A photo of a U.S. medic carrying a wounded Iraqi child was published throughout the world in 2003. But now the soldier from the photo has died from a substance overdose apparently connected to his struggle with post-traumatic stress disorder. Joseph Dwyer couldn’t “get over the war,” his mother said. It’s a reminder of how difficult life can be for some returning soldiers — and the need to provide support services.
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56 Comments
They tell these young men (and women) to shoot first ask questions later and then drug them up to “get over it”. Suicide and wife killing seem to be legit option’s to these vet’s now.
All of these kid’s that get off their med’s and go on school shooting rampages…what about the vet’s going of their med’s because of the strange side effects? They are highly trained…maybe clip a few more than Dylan and Eric? More than the VT shooter kid?
A lot are becoming “Law Enforcer’s” now as well…yeee friggin’ haw.
Could happen?
Maybe??
It’s estimated as many as one-in-three Iraq War veterans suffer symptoms of PTSD.
Four more years!
Four more years!
A hundredFour more years!Says it all here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/05/post-war-veteran-suicides_n_100246.html
Guess it’ll all be worth it when Iraq stands up and tells us to get the hell out!
That’ll never happen. Have you seen the bases we’re building over there?
A sad story all around. The vagueness of just what the mission is makes this much worse than our soldiers in WW2 dealt with. Sadly reminiscent of what happened to many friends of mine in Nam.
“That’ll never happen. Have you seen the bases we’re building over there?”
Six Flags over Baghdad? They aren’t bases, they are corporate lodgings. Republicans like Brownback and Tiahrt oppose raising taxes in order to pay for increased care for veterans. The sort of thing that might have saved Joseph Dwyer.
WWII vets had probelms too, Ira Hayes and Audie Murphy both were drunks, the former of a O’ed and died in a ditch
WWII vets had probelms too, Ira Hayes and Audie Murphy both were drunks, the former of a O’ed and died in a ditch
WWII vets had probelms too, Ira Hayes and Audie Murphy both were drunks, the former of a O’ed and died in a ditch
I am going to agree with bth in that who can tell just what winning is in Iraq? We at home are confused as to what it is we are actually doing in Iraq. God help those that are there to figure it out! The cry is to support the soldiers you have to support the their mission. What the hell it the mission? Iraq is about National face and not national security. We fubbed up by the invasion and occupation and now we are trying to hold place till we figure out what to do about it. Hoping we can wait it out till it goes away on its own.
I can not express my sorrow at this news. A moment capured in time that ended with this great effort be a down fall for this soldier and his cause.
It sounds to me that the young man had a drug problem and it affected his rational thinking. There have been some in the military that I have known who have ended their lives through drug use and other forms of self abuse.
what was wrong with them or what caused their problems?
Most of the time it was personal relationships gone bad. The others was the inability to cope with life in general as a fully functional adult.
I’ve known hundreds of medics and some of those who served in or near combat. All still alive and wonderful human beings.
This guy apparently had problems and he chose a bad avenue to deal with it, drugs.
Typical regular – blame the soldier of getting screwed over by the military.
The bad news here?
Somewhere, there are other “soldiers” who probably shot children, dogs, women, or pretty much everything.
They didn’t have a problem with it.
They’ll end up as mid managers in business or in law enforcement, or yeah, politics.
War destroys the good and refines the evil.
WHY DID HE HAVE A DRUG PROBLEM??
Did he have one before going over to join the fight for nothing?
#
bth
Posted July 16, 2008 at 10:20 am | Permalink
Typical regular – blame the soldier of getting screwed over by the military.
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Why not a good story about all the heroic medics Ben?
Why is it that the MSM and the leftist liberals scavenge on the corpses of our soldiers?
Surely there are thousands of stories out there on all the successful, living breathing medics who do wonderful things in life, save lives and have a positive outlook on life.
regular – they are noting the lack of support our wounded soldiers get when they come home. Seems budgets just can’t be stretched enough to provide for them.
As for the MSM – they were right out there with Bush in selling the war and in spreading all the ‘feel-good’ propaganda in the first place.
BlueJay-
http://icantforthelifeofmefigureouthowacandidateschoiceoflapeljewelrymakesadifference,/
Beyond idiot.
#
bth
Posted July 16, 2008 at 10:45 am | Permalink
regular – they are noting the lack of support our wounded soldiers get when they come home. Seems budgets just can’t be stretched enough to provide for them.
As for the MSM – they were right out there with Bush in selling the war and in spreading all the ‘feel-good’ propaganda in the first place.
—————————–
Bull feathers Ben!
I was in the military for many years and know what help is available. I am also familiar with the VA and its system.
People who claim that they cannot get help ain’t seeking it or just too lazy to get it.
As a medic, this guy should have known the ins and out of the system. He had other problems mentally and not just from his time in the war. If he was suicidal, he was just looking for an excuse to end it.
Republican talking points – PTSD – it’s all in your head.
VA Denies PTSD Diagnoses Tied to Costs
June 04, 2008
Associated Press
WASHINGTON – A Veterans Affairs psychologist denies that she was trying to save money when she suggested that counselors make fewer diagnoses of post-traumatic stress disorder in injured Soldiers.
Norma Perez, who helps coordinate a post-traumatic stress disorder clinical team in central Texas, indicated she might have been out of line to cite growing disability claims in her March 20 e-mail titled “Suggestion.” She said her intent was simply to remind staffers that stress symptoms could also be adjustment disorder. The less severe diagnosis could save the VA millions of dollars in disability payouts.
“In retrospect, I realize I did not adequately convey my message appropriately, but my intent was unequivocally to improve the quality of care our veterans received,” Perez said in testimony prepared for delivery Wednesday before a Senate panel.
http://www.military.com/news/article/va-denies-ptsd-diagnoses-tied-to-costs.html
Doesn’t pass the logic test…
I have a young relative who returned from Iraq. He’s on 100 percent medical retirement and receives full pension from the VA. He was wounded four times and has a brain tumor (inoperable they think.)
Yeah, the paperwork is tedious, it’s that way in civilian life as well. The Army and VA asks him now monthly in a survey if there is anything they can do to improve services and care from the VA or the Army.
So no, this former medic didn’t ask for help but self-treated though drugs. That’s never the answer.
PTSD is real.
However, even those with PTSD have a responsibility to seek help and manage their problems.
Been there, done that.
Also, I “sponsored” a Vietnam Vet on his disability claim, for PTSD and other problems.
By that I mean that the VA does not allow attorneys, or anyone else, to charge a fee for filling out paperwork for Veterans, prior to end of the “Administrative Hearing” process.
This is an old Post Civil War, Reconstruction era law, I think. I also think it is obsolete. I think vets would get better service if Attorneys and others could charge for advice to Veterans.
I had to sign a form, for a Veteran, saying I would cover any legal fees prior to the filing of any Court filing. A stupid formality. I got another form, from the law firm, saying they would not charge me, for specific services.
I still do paperwork, pro-bono, for the VA Pension. That benefit is for War Time Vets who need “Aid and Attendance”. It is also payable to the spouse of the qualified Vet, if the spouse needs nursing home or similar care.
The problem with these “Veteran Suicide” cases?
What is the statistical number of suicides for the general population, at this age?
What is the statistical number for the general population, for substance abuse, at this age?
Having said that, I think Veterans who exhibit substance abuse or PTSD should be cared for out of VA funds.
Lets avoid the knee-jerk assumption that war, somehow, CAUSED these problems, in all cases.
Where is the “peer-reviewed research”???
A genuine tragedy.
Those who seek to turn this tragedy for political purposes argue that his service in Iraq “caused” this tragedy. Perhaps, but Iraq isn’t the issue. This tragedy says nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the Iraq conflict. Those who would use this tragedy for political purposes are indeed vultures.
Young men have been going off to combat for thousands of years, and there is no sign that the pattern will change in any foreseeable future. It appears to be the nature of man.
And combat has always been traumatic to those who survive it, leaving psychological scars. It was true for the Roman legions, for the soldier at Valley Forge, for the young men at Gettysburg, at Bastogne, at Stalingrad, and at each and every one of the millions of places where young men have done battle with each other. War is Hell. It has always been Hell.
Yes, we should give every bit of assistance we can to these young men and women. And for some, it won’t be enough, and the wounds are just too deep. For some, the tragedies of their later lives are unrelated to their combat experience, thought it’s often hard to know just why these tragedies occur. That’s not a failure of the young men, nor necessarily a failure of the support systems we try to put in place. It is a testiment to the hell that is combat and a reminder that not all casualties are to the flesh.
And it is why we should avoid putting our young men and women in harms way unless absulutely necessary.
And it is why we should avoid putting our young men and women in harms way unless absulutely necessary.
Seems we haven’t learned that lesson in the past 50 years.
From The F*cking Article:
He’d been in and out of treatment. He couldn’t, his mother told the media, “get over the war.”
Looks to me like he’d sought help. . .it just didn’t work.
How ghastly is must be for those who are trying to keep people alive and functioning amid the front-line carnage. It gives a sense of purpose, I’m sure, but I suspect a sense of futility as well.
Rage
Posted July 16, 2008 at 12:28 pm | Permalink
From The F*cking Article:
He’d been in and out of treatment. He couldn’t, his mother told the media, “get over the war.”
——————————-
In and out of treatment is the key. He didn’t stick with it.
In the military and I’m sure in the civilian world, they call that AMA (against medical advice.)
Through his illegal drug use, the soldier tried to self-medicate and rationalized his way into suicide. Even drug users that never have been in the military have a high rate of suicide. Illegal drugs alter your ability to reason out problems.
His mother blames the drug use on the war.
She might be right.
However, she might also be wrong.
We just do not know.
Most parents feel an intense sense of guilt, in a suicide or an overdose case.
It is only natural, as a survival tactic, to shift all of that horrible guilt on to someone else.
Shut up with your high and mighty, holier than thou bs about politicizing this story. It’s political. It’s getting it’s just politicization.
Besides, you being the prosecutor, you would know vultures.
These soldiers are only heroes to the chicken-hawks when it is expediant to their bottom line’s.
Pleefer
Again, show us a study that says drug abuse is higher among veterans than among the general population.
Show us a study that says suicide is higher among veterans that among the general population.
You can not find such a study.
So, to make rash claims is to unjustly misuse these cases for political gain.
I gain nothing from this story and this war being political.
And I care not about where drug abuse is higher. I care that this was yet another vet…(hero) who fell between the cracks even after he was a useful propaganda tool. He should have felt confident that all of us who love our hero’s would make sure he was taken care of. But alas, church goers who like to feel good and pray for our troops and dummies waving their plastic flag magnets weren’t there either. Politicians are sacrificing these soldiers (and I mean that literally).
Pall, Reggie,
The soldiers I’ve talked to say that the CO’s takes a very dim view of personnel seeking help for PTSD, does everything it can to discourage seeking treatment and often finds excuses to discharge them for”pre-existing medical reasons” so the VA doesn’t have to treat them. Did you maybe consider that a reason for “In and out of treatment…. He didn’t stick with it” might be because the military wouldn’t honor its obligations and Pall wouldn’t sell him health insurance?
Some churchy person will try and tell this guy that killing that little kid, although an accident, was justified and right. But this soldier (with a sense of morality) knows that the “collateral damage” is still tough to live with. And sometimes to die for.
Pleefer is exhibit one. ‘Nuff said.
Pathetic.
Just the same as any and ALL other wars. No difference. WWII it was called “Shell Shock”
And the nonsense about Suicides being higher etc is all crap. In fact suicide is lower in the military groups due to training.
But the media has a certain “narrative” they follow especially when its a Republican administration. You notice there was no blowback on Clinton for the Kosovo war etc. Media sucked it up hook and line. They even parade out General Wesley Clark as some hero Democratic General…until you mention he was FIRED while in the field.
Jed
Posted July 16, 2008 at 1:57 pm | Permalink
Pall, Reggie,
The soldiers I’ve talked to say that the CO’s takes a very dim view of personnel seeking help for PTSD, does everything it can to discourage seeking treatment and often finds excuses to discharge them for”pre-existing medical reasons” so the VA doesn’t have to treat them. Did you maybe consider that a reason for “In and out of treatment…. He didn’t stick with it” might be because the military wouldn’t honor its obligations and Pall wouldn’t sell him health insuranc
===================================
B.S.
To assess a malingering charge to a military person takes a good deal of evidence by Commanders.
Only time I’ve personally known the military to refuse treatment for someone is when some older pilots had gotten Lasix surgery for their myopia, which is against military policy to do. As a result of their lasix surgery, the pilots had scarring and ’starburst’ effects in their night vision which rendered them ineligible for flying status.
There is nothing a military commander can do if a soldier wants to see a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist or just a medical doctor. If it’s a non-emergency, Commanders can strongly suggest it be done later at more convenient time of them mission.
Want to get fired as a Commander? Then get in the way of a military person seeking medical care. You’ll find your briefcase and a plane ticket at the front gate.
Rage
Posted July 16, 2008 at 12:22 pm | Permalink
And it is why we should avoid putting our young men and women in harms way unless absulutely necessary.
Seems we haven’t learned that lesson in the past 50 years.
____
Rage, I don’t think human beings will ever learn that lesson. We are human beings. As a species, we are inherently greedy, inherently flawed, inherently violent. It’s no more changable than the moon can be removed from the sky.
It’s no more changable than the moon can be removed from the sky.
Maybe so, but those of knew better in 2002 would like to think mass insanity can ocassionally be checked. I noticed we haven’t invaded Iran (yet).
Intelligence is not a survivable trait, at least I see no evidence of it. I do think that humans are inherently good, but through a sense of nationalistic, bullsh.it “patriotism” we are compelled to fight wars that those who started them would never do. And they laugh at those poor, dumb animals…the soldier. Those are the word’s of Henry Kissinger, not me.
See for yourselves.
I think there is a good sign in that regard rage.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25696176/
Hopefully this is a sign of people listening to the Robert Gates types of the nation.
Rage, I hope so. We may be a violent as a species, but we need not let that violence go on unchecked. We can make rational decisions.
The topic of this post, however, is a tragedy, and just one of untold others, all over the world. It is part of the cost of war: any war, at any time, for any cause, however just or unjust.
War, for any soldier, at any time, in any place, is hell. Combat leaves scars. And vultures like pleefer use those scars, those tragedies for their own gain.
And that makes this tragedy doubly sad. The family of this young man will have their son’s broken body and mind paraded and bandied about and used for political purposes. The Eagle itself is doing so with this posting.
Some people have no shame.
GMC70,
Great posts here. Very well said.
We are allowed to politicize the deaths on the other side though, children and all.
What “gain” do I get? Do I give a sh.it about political gain? I’m speaking my peace, regardless of whether or not I get any kick backs from a special interest group by speaking it. No this is a moral issue. And you people get on here all the time speaking of the benefits of these folks going over there, ie; political benefits.
I’m saying you all are full of crap. You’ll find anyway you can to take the heat off of yourselves, so you can sleep at night. You’ll not admit that maybe this war did cause this one man horrible side effects of it. When I speak my mind, you call me a “vulture” like I’m going to benefit from saying anything. And end it there. I’m a nobody, exercising my 1st Amendment while I still can. As this war has nothing to do with protecting my Constitution.
Oops, spoke it again.
My brother-in-law spent a year driving trucks over in Iraq. He was never a big drinker before he left – in fact, in the 6 years I had known him at that time, I had never even SEEN him with a drink. Since he has been back, I haven’t seen him without one. From the few comments he has made, and the things my sister has told me about his behaviors, I would venture a strong guess he is suffering from PTSD.
That being said, as much as you would like to deny it, the military does have a “men must be strong” mentality. And that mentality does not lend itself to talking to someone about your problems, especially therpists. There is an idea of needing to handle it on your own.
This is simple speculation, but I would place money on the fact that a good portion of the reason why this soldier was “in and out” of treatment is due to the fact that he probably felt guilty for seeking treatment in the first place – because a “true” soldier wouldn’t need it. There are THOUSANDS of soldiers out there from all wars who think this same way. You see a greater number of PTSD diagnoses from this war, simply because it is now a recognized medical issue, where before it was not. But ask one of the many Vietnam vets who drink themselves to sleep at night why they don’t see someone for their issues and I bet you would get the same response you get from an Iraqi war vet – “real” soldiers don’t need help dealing with their problems. It’s a mentality that our military perpetuates. THAT’S why a majority of these vets are not getting the help they need.
I love how this man DIED because he simply couldn’t get past the war, as no doubt many others have and will in the coming years, and all your answers to it are “It must be his fault!”. What if it isn’t his fault at all? What if the military, or this country, failed him, even the slightest little bit? You cannot deny the possibility that this is true. And yet here you are, ready to lambast him for his failure to deal with his problems, instead of questioning why he had the problems in the first place. THAT is what we should be doing. Did the man have a drug problem before he left for Iraq? Likely not, given he was an active duty soldier (not say it isn’t possible, just that it is highly unlikely). So what would lead him to use drugs? Why isn’t someone looking at that, instead of blaming this young man?
Wasn’t their a big brew-ha recently about how the Pentagon does everything it can to deny benefits to vets labeling everything a pre-existing condition.
GMC the Swiss among other seems to figured out how to solve its probelms without resorting to war.
Tom –
On the contrary. The Swiss take advantage of two things to make themselves invasion proof.
1) Their terrain is not remotely conducive to any sort of invasion, something they take advantage of. Tough to march armies, or drive tanks, through the Alps.
2) Their population is armed – literally. The nation is in fact a militia as envisioned by the founders. Full automatics, in homes. It is, as Yamamoto once described the US, “a rifle behind every blade of grass.” Not an attractive target for attack.
In addition, they have made themselves indespensible by being Europe’s banker, where the wealthy (of every nation) can hide their riches.
The Swiss do not overcome human nature; on the contrary, they understand it well, and work to take advantage of it (in their banking laws – taking advantage of greed), and even given that they take action to defend themselves.
You’ll have to come up with a much better example than that, my friend.
Anon1 – your story about your brother reminds me of my step-brother after his time in Nam. He came back very much changed – and not for the better.
Has bush given this guy a medal yet? He did alot showing ‘the other things’ we do over there.
True story (I think). A few years before the outbreak of World War I. Kaiser Wilhelm II paid a visit to the King of Switzerland. The Swiss ruler and the German Kaiser spent an afternoon watching the entire 500,000 man Swiss Army on their summer maneuvers. The German Kaiser was clearly impressed as he watched the sharply dressed and well trained Swiss Army. That evening after a state dinner, followed by cigars and brandy, the Kaiser turned to the King and said “my dear King, you have a very impressive army, but they number only a half million men. What if I put a million man army on your border and marched in”. The Swiss King thought about it for a moment and then replied, “its simple, my dear Kaiser, each of my men would have to fire twice”. Germany never invaded Switzerland in World War I or World War II. What does it all mean? I don’t know, but its a good story, don’t you think?
Reggie,
“To assess a malingering charge to a military person takes a good deal of evidence by Commanders.”
I wasn’t talking about malingering charges, I was mentioning what appears to be the search for (or invention of) some supposed psychological problem prior to the soldier’s enlistment in order for the military to discharge a service member with PTSD and deny VA benefits because the PTSD was supposedly caused by “a pre-existing psychological condition” rather than the battlefield trauma the military would be responsible for. I learned about this dodge from most of a friend’s VFW post over Memorial day. These men are feeling pretty screwed over by the services. If these guys are a representative sample in any sense, the treatment of our casualties in this war is a scandal that could damage our military for generations to come.
Also, I’ll bet that you were never told that a major recruiting source for military physicians are doctors joining the military to avoid multiple civilian malpractice suits. Recruiters go after them and sign them up on the basis that they can’t be sued while in the military, and the statute of limitation will have run out by the time their hitch is up. This isn’t always the case; I’ve known several damned good reconstructive plastic surgery residents who joined because there would be plenty of difficult cases to challenge them. But there are more and more incompetents being recruited to fill the necessary slots, and I hate to see our children in the hands of quacks!
BTW, that’s an ideal forum
>>>> “Has bush given this guy a medal yet? He did alot showing ‘the other things’ we do over there.”
Of course not, Bush doesn’t want the CNN watching American public to see all the good, positive acts of American soldiers. He along with McCain both want nothing more than to sell the war to a country not buying into his BS anymore in hopes of justifying us being over there another 4 …6…50…100 years. Joseph Dwyer deserves more than just a medal!. The death of Joseph Dwyer should be a wake up call and a cause for more funds being used to help more men and women like him struggling everyday with PTSD.
#
Jed
Posted July 17, 2008 at 4:02 am | Permalink
Reggie,
“To assess a malingering charge to a military person takes a good deal of evidence by Commanders.”
I wasn’t talking about malingering charges, I was mentioning what appears to be the search for (or invention of) some supposed psychological problem prior to the soldier’s enlistment in order for the military to discharge a service member with PTSD and deny VA benefits because the PTSD was supposedly caused by “a pre-existing psychological condition” rather than the battlefield trauma the military would be responsible for. I learned about this dodge from most of a friend’s VFW post over Memorial day. These men are feeling pretty screwed over by the services. If these guys are a representative sample in any sense, the treatment of our casualties in this war is a scandal that could damage our military for generations to come.
Also, I’ll bet that you were never told that a major recruiting source for military physicians are doctors joining the military to avoid multiple civilian malpractice suits. Recruiters go after them and sign them up on the basis that they can’t be sued while in the military, and the statute of limitation will have run out by the time their hitch is up. This isn’t always the case; I’ve known several damned good reconstructive plastic surgery residents who joined because there would be plenty of difficult cases to challenge them. But there are more and more incompetents being recruited to fill the necessary slots, and I hate to see our children in the hands of quacks!
—————————————–
Try and concentrate on the issue. Can’t switch from one bogus claim to another and expect to make a point.
The death of this soldier is tragic. However, I’m betting he knew he had a substance abuse problem and like most with this problem rationalized his usage and mental problems.
Using mind and psyche altering drugs is not a way to deal with reality nor is it in one’s best interest if they have psychological problems as the drug user will delay or run from any help he might have received.
Not everyone who has been in combat meets the criteria of post traumatic disorder. There are military personnel who adjust quite well to the circumstances and only need to have time outs to alleviate the stress of being under constant stress.
If one suspects they have PTSD, then they should take every opportunity to deal with it and their Commanders and other leadership should be trained to recognize it.
Rescue workers in general, which includes combat medics often having post traumatic disorders, because they have no way of extracting a pound of flesh for the tragedies they see. The combat soldier gets some alleviation from ‘taking out’ someone.
I bet if there was a close examination of the records and the actions taken by the young man, one would find a tragic collection of failures, including those of responsibility by the young medic. He knew what to do and didn’t do it. The old expression that Doctors make the worst patients is often true and this applies to medics.
Seeing death and horrifying injuries without resolution is hard to deal with.
The best advocate for oneself is often the person with the problem, you.