From a New York Times article today: “The military trainers who came to Guantanamo Bay in December 2002 based an entire interrogation class on a chart showing the effects of ‘coercive management techniques’ for possible use on prisoners, including ‘sleep deprivation,’ ‘prolonged constraint,’ and ‘exposure.’
“What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners.
“The recycled chart is the latest and most vivid evidence of the way Communist interrogation methods that the United States long described as torture became the basis for interrogations both by the military at the base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and by the Central Intelligence Agency.”
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58 Comments
Great, now we have sunk to the level of the Chinese.
What’s next, lessons taken from Genghis Khan and Hannibal Lector?
China is a Republican’s dream. Centralized government, control over the economy, weak labor unions, weak environmental regulation, hordes of cheap, unskilled labor, a strong military, no Bill of Rights. So why not borrow from their legal playbook as well? No habeus corpus and torture techniques.
Thanks to bush, the Chinese time honored methods have been vindicated. And, the logical conclusion is no serviceman was ever ‘tortured’ under the communist regime.
The repubs. promised unlimited chinese markets for American products. Instead we get unlimited imports and sell them next to nothing. It was a scam from the get go.
When will the media ever figure out that POW’s are given special protections under the geneva conventions.
Non-uniformed terrorists, who belong to no identifiable chain of command (rank structure), are not.
“Non-uniformed terrorists, who belong to no identifiable chain of command (rank structure), are not.”
Is that what you call civilians these days? One of the people imprisoned and tortured in Gitmo was hired by the Americans to guard fuel depots. He was rounded up because a neighbor didn’t care much for him. But why do you need torture and need to forgo trials for guilty people? The actions of your fascist leaders only prove that you are in the wrong.
“methods that the United States long described as torture”
Bush and McCain were against torture before they were for torture.
But I guess when it is done to civilians who don’t like us being in their country its OK. OOPS! We were against that too before we were for it.
Do you liberals approve of ANY interrogation techniques besides just hoping that asking a question will be answered?
If so, name some.
Whine more Brownlee…
I think your question was probably answered at Nuremburg. What techniques did we consider appropriate when OTHERS used them?
“Do you liberals approve of ANY interrogation techniques besides just hoping that asking a question will be answered?”
The techniques used in the past were quite effective. Torture never produces positive results. One of the inmates, Abu Zubaydah, who was tortured took credit for activities he never participated in and told of planned terrorist activities that he made up.
McCain, who was allegedly tortured, confessed that he was a war criminal and denounced America. Are you going to support a candidate that is a war criminal and denounced America or do you believe it was a false confession brought about by torture? No, you can’t, because you view torture as legitimate and you hate America and denounce it with your pro-fascist comments.
No matter the name given them they are human beings. One of the “do unto others…” as far as I’m concerned.
Oh Nathan,
If we thought torture produced honest answers, I’m sure there are members of this blog who would have used it on you a long time ago.
Oh Nathan,
If torture produced honest answers, I’m sure there are members of this blog who would have used it on you a long time ago. Torture isn’t a search for accurate intelligence, it’s all about humiliating those perceived to have humiliated the torturer.
I read that after McCain’s alleged torturer testified before McCain and others, McCain rushed down and embraced him like a long lost brother.
Who in their right mind would do that?
Jed,
Notice I did not use the word torture. I used the word interrogation techniques.
If the motive is to simply hurt the person it is not an interrogation.
I don’t think when others use “torture” on Americans to get false confessions actually believe the false confessions, they wanted those confessions to use for propaghanda.
Our interrogations have worked.
Do I think it always works? Probably not. You can’t simply dismiss it all together and say it NEVER works though.
“Our interrogations have worked.”
How do you know? On what factual basis, with proof, do you know that our torture of detainees has worked?
Phantom,
Source please?
WS Clark,
Why would I answer a question I believe to be loaded?
I don’t think we have “tortured” detainees.
WS Clark,
I might also ask how one can prove that some harsh interrogation techniques “NEVER” work?
“I might also ask how one can prove that some harsh interrogation techniques “NEVER” work?”
Wrong answer – you fail Debate 101 – go back to the beginning of the semester and start over.
You made the assertion that “Our interrogations have worked.” re” Chinese torture techniques.
Since your assertion was not accepted as fact by your debate opponents, the burden is on you to either prove your point or to concede that you were in error.
So, “On what factual basis, with proof, do you know that our torture of detainees has worked?”
“Why would I answer a question I believe to be loaded?”
You claim that every question is loaded, therefore you never ANSWER questions while DEMANDING that others answer your questions.
You’ll find the photo if you scroll down.
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mysticalmccain.htm
WS Clark,
I am answering questions all the time. Every now and then I find one, usually from you, that is loaded and point that out.
Hardly proof that I “never” answer questions.
Since when did you start caring about logic in a disucssion?
I retract my question.
And where have I demanded someone answer my question recently?
Do you like to exagerate much?
“And where have I demanded someone answer my question recently?”
Chas. Constantly. Virtually every day.
Phantom,
Where do find that this was his “alleged torturer?”
“Since when did you start caring about logic in a disucssion?”
Show me where I have NOT been logical – you may not agree with me, but illogical I am not.
I am not a liar, either, unlike your BFF McCluer.
WS Clark,
I ahve already apologized for that. I have not done that for awhile either.
Yet you introduce that here as evidence that I always demand people answer questions?
Ok… yeah right. I have demanded that Chas answer a question in the past.
Your point here?
“Yet you introduce that here as evidence that I always demand people answer questions?”
You’re just blowing smoke now, Price, deflecting and distorting.
You made a claim – I challenged that claim – now, back up your claim.
Easy, right?
Or you could just concede that you are wrong.
Interrogator, torturer, what’s in a name? He was the dude in charge of his interrogation, whether he carried out the alleged torture, or merely ordered it, what difference would it make to a sane person?
When did Nathan turn over this new leaf? I musta missed it. Which surely can happen, R.L. and all.
Of course, if you believe the guy, there never was any torture. Songbird was just called into his private office where they had long discussions about the war, and McCain would occassionally correct his pronunciation. Sounds plausible.
WS Clark,
I have pointed out to you on several occasions how you load questions.
When you do something that I see as not logical I will point it out in the future.
Everytime you call someone a name it is a logical fallacy as well.
Will you stop doing that since you claim now to care so much about being logical in a discussion?
Successful interogation:
After being periodically slapped around for “three or four days” by his captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, “O.K., I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.” -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
They bitch slapped him into corroborating?
Nathan,
“I don’t think when others use “torture” on Americans to get false confessions actually believe the false confessions, they wanted those confessions to use for propaghanda.”
Given that we’ve used such confessions for propaganda, and anything else they might have said is “classified,” how do you know that we’ve actually gained useful information with those “interrogation techniques”, ie torture. I’m sure those random civilians that got swept up by our boys are relieved to know that they weren’t tortured at Abu Graib.
“I have pointed out to you on several occasions how you load questions.”
No, I ask questions that you can’t or will not answer.
“When you do something that I see as not logical I will point it out in the future.”
Well, thank you Price, I’ll do the same for you.
“Everytime you call someone a name it is a logical fallacy as well.”
Really, so if I think that you are an idiot, how is that a logical fallacy?
“Will you stop doing that since you claim now to care so much about being logical in a discussion?”
Nope. If I think that you are a homophobic bigot, I will say so.
And the list goes on.
More successful interrogation – an admission of bombing civilians:
“Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral . . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner.” Saigon-UPI, June 4, 1969
He never would’ve broken his arms, had he assumed the propper ejection position with arms down. Guess Songbird thought he had wings.
Maybe we should be glad that the government copied the Chinese it could a have been Nazi’s or the Medieval Catholics, Iron Maidens, thumbscrews and the pear would certainly be interesting
Trial by fire, could be improvised into interrogation by fire.
Pro-war author Christopher Hitchens undergoes waterboarding. He concludes it’s torture. They videotaped the event so you can get an idea of the war crimes that America is doing on civilians.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808
The article merely states that the interrogation techniques for GITMO came from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used in Korea. It was neither against or for it, it just merely stated the facts. When it comes to war, there are things that our soldiers have had to go through. Our U.S. soldiers have been tortured not just mentally but physically. If you are really supporting our troops then you would understand that if you tell the enemy that our soldiers cannot capture them or use these interrogation techniques then you have set them up to fail. It is such a shame that our Congress has passed a law that allows the enemy to have rights to a better public defense that what our own soldiers are allowed. And now you want to tie their hands even more. You do not even understand that our soldiers have been tortured, killed and maimed just so that you can have the rights that you have. One of them, blogging. Your right to freedom of speech, to say what you feel and believe without the fear of you yourself being tortured or killed or even worse having it done to your family, which is what the Iraqis feared from Saddam.
Borg,
We used to try our enemies for war crimes when they tortured POW’s. Now our enemies know that we can’t do that any more, that our use of torture gets them a free pass.
Wow, old news sure travels fast. This is got to be the lamest attempt yet to smear the Administration and the military. The US Military High Command began very detailed studies of CHI COM interrogation and torture techniques almost as soon as the truce ending hostilities in Korea was signed. The reason was simple. The break rate of WWII prisoners, the rate of American GI’s who were prisoners of the Germans and Japanese who broke under torture and interrogation was less than 20%. Less than ten years later the rate was almost 100% for prisoners of the North Koreans and CHI COMS. A very alarmed US Military hoped to find a way to train and inoculate our troops against these methods so that they would not break and divulge secrets to the enemy. These torture and interrogation techniques have been known by the military for over fifty years. But the pigs in the media would have you believe that they just discovered them about the time club Gitmo opened.
Torture is, say, pouring water into your lungs until you wonder if you’re going to die (you might). Right? I guess not. Apparently, it’s not torture, we’re told, unless it’s “equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23373-2004Jun7.html
Are you offering anything remotely closer to sanity than that? You haven’t yet.
What is WRONG with you people!!??
YomPaine:
A grimly amusing (and dead-on) observation.
Chrisfrom,
I agree, we’ve known the Chinese Communist torture methods for about 55 years. The difference is that we’ve only employed them for about 5. Before Bushco, we drew the line at torture. So what is it now that differentiates us from our enemies?
WS Clark,
In an argument, there is something called the loaded question. Do you deny such a thing exists?
Also, the ad hominem is indeed a logical fallacy. There is hardly ever a time in our discussions where calling someone an idiot, bigot, or homophobe has anything to do with the subject.
Either you want to be logical in the discussions here or you don’t.
Seems to me like you don’t.
Just my observation, in a totally logical world, there is a tendency to forget the ethical points of the discussion. It’s quickly becoming ridiculous, and downright mean and cold hearted. But perhaps, that exactly IS the objective? To become less of a human and more of a unfeeling fighting killing machine?
I’m a tough guy, with a small weiner and no love from a woman…I love Dubya Bush and torture. Sorry, I’ll call it “interrogation techniques”. Both Bush and his rightful and justified actions and policies have made America feared and powerful. If the whole world wants to take us on…we can deliver. If some French fag has something to say about our methods, well we have ways of making him or anyone else shut up or start talking. You’ll do what we say cause we’re the Effing United States of America Inc.
-signed, douchebag, tough-guy Neo-Con dumb ass.
There’s a stoy on the internets about Christopher Hitchens subjectinghimself to waterboarding and declaring in toruture.
And that was after just a couple of minutes!
People don’t seeem to realize that John McCain laseted more than TWO HOURS! before he said, “I’ll tell you anything, make propaganda films, anything, if you promise to get me to a doctor.
They guy had just survived a jet fighter crash! Doen’t it occur to you that maybe, had you just swum away from an airplane crash, you might want to see a doctor?!
And yet McCain survived TWO FULL HOURS of torture before he decided to confess to war crimes.
He deserves credit for that.
He didn’t swim anywhere, a vietnamese citizen sway out with another guy paddling two bamboo poles over which they floated McCain to safety. McCain later gave the guy a ‘Senate decal’ worth a couple dollars, maybe.
He broke his arms ejecting, because he didn’t follow procedure.
We routinely withhold medical treatment to our al quida suspects, and I’m not talking about someone caught right after trying to bomb us.
Another innocent man freed from prison after serving 15 years of a life sentence.
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/19th_Dallas_County_inmate_freed_by_0703.html
If the neo-cons had their way this guy would have been tortured and never given a trial much less DNA testing which proved his innocence.
Can you build it?
Yes we can!
Obama’s served only one term in the senate?
Change you can believe in!
Obama’s had no executive experience?
Change you can believe in!
Obama went to Chicago UCC for 20 years and didn’t hear what Pastor Jeremiah Wright said?
Change you can believe in!
Obama associated with a known domestic terrorist, William Ayres?
Change you can believe in!
Obama is the most liberal senator in congress and is pretending to be a moderate now?
Change you can believe in!
Obama associated with and was mentored by avowed communists.
Change you can believe in!
Obama didn’t pass any of his own legislation when in the Illinois Senate or the US Senate and often voted only present when he didn’t want to reveal what he really stood for.
Change you can believe in!
The best thing Obama has going for him is his speaking ability and his “Rock Star” appeal.
Change you can believe in!
Are tickets available to here him speak or to go to his concert?
Change you can believe in!
Father Phlegler spoke at his church at UCC.
Change you can believe in!
Obama is glad that gas prices are going up?
Change you can believe in!
What concrete plan has Obama presented for what he would do after being elected?
Change you can believe in!
What concrete plan has Obama presented for what he would do after being elected?
Change you can believe in!
What concrete plan has Obama presented for what he would do after being elected?
Change you can believe in!
What concrete plan has Obama presented for what he would do after being elected?
Change you can believe in!
Why does Maggotpunkass think that conservatives wouldn’t be happy an innocent man is released? Ah well, who knows… who cares?
“Why does Maggotpunkass think that conservatives wouldn’t be happy an innocent man is released? Ah well, who knows… who cares?”
If you didn’t care then you wouldn’t have posed the question.
Hello, everybody. Just heared this this from Chinese world and searched it via google. One of the links directed me here.
A bit strange to find out how you fellows think about your army. Well, I don’t mean that’s an evil army. Not at all. Plus the army from every major country should be responsible for the task of protecting the civilians of its country. No wonder people from certain country would have a different view of their army from those of other countries.
At least during the period of WW2 days, american security agencies have set up co-operation with then ruling nationalist government. One of their estabilshmend was located in Chongqing, many then CCP members had to get through all “treatment” whihc was set to test their “physical endurance” until the moment they failed to keep their mouth sealed. I know this because it’s just so “famous” among many the likes, and as a result of that it’s now a tour site. Also, because my ancesters joined the CCP side, or as many american people may call Chinacom, and they along with their friends were acting, despite the fact many of them had already been put in these places.
All and all, over a million chinese soilders have been placed in Korea during 1950-1958. And many, though much less than the number of those positioned in Korea, was fighting as assisting services in Vietnam against GIs. Many of them brought back their personal account of how their Chinese, korean or vietnamnese comrades have been “well served” by american army. “Physical ordeal” is part of dishes, as cited from them.
As of many people who get information outside of American World, I find what they’ve done in Guam just ordinary as these people have done it cinsitantly, thouth still nasty. America is a great country, there is no doubt. And american people are also great which is well known here in China. But strangely, this country consists of people like most of you people replying here that care about people’s life, as well as those triger happiers eager to take high ground, conquer and torture “uncivilized ones”, and you both have the equal opportunity to perform your best in this system.
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Influenza…
nice post about this…..