It’s encouraging that Hawker Beechcraft Corp. and Machinists union leaders have agreed on new contract terms. Here is hoping that union members also agree when they vote Thursday. The strike is in its fourth week, and a long work stoppage isn’t in the best interest of anyone — Hawker Beechcraft, its employees or the community.
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81 Comments
“and a long work stoppage isn’t in the best interest of anyone — Hawker Beechcraft, its employees or the community.”
Oh I very much disagree. They had not had a strike in 24 years. That had caused management to grow most abusive. I guess those paper pushing desk jockeys did not much enjoy trying to do REAL work.
They’ve rolled over. The union has won.
B.J.
“management to grow most abusive”
perhaps you could cite some example of this “abuse”?
B.J.
How long you been gone from Beechcraft now Jay, about 10 years now?
NOT that long Heckler.
Clearly my experience was commonplace. 90% voted for the strike.
B.J.
“90% voted for the strike.”
Correction, 90% of the union members who showed up to vote. The vast majority of the union people I work with thought the first offer was a good one.
Lifes really not that bad around here these days.
Three weeks of the first strike in 24 years make you a liar desk jockey.
I wonder if I knew you. I did not much associate with the office drones.
“The vast majority of the union people I work with”
I thought you shared with us that you work at Boeing there Heckler.
Were you being dishonest then or now?
At least at HB or Raytheon or whatever they call it this week, interaction between union people and office folk was a minimum.
B.J.
Didnt take you long to call me a liar now did it? You and Maggott and Monkey”boy” must all be of the same mother.
Perhaps you could cite some of the “abuse” these poor down trodden folks have been suffering lately?
… and B.J. I prefer the term Keyboard Cowboy to Desk Jokey. The Desk Jockey term implies sedentary laziness. I’m anything but that. And no, I’ve never said I work at Boeing, perhaps that I know a few people working there, but then If you work in the airplane mines long enough you end up knowing somebody everywhere.
And again you refer to me as a liar. Gotta tear others down to build yourself up?
There’s a good chance we crossed paths in the late nineties before my office moved farther away from production machine shop.
Congratulations to the Machinist Union for taking the gutsy stance and winning.
Ever since Reagan stabbed labor in the back (he was a former actors’ union Pres), wages have gone down in real terms. Wages went down 1,000 dollars a year (on average) in the first term of WorstPresidentEver alone.
Here’s a cheer for one small step in the right direction.
And just in time for labor day.
So Heckler is part of the parasitical management class.
Yeah, why is that not surprising?
Anyone know the exact terms of the new contract vs what was originally proposed?
Did the new contract offset the loss of 4 weeks of pay?
How many Beechcraft customer orders went to other companies?
What’s the current ROI and Net Income for Beechcraft? How low is that stock price getting? Is Beechcraft now a better target for acquisition?
Do Unions even consider the profitability of the company or the customers ability to switch to a competitor or the impact of an acquisition or possibility of a shutdown if you bleed the company dry of all profits?
Oh, and did the cost of the Union dues get paid for with an increase in pay and benefits that offset the cost of the dues?
Or are the Union dues just donations to Obama’s campaign?
Just wondering.
Capn
You always read your own thoughts into other folks’ words and twist them to suit your biases.
Who said I was a manager?
How’s that job security working out for the Beechcraft Union? Any cut backs in the last 5 years? 10?
CapnAmerica
Posted August 26, 2008 at 7:58 am | Permalink
So Heckler is part of the parasitical management class.
Yeah, why is that not surprising?
============================================================
And Capn is from the Class of Envy.
That pay increase they got will at least cover the increased cost of union dues. What’s it gonna be now $80 or $100 bucks a month?
“Production machine shop” is rather vague Heckler.
What plant? Near what departments?
Hey my mom worked in the offices. I didn’t dislike the non union folk so much as I felt sorry for them.
They froze the insurance premiums, thus making the pay increase real.
The attack on 2 job codes, one of them that my Dad used to work in, was stopped. The attempt to marginalize newer workers was killed and retired workers got a pension increase.
TOLD ya.
B.J.
Plant 1. Used to work in an office on the mezzanine north of the new paint line and the newer section of the N.C. machines where the King Air assy. line used to be.
Wow JR is pretty smug about the Union while he sits at home without a job.
Won’t the Union let you join JR?
Max asks, “Do Unions even consider the profitability of the company or the customers ability to switch to a competitor or the impact of an acquisition or possibility of a shutdown if you bleed the company dry of all profits?”
Do CEO’s even consider the profitability of the company when they demand and get billion dollar contracts? Does the Board of Directors consider the profitability of the company when they engage in crony-capitalism and insider trading for their own gain?
Cf. George W. Bush at Harkin Energy . . .
Listen to the ‘Pukes–when the workers who produce the wealth simply want to keep part of what they created, it’s “class envy.”
“I tell people, ‘to hell with charity–you only get what you’re strong enough to get.’” Saul Alinsky
Max, JR chose to be self-employed.
I thought you people liked entreprenures (sp).
What’s your field? I betting “sales”–they’re always the most arrogant.
I forgot to finish that thought–sales are always the most arrogant with the least reason to be.
So, how do you make your 6 figure pay Capn’A?
“Max, JR chose to be self-employed.
I thought you people liked entreprenures (sp).
What’s your field? I betting “sales”–they’re always the most arrogant”
__________________________________________
Professional Ranter??
My sister used to work at Raytheon, now Hawker Beechcraft. Now she works at Bombardier which was Lear Jet.
The commercial Division of Boeing is now called Spirit Aerosystems.
My Uncle was a long time employee of Beech, before they changed their name.
Had another Uncle that was a 40 year employee of Boeing.
The point is, all Aircraft companies have changed management and policies. They have had different names.
The old paradigm of “if we build it, someone will buy it” days are long gone.
Companies are now owned and under the guidance of investment groups and have a paradigm of profit and loss versus productivity. The largest expense to an employer are people. The easiest function of management to fix are people, they can be fired, “layed off”, temporarily suspended and etc to adjust the profit/loss margins.
This isn’t your “daddy’s world” any more. This is the cold, stark reality of modern investment groups which have the bulk of the funds and they dictate direction with companies.
The parent company of Hawker Beechcraft is Goldman-Sachs. I’m quite sure they will not be amused if the strike goes on much longer. Don’t test the giant.
Run away Capn’A, run away…
I married money, Anti.
Just like Hank Price and John McCain.
CapnAmerica
Posted August 26, 2008 at 9:16 am | Permalink
I married money, Anti.
——-
Does your wife have a sister?
Many unioners interviewed on the news said healthcare benefits were the biggest part thing for them.
Here are the amounts from the original contract they started the strike over:
1/1/2008 – 12/31/2008:
Employee Only = $53.91 (+4.73 dental, +1.77 vision)
Employee+1 = $93.01 (+10.38 dental, +1.77 vision)
Employee and Dependents = $142.63 (+13.08 dental, +1.77 vision)
1/1/2009 – 12/31/2009:
Employee Only = $$56.81 (+5.27 dental, +1.91 vision)
Employee+1 = $97.77 (+11.55 dental, +1.91 vision)
Employee and Dependents = $151.51 (+14.55 dental, +1.91 vision)
About $9 per month increase for family coverage times 12 months is $108 per year…..
“B.J.
Didnt take you long to call me a liar now did it? You and Maggott and Monkey”boy” must all be of the same mother.”
Heckler,
Perhaps your suspicion is accurate, but I suspect of different fathers.
brian_nuevo
Posted August 26, 2008 at 9:44 am | Permalink
Many unioners interviewed on the news said healthcare benefits were the biggest part thing for them.
Here are the amounts from the original contract they started the strike over:
1/1/2008 – 12/31/2008:
Employee Only = $53.91 (+4.73 dental, +1.77 vision)
Employee+1 = $93.01 (+10.38 dental, +1.77 vision)
Employee and Dependents = $142.63 (+13.08 dental, +1.77 vision)
1/1/2009 – 12/31/2009:
Employee Only = $$56.81 (+5.27 dental, +1.91 vision)
Employee+1 = $97.77 (+11.55 dental, +1.91 vision)
Employee and Dependents = $151.51 (+14.55 dental, +1.91 vision)
About $9 per month increase for family coverage times 12 months is $108 per year…..
——————————————————————
The Union called a strike over a $9/month health coverage increase?
Lost 4 weeks of pay over $108/yr? The Company pays for roughly 80% of the healthcare cost and that’s not enough?
Thank God there’s a Union!
The posters here will say it was over things other than health insurance.
If you watch the news or read the paper, the average unioner who is interviewed says the most important thing for them to strike about was insurance.
Things that make ya go hmmmmm..
$9 a month increase in health care costs.
$40 a month increase in union dues.
Average union wage based on the payscale effective 8/4/2008 in the original contract: $21.06
Times 160 hours missed = $3,369.60 average lost wages due to strike.
Really the only ones that saw any real benefit from the strike were the union leaders.
The union laborers and supporters are going to see this strike and new contract as a great deal and reaffirm their belief in the power of the union (and consequently fork out their union dues happily for another 5 years). The main though will be “look what we got because of the union, we could never have gotten that without it.” Of course, this is what the union bosses wanted by striking.
Do you really think the contract offered could not have been reached by the union negotiators before the strike if they had wanted to?
“main though” = “main thought”
God bless those unionites of Local Lodge 733 and their cerebrally-challenged economics.
They spent 4 weeks of wages for a pittance of corporate concession.
Smart. Real smart.
Next up: they’ll trade a week of vacation for a free lunch!
Note – there’s a reason why those folks aren’t running the company. *wink*
Yeah….The things you hear and the things you see on the news? Believe everything you see or hear? Thats smart.
Yes, the increase in Health Insurance premiums over the first year were only $9. Set to double or triple over the period of the contract, not talking about the first year here.
And…No it’s not all about pay, or all about Insurance, there is also, working over time, no, not a big deal they have to work overtime, but, what hours of overtime used to be and then the the company changing them to where those overtime hours would no longer be overtime they would be regular pay, even though, they were really working “overtime”. Also, sick leave for new employees, going down to I believe 5 days. Thats hard if you have kids, let alone look out for those pesky flu’s or cold’s that we humans often get.
I have said it before, I will say it again, They wouldn’t have striked if they didn’t believe in fighting for what they wanted, and most nay-sayers have no clue what they are talking about. Your not on strike. Why do you care? Probally unfortunately a lot like me and you are a Pessimist, wanting something to alway gripe about.
My experience you ask? Well, my mother, my sister, my brother, my brother-in-law, my uncle, and many friends work there, that is when they are not on strike.
Thank you.
Unfortunately, I kind of feel like the union laborers were taken advantage of by the union leaders. They were told B.S. like “your 4% raise is going to be eaten up by the 6% increase in insurance costs”.
Things like that were used to sell the strike to the union laborers, and while factually true, are quite misleading. And I think the vote to strike would have been different if the union laborers actually understood that economics and numbers they were being told by the union leadership.
“iamru75
Posted August 26, 2008 at 1:07 pm | Permalink
Yeah….The things you hear and the things you see on the news? Believe everything you see or hear? Thats smart.
Yes, the increase in Health Insurance premiums over the first year were only $9. Set to double or triple over the period of the contract, not talking about the first year here.
And…No it’s not all about pay, or all about Insurance….”
Like I said at 12:47 pm
“The posters here will say it was over things other than health insurance.
If you watch the news or read the paper, the average unioner who is interviewed says the most important thing for them to strike about was insurance”
iamru75,
So you can read for yourself what the new contract says rather than listening to me or others:
http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/2008_negotiations/files/2008_proposed_settlement_agreement_all_articles.pdf
Brian_nuevo,
Why on earth would I need to click on your link to see the contract when as described in my post, my brother, my mother, my brother-in-law, my sister, uncle, and many other friends work there? Don’t you think I have seen the contract?
Again, unless you work their, why do you care if they choose to strike for more benefits? For that matter, even if you do work there, and voted yes to the contract, why do you care, because you could still work there and cross the lines. As with your other posts in other comment sections, you keep mentioning this $9 dollars but again only in the first year. If they would have froze the premiums in the first contract this wouldn’t have been an issue that we would be discussing would it? Guess they could do it after all since it will be in the new contract.
“They spent 4 weeks of wages for a pittance of corporate concession.”
Like pensions.
“Brian_nuevo,
Why on earth would I need to click on your link to see the contract when as described in my post, my brother, my mother, my brother-in-law, my sister, uncle, and many other friends work there? Don’t you think I have seen the contract?”
Based on your comments you did not seem to be very familiar with the Facts in it.
Interesting Contract Brian:
4% annual raises each of the next 3 years.
Plus, a Cost of Living Adjustment each year.
11 Paid Holidays Each Year.
Vacation of 2 weeks/yr after 1 year (Not very generous actually).
Earned Time Off (sick time) starting at 5 days/yr.
Oh and the Insurance Question:
Employees will pay a whopping 15% of the cost of the premiums. The Company pays 85%!!!!
Yeah that’s terrible. Something to strike over for sure.
Let’s see Max’s contract and we can all tut-tut over what a cush set-up he’s got.
CapnAmerica
Posted August 26, 2008 at 3:08 pm | Permalink
Let’s see Max’s contract and we can all tut-tut over what a cush set-up he’s got.
——-
Let’s see your contract Capn’ “Money Bags”
6 figures sounds cush to me Capn’A
The fact of the matter is that since the mid-80’s, workers have doubled their productivity by working harder and smarter.
The average American works an extra MONTH more than he or she would have in 1970.
Wages have stayed perfectly flat or gone down for the entire period, meaning that all that newly created wealth went right into the paychecks of top management (i.e., people who are already rich).
This is a great time to be rich in America. It hasn’t been better than 1929 in terms of percentage of wealth going to the very richest.
For the rest of us, not so much.
Anti–
We regret to inform you that CapnAmerica has placed you on his “ignore” list.
Thank you,
The Management
CapnAmerica
Posted August 26, 2008 at 3:14 pm | Permalink
Anti–
We regret to inform you that CapnAmerica has placed you on his “ignore” list.
Thank you,
The Management
——-
8/26/08 Capn’A doesn’t play well with others. He hates being called out as a hypocrite…….
Dr. ANTI
Capn,
I would certainly agree with the statements about the majority of increases going to the rich.
However, it is driven by joe worker himself.
Today, most workers have 401k’s. The workers want the most return from those investments, so they move their money around to the funds with the highest returns. Investment managers buy and sell stocks daily to keep the average quarterly fund returns high. CEO’s manage corporate earnings and financials to drive share prices so investement fund managers will invest in their stocks. Boards of Directors elect CEO’s that have a record of, or promise to, drive stock prices higher – and those Boards pay the CEO’s well to do that.
If joe worker does not get enough return on his 401k fund, he moves his money to a different fund, that fund loses assets, that fund manager sells the shares of the companies whose share prices do not rise, and the Boards of the companies whose share prices did not rise fire those CEOs.
CEOs like to be employed. To keep share price high, they have to keep investors happy. Investors like net income and cash. Net income is driven by lowering expenses (like wages, insurance, vacation days, etc) and selling more (already selling as many as they can, and most CEOs don’t want to spend more on selling expenses so they target cutting expenses). Cash flow is driven by too many things (so I won’t ramble on that).
So by driving investment funds to push companies to make corporate decisions based on the affect on stock price even though those decisions may hurt workers (e.g. cutting wages and benefits) the workers are hurting themselves.
“The fact of the matter is that since the mid-80’s, workers have doubled their productivity by working harder and smarter.”
Not at HBC.
Fact: it takes more than 50% MORE labor hours today to build a Bonanza than it did in 1988. Understandably, there are changes in FAA requirements that result in increased assembly time, and product enhancements also have a similar effect.
I can’t comment with data on other product lines, but this fact remains: productivity has gone down significantly over the past 20 years on just this one product.
$9/month increase in pension payments. Let’s see…
If you’re making $50k annualized (a reasonable number), and you give up 4 weeks of pay – that’s about $4000. At $9/month, that’s 444 months.
37 years to break-even. And THAT assumes zero inflation. In real dollars, it’s probably 50 years. I restate my earlier comments about unionites and economics.
Oh wait, there’s that additional $9/mo in healthcare. But that’s only for the next 36 months.
So… let’s call it 48 years to break-even.
Gotta hand it to those union leaders…they’re brilliant.
Do I hear jealousy?
You hear laughter.
Now you can see why KSGolf is too dumb to see the value of unions.
Workers lost 4000 during the strike (assuming they didn’t pick up any dinero anywhere else).
In return they got a four percent raise on top of COLA. Assuming his 50K per annum wage, that’s 2K a year just for the 4 percent raise. They lost 4K and negotiated for 6K. Not only that, the COLA if it matches inflation will be another 3-5 percent on top.
They came out way ahead.
These higher wages will circulate through the local economy, instead of getting plowed into more gasoline for some CEO’s motor yacht.
We owe the Machinists a big thank you. This is the economic plan that really works–trickle UP and OUT economics.
“They came out way ahead.”
Wishful thinking.
They were already getting the 4% and COLA. They didn’t need to strike for that. Try to think of matching up costs and benefits. :)
Already told ya what my employees get Capn. Pretty cushy package and there’s no Union!
Much better package then Beechcraft, in fact.
If either side gets too greedy that’s a problem – a lose/lose situation in the long-run.
If both sides work together, then there’s no reason for a Union to get in the way.
What’s that Union membership rate down to now, 10%, 9%? Somewhere in there.
I’d sure hate to give up 3 – 5% of my pay to some Union that has become as corrupt as Managment was supposed to be. In that situation, the employee has two bosses both as bad as each other, the Company and the Union. Rah Rah Union!
And to see 3 – 5% of my pay not spent on labor/managment negotiations for my benefit, but for donations to a political party not of my choice, that would be some harsh BS. Rah Rah Union!
What’s that Union done for the American Auto Industry? Got too greedy and bankrupt it! Bye Bye Jobs. Rah Rah Union!
Say JR, you never answered!
Won’t the Union let you join them?
Or is it too easy to sit on your tail and blog all day and live off the public dole?
The only posters to this forum who are the public dole are on YOUR side of politics Maxine.
I was in the Union from the day I hired in until after I quit the factory.
There is more to this victory then just the benefits won. There were no take aways.
Management inside will know that. They are gonna walk on eggshells around the workers for a good while. Scabs have been found out. They’ll find it lonelier on breaks, at lunch,
and when they need someone to get their back.
Figuratively, that long badly functioning company has been rapped on the nose. That will slow them crossing their work force in the near and distant future.
Too bad cons. Ya lost.
TOLD ya!
“Do I hear jealousy?”
Yeah there’s an element of that Rox.
There’s also a good amount of noise from folks who are just assholes by nature.
Agreed JR…………score another victory for a UNION!
I know where you worked Heckler.
What’d they do? Move you to crystal palace?
You probably were not there to see how things changed in many areas of plant 1 starting about 2002.
ANY reasonable person would have agreed it was wrong. Ya don’t hire a person to be skilled in one job, compensate them ONLY for that job, and than expect them to perform a half dozen other jobs. You don’t then demand that they do this for weeks at a time without down time. Even if they will do it willingly. Quality suffers. People get hurt.
I don’t know about you? I want my airplanes built by people who know what they are doing and are not pushed to the point of collapse.
So JR, you solved the worlds problems at that factory and claim a victory for the Union, now tell me, have you been able to obtain and pay (with your own funds) for health insurance for your own kid?
$9 victory for the Union!
B F D
Max,
I’ll give you high odds that Junior will choose not to answer that question.
Golfnut,
Ya think?
LOL!
V I C T O R Y for the Union though. The Union got rid of JR!
(He did such good work for the Union though, they wanted to keep him on, but somehow, for some strange reason, they didn’t.)
Ya know?
There are an awful lot of otherwise good folks working in those union jobs that against their better interests vote for Republicans.
I hope they read some of the con posts here.
I hope the cons will keep giving them good reads about just how the Republican party regards them. Thanks cons!
BJ, I hope they read these posts too.
I hope you are not lying when you say your son reads this blog too.
All will be wondering why you didn’t answer the questions I asked of you.
KSGolfnut
Posted August 26, 2008 at 6:51 pm | Permalink
Max,
I’ll give you high odds that Junior will choose not to answer that question.
===============================================================
Ya got that one right.
It would be a fun little exercise to calculate the NPV of the strike:
Costs:
- 4 weeks of income at current value (assume $50k annualized).
- Reduced goodwill between the two parties (intangible).
Benefits:
- $7/mo (future value starting in 20 years, assuming the average striker is 45 yrs old).
- $9/mo annuity for 3 years.
- Removal of reduced time off for new employees (no impact to current employees).
- Removal of job code changes (intangible).
IRR = 0 IF the employee lives to be 109.
So…when that employee has his 110th birthday, HOT DAMN, he made money.
B.J.
“What’d they do? Move you to crystal palace?”
Nope just another part of Plant 1.
“Ya don’t hire a person to be skilled in one job, compensate them ONLY for that job, and than expect them to perform a half dozen other jobs”
You mean like pay them to run an N/C mill and then expect them to deburr parts or run a drill press while the N/C machine is running. Rather than sit on their but? Oh the horror.
I’ll be the first to admit that management did some stupid things around there, but expecting someone to do something productive while an automated machine is running wasn’t one of them.
Max is exactly right.
Union membership is down to single digits. And, hey, so is wage growth.
Nope, no correlation there. (sarcasm)
I don’t know the specifics of this particular strike, but neither does GoofNuts.
I just know then when unions were strong, wages were up and CEO pay was reasonable. Now that Reagan and the CONs have busted unions for thirty years, wages are down and CEO pay is sky high.
Just like it was BEFORE unions in the roaring ’20’s.
Yup, CapnAmerica would take us back to the roaring 20’s.
I’ll go there.
Get rid of big Government expenditures and controls, and we all be fine, if you work to support yourselves.
“CapnAmerica
Posted August 26, 2008 at 10:01 pm | Permalink
…Union membership is down to single digits. And, hey, so is wage growth.
Nope, no correlation there. (sarcasm)….
I just know then when unions were strong, wages were up and CEO pay was reasonable. Now that Reagan and the CONs have busted unions for thirty years, wages are down and CEO pay is sky high.
Just like it was BEFORE unions in the roaring ’20’s.”
Those are spurious correlations at best.
No direct causality can be proven between the decline in unions and the increase in CEO pay and ‘decrease’ in worker wages.
Just because they appear to happen proportionally at the same time does not mean one caused the other.
simply it ()-: