Happy July Fourth to all you bloggers. Hope you have a good day celebrating our country and its freedoms. If you have a moment, you might read the Declaration of Independence, which is printed on today’s Opinion pages. Also check out the video of Wichitans reading excerpts from the declaration.
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And let us not forget that it is theses truths that is being defended and not our lands and wealth.
These principles and not our cars and choices of music that are being assaulted in this war of ideology.
Many in 1776 saw what was worth the fight and stood against those wishing us not to have them.
In 2008 we having have the dream fulfilled can take these as forever and not being able to be lost.
But no power of earth can take them from us only we can forsake them. We the individuals can not assume that others will stand in defense of these truths and principles while we go about enjoying them.
No one in Washington D.C. can be trusted alone to stand for them, for the load is heavy in the stance.
It is yours to bear and watch over, to precious to entrust its well-being to others to hold.
Rendition of the Pledge of Allegiance as recorded by Red Skelton
I — Me; an individual; a committee of one.
PLEDGE — Dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self-pity.
ALLEGIANCE — My love and my devotion.
TO THE FLAG — Our standard; Old Glory; a symbol of Freedom; wherever she waves there is respect, because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody’s job.
UNITED — That means that we have all come together.
STATES — Individual communities that have united into forty-eight great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose. All divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that is love for country.
AND TO THE REPUBLIC — Republic — a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people; and it’s from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.
FOR WHICH IT STANDS
ONE NATION — One Nation so blessed by God..
[ "Under God" was added in 1954 ]
INDIVISIBLE — Incapable of being divided.
WITH LIBERTY — Which is Freedom; the right of power to live one’s own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.
AND JUSTICE — The principle, or qualities, of dealing fairly with others.
FOR ALL — For All, which means, boys and girls, it’s as much your country as it is mine.
And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, Under God indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
————————-
Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance: Under God. Wouldn’t it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer, and that would be eliminated from schools, too?
– Red Skelton
—————————–
Yes Mr. Skelton, it is a pity we have people in our country that want to rid all references to God.
It’s a pity that there are people in our country who never heard of Jimmy Cagney and his “Grand Old Flag” rendition. Even sadder that they can’t clap their hands to the beat and shed a tear at the end of the song because of pride in their country.
It’s a pity that there are many who have forgotten the tragic events of 911 and so many that died just living their lives as free Americans or guests of America.
It’s a pity that there are those who do not honor our military, who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
It is however, with great honor and pride I find organizations like the Patriots who ride motorcycles to escort our fallen.
To quote the phrase of the Patriot Guard Website honoring the military:
To those of you who are currently serving and fighting for the freedoms of others, at home and abroad, please know that we are backing you. We honor and support you with every mission we carry out, and we are praying for a safe return home for all.
God Bless the President
God Bless all today regardless of belief
God Bless the United States
Grand Old Flag” performed by James Cagney, written by George Cohen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAAptRG5S4Q
Yankee Doodle Dandy performed by James Cagney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVg6zueS1o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiXXf0ZqRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDKfw8nysLA
It would be better if references to devotion and justice were to doing the right thing at all times rather than worship of a symbol.
I think America is very divided right now in many different ways.
Presenting this in a community where 70% of the people think the Declaration and Constitution are based on the Ten Commandments is at least a learning opportunity. Perhaps $4 a gallon milk and gas creates a teachable moment of the essential ideas of America’s constitutional government for our theocratic “patriots.”
Hahahaha – haha – hahahahah – who am I fooling?!?!?!
Happy Fourth of July.
“It’s time to celebrate our independence, and recognize our interdependence.”
~ Swami Beyondanonda
…………. and the reality is………
Born in the USA – Bruce Springsteen
Born down in a dead man’s town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that’s been beat too much
‘Til you spend half your life just covering up
[chorus:]
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I got in a little hometown jam
And so they put a rifle in my hands
Sent me off to Vietnam
To go and kill the yellow man
[chorus]
Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says “Son if it was up to me”
I go down to see the V.A. man
He said “Son don’t you understand”
[chorus]
I had a buddy at Khe Sahn
Fighting off the Viet Cong
They’re still there, he’s all gone
He had a little girl in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms
Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I’m ten years down the road
Nowhere to run, ain’t got nowhere to go
I’m a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I’m a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPudiBR15mk
When I read the Declaration of Independence this morning I was amazed that we’ve come almost full circle to the same abuses, repeated injuries and usurpations, despotism of government our founders recognized as reason to become independent from the rule of England.
If you read the list of facts submitted to the candid world against the King of England, the repeated attempt to establish absolute tyranny you see that today we have in the form of our leader a man who would be king again. We have people in power who are destructive to our government, who are abusive of the power that should come from the consent of the govered.
Are we strong enough and wise enough to recognize our need to secure our rights?
Heh
Just another day. Not even historically accurate.
“BlueJay’s” inner nerd comes forth with –
“Just another day. Not even historically accurate.”
Yeah, it should be the 2nd of July.
But still you’ve got to admire the Continental Congress for their willingness to work over a holiday weekend.
#
lindainks55
Posted July 4, 2008 at 9:51 am | Permalink
When I read the Declaration of Independence this morning I was amazed that we’ve come almost full circle to the same abuses, repeated injuries and usurpations, despotism of government our founders recognized as reason to become independent from the rule of England.
If you read the list of facts submitted to the candid world against the King of England, the repeated attempt to establish absolute tyranny you see that today we have in the form of our leader a man who would be king again. We have people in power who are destructive to our government, who are abusive of the power that should come from the consent of the govered.
Are we strong enough and wise enough to recognize our need to secure our rights?
———————————
No, it’s just your perception of what you think is tyranny.
My life hasn’t changed since 2000 due to changes in certain laws. None of my families have changed. None of the people I know lives have changed.
Why? Because they aren’t terrorists and have nothing to worry about.
The terrorists, on the other hand, had lots to worry about.
Apparently, what President Bush did worked and you Libs just hate that it worked.
Now that Iraq has completed almost all of its markers set by the U.S. Congress, what are the Libs going to cry about next?
What rights have you lost?
I haven’t lost any rights and none of my rights have been infringed.
Only tinfoils believe they’ve lost something.
Common sense is what they have lost.
I pledge no allegiance, to the flag, which was made by slave labor in China. Nor to the corpocracy, for which it stands, one nation, under management, indefensible, with liberty and justice
for those who can afford it.
“Now that Iraq has completed almost all of its markers set by the U.S. Congress, what are the Libs going to cry about next?”
So we can leave now, right?
To Regular:
Red Skelton was a terrific man for his time. Have you considered that prayer itself is but a mere victim to something greater. I oppose ‘organized’ prayer in school for one simple reason-people who want to organize prayer in schools have an agenda and it is not God’s agenda. it is a human agenda that seeks to influence our youth with adult conceived expectations.
Parents! have the responsibility to teach the children the bible, schools have the responsiblity to teach children how to read. I fear our country giving in to right wing fear mongers….and these right wingers want to reach the your through the schools. If it weren’t for adults dictating what prayer is, I wouldn’t have a problem with prayer in school. The current state of Christianity in this nation sure seems to divide and castigate which is not what prayer is about at all.
Answer me this – how come(worldwide)people pray for an end to war, no more abortion, no more homosexuality, no more divorce, etc., and have prayed for centuries….and all of this stuff still exists? Does that ever register with you religious types? And don’t you get the feeling that you are gathering with ‘the choir’ to assuage your insecurities rather than acting like a true Christian and loving everyone equally everyday. Christians are not perfect, thus your prayers are more political than benevolent. What ever happened to taking your kid to church? And what ever happened to teaching your kid how to say a 1 minute prayer to themselves whenever they feel like it.What if you had decided to blog this morning by saying…”Hey Red, we loved you, times have changed, our country strives to respect all different people and their religious preferences. I have decided to teach my children how to pray for themselves rather than relying on a school to do it.”
Regular,
Thanks for the links to Yankee Doodle Dandy. It’s always been a favorite of mine. I’ve had the soundtrack (on vinyl) since I was a kid and know the words to every song. It’s amazing how well Cagney could dance!
Blue Jay…then please move away
I think our Gov should set one rule about our flag going forward – it must be made in America.
So we can leave now, right?
********************
No, we can’t bring our nation’s troops home now. The “conservatives will be keeping them in Iraq to protect Hunt Oil’s deal with the Iraqi Kurds, who are being attacked by the Turks. And, thanks to “conservatives” who accept using American troops to secure oil industry profits we’re paying increasingly high prices for gas.
http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/07/hunt-oil-kurds.html
Hunt Oil, Kurds, and Washington
E-mails seem to show that the U.S. government didn’t have a problem with Hunt Oil’s deal in the Kurdish North in Iraq. Frankly, that is not a surprise. In fact, I would expect that conversations this took place beforehand given the sensitive geopolitical nature of the deal. But this is different from what had been said when the deal drew headlines last year The U.S. government, and Mr. Bush, expressed surprise and consternation.
Thanks, Conservatives, for being such great reotectors of the American way of life. Don’t know what we’d do without you, except for not paying $4 for milk, gas, higher food bills, lower property values, foreclosures, job losses -.
BlueJay
Posted July 4, 2008 at 10:07 am | Permalink
I pledge no allegiance, to the flag, which was made by slave labor in China. Nor to the corpocracy, for which it stands, one nation, under management, indefensible, with liberty and justice
for those who can afford it.
——————————————————————-
From the self-proclaimed flag burner. And he’s so proud of it, he burned it in front of his son.
Linda, one King George is just like another King George.
Royalty. Above the law.
The king is dead, but long live the king!
BJ, on Independence Day, do you actually decide to work?
I mean, you hate your own country so much that you burn the American flag, so why should you honor the birth of the USA by taking a day off, watching the fireworks, having a BBQ, and celebrating the 4th of July Holiday?
Oh, that’s right, you don’t work.
You think all men are created Equal, and Equality should be maintained for all people by the Government, whether a person works for a living or not.
You need a new holiday JR, the Socialists must celebrate Marx’s birthday, and we need an August holiday, so try to get that new holiday for yourself.
I woke up this morning to a beautiful day. We have a family celebration planned with a nighttime trip downtown to watch the fireworks.
What a great country we live in that I can express my political views and so can everyone else whether they agree with me or not.
Lee Greenwood said it best when he sang “the flag still stands for freedom and they can’t take that away”. In a country where someone can stand in the city square and burn that symbol if they want. The gestopo won’t haul them away. In fact they can have police protection if they need it.
Well WS, Linda, Bluejay and anyone who wants to whine today – go for it. I won’t let you or anyone else steal my joy today. No would be kings in my world, no dictators either.
Regular thanks for the great links. My favorites.
Have a great 4th in the free USofA and if you have a minute thank the ‘men who died to give that right to you’.
Exercising your Constitutional right to free expression requires trust: trust in the system and a belief that it will stand fast in its values. It’s an act that deserves a lot more respect than the innuendo and coersion used to try to stop it. Why would you want to diminish a man in his own child’s eyes, anyway? That’s not your place, especially when he’s the one expressing faith in his country.
“Well WS, Linda, Bluejay and anyone who wants to whine today”
Shut up.
Forgot to mention that all of my neighborhood woke up to every street in our area lined with flags. Their must be hundreds of them. Some patriot took the time out of their sleep time last night to make sure we all remembered what the 4th is all about.
I love it – wish you could all see it. Might lighten your moods.
I mean, you hate your own country so much…
It has little to do with country and more to do with how the government is running the country. If you can’t see that, Max, I pity you. You are not immune. Reality could someday be the death of you.
No WS you don’t have to shut up. That’s the great part about our country. I just won’t allow you to steal my joy with this great country I live in. And you know if next 4th Obama is our prez and he has raised my taxes along with many on this blog and we still have troops in Iraq I will still have faith in my country. I will still celebrate the 4th and honor the flag and salute the men who died to protect my freedoms as well as BJs right to burn his flag if he chooses.
Ralphie
Posted July 4, 2008 at 11:23 am | Permalink
To Regular:
I oppose ‘organized’ prayer in school for one simple reason-people who want to organize prayer in schools have an agenda and it is not God’s agenda. it is a human agenda that seeks to influence our youth with adult conceived expectations…
… I fear our country giving in to right wing fear mongers….and these right wingers want to reach the your through the schools. If it weren’t for adults dictating what prayer is, I wouldn’t have a problem with prayer in school. The current state of Christianity in this nation sure seems to divide and castigate which is not what prayer is about at all.
Answer me this – how come(worldwide)people pray for an end to war, no more abortion, no more homosexuality, no more divorce, etc., and have prayed for centuries….and all of this stuff still exists? Does that ever register with you religious types? And don’t you get the feeling that you are gathering with ‘the choir’ to assuage your insecurities rather than acting like a true Christian and loving everyone equally everyday. Christians are not perfect, thus your prayers are more political than benevolent.
—————————
Well there Ralphie, it appears you have a lot to feel insecure about. Sorry, I don’t feel insecure about the things you do.
My uncle, a Southern Baptist Minister for 60 years once told me, “Sometimes a prayer unanswered to you may be answered to someone else. Sometimes no answer is the answer.”
Of course, I wasn’t aware that my prayers had a political bend to them. I don’t pray in Republican or do I pray in Democrat or Libertarian or Independent. I pray to God.
Odd perspective you have on life Ralphie, but hey, it’s your life.
How nice, ksgrm. Some patriot in my neighborhood was shooting off firecrackers at 2 a.m. And 4 a.m.
With a name like “Grobnik” Max?
What stake does your family have in this country?
Two generations? Maybe three?
Five here. And that is just my most recently arrived ancestors.
My heritage in this country predates the country itself. On some lines, I am the 12th generation born American. The three or four generations of those kin here before independence would have been subjects of the crown.
I have two I don’t know how many times great grandfathers who were here before the Mayflower.
I qualify for membership in the sons of the American Revolution. I also have an ancestor who was black listed as a traitor. He was a Quaker. I don’t know that he had any great love for the Crown. It is more likely that fighting was just not his thing. He had to flee for his life with all he could carry from the birth of “freedom”. THAT little bit of family lore I learned at the age of about 10. The irony has stuck with me and was the beginning of the end of hackles up my back for a piece of cloth or the words of a song.
I have ancestors who owned other human beings.
I have ancestors who fought to end that despicable institution.
I have direct descendants who fought in every war this country has ever waged except World War I and the Mexican American war.
These people you honor 232 years after the fact and 2 days off the mark? SOME of them were as I am today. They were agitators. They endeavored to build something the world had never dreamed of.
Others had a personal beef (they wanted to hang onto their money) with the Crown.
And others just got along and went along.
Those who think America is a finished experiment? The ones who wave the flag and bray “if you don’t like it, gid out!” Where do you suppose they would have been 232 years and 3 days ago?
I’ve earned by birthright my capacity to criticize and expect better of my country. There IS no greater love of country.
“Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.”
I owe my extensive family investment in this country to be the voice for them in this time that THEY helped us reach. I will not let them down to please you.
“I just won’t allow you to steal my joy with this great country I live in.”
I wouldn’t want to – not even you – and you are not alone by any means in having joy that you live in this country. Despite your comments, the nasty liberals also love their country and are proud of our nation as well. The difference is that we don’t allow patriotism to blind us to the reality that our country has serious issue to be resolved.
And, by the way, my flag was flying this morning at six am, as it does most days.
Dear Wingnuts,
Given the refrain, heard from Franklin, Nathan, and others, that non-state actor “enemy combatants” aren’t entitled to any legal protections, and therefore can be tortured or killed as the U.S. Government sees fit, I would like to direct your attention to the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, and to point out that the Founders flatly rejected your contention:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
It isn’t conditional. ALL men are created equal, all are endowed with inalienable rights, and that these are the guarantees of life, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness.
Flag-worship is never patriotic–ever. For an American, true patriotism is the defense of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, even in the face of opposition from authoritarian flag-worshippers. Given its betrayal of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the contemporary GOP couldn’t have proven itself more unfit to lead this nation.
May it yet be within the power of We The People to renew our Republic, lest it be destroyed from within by those who would betray the principles of self-government and would deny the Rights of Man.
Happy Fourth of July, and God bless the United States of America.
A man who was my mentor had a brass plague on his desk with these letters:
L I D G T T — F T A T I M
It was his prayer. He said he had been so blessed he didn’t want to ask for anything but sure wanted to remember to be thankful.
The letters stood for these words:
Lord, I do give thee thanks — for the abundance that is mine.
I was lucky enough to have this great man as my boss and mentor for 17 years. I doubt his prayer is as moving to anyone else but then I had the privilege of knowing him and his depth of character, his charity and dignity.
His philosophy as a business owner was that his manufacturing facilities, his warehouses, offices, equipment could all be taken and if he still had his people he would rebuild it all. He always made every employee feel just that special and valuable.
After graduating from Texas A&M in 1942 he entered the Army, serving under the 1st Cavalry Division. While serving in the Pacific Theater during WWII he was awarded with the Purple Heart, Silver and Bronze Stars. He retired from the military as a Colonel in 1970.
He is one of the many reasons I am thankful and proud of America. He is one of the many reasons I know my country is in deep trouble and we need to guard against the abuse of our leaders to be sure power comes from the consent of the governed.
I may be a little off in placing my generations.
When your hobby is researching people, some of whom have been dead for 300 years, it can get confusing.
Ever hear of “Bacon’s castle”?
I hadn’t either and don’t know a lot about “Bacon’s rebellion” either. I should really read up on it.
My I don’t know how many times great grandfather Allen built the thing.
Patriotism is not flying a flag or wearing a flag lapel pin, or even singing the Star Spangled Banner (a war song) or reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.
Patriot is defined as:
1.a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) military. a u.s. army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.
Note that #1 does not say BLIND devotion.
And I’ll take definition number 2, Monty.
oko/grm,
Buying Chinese flags is supporting slave labor, while ruining the ecomomics of our country.
Yeah, that sounds like a true patriot to me. (/sarcasm)
“Flag worship” is the word of the day for duh Libs.
No one worships the flag that I ever knew or heard of.
What they do have, is respect for the symbol that the flag represents.
Duh Libs appear to be lacking in giving any respect to the flag.
I respect the flag, I don’t worship it.
I stood reveille for three days, in the rain, when LBJ died. Saluting the flag and honoring the deceased President. I wasn’t a fan of his, but honored his position and the flag symbolized all that is great about the United States of America.
The Muppet poster, CF2K, cannot differentiate between respect and ideology.
Ideology is all he has and it is an empty set of thoughts predicated to the stance of empty values, void of morality and completely vacant of consistent action.
Predestined I agree with number two. Many lifestyles and choices make up the makeup of our great country. I guess I even understand where those who are pro choice are coming from. But in this country we live in we have a lot of different views and the pro life crowd look at that baby as a person who is defenseless and needs someone to stand up for them.
What a country that is big enough to hold all of our views and not explode whether inward or outward,.
Republican candidate McCain apparently does not wear an American flag pin.
Sumbitch! I figured he loved this country but apparently not.
The Manchurian Candidate indeed.
A fine showing by Constitutional constructivists (that is, if you know American government isn’t based on the Ten Commandments); those on this board who actually know what the Declaration declares and the Constitution ordains. You guys DO realize that in fighting for civil rights you all are securing a future for these others – who haven’t a clue what you’re talking about – to keep calling you names and trying to put an end to those same rights?
Yes, CelticKin, we really do get it. We know they will continue to show exactly who they are with their every post. They don’t need our help, our country does. Everyone, ALL were created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights… EVERYONE!
We really might be “kin,” if the Celtic part of your name indicates heritage. ;-)
Regular, I believe “Flag worship” is an example of the mindset many posters believe they are addressing. I believe a similar Old Testament reference would be “stiff-necked.” *chortle*
Naw Celtic Kin,
The only thing you and your fellow Libs have indicated here is hate and intolerance of others with different views.
As I said, point out anyone to me that does flag worship. I bet you can’t, because the concept of ‘flag worship’ is an attempt by Libs to affix some sort of ‘lower than thou’ status on others.
When you assign such names, you have already yielded any advantage you may have thought you had to validate the argument.
That’s the whole problem with the Liberal argument. They try to assign ‘catch phrases and names’ to others to whom they disagree.
Because of this dependence on name assignment, they have lost the ability to argue objectively.
Without objectivity, one cannot hope to establish premise, nor can they hope to build upon their statements because they have given up salient speech for downward spiraling and meaningless rhetoric.
Celtic I think you miss the point that many make. It is a symbol of the pride we feel for our country. Not something we hold up as something to worship. Why does it matter if the confederate flag is waved if it is a symbol which means nothing.
As for name calling neither side has the exclusive right to say they are blameless. As Lincoln said so aptly ‘a house divided will not long stand’. Maybe we all need to move to that middle ground and find out which aspects we can agree on instead of focusing on our differences.
“Duh Libs appear to be lacking in giving any respect to the flag.”
“There ought to be limits on freedom.” George W Bush 2000.
The presumption that only conservatives can be patriotic is not only false, but it is a primary source of the divisiveness in our country. Comments to that end are counterproductive and dangerous.
Liberals, are just as patriotic as conservatives in every way, shape and form. Our opinions are obviously different regarding the best course for our nation, but there is no lack of love of country on the left.
The divide began with the human POS Lee At Water (deliberate spelling) and continued with the equally disgusting Karl Rove, and is continued by some of the mindless conservatives on this blog.
Perhaps one day some of these people will wake up to the realization that patriotism is not embodied in a Flag lapel pin or flying a Chinese made flag or in accusing Liberals of being lesser citizens.
Patriotism is a love of country and working to make it the best country possible.
Yeah, we sure better change the “hate-filled” Declaration of Independence and US Constitution we’ve been quoting. Wouldn’t want horrible documents like that to exist, ever.
Can you imagine what those would create:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
We best be for getting rid of these, and FAST.
*wink wink chortle*
“Without objectivity, one cannot hope to establish premise, nor can they hope to build upon their statements because they have given up salient speech for downward spiraling and meaningless rhetoric.”
Exactly like ‘Regular’, who LIES about climate science, and what caused the New Orleans levees to fail.
Celtic Kin,
Indeed. That’s the irony about the Rights of Man: their guarantees apply even to those individuals who would reject them.
It’s a paradox of Enlightenment tolerance that the social space it creates also creates the possibility of intolerance as well. Unlike others (notably Carl Schmitt), though, I don’t see this as a fatal flaw of liberal societies that has to be corrected by recourse to some absolute sovereign not bound by the rule of law.
Self-government or bust: no legitimate alternative exists. “Legitimacy,” however, seems to be a nicety that the contemporary GOP has no problem dispensing with.
Celtic, WS and Linda in all honesty I think you need to back up and read your own posts. If you honestly believe that only the left has all of the answers then you will be continued to be disappointed with whoever is leading our country.
I don’t believe the right has all of the answers and if fact have outlined before some serious differences I have with Bush and McCain. Until we lose the we vs themn mentality in our great nation we are at a stalemate.
Liberals, are just as patriotic as conservatives in every way, shape and form. Our opinions are obviously different …
************************
Yeah, they’re actually based on the ideals this nation was founded on.
I think “liberal” is a misnomer that’s being wrongly and deceptively associated with “leftist” ideals like Marxism and communism. The people on this board who are being denigrated with this put down term “liberal” are really Constitutional constructivists, and are actually capable of expressing an understanding of American ideals.
None of us is quoting Marx, but we’re being treated as if we are by people who are either 1) so truly uninformed about American government that they don’t know what they’re talking about or 2) are being intentionally deceptive in the way they address others for some pay off they place ahead of being honest.
The funny this is, that I would fit right into the 18th century with no problems whatsoever and exist as a contributing member of society.
The liberals of today could not and would not want to live under the principled mindset of the 18th century.
People like CelticKin furthers diminishes any point he has by stealing my marker of (chortle – which he spells wrong, it’s chortles).
CelticKin cannot understand that he is his own worst enemy. If he can’t attack someone, then he has to play the victim and cry foul.
CelticKin has yet to learn how to argue as an adult.
Yeah, Hey Regular – *chortle*
Celtic Kin,
You are, of course, correct about the deliberate conflation of “liberal” with “leftist,” by the very Right Wingers who a) claim the mantle of “liberal” a la Jefferson, while b) endorsing precisely that sort of absolute sovereignty that Jefferson and others most rejected.
Reactionaries hate self-government. Period. Given the last thirty-five years of their defense of “if the President does it, it isn’t illegal” their knee-jerk response is an invariable advocacy of submission to authority. This renders their claim to assume the Jeffersonian mantle as ludicrous as can be.
If today’s “conservatives” were transported back to 1776, they’d be Tory defenders of the English crown. As it is, their arguments for the absolute sovereign of the American President qua “Commander in Chief” disqualifies them from ever–EVER–wearing the name “liberal.” They are illiberal in the extreme.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering which of the first ten amendments in the Bill of Right Regular wanted to get rid of. But, I notice, once again rather than responding to the substance of the conversation he chose to put me down personally and defend his sole proprietorship of “chortles” and its variations.
How many of these guys do you think we can convert to not believing America is bad and the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are a threat?
I guess I even understand where those who are pro choice are coming from.
You’ve really fallen off the edge, ksgrm.
CF2K
Posted July 4, 2008 at 1:49 pm | Permalink
If today’s “conservatives” were transported back to 1776, they’d be Tory defenders of the English crown. As it is, their arguments for the absolute sovereign of the American President qua “Commander in Chief” disqualifies them from ever–EVER–wearing the name “liberal.” They are illiberal in the extreme.
———————–
You have that exactly opposite Muppet.
Modern day Libs believe in religious persecution just as the British did. Modern day Libs in allegiance to status, just like the British did. Modern day Libs believe in excessive taxation and with out just cause or representation, just like the British did.
Whatever the modern day Libs believe in is exactly what the true patriots of the revolution were fighting against.
Multi-nic’d ‘Regular’,
Please prove your “objectivity” re carbon taxes and the Sierra Club.
If today’s “conservatives” were transported back to 1776, they’d be Tory defenders of the English crown.
Amen.
Regular,
When have you not been allowed to worship the G/god you choose to worship?
On the other hand, why am I expected to worship the G/god YOU and Nathan and others choose to worship?
Yeah, I believe in the Bill of Rights, Regular and the “true patriots of the revolution were fighting against” it. They fought FOR a bill of rights that they understood they need based on the English Bill of Rights – it was steeped in their history.
So, the “true patriots of the revolution” WROTE the Bill of Rights but they were against it.
It boggles the mind, doesn’t it?
“The funny this is, that I would fit right into the 18th century with no problems whatsoever and exist as a contributing member of society.”
What the Hell, McCluer? You don’t even fit in TODAY’S society.
Predestined
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:01 pm | Permalink
Regular,
When have you not been allowed to worship the G/god you choose to worship?
————————-
I said persecuted, not “not been allowed.” Of course, historically, persecution precedes banning.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Oh and Roxie, no one expects or requires you to worship any God. That concept of handcuffing to the church comes from you and no one else.
You have the freedom to do as you wish.
Predestined,
Thanks for the shout-out.
My use of the word “fascist” to describe the totally Repuke submission to Presidential (and Vice-Presidential) authority is a bit of a misnomer, given that these same people and their ideological forbearers (i.e. Edmund Burke) really are Royalists, in a precisely 17th and 18th century sense. They manifestly ascribe legitimacy to paternalistic sorts of authority, and turn the full force of their hatred against those who reject submission to authority.
From Nixon to Bush, the last thirty-five years–Watergate, Iran-Contra, and now Bush’s illegal war and approval of torture and domestic spying–have been about the GOP tearing down the abilty of American citizens to govern themselves.
The record is clear: the GOP is the party that is working to secure pure, unchecked, sovereign power. As such, it is the anti-Constitutional Party in America, and deserves to be destroyed and its leaders jailed for treason.
CF2K – do you have a plan for putting these modern day Royalists and their minions in their place?
#
CF2K
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:08 pm | Permalink
Predestined,
Thanks for the shout-out.
My use of the word “fascist” to describe the totally Repuke submission to Presidential (and Vice-Presidential) authority is a bit of a misnomer, given that these same people and their ideological forbearers (i.e. Edmund Burke) really are Royalists, in a precisely 17th and 18th century sense. They manifestly ascribe legitimacy to paternalistic sorts of authority, and turn the full force of their hatred against those who reject submission to authority.
From Nixon to Bush, the last thirty-five years–Watergate, Iran-Contra, and now Bush’s illegal war and approval of torture and domestic spying–have been about the GOP tearing down the abilty of American citizens to govern themselves.
The record is clear: the GOP is the party that is working to secure pure, unchecked, sovereign power. As such, it is the anti-Constitutional Party in America, and deserves to be destroyed and its leaders jailed for treason.
——————————–
Hmm, this sounds familiar.
Just as the British wanted to hang the Colonists for treason when the Colonists declared their independence.
The more that the Libs try to make a comparison, the more they appear to be more like the British Lords and Governors that oppressed the colonists from their inalienable rights.
I don’t need to bury the Libs, they have brought their own shovels and doing it themselves.
CelticKin,
Just the obvious one: throw the Repukes out of national power come November, and ceaselessly harry and cajole the newly-empowered Democrats to restore Constitutional government.
Oh, and to do everything possible to strengthen said Democrats against our fascist corporate DC media and its relentlessly fanciful pro-Repuke narrative.
Regular
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:05 pm | Permalink
I said persecuted, not “not been allowed.” Of course, historically, persecution precedes banning.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christians often seem afraid that someone is attacking them. The devil “duh libs” etc.
CF2K, you’re not exactly the warm and fuzzy type, are you???
CF2K
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:16 pm | Permalink
CelticKin,
Just the obvious one: throw the Repukes out of national power come November, and ceaselessly harry and cajole the newly-empowered Democrats to restore Constitutional government.
Oh, and to do everything possible to strengthen said Democrats against our fascist corporate DC media and its relentlessly fanciful pro-Repuke narrative.
#
LLTVET
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:16 pm | Permalink
Regular
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:05 pm | Permalink
I said persecuted, not “not been allowed.” Of course, historically, persecution precedes banning.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christians often seem afraid that someone is attacking them. The devil “duh libs” etc.
————————
Where did you get the idea that anyone is experiencing fear?
You obviously wanted to make a point with Dr. Woods, because you had some sort of exposure in some sort of religious studies in school.
But why would you want to do that? For what purpose? To turn people away from choosing the faith of their choice?
Are you so afraid that people make their own choices regarding faith that you find it necessary to destroy that confidence in their faith?
Just what is it that drives you to be on the attack?
If you want to be an atheist or an agnostic, that’s fine with me.
However, was is it about my faith that you wish to destroy? Because you don’t like it or hate it?
That’s (dislike or hate) is not a good reason and is contrary to the what has been written here today on the Constitution, the Declaration and the founding fathers ideas.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.”
God bless America. Happy Independence Day.
Christians often seem afraid that someone is attacking them. The devil “duh libs” etc.
I think it’s interesting that the recently released Evangelical Manifesto pretty clearly states that its signatories don’t believe they are victims:
***
As followers of “the narrow way,” our concern is not for approval and popular
esteem. Nor do we regard it as accurate or faithful to pose as victims, or to protest at
discrimination. We certainly do not face persecution like our fellow-believers elsewhere
in the world. Too many of the problems we face as Evangelicals in the United States are
those of our own making. If we protest, our protest has to begin with ourselves.
***
But, those Christians who wouldn’t be caught dead signing it continue to cast themselves in the victim role despite the fact they talk about their faith inexhaustibly and without ever being thrown in jail, having all their property taken, burned at the stake. It says a lot that some Christians who view themselves as “persecuted” fail see the distinctions.
Mult-nic’d ‘Regular’ posted July 4, 2008 at 2:23 pm
“That’s (dislike or hate) is not a good reason and is contrary to the what has been written here today on the Constitution, the Declaration and the founding fathers ideas.”
——————–
Mult-nic’d ‘Regular’ dislikes (or hates) carbon taxes, credible climate scientists, and the Sierra Club.
Mult-nic’d ‘Regular’ has no “objectivity” on those issues.
#
CelticKin
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:31 pm | Permalink
Christians often seem afraid that someone is attacking them. The devil “duh libs” etc.
I think it’s interesting that the recently released Evangelical Manifesto pretty clearly states that its signatories don’t believe they are victims:
***
As followers of “the narrow way,” our concern is not for approval and popular
esteem. Nor do we regard it as accurate or faithful to pose as victims, or to protest at
discrimination. We certainly do not face persecution like our fellow-believers elsewhere
in the world. Too many of the problems we face as Evangelicals in the United States are
those of our own making. If we protest, our protest has to begin with ourselves.
***
But, those Christians who wouldn’t be caught dead signing it continue to cast themselves in the victim role despite the fact they talk about their faith inexhaustibly and without ever being thrown in jail, having all their property taken, burned at the stake. It says a lot that some Christians who view themselves as “persecuted” fail see the distinctions.
——————————–
You know CelticKin, if you stop drawing conclusions for other groups of people and deal with your own agenda in life, things would be better.
Have you no tolerance for anyone that differs from yourself?
It appears me that the modern liberal thought is of intolerance. That core ideology the modern libs hold dear is the anti-thesis of what the founding fathers fought and died for.
cosmos appears to be unwilling or perhaps unable to join in the discussion. His loss.
Heck yeah, Regluar, sitting in a comfy church two or three days a week, pot lucks and barbeques, taking the youth group to Worlds of Fun HAS TO BE just as terrible as being burned at the stake – feeling the heat as the flesh melts off your bones. Regular, you poor guy. I have my unending sympathies for the terrible persecution you face here in America.
#
CelticKin
Posted July 4, 2008 at 2:51 pm | Permalink
Heck yeah, Regluar, sitting in a comfy church two or three days a week, pot lucks and barbeques, taking the youth group to Worlds of Fun HAS TO BE just as terrible as being burned at the stake – feeling the heat as the flesh melts off your bones. Regular, you poor guy. I have my unending sympathies for the terrible persecution you face here in America.
——————————-
Again CelticKin,
Your avoiding having a mature conversation here.
Next time there is a thread about science, look how many attacks there are made on people of faith. Or, if the Libs needs a whipping boy, they’ll point to one of their favorites, “Bible Thumpers” or “Proselytizing religious nut jobs.”
As I said, the modern day Libs are intolerant and their behavior in spreading their ideology with hate, intolerance and animus is the antithesis of what our founding fathers fought and died for.
Yes, Regular, because there’s so much maturity in you comparing yourself as “persecuted” to people throughtout time who have been burned at the stake for their beliefs. There’s medication for that, you know.
Regular
Posted July 4, 2008 at 1:37 pm | Permalink
The funny this is, that I would fit right into the 18th century with no problems whatsoever and exist as a contributing member of society.
*****
Sorry, just can’t let this one pass. That statement is truly very “funny” James. You might recall that in the 18th century they did not have very good orthepedic surgeons and their treatment of diabetes was pretty limited, too. So, if you were your age in the 18th century, you’d be buried in some church yard somewhere. Maybe that is your definition of “fitting in”.
On the “chortles” thing – there was a poster here the first year who always posted that. Did you post with a different nic before “JM”?
James. I have told you several times that I have no problem with your religion. But your post is self-evident. You feel as though you are being presecuted. You are not being persecuted. You are merely being told that this is not a Christian Country any more than it is a muslim one. Is that an attack? I don’t think so.
You are being told that Christianity should not be the basis for values. Is that a persecution? Of course not.
So why did you post about being or feeling persecuted? And why would you be afraid of the proverbial next step of being banned? Your fears are without basis.
#
StevenEDavis
Posted July 4, 2008 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
Regular
Posted July 4, 2008 at 1:37 pm | Permalink
The funny this is, that I would fit right into the 18th century with no problems whatsoever and exist as a contributing member of society.
*****
Sorry, just can’t let this one pass. That statement is truly very “funny” James. You might recall that in the 18th century they did not have very good orthepedic surgeons and their treatment of diabetes was pretty limited, too. So, if you were your age in the 18th century, you’d be buried in some church yard somewhere. Maybe that is your definition of “fitting in”.
On the “chortles” thing – there was a poster here the first year who always posted that. Did you post with a different nic before “JM”?
—————————
So Steven Davis,
You chose to take the easier route of ad hominem instead of participating in the discussion.
As far as my illnesses and injuries go, I may or may not had any of those because the circumstances that caused them didn’t exist back then.
—————————————-
#
CelticKin
Posted July 4, 2008 at 3:01 pm | Permalink
Yes, Regular, because there’s so much maturity in you comparing yourself as “persecuted” to people throughtout time who have been burned at the stake for their beliefs. There’s medication for that, you know.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Once again, you have failed your side of the modern day Liberal to defend your position.
Instead, you take the easy way out with the ad hominem.
I have given you good discussion with insight into my mind.
However, the progressive liberals on this board will have nothing to do with it because they cannot let go of their contempt and built up hatred for those things they do not understand or want to tolerate.
I’m done and tried to discuss, but the Liberals have failed to discuss.
And that folks, is quite telling.
Is it common for the other “conservatives” not to stick around and come to Regular’s defense?
I mean, they all agree with him, but when he’s getting picked apart and sounds a little out of touch with reality do they leave because they know their arguments are being picked apart too, but they don’t want to face it so they leave? And, then they come back another time just to say the same time just so they can leave again when their arguments are being picked apart?
That’s kind of an interesting pattern.
Video of a flag burning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF2iX2VG6e4
That’s just it James. I see a dismal record of tolerance among the conservative religious. I often see a mindset that considers compromise as evil.
Until that changes, those of dissent will not be comfortable with conservative religious.
Evangelical Manifesto
http://www.evangelicalmanifesto.com/docs/Evangelical_Manifesto.pdf
There are some Christian Evangelicals who, to their credit, aren’t following this pattern of and perceived persecution and victimization. I think it’s unlikely I will ever be a big fan of Christian fundamentalism, but I do believe that people who are attempting an honest assessment of their faith and values deserve some recognition for it.
well, anyway, Happy Independence Day everyone!!!!
Happy Birthday America.
Still the best idea of government around and the best country in the world.
Just my opinion.
GREAT video, TomPaine. Thanks for posting it.
My thanks too, TomPaine.
Celtic there are some of us who have a life outside of blogging and mine was cooking for a crowd I am just getting ready to feed. Just passed my laptop and cked in for a minute. Sorry I was around to defend Regular but have found he does fines for himself.
If liberals say the same things over and over and over again does that make them right?
As far as my illnesses and injuries go, I may or may not had any of those because the circumstances that caused them didn’t exist back then.
**********
I say fire up the time machine and let’s send him back today. It may even improve his health. ‘Win-Win’ if you ask me.
BTW I just love how ‘tolerant’ you libs are with evangelical Christians. You are some kinda defenders of freedom of speech.
Have a great 4th. I’m going to turn this off so I won’t be tempted to stop again.
HAPPY FOURTH!!
I’ll post the speech of Evangelical Christians to whom I am giving full create for their efforts to better understand their role in the faith:
And the names of numerous of them who’s efforts at self-awarenes and deepening their faith I think is admirable. They’ve signed on to acknowledge that they aren’t victims. It’s just inconsistent with “persection” that believers can be pursued by politicians, have a direct line to politicians, cause grand juries to be convened and then act as if they’re being burned at the stake. I’m sorry, that’s just not being persecuted.
So, to the signatories of the Evangelical Manifesto, my regards:
Charter Signatories
Leith Anderson
Pastor, Wooddale Church, Minneapolis, Minnesota, President, National Association of Evangelicals
Bob Andringa
Managing Partner, The Andringa Group
Don Argue
Chancellor, Northwest University
Kay Arthur
Founder, Precept Ministries
Mark Bailey
President, Dallas Theological Seminary
Dennis Bakke
Co-Founder and CEO Emeritus, AES Corporation
Mark Batterson
Pastor, National Community Church, Washington, D.C.
David Bere
President and COO, Dollar General
Doug Birdsall
Executive Chair, The Lausanne Movement
Darrell Bock
Research Professor of New Testament, Dallas Theological Seminary
Stuart Briscoe
Author, Minister-at-Large, Elmbrook Church, Brookfield, Wisconsin
George Brushaber
President, Bethel University
Bob Buford
Businessman/Founder, Leadership Network
Isaac Canales
Pastor, Mission Ebenezer
M. Daniel Carroll R.
Distinguished Professor of Old Testament, Denver Seminary
Paul Cedar
Chair, Mission America, Richard Cizik Governmental Affairs, National Association of Evangelicals
Luis Cortés
President, Nueva Esperanza USA
Loren Cunningham Co-Founder, Youth With A Mission
Danny DeLeon
Pastor, Templo Calvario, Santa Ana, California
Max De Pree
Author and Mentor
Leighton Ford
President, Leighton Ford Ministries
Justo Gonzalez
David Gushee
Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics, Mercer University
Adam Hamilton
Pastor, United Methodist Church of the Resurrection, Leawood, Kansas
Jack Hayford
Founding Pastor, The Church on The Way, President, International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
Roberta Hestenes
Educator/Author/Speaker, Former President, Eastern University
Dean Hirsch
President, World Vision International
H. Wayne Huizenga, Jr.
President, Huizenga Holdings
Joel Hunter
Pastor, Northland – A Church Distributed, Longwood, Florida
Walter Kaiser
President Emeritus, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Rich Karlgaard
Publisher, Forbes Magazine
John Kim
President, Global Leadership Development Institute
Kelly Monroe Kullberg
The Veritas Forum
Peter Kuzmic
Eva B. and Paul E. Toms Distinguished
Professor of World Missions and European Studies, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Duane Litfin
President, Wheaton College
Max Lucado
Senior Pastor, Oak Hills Church, San Antonio, Texas, Author
Erwin Lutzer
Pastor, Moody Church, Chicago, Illinois
Gordon MacDonald
Author/Pastor
Sammy Mah
President and CEO, World Relief
Paul Marshall
Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute
Eric J. Metaxas
Socrates in the City
Jack Modesett
Partner, Vega Energy
Sam Moffett
Professor Emeritus, Princeton Theological Seminary
J. P. Moreland
Distinguished Professor of Philosophy, Biola University
Shirley Mullen
President, Houghton College
Mark Noll
Professor of History, University of Notre Dame
John Ortberg
Pastor, Menlo Park Presbyterian Church, Menlo Park, California
Vic Pentz
Pastor, Peachtree Presbyterian Church, Atlanta, Georgia
Rebecca Manley Pippert
Saltshaker Ministries
Alvin Plantinga
Professor of Philosophy, University of Notre Dame
Mel Robeck
Professor of Ecumenics, Fuller Seminary
Bob Roberts
Senior Pastor, NorthWood Church, Keller, Texas
Mark Roberts
Senior Director and Scholar in Residence, Laity Lodge
Mark Rodgers
The Clapham Group
Sammy Rodriquez, Jr.
President, National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference
Chris Seiple
President, Institute for Global Engagement
Robert Seiple
Ambassador, International Religious Freedom
Marguerite Shuster
Professor Preaching, Fuller Theological Seminary
Ronald J. Sider
President, Evangelicals for Social Action
Harold Smith
Editor in Chief and CEO, Christianity Today International
Rich Stearns
President, World Vision U.S. Joe Stowell President, Cornerstone University
Stephen Strang
Founder, Charisma Magazine
James Tonkowich
President, Institute on Religion & Democracy
Kevin J. Vanhoozer
Research Professor of Systematic Theology, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Eldin Villafañe
Professor, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Miroslav Volf
Henry B. Wright Professor of Systematic Theology, Yale Divinity School
Ken Wales
Filmmaker
Jim Wallis
Founder and Editor, Sojourners Magazine
Frank Wright
President, National Religious Broadcasters
John Yates
Pastor, The Falls Church, Falls Church, Virginia
Amos Yong
Professor of Theology, Regent University
et al.
Oops, forgot the address for the Manifesto:
http://www.evangelicalmanifesto.com/sign.php
Progressive Liberals have NO problem with Evangelicals… Just keep your Faith as YOUR Faith… Keep it out of the Courthousse… Keep it out of the School House…. Keep it out of Politics… Keep it IN the Church House…
If you want to have a RALLY, Go for it!! Advertise it… Buy time on Radio and TV… Use the media to promote the RALLY…. Use marketing skills by all means!! Go for it!!
But DONT keep agitating to take over government, or schools, or courts, or any of those methods that would infringe on the Freedom of OTHERS to NOT accept your type of religious beliefs…
You want missionaries??? SEND them!!! The Progressive Liberals have missionaries too!!
Just keep your RELIGION within your Church, and your Chuch structure(organization)… You have ALL the Freedom you could ever hope for to exercise that Freedom of Religion ALL you want!!
Just dont throw it in the face of those who DONT WANT IT!!!
So, you see, it isnt your FAITH that is the problem…. It is what you DO with that Faith….
Maybe thats what needs discussion…. Maybe this “faith based initiative” can further that discussion…. I hope…
If liberals say the same things over and over and over again does that make them right?
*********************
Not necessarily. But, If they’re posting the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution as the ideals of American government over and over again, it makes them valid and reliable.
Spot on, Celtic Kin
Abortion is legal and will continue to be legal.
Republicans were in control of both Houses for years and never bothered to introduce an Amendment to make abortion illegal.
Christians can get their State Legislatures to override Congress and make abortion illegal but they have CHOSEN not to take this action.
Christians support abortion as do the majority of Americans.
CelticKin posted July 4, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“Is it common for the other “conservatives” not to stick around and come to Regular’s defense?”
————–
Nathaniel tried to defend multi-nic’d ‘Regular’ by attacking me — but Nathaniel ran away when I asked him to answer four simple points, here.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/07/open-thread-702/#comment-377191
Christians support abortion as do the majority of Americans.
******************
I think you’re a little loose with your definition of “support”, KansasNative. You’re taking a pretty big swipe at the issue and bundling a bunch of people in a broad assumption. The danger of that, it seems to me, is pushing moderates into the pro-life camp because they don’t want to believe they “support” abortion. Why do that? I think the majority of Americans abhor abortion but want it to remain safe and legal in a few exceptional cases, like rape, incest, and life of the mother.
Celtickin; thanks for posting that manifesto. Very well written document. But from what I read, you don’t subscribe to it. So if you are trying to use it as a reference, keep in mind it is a document with no authority.
I don’t understand your point about victimization. I haven’t seen those claims. But if radical secular libs like it looks like think they rule this blog are attacking evangelicals, Christians, and faith, do you expect them to not respond? Fat chance.
This is not a secular nation. It is a nation profoundly influenced by faith and people of faith. That’s the way it was intended, the way it is, and the way it should be.
My point is that Christians have not even attempted to change the Constitution regarding abortion.
Again…have not even attempted….to make the Constitution recognize that the unborn have “rights”.
They had the votes and the Representatives at one time to do away with abortion and didn’t.
The handwringing is phoney.
Abortion is just as much a moneymaker for the right as it is for Planned Parenthood.
Regular,
When have you been persecuted for being a Christian?
Wow, outlander, you’re taking a really cheap shot at me in your post. I think it’s sad you chose to do that, because – point if fact – the issue of victimization – is addressed IN the manifesto which you would know if in addition to “thanking” me for posting it you would have bothered to read it. Really insincere thanks and a cheap, cheap shot, on your part, outlander. And, I think you’ve born false witness against the signatories of the document for not really reading it and being misleading in what it says just to suit yourself. That’s really sad. mostly, it’s sad for the faith.
Let me get the quote about victims for you from the manifesto. You would have had to read four WHOLE short paragraphs to see it:
As followers of “the narrow way,” our concern is not for approval and popular
esteem. Nor do we regard it as accurate or faithful to pose as victims, or to protest at
discrimination. We certainly do not face persecution like our fellow-believers elsewhere
in the world. Too many of the problems we face as Evangelicals in the United States are
those of our own making. If we protest, our protest has to begin with ourselves.
Predestined
Posted July 4, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Permalink
Regular,
When have you been persecuted for being a Christian?
*****
NOW, and
*****
Predestined
Posted July 4, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Permalink
Regular,
When have you been persecuted for being a Christian?
*****
NOW, and
*****
Predestined
Posted July 4, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Permalink
Regular,
When have you been persecuted for being a Christian?
*****
NOW, and
*****
Predestined
Posted July 4, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Permalink
Regular,
When have you been persecuted for being a Christian?
*****
NOW and ………………..
**********
I saw you light that match, Predestined.
I know people who wear their faith, convictions, love and innate goodness like a second skin. It goes with them everywhere they go, shows in each deed and word even tho they aren’t speaking of “religion.” Their smiles light up a room, their kindness in sincere and they live charity without speaking of it. I don’t remember a time these friends, family and acquaintances have ever defined themselves by using a political party or labeled members of any political party as wrong, immoral or any less or more than other human beings.
They inspire me.
lindainks55,
Those people you speak of, that inspire you…they are called children. And they inspire me also.
But they have not yet lived long enough to encounter the likes of the liberals on this blog, so unfortunately their charm will not last forever.
But lets enjoy and learn from them while we can, they are treasures.
Victim:
Boxlock
Posted July 4, 2008 at 6:34 pm | Permalink
lindainks55,
Those people you speak of, that inspire you…they are called children. And they inspire me also.
But they have not yet lived long enough to encounter the likes of the liberals on this blog, so unfortunately their charm will not last forever.
But lets enjoy and learn from them while we can, they are treasures.
“This is not a secular nation.”
Yes it is – by design – this is a republic, not a theocracy.
“But if radical secular libs”
What is a radical Secular Liberal?
Is that anything like a Radical Religious Right Wing Conservative, only on the other side of the fence?
“But they have not yet lived long enough to encounter the likes of the liberals on this blog, so unfortunately their charm will not last forever.”
Blow it out of your fleetwood, Box Head.
“This is not a secular nation.”
Factually incorrect statement. This is a profoundly secular nation. The Constitution makes this explicit. Secular does not mean anti-religious, it means a government not based on religious precepts, and neutral on religious questions.
“It is a nation profoundly influenced by faith and people of faith. That’s the way it was intended, the way it is, and the way it should be.”
The reason why this country is comparatively religious is that people are free to be religious, or not. That is the way it was intended.
Boxlock
Posted July 4, 2008 at 6:34 pm | Permalink
lindainks55,
Those people you speak of, that inspire you…they are called children. And they inspire me also.
But they have not yet lived long enough to encounter the likes of the liberals on this blog, so unfortunately their charm will not last forever.
But lets enjoy and learn from them while we can, they are treasures
================================================
Right . . . ever watch children play together? They could care less what color, religion or nationality they are. Where do you think many of them learn their racist attitudes from when they get older? It sure as hell ain’t the Liberals.
I have met many racists since living in both Kansas and Missouri, and all have been died in the wool Republicans. And they teach their kids the same thing. Does that mean all Republicans are racist? Not in a New York minute, but there sure seems to be more Republicans who carry on the disgusting racist attitude than Democrats.
Children are precious, and deserve to learn all men are created equal, as the Bill Of Rights and the Constitution proclaim. Many great men and women died for those rights, and they don’t include racism.
So, boxlick, there’s more to life than either republican or democrat. My suggestion is give the children copies of both the Bill of Rights and the United States Constitution, and let them figure out what they mean by themselves. You just might be surprised at the outcome.
Ha, ha….got ya WS.
You know the shoe fits, you just don’t like being made to wear it.
Have a happy 4th of July.
Dance poodle dance!
Still supporting abortion by putting money in your 401k Boxlicker?
When you read the Declaration, have the Bill of Rights at hand. Note, many of the complaints raised in the Declaration are addressed in the Bill of Rights. Many others were addressed in the original Constitution.
To understand these documents, you should understand the context, thew British Army occupation and arms confiscation in Boston, the powder and arms raids in Vermont and Virginia, the show trials of British soldiers, trials without juries. A long list and there are still answers to be discovered.
But the words do mean exactly what they say. It troubles me that four Justices on the Supreme Court don’t understand the Second Amendment. I am very grateful that five Justices do!
Oh JM…throttle down there guy.
My comment was meant to ‘humor’ those that have the ability to laugh, and irritate those that don’t. Of which there are an abundance of the later on this blog.
You seem to be straddling the fence with some of the good things you have to say and then again some of the bad.
There are equal numbers of racist in both political parties, the Repubs just may be more honest about it though, and there in lies the difference.
As far as children;
Mark 18-2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
And you have a happy 4th. also.
KansasNative,
Did you forget the nic mutilation thing?
Or do you simply have no self-control. I would guess it’s the later.
You don’t have much of anything positive as far as I’ve seen.
And yes I contribute to my retirement monthly, how about you? That has to do with the self-control and maturity of putting off immediate self-gratification, again something I’m guessing you lack and don’t even comprehend what I’m talking about.
And what has that got to do with the killing of little children.
Boxlicker
You chose your nic…you can change it. YOU broke your word to me not to “mutilate” my nic.
Really I think it’s childish of you to pretend to care about a made up name.
The abortion industry relies on a number of pharmaceutical companies to thrive (as well as the complacency of Republicans such as yourself).
Most if not all 401k’s invest in pharmaceutical stocks that in turn support the abortion industry worldwide.
Don’t you work for the pharmaceutical industry Boxlick?
KansasNative
You can not win by trying your best to make enemies for yourself.
I suggest to you that Boxlock is more often on the conservative side than not.
Do not push people off the fence, unless you know where they will land, after they fall.
That picture is not very realistic, at the time the Declaration was signed, they were all fugitives, and they snuck in one by one when possible, over several days to sign it. It just isn’t the way it went down.
Our founding fathers were bootleggers, tax evaders, and I LOVE IT! They were anti establishment to the bone.
As far as all the talk about God, Jefferson always referred to a creater, and to God, but himself wasn’t a Christian believing person. He was a diest, meaning he believed in the general idea that their must be a God. He studied Christ, and felt the teachings of Christ were good and positive, but never bought into the whole idea of the trilogy, Christ was God etc… He also studied the Koran, Hindi, Budah. He was a bit of a religion scholar so to speak. Benjamin Franklin, who had a strong propensity to woo the ladies, and who was quite fond of the drink, stripped as much of the God stuff out of our nations historical documents as he could get away with. They could barely get him to return to the colonies from France, the women and the wine there were too good.
I say none of this to bash our country, and as a matter of fact, I LOVE my country because of these facts. I happen to believe in the Trilogy, and study the teachings of Christ, but if you want to compare our founding fathers to anyone in modern history, the closest match you would ever find is Timothy McVeigh. Timothy McVeigh wasn’t going to sit around and be numbed by 500 channels of mind numbing TV, the internet, or a life of leisure. He saw the expansion of our federal government’s powers and he f ing blew up a building over it. The problem is that he didn’t have the same ammount of brains as he had balls, and he killed a bunch of kids. IDIOT! in that regard.
What we have today in this country is a rise in the philisophy of Hamilton. Hamilton was fought tooth and nail by all of the other founding fathers. He stood for strong oppressive over powering government with extreme police powers, and was aginst the bill of rights. He formed the basic principles of our economy to this day, of strong corporate influence and control over the political process.
We have never been a country founded on Christian beliefs, it’s all a lie! As a Christian I must say thank GOD! for that fact. I don’t want any religious dogma to influence my government. I don’t want regigious principles that aren’t my own to influence my life, nor do I want my beliefs forced on anyone else. It’s unAmerican.
I agree Linda, I’m also inspired by the ones with true compassion, selflessness, and honest concern for their fellow beings who don’t feel the need to convince anyone or wear their values on their sleeve for the world to see.
Hats off to SEMPERFIGUY, who ROCKS here on this blog.
And happy 4th to all! Here’s to yall’s and yalls’ youngins’ anatomical compleatness on the 5th!
The person who posted about the religious right not wanting to “really” end abortion, you are right, they could have done so in the past, and didn’t!
Power is corrupting, regardless of where it comes from. The Rallycry about abortion is just too powerful to give up, it is too big of a money maker! The same goes for the war on drugs, they could stop 99 % of drug trafficing, but then an entire anti drug bureaucracy would collapse.
They could end the welfare state, but then an entire anti poverty bureaucracy would collapse. By the way, all we have to do to end it is stop feeding the poor as an organized goverment. Take away the option, and only a tiny select few would be without. Ever seen a person with a vision card (food stamps) plant a garden, or raise rabbits for meat? NOPE! If your going to give them anything, give them a free fishing and hunting licence. You can’t starve here. It’s impossible!
I bet you lefties who are pro abortion can’t stand to hear about all that, but it’s true!
KansasNative,
You are quite right, I really don’t care that you are so infantile that you must profane my nic to feel equal. If someone I respected was doing so that might bother me. As for you, every time you do so it simply reminds me I am getting to you, and that you have no other way to compensate. You are impotent, but then I’m not the first to realize that I bet, ha.
You have got to be kidding. You are so naive to think that investing in my and my families future, where a small portion might be going into a pharmaceutical company, is promoting abortion. That is laughable, and ignorant on your part.
What, are you advocating we do away with pharmaceutical companies, which have increased the life expectancy of people by approx. double? What an ignoramus.
BOXLIAR SPEWS >>>>
“Mark 18-2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Ummm YOOO HOOO There ain’t no Mark 18 dimwit!!
SemperFi — I was with you, until you give McVeigh ANY kind of credibility — He was a total Scum from the bottom of America’s Scum Pond!! TOTAL idiot garbage…. He followed the friggin “Turner Diaries” FAKE as they were…. McVeigh wasnt anything but an Anarchist!!
KansasNative
Actually, it is next to impossible to pass a Constitutional Amendment. This is as it should be.
You, again, have a weird need to attack your friends, rather than attacking your true enemies.
Tell me, just exactly how will your prolife cause be helped by the impoverishment of the prolife movement?
There is a field of investment called “Ethical Investing” but it is, sadly, dominated more by the left than by the right.
There are plenty of invesments that avoid tobacco, or alcohol, or pornography, or abortion, or defense contractors. Take your pick. However, they are more “feel good” than anything else. They do not accomplish anything.
If you really want to get the attention of a corporation that you are mad at, BUY stock in that company, propose resolutions at Shareholder Meetings, and make some positive changes.
That you seem to have taken a vow of poverty, for yourself, does not advance the ball, at all, for the benefit of your cause.
Moreover, it is my experience, and my studied opinion, that radical prolife advocates have actually hurt their cause, in many ways.
Beautiful pictures of babies in the womb would go much further than the grotesque and vile pictures that the radicals want to rub in our faces.
Legislation outlawing late term abortions would be supported by the populations of every state. Even now, the state of New York has tougher abortion laws than Kansas?
Why is that? Because the “No exceptions, No Compromise” radicals made it impossible to get much of anything done, in Kansas, when we had the chane.
Tighter restrictions would have cut back on the money that Tiller puts into politics. In any true “war” you concentrate on the destruction of the ability of your enemy to make war. Radical prolifers, in Kansas, often make that impossible.
On the national stage, a simple resolution telling the Courts that they have NO jurisdiction, over the abortion question, is all it would really take, to reverse Roe V. Wade and Doe V. Bolton.
Yes, I can back that up. Read the Constitution. Congress has the right to limit the jurisdiction of the Court, period!
Anyway, radical prolifers will not allow much of anything other than a pure “win” for their side, a “Human Life Amendment” with NO compromises, NO exceptions.
There is absolutely nothing wrong or immoral about doing the best you can, in a given situation.
Just as a General must sacrifice some lives, to save others, so too should sincere prolife advocates.
However, the zealots of the prolife movement seem to have their egos involved, and they do not study history.
Lincoln did NOT “free all the slaves” — Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation only applied to rebel states, not the loyal border states.
There is nothing evil or wrong or immoral about “playing politics” with an issue.
Only when the radicals on the prolife side, such as YOU NativeKansan, are willing to swallow your pride, and learn to treat the abortion issue like EVERY OTHER political issue, will you make much progress.
Declaring the whole world your enemy will only guarantee your defeat.
How about going to the Libertarians, when you want to cut off government funding?
How about going to the gay rights groups, when abortionists start targeting babies with the “gay gene”?
How about going to the committed “prochoicers” that are still uncomfortable with late term abortions, for restrictions in that area?
You have no permanent enemies and no permanent friends. That is the way politics is played.
If you do not wish to play politics?
You will continue to fail.
But, you can feel proud of the PURITY of your failure!
(PS, to the rest of the bloggers, I know this is not an abortion thread, per se, but — I am proud of my country and I am frustrated with those who will not learn how to work within the system, to change things. That is what makes us great, that we have system that forces political compromises, and that helps to save us from even more bloodshed.)
BlueJay
Posted July 4, 2008 at 12:37 pm | Permalink
I’ve earned by birthright my capacity to criticize and expect better of my country. There IS no greater love of country.
““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`
BJ was born with entitlements!
Yes BJ, by birthright you had the right to burn that American flag!
How proud your son must be to have watched such a sight.
My family was here before that flag was sewn max.
I owe them better than to blindly wave it.
My son is taught to fight Max.
Government is not his enemy.He is part of that government. The monied few are his enemy.
You are his enemy.
Rebellion is the American nature. I rebel and I teach my son to rebel against being enslaved for the wealth of others.
In 1776 Max? YOU would have fought for the Crown.
Some would be willing to “wave the flag” — if only we would pay them more in hand outs.
There is a word for such people, who have no faith or pride in ideals:
MERCENARY!
There was that woman who said “yes” when asked if she would sleep with a stranger, for $1 Million.
She was then asked, “Would you do it for $100.00??
“No, I am not a whore” she responded.
“Madam” said the gentleman, “We have already established what you ARE, now we are only dickering over price!”
#
Chas
Posted July 4, 2008 at 11:44 pm | Permalink
BOXLIAR SPEWS >>>>
“Mark 18-2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Ummm YOOO HOOO There ain’t no Mark 18 dimwit!!
————————–
The Minister of Intolerance, Brother Chas shows lack of understanding and name calls.
Of course, he was referring to the Book of Matthew.
It’s an honest mistake Brother Chas, more than I can say for your toleration of others.
Your actions are deliberate and filled with contemptible spite.
Excuse me, but not a single person who signed the Declaration of Independence was poor.
In fact, they were rather wealthy.
Get your facts straight!
Our country started due to a tax revolt.
The “rebels” on this Blog just want more free stuff, that they do not want to work for or earn for themselves.
Whore?
That’s a gender perjorative term paulie.
YOU are a shill. What that is is a whore without any defamations on anyone but you.
If you refuse to work towards the wealth of others — you guarantee poverty for yourself.
Entitled not from what you have done yourself, but for what others have done for you.
Hmmmmm….
I wonder who’s shoulders your kids and grandkids will stand on.
BJ
Very good, I did not bring up YOUR name, when I used the term “Whore” — yet you still realize that it can be used againts YOU very aptly!
Bravo for your reading comprehension, you are not quite as dumb as I thought.
However, since I gather that you are male, I do not see how you can call me sexist for using the term against YOU! lol
A great point of contention in the Continental Congress on the debate as to independence was slavery.
The ownership of people and their labor by the rich?
It should be noted, Independence and “freedom” was only won when those who favored REAL freedom gave in to those who owned other human beings.
Warped words of wisdom prevail again from the left.
Sesame Street has corrupted America.
I am not an inherent bigot as you are Mr Paul F Rosell.
Obama called BJ a deadbeat, in so many words.
Even liberal democrats do not think much of people who refuse to provide insurance for their kids.
Health insurance for a minor child should cost less than a computer and internet access.
Besides, if the lazy bumb would spend the time WORKING, that he spends crying here, he would have more than enough money.
He is a miserable, unhappy, spiteful and envious man. He thinks he is the only one to every endure hardship, the only one to ever have a jerk for a boss, the only one to ever have to struggle in life.
Obama said he would “garnish” the wages of irresponsible people like BJ, who refuse to do the right thing, on their own.
That WILL be funny, if it happens!
“It should be noted, Independence and “freedom” was only won when those who favored REAL freedom gave in to those who owned other human beings.”
And so it still is, BlueJay… :-(
Have you ever heard of the term “commonwealth” Paulie?
My ancestors did. They came here for it. They worked toward it. SOME of them were monied. Most were not.
BlueJay
Posted July 4, 2008 at 12:37 pm | Permalink
With a name like “Grobnik” Max?
What stake does your family have in this country?
Two generations? Maybe three?
======================================================================
Hmmm…
Ethnic cleansing JR? You discriminate based on someone’s name?
Another Liberal Bigot.
Immigration is a bad thing for JR/BJ. More corrupted blood coming from outside the USA. Better to keep the blue blood Lib elitists in charge of things here.
The more generations your family has been in the USA somehow “entitles” you to more rights then others?
Where is that in the Constitution JR?
“Do not make the perfect the enemy of the good”
America is a work in progress, and always has been.
Every civilization on Earth has had to deal with slavery. America is a country that abolished slavery on its own, without being forced to do so by an outside power.
It was not possible to fight slavery and fight the British at the same time. Our founders did what was possible, and they did it very well.
Got news for ya JR.
Each generation must stand on its own two feet.
You can’t take credit for what your ancient family members did, any more so then your son can take the blame for what you didn’t do.
What have you done to support yourself and others lately?
BJ
Your definition of “commonwealth” is like that of Karl Marx.
By the way, Marx let his kid die of starvation, while he wrote his stupid book.
“birds of a feather”
BJ, perched on his royal lazy ass, sitting high and mighty like.
Saving the world yet BJ?
Since you are a Socialist, you really should be working harder to support others, instead of just holding your hand out waiting for others to support YOU.
I am guessing that most of BJ/JR’s relatives can’t stand to be around him.
He is probably as charming around them, as he is here on the Blog.
I often wonder how much progress we lost due to those lost years of the Civil War, if Slavery had been abolished at the very beginning… in the COTUS… as it should have been….
At least slaves in the ancient roman empire had the possibility of working for their freedom… not so here…. not to mention that slaves in ancient rome came from MANY different ethnic/racial backgrounds… not just one race… and they had legal rights as well…
Cant say that about slavery here… :-(
I always found it somewhat difficult to read the Letter to Philemon, where the Apostle Paul encourages the run-away slave to RETURN to his master, and accept his “role”
Cry victory again when I have embarrassed you Mr Rosell?
I turned a simple water hose on you and you ran like hell.
And you are so LOUD here lately. Why is that?
I know.
It is because you are afraid.
It is because paper shufflers like you are going to be soon brought to account for what you have done.
You make nothing except money for your masters.
You ARE nothing more than your rhetoric here.
All wind and smoke.
You are about to be blown away. And it is WELL past time.
“America is a work in progress, and always has been.”
As should be the Constitution — a Living document… a document in progress, along with the Nation in progress…
Like the Bible is a living document.
You just change the meaning whenever you feel like it.
What FUN!
The reactionary little toady Max and his master paulie.
Let’s have at it.
” America is a country that abolished slavery on its own, without being forced to do so by an outside power.
It was not possible to fight slavery and fight the British at the same time. Our founders did what was possible, and they did it very well.”
Um no they failed VERY badly. The cost was many black slaves fleeing to fight for the Crown AND a civil war pushed down the road 80 years.
BJ gets all globally predictive about taking over the country again. (Can’t you just hear him huffing and puffing at his keyboard?)
Let’s see, late at night, 12 beers down for BJ, and he start’s his boasting threats again.
Can’t take care of his own kid, but he’ll take over the whole world by God!
LOL
Have at it ya self BJ.
Big Man of the blog, ain’t ya?
Waste of time here.
Uh oh “Max”
I mean James.
Paulie has deserted you. He does that.
Ok so I got paulie bugging out and James switching nics.
Next?
America was BORN on the shared sacrifice and endurance of people who had not a whole lot.
At the expense of people who did.
I know. My ancestors were on both sides of the deal.
I had a many times great grandfather called a traitor and driven from his land because he would not fight the Crown.
His son married the Great Aunt of a US President.
Let’s see what paulie and max have against that.
“14th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
http://www.nps.gov/archive/malu/documents/amend14.htm
“Max” is “JM” is James McCluer “Regular”
Told ya.
Max, please show where the Constitution has NOT been changed since its inception?? Huh??
It has been changed MANY times, for MANY reasons… It IS a living document… WHY do you want to make it a Dead one??
Nineteenth Amendment >>>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
My mother was nearly 11 years old when women FINALLY got the right to Vote… But, they CHANGED the Constitution, and won that right!!
Hallelujah!!! Its a living document!!
BlueJay
Posted July 5, 2008 at 1:47 am | Permalink
“Max” is “JM” is James McCluer “Regular”
Told ya.
========================================
You sure about that Jay?? ???
Check this out >>>>
http://www.master-max.net/max_new/Gallery3.htm
This was SO good, it begs re-posting!!
Thanks Agnatha!!!
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/07/tiller-following-law-isn%e2%80%99t-above-it/#comment-378127
So mote it be!!
Notice above how Chas makes a big deal, in fact going so far as calling me a LIAR, over mistakenly typing Mark instead of Matthew when quoting about the biblical value of children.
You make you own call, but does anyone question why that is his point of attack. Not attacking the subject, but a minor mistake of looking and typing ‘Mar’ instead of ‘Mat’ when both are next to each other in the text I was looking at. It shows what is important to him, a…uh, minister(?).
Actually there is no question of Chas being a minister, he claims to be one, but in truth he is the liar, and hypocrite and does not help but leads people away. Why, because he is so spiritually sick, and so hateful towards others he disagrees with.
No Chas…you are NO minister and everyone knows it. You do not have a church or congregation and if you ever had one they would have thrown you out.
Just for clarification here is what I was looking at when quoting above, all posted in my source side by side;
Mar 10: 13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” 16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
Mar 9: 33 And they came to Capernaum. And when he [Jesus] was in the house he asked them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had argued with one another about who was the greatest. 35 And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.” 36 And he took a child and put him in the midst of them, and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.”
Mat 18: 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Regular,
Thank you, I didn’t read down far enough to see your post before posting this morning but you are exactly right.
Both Mark (Mar) and Matthew (Mat) were quoted in my reference and I symply typed Mark after picking the verses from ‘Mat’ but reading the verses from ‘Mar’ a well.
Thank you.
BJ
You are a thug to turn a water hose on anyone, for the simple act of exercising 1st Amendment rights, and having opinions with which you do not agree.
However, once again, if you had behaved that way, towards me, I would have arrested you.
Therefore, it was not me that you abused in your thugish, twisted, childish and unAmerican assault.
Chas
As long as the Constitution is amended ONLY by the process dictated, in that document, and NOT by the Courts, I have no problem with Amendments.
BJ
At the time of the American Revolution, was the status of slavery, around the world?
American Indian tribes, at that time, held rival tribe members as slaves. The Carrib Indians actually held the children of rival tribes as livestock, for cannibalistic feasts.
African tribes were very involved in slavery, capturing and selling rival tribe members into slavery as a way to raise money and eliminated their enemies.
The “Slavic” nations got their name from the fact that the Vikings often raided those countries, and sold their captives to Arab slave traders.
Many of those Arab slave traders were ancestors of Barrack Husseing Obama.
BJ, never in your life, from what you have posted here, have you EVER exibited moral courage or stood against tryanny, in defense of the helpless.
“Me me me” is the only battle cry you seem capable of belching out.
You have no moral standing to attack the Founders on the slavery issue. They did the best that could be done, at the time.
Heh HEH
Paulie Rosell, Kansas Ranger.
Why didn’t you arrest your friends who recruited you to mug gay people in parks?
J R sings….
Have screed will travel reads the card of a man
Putting kids under cars figures into his plan…
I turned them in. That is all that I could do, under the law, since I did not witness the crime.
Oh, I also chewed them out and told them that I was going to the police.
You? I am guessing that you would have joined them.
After all, as a union thug you enjoyed thugish behavior, did you not?
Haven’t you squirted paint thinner on cars, BJ?
Haven’t you put nails on driveways, BJ?
A citizen can only perform a “citizen’s arrest” if that person witnesses the crime.
Of course, in the case of a fugitive, the crime is the act of not being in custody, so those people can be brought to justice by any citizen, at any time.
I have made dozens of citizen’s arrests.
I would have arrested you in a heart beat.
I still will, if I witness you in the act of a crime.
Make no mistake, squirting someone with a hose is a crime.
Vandalism, destruction of property, assault, battery? The nature of the charge would depend on the circumstances.
However, what you did was a crime, and I would have put you in jail for it.
“Many of those Arab slave traders were ancestors of Barrack Husseing Obama.”
I would like to see you back that one up, Rossell.
Specifically, not some “could have been – may have been” bull.
And learn to spell his name – Barack Hussein Obama will be the next President of the United States
BJ
I am, of course, free to take you to court, as well.
Pity you are such a loser, you do not even have the cash to pay court costs.
I served for several years on the Wichita Traffic Commission. I was appointed to that post AFTER I was falsely accused by thugs like you.
I was unanimously elected President of the Wichita Traffic Commission, by Democrats and Republicans alike, and was the last President to serve on that board, until the Wichita City Council abolished all advisory boards.
The local TV stations and the Wichita Eagle never once brought up the malicious lies that you bring up here, on this Blog, against me.
Poverty and failure serve you well, I guess.
For, when I decide to sue you for slander or liable, you won’t even be able to pay court costs, will you?
I will, of course, win my case, as I have proven to you, countless times, that you are spreading falsehoods against me.
By the way, you have admitted to driving while you were drunk. You have complained about your ticket and fine. You were convicted.
I was never even charged with a crime —
And you were convicted of DWI!
It seems to me, as far as public safety goes, you have proven yourself to be a danger to society.
“I have made dozens of citizen’s arrests.”
I call bullskit – dozens of citizen’s arrests? Dozens? Plural – at least 24?
I say back that one up, too.
“You have no moral standing to attack the Founders on the slavery issue. They did the best that could be done, at the time.”
SOME of them did.
Some of them did their worst and KEPT doing so for another 13 years, culminating in the abominable 3/5ths compromise WRITTEN into the Constitution.
Lots of people are ignorant of that little bit of American history not proud.
The Southern states were largely maintained on the backs of black slaves.
These were NOT to be treated as people of course. But they had to be treated as….something.
See? If they were not counted at all, the southern states would have had considerably less represented voice in government.
SO it was agreed that while slaves were not people and had no rights, they should be counted as 3/5ths of a person for purposes of determining the population of a state.
Yeah. They did the best they could.
We are not supposed to use the middle name Hussein are we?
So I often call him Husseing, because he is such a hustler.
“We are not supposed to use the middle name Hussein are we?”
Back up your BS, Rossell…….
“Many of those Arab slave traders were ancestors of Barrack Husseing Obama.”
I call bullsh*t on this one.
WS
I was night manager at a grocery store.
I testified in court countless times.
Mostly in shoplifting cases, but also a few purse snatching cases.
Yes, dozens is the proper term.
If you care to call me on the phone, I will give you the name of a current Sedgwick County Sherriffs Deputy, who worked with me before he got his badge, the name of a current Wichita PD officer, who knows of my past, and the names of a few other coworkers.
I also stopped a person from running off, in a hit and run accident, two different times.
I still have my court records, my witness subpoenes and such.
How much documentation do you require?
“I testified in court countless times.”
Testifying against someone is not a citizen’s arrest.
First, Obama isn’t Black, Obama is Arab.
By law, to be a “Negro” in this country, and obtain minority affirmative action status (That is the legal and academic term, not my term) you must be at least 12.5% African Negro.
Obama is half White.
Obama is probably only 6.25% African Negro.
Here is a liberal who agrees with me, on this much of my argument, Obama is more Arab than he is Black:
http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/42131?tstart=0
Well, ok, it is a post on Oprah’s Blog, so I can not be sure it is a liberal post, but — I would think Oprah would delete it, if she found it wrong or offensive.
I have been saying all along, Obama is:
50% White
44% Arab
6% Black
Why does this matter?
Let us be clear, I would vote for an Arab. I have voted for Arabs in the past.
I would vote for a Black person, if a Black person agreed with me on the issues and ran for office in my district.
“Group guilt” or “inherited guilt” seem to be the undercurrents, in much of these threads, lately.
We are, somehow, to feel “White Guilt” (Obama uses that term, in his book, so it MUST be politically correct, right) — anyway, some of you bloggers think we are to feel “White Guilt” due to slavery in America’s past.
Well, I am pointing out that EVERY culture has a slave tarnished past.
Black history is full of Black slave owners.
Black history is full of slave traders.
However, Arab history is, possibly, the MOST heavily connected to the slave trade.
In fact, under Moslem Sharia Law, those who do NOT submit, or convert to Islam, are to be taken as slaves.
Here is a good book, for some of the less informed:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374527970/qid=1124432035/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1?v=glance&s=books
“Islam’s Black Slaves”
Now, it is impossible to see how Obama could be over 40% Arab and NOT have slave traders in his past.
It is rather easy to see that Obama DID have slave OWNERS in his past.
Group guilt? White Guilt?
I am proud of my country.
Obama is 100% human and 100% an American citizen with the full rights of any citizen.
However, if Whites are to feel guilty, because of past slavery, is Obama not 50% White?
And, if this “original sin” of slavery, that we all seem to be born with, is to be taken seriously, the Arab history, involving slavery, is far, far worse than any other culture on Earth.
For Heaven’s sake, slavery STILL exists in many Arab and Islamic cultures, TODAY!
So, Obama carries at least as much “slave guilt” as me.
As previously stated, I think that guilt amounts to:
ZERO!
(For BOTH of us!!)
As I do not believe in White Guilt or slave guilt.
WS
I was a witness because I was the arresting citizen.
Quit splitting hairs and think this through, would you?
My subpoenas are evidence that I was involved.
Why else would I be called?
If the police witness the crime and do the arrest, they would not need me, in court.
Obama has made race an issue.
Therefore, it is fair to point out that we have had at least 5 previous Presidents, with more Black Heritage than Obama.
A Black historian makes that claim, in his book:
http://www.geocities.com/cureworks1/5blkpres.htm
I would also point out that Obama was NOT the first Black to be in charge of the Harvard Law Review.
Obama benefited from a change in the title of that post.
There was a previous Black Editor of the Harvard Law Review.
Obama likes to claim “First Black —” to everything he does.
First, he is not, legally, “Black” —
Second, he is not the “first” !
“Obama is probably only 6.25% African Negro.”
Prove it.
“I have been saying all along, Obama is:
50% White
44% Arab
6% Black
Why does this matter?”
It doesn’t.
Except to a racist and fear monger like you paulie.
Who even CONCERNS themselves with the numbers and statistics you shill here but a dedicated, studied, bigot?
He capitalizes “Black” and “White” folks.
I put him to you. And I leave him to you.
“BlueJay” asks –
“Why does this matter?”
It doesn’t.
Except to a racist and fear monger….”
Exactly.
“My subpoenas are evidence that I was involved.”
Being a witness and making a citizen’s arrest are not the same thing.
The Defense rests.
THAT is your “proof” Rossell?
That is ridiculous even for you.
By the way, Rossell, where did you get 44% Arab out of that?
Obama brings up race all the time.
Obama’s book is ABOUT race, is it not?
Obama mentions “White Guilt” in his book, and Obama admits that he takes advantage of “White Guilt” in his book.
How is it racist for me to simply repeat what I found on Oprah’s Blog, what a Black historian has said, and to show how Obama’s own words are false, when it concerns race?
(Obama was not the first Black person to head the Harvard Law Review. Why would he make a race-based claim that was not true?)
Why is it NOT racist, for Obama to talk about race?
And……….
“By the way, Rossell, where did you get 44% Arab out of that?”
WS
You lost.
You just claimed to be “defense” in “defense rests” — However, you were the one making the charge that I was not being honest.
That would make you the “prosecution” not the defense.
Also, I have the evidence to support my claims.
I also have witnesses but I will not post their names here.
As stated, I will do that, privately, if required by someone who is truly too stuborn to admit defeat.
“Why is it NOT racist, for Obama to talk about race?”
Talking about race does NOT make on a racist.
WS
Why don’t YOU research the Obama family tree?
I know that you are browser-challenged, but there is lots of information out there.
Exactly!
I am talking about race, and I am NOT a racist.
Just as Obama talks about race, and Obama is NOT a racist.
“As stated, I will do that, privately, if required by someone who is truly too stuborn to admit defeat.”
“Also, I have the evidence to support my claims.”
Nonsense – citizens are routinely asked to testify when they witness a crime – that does not mean that they made a citizen’s arrest.
And, Rossell, you are well known for being disingenuous.
Here is a great link on the subject of Obama’s slave trading Arab heritage:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/02/obama-arab-amer.html
“Franklin” feigns non-racism by whining –
“Why is it NOT racist, for Obama to talk about race?”
It’s not the topic that makes you a racist, it’s how you address the subject.
Obama’s discussion was a sensitive personal narrative of what it was like to grow up in a society that still practices racism in subtle ways. And how, as the offspring of an African father and a Caucasian mother he didn’t feel entirely white or entirely black but he did come to fell 100% American.
You, on the other hand, can’t pat yourself on the back often enough to look at us doe-eyed and take credit for not saying “mulatto” or “octaroon.” Your frequent cut-and-posts regarding Obama’s ethnicity uses the same old Jim Crow arguments of One-Drop laws.
And you know it, even if you don’t know better.
Just as each of us is responsible for our posts and not the posts of others, Obama is not responsible for what others say, what might or might not be his heritage. So Franklin, whatever you’ve discovered while researching is yours to share here, ours to scroll over, think about, question, disregard… What one says about another doesn’t make that true or untrue.
To me Obama’s heritage says nothing about who he is or how he will govern. If it says something different to you I’m sure you can take that opinion to the polls. We’ll all take our research, opinions, judgments to the polls this fall and cast our votes.
WS
LOL
You are truly funny in your twists and turns.
You call “BS” and I begin to give evidence to support my claims.
By no means have I exhausted the evidence or proof at my disposal.
It is called “building a case” and I can do that, if ever required.
If I proved ONE case of citizens arrest, it would be evidence to justify my claim that I have made dozens of such arrests.
But one proven arrest would not prove “dozens” would it?
So I am telling you that I can back it up, if I have to.
With documents and with witnesses.
Also, the police almost NEVER arrest a shoplifter based on their own observation, unless it is an off duty cop doing part-time security work.
So, if I am called to testify, it means that I made the original arrest.
Also, it is still a “citizens arrest” if I stop someone, take them to the office, and then let them go.
That did happen several times, as well.
Particularly with kids, if I knew the parents.
It is still an arrest.
However, I can prove that I made dozens of arrests, through witnesses and through court documents.
Now, lets quit boring the other bloggers.
My only point in bringing it up, at all, was to call BS to BJ, who repeatedly claims that he soaked me with a hose.
I would have arrested him, on the spot, had he done that to me.
Such an action would have ruined the flyers I might have been passing out at the time, perhaps damaged my clothing, perhaps damaged any electronic equipment, phones, watches, etc that I had on my person.
Besides, it is not legal to do that to someone, period, regardless of the damage.
He could have retreated inside of his house, but the police would then be called.
I would have attempted an arrest, on the spot.
Not having the authority to enter the home, I would have then called the cops, as the coward retreated.
Why don’t you call BS on BJ?
Or are you two “buddies” again?
Politics does make strange bed fellows.
Linda
Obama does not have the courage to be truly honest about his heritage.
That, of course, is part of my point.
Obama, also, takes political and social advantage of his “Black” heritage, which he overstates, while Obama covers up his Arab heritage.
Obama can not have it both ways.
Obama is more Arab than Black.
Obama admits that he takes advantage of “White Guilt” and he put that admission in writing.
My point is that Arabs should feel more guilty than Whites, about slavery, if any of us should feel guilty at all.
I followed that by saying that NONE OF US should feel guilty about past slavery.
(However, we should all feel some duty to fight slavery, where it still exists, primarily in Arab, Moslem, and African countries.)
It is just like Linda always says here…
It is just an opinion, who are you to say it is wrong just because it might be racist?
Opinions are never wrong…. *eye roll*
That’s nice, Franklin. Glad you’ve got your opinions worked out to your satisfaction. We should all strive to be well informed and use that to form our opinions.
“I know that you are browser-challenged, but there is lots of information out there.”
YOU made the claim, Rossell, that Obama is 44% Arab, not 46%, not 42% but 44%.
Since you have the number down to an exact figure, please provide some proof to back up your claim.
“Why don’t you call BS on BJ?”
For what?
“Or are you two “buddies” again?”
Nope.
Obama’s HONESTY is an issue, is it not?
If Obama does not tell the truth, in Obama’s own “auto-biography” — how can we trust ANYTHING Obama says?
http://kennethelamb.blogspot.com/2008/02/barak-obama-questions-about-ethnic.html
WS
Those figures were rounded up or down, of course.
It is hard, when dividing by muliples of 2, 4, 8, 16 etc to come up with round numbers.
I used a round number that I found on OPRAH’s Blog, for heaven’s sake.
Take your math problems up with Oprah.
“I used a round number that I found on OPRAH’s Blog, for heaven’s sake.”
So your information that Barack Obama is 44% Arab came from a BLOG post?
That is your proof?
Eh?
For those of you that want Rossell’s “source” here it is……………
“Obama, an Arab-American Liar?”
http://www.icallbs.net/blog/index.php/2008/02/17/obama-an-arab-american-liar/
And this is the justification by the so-call researcher, Kenneth E. Lamb.
“The question no one wants to answer – particularly Mr. Obama and his supporters, is, “Why do you think he has an Arabic name? Why does his father have an Arabic name? Why does every ancestor on his father’s side have an Arabic name?”
Obama’s father was a Muslim – he had a Muslim name.
But ask yourself this, if Barack Obama was an Arab, wouldn’t this be all over the news?
“Documentation of his actual ethnic background demonstrates Mr. Obama is not an “African-American” as defined in United States law. This research was initiated by a request from a daily news publication of international reputation in New York City.
The story then moves to documenting his father’s genealogy. This study indicates Sen. Obama is actually Arab-American. The significance of this is that “the soul and substance of Mr. Obama’s claim to fame” rest entirely on his being “the first” African-American to achieve whatever it is that Mr. Obama is claiming at the time. If Mr. Obama is not legally an African-American, then his claims collapse. While there may still be historic firsts, for example, being the first Arab-American to be the president of the Harvard Law Review, those claims are not the star-appeal of his entire political life, and the basis of his current celebrity star status. If he is not African-American, then he is not what has propelled him up the political ladder; he is not, as described by one journalist riding Mr. Obama’s campaign plane, what is currently capturing America’s “cult” attention.
The author includes a section that notes the double-standard Oprah Winfrey applied in her handling of Mr. Obama’s autobiographical fabrications vis a vis her reaction to much less in a book by another author she promoted. It calls upon her to explain her double-standards, and asks, reasonably under the circumstances, if her double-standards are racist.”
http://kennethelamb.blogspot.com/2008/02/barak-obama-questions-about-ethnic.html
Apparently, Rossell, you and Kenneth Lamb are the only two people in America that believe that Barack Obama is an Arab – American.
“Many will find these truths unsettling. I’m often asked, “But I thought his father was Kenyan. How could Mr. Obama not be African-American, how could his ethnic composition be so Arabic?”
The definitive clue to that answer is to look at his name, his father’s name, and the names of all his ancestors on his father’s side. They are all Arabic.
Researching his roots reveal that on his father’s side, he is descended from Arab slave traders. They operated under an extended grant from Queen Victoria, who gave them the right to continue the slave trade in exchange for helping the British defeat the Madhi Army in southern Sudan and the Upper Nile region. Funny how circular is history; now the British again face the Madhi Army, albeit this time Shiite, not Sunni, as in nineteenth century Sudan.
But telling America’s black community that while their ancestors were breaking the shackles of slavery, Mr. Obama’s ancestors were placing those shackles upon their wrists would hardly play as an Oprah Winfrey best-seller.”
http://kennethelamb.blogspot.com/2008/02/barak-obama-questions-about-ethnic.html
What you have, Rossell, is one right wing radio host’s OPINION that Obama is not African American.
That’s it – nothing else – nothing that even comes close to PROVING that Obama is 44% Arab.
If memory serves….
Paulie once said he would shoot Nathan’s dog?
He thinks no case could be made against that, but he THINKS he could arrest me for shooting at him, on MY property, with a water hose AFTER a warning?
You are the joke that keeps on giving paulie.
WS
And what, exactly, do YOU have, to prove that I am wrong?
Nobody is contesting the fact that Obama has strong Arab roots, in his family tree.
Also, there is no doubt that Obama lied, repeatedly, in his false “auto-biography” — nobody with any knowledge of the facts will deny that charge.
Also, there is no doubt that Obama has lied repeatedly, about his past and about his family, while on the campaign trail.
Again, WS, show me someone with any true credentials who is willing to state that Obama is not more Arab than Black, would you please?
………….. and the Hussein part of his name came about……….. from his grandfather…
“4. Hussein Onyango OBAMA was born about 1895 and died in 1979. Before settling down to work as a cook for missionaries in Nairobi he was a traveler. Recruited to fight for colonial power England in World War I, he visited Europe and India, and afterward lived for a time in Zanzibar, where he converted from Christianity to Islam, family members said. ”
………. who added the first name of “Hussein” when he converted from Christianity to Islam.
Not that my OPINION is proof of anything, but does Onyango Obama sound like an Arab name to you?
“And what, exactly, do YOU have, to prove that I am wrong?”
It doesn’t work that way, Rossell, you made the claim now you PROVE it.
“Nobody is contesting the fact that Obama has strong Arab roots, in his family tree.”
Who, besides you and Kenneth E. Lamb, is claiming that Obama has “strong Arab” roots?
“Franklin” spews –
Garden variety old school miscegenation claptrap.
Nothing more.
Clueless
It is perfectly legal to shoot a dangerous animal in self defense, anytime, anywhere.
I live only a few minutes walk from where a small girl was mauled by a pit bull.
My comments were in direct response to that event.
I have no doubt that Nathan’s dogs are well manored, well trained, and not prone to unprovoked violence.
However, as a legal standard, the law only says that I must feel threatened.
Upon that feeling, I can kill the dog.
That is the law.
Also, the event that YOU fantasize never happened.
Your account of the event also makes no sense.
Why would someone passing out political information even bother with a nasty, foul tempered fool like you? Had you told someone passing out political flyers to go away, I am pretty sure that anyone passing out flyers would do so.
That you are proud of the fact that you sprayed someone with your garden hose only goes to show what a juvenile, anti-social idiot you are, if it truly happened.
The fact that you did not go to jail for it only proves you did not do such a stupid thing to me.
If you had, you would have gone to jail.
Heh heh
When closeout times for summer stuff, I’m gonna get me one of those big super soakers and fill it up and keep it in the fridge.
Then during political season, anytime I answer the door I’ll make sure I’m armed! Good for religious nuts too!
Cassius Clay changed his name.
Lew Alcindor changed his name.
Doesn’t make ‘em “Arabs.”
Is it just ME or is paulie taking this incident, which DID happen, awfully personal?
Sorta like he was there?
WS
You are talking about a person only ONE STEP UP in the family tree.
So what?
What were HIS roots?
And, yes it matters.
Obama fraudulently gained admission to Harvard, under minority set aside rules.
Obama FALSELY claims to be the “First Black President of the Harvard Law Review” –wrong because Obama isn’t Black. Misleading because there was a prior Black EDITOR, and Obama benefited from the fact that the title was changed to President, from Editor.
Obama has lied repeatedly.
It can be proven on several fronts that Obama does not tell the truth.
Race and his heritage are just one of many areas in which Obama is not honest.
“It is perfectly legal to shoot a dangerous animal in self defense,”
Like I said, Republicans and religious whackaloons.
The true, intolerant, anti First Amendment face of the Democrat Party, on display here:
BJ, the thug!
“Again, WS, show me someone with any true credentials who is willing to state that Obama is not more Arab than Black, would you please?”
Your entire statement is based on a column by Kenneth E. Lamb, Rossell, and you quote him almost verbatim, right down to the exact percentage and the rounding of numbers.
What are Kenneth E. Lamb’s credentials to make the claim that Obama is 44% Arab?
Hint: Being a right wing radio talk show host does NOT make you an expert on genealogy.
“Race and his heritage are just one of many areas in which Obama is not honest.”
Sigh, provide your PROOF that Obama is 44% Arab, Rossell.
Not just your wild and crazy statements, actual PROOF. Not Kenneth E. Lamb, actual PROOF.
Damn.
An interesting little list I received about Obama and thought I’d pass on.
We are witnessing a political phenomenon with Barack Obama of rare
magnitude. His speeches have inspired millions and yet most of his
followers have no idea of what he stands for except platitudes of
‘Change’ or that he says he will be a ‘Uniter’. The power of speech
from a charismatic person truly can be a powerful thing.
ManyAmericans out there are feeling just like a surfer who might be ecstatic
and euphoric while riding a tidal wave. Reality, however,is what happens
when it hits shore.
Some of What Defines Barack Obama:
. He voted against banning partial birth abortion.
. He voted no on notifying parents of minors who get
out-of-state abortions.
. Supports affirmative action in Colleges and Government.
. In 2001 he questioned harsh penalties for drug dealing.
. Says he will deal with street level drug dealing as minimum
wage affair.
. Admitted marijuana and cocaine use in high school and in
college.
. His religious convictions are very murky.
. He is willing to meet with Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Kim Jung
Il and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
. Has said that one of his first goals after being elected would
be to have a conference with all Muslim nations.
. Opposed the Patriot Act.
. First bill he signed that was passed was campaign finance
reform.
. Voted no on prohibiting law suits against gun manufacturers.
. Supports universal health-care.
. Voted yes on providing habeas corpus for Guantanamo detainees.
. Supports granting driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants.
. Supports extending welfare to illegal immigrants.
. Voted yes on comprehensive immigration reform.
. Voted yes on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social
Security.
. Wants to make the minimum wage a ‘living wage.
. Voted with Democratic Party 96 percent of 251votes.
. Is a big believer in the separation of church and state.
. Opposed to any efforts to Privatize Social Security and
instead supports increasing the amount of tax paid.
. He voted no on repealing the Alternative Minimum Tax.
. He voted no on repealing the ‘Death’ Tax.
. He wants to raise the Capital Gains Tax.
. Has repeatedly said the surge in Iraq has not succeeded.
. He is ranked as the most liberal Senator in the Senate today
and that takes some doing.
“An interesting little list I received about Obama and thought I’d pass on.”
It has been “passed on” before, so what is your point?
Barack Obama is a liberal? Wow!
At least fifty percent of Americans describe themselves as “liberal” or “progressive.”
Are you saying that we liberals don’t deserve representation?
“Boxlock” cut-and-posted –
(a routine Republic Party talking points spam)
Fuggetaboutit that most people in America agree with Obama.
You can always find what you believe in from John Sidney McCain the Third (for Shrub’s 3rd term, regardless of how you believe in it, McC*nt agrees with you!
McCain’s Flip Flops (the definitive tally)
Torture
BEFORE
McCain 11/16/07: “One of the things that kept us going when I was in prison in North Vietnam was that we knew that if the situation were reversed, that we would not be doing to our captors what they were doing to us”
“I want to tell you. Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney all think it is O.K. They have one thing in common. They don’t understand the military and the culture of this nation. If they did, they could never condone such behavior.” [NY Times]
AFTER
McCain votes against a ban on CIA torture. [NY Times]
Special Interests
BEFORE
McCain: “I’m the only one special interests don’t give any money to.” [YouTube]
AFTER
McCain’s campaign manager and many key campaign officials are telecom lobbyists, who have given at least $765,000 to his campaign (and that’s just one special interest) [USA Today]
Campaign Finance Laws
BEFORE
McCain author of McCain Feingold amendment, limiting use of soft money in campaigns. [Wikipedia]
AFTER
3/21/08: McCain likely in violation of campaign finance laws. [WashPost]
Jerry Falwell
BEFORE
McCain 2/28/2000: “I am a pro-life, pro-family fiscal conservative, an advocate of a strong defense, and yet Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and a few Washington leaders of the pro-life movement call me an unacceptable presidential candidate. They distort my pro- life positions and smear the reputations of my supporters. Why? Because I don’t pander to them, because I don’t ascribe to their failed philosophy that money is our message.”
McCain 2/29/2000: calls Robertson and Falwell “agents of intolerance.” [IHT]
AFTER
McCain gives commencement speech at Falwell’s Liberty University, cozies up to Falwell. [ABC]
Iraq
BEFORE
McCain 9/29/02: “We’re not going to get into house-to-house fighting in Baghdad. We may have to take out buildings, but we’re not going to have a bloodletting of trading American bodies for Iraqi bodies.”
McCain 1/22/03: “But the point is that, one, we will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” [ThinkProgress]
AFTER
McCain: 1/4/07: “When I voted to support this war, I knew it was probably going to be long and hard and tough, and those that voted for it and thought that somehow it was going to be some kind of an easy task, then I’m sorry they were mistaken. Maybe they didn’t know what they were voting for.” [ThinkProgress]
Abortion
BEFORE
McCain 8/24/99: “But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations.” [WashPost]
AFTER
McCain 2/18/07: “I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned” [MSNBC]
Bush’s tax cuts
BEFORE
McCain 5/26/01: “I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief.” [McCain's Senate website]
AFTER
In 2006 McCain votes to extend Bush tax cuts [MediaMatters]
Ethanol [hat tip Carpetbagger]
BEFORE
McCain 11/03: “Ethanol is a product that would not exist if Congress didn’t create an artificial market for it. No one would be willing to buy it. Yet thanks to agricultural subsidies and ethanol producer subsidies, it is now a very big business – tens of billions of dollars that have enriched a handful of corporate interests – primarily one big corporation, ADM. Ethanol does nothing to reduce fuel consumption, nothing to increase our energy independence, nothing to improve air quality.” [CNN]
AFTER
McCain 8/06: “I support ethanol and I think it is a vital, a vital alternative energy source not only because of our dependency on foreign oil but its greenhouse gas reduction effects.” [CNN]
Gay Marriage [hat tip anon]
Well, just watch:
Confederate Flag [hat tip The Real McCain]
BEFORE
McCain 1/12/00: “Personally, I see the flag as symbol of heritage.”
AFTER
McCain 4/19/00: “I feared that if I answered honestly, I could not win the South Carolina primary. So I chose to compromise my principles.” [CNN]
Gun control
BEFORE
In 2001, McCain and Lieberman introduce legislation to regulate gun shows. [HuffPo]
AFTER
McCain 4/19/07: “I strongly support the Second Amendment and I believe the Second Amendment ought to be preserved, which means no gun control” [WashPost]
Moqtada al Sadr [hat tip Think Progress]
BEFORE
McCain week of 3/16/08: “His influence has been on the wane for a long time.” [CNN via Think Progress]
AFTER
4/1/08: “I said he was still major player and his influence is going to have to be reduced and gradually eliminated.” [CNN via Think Progress]
Housing Relief
BEFORE
March 2008: “It is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers.” [NY Times]
AFTER
4/11/08: “Let me make it clear, that in these challenging times, I am committed to using all the resources of this government and great nation to create opportunity and make sure that every deserving American has a good job and can achieve their American dream.” [NY Times
The Press and Hillary
BEFORE
"The media often overlooked how compassionately [Hillary Clinton] spoke to the concerns and dreams of millions of Americans.”
AFTER
“I did not [say that].”
[Think Progress]
The Estate Tax
BEFORE
“I am concerned that repeal of the estate tax would provide massive benefits solely to the wealthiest and highest-income taxpayers in the country. A Treasury Department study found that almost no estate tax has been paid by lower- and middle-income taxpayers. But taxes have been paid on the estates of people who were in the highest 20% of the income distribution at the time of their death. It found that 91% of all estate taxes are paid by the estates of people whose annual income exceeded $190,000 around the time of their death.”
AFTER
“Another of my disagreements with Senator Obama concerns the estate tax, which he proposes to increase to a top rate of 55 percent. The estate tax is one of the most unfair tax laws on the books, and the first step to reform is to keep it predictable and keep it low.”
[Matthew Yglesias]
Wiretaps
BEFORE
“There are some areas where the statutes don’t apply, such as in the surveillance of overseas communications. Where they do apply, however, I think that presidents have the obligation to obey and enforce laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president, no matter what the situation is.”
AFTER
McCain spokesman: “Neither the administration nor the telecoms need apologize for actions that most people, except for the A.C.L.U. and trial lawyers, understand were constitutional and appropriate in the wake of the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001,”
[NY Times]
Immigration Reform
#1
BEFORE
McCain introduces bill on immigration reform.
AFTER
January 30, 2008, when asked if he would vote for his own bill: “”No, I would not, because we know what the situation is today. The people want the borders secured first.”"
[MediaMatters]
#2
BEFORE
May 22, 2008: “[We must enact comprehensive immigration reform. We must make it a top agenda item if we don’t do it before, and we probably won’t, a little straight talk, as of January 2009."
AFTER
National Review: "Team McCain tells me the senator’s comments were poorly worded. There’s been no discussion within the campaign of altering their stance on illegal immigration, and as far as everyone on the campaign is concerned, the policy is still, ’secure the border first.’"
[Think Progress]
Offshore drilling
BEFORE
1999 campaign: McCain opposes offshore drilling
AFTER
McCain 6/15/08: “”There are areas off our coasts that should be open to exploration and exploitation, and I hope we can take the first step by lifting the moratoria.”
[MotherJones]
Social Security
BEFORE
McCain 11/28/04: “Without privatization, I don’t see how you can possibly, over time, make sure that young Americans are able to receive Social Security benefits.”
AFTER
McCain 6/12/08: “I’m not for, quote, privatizing Social Security. I never have been. I never will be.”
[Think Progress]
Hurricane Katrina investigations
BEFORE
2006: McCain opposes commission to study government’s response to Hurricane Katrina.
[LA Times]
AFTER
McCain 6/4/08: “I’ve supported every investigation and ways of finding out what caused the tragedy.”
[Think Progress]
It is truly sad that what started out as a wish for everyone to have a happy and enjoyable holiday, turned into this nasty, hate filled, mudslinging contest. I was so disgusted that I couldn’t get a quarter through it all. I am ashamed of you people, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I guess, since Rossell has not replied with his “evidence” that Barack Obama is 44% Arab, then he must not have any real evidence.
………………. as usual.
WS
Now I say “BULL” to you.
Show me where 50% of Americans call themselves liberal or “progressive” would you please?
“Now I say “BULL” to you.”
Still waiting for genealogical proof from you that Obama is 44% Arab.
mopar
I do agree that the discourse here is often rather disappointing.
However, such has been the case throughout our history.
I suggest you watch the “Revolution” series on the History Channel, and the “John Adams” series that was just on premium cable, forget which one.
There have always been those who are unable to debate, without taking personal shots.
There have always been zealots who thought that the end justified the means.
Today is no different.
Sorry, Rossell, I am going to follow your rulebook – PROVE me wrong…….
“There have always been zealots who thought that the end justified the means.”
And you and McCluer are the worst offenders, Rossell.
Heh I got another twist for PI paulie’s knickers…
At a fireworks tent last night, I SAW a guy approach the tent from outside, reach into the tent and grab a 60 dollar case of fireworks. He then casually walked back to the car that was waiting, lights off, by the road. He jumped in the passenger side of the car which sped away.
It all went down so slick I wasn’t sure I was seeing it!
I COULD have got the license number of the car.
But hey, they weren’t MY fireworks.
I guess paulie was thwarting evildoers elsewhere.
Or perhaps trying to get Senator Obama’s racial makeup down to the 1/16ths?
“The balance of party identification in the American electorate now favors the Democratic Party by a decidedly larger margin than in either of the two previous presidential election cycles.”
“Four years ago there were about as many Democrats (35%) as Republicans (33%) in the 12 states where the voting was closest in 2004, and the balance was similar in the 2000 election cycle. But so far in 2008, Democrats hold a substantial 38% to 27% identification advantage in these states.”
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/773/fewer-voters-identify-as-republicans
Linda
Not quite what WS claimed.
WS claims that over 50% of the population is either “liberal” or “progressive” — I say that claim is pure bull.
Heck, the gains that Democrats made, in the last Congressional elections, were almost ALL from running prolife, pro 2nd Amendment CONSERVATIVE Democrats for Congress.
WS just tossed out a number that he can not back up.
Well, we’ll see this fall, won’t we? I’m patient enough to wait.
Besides, Franklin, my link gives info and isn’t intended to prove or disprove anything. I found it interesting and shared.
“WS just tossed out a number that he can not back up.”
Do ya’ mean like 44%?
A number like that?
By the way, Rossell, your “back up” is a right wing AM radio talk show host from Pensacola, Florida that has zero genealogical credentials.
But, I will provide “back up” for my claim as soon as you provide back up for your claim that Obama is 44% Arab.
Still waiting, Rossell, still waiting…….
Rossell, Rossell, wake up, where is your link – one that doesn’t quote Lamb or his statistics – that PROVES Barack Obama is 44% Arab?
Come on, you made the claim, now back it up………..
BlueJay
Posted July 5, 2008 at 6:34 pm | Permalink
Heh I got another twist for PI paulie’s knickers…
At a fireworks tent last night, I SAW a guy approach the tent from outside, reach into the tent and grab a 60 dollar case of fireworks. He then casually walked back to the car that was waiting, lights off, by the road. He jumped in the passenger side of the car which sped away.
It all went down so slick I wasn’t sure I was seeing it!
I COULD have got the license number of the car.
But hey, they weren’t MY fireworks.
I guess paulie was thwarting evildoers elsewhere.
—————————————————————–
There’s personal responsibility for ya. Great patriot BJ stands by and watches a crime and DOES NOTHING!
Then he slams Paulie, for what?
WTF?
BJ, savin the world for all of us. Stepping out on a limb for nobody but himself.
Had BJ been around in 1776, he would have cowered beneath the tails of a Redcoat.
Links, Paul the Con, links, please……………..
Paul, oh Paul? Mr. Rossell? Rossell? Paul the Con?
Where is your proof?
Probaby a couple of Red blooded American Patriots, did they have a magnetic ribbon on their car?
“Stepping out on a limb for nobody but himself.”
Max said something I can use?
Your statement there Max, describes VERY well some of the men in the pic up top.
SOME of those men like Adams and Franklin and Jefferson were great visionaries on a venture to build something new.
Others? Well they didn’t like answering to the King because they themselves wanted to be Kings in their own little fiefs. They only joined the cause for independence when they were reassured they would get to keep their slavery and their money.
Paulie? Oh, Paulie? I guess Paulie is so ashamed of his “lack of proof smear campaign” that he can’t even show up to make his gratuitous insults and demands.
Tsk, tsk, can’t even face up to the fact that his “story” was just a rumor spread by a Limbaugh wannabe from Pensacola.
He said it was “fact” but it was really just a stinking turd that he pulled out of the ass of just another right wing radio talk show host.
Poor Paulie – shamed once again.
We’ll miss you Rossell. Well, not really, but it sounded good.
Well, there is no reason to be surprised.
Franklin reveals once again that there is no limit to his credulity when it comes to claims that he wants to be true because they validate his world view.
Kenneth E. Lamb. This guy.
http://www.kennethelamb.com/page2.htm
[FE]And he is so well respected and has such an extensive background as a journalist [/FE] that if you enter the name Kenneth Lamb on Google…the first thing you come across is a link the very dubious and laughable post Franklin links to. Mr. Lamb’s claim to national fame indeed.
Let’s look at Mr. Lamb’s post.
1) Lamb has documented nothing except innuendo. The basis for his claim is that the paternal side of Obama’s family have “Arab” names (therefore they must be Arab). Apparently, names are the only basis for Lamb’s calculations of 44%. It’s laughable on its face.
2) Look at the post Franklin links to, and you will note that most of the post is Lamb’s discussion (that’s putting it kindly, it is actually ranting) about Obama’s dishonestly based on the premise that his claim is true.
3) Both the “arabs” Lamb refers to and “African Blacks” are, in fact, people who reside in Africa. The intermarriage and mating arising from the fact of simple proximity makes absolute claims about “arab” versus “black” utterly laughable, as anyone who is even remotely familiar with the region and particularly northern sub-Saharan African would know. The fact of the matter is, the so called “black” status of people is and continues to be based on their degree of resemblance to dark skinned Africans, and the genetic and ethnic diversity of that continent, even among varied peoples that an American (whether “white” or “black”) would simply recognize as “black”. Both Barack Obama and his Kenyan family, including his biological father, would be so recognized, middle and last names aside.
4) Kenneth Lamb’s and Franklin’s claims are blatantly and virulently racist. The reason why it is virulently racist is that it assumes that the degree of a person’s “Arabness” verses “African blackness” can be easily quantified (and utterly absurd claim). It is also virulently racist because it presumes that anyone who makes a claim about their heritage needs to be able to calculate the percentate of their “race” or be proven a liar. And yet, I really don’t think the racism in and of itself is important to Franklin (in fact, I believe him when he says that he would vote and has voted for people of both obvious “Black” or “Arab” descent if they agree with him). Franklin’s basis is, in fact, agreement with him. However, he doesn’t stop there. If someone who is a “liberal democrat” is running for the presidency, then not only are they politically wrong, but any claim made about them that proves that they are dishonest liars must be true. Again, the very essence of being a bullsh*tting shill.
I thought this was worth reposting. This was Franklin’s original response to calls of bullsh*t.
“Here is a liberal who agrees with me, on this much of my argument, Obama is more Arab than he is Black:
http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/42131?tstart=0
“Well, ok, it is a post on Oprah’s Blog, so I can not be sure it is a liberal post (Agatha: I read it, it is not), but — I would think Oprah would delete it, if she found it wrong or offensive (Agnatha: Yes, I am sure that Oprah Winfrey micromanages her blog, so anything that is left in it must be something that she did not find wrong or offensive).
“I have been saying all along, Obama is:
50% White
44% Arab
6% Black”
Again, the claim that such a percentage can be so easily calculated based on names or for that matter anything is in and of itself outrageously racist. Secondly, note how Franklin moves from the presumption of “Oprah didn’t delete it so it must not be wrong” to “See? Like I said, this claim is true”.
And that is the extent of Franklin’s scholarship, and the level of evidence that he seems to think is really satisfactory.
Pathetic.
While any blogger is off finding something to substantiate their claims, they aren’t here. In some cases I find that a positive! The glass is still half full.
All opinions are as good and as useless as the next!
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