriously by himself. Like other loud mouth circus freaks in this world, it is only a matter of time before he runs out of rope and someone puts him in a hole in the ground.
Correct Anti. But it begs the question: Why are people following him? That same question has been asked regarding Jim Jones, David Koresh (sp?) and others. Until that question is effectively answered, religion must have certain limits. If you don’t like that, don’t blame me, blame idiots like Phelps, Jones and Koresh. In my view, this is an example of how dangerous it is to marginilize the idea of “Seperation of Church and State”
Why are people following him?
——
They are idiots, and few are following him.
Monkey
I will admit one thing: You have proven, with your own stupid interpretations, why a literal reading of the Bible is not a good idea.
Catholics, and many protestant faiths, understand that translations can be tricky, that Biblical Metaphore must be taken into account, and that all passages must be taken in context, and measured against other passages.
Such as this one:
“I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)”
The word “hate” in the passage you love to quote, could be a bit lost in translation. It could mean, “love them less than me”.
In that day and age, what would a parent think of a child that left home to join Jesus, and be a disciple? Would not that family think that they were “hated” by the child, even if that were not the case?
Is it possible that a disciple worried about the reaction of their family, when making such a decision?
Is it more than likely that a parent might have asked, “Why do you hate us so much as to do this”?
Is it not likely that Jesus responded, in His own way, telling such conflicted disciples that they must “love less” their family, when weighed against God?
You seem vaguely familiar with United States law.
Just as the statutes might say something, in rather “clear” terms — we actually have to wait for a court to tell us what those words really mean.
In nearly all cases, I resort to the history and traditions of my Church, and its teaching, on such matters.
And, my faith does NOT preach hate.
Phelps is not preaching Christianity.
There are 10 Commandments, and several other sins and prohibitions, in Christianity.
There are also some things we are SUPPOSED to do.
At best, Phelps is a “cafeteria christian” who has completely screwed up, spitting in the only dish he wishes to serve, while ignoring the meat and potatoes of real Christianity.
There are and always will be defects in society. They do not define society or the majority of large groups. It is best to ignore them and move about your business.
JR –
You do not seek a “Fairness Doctrine” for fairness, JR, and we both know so. You seek to use it as a club to suppress opinions you do not like; in your more honest moments, you even admit same.
The talk radio you so despise (even as you support it by listening – there’s that very funny mental picture again) succeeds because it succeeds in the marketplace. You don’t like what the marketplace provides, so you seek to impose YOUR idea of what “should” be broadcast, and you seek to use gov’t authority to require the promotion of certain political ideas. That’s anthema to the 1st amendment and the very definition of unconstitutional – and, to be frank, is a trait of authoritarian governments, be they labeled “fascist” or “socialist/communist.”
That is why I have always believed the radical left, like some of the radical right, is at heart authoritians. The authoritian nutcase right is at least honest, and admits it seeks authoritarian power for its own benefit. The nutcase left seeks the same, but claims to do so in the name of “the workers” or “the common man” or “the children.” Same result. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Now Pauly boy where have I said people don’t deserve rights. As for respect, no, I don’t believe people deserve any since that’s something they earn. Hence the reason I don’t respect you. But I’m not like you saying some people should have their Constitutional rights removed and be tortured and/or executed.
But you’ve already been exposed as a hypocrite since you have no problem demeaning Muslims and Atheists. Thanks for the entertainment value anyway.
I can’t disagree Anti. But that answer doesn’t guarantee that other Jones’ or Phelps’ won’t cause problems in our society and other societies. Hence the need to stop marginilizing the “Seperation of Church and State”
B.J.
Take some Ritalin. Do you not understand how twisted your last post was?
UnFreekinBelievable!
In my view, this is an example of how dangerous it is to marginilize the idea of “Seperation of Church and State”
——-
The separation should always be defined or else it will be corrupted and abused bastardizing religion. But religion should not be oppressed outside of government.
“There are 10 Commandments, and several other sins and prohibitions, in Christianity.”
Wrong Paulyboy, there are 613 Commandments. The fact that you only pick 10 to follow proves you are a cafeteria Christian. Oh the hypocrisy abounds but I’ll see a glimpse of understanding in your noggin’ about the same day Hank produces that scientific evidence for creationism he claims to have.
The loudest voice wins GMC?
The voice with the biggest sound system and most radio stations prevails?
Not much difference between that and “God says so!”
B.J.
The loudest voice does not win on commercial radio B.J.
The voice that the most advertisers is willing to pay for wins. Which means the voice that the most people wish to hear wins.
But B.J. doesn’t want the folks to hear what he doesn’t like. So bring in the Federales to control what the folks get to hear.
Fascism. Wear it proudly Pal.
Hitler’s “Brown Shirts” were GAY MEN!
Hitler only turned against his “stormtroopers” when he felt they were getting too powerful.
Evil comes in all races, in all colors, and in all sexual preferences.
Stop stereotyping Christians!
You libs don’t get it, do you? You love to call conservatives names, but you do not realize that lumping groups of people together, and refusing to understand the very “diversity” that you claim to support, IS the very BIGOTRY that you claim to oppose!
“Hitler’s “Brown Shirts” were GAY MEN!”
So Hitler managed to enlist thousands of gay men to put on such a dreadful color? I could ask you for proof that all members of the SA were gay but since you are a known liar and ignorant about history I don’t think I’ll bother.
#
GMC70
Posted August 14, 2008 at 10:01 am | Permalink
BTW – the charge of “traitor,” also thrown around, serves a similar purpose. Those who use it little understand what treason really is, and use it only as red meat. Its use to label those who the speaker disagrees with serves notice – to those who think – that the speaker need not be taken seriously.
—————————-
I’m fond of the term, “Cheese-eating-surrender-monkey” myself. It delivers a mammalian lactose imbibing twist to an arm-flailing primate scenario.
Just saying…
(chortles)
You’re not interested in fairness, JR. At least be honest.
This really isn’t hard – either you believe in the 1st amendment, all the time, or you don’t. Compete in the marketplace, both of commerce and ideas. Speak to your heart’s content. Get out your soapbox and harangue the crowd. I’ll always support your right to do so, whether your soapbox is a literal one, or a radio or TV show.
However, when gov’t proposes to dictate what point of view any TV station, radio station, or soapbox must give voice to, even in the cause of “fairness,” I must oppose same. The 1st amendment requires it. It is not for gov’t to determine what is fair, or what points of view must be heard. If that means that those I disagree with may get a loud voice – so be it. Their right is also my right. The alternative is worse.
Be careful what you wish for, JR. You might get it. The answer to speech you disagree with is more speech, not gov’t regulation of speech.
BTW – the fairness doctrine you propose is likely unconstitutional.
B.J.
Do you suppose Pelosi owns stock in XM radio? She supports the fairness doctrine so I think it’s imperative to check her portfolio for another conflict of interest. After all, who benefits the most financially if the Fairness Doctrine passes?
SATELLITE RADIO!!!
And Limbaugh will still be heard, and probably make even more money than he does now.
Anti: agreed, but that begs another question. One that, in my view, has been avoided for the last 6 years. What is the proper definition of the separation of church and state.
Franklin: again I say. If you don’t like consequences, blame the abuser. Example: I hate having to fill out extra information on a Corporate Tax return. But I don’t blame the IRS. I blame Ken Ley.
Dont blame us if we think that Religion needs to be reigned in a little. Blame those who abused their tax-exempt status. Here is a question: Is Westboro Baptist Church going to lose it’s tax-exempt status? Probably not. Why not?
#
LLTVET
Posted August 14, 2008 at 11:35 am | Permalink
Anti: agreed, but that begs another question. One that, in my view, has been avoided for the last 6 years. What is the proper definition of the separation of church and state.
Franklin: again I say. If you don’t like consequences, blame the abuser. Example: I hate having to fill out extra information on a Corporate Tax return. But I don’t blame the IRS. I blame Ken Ley.
Dont blame us if we think that Religion needs to be reigned in a little. Blame those who abused their tax-exempt status. Here is a question: Is Westboro Baptist Church going to lose it’s tax-exempt status? Probably not. Why not?
Probably for similar reasons that moveon.org won’t lose it’s non-profit tax status.
Regular: Now you are going to go there. A 501 (c) (4) organization like Moveon.org actually files a 990 return, whereas churches mostly do not. Why don’t you just re-organize churches so that they are a 501 (c)(4) when they decide to play like Phelps does. That would be fine with me.
LLTVET, a few thoughts, none of which are particularly original, in response to your questions.
First, as to the definition of “separation of church and state”, I offer no clear bright line language, but suggest the following idea: the government (state) should be religiously neutral, neither promoting nor inhibiting the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of the citizens; similarly, the “church” (religion in all forms) should be politically neutral, not seeking to impose any religious thought upon the government. This is not to say that adherents to whatever religious denomination should not personally be prohibited from engagement in the political process. Rather, the engagement should be always and exclusively personal, not denominational, in nature. It is my thought that the state has been doing a better job of keeping the separation in place as opposed to various religious institutions wanting to exert forms of pressure to ensure their particular form of belief becomes a part of the state. The “doctrine” goes both ways, and should be so recognized by the parties.
It is likely that under the language of section 501(c)(3), IRC, and the Treasury Regulations promulgated thereunder, together with other sources of guidance, such as Revenue Rulings, PLRs, TAMs, etc., that Westboro Baptist Church will not lose its tax-exempt status. While the actions of the “members” may strike most as reprehensible, in the least, there has not been any bright line crossed by the same, e.g., no formal endorsement of a particular candidate.
LLTVET, Anti: an interesting discussion, and I commend each of you for undertaking it without demonizing the other. My two cents:
Political action by churches is nothing new. The civil rights movement grew out of churches, for example. Democratic candidates routinely make the trek to black churches (Hillary, in doing so, had one of her less spectacular moments this year, donning the fake accent).
Yet only when conservative churches get involved in political issues do I hear calls for revocation of tax-exempt status. What I find most offensive is not that churches have political stands; that I expect. I’d be shocked if they didn’t. What is offensive is that some wish to use the tax code to punish some churches for the views they disagree with.
Remember what the 1st amendment was written for: not to protect the gov’t from the church (remember, the Constitution is a limitation on the STATE, not on individuals or private entities) but to protect the church from the government.
BTW – LLTVET – does your nic signify a vet of landings from a LLT? If so, you have my deepest admiration and thanks. I can think of little that would be so horribly terrifying than assaulting a defended shore by stepping off such a craft.
LL
Problem is, just because you belong to a “Church” or are the pastor of a church, that does NOT mean that you give up the rights of any citizen.
Is Phelps using tax exempt funds to travel, to print signs, etc?
Even then, Phelps is not trying to tell us who to vote for.
Phelps is evil.
How to deal with Phelps is a hard question.
“Hard cases make bad law”
Alas, GMC. I won’t take that credit. LLT are my initials. I was just a simple tanker turned clerk during the Bill and Hillary show. Took early retirement (SSB) in 1999.
Now, if Westboror Baptist Church were changed into a 501 (c) (4), then I would have no problem with them keeping a “non-profit” status.
Regular, to pile on a bit; not only are all 501(c)(4) organizations required to file the 990s, churches, unlike any other particular 501(c)(3) orgs, are generally not required to file the same. Donations to a 501(c)(3) are deductible for income tax purposes; donations to a (c)(4) are not. I agree with LLTVET, if you are arguing that churches be made (c)(4) orgs, I’m all for it (which would then allow churches, as other (c)(4)s, to be more like moveon.org, should that be desired).
A sign of the times.
VT –
An interesting thought on the meaning of “separation.” Keep in mind a couple of things, IMHO:
1) Separation is doctrine grafted onto the 1st amendment, not part of it. It is a laudable goal, and one I agree with, and it’s a fair shorthand of the 1st amendment’s religion provisions. But gov’t and religion can never be entirely “separate.” We are a religious people, and always have been. We have also been a remarkably religiously tolerant people, for the most part, since most of us understand that ultimately that is where our own bread is buttered. But given the prominent place religion has played in our history, shaping our traditions, our culture, our beliefs, and yes often, our political expression, is is impossible to entirely separate religion and politics. Nor is it necessarily desireable.
2) As noted above (see post to LLTVET), I don’t think the 1st amendment places any limits on what churches do; remember, the Constitution is a limit on gov’t, not in individuals, either as individuals or collectively. Churches become politically identified with a particular party at their peril, I think, and becoming heavily political is a bad thing for churches. But the 1st amendment’s expression provisions don’t stop at the church door; churches, as collective entities, are entitled to have and express political opinions. Members of churches are free to adopt those opinions, or ignore them, and if they find a church too deeply political or the opinions repugnant to them, to leave the church and find another.
Abolition of Slavery was a battle fought in Churches, long before any shots were fired.
Prohibition of Alcoholic Drink was largely the result of Church groups. (Many of them anti-Catholic)
There is NO constitutional restriction which would keep a Church from being involved in LEGISLATIVE or POLICY issues.
Those who want to bring up the “Constitution” on such issues, should, instead, talk about the income tax law, which is far more recent, in our history.
LLTVET –
As one who served, you have my thanks and respect nonetheless. In 20/20 hindsight, it is something I wish I had done. But I am a child of my era, and when I graduated HS, the military was not a good place to be.
Actually Vet the State of Kansas decided that the Phelps have to pay property on their church van since protesting isn’t a religious act but a political one. and one could certainly argue that their a political group and should pay taxes. I think all churches should pay taxes like politcal groups do.
GMC. That sounds reasonable. However, when I hear of issues such as Brownback using the Senate to praise Dobson, that is going too far. I suppose “TECHNICALLY” it is not congress passing a law respective of religion. We all know that the constitution DOES spell that out.
I wish that I could take solice in the fact that members of a church are authorized to disagree with political stances of their church. But, my experience (25 years AS a Christian) showed me that such a stance doesn’t take place. If Christians could impress on me a more free-thinking attitude, then I could be more at ease.
Hi VT, :)
I see your point, but 501(c)(4) orgs, are still exempt from paying taxes on their income. The reality of the situation, that disguised 501(c)(4)’s are used as brokerage firms for political interests. They shuffle monies from one non-profit to the other, cleansing their tax liability to zero.
Shuffle backs between donators, law suits won and interest bearing accounts, convolute the non-profit status so much, the origin of the original donor is lost and most of the time, a small factor into the ever expanding shuffled fun.
So, pardon me while I don’t weep for non-profits like moveon.org. :)
GMC, I agree with both points you make: first, that the state and religion cannot be truly “separate”, given the history and general culture of this country; and second, that the First Amendment does not place limitations upon what churches may do. Rather, the limitation is placed upon the churches by the provisions of the IRC, as the burden to be borne for the benefit of being exempt from income taxation and the deductibility of donations. If a church doesn’t care about the deductibility of donations by donors, surely it may endorse particular candidates as an organization as an example; and, likely, still qualify for tax-exempt status under, e.g., 501(c)(4).
I regret the lack of citation to a SCOTUS decision concerning the issue of the First Amendment and the application of income taxation laws to churches; in the majority opinion, the Justice writing the same noted that the First Amendment did not proscribe income taxation of churches, suggesting that the same would not be violative of the Constitution. Rather, the theory underlying exemption of churches (and, by extension, other charitable, educational, etc., organizations described in 501(c)(3)) was that the same was in recognition that such organizations, by the good works done, relieved a burden upon the government, which would otherwise have the responsibility for the same. Read the case some 35 years ago during my first year in law school; no longer have the notes nor the textbook to which to refer.
I wasn’t aware of that Paine. But I don’t have any reason to doubt it.
Makes sense, TomPaine, that this would be the result as to the van under the “exclusive use” language of the Kansas property tax exemption statutes.
That’s a kind thing to say GMC. Thank You.
You make a very good point AV. Now, in my view, if one were sincerely given to a cause (such as their church) then there doesn’t need to be a tax reason for giving.
My wife and I give money to a little girl and her Family in Columbia (If your interested, it’s Children’s Internation out of Kansas City) Even though My house has long been paid for. Clearly, I have no recourse to itemize since I have no mortgage interest. So the only reason I have to give money is the right reason.
I agree with that sentiment, LLTVET. Donations to a cause should be given to those where one is sincerely committed, without regard to the deductibility thereof.
jdh88pjh
Am I the only one here who is aware of the meaning of 88 in the poster’s nic?
Can only speak for myself but I don’t know. Of course, now I will wonder, think about it, google it… ;-)
The eighth letter of the alphabet is “H.” Eight two times signifies “HH, ” shorthand for the Nazi greeting, “Heil Hitler.” 88 is often found on hate group flyers, in both the greetings and closing comments of letters written by neo-Nazis, and in e-mail addresses.
??????????
Do I need to continue searching, Pre?
Pre – haven’t thought about it. Don’t particularly care – it’s just a nic, I suppose.
ASCII Code ?
(Really reaching for this!)
LL55, re: your 12:27 post-
Really? Didn’t know that. Learn something everyday.
Wow. If that is so, and if that is pjh’s intent, yea, there’s a whole ‘nother level of creepy going on.
Of course, it might just be a birthyear, or something equally innocuous. To paraphrase a famous line, “Sometimes an 88 is just an 88.”
I didn’t know it either, GMC. Finding quite a few different thoughts on the number 88. Where is Pre to tell us who guessed correctly?
The 2008 Beijing Olympics opened on 8/8/08 at 8 p.m.
In Asian culture
Eighty-eight (88) symbolizes fortune and good luck since the word 8 sounds similar to the word F? (?, which implies ??, or wealth, in Mandarin).
The same folks that feign idignation for abortions are the same folks that warehouse their elderly. Leaving them to urinate on themselves and get bed sores whilst they watch the finals for American Idol and pray for their parent’s laying in the bed waiting to die.
Eighty-eight is also:
* the year AD 88, 88 BC, or 1988
* A rock band – The 88 [88 Website]
* a popular ice cream bar manufactured by GB Glace.
* the atomic number of radium
* Anna’s Eighty-eight (Diaethria anna) the “88 butterfly”.
* the number of keys on a piano (36 black and 52 white)
* in Christian Science: the number of the last edition of the Church Manual announced to the Christian Science field in the Christian Science Sentinel in 1910
* A live album by the influential Christian Rock Band The 77s, Eighty-Eight 88 (album)
* in the title of the songs:
o “Rocket 88,” a song first recorded at Sam Phillips’ studio in 1951. Rocket 88 was later the name taken by a U.K. band during the eighties.
o “88 Lines About 44 Women” by the musical group The Nails
o “88″ by the Canadian punk band Sum 41 on their 2004 album, Chuck.
o “88″ by the English Nu-Metal band Apartment 26 on their second album, Music for the Massive (2004) (Atlantic/Wea).
o “88″ by hip-hop act The Cool Kids.
o “88″ by the Japanese electro-pop duo LM.C, or Lovely Mocochang.com on their single, titled “88″.
Olds 88
Olds 88
* the model number of the Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight automobile and the AGM-88 HARM missile
# the caliber of the 88 mm anti-aircraft gun used in World War II, commonly known as 88 (acht-acht in German)
# the number of the French department Vosges
# the designation of two freeways named Interstate 88: one in Illinois and the other in New York
# the town of Eighty Eight, Kentucky, Zip code 42130
# used
* in sexual parlance to describe oral sex performed twice (ate twice)
* in Japanese, often used to mean “a great many” or “countless”; numbers such as eighteen, eighty, eighty thousand, eight-hundred eighty thousand and the like can bear the same connotation.
* in hip hop, in the case of which 88 = HH = hiphop
# in Star Wars, part of the name of the four IG-88 robots
# in Kill Bill, the name of O-Ren Ishii’s Army, the Crazy 88
# the ISBN Group Identifier for books published in Italy and Switzerland
# in miles per hour, the speed the DeLorean automobile must attain in order to travel in time, in the Back to the Future trilogy
Pleefer
Again you show what a judgemental ass you are.
There is not a single person, alive, that has the ability to take care of an Alzheimers patient, all by himself or herself.
That Alzheimers patient might insist on trying to cook for himself or herself, or insist on smoking cigarettes, or filliing his or her own bathtub, or taking long walks and forgetting where they live.
You are a judgemental jerk.
Who can afford to take off work for several years, and stay home with someone 24-7, to prevent the house from burning down and prevent personal injury, to such a patient?
Even if you could afford to stay home, with such a person, when do you sleep?
lindainks55, thanks for clearing that up however I’m still not real sure why Predestined directied that comment towards sme.
I took the red pill. Did you choose the blue?
Are those the only choices?
And, are we all slap happy?
I just returned from a week long “vacation,” and am exhausted. Did everyone else go away and return needing a rest?
Truth hurts donut?
What about the circumstances for the aborter? Does she have less concerns? Maybe the thought of “losing sleep” as well?
You also, are the ones that bolster this b.s government that makes everyone have to work instead of taking care of their loved ones. This faux and criminal government (regardless if it was “ordained by God”) should be where indignation should lie.
And I’ve been judged a kook on here, so turn about’s fair play.
BlueJay
Posted August 14, 2008 at 10:15 am | Permalink
“Maggot, MH, Bluejay, Pmom and even Mary have names for ‘all’ Christians. Not one of them has anything good to say about the community work most Christians do, about how much is given back to the community”
That’s not true and you know it outlander.
———————
Actually, that’s not a quote from me BlueJay.
Ya know, Linda, I don’t know about you . . . Just what is that “55″ all about? Hmmmmmmmmmm?
Wished for speed limit? IQ (short for 155, of course)?
55 = EE, as in Easy Eatery? Elongated Edsel? Eddie Edwards?
Only The Shadow knows . . . . . (The Shadow = 2021, of course)
Ya know, this could become as much fun as finding alternate STFU’s!
STFU =1920621
Oops – my miscount. TS =2019, not 2021.
Damn. Now my whole theory is off. Back to the drawing board . . . .
(peels tongue away from cheek – except for 1920621, of course)
Pall,
“There is not a single person, alive, that has the ability to take care of an Alzheimers patient, all by himself or herself.”
You would (or should) be amazed at the hundreds of people in the Wichita area there are doing just that! Some because they refuse to put their loved ones in the ice cold hands of the nursing home industry, and some because their insurance companies won’t spring for care, not to mention all those who couldn’t afford the exhorbitant premiums in the first place.
Those same neocons who chastize those who do quit working to help their disabled loved ones- limit ALL the options available to these people.
Pleefer agreed that home care by loved ones is better than long term care. I agree. I also know that 24 hour care in home CAN be done- it is extremely demanding.
The neocons will underfund at every chance the ways to rectify this mess. Staffing requirements at nursing homes are ridiculously inadequate to provide GOOD care. I’m not even talking excellent care, I’m talking about the kind that keeps them even stable *WHICH IS CHEAPER*.
I did a research paper on how staffing affects money and outcomes, and it was amazing how the people who always take the hits are those in need.
Jed
I know that it happens.
I also know that the care given, to the patient, is dangerous at best.
The caregiver MUST get a rest, from time to time.
I know cases where an Alzheimers patient HAS wandered off, or started a fire, or left the water running in the tub, and done other costly or life threatening things.
You should not judge.
Gosh, isnt that what libs tell conservatives all the time? (Even when we are not really judging anyone, to begin with?)
Jed, there is no way one person can do it. And do it well. There is shopping to be done, who watches them? What about when you have a dr appt?
What I’m finding, are a lot of these people being left home alone. Some unable to even get out of bed- their families leave them in the house all alone while they go to work or to run errands.
They’re in crisis mode, caregivers are taxed to the max.
And remember, fleets laughed at me for making less than $9 an hour for being a home health worker.
Pmom until you stop posting as if all neocons are the devil incarnate then I will just scroll over your posts. You used to have something constructive to say and post that were interesting. No longer. This ‘we are good’ and ‘you are bad’ attitude of yours is so wrong that you have lost all credibility.
Its true Grm like it or not. Its not the dems who are voting against paying a decent wage to workers or making those programs available to people in need.
making less than $9 an hour for being a home health worker.
——
If you can’t get a better wage than that as a home health worker, something is wrong with YOU.
People at Target make more than that and they don’t have skills.
I am not judging those who find themselves unable to afford a long term care facility.
I am simply pointing out the obvious: facility care is often safer for the patient and everyone else involved.
You should not judge those who plan in advance, and buy appropriate LTC insurance or make other arrangements.
http://www.pascenter.org/state_based_stats/phca_wages.php?title=Wages%20for%20Personal%20and%20Home%20Care%20Aides&state=kansas
I’m glad you think you’re the expert on the wages of home healthcare workers. Idiot.
There are the stats. It has nothing to do with me, but rather what the state and the agencies are paying out.
Find a different job or DEAL with it and quit whining! The world owes you nothing.
I think whoever said that Anti is a troll, probably a phelps clan member- is probably right.
The phelps’ have posted on here before, so I wouldn’t be surprised.
P.M., you said HEALTHCARE not HOME care (housekeeper).
Who needs a nursing home?
They shoot horses don’t they?
I can see a house keeper making that wage.
F*tard, we’re discussing caring for the elderly and disabled. If you don’t know what the f you’re talking about- then shut up. Which you obviously do NOT.
These are very real issues for very real people. I do what I do very well. I make a loving difference in people’s lives. You can’t buy that satisfaction. You, on the other hand, are a total POS.
ANTI- housekeepers make more than home healthcare workers make!
Political_mama
Posted August 14, 2008 at 2:40 pm | Permalink
I think whoever said that Anti is a troll, probably a phelps clan member- is probably right.
The phelps’ have posted on here before, so I wouldn’t be surprised.
——-
You are wrong. Sorry if you are a glorified house keeper and not a health care provider like you lead on. The truth hurts sometimes.
There you go Grm, the fine folks of your side.
You are the one complaining about your pay. I suggest taking some initiative and doing something about it.
You’re an idiot. I showed you the pay scale for people who do my work, which is more than housekeeping. I’m also an EMT, did you forget that as well?
Sadly my body can’t do that work as a job anymore.
Anti -
What point is this on this thread? Why is this even brought up? Let it go.
But let this go. As much as I may disagree with P-mom, as over-the-top as she may be at times, she deserves respect for what she does, no matter what the pay. This does not reflect well on you.
Let it go. Instead, ponder on the significance of Linda’s 55 numerology – or perhaps Chas’s 1920621.
When (if) I grow up I want to be 55 and know everyone is thinking of (maybe even celebrating!) me on all county roads. Could we have some color on those signs celebrating me??
GMC, I respect what she does very much. However, if she is so talented and the money is her issue, she is stupid for not moving on. If she is in it for the love of the work, great, don’t bitch about the pay.
P.S. Linda is a member of the Free Masons Chapter #55, also a member of the Skull and Bones Society.
Stop The Fake Unitarian
inks55, is in reference to the number of jail house tattoos she has. ;)
Good workers should not be pushed out of the field because the wages are so poor. The work is extremely important. And you might be surprised what I’m up to to make changes about this.
I’ve even got republican support. We’ll see if they’re only paying lip service or not.
My 4th great grandfather was a Mason. Then his son, my third great grandfather became a Baptist Minister and that was the end of that masonic legacy. :D
P.M., I made no suggestion that it wasn’t a crappy wage.
P_Mom,
Is your wage (none of my business) tied to how much your employer is charging?
Have you signed a non-compete? Could you strike out on your own and cut out the middle man?
Just sayin… you know…
Yes I have a non-compete. If I want out of it I’d have to pay 7k.
The problem is that when people need care, they often need it NOW, they don’t have time to research, so they go to the agencies. We are at the mercy of the agency.
My salary is exactly half of what my clients pay.
Now what the state pays in- or insurance- I don’t know. That’s what my private pay client shells out.
Sol- email?
SolDevVB@GMail.com
Then that really ins’t much of a margin if your co gives you bennies and PTO. That sucks.
You could have went to Florida PMom and taken care of WSClark’s father. He claimed it was going to cost him $2500.00/month. Clark could have paid you three fourths of that and you still would have came out ahead of your current wage.
Then again, the truth may be a different story.
I dated a nurse who traveled to Dallas/Fort Worth area on Weekends to work a 4 day week. Friday through Monday. I asked her why she did that and she said, it paid three times a much as they were offering in Oklahoma and for less hours.
She was an R.N., but even the L.V.N’s traveled down there to get a better wage. I’m sure the whole health care job sector pays more there than other parts of the southwest or central U.S.
Mary has told me that if I did this in wichita, I’d make more there too.
You might have to move P_Mom. Rates are much higher up here too.
It really should’nt matter. Are workers or elderly more important elsewhere?
Financial situations are different elsewhere. Better insurance, better income, etc. I understand your point, but the reality is different.
I thought she was talking about Kansas’ pay scale. That’s what is wrong with this country, the people that deserve the good pay get shafted, while some dumbass, thieving attorney rapes us and destroy’s our system.
The reality is, we’re a disposable society and old folks and babies are apparently not exempt from disposable status.
Phelps would have had the same reception in other places. Google says that in former British colonies like New Zealand and Austalia, one cannot intimidate, degrade, incite violence against any identifiable person or group of persons by reason of race, gender, sexual preferences, socio-economic status or polictical persuasions etc. etc. In the 1950’s some
Texas pastor called for the arrest and burning at the stake of all Wiaccans and could not be prosecuted in the US where free speech seems to be almost limitless vs. other places. Apparently the base difference is that while America’s Constituion guarantees Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness, the Canadian equivalent offers Law, Order and Good Governance a big difference. Come to think of it isn’t their national “symbol” a cop/Mountie? Seems that L&O plank may have avoided any Indian wars in their westward expanions
No sursum, it’s a maple leaf.
Or maybe a beaver, eh?
P-Mom
Yes, going it alone with a disabled adult is difficult, but not impossible. I know, I spent 14yrs doing it. And yes, you’re in crisis mode a lot. While dementia wasn’t a problem, we had plenty of others.
We tried an agency, and got some of the most incompetent workers and managers imaginable! One manager, when she couldn’t bully some worker into giving up her day off, would have the office calls forwarded to our house and simply attempt to run the agency in our living room and do her work at the same time. Talk about a disaster! But that was only one of their many didasters. We gave up on agencies at that point.
We did have regular visits from some amazing home heath nurses from St Joe who were real lifesavers, and a couple of damned good doctors they consulted with! They made home care possible for us.
Jed, email me. o_serenity_now@yahoo.com
I know exactly what you are talking about, which is why I’m trying to elevate the level of care.
I like
8675309
pmom
I know that what you do is very important.
I too think it is a mistake for anyone to look down on honest work, of any type.
My suggestion?
Find a family with a functioning elderly person expected to live for awhile longer.
Offer to work for $9.00 an hour, plus benefits, if they will pay off your “non compete” contract.
You are saving them a chunk of money, should the patient live very long at all.
The non compete “pay off” should be in loan terms, with YOU responsible for reimbursment, to the family, if you quit before the death of the client/patient or 3 years, whichever comes first.
Then, you are FREE!
My opinion:
It’s simple. If you’re not making what you think you’re worth, you have these choices:
- Find someone who will pay you what you think you’re worth.
- Increase your training/education to boost your skill level and marketability.
- Do nothing.
- Whine and complain and do nothing. (the ongoing current choice by this board poster)
Note:
I, personally, have tried all four of those alternatives. #4 is the least productive.
Golfnuts,
“I, personally, have tried all four of those alternatives. #4 is the least productive.”
If that’s the case, why do you constantly show up here with your wingnut rants? I’d think you might find something more productive to do. There are plenty of volunteer opportunities that actually do some good for people.
http://www.jimmarrs.com/
Scroll to article dated: Mrch 14, 2008
Chas
Posted August 15, 2008 at 3:21 am | Permalink
http://www.jimmarrs.com/
Scroll to article dated: Mrch 14, 2008
—–
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Chas –
please don’t tell me you take ANYTHING on this site remotely seriously?!