Barack Obama continues to court evangelicals, telling an audience Tuesday that he would not only continue but also expand President Bush’s faith-based initiative, which seeks to enlist churches’ help in solving social problems.
“The challenges we face today, from putting people back to work to improving our schools, from saving our planet to combating HIV/AIDS to ending genocide, are simply too big for government to solve alone,” Obama said in his remarks. “We need all hands on deck.”
He faces one immediate obstacle: the perceived failure of Bush’s faith-based program. How will Obama make the idea work better?
And some Democrats on the left are sure to object to Obama’s support for allowing religious groups that receive federal funds to hire and fire based on applicants’ faith.
53 Comments
Boy, something went wrong. All the comments lost and the possessives looking hinky.
The Golden Rule
In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets. Christian, Jesus, Matthew 7:12
One word which sums up the basis of all good conduct….loving-kindness. Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself. Confucius,
This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Hinduism Mahabharata 5:1517
Not one of you truly believes until you wish for others what you wish for yourself. - Islam The Prophet Muhammad,
One should treat all creatures in the world as one would like to be treated. Jainism, Mahavira, Sutrakritanga
What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary. Go and learn it. Judaism ,Hillel, Talmud, Shabbath 31a
I am a stranger to no one; and no one is a stranger to me. Indeed, I am a friend to all. Sikhism Guru Granth Sahib, pg. 1299
Regard your neighbour’s gain as your own gain and your neighbour’s loss as your own loss. Taoism, Lao Tzu, T’ai Shang Kan Ying P’ien,
We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. Unitarian principle
Do not do unto others whatever is injurious to yourself. Zoroastrianism, Shayast-na-Shayast 13.29
We are as much alive as we keep the earth alive. Native Spirituality Chief Dan George
Lay not on any soul a load that you would not wish to be laid upon you, and desire not for anyone the things you would not desire for yourself. Baha’i Faith, Baha’u'llah, Gleanings
Treat not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Buddhism , The Buddha, Udana-Varga 5.1
I really love that icon for the thread.
Obama was ‘agin’ Bush’s faith based initiatives until he was ‘fer’ it.
So far we have Obama:
• Supports wiretapping
• Supports guns
• Supports federal money to religious groups
• Staying in Iraq
. Supports Faith
So to follow the lead from the last election we must insist on:
“IMPEACH NOW!”
“And some Democrats on the left are sure to object to Obama’s support for allowing religious groups that receive federal funds to hire and fire based on applicants’ faith.”
Wrong. Obama’s program would deny funds to those organizations that discriminate based on religious creed or sexual orientation.
That is a huge difference between Obama’s plan and Bush’s program.
“Obama proposes allowing religious institutions to hire and fire based on religion only in the non-taxpayer-funded portions of their activities - consistent with current federal, state and local laws. “That makes perfect sense,” he said.”
“Where there are state or local laws prohibiting hiring choices based on sexual orientation in the federally funded portion of the programs, he said he would support those being applied.”
http://www.kansas.com/wireupdates/story/450663.html
““Obama proposes allowing religious institutions to hire and fire based on religion only in the non-taxpayer-funded portions of their activities - consistent with current federal, state and local laws. “That makes perfect sense,” he said.””
Makes sense to me.
Sense, Sense…how dare you. What does Sense have to do with it.
If International ANSWER and Move On can operate without it…
Then so can we.
We want him Impeached before he is elected. Then we wont have to later.
I contribute money to Catholic Charities - and have made sure that it is used to help people regardless of whether they are Catholic or not. I would tend to use the same criterian here. I’m looking only at the effectiveness of their programs and methods.
Let me tell you, once I needed a little assistance from one of these taxpayer funded bible based groups. I was given a lecture when I applied by the secretary on how if I only had a religious home, that the church community would be more willing to help me out.
I told her, “so you say I should join a church so that I can see what I can get out of the other members”?
Well she didn’t like that so much.
#
Political_mama
Posted July 2, 2008 at 12:58 pm | Permalink
Let me tell you, once I needed a little assistance from one of these taxpayer funded bible based groups. I was given a lecture when I applied by the secretary on how if I only had a religious home, that the church community would be more willing to help me out.
I told her, “so you say I should join a church so that I can see what I can get out of the other members”?
Well she didn’t like that so much.
———————————–
(cough)
Name the specific program and where it was.
Shut up, McCluer.
Clark the liar chimes after his hang over.
Government and Religion walking hand in hand to conquer the woes of society.
Gee, didn’t we go thru that during the middle ages?
“Clark the liar chimes after his hang over.”
One of the two admitted liars on this Blog has the gall to call ME a liar. That is funny.
Are you JM today, McCluer, or are you back to denying it?
And, for the record, your comment was only meant to embarrass P Mom, so STFU.
Liar.
To get an idea why giving tax money to churches is a bad idea look at Colson’s church.
http://rawstory.com/rawreplay/?p=1401
The church has a $20 million airplane, it’s own runway, and the pastor lives in a huge mansion. Yeah, religion is all about charity.
In the Catholic realm a $5.5 million lawsuit was just settled for the Catholic church’s role in protecting pedophiles. I could blame them for hiding Nazis but Protestants did their fair share in that.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0129371520080701?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
So let’s just open up the government coffers to criminal organizations to futher suck at the teat of the taxpayer. Maybe we could give Bill Warren some extra millions and he could run a charity too.
Clark is correct: There had been chatter on the Net suggesting that Obama was going to throw the First Amendment overboard and, after his annoying FISA capitulation, I would have believed it.
The New York Times is reporting the same thing:
But Mr. Obama’s plan pointedly departed from the Bush administration’s stance on one fundamental issue: whether religious organizations that get federal money for social services can take faith into account in their hiring. Mr. Bush has said yes. Mr. Obama said no.
“If you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them — or against the people you hire — on the basis of their religion,” Mr. Obama said. “Federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples and mosques can only be used on secular programs.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/politics/02obama.html
However, I still think you open the door to wink-wink nudge-nudge religious pressure if the organization itself is not set up on secular terms. Several churches have set up just such organziations (see e.g. Catholic Charities, Lutheran Social Services, Satanist Mission for Poverty. . .okay, I made up the last one!).
P.S. By the way: the FISA vote was scuttled–revote probably on July 8. Let your voice be heard!
“Obama proposes allowing religious institutions to hire and fire based on religion only in the non-taxpayer-funded portions of their activities”
Let me get this straight, either a taxpayer funded religious institution gets to hire and fire based on religion or it does not.
If a church runs a taxpayer funded soup kitchen and private school, will it still be allowed to hire and fire its school teachers based solely upon religious criteria? Apparently, Obama thinks so. Is it not possible then for the institution that oversees both the kitchen and the school to divert excees money from the tax payer funded soup kitchen to its school if it is in fact the same institution?
YES, which is why the law that Obama proposes Does NOT make sense.
The government should make it easy for such charities to operate, but should not directly fund them. Doing so would mean that the church run soup kitchen is no longer really church run if the church has no say over how it runs and staffs the soup kitchen.
Let the government set up it’s own soup kitchen.
“excees” should be “excess”
WSClark
Posted July 2, 2008 at 1:16 pm | Permalink
“Clark the liar chimes after his hang over.”
One of the two admitted liars on this Blog has the gall to call ME a liar. That is funny.
Are you JM today, McCluer, or are you back to denying it?
And, for the record, your comment was only meant to embarrass P Mom, so STFU.
——————————
Clark the liar appears to have his panties in a wad today.
Is it not possible then for the institution that oversees both the kitchen and the school to divert excees money from the tax payer funded soup kitchen to its school if it is in fact the same institution?
Any workable funding program would have to insist on separate books, but I agree that’s it’s a bad idea (My Gawd! We agree on something!)
“YES, which is why the law that Obama proposes Does NOT make sense.”
Then cancel the program - either no discrimination or no program. End of story.
And Lutheran Social Services - may every god damned one of them rot in the fires of Hell - and soon.
“Clark the liar appears to have his panties in a wad today.”
Hey, JM, did you serve in ‘Nam or are you claiming that you were too young again today?
Liar.
#
WSClark
Posted July 2, 2008 at 1:30 pm | Permalink
“Clark the liar appears to have his panties in a wad today.”
Hey, JM, did you serve in ‘Nam or are you claiming that you were too young again today?
Liar.
————————-
I think Clark the liar is gay for me, he gives me so much attention.
Clark, were you adopted through Lutheran Social Services? Because I was. That’s why I’m asking.
I think that while there are a lot of good things about working throuhg faith-based there will also have to be oversight. Situations like what p-mama described should shut the place down. On the other hand, I know that when a hungry person shows up at the Lords Diner they don’t ask to see his Catholic membership card.
Regarding the Lord’s Diner Ben, do they receive any federal funding from the faith based initiative?
The Faith Based Initiative will cause more bureaucracy and problems, than it will help.
I’m not sure VET - I think they do get some food aid. This is, however, an example of the sort of thing I would support. Also the homeless initiative which is also coming (at least partly) from some of the churches.
An observation: some churches teach that ecuminicalism is evil (the Awana program among them). It is the very ecuminical churches who are doing this work of ‘feed the hungry’ regardless of who they are.
“Clark, were you adopted through Lutheran Social Services? Because I was. That’s why I’m asking.”
Yes, and I sincerely hope that they did you better than they did me.
I had wonderful adoptive parents. I was lucky. But I have my own issues with how they kept records and how “helpful” they’ve been with finding my birth parents. Not.
I’m sorry for your pain. It’s not easy being adopted, even if you have the best parents in the world.
“But I have my own issues with how they kept records and how “helpful” they’ve been with finding my birth parents. Not.”
I found my birth families about ten years ago - I missed a lot in my life - although my actual birth parents would need a lot of improvement just to reach POS status.
Were you born in Kansas? At last count, Kansas and Alaska were the only two states that allowed open adoption records.
True enough Clark. And the info I have did indeed come from the court system and my original birth certificate. LSS was NO help.
Sorry, I didnt answer your question. Yes, I was born in Topeka and adopted through the Winfield office of LSS, which is now closed. I contacted the Wichita office some time ago, and was received less than cordially.
That’s interesting to hear Clark. Now I know how my twin sister and I were able to meet. Some lady at the Maude Carpenter Children’s home let my sister see the record and “went to get a cup of coffee”
That was about the only good thing that the Maude Carpenter Children’s home did that I can be thankful for. Get out of the way and let twins find each other.
KSFG, how did you get your original birth certificate? So far for me, no luck.
LLVET, my adoptive mother had a copy of it. But as Clark noted, if you were born in Kansas, I think you should be able to get one from Vital Statistics. It’s helpful if you already know your birth name, or your birth mother’s name. I found that out through my adoptive Mom also, and then opened the court records.
I know it was painful for Mom, but she knew I needed to know. Bless her.
No trace of my father. Just listed as “unknown” which, of course, may or may not be true.
I’d like to know if I have siblings. And a little medical history would be helpful too!
My family name is Crockett.
I think faith based programs are good…. but the fears I had about it are more true under Obama if it is true that:
“Wrong. Obama’s program would deny funds to those organizations that discriminate based on religious creed or sexual orientation.”
If that is true the government will basically be paying the church to change it’s doctrine.
That would truely be one step closer in the church simply becoming another wing of the government.
You would see churches which do good, left out while they watch other chruches which embrace secular humanism and sacrifice their doctrines for government funding.
Also those churches which are already liberal and have sacrificed doctrine would be rewarded while those that have not will not.
Now we are talking scary.
I am sure you liberals won’t mind it one bit at all though.
Fortunately for me, I was born in such a small “town” in such a sparsely inhabited country that obtaining my original birth certificate was incredibly easy - and I also remembered by birth name - the whole process of finding family took about 90 days.
I wish all adoptees success in their pursuit of birth family.
KSFG. When I asked for it, they gave me the one with my adopted parents name. In a way, meeting my (what I call biological siblings) was cool, but it ended up being very confusing.
Now my twin sister was able to get her original one because she was put in several foster homes but never adopted outright.
Ditto Clark. I’ve had no success, and my mother would be 71 or so. That means time is running out.
Nathan?
“That would truely be one step closer in the church simply becoming another wing of the government.”
As opposed, I guess, to the government becoming another wing of the church.
I have always said that CHURCH people should be more afraid of the church/state merger than secularists. It could so easily be turned against the churches.
Ask my relatives in Russia….
That’s nice Nathaniel.
LLTVET, have you talked to an adoption lawyer? I dont think Kansas can seal a birth certificate. As Clark noted, Kansas has always had very open adoption laws.
I am an only child, so meeting siblings would be very cool. I have no intention of forming a relationship with them or other family members and am not trying to cause trouble or disrupt their lives. I just want to know some things.
And, wistfully, it would be nice to see that I looked like someone. I so envy family resemblance.
“You would see churches which do good, left out while they watch other chruches which embrace secular humanism and sacrifice their doctrines for government funding.”
Tough shit - no discrimination or no funding.
“I’ve had no success, and my mother would be 71 or so.”
Ms. Grrl, send me a private e-mail and maybe I can give you some helpful hints.
WSClark52@gmail.com.
KSFG, it was pretty cool when I found out that Laura and I had the same little quirks. It was strange because we were separated since 18 months of age, but blood was thicker than water.
I will try an adoption lawyer again. Last time I did it, he tried to get me to sue the state for separating twins. (rolls eyes)
And just why would I give you any such information McCluer?
Idiot.
OK — Obama wants to DO AWAY with the Bush plan on faith based initiatives… in that Obama does NOT want to allow hiring/firing decisions made on the basis of religious belief… IF the group is receiving Fed. funds… IF the group does NOT receive Fed. Funds, it doesnt matter who they hire or fire, or what they require for beliefs….
Example >>>> Church ABC runs a feeding program or homeless people… They apply for, AND receive Fed. Funds for assistance…
A local Buddhist follower comes to the Director and wants to work the food line, for $5.00 per hour(what is usually paid to work food lines at homeless feeding programs)… But the Buddhist is told they cannot work there because of their Non-Christian beliefs….
Church ABC would then LOSE their Fed. Funding….
Example 2 >>>>
Chuch XYZ runs a Scout Troop… They receive NO FED FUNDS for the operation of the Troop…. A young man, who professes to be part of a local Wiccan Group, applies for the position of Asst. Scout Master. The Pastor of Church XYZ informs the young man that one must be a Christian, and join the congregation, in order to be employed there….
The Church XYZ is within its rights to hold such a ruling…
A year goes by… The Church XYZ applies for, and receives, Fed. Funds for purchasing some new camping equipment for their Scout Troop…
The young wiccan man hears about this, and returns to apply for the position of Asst. Scout Master once again…
Again, the Pastor tells him that he has to be a member of the Church and a Christian, in order to be hired as Asst. Scout Master…
The young man’s attorney writes to the Pastor, that as long as the Church receives Fed. Funding to help with the Scout Troop, they cannot discriminate on their hiring practices, and demand that their Scout staff be Christian and belong to that Church…
This has been the case for a long time… This is why I normally advise congregations NOT to accept Fed. funding for Church projects… Period….
Obama now claims that he supported the Welfare Reform Bill a Republican Congress passed, and President Clinton signed.
This was a dumb mistake, for Obama.
Obama was absoluletly opposed to Welfare Reform.
Obama is on the record as being against Welfare Reform, and this will hurt him — If and only if McCain is smart enough to use this issue against Obama.
On the Faith Based stuff, do you folks realize that “left leaning” churches benefit greatly from these “Faith based initiatives”?
“Obama now claims that he supported the Welfare Reform Bill a Republican Congress passed, and President Clinton signed.”
Okay, Paul.
Link?
P.S. Adoptees: thanks for the enlightenment, though I’m not sure I’d share that much on an online forum.
Just sayin’.
P.S. By and large, my favorite response to Nathan’s bigoted crap:
That’s nice Nathaniel.
kfg
The 1920 Federal census for Kansas shows 52 entries for “Crockett”.
I know that is WAY earlier than you were born. That is way before even your parents would have been born. But your grandfather might be among them.
For what it is worth.
KFG,
You probably won’t see this, so I’ll contact you privately, too, but just in case, I was adopted through Catholic Social Services. I found and was in contact with my birthmother about 24 years ago. I’d be happy to share my journey and how I obtained information with you or anyone else interested.
PreD - how did you find CSS to work with? Cath Charities has been my family’s biggest avenue for giving in recent years. Even though I am NOT Catholic I like the way they operate.
2 Trackbacks
[...] only continue but also expand President Bush??s faith-based initiative, which seeks to enlist churchhttp://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/07/obama%e2%80%99s-faith-based-initiative/Critical to SuccessHillary needs your help. With less than 24 hours left until the Pennsylvania [...]
[...] but also expand President Bush??s faith-based initiative, which seeks to enlist churches?? help inhttp://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/07/obama%e2%80%99s-faith-based-initiative/Faith-based fudging. - By Mark A.R. Kleiman - Slate Magazine… President George W. Bush’s favorite [...]