After six months and many tax dollars, and legal wrangling that went all the way to the Kansas Supreme Court and back, the grand jury investigating Wichita abortion provider George Tiller dissolved Wednesday having found insufficient evidence to bring so much as a single indictment. Zip. Nada.
The grand jury, which had been forced to convene by citizen petition, said that the Tiller medical records it reviewed revealed some “questionable late-term abortions” with regard to whether they meet the state law’s requirement that continuing the pregnancy would cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function. But as the panel determined correctly, “the woman’s condition is the subject for a medical judgment, not a legal one”; if two independent physicians say the late-term abortion is necessary, the abortion is lawful, period.
So contrary to all the claims and rhetoric of pro-life activists, Tiller is following the law (provided the doctors are independent, which is the subject of another case), and there is no conspiracy by the Sedgwick County district attorney or Kansas attorney general keeping him “above the law.”
220 Comments
As the law school adage goes, “A Grand Jury can indict a ham sandwich.”
If there were any case — ANY case — against Tiller, they’d have brought Tiller to trial. That’s what a Grand Jury does. That’s what a Grand Jury is for.
Phill (the second “L” is for “liar) Kline and his sect of “Baby-Killer”-shouters started believing their own fantasies and a Grand Jury determined their contrived charges weren’t even worthy of an allegedly-delinquent ham sandwich.
But, but, but he is too guilty! It was stone walling on Tiller’s part, the Grand Jury couldn’t see the evidence they needed, all those evil activist judges didn’t do things right, there wasn’t enough time… whine, whine, whine
/sarcasm
And I am sure you have some PROOF for that stupidity, RWNB??? Yea, right…. :roll:
Read the record, Chas!
The schedules of flights from out of state of people who come to Tiller to kill babies!
End of the week.
You could look it up!
“the woman’s condition is the subject for a medical judgment, not a legal one”; if two independent physicians say the late-term abortion is necessary, the abortion is lawful, period.
Well let’s see, Tiller isn’t independent of each case, he has a vested interest in the patient.
So each case had two independent physicians for medical review?
Appears to me that the interpretation of the law was the butcher who had his had on the scale.
“They fly-in fat on Thursday, they fly out skinny on Saturday. Do the math.”
A friend of mine works at the airport!
Of course Tiller has an interest in each case… But the SECOND physician is independent of Tiller…. Ya cant spin that one, McDumbscheis… Tray another one??
RWNB — Your bogus claim does not constitute PROOF!! Idiot!!
LOL, your anti fellow travelers wrote that law… so… what’s the problem??
RWNB states >>>>
“A friend of mine works at the airport!”
Doing what?? Checking the men’s room for Wide Stances?? LOL
Chas
Posted June 30, 2008 at 3:01 am | Permalink
“I do not swear at posters”
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Chas
Posted July 3, 2008 at 7:16 am | Permalink
Of course Tiller has an interest in each case… But the SECOND physician is independent of Tiller…. Ya cant spin that one, McDumbscheis… Tray another one??
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Of course, we all know what the butchered word (in bold) that Chas means.
“Tiller isn’t above the law” takes on a new meaning today!! LOL!
We can expect a big apology today from the instigators of this legal action whose premise has been proven false?
It appears George Tiller followed Kansas law, carefully butchering the babies in the correct manner. The Eagle has found something to celebrate!
Justice has been served and an innocent doctor has been found doing a legal practice. Now can the anti-abortion terrorists pay back the taxpayers for this waste of funds?
The innocent doctor kills babies in a lawful manner. I am glad everyone is so happy! The mother gets rid of the baby which is likely moving about in her womb, the good doctor makes lots of money, the father is relieved of his potential obligations and we can all feel good because it is LEGAL!
DavidB & M P — you have to be kidding, right??
They are probably trying to find another way to impanel another Grand Jury even now….
:roll:
REGULAR — Has nothing, says nothing, but wastes bandwidth, as if he owns it… LOL
Deb, can you provide one example of when the good doctor has killed one baby? Will you start a grand jury investigation leveling charges of infanticide? This court trial has proven, once again, that you antis are nothing but liars.
RWB / aka regular RedWhiteNBlue
Posted July 3, 2008 at 7:08 am | Permalink
“They fly-in fat on Thursday, they fly out skinny on Saturday. Do the math.”
A friend of mine works at the airport!
What a lie you have no friends loser Jummy ….
I wonder what would happen if a group started a petition drive to convene a Grand Jury to investidate OR?
Where do I sign, Ben?? I’ve about had it with the ORW group… :-(
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Indie
Posted July 3, 2008 at 7:51 am | Permalink
RWB / aka regular RedWhiteNBlue
Posted July 3, 2008 at 7:08 am | Permalink
“They fly-in fat on Thursday, they fly out skinny on Saturday. Do the math.”
A friend of mine works at the airport!
What a lie you have no friends loser Jummy ….
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Must be one of those multi-nic’d progressive liberals complaining about me again.
Funny thing is, they wouldn’t know who to complain about if I didn’t use one nic.
Odd don’t you think, that the very people complain about me using multiple-nics, use multiple nics.
As always, I stand on my hind legs and just use the nic regular.
Hard for duh libs to deal with reality I know.
“Funny thing is, they wouldn’t know who to complain about if I didn’t use one nic.” [Regular]
One “nic” at a time, eh?? LOL
I’ll be first in line to sign that petition, Ben.
Dr. Norman Perrin (U. of Chicago) has a great book called, “Redaction Criticism” — Some of you here should look it up…
I believe Dr. Perrin is now deceased, but his book lives on…
OK PreD — You can jump in front of me in that line… I dont mind!! :-)
Maggotpunk, read the post. I referred to the baby as one whom the mother can feel MOVING ABOUT IN HER WOMB. If the abortion is after 18 weeks (Dr. Tiller specializes in late term abortions) then the mother does feel the little life which is about to be snuffed out, moving.
Rejoice Maggotpunk! Tiller can go on reducing the human race to a lower life form as our collective consciences are seared!
I wonder how much money has been spent by both sides in this ongoing war. What might be the impact if that money were donated to Gerard House and similar entities?
That would be interesting to find out, Ben…
“Rejoice Maggotpunk! Tiller can go on reducing the human race to a lower life form as our collective consciences are seared!”
Deb are you talking about GWB —–
Tiller hasn’t been judged by his Creator yet.
I’m ready to sign a petition to call a grand jury investigating OR for harassment.
We pro-choicers have been saying all along that Tiller is innocent, we’ve stood behind him, gotten to know him and how he operates, and he only has the woman’s best interest at heart.
There are few doctors who would take such lengths to defend women’s rights and provide a safe and legal service rather than the alternative clothes hanger in the back alley.
He is a hero.
Gosh, golly, RFL… Maybe with any luck, you can be there to watch!! :-)
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Political_mama
Posted July 3, 2008 at 8:41 am | Permalink
I’m ready to sign a petition to call a grand jury investigating OR for harassment.
We pro-choicers have been saying all along that Tiller is innocent, we’ve stood behind him, gotten to know him and how he operates, and he only has the woman’s best interest at heart.
There are few doctors who would take such lengths to defend women’s rights and provide a safe and legal service rather than the alternative clothes hanger in the back alley.
He is a hero.
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Or…
Being the only scrape fetus act in town, Tiller is making multiple millions of dollars.
Yeah, what a hero, a greedy hero.
PMama —- You just want to stop with harassment?? Throw in Slander, Libel, Stalking, maybe invasion of privacy, and possibly Criminal Trespass…. Maybe that would wake em up??
“Maggotpunk, read the post. I referred to the baby as one whom the mother can feel MOVING ABOUT IN HER WOMB.”
Only a fetus, not even a blastocyst? So anything under 20 months is acceptable. Well, that’s not a problem, most abortions occur before this time.
Naturally you being an anti you use dishonest emotional rhetoric. You are probably a Christian fundamentalist, that’s why you are so inherently dishonest.
“Being the only scrape fetus act in town, Tiller is making multiple millions of dollars.
Yeah, what a hero, a greedy hero.”
The antis are the ones making him rich. You guys oppose sex ed and contraception. You know, things that help prevent pregnancy. If it wasn’t for you guys Tiller might only be making hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably not enough to keep his clinic open.
Sad that so many celebrate such a tragedy. It must be awful for a woman who has chosen to have a late term abortion because her baby is malformed to hear so many others are joyously celebrating that her baby will be legally killed.
It breaks my heart at the insensitivity on BOTH sides of this issue.
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Maggotpunk
Posted July 3, 2008 at 8:48 am | Permalink
“Being the only scrape fetus act in town, Tiller is making multiple millions of dollars.
Yeah, what a hero, a greedy hero.”
The antis are the ones making him rich. You guys oppose sex ed and contraception. You know, things that help prevent pregnancy. If it wasn’t for you guys Tiller might only be making hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably not enough to keep his clinic open.
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So you admit that Tiller is a multi-millionaire leading all you suckers, I mean Libs down the primrose path of loyal brown nose worship monkeys.
“So you admit that Tiller is a multi-millionaire leading all you suckers, I mean Libs down the primrose path of loyal brown nose worship monkeys.”
Why would I deny Tiller is rich? You guys made him rich. Are you trying to win dumb post of the day?
M – P he cant have that award today… He has already had it too often so far this month… He has to allow one of his buddies to get it for today!! LOL :-)
Mary — It should not be a day of celebrating, except for in the fact that the Justice System works… As for the solution to the baby issue, a LOT of work is needed… lots of education for the young… education for those older women who are in a bad health situation, and a lot of other issues… I’m darned sure it isnt just the younger women who are involved in the late-term abortions… nor is it the younger ones who are predominantly involved in earlier term abortions…
Two of the most torn-apart females I know of personally who went through abortions, were both in early (40-42) forties… one a very SUDDEN widow… with three other kids… One, a very SUDDEN divorcee… hubby beat the crap out of her, and caused some internal bleeding (she did not WANT the abortion, but her health was BAD from the beating!!
Yea, many issues today… But for now, the Justice System does work…
I agree with your post, Chas…I just wish we could find a way to prevent all unwanted pregnancies so there isn’t so much need to disregard life and convince ourselves it’s about something other than what it is.
I too, know many women who would go back and do it differently if they had the chance.
I posted this on another thread, but I’m repeating it because I hope that Filmfan will see it:
Filmfan, You have my heartfelt compassion for the burden you bear. Seems everyone ignores you when you post about your abortion because it’s a hard subject for most to talk about when it’s personal, but I have much empathy for the pain you’ve endured in your life due to the circumstances you found yourself in.
I also enjoy your writing and unique way of expressing yourself.
Kansas, gateway to the Fourth Reich. Wichita, the new Auschwitz. All brought to you by te best legal system money can buy.
M-C – agreed. That is the reason for my comment above about Gerard House etc.
An honest DA could have gotten an indictment in this case. Foulston is either incompetent, or corrupt. Either way, it says much about the legal system in Kansas when these lib lawyers and judges refuse to enforce the law against their cronies.
George Tiller may be within the law. He may even provide a necessary service for some. I am sure he gets paid handsomely. I don;t see how anyone can define him as a hero. There seems to be some question about how medically necessary it was in some cases, but the Gradn jury rightly mnade the decision that if another independent doctor said so, it was a medical matter and not a legal one. Of course, the independence of his secondary signator is being questioned in another case. Only time will tell.
“Kansas, gateway to the Fourth Reich. Wichita, the new Auschwitz. All brought to you by te best legal system money can buy.”
So the Jews, homosexuals, etc. who were gassed and incinerated did it voluntarily? Kinda cheapens the whole Holocaust doesn’t it?
I too listen to Film Fan. It is a heartbreaking thing, and it is heartbreaking for me to see how the antis treat these women. The antis are absolutely horrible people to deal with.
This is a highly charged topic. I’m passionate about keeping those rights for FilmFan. I’m passionate about ending ABUSE of women in the first place. I’m passionate about keeping women from having to make that decision in the first place with prevention.
And I’m still telling you that there are women who choose life who regret it, or who should have had abortions as their children’s lives are miserable, either from lack of resources, or lack of love. Of course, you can’t look at ‘what if’.
I know many of the cons believe in forced sterilizations for certain women.
Rape is a horrible thing to go through, and its even worse when that rape results in a pregnancy. And then the emotional abuse that comes from those who want to guilt her about making that decision. It’s unacceptable and most cruel.
“George Tiller may be within the law. He may even provide a necessary service for some. I am sure he gets paid handsomely. I don;t see how anyone can define him as a hero.”
Christian terrorists have bombed and flooded his clinic, a Christian assassin tried to murder him, yet he still returns to work and provides a needed medical service. He stood up to terrorists, he’s a hero.
Many of my friends who are Pro-Life faithfully support Gerrard house and many other organizations that advocate for mothers and their children. It’s just part of the vocation to put their money with their mouth is.
I supported Choices Medical Clinic for years until they brought in “Rev” Joe Wright…when the evagelicals hijacked it, that was the end for me.
“Christian terrorists have bombed and flooded his clinic, a Christian assassin tried to murder him, yet he still returns to work and provides a needed medical service. He stood up to terrorists, he’s a hero.”
You have a right to consider him so. I have a right to consider him an opportunist making big bucks while pretending to be a hero, or made into a hero by those needing those services. Also perfectly within his rights.
He’s not a hero, Mag…anyone who can do what he does for a living and sleep at night is pretty sick in my book. It’s still questionable about who it was who bombed and vandelized his clinic…just ask anyone who worked the investigation. I think he’s a serial killer who has found a legal way to apply his trade. And he LOVES the national noteriety.
You know what we need Mary is a totally impartial clinic for women who are seeking an alternative to abortion. I think Planned Parenthood does that, but they just don’t have ‘houses’ for these women.
my issue with those houses is that they’re usually run by the extremists who want only to save the life of the baby.
I want a place that is totally independent of pushing hte woman one way or the other…who provides factual information and really teaches them how things are going to be and help them do what they need to do to be successful.
That includes mental health, services, perhaps job training and daycare.
“You have a right to consider him so. I have a right to consider him an opportunist making big bucks while pretending to be a hero, or made into a hero by those needing those services. Also perfectly within his rights.”
Doctors = opportunists in the anti’s handbook. Maybe someday some opportunist will have to save your life. Thankfully he or she spent many years in opportunist school to do so.
Well you can think of him that way, but if it weren’t for him Mary there’d be a whole lot more dead women and jailed women.
So for that I admire him.
There are options to abortion. There is RU-486, or the natural abortion god calls a miscarriage.
“He’s not a hero, Mag…anyone who can do what he does for a living and sleep at night is pretty sick in my book.”
I suppose he could have spent a life as a Catholic priest and spent his career hiding Nazi war criminals, hiding pedophiles and having daily rants about the Jew problem.
Doctors sleep quite well at night after a hard day of working to protect the lives and health of people throughout the world.
Speaking of rich: Comedian Rush L scores $400 million contract:
“Very rich people tend not to stint on transportation. For example, we drove to the house from the studio, Limbaugh at the wheel, in a black Maybach 57S, which runs around $450,000 fully loaded. He had half a dozen similar rides on his estate.
He also loves space. There are five homes — all of them his — on the property. The big house is 24,000 square feet. Limbaugh lives there with a cat. He’s been married three times but has no children.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06Limbaugh-t.html?ex=1372737600&en=eea9e36329fa8c81&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
Wow, someone actually responed to Filmfan besides me, too bad you can’t just empathize with her pain without having to make a polical point at her expense, P-mom.
I have to go to work now. It’s getting a little thick and deep around here.
Tiller isnt a hero because he performs abortions.
He’s a hero because he does not fold when persecuted by the christian taliban.
He’s stood up to every wingnut attack, and he continues to provide what is an obviously needed and desired service.
I’ve been hounded by the kansas taliban and subject to their relentless attacks. He’s been hounded a hundred times harder than I ever was, and he remains strong and stands up to these christian terrorists.
So yeah, ANYONE who stands up to terrorists and taliban type organizations to uphold a constitutionally protected right is a hero to me.
…and wasnt values boy’s weekly whine and unfounded libel oh so carefully timed today? When do you think he wrote that sleazy piece of lying trash? I bet he’s had it on the spike waiting for just such a day…
Ya gotta wonder what he knows about the WE management that they keep his joke of a screed coming week after week after week after week…
Maggotpunk, the Eagle is celebrating Tiller’s exoneration concerning LATE-term abortions. Check out A Child is Born with photographs by Lennart Nilsson. At 20 weeks in the womb even you should be able to see it is a baby.
You can check out the book from the library (Central, Comotara, Evergreen, Linwood, Westlink call # 612.63 NIL) It is in the PREGNANCY and CHILDBIRTH section.
or purchase it from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/
You can also view pictures at http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-20-weeks
“Doctors = opportunists in the anti’s handbook. Maybe someday some opportunist will have to save your life. Thankfully he or she spent many years in opportunist school to do so.”
First off, you can describe me as an anti if you wish. You can describe me however you want. My position on this has always been clearly stated. First trimester, abortion without question. second trimenster, only after much medical and legal review, third trimester–illegal except in the most extreme cases. That is it in a nutshell. Most most clear position is that once an unborn child reaches the point of having the brain waves we associate with life, the unborn child meets the requirements for Constituional protection. It is clearly human. It is clearly distinct from any othe human, and it is alive. Prior to that point, do what you will. Don;t give me bs about blastocysts, and a few cells, and the like. THe less you categorize people, the more you learn.
Second, I doubt he (Tiller) spend many years in opportunist school learning to do abortions. Like ti or not, he is ending life. And as i recall, doing abortions is only a small part of the doctor’s training, including ob-gyn specialists. But hey, if he is a hero to you, more power to you.
Here are some photos for you Deb:
http://www.aztlan.net/du_deformed_iraqi_babies.htm
Littlejohn, where did you get your medical, er opportunist degree to enable you to make medical decisions for others?
“You know what we need Mary is a totally impartial clinic for women who are seeking an alternative to abortion. I think Planned Parenthood does that, but they just don’t have ‘houses’ for these women”
And how much of Planned Parenthoods income comes from providing abortions? I don;t think they are a “totally impartial clinic”
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Maggotpunk
Posted July 3, 2008 at 9:44 am | Permalink
Littlejohn, where did you get your medical, er opportunist degree to enable you to make medical decisions for others?
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Where did you get your medical degree Dougie? :D
“Where did you get your medical degree Dougie?”
Do you see me making medical decisions for others dumbass?
The basic difference between the American holocaust and the German holocaust is that in America the child’s “mother” takes the child to the death camp. No, I don’t think it cheapens what happened in Germany to try and shut it down here.
Some day one can only hope that someone will force the citizens of Wichita to parade through Tiller’s death camp the way the Germans were forced to tour the ones in their country.
Dr Tiller provides a legal medical procedure to women who voluntarily seek it.
Attacking him is attacking the problem of untenable pregnancy at the wrong end of the equation.
Mary, thank you so much for your thoughts and support – I great appreciate it. I agree with your wise and astute observation about insensitivity. I’ve observed (and sometimes succumbed to) it – more than once.
May I please clarify one important point, however. I was not impregnated by rape. I was impregnated by my erstwhile rapist. I was so young and in love and naive and, frankly, idiotic, that I didn’t know the true definition of rape until I began counseling (at a Catholic college, no less) in 1989. This sorry state of affairs, while tragic, gives me a somewhat singular perspective.
Your statement about insensitivity is right on the mark, Mary.
I truly do not wish to start a fight, much less with an individual(s) of whom I remain fond, but….
Do we live solely by the intellect? Emotionality can be faulty; it can be warranted; it can be indictable; it can be propulsive. To wit…..
Four years ago, I observed a (truthful) picture – in utero – of a fetus of the same gestation that I carried in February 1975. An emotional reaction ensued. No hysteria or hatred ensued; suffice it to say, it was more powerful than the film of a first-trimester abortion I viewed in my high school religion class in early 1976. I did not picket clinics; I did not seek to affect other women’s lives. But I was in pain. Typically, I had no one to talk to. This was, like, real real bad. Thus, I had and still have no stomach for sick jokes about airports and fat/skinny chicks and barbecues and scrapin’ and all that s–t. Just kinda brings up a little bacon ‘n eggo this mornin’.
Where did I see this picture during that seminal summer of 2004? On whose website was it featured? Not Randall Terry’s masturbatorium, that’s for sure.
Dr. Tiller’s website. Shall anyone accuse him of being a liar?
I don’t expect a man to be a woman. I don’t expect anyone to be a carbon copy of myself. Let me close with this thought: Viewing that picture didn’t compel me to ask: “What is it? A zygote, a blastocyte, a baby, a fetus?”
I don’t have the moral authority to govern women’s lives. But I do have the right to judge my own. Emotionality plays a role; undeniably!
Jesus Christ! If we lived by intellect alone, especially in relationship matters, what kind of lives would we have? Oh well, I shall end on diplomatic terms: Superior intelligence, biting wit and caustic commentary serve their purpose, too. But it’s not always the whole truth, either.
One cannot divorce emotionality from this issue- not now, not ever.
“my issue with those houses is that they’re usually run by the extremists who want only to save the life of the baby.”
Thank goodness, that there’s a lot of “extremists” out there who want to save the life of the baby. I guess they aren’t so extreme if there is so darn many of them, huh?
Saving the life of the baby is in the best interest to the mother and to our culture. Mothers breaking immutable moral law by killing their children harms the Mothers who do the killing. Simply because it is legal doesn’t make the pain of breaking moral law go away.
Furthermore, mothers are the backbone of our culture and the more who think it is okay to kill their children the bigger the disaster Roe v. Wade becomes to all of us.
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farmgrrl lives in a state where whe claims that the a “christian taliban” is actively pursuing people with Taliban style tactics. Hmm, if I lived in country or state with what I labeled truly Taliban like activity, I would move.
If I was lying farmer, I would stay and continue to run my farm. What has ksfarmgrrl chosen to do in this situation?
Mary, thank you so much for your thoughts and support – I greatly appreciate it. I agree with your wise and astute observation about insensitivity. I’ve observed (and sometimes succumbed to) it – more than once.
May I please clarify one important point, however. I was not impregnated by rape. I was impregnated by my erstwhile rapist. I was so young and in love and naive and, frankly, idiotic, that I didn’t know the true definition of rape until I began counseling (at a Catholic college, no less) in 1989. This sorry state of affairs, while tragic, gives me a somewhat singular perspective.
Your statement about insensitivity is right on the mark, Mary.
I truly do not wish to start a fight, much less with an individual(s) of whom I remain fond, but….
Do we live solely by the intellect? Emotionality can be faulty; it can be warranted; it can be indictable; it can be propulsive. To wit…..
Four years ago, I observed a (truthful) picture – in utero – of a fetus of the same gestation that I carried in February 1975. An emotional reaction ensued. No hysteria or hatred ensued; suffice it to say, it was more powerful than the film of a first-trimester abortion I viewed in my high school religion class in early 1976. I did not picket clinics; I did not seek to affect other women’s lives. But I was in pain. Typically, I had no one to talk to. This was, like, real real bad. Thus, I had and still have no stomach for sick jokes about airports and fat/skinny chicks and barbecues and scrapin’ and all that s–t. Just kinda brings up a little bacon ‘n eggo this mornin’.
Where did I see this picture during that seminal summer of 2004? On whose website was it featured? Not Randall Terry’s masturbatorium, that’s for sure.
Dr. Tiller’s website. Shall anyone accuse him of being a liar?
I don’t expect a man to be a woman. I don’t expect anyone to be a carbon copy of myself. Let me close with this thought: Viewing that picture didn’t compel me to ask: “What is it? A zygote, a blastocyte, a baby, a fetus?”
I don’t have the moral authority to govern women’s lives. But I do have the right to judge my own. Emotionality plays a role; undeniably!
Jesus Christ! If we lived by intellect alone, especially in relationship matters, what kind of lives would we have? Oh well, I shall end on diplomatic terms: Superior intelligence, biting wit and caustic commentary serve their purpose, too. But it’s not always the whole truth, either.
One cannot divorce emotionality from this issue- not now, not ever.
Incidentally, Reihard Heydrich “stood up” to the resistance until they finally got to him. Was he a hero also?
ksfarmgrrl
how would you know if Castillo’s piece was “lying trash”? There have been books written documenting Sanger’s racist ideas.
Grand Illusions: The Legacy of Planned Parenthood by George Grant and Killer Angel: A Short Biography of Planned Parenthood also by Grant.
“breaking immutable moral law”
I’ll believe in immutable moral law when…
Those who profess it start practicing what they preach.
Or I hear a big booming voice from the sky.
Now you can work toward the first. I don’t think there’s much chance of the second.
Statistics say that MOST women who seek abortion do so for economic reasons. This is no different than how things operate in nature. If you want to rise above what is natural you MUST advocate for help for these women.
Let me define that help for you.
ALL of her medical care is free.
The baby is guaranteed medical care and food until it is 18 years old.
The mother is guaranteed that she will have assistance with day care.
That’s a good place to start. If you truly wish to limit abortion you will add to this list.
Tiller is the Devil……He is Ks legal baby KILLER.
I think the Religious Right had this case in the bag until they put up that billboard threatening the grand jury that “people are watching” and that members of the grand jury would face some type of retaliation in the community if they didn’t rule against Tiller. Public sentiment had never been more against Tiller, if not for the Religious Right. I think Judge Buchanan made one trip across town on Kellogg and sucked in hard when he saw that billboard and realized the destructive effect the Religious Right is having on the judicial system. This case fell off the radar fast after that billboard went up, and it became a foregone conclusion that due process (That’s in the Bill of Rights, btw.)was not going to be undermined by threats.
I remember seeing that billboard and knowing its intent and thinking: Who would put up with that if it was some “gangsta” making threats? No one would. So, why would we put up with that behavior from the Religious Right? Well, we won’t. And by trying to intimidate the grand jury the Religious Right ruined the best chance they’ve ever had at shutting Tiller down.
The Religious Right snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and they have no one to blame but themselves for this loss.
More than that, more moderate Pro-Life activists should be really angry at the actions of the fanatics. It’s time for moderates to step up and tell the nuts on both sides of the issues to go home and rant in their own living rooms.
So basically according to the antis- anyone who earns money is an opportunist.
Well doesn’t that provide the best argument for taxpayer funded abortions?
We wouldn’t want any of that capitalism at work here.
I wonder, when you go to your doctor and he gives you an antibiotic, do you call him an opportunists for making money on your misery?
Doubt it.
And I notice Deb didn’t say not ONE WORD about those photos of those horribly deformed children.
“Tiller is the Devil”
So all those prayer vigils to rid the city of Tiller have failed? God can’t beat the devil? Or maybe the blasphemous, self-proclaimed Christians are praying to a false god.
“Littlejohn, where did you get your medical, er opportunist degree to enable you to make medical decisions for others?”
I haven;t made any medical decisions for anybody, now have I. I have stated my opinion about a general surgical procedure that ends a life. I have given my opinion on when it should be allowed. On strictly Constitutional issues.I am not a lawyer or a Constitutional scholare either. Since you have many opinions about the legality or COnstittionality of many different things, perhaps you are a Constituional lawyer? Please enlighten us.
And we are other nation’s biggest baby killers. So I guess we’re about even, no?
So basically according to the antis- anyone who earns money is an opportunist.
*********************
I thought they said the “Gospel of Prosperity* means all their high morals are making them rich because they’re God’s righteous, favored ones. Being religious is the new opportunism, but do you think it’s really paying off for them?
So basically according to the antis- anyone who earns money is an opportunist.
*********************
I thought they said the “Gospel of Prosperity* means all their high morals are making them rich because they’re God’s righteous, favored ones. Being religious is the new opportunism, but do you think it’s really paying off for them?
Well, I wondered how long it would be before we saw “Godwin’s Law” showed up… Well, thanks to Herb, it has shown up now…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Geez, this gets old seeing this kind of CRAP, Herb… Demented dim wit
Well, I wondered how long it would be before we saw “Godwin’s Law” showed up… Well, thanks to Herb, it has shown up now…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Geez, this gets old seeing this kind of CRAP, Herb… Demented dim wit
I looked at the photos Maggotpunk. I sincerely hope this did not truly happen. But knowing the war frequently has evil results it certainly may be the case. I am horrified what these children suffered. I am horrified because I know the situation to be wrong just as I know abortion is wrong. Because we are created in God’s image God gave us laws against murder, rape and kidnapping, in each case requiring the life of the person who inflicted the crime.
Here is one photo for you to see
http://www.covenantnews.com/after-pre-abortion-ultrasound.htm
“I haven’t made any medical decisions for anybody”
Certainly you have. A person may need a life saving medical procedure due to a tubal pregnancy and you’ll deny it to her and happily see her die. So where did you get that medical degree?
“I looked at the photos Maggotpunk. I sincerely hope this did not truly happen.”
Those are live births in a country where abortion is illegal. Your “pro-life” President Bush Sr. covered the country with radioactive shells to kill the living and those not conceived yet.
You antis must sleep well at night dreaming of the day it happens in America where a woman goes through the pains of birth to see her child die on the birthing table of some horrific birth defect.
“A person may need a life saving medical procedure due to a tubal pregnancy and you’ll deny it to her and happily see her die. ”
Please post where I said or implied anything of the kind. Please.
Maggotpunk-
I’m waiting for you to post where I hold such an extreme position. Search all you want, you won;t find anything. Go ahead, take all day. I’ll be here waiting.
If – and this is a big fit – the anti-choice folks would put one tenth as much effort into comprehensive sex education as they do to trying to deny choice, the need for abortions would drop dramatically.
This is not an easy issue for sincere people on both sides, but the anti-choice guilt merchants don’t help their cause. They try to imply that Tiller gets a perverse thrill from “killing babies.” That is simply not the case.
Perhaps now that the Grand Jury in both OP, KS and here in Wichita have ruled, we can get past the overheated rhetoric and actually DO something about the issue of unwanted pregnancies.
“second trimenster, only after much medical and legal review, third trimester–illegal except in the most extreme cases.”
Restricting access to medical care costs lives. That’s why women have to travel thousands of miles to come here for a medical procedure. Those who can’t afford simply die and anti’s rejoice in another woman’s death.
“second trimenster, only after much medical and legal review, third trimester–illegal except in the most extreme cases.” =
”
“A person may need a life saving medical procedure due to a tubal pregnancy and you’ll deny it to her and happily see her die. ”
Yeah, sure. Try reaching some more. Keep searching. Maybe you will find something.
Littlejohn, while you have a person’s medical decision being fought by attorneys the fetus grows, the procedure becomes more dangerous and maybe, just maybe, they’ll be allowed to operate in time unless your anti-choice attorney decides to delay further. You and your lawyers shouldn’t be deciding someone’s medical choices.
Even the Catholic allows for the termination of ectopic pregnancies. (In 1982, one of my friends suffered this type of pregnancy; the Catholic hospital in Hays saved her life by ending the pregnancy.)
Accusing LittleJohn of being to the far right of the Pope probably isn’t accurate.
Let us cast blame where it is manifest: “Deb” kindly and delicately shared with us a certain unspeakable image. Is this the face of abortion? It certainly is not the face of first-trimester abortions. Dr. Tiller does not perform decapitations – criminals do so. Isn’t this picture a depiction of a victim of civil war?
I’d say “Deb” deserves more scorn than does LittleJohn. Just so we’re clear here, Deb: Do you know how much pain you may have caused to some hurting soul out there? I believe – devoutly – in forgiveness and peace. Yet, let us have it clearly: If that had been the face of my own abortion – do you think I’d be able to realize this peace? Name me one woman (or her male partner) who would consent to their newborn’s decapitation. If you can’t prove it, I’m calling you disingenuous.
Shame on you – and anyone else who lies for the sake of “life.”
Crickets chirping. Maggotpunk makes a false claim and can;t back it up. Now he tries to rationalize it with a logical argument. Again, please post where I said or even implied anything of the sort you imagined. chirping and chirping and chirping.
By the way, what anit-choice attorney? And what anti-choice attorney is deciding medical care? I did say that second tri-mester abortions should have medical review for necessity and legal review for proper application of the law. Easy enough to do. I could even compromise and let the legal reviw be post abortion. With the doctor performing the same, and a second, independent doctor justifying it medically and then reviewed by the board of healing arts, or some such body. If found to be out of compliance, they would lose their priviledges.
Please post where I made any referenece to any sort of position that “you’ll deny it to her and happily see her die”
Littlejohn’s dream:
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/9/1/6/5/p91656_index.html
Restrictions to medical care increase poverty, infant mortality, and child abuse.
I’ll point out to Deb that those kind of birth defects happen in the absence of radioactive material. They happen right here in the US. 50% of babies are miscarried before the mother even knows she’s pregnant, usually due to some defect. I call that God’s abortion.
But as you can plainly see, many babies are able to live with the support of the mother en-utero, but that doesn’t mean they SHOULD, or that they will live for very long after they are cut off from their host.
Some women have molar pregnancies where there isn’t even a fetus growing in there, but the mother’s body continues to act as if there is.
Deb, there are a lot of grotesque things that happen in nature. Without medical care, these things can be horrible. An abortion IS medical care to correct a mistake…just as a hysterectomy after birth to prevent a mother from bleeding to death is one of those necessities.
You don’t want to ban doctors from saving women’s lives do you? Of course not. So why would you insist on making it illegal for a woman to choose whether or not it is right for her baby, for her, to get an abortion? God gave us the ability to fix what is wrong.
My cat gave birth to kittens this week. 2 Kittens, one with the intestines born on the outside. The mother abandoned that kitten and I had to have it put down. The kitten would had died slowly had nature taken its course. But the mother cat instinctively knew that something was wrong with it and abandoned it.
I’m having a lot of trouble posting today, I don’t know if its the site or if it’s my computer.
Those who are anti-abortion don’t want to look at horribly deformed children or admit that they could be suppporting what causes that in the first place.
In response to FF:
I understand why you cannot get involved, but I’ve worked hard for a long time now on keeping women accessible to help, regardless of the choice they make. I have listened to stories of old women who were forced to birth their children, just to watch them die agonizing deaths…who came from teh brink of suicide. I have watched girls tell their stories of how they were so afraid of their pregnancies being found out that they received no prenatal care and ultimately put their lives in jeopardy to hide the pregnancy.
I will continue to fight for your right to choose, because it’s the right thing to do. I can no more put myself in your shoes or understand your position better than you. But I can listen and do all I can to stop those who want to rule your choice.
There are lots of women, young and old, that find themselves in untenable positions. We need to do what we can to first of all help keep them from getting into those positions to start with. We need to also support them when they find themselves in such positions, whether or not they contributed to that fact.
Again, my position is that if the unborn child has reached the age of viability, or that it exhibits brain waves of the sort that we would not pull the plug on a “born” child, then it deserves constitutional protection. Prior to that, legally, we must at the most stand aside and let the adult woman make the decision best for her. Minor children, inmy mind, should be in conjunction with parental advice. I know there are problems there, and there is no easy answer. I have not made any claim other than Tiller is no hero. Neither have I said he is evil I have made no claim against the woman and girls having abortions, nor have I expressed any willingness for anyone todie, pregnant or otherwise. Anybody who claims otherwise is simply put, a liar.
Littlejohn, when you see the doctor do you have to go to court to get every procedure approved? Is there a legal team standing by to approve every medical procedure? Or do you have the right to consult with your doctor in privacy and the two of you make a medical decision? Why do you think women shouldn’t have the same rights as you?
#
Maggotpunk
Posted July 3, 2008 at 11:36 am | Permalink
“second trimenster, only after much medical and legal review, third trimester–illegal except in the most extreme cases.”
Restricting access to medical care costs lives. That’s why women have to travel thousands of miles to come here for a medical procedure. Those who can’t afford simply die and anti’s rejoice in another woman’s death.
————————————
Odd, didn’t know that pregnancy was listed as a terminal disease.
LJ there is no way on earth that my decision should be left up to how much I can pay my lawyer, and how the judge feels about abortion. It’s MY body and MY life, and I have the right to act in the best interest of myself and that fetus.
In some cases you are advocating further abuse of women…such as one who claims to be raped, but hasn’t had the ability to face it yet.
Perhaps she is too afraid of the consequences…and we’ve seen those consequences in domestic abuse where the woman is killed.
TRUST WOMEN to make the decision that is best for them. They know far more about their situation.
…and who wants to bet that “deb” isnt even a woman?
“On the internet, no one knows you are a dog”
Pregnancy very well can be a terminal disease. So little you know Regular. So little.
” Why do you think women shouldn’t have the same rights as you?”
Well sure they do. They can make all the decisions about their own body they want. They can consult in private with their doctor all they want. However, an abortion is about someone elses’s body. And I think that should be regulated.
Still waiting for some link to where I would “A person may need a life saving medical procedure due to a tubal pregnancy and you’ll deny it to her and happily see her die. ”
Back it up, back it down, or be called a liar
“Well sure they do. They can make all the decisions about their own body they want.”
Glad to know you changed your position and they no longer need to go to court to get access to a medical procedure.
“LJ there is no way on earth that my decision should be left up to how much I can pay my lawyer, and how the judge feels about abortion. It’s MY body and MY life, and I have the right to act in the best interest of myself and that fetus.
”
Political Mama-
First of, you know as well as I do that people in distress do not always make the decision to “act inthe best interest” of anybody.
Second, did you see in my post above above post abortive review? Between the doctor and the board of Healing Arts or other some review board? How does that equate with you paying for a lawyer? Or being subject to the feelings of a judge?
“Glad to know you changed your position and they no longer need to go to court to get access to a medical procedure.”
liar
Does Maggotpunk have a financial interest in the abortion industry?
Littlejohn, are you saying that going through a long, expensive court battle in order to get a medical procedure done doesn’t delay anything? Do you even know what you are talking about?
Listen, I know there many personal stories that buttress up the claim on both sides. I know that there are extremists on both sides. I know there are opinions on both sides, and in between. We need to have some measure of lucidity and logic to our discussions, without the “baby-killer” mentality or the “you just women who had sex to die” mentality. I have tried to reach a compromise. Obviously, there are those here who are extremists. Your choice. My choice is to say you are wrong. You can call me all the names you want. Genrealizations only bring hate and bitterness. Obviously some of you have plenty of both.
Still waiting for some link to where I would “A person may need a life saving medical procedure due to a tubal pregnancy and you’ll deny it to her and happily see her die. ”
Back it up, back it down, or be called a liar
Stil waiting. and waiting and waiting and waiting
Extremists on both sides? On one sides there are patients and doctors who want to do a medical procedure, on your side there are fanatics who think a woman should explain to a judge, who has no medical training, why a procedure is necessary.
I’m not an auto mechanic, do you need to explain to me why you should get your tires rotated or is that a decision between you and the mechanic?
Your position is absurd.
LJ, the fetus is part of my body clear up until the time it is born. And even sometimes after those cells continue to affect my body.
Such as, during birth is the time when an RH factor comes into play, when my body builds antibodies to the child’s blood. So that next time when I get pregnant, if I have another RH factor, my body will automatically reject it.
Eclampsia is another, that is a medical emergency that will KILL me if I don’t either have the baby or abort the baby. Surely you don’t ask that women wait to go before a review board before the doctor can treat this woman?
I’m saying it’s important to keep those decisions between a woman and her doctor. We already know the hormones can make some women psychotic. Post partum depression is a normal part of childbirth, but it can be devistating if it leads to psychosis or in conjunction with another mental disorder. we’re seeing the effects of that now in a McPherson case.
So it is quite rattling to me that you are trying to say that the women’s body and the fetus’s body are totally seperate from each other at a certain period. It’s not. Sometimes even POST BIRTH, doctors will risk one baby’s life to save another if the twins are conjoined…less they both die.
These are decisions for the mother and the doctor. Not some review board or judge who might bring their prejudice in.
Maggotpunk states
“That’s why women have to travel thousands of miles to come here for a medical procedure. Those who can’t afford simply die and anti’s rejoice in another woman’s death” and
”
A person may need a life saving medical procedure due to a tubal pregnancy and you’ll deny it to her and happily see her die.”
and then has the audacity to know if I know what I am talking about?!!!!
Oh, still waiting
“LJ, the fetus is part of my body clear up until the time it is born. And even sometimes after those cells continue to affect my body.”
Sorry PM, your body belongs to Littlejohn, the government, the judge and the state’s lawyers. When you go get a mammogram be sure to consult Littlejohn’s opinion and get a court order that will allow you to do it.
You’ll be treated as a human being the moment you get a Y chromosome. Such is the position of the anti-choicers.
“and then has the audacity to know if I know what I am talking about?!!!!
Oh, still waiting”
Are you playing the little ignoramus today? You are the one who said the courts need to decide whether or not a woman is eligible for a medical procedure. I’ve quoted your position. I made you look like a fool and now you are denying what you said.
“Sorry PM, your body belongs to Littlejohn, the government, the judge and the state’s lawyers. When you go get a mammogram be sure to consult Littlejohn’s opinion and get a court order that will allow you to do it.
You’ll be treated as a human being the moment you get a Y chromosome. Such is the position of the anti-choicers.”
Liar
Still waiting. Go find the post! I want to see it! Anyplace where I’ve stated anything near what you posted my position was.
Liar
LJ says,
“second trimenster, only after much medical and legal review, third trimester–illegal except in the most extreme cases.”
Who does this legal review if not lawyers and the courts? LJ lies when he says this isn’t his position because I quoted it exactly from one of his posts.
Face it johnny, you are a liar.
Johnny, do you have to go through the court system when you want a medical procedure done? You want women to. You are a liar.
Maggotpunk-
You obviously don;t want any adult discussion, nor are you even intelectually stimulating to me in this area. and now your post
“and now you are denying what you said.”
Liar. Good luck finding those posts.
Johnny, who approves of abortions in “extreme” circumstances? Is it the doctor and patient? Perhaps, but you want them to prove their innocence in court just like Dr. Tiller had to do.
That’s the system you want, and it has been proven through this grand jury trial. Judges deciding medical procedures, not doctors and patients. If I’m lying then what was the entire grand jury trial about?
In maggotpunk’s upside down world, murder of a late term child is a medical procedure. He will defend late term abortion based on his willful ignorance of what happens during a late term abortion by calling it a “medical procedure”.
Don’t accept his argument in favor of the freedom to have a”medical procedure” done because his definition of a “medical procedure” is anything that anybody wants to do to another human being.
Just because a degreed doctor does the deed, doesn’t make it a “medical procedure”. It is murder.
Poltiical Mama-
I understand your position, I just disagree as to the extant and at what point things other than the mothers wishes come into play. Peace
The reason I asked if Maggotpunk has a financial reason to promote abortion is because his name is the same as a website of cretins who are obsessed with abortion, Tller, and it looks like satanism.
Murder? Can you guys prove that in court? RFL.
FlimFan, I can hardly look at the photo. My intention was not for you to look at it, but for Maggotpunk, who frequently gives jabs at what he thinks other poster’s party line is, and doesn’t always deal with the issue. Many do not think it is a BABY that is aborted that was the point of the photo.
The photo is of an aborted baby, not some criminal cutting off the head of a baby after its birth. Some abortionists in the past have removed the baby through dismemberment. To my knowledge George Tiller does NOT use this method.
I am truly sorry you had your abortion and for the sorrow you bear.
“The reason I asked if Maggotpunk has a financial reason to promote abortion is because his name is the same as a website of cretins who are obsessed with abortion, Tller, and it looks like satanism.”
I’m an Atheist, dumbass. Satan is one of your Christian gods. As for being a cretin there is nothing wrong with my thyroid.
“Can you guys prove that in court?”
Yes we can
Will people like Maggotpunk reject the only logical conclustion that late term abortion is murder?
Yes they will.
Deb, if you were carrying one of those painfully deformed babies and you knew that it would suffer horribly before it died…would you get an abortion? Would you like to have that option or have the decision made for you.
And say you did choose to let the baby die painfully and slowly…and you got pregnant again, with a child who was shown to be likely just as deformed…what choice do you want to have?
YOu forgot the main question. How much money you make off the abortion industry?
RFL, if you guys can prove that Tiller murdered someone in court will you do as shamefully lousy as you did in this last waste of taxpayer money?
Present your evidence here. I think you are a liar, but you are an anti so I’m being redundant.
“YOu forgot the main question. How much money you make off the abortion industry?”
Where’s your evidence that I make any.
Anyone that has a 401 k has investments in the abortion industry.
FYI That wasn’t directed at you MP.
Those who show photos of dismembered fetuses act as if that mere image is enough to change a mind about what is really going on. often its just shock value and very inaccurate of the big picture.
It looks like a photo that could had been taken from Troy Newman while dumpster diving…back when abortions were performed in that manner. Of course, the image wouldn’t show that the baby had severe spinal bifida, or a big tumor growing out of its chest or anything like that.
Those photos of little arms, grossly over-enlarged, to show detail that can’t be seen with the naked eye to look more developed than it actually is. Its funny to compare people for choice with Satan, when we’re not the great decievers.
Every ruling shows who is the one doing the decieving. Its not our side.
Political Mama, the answer is yes, I would carry the baby to term. Abortion is also painful. The decision is in the hands of God not man.
Also, yes I am a woman. Yes, I’ve had children and yes I’ve even had miscarriages. I’ve taught children with special needs and worked with children with severe disabilities.
The bottom line is that abortion is legal.
Republicans could have changed that but they have chosen to keep it legal.
Well I wouldn’t. I had a baby brother born with very severe disabilities physical ones, and I watched his poor body suffer for two years before GOD chose that he had enough.
I would choose to be humane and let that child die before it had to suffer.
Maggotpunk requests evidence that killing a viable human being during a late term abortion equals murder.
How do I answer such a morally deprived request?
Maggotpunk, being an atheist, has no framework upon which to base his morals. He chooses to ignore the indisputable truth of biological science that late term in-utero human beings, are completely viable with all the necessary attribues of life. They are proven to have brainwave activity, heart beat and be able to feel pain. Just like Maggotpunk! Yet, due to Maggopunks abysmal ability to determine right and wrong consistant with advanced civilization, he chooses to hate the right and embrace the evil while being ignorant of his own hypocrisy in that he believes that no one has the right to take his own life.
Maggot believes that Tiller, who kills late term human beings, is a hero, while those who seek to protect innocent and vulnerable human life, are the villains.
Such is the stuff maggotpunk is forced to sleep with every single night of his life. I have no response other than to offer my condolences.
So no evidence then RFL? As usual an anti has managed to prove himself a liar.
ah so now its atheist vs christian now. Atheists have no morality, and Christians own the manual.
Have I shown you my favorite site evilbible.com?
You have nothing to show that, many preemies clear up until right before birth die outside of the womb because they were not yet equipped to live on the outside. Those that live can have lifelong disability.
Your pain theory is that, just a theory. It also has been disputed by many.
Maggotpunk still hasn’t answered the question about whether it has financial ties to the abortion industry.
“Maggotpunk still hasn’t answered the question about whether it has financial ties to the abortion industry.”
I don’t, but you must have something to suggest that I do. I’d just like you to present it.
“…and who wants to bet that “deb” isnt even a woman?”
Uhm, no. There are plenty of women who oppose abortion. The issue is often one of identification. Some people, women and men, identify with the fetus, and it is NOT just conservative religious beliefs that are predictive of that identification.
And for the record, I am pro choice.
“Maggotpunk, being an atheist, has no framework upon which to base his morals.”
Bullsh*t. You may not agree with him, but Maggotpunk actually has a strong committment to what he sees as the right side of a moral issue. And you claim that atheists have no framework for morals is simply the same ignorant pablum you have been vomiting out for some time. And that is what it is, ignorant.
I have to run off now but I’ll be back in a few hours to check up on the progress of the lies of the antis. They have these things to prove:
1) That I’m receiving money from the medical industry
2) That Tiller is guilty of the crime of murder
3) That women are mentally inferior and must have their medical decisions determined by the state.
If you ever go to the Operation Rescue page, its really fun to read the responses that they allow on their site. Of course, there is never an pro-choice comment allowed. They can’t have that.
But you get to see the mindset of these followers and holy cow it’s out there.
There is one I’m reading right now where women should be charged with murder for obtaining an abortion. One says she’d give her life for her unborn…that’s fine, it’s her choice. But what about her other kids who will have to be raised by…whom?
Agnatha,
Since you are speaking for Maggotpunk now, can you tell us what his basis is for determining the right side of a moral issue?
Does Agnatha believe that being committed to what one sees as the right side makes that side the right side?
If so, Agnatha must be willing to defend the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and McVeigh, Bin Laden, Pol Pot and anybody else who is committed to what they think is right. These men were committed to what they thought was right. Using Agnatha’s logic, nobody dare say that these men were wrong since they were committed!
And since I am committed to my definition that murder of late term human beings is wrong, according to Agnatha, that commitment alone means that I am right.
Agnatha irrationally proposes that opposing ideas are both right since both defenders of those ideas are committed to those opposing ideas respectively.
Holy cow now there is some circular logic for you.
Congratulations it seems the church has taught you well.
I think OR has lost most of it’s credibility, however, apparently they do allow dissenting opinions on their blogs. Here is a couple I found pretty easily:
“pro choice Says:
“December 11th, 2007 at 10:32 am
This is a load of biased rubbish! the photo above of 10 women in one room with no privacy is a lie and unless you’ve been through the situation yourself i’s none of your business so stop making some women feel even more guilty for making a choice that was hard to decide on in the first place.”
“Kyle Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 4:18 am
I see nothing wrong with this procedure. Just because a fetus may kick in the womb does not mean that fetus is able to feel pain.”
littlejohn
Posted July 3, 2008 at 9:42 am | Permalink
…First off, you can describe me as an anti if you wish. You can describe me however you want. My position on this has always been clearly stated. First trimester, abortion without question. second trimenster, only after much medical and legal review, third trimester–illegal except in the most extreme cases. That is it in a nutshell….
========================================
Well, L J, I think your second and third trimester opinions are what M P is referring to…
Second Trimester — only AFTER MUCH medical and legal review (what do you MEAN here by legal review?? Court issues can take a LOT of time… postponing a procedure by even a couple of weeks at that stage, could mean danger to the mother, depending on the condition at the time)
Third Trimester — illegal except in the most extreme cases (WHICH extreme cases?? Can you enumerate here??)
Thanks…
REGULAR —-
Pregnancy in and of itself is not, in theory, life threatening…
However, that being said, There are complications OF pregnancy that can be extremely life threatening… Ectopic(Tubal) pregnancies…. Gestatiional diabetes… Certain other problems in the mother’s metabolic system… ALL of those are considered life threatening… My youngest daughter had a problem with gestational diabetes on her last two pregnancies… nearly had to abort the last one… She lost one totally to an Ectopic… between # 2 and # 3…. miscarriage…
So, methinks you needs to do some further study on such matters…. Pregnancy (complications) can be VERY life threatening…
They need to quit wasting peoples’ time and the public’s money. It’s anti-conservative. Not really, look at all the money the cons wasted investigating Clinton.
I’d forgotton what a shallow, nasty little piece of work you are RFL.
“Maggotpunk, being an atheist, has no framework upon which to base his morals.”
This is an absolute statement. It is also false.
This is RFL’s follow-up.
“Does Agnatha believe that being committed to what one sees as the right side makes that side the right side?”
Two things are wrong within this single question.
1) Straw man fallacy. I didn’t say that being committed to “what one sees as the right side makes that side the right side.” For that matter, there wouldn’t be such discussions if there was universal agreement on what side was right. But that doesn’t mean that both people don’t think they are right.
2) This question moves the goalposts. Remember the original assertion, which was that Maggotpunk, because he is an atheist has no moral framework for his beliefs. RFL is trying to now change the proposition to arguing that to argue that someone has a moral framework for their beliefs is to say that they are correct.
3) This question is a prelude to poisoning the well.
“If so, Agnatha must be willing to defend the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and McVeigh, Bin Laden, Pol Pot and anybody else who is committed to what they think is right. These men were committed to what they thought was right. Using Agnatha’s logic, nobody dare say that these men were wrong since they were committed!”
See? Poisoning the well by fulfilling Godwin’s Rule. And we’ve just gotten started. My “logic” does not lead this way at all. This appears to be an invoking of the extreme relative morality fallacy that some who are conservative religious believers seem to invoke. However, this is extreme even for such believers.
“And since I am committed to my definition that murder of late term human beings is wrong, according to Agnatha, that commitment alone means that I am right.”
See above about straw men fallacy. I never said that committment to morality means that someone is right.
“Agnatha irrationally proposes that opposing ideas are both right since both defenders of those ideas are committed to those opposing ideas respectively.”
This is the culimination of RFL’s attempt at using a red herring. The original issue is the claim that an atheist by definition has no moral framework. Arguing that an atheist, or for that matter other people, have moral frameworks that lead to very different moral conclusions is a different argument.
RFL, you have previously demonstrated a nasty prejudice against people who are not theists (as well as an overly broad interpretation of who these people are). You also, once again, fail to address an issue with honesty or integrity.
Simple question:
Why does an atheist, by definition, lack a moral framework?
That’s the proposition you made. Put up or shut up.
Good grief, RFL… when will you people stop falling back and using Godwin’s Law every time you try to mount your offensive???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Geez, this gets old seeing this kind of CRAP, RFL… Demented dim wit
Agnatha — let somebody try to tell Bertrand Russell that an atheist can have no basis for a moral framework, eh?? :-)
OR and their fellow travellers say there is no need to change the law, even though the Grand Jury suggested it:
“The grand jury said that while it had questions about some late-term procedures, state law isn’t written clearly enough. The grand jury said it’s likely that Tiller won’t ever will face criminal charges unless state laws change.
But anti-abortion Republican Rep. Lance Kinzer, of Olathe, said he believes the law already is clear. The head of Kansans for Life, Mary Kay Culp, agrees.”
http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/story/453578.html
I guess they prefer the publicity they get with their Grand Juries.
“Chas” says –
“…do some further study on such matters…. Pregnancy (complications) can be VERY life threatening…”
In fact, more women die in childbirth each year than from abortion complications.
But for the
amoralists, the only life that matters is the fetus.That is the question Agnatha. Is fear the remedy for evil or the cause of evil?
The premise (from RFL, I suppose) is that since MP is an atheiest, he doesn’t have the fear of God. Ergo, no remedy for evil. RFL uses the term moral base, I paraphrase of course.
I would argue that he has less fear, ergo less cause of evil.
But it’s hard to get to this point in a discussion with a religious conservative.
As mentioned above circular reasoning, slavery to Boolean logic, false dilemas, and loads of begging the question.
Right on Chas, Bertrand Russell was a pioneer in the study of atheist morality. He did well on that subject.
Only got time for in and out. Just for shts and grns, I posted this on the Operation Rescue site. Let’s see if it stays
“littlejohn Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Apparently, the grand jury did thier job.
“In other words, the law prevented it from indicting Tiller.”
If it was the law, it is the law. Change hearts, don;t rant at people following the law”
from
http://www.operationrescue.org/?p=981
Why does an atheist, by definition, lack a moral framework?
-Agnatha
Morals, if they are immutable, have to be instituted and defined by a entity that transcends human life and human instituted governments(chronological and hierachal).
If an idea is determined to be truly wrong (such as murder), it is wrong throughout all of time, past, present and future regardless of popular opinion at any given time.
This idea must be rooted from a source higher and distinctly seperate from ourselves if it is to be immutable. Since nations, governments and people, are all finite in there presence on this planet, no one can assert the immutability of any idea for all time unless it be administered by an entity that transcends all time.
Otherwise, the moral delineation of an idea (such as murder) can change based on the whimsical wishes of a mob majority.
For example, no rational Atheist can say that Hitler was wrong since at that time and in that culture, exterminating the Jews might have been okay if there were some kind of “contingent benefit” that could be used the ignore the immorallity of murder. For today’s discussion that “contingent benefit” is the perceived improvement to the economic situation of a mother which serves to justify the murder of the mother’s child.
However, Atheists will still assert that Hitler was wrong since for now, most people still suscribe to an immutable definition of morality for some acts of atrocity. Doing so acknowleges the perceived existence of a God.
So can Atheists claim that Hitler was wrong and do so rationally if there is no basis for determining right and wrong for all ages since there is no God that transcends all ages?
Answer: NO. An Atheist has no framework to call anything right or wrong for all ages since there is no entity in their mind that exists that transcends all chronological ages and who therefore enacted the very laws of nature (laws that include that murder is wrong).
I have answered Agnatha’s question, now will he/she answer mine?
What is your basis for determining the right side of a moral issue?
That’s total BS. For example, murdering in self defense is not an absolute wrong. Much like war that the neocons like to claim is a moral right.
You’re basically saying fear has to rule the day. Not so. I’m perfectly capable of determining right from wrong and yet, I don’t believe in Christ at least not as divine.
I don’t believe there is a written moral code. My moral code extends beyond.
You put a lot of words down to try to make a ridiculous point. Perhaps you need someone to scare you into doing the right thing in your own mind, but you’re wrong a lot of the time. Such as, in your quest to end all abortion.
Live in the now and you can see far more clearly.
Would it be wrong for us to Kill Hitler?
p-mama – what RFL is saying is that he requires an external source to know right and wrong. Of course, if that external source tells him “God says we should exterminate these people” then he will follow that. Sort of like the logic in the Book of Joshua about genocide against the various inhabitants of Palestine or the extermination of “soul-less” native Americans because “preacher said it was right.” Similar justification of slavery based on the Curse of Ham. ALL by people who claim to be religious.
RFL
How did Confucious make the radical improvements in morality that he inarguably made? He didn’t appeal to a definition of God. He didn’t appeal to fear to improve the morality. He just brought awareness to the society.
Once again, you only speak within the confines of your paradigm: All people are evil by nature and only a Supreme Being can show us the right way.
Anyone stuck in that paradigm will obviously come to your conclusions. Why not show me how your paradigm is the right paradigm?
Once again, evil is not remedied by fear any more than it is caused by fear.
And Islam’s external source said to kill Christians.
The deists truly seemed to do pretty well wiht right/wrong.
The deists truly seemed to do pretty well wiht right/wrong.
**************
LOL, well yeah. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. “Christians” are the ones who want to destroy those. I have A LOT more confidence in the Founders’ sense of right and wrong than I do that of “Christians.”
RFL, you do good in order to get a reward. I do good without expectation of a reward. So your morals are based upon greed, mine are based upon secular humanism, altruism.
If you are going to make an argument about morals then it’s best not to use Christians as your examples of immoral people. Hitler was a Catholic, Stalin was Russian Orthodox, McVeigh was a Catholic, etc. They had your Christian morals and the atrocities they did were moral. Your Bible advocates slavery and genocide, therefore such acts are moral. Your Bible also says women are property and fetuses aren’t a life. Which means that you oppose abortion, not on religious grounds, but some godless viewpoint.
Oh well, it’s not like I’ve heard tired apologist arguments before. You are just avoiding the fact that you can’t present any evidence that Tiller should be prosecuted for murder. Is libel one of those moral acts of yours?
There we have it.. the Christian says only his tribe can be moral.
“An Atheist has no framework to call anything right or wrong.”
What arrogance. What an insult.
What ignorance, even if the writer chooses to allow the possibility of morality to those who worship some (any??) deity or deities (any and all?)
Wow! There are some really radical atheists, or accidents of evolution, as they like to think of themselves, on this blog. How fun!
“Morals, if they are immutable, have to be instituted and defined by a entity that transcends human life and human instituted governments(chronological and hierachal).”
Why? On what basis are you stating this premise?
I could easily argue that altrusim is rooted in evolution, given the evidence. Of course, I won’t even bother since you don’t “believe in evolution”.
We will demand respect for and compliance with Kansas laws banning post-viable abortions, and get it, one way or another. We will have Kansas ruled by the laws enacted by our elected legislators, and not ruled by criminal abortionist quacks who bribe our governor and buy up judges and prosecutors to nullify and discard state laws as it suits their depraved greed. We will have corrupt bureaucrats who shield abortion mill crimes from the law in prison along with their favorite abortionist quacks.
We will have justice.
Hmmmm…
I wouldn’t mind seeing you “easily” argue that altruism is “rooted” in Evolution.
well so far, you look ridiculous Parkay Newman.
Is Parkay another word for ’slick’?
I was wondering when you were going to wake up from your sorrowful binge drunk after the ruling last night and grace us with your presence.
I love how your buddy Mary Kay blamed it all on Foulston. Couldn’t be because you’re wrong, you’ve always been wrong, and you won’t win because you’re still wrong.
Hey, Parkay makes a lot of sense. What in the world is a disgusting late term abortionist doing in Wichita, KS of all places? Local Chamber of Commerce effort, no doubt.
The Big Indian, Exploration Place, Sedgwick Co Zoo and the Tiller the Killer Abortuarium.
Surprise!!!!!!!!!
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama says “mental distress” should not qualify as a health exception for late term-abortions, a key distinction not embraced by many supporters of abortion rights.
In an interview this week with “Relevant,” a Christian magazine, Obama said prohibitions on late-term abortions must contain “a strict, well defined exception for the health of the mother.”
Obama then added: “Now, I don’t think that ‘mental distress’ qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term.”
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080703/D91MKQ681.html
LLVT, that was an excellent response to RFL. Political Mama, Ben, Maggotpunk, DavidB, and Tara also all made excellent points as well.
As for RFL, his reasoning was pretty much what I expected it to be. I at least appreciate the fact that he did answer the question without going off on another tangent. My own response will be forthcoming.
“I wouldn’t mind seeing you “easily” argue that altruism is “rooted” in Evolution.”
What’s the point, you can’t comprehend basic concepts in science so why would an explanation of how altruism is rooted in evolution be any different?
A followup on the antis efforts to make their case for these three points:
1) That I’m receiving money from the medical industry
2) That Tiller is guilty of the crime of murder
3) That women are mentally inferior and must have their medical decisions determined by the state.
And the Antis are zero for three. Yes, once again the Antis can tell lies but fail to back them up with any facts. Antis are liars but nobody could honestly expect them to defend such intellectually and morally bankrupt views.
WS you see, your guy OBAMA just made a HUGE error. HUGE. THis is HUGE with us.
A mental health exception is an absolute. There is no way around it. Until a woman’s mind is separate from her body, and psychosis and suicide won’t happen as a result from pregnancy, there MUST be mental health exceptions.
Obama tacking HARD right?
What a….surprise.
He IS only the presumed nominee. The party still has an out if he continues on this course.
Interesting article in today’s paper about Tiller’s practice. Out of the 2,660 late term abortions on viable fetuses, only seven had abnormalities and NONE were done to save the life of the mother…what’s wrong with this picture?
Freedom for all of us, except for the fetus, who is totally defenseless, in the name of choice!
Now where are the African-Americans in their defense of the fetus and their related civil rights issues?
I’m listening……………
Tick, tock, tick, tock……..
“Political_mama
Posted July 3, 2008 at 4:35 pm | Permalink
That’s total BS. For example, murdering in self defense is not an absolute wrong. Much like war that the neocons like to claim is a moral right.”
If someone attacks you and you are forced to defend yourself or be killed (murdered), that is not commiting murder.
Murder is not necessarily the same as killing.
Bottom line is that the current law is fine and changing it will make no difference as long as you have white trash like McFarland, Rebenstorf, Six and Foulston involved in the process.
I suspect that situation will continue because the people of Kansas have decided that Tiller is killing the “right” babies, just as the Germans felt that killing the Jews was good for Germany.
Kansas has simply become America’s corrupt gateway to the Fourth Reich and Wichita is its Auschwitz.
Godwin’s Law enforced here.
—–
One of the most frustrating aspects of this argument is how the self-righteous can’t resist imposing their personal theocracy into civil law.
My computer spontaneously shut down Internet Explorer when I was writing this reply, much to be great irritation.
So, let’s do this again.
My question to RFL:
Why does an atheist, by definition, lack a moral framework?
-Agnatha
My response to RFL’s answer follows in italics.
Morals, if they are immutable, have to be instituted and defined by a entity that transcends human life and human instituted governments(chronological and hierarchal).
Right off the bat, there are two things wrong with this statement (and it forms the basis for the rest of RFL’s answer).
1) It is false because morals do not have to be immutable (i.e. objective) to be consistent. I reject that premise from the outset, and I will not recognize it as valid. This premise is not necessary either for consistency of a moral framework or for agreement on moral questions. Inter-subjectivity and valuing others are sufficient for the development of moral frameworks such as the rejection of murder. For that matter, subjective morality can be based, and in fact is based, on objective knowledge (for example, the realization that we are subject to a life and can all feel pain and loss as well has joy and well being, and that the causes of these feelings are by and large consistent between us).
2) It is false because it presumes that immutable morals are contingent upon the existence of an entity. To understand why this is the case, it is important to understand the difference between the concepts of objective morality (a morality external and unchanging from the minds of the beings who are subject to it) and subjective morality (a morality developed from the minds of the beings who implement it). A morality that comes from rules generated by an intelligent entity, even an eternal one, are by definition subjective to that entity. If they are “laid into the foundations of the universe” by the entity (and I think we all know who RFL’s entity is), they are still subjective rules arising from the beliefs and thoughts of that entity. If the rules are objective because they arise from the fabric of the universe, then the entity is subject to the same rules. If the entity, being the entity, can change its mind about the rules, then they are by definition subjective. Therefore, an entity is not necessary to the existence of an objective morality if the entity itself is subject to those rules. More to the point, if an objective morality were to be weaved into the fabric of the universe, then such a fabric could be derived just like other rules of the universe. Therefore, belief in an eternal rule writing entity is unnecessary for one to believe in objective morality. Keep in mind, that in point 1) I argue that in fact belief in an objective morality is unnecessary for widespread moral agreement or coherency.
If an idea is determined to be truly wrong (such as murder), it is wrong throughout all of time, past, present and future regardless of popular opinion at any given time.
This brings us to another point. One commonly occurring confusion is between objective and subjective morality and moral relativism. Moral relativism (i.e., situational ethics) is sometimes argued to be a negative consequence of subjective morality. However, moral relativism (situational ethics) is actually inevitable regardless of whether morality is subjective or objective. For example murder (the intentional killing of another human being) is wrong, but pretty much everyone recognizes exceptions, regardless of whether they believe in objective morality or even an eternal entity as the source of that objective morality. The discussions we have commonly here about gun rights, and the fact that some of the most strident supporters of gun rights also tend to be people who more than likely believe in the existence of an objective morality grounded in the rules created by an eternal entity. Self defense or the defense of others, for example, are recognized exceptions to the rule. The recognition of the reality of moral relativism is universal, what is not is the variety of attempts to reconcile this recognition with the idea of unchanging rules (e.g., killing is always wrong, but it is less wrong than allowing others or oneself to be killed through inaction).
Furthermore, an almost universal recognition that murder is wrong is not dependent upon the existence of or recognition of an objective morality. The recognition that everyone is subject to a life, that other persons’ lives, like one’s own, is a rich collection of feelings, thoughts, personal history, and perception and that a person’s life is his/her most fundamental possession, is sufficient for the vast majority of individuals to come to the conclusion that “murder is wrong” (hence, the reality that subjective moral values can be based on objective knowledge). As Ben posted on another thread, and as LLVT aptly pointed out in this one, the Golden Rule was arrived at by a wide variety of cultures, some of which did not presume the existence of an objective moral code created by an entity (e.g., Confucious).
This idea must be rooted from a source higher and distinctly separate from ourselves if it is to be immutable. Since nations, governments and people, are all finite in their presence on this planet, no one can assert the immutability of any idea for all time unless it be administered by an entity that transcends all time.
As I pointed out before, both the ideas that a consistent and coherent morality with a large degree of agreement is dependent upon being “immutable” (objective), much less the idea that recognizing an immutable (objective) morality is contingent upon the assumed existence of an eternal entity, are false. More to the point, recognizing that governments, societies, and individual humans are all finite begs the following question, what meaning does morality have if there are not intelligent and social entities whose behavioral interactions with others require the regulation that moral codes bring? Morality without the interrelationships of intelligent social entities is like a forest without trees. It is a self contradicting concept.
Otherwise, the moral delineation of an idea (such as murder) can change based on the whimsical wishes of a mob majority.
The presumed existence of an eternal entity (rule maker) has not resulted in more consistent moral delineations between cultures. For example, the putting to death of people for heresy in some Christian cultures, or the practice of honor killing in some Muslim cultures, both arose from the belief in eternal rules written by an eternal rule giver. There is no evidence, none whatsoever, that the presumed existence of an intelligent entity writing the rules results in greater consistency in or less variation of moral ideas. For that matter, the greatest predictor of moral consideration and consistency in how people are treated is in the definitions cultures and individuals apply as to who is in the circle of moral consideration and obligation. And while these definitions can be influenced by beliefs in an entity, they are in no way necessarily dependent upon such beliefs (and arguably, beliefs in not only an entity but in knowing the entities rules, if anything, are as if not more likely to reduce the circles of moral consideration.
For example, no rational Atheist can say that Hitler was wrong since at that time and in that culture, exterminating the Jews might have been okay if there were some kind of “contingent benefit” that could be used the ignore the immorality of murder. For today’s discussion that “contingent benefit” is the perceived improvement to the economic situation of a mother which serves to justify the murder of the mother’s child.
This statement arises from the false premises RFL is operating under. And it is just flat out wrong. If a person looks at those who were scapegoated and slaughtered in Nazi Germany and recognizes the humanity of those people, that is a rational reason for saying that Hitler was wrong. And that claim is both rational and not in any way contingent upon a belief in god or gods. Period.
However, Atheists will still assert that Hitler was wrong since for now, most people still subscribe to an immutable definition of morality for some acts of atrocity. Doing so acknowleges the perceived existence of a God.
No, it doesn’t. Neither the immutable definition of morality, much less the assumption that God exists, is necessary to assert and make a rational argument that Hitler was wrong. Achieving agreement on the principle that you wouldn’t want such a thing to happen to you or yours, and that other people have the same wishes, is sufficient for arguing that Hitler was wrong, for coming up with a broad consensus that Hitler was wrong, and for convincing others that Hitler was wrong on a rational basis. And as I said, even if one is inclined to believe in objective moral rules, pre-assuming the existence of an eternal entity, a God, is unnecessary.
So can Atheists claim that Hitler was wrong and do so rationally if there is no basis for determining right and wrong for all ages since there is no God that transcends all ages?
Question begging based on demonstrably invalid premises.
Answer: NO. An Atheist has no framework to call anything right or wrong for all ages since there is no entity in their mind that exists that transcends all chronological ages and who therefore enacted the very laws of nature (laws that include that murder is wrong).
Wrong answer based on circular reasoning relating back to those same invalid premises. Belief in an entity is not necessary for developing a framework for right and wrong. Some of the greatest recognized moral philosophers in history (e.g., Confucious) did not operate under such a premise, and yet came to conclusions startlingly similar to those who did operate under such a premise.
I have answered Agnatha’s question, now will he/she answer mine?
You did attempt to answer my question. Thank you. I hope you learn the error of your thinking. Some of the logical conclusions from your faulty premises are frightening, as others have pointed out (e.g., the idea that belief in an entity that punishes wrong behavior and rewards right behavior is necessary for one to be good indicates a possible willingness to act as if there would be no restrictions if there was n no entity watching says something very disturbing about that individual). The other frightening aspect of your faulty premises is that it results in some rather offensive and even dangerous misconceptions and prejudice against those who do not share your assumptions about the existence of a god.
What is your basis for determining the right side of a moral issue?
My basis is the recognition that others are subject to a life, and that their lives and their loves are as important to them as mine are to me. The Golden Rule, and for that matter the Platinum Rule when possible (Treat others as they would have you treat them), should be applied. The basis for that morality reduces, in the end, to simple empathy. And that empathy has a rational and objective basis.
from today’s Wichita Eagle: Wagle, citing statistics from the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, said that of 2,660 abortions in the past six years that were reported on what doctors considered viable fetuses, none were performed to save the mother’s life, and seven involved fetuses diagnosed with abnormalities.
These must have been the “questionable abortions the Grand Jury must have been referring to. That is an average of over 430 abortions per year with an average of only ONE for fetal abnormalities.
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Mary_Caruso
Posted July 4, 2008 at 8:00 am | Permalink
Interesting article in today’s paper about Tiller’s practice. Out of the 2,660 late term abortions on viable fetuses, only seven had abnormalities and NONE were done to save the life of the mother…what’s wrong with this picture?
========================================
I would tend to agree Mary — IF those numbers are valid… Have you checked for a source for those numbers??
Thanks!!
I’m skeptical of the numbers, too.
For one thing, I find it hard to fathom the back-alley butchers advocates’ typical scenario for Tiller’s practice: That perfectly healthy women carry a pregnancy with no complications for 8 months and 29 days then, on a whim, swoop into Wichita for a last-minute spur-of-the-moment baby murder.
(Call me a cynic, but if that’s how Tiller operates, it’s probably a good thing. Women like that don’t strike me as Mother of the Year types. But I digress…)
It’s not like the Illegal-Abortion advocates haven’t resorted to lies before. Like the wholly made up “link” between terminating a pregnancy and breast cancer…
Chas, those numbers are a quote from none other than the Wichita Eagle in an article yesterday on Kansas lawmakers considering to tackle abortion legislation. http://www.kansas.com/news/story/454153.html
Deb, the statistics are NOT from the Wichita Eagle, they are from Susan Wagle “citing statistics” from the Kansas Department of Health and Environment. It is not proper to claim the Wichita Eagle as the source. For that matter, it is also not correct to claim the Department of Health and Environment as a source because it was relayed by Wagle, who has consistently had an agenda on this issue and other Christian Right culture issues (although the abortion debate is hardly limited to being a Christian Right culture issue).
I question the implication of those “statistics” as reported simply because, in most cases, late term abortions occur on wanted pregnancies. That being the case, I suspect that something did go terribly wrong in most late term abortion cases.
That being said, I am in favor of strong oversight of late term abortions. Fetal development is, IMVSO, a valid reason to institute restrictions.
And all that being said, it is important to remember that “mental health” is in itself a physical ailment. The Grand Jury does appear to have been uncomfortable with some of the ambiguities in Kansas law. I would like to see this addressed.
“I would like to see this addressed.”
Not that I trust the current right wingnuts running the legislature to address it.
Abortion is legal and continues to be legal because the Republicans do not want to close down a billion dollar industry.
The pharmaceutical industry profits from the abortion trade and Christians with 401k’s profit from the abortion industry as well.
The handwringing over abortion is phony.
Christians hands are out for some of the profits the abortion industry provides them.
“Abortion is legal and continues to be legal because the Republicans do not want to close down a billion dollar industry.
“The pharmaceutical industry profits from the abortion trade and Christians with 401k’s profit from the abortion industry as well.”
That assumes a coherency among Republicans that does not exist. There are Republicans who very much want to shut down the “industry”. I am curious about the 401k claim. Are you relating this to the pharmaceutical industry and pills like RU480/Morning After pills?
“The handwringing over abortion is phony.”
The Coalition Right leaders certainly learned that abortion may be the most effective rallying issues for the Christian Right, and this is not likely to change, because younger evangelicals also seem to be strong in their opposition to abortion (gay marriage, not so much). That being said, as I mentioned earlier the abortion issue encompasses far more than a Christian Right verses others issues. For example, there are a surprising number of disability advocates across the political spectrum who are, to put it mildly, uncomfortable with abortion, particularly late term abortions and particularly those for “fetal abnormality” (see groups like “Not Dead Yet”). Abortion is like the animal rights issue, far, far more complex and nuanced than the most uncompromising advocates on both sides paint it out to be. A great number of people (including self proclaimed Christians) have ambiguous feelings about this issue (for example, they are likely to have very different reactions to RU480, the early term abortions that yes, make up the majority of even Tiller’s practice, and the late term abortions that Tiller is most famous for).
BTW, I am pro-choice myself. My reasoning is pretty simply. I am no fan of abortion but I think that compelling women to carry a pregnancy to term is a far greater evil, particularly during the early to middle First Trimester where 99% of abortions occur.
Correction: “I am no fan of abortion but I think that compelling women to carry a pregnancy to term is a far greater evil, particularly during the early to middle First Trimester where 99% of abortions occur.”
I really should have looked this up before saying something. I am not usually this sloppy.
For the period of time described in that sentence, the correct figure is closer to 80% (79.8%).
When the late first trimester is added in, it is approximately 89%. 99% occur in the first two trimesters. Of course, the availability of medication abortion may make these figures already obsolete, with a greater prevelance in the early to middle first trimesters (but that is sheer speculation on my part).
I got these figures from the Guttmacher Institute.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
Agnatha, check the stats yourself. These are just for 2007
http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/absumm.html
Correction: the web address given is a link to Kansas Department of Health and Environment. It gives links to statistics for abortions from 1998-2007.
http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/absumm.html
“Wagle, citing statistics from the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, said that of 2,660 abortions in the past six years that were reported on what doctors considered viable fetuses, none were performed to save the mother’s life, and seven involved fetuses diagnosed with abnormalities.”
Which, of course, leaves out the reason “serious impairment of an organ or bodily function”.
Thanks for the primary info. Deb.
“Which, of course, leaves out the reason “serious impairment of an organ or bodily function”.
Which is what? As a nurse, I have no idea what that would be….I DO know I can’t jump on a trampoline anymore without wetting my pants, but I don’t see that as a serious reason to abort a healthy, viable baby.
Please enlighten me with specifics as to why over 2,000 late term abortions of healthy babies whose mothers were in no danger of dying might be justified.
“Which is what? As a nurse, I have no idea what that would be….I DO know I can’t jump on a trampoline anymore without wetting my pants,”
Why should people’s medical decisions depend on your trampoline skills? Why should they even have to consult you?
“Which is what? As a nurse, I have no idea what that would be….I DO know I can’t jump on a trampoline anymore without wetting my pants, but I don’t see that as a serious reason to abort a healthy, viable baby.
“Please enlighten me with specifics as to why over 2,000 late term abortions of healthy babies whose mothers were in no danger of dying might be justified.”
I wouldn’t presume to know, but I would consider the following:
1) This over 2,000 was over several years.
2) Most of these 2,000 were out of state people brought in by the admittedly unique nature of Tiller’s practice. These factors, applied nationwide, alone skews the numbers so that the “over 2,000″ would not be surprising. I can easily imagine “over 2,000″ exceptional cases almost nationwide over several years.
3) The criteria used relates to the “serious impairment of an organ or bodily function”, which among other things in women of childbearing age might well relate to the ability of these women to function as parents to children they already have.
Mary, I do not presume to know or claim to know whether I would personally find the criteria Dr. Tiller and his associates use to be satisfying. I certainly think late term abortions should be restricted. I do tend to suspect that in some respects they already are because late term abortions don’t tend to occur on unwanted pregnancies. That being the case, however, they certainly occur at a time, IMVO, that the status of the fetus bears very strong consideration (and that the need for an abortion, as opposed to an early delivery and adoption, would be clear to avoid “serious impairment of an organ or bodily function”). I would again like to see some of the ambiguities that the Grand Jury noted be addressed.
“The criteria used relates to the “serious impairment of an organ or bodily function”, which among other things in women of childbearing age might well relate to the ability of these women to function as parents to children they already have.”
And maybe the fact that having a baby might interfere with your sleep is another…..
So in other words, abortion for ANY reason up to the last month of pregnancy is justified?
“Mary_Caruso” asks –
“And maybe the fact that having a baby might interfere with your sleep is another…..
So in other words, abortion for ANY reason up to the last month of pregnancy is justified?”
I find it hard to fathom the illegal-abortion advocates’ typical scenario for Tiller’s practice: That perfectly healthy women carry a pregnancy with no complications for 8 months and 29 days then, on a whim, swoop into Wichita for a last-minute spur-of-the-moment baby murder.
(Call me a cynic, but if that’s how Tiller operates, it’s probably a good thing. Women like that don’t strike me as Mother of the Year types. But I digress…)
It’s not like the Illegal-Abortion advocates haven’t resorted to lies before. Like the wholly made up “link” between terminating a pregnancy and breast cancer…
Or the whole “Partial Birth” flap, which addressed a rarely-used (something like 1/10th of 1% of all clinical abortions) procedure that raised a lot of money but didn’t change policy a whit.
The people who advocate Illegal Abortion steadfastly refuse to deal with the real-world ramifications of their pronouncements. They retreat to theology or moral arrogance or ghastly photographs. They play on emotions and don’t want to engage in real-world consequences.
Why aren’t bible thumpers equally as furious about women wearing pants, men cutting their hair, and people eating shellfish? What’s with the selective morality of Christians these days?
I decree that everyone should get my permission for how they dress and what they eat. If you don’t agree then you hate God and you are persecuting me and my beliefs.
No one has anwered my question…what was the “bodily function” that would be impaired if a mother gave birth? The over 2,000 late term abortions reviewed reveiled only 7 were for abnormalities and not one was for saving the life of the mother…so WHAT then? Why were the other 2,000 plus healthy babies aborted?
Ii just want someone to answer my question, not just attempt to justify why it was OK.
Brain function. Mental illness. That is a bodily function.
The hormones the neurotransmitters are all bodily functions.
Well,
That’s kind of not your business Mary.
Unless you’d like the law to be changed to make it your business?
The cases of late term abortion are SO vanishingly rare.
And SO often used as pro life rhetoric.
But I’ll play.
Maybe a couple loses a job and insurance?
The cost of childbirth out of pocket could ruin them financially and imperil other children they may already have.
“what was the “bodily function” that would be impaired if a mother gave birth?”
Although such a question may mean this doesn’t apply to you but women have brain and they are a major body organ.
I’m sure Mary has a brain. I have a brain, too, and my frontal lobes compel me to make this point:
Listening to some excreting egomaniac take self-abuse to symphonic heights is inordinately depressing. Abortion involves real people: men, women, young, old, rich, poor, privileged, nondescript.
I don’t know what Randall Terry’s priest thinks about Tiny Terry’s current solitary group hug, but someone needs to tell the 1991 befouler of Wichita a few things. Chief among them is this: it’s really, REALLY offensive to see some dips–t turn this issue into a phallic slugfest for self-serving, stupid reasons.
Now he’s threatening to drop his latest load of TerryTrilogy upon the unwitting public. And this mean, mouthy wench likely won’t bow her head in biblical silence. (Note to the disgraced ex-evangelical: George Harrison once wrote a book titled “I, Me, Mine” and was roundly condemned for it. To be succinct, you ain’t no Beatle. Not even close.)
Randy-Pandy thinks he knows ever-thang. To be blunt, he knows neither s–t nor self-restraint when it comes to this issue. But, hey, if this latest self-congratulatory exercise proves fruitless, maybe he could resurrect his singing career. I can hear it now:
“Mah ‘d-oh-vee-oh-ahr-say-ayee’ wuz in the mayull that dayee….” Okay, enough nausea for one morning’s sickness.
Let us hope that a cadre of legal eagles kicks Randy’s a– – and kicks it soon. Let’s hope they send the narcissistic nitwit gently into that good night and/or young wife – the sooner the better.
“No one has anwered my question…what was the ‘bodily function’ that would be impaired if a mother gave birth?”
Your question was rhetorical. The lack of an answer to your satisfaction reflects nothing. For that matter, neither of us can glean from the figures what the reasons offered were.
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