Per a New York Times article: “According to data compiled by Andrew Tyndall, a television consultant who monitors the three network evening newscasts, coverage of Iraq has been ‘massively scaled back this year.’ Almost halfway into 2008, the three newscasts have shown 181 weekday minutes of Iraq coverage, compared with 1,157 minutes for all of 2007.”
A pro/con on Wednesday’s Opinion pages debated why this is happening. Cal Thomas blamed the decline in coverage on the liberal media not wanting to report good news. But Frank Rich noted that there isn’t much reporting on the bad news either, and he argued that the public has made up its mind on Iraq and is more interested in “Cindy versus Michelle, not Shiites versus Sunnis.”
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227 Comments
Naw, the MSM just hates admitting that George Bush was right and his policies are working.
Want to confirm it? Just look at the majority Democratic Congress who continually supports the war effort by financing it.
Of course, these same Democrats will speak out of the sides of their mouth to their constituents with their version of how things are going.
If there is one thing Democrats cannot stand is hearing the truth especially when it comes from a Republican point of view.
Of course, some Democrats got it right. Like Toby Keith who has written several songs for the GI’s to boost their morale. There have been other entertainers as well, that know that supporting the troops is more important than their own opinions about the war.
This positive attitude has influence and that influence is positive.
This younger general of America’s finest are to be congratulated and held as heroes when America needed them the most. Out of this group will come our country’s leaders.
I am proud to be an American, was always proud and I don’t have to wait on someone I know to run for president in order to be proud like Michelle Obama.
The MSM has seen their ratings fall when the ever knowledgeable public has found out their misleading tactics and changed channels or stop subscribing.
The truth is what the American public wants to hear, not some opinion piece from either side.
I hope the MSM has learned its lesson.
In the words of HLP, when it comes to Iraq, “move along–nothin’ to see here.” At least for the Wingnuts who want us all to forget that their candidate said the U.S. could be in Iraq for 100 or, heck, even a thousand years.
The Repukes want Iraq disappeared, just like they’ve disappeared Habeas Corpus. And right on cue, the “liberal media” complies.
And before Nathan and Franklin start snivelling, that was ABSOLUTELY what McCain said, ABSOLUTELY in context.
Pavlov really had it right.
In a world where People magazine is one of the top sellers, while Science Diges or the Smithsonian magazine is relegated to “egghead” status and where the National Enquirer and Weekly World News and the like sell MILLIONS each week, you have to ask?
In a world where People magazine is one of the top sellers, while the Smithsonian magazine and the like is relegated to “egghead” status and where the National Enquirer and Weekly World News and the like sell MILLIONS each week, you have to ask?
It is because we are failing.
You cannot defeat a tactic. Especially one that grows because of America’s interventions.
“Liberal” media is laughable on the face of it. Do you see anyone being critical of the Feredral Reserve? Do any of tell you that the BIGGEST reason for rising prices is the inflation of the money supply? Do any of them appose the Foriegn Policy of nation building?
The answer to all of these questions is an emphatic, “No.
Please educate yourselves of money, finance, credit, banking, accounting and economics. Even if you don’t agree, you still have more knowledge than before. You will also be a better business person and investor. These are the backbone of society. You do yourself a great disservice if you don’t understand these subjects.
Please be more informed than the soundbites, and media headlines. The information is there for all of you. Do your due dilligence and make an informed decision.
1330 AM has a catchy slogan, “Listen more, know more”. That may be true, but you have to think about what it is you know. Sometimes someone who is completely ignorant is more informed than someone who absorbs bad information.
The word Liberal has been twisted into an evil word. Liberalism is not socialism. The fact that Americans have allowed to word to be twisted so badly is disturbing in and of itself.
What littlejohn said.
dday, over at Digby, has a good take on the Congresses rolling over (or is that bending over), and funding George Bush’s Excellent Imperial Adventure for yet another year.
“As usual, when America sees a war slipping away, they bomb the f*ck out of the ground. And the bipartisan coalition of the United States government enthusiastically endorses and funds the slaughter. Let’s be very clear – your representatives bought another year’s worth of stories like the one above, with no gain in national security, a stretching of the US military to the very breaking point should anything else crop up, and no effort to manage or deal with the underlying root causes in the country we unnecessarily invaded.”
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com
Iraq’s future is so bright, John McCain has to wear shades.
The spending that our Congress is allowing is going to bankrupt our country.
If this fact doesn’t wake some of you up, I don’t know if you can be saved.
You need to get your apathy in check and start doing something. We cannot sustain what we are doing. We need to cut back and learn to be self sufficient as a people.
I’m only preaching facts here. Any disagreements can be taken up with economic and monetary theory.
Every nation that followed this path in the past has failed. We are not above that inevitable fact.
Get it together folks. Get out of debt. Think and grow wealthy before it is too late.
CF –
Putting “absolutely” in all caps – twice – does make the statement true. Sorry.
Why no more coverage from Iraq than we have?
1) because the reality, or at least a significatn part of it, no longer fits the liberal media’s (and yes, CF, your buried head notwithstanding, it is still for the most part that) preconcieved narrative. The narrative is preset – the war in Iraq is lost. Items which don’t fit that narrative are summarily cast aside.
2) the media is a business, and the public doesn’t want to watch. Other stories (the elections, in large part) squeeze out coverage of Iraq in the reach for ratings.
S’cuse, please – should be ” . . does not make the staement true.”
Resume your regularly scheduled squabling.
I haven’t noticed any charming posts regarding the Wichita Eagle being the Obama Election HQ lately?
So now is the Wichita Eagle the John McCain election headquarters?
Did the Wichita Eagle change the campaign that they were headquartering?
(Irony off)
Perhaps they got the message LLVET?
That is, under November gets a bit closer.
Smaller government. Less spending. Noninterventionism. Return of our liberty. The r3VOLution lives. Great to see so many understand the message. So sad some don’t.
GMC70,
Quite a feat there, counting to the number ‘two’ and all.
Lots of GMC70’s greatest hits in the post: there’s the “media only responds to market forces” claim, the “liberal media” canard, the “CF2K has his facts and I have mine” strategy, and last but not least, GMC70’s usual relativism. And that’s not even counting the performative contradiction which sees him enter the discussion, only to denounce it, on exiting, as everyone else’s “regularly scheduled squabbling.”
Out of all that, GMC70, let’s focus on what passes for a factual claim on your part: that “because the reality, or at least a significatn [sic] part of it,” doesn’t measure up to the “preconceived liberal narrative” that “the war in Iraq is lost.” This already is so hedged as to be nearly meaningless, but nevertheless, GMC70, really? What parts of the conflict in Iraq suggest that the “war” is being “won?” What are the metrics for “victory?” And how has the “S[pl]urge” concretely delivered on its stated goal of bringing about Iraqi political reconciliation? Because, after all, GMC70, if this was the reason for the “S[pl]urge” in the first place, and nothing has been accomplished on this front, that tends to suggest that my narrative outweighs yours.
Oh, and GMC70? I’ve been away, so if you deigned to respond to my queries to you regarding Fox News and its reference to Michelle Obama as Barack Obama’s “babymama” (in contrast to your assertions that Fox News is nonpartisan, and that I was imagining their ideological bias) and to Sen. Bob Corker’s repudiation of the RNC’s 2006 attack ads against Harold Ford Jr. because they were racist (and not merely “funny” as you claimed), do be so good as to point me to the relevant thread(s).
Iraq? We are at the point now that the Bush Administration said we would be at in May of 2003.
That is progress?
Five years after the fact we are now making a little progress?
Damn – it’s a good thing we weren’t building a house.
As for the “progress?” Most of the progress is due to al Sadr’s cease fire……………
If things are so hunky dory in Iraq, why is the Green Zone still so heavily fortified?
It might be that the Wichita Eagle is trying to be objective. Just as the Supreme Court is trying to be objective. Could be.
The Iraq was is now winnable.
But if anyone wants to sell the idea that Bush was right? You have the wrong marketing niche. The 28% will only buy that one. McCain could be right, but we will see.
Now for all of this liberal media hype. Why hasn’t Fox News broadcast more on the subject? Why doesn’t Bill O’Reilly broadcast more? Why doesn’t PBS broadcast more? Why not answer those questions before you go talking about the liberal media, conspiracy theory, grassy knoll rhetoric?
Does anyone remember the phrase “No nation building”. Think it was a platform plank if I’m not mistaken.
‘Scuse me, WS, but if things are so hunky dory in Iraq, why do we even NEED a Green Zone?
IS violence down in Iraq or are we just not hearing about it? I truly don’t know. But then we never heard all the news from Iraq, anyway. They can’t keep recycling the same old, same old stuff. “50 killed in roadside bomb attack” and the like are pretty much ignored. “The people” have grown tired of it, with little ground gained. Nobody seems to care any more, and that’s really, really sad.
objectivist, there’s the apathy you were talking about. Do you know why there’s apathy? Because when people speak up, no one listens.
Five years after the fact we are now making a little progress?
Actually, all of what has been accomplished in five years is amazing.
Look at Kellogg and it’s construction and no one was shooting at them either.
This is Baghdad, more than five years after the invasion…………………..
“Baghdad’s walls keep peace but feel like prison –
Maze of barriers hurts commerce, transportation”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25414317/
“Baghdad’s walls are everywhere, turning a riverside capital of leafy neighborhoods and palm-lined boulevards where Shiites and Sunnis once mingled into a city of shadows separating the two Muslim sects.”
This is “progress?”
We invaded Iraq to build twenty foot high prison walls in a supposedly free and stable Iraq?
Christ.
Every one needs to write their Congressman and tell them to vote no for HJ Res 362. It is a virtual War Resolution. It is the declaration of tremendous sanctions, boycotts, and embargos on the Iranians. It is very, very severe. It demands the the President empose stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran. It also prohibits the international movement of all Iranian officials. This is UNBELIEVABLE. This is closing down Iran. Where do we have this authority? Where do we get the moral authority? Where do we get the international legality for this? Where do we get the Constitutional authority? This is what we did for 10 years before we went into Iraq. We starved children. 50,000 individuals were admitted to have died because of the sanctions on the Iraqi’s. They were incapable at the time of attacking us. All the propaganda that was given for our need to go to Iraq was not true. It’s not true today about the severity of Iran. They may say “Ahmadinejad is a bad guy, he’s threatened violence”, but you know what? Us threatening violence is very, very similar. You must look at this carefully. We cannot go to war again under these careless, frivolous conditions.
Very well put Regular, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I doubt there’s anyone out there that doesn’t personally know someone who is or has deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan/etc, and worries about them, yet if you listen/read the news, you’d think we were living in a foreign country, because 90 percent of the “news” is negative trash about the wars we’re fighting.
Regular,
How many more Americans have to die over there before you and your ilk are satisfied? I know you are trying to break the death record of Viet Nam and then you can say see we were right and it was the politicians that are to blame? Do you have a son and is he serving?
What Objectivist said. Dick, George, LIEberman, Likud, and the Nazi GOP have a hard-on for bombing Iran, and the DC Democrats seem happy in the usual role as enabler.
If you want to ruin your day, go to Arthur Silber and read the post entitled “Why I Will Happily See Most of You Roast in Hell.” Don’t say CF2K didn’t warn you.
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
WSClark
Posted June 27, 2008 at 2:05 pm | Permalink
Iraq? We are at the point now that the Bush Administration said we would be at in May of 2003.
That is progress?
Five years after the fact we are now making a little progress?
Damn – it’s a good thing we weren’t building a house.
As for the “progress?” Most of the progress is due to al Sadr’s cease fire……………
If things are so hunky dory in Iraq, why is the Green Zone still so heavily fortified?
WS damn you nailed it!
The occupation of Iraq was never meant to be completed or “won”.
It was and is meant to be continuous. But the American people do not have the money or patience for that.
The next President gets us out of Iraq or condemns himself to one term.
If there has been so much progress in Iraq the last 5 years, why did a significant portion of the populace leave and take refuge elsewhere?
CF2K,
Lets examine your so called argument:
===================================
“In the words of HLP, when it comes to Iraq, “move along–nothin’ to see here.” At least for the Wingnuts who want us all to forget that their candidate said the U.S. could be in Iraq for 100 or, heck, even a thousand years.”
===================================
First, if you want to be taken seriously or have a serious discussion, perhaps calling us wingnuts isn’t the best approach.
No one that I know of wants you to forget what McCain said either.
We simply strive for understanding of the statement and not the misrepresentation that people like you try to insinuate.
Just as we have a military presence in places like Japan, Germany, and Korea over 50 years after the fact, McCain too believes that we could have that same type of thing in Iraq.
How many of you on the left try to play his statement off as him saying he wants 100 years of war is where you are being dishonest and playing politics.
==========================================
“The Repukes want Iraq disappeared, just like they’ve disappeared Habeas Corpus. And right on cue, the “liberal media” complies.”
==========================================
Again, if you want to make a serious argument, starting off insulting the Republicans by calling them repukes is not the best thing to do.
Then you follow by making a broad reaching statement which is based in little truth. The Republicans, notice the correct way to say the term, have not made Habeas Corpus disappear.
I am not sure how you then connect the media to complying with some imaginary demand from the Republicans that Iraq disappear.
Why don’t you start by providing some facts or evidence for the assertion of yours that Republicans want Iraq to disappear?
I don’t speak for all Republicans, but want I want and most of the Republicans I know want, is for the media to provide some aspect of positive coverage on Iraq instead of nothing but negative.
The lack of media coverage on Iraq probably has far more to do with the lack of negative things happening there than any attempt to satisfy some imaginary wish by the Republicans that coverage on Iraq disappear.
I am sure there are many other factors as well.
Exactly what is you evidence for some Republican and media collusion here?
============================================
“And before Nathan and Franklin start snivelling, that was ABSOLUTELY what McCain said, ABSOLUTELY in context.”
=============================================
I don’t have the exact quote in front of me, but I am not trying to argue or say that McCain didn’t basically say that at all.
Oh yeah, implying that Franklin or I would start snivelling is yet another example of your lack of any decorum in making your argument.
The problem is when those on the left start trying to say that McCain said we would be “fighting” in Iraq for 100 years or we would be at “war” in Iraq for the next 100 years is what many other Republicans and myself have a problem with.
McCain didn’t say either of those things or any variation of them.
Blue jay I hope you are right. My son came home from there 5 years ago this month and I earnestly wish all other family members od\f the troops get to know the joy I had when my son came home,sadly over 4000 familes will never know that joy
Nathaniel,
Thank God my son has mmore brains than you do. After he returned home they asked him to reenlist and his answer was “Why,so I can be a target so Bush can keep his cronies in buisness? His attitude was I fulfilled my obligation I remained treu to the oath I took and I dont owe that son of a bitch another thing.
“McCain didn’t say either of those things or any variation of them.”
This is what he said:
“Last month, at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire, a crowd member asked McCain about a Bush statement that troops could stay in Iraq for 50 years.
“Maybe 100,” McCain replied. “As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed, it’s fine with me and I hope it would be fine with you if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where al Qaeda is training, recruiting, equipping and motivating people every single day.””
BTW my son was a Marine and is damned proud of his service to this country
First, if you want to be taken seriously or have a serious discussion,
Why do phrases like this almost always begin Nathan’s responses?
Sol,
Because they don’t.
Freebird1971
Posted June 27, 2008 at 2:39 pm | Permalink
Regular,
How many more Americans have to die over there before you and your ilk are satisfied?
———————————
What weasel statement.
When did you stop beating your wife Freebird1971?
That’s another weasel statement.
I never beat my wife now answer my question weasel
It’s 50/50 right now Freebird.
bush and his handlers were banking on the idea that the American public would grow numb to the losses in American troops. That eventually a level of acceptable losses would be reached and the public would no longer care.
They appear to have won that bet.
But there is still the matter of paying for the continuous occupation. That, the public has not been sold on.
I am not advocating this. But the way to make the public forget all about Iraq is to open the oil spigots over there. And I mean open them wide. Use the occupation as the causation of getting gas prices lower. Then the American public would be ok with occupying Iraq and the attendant expense in perpetuity.
That’s empire 101.
It’s also not likely to happen. Big oil LIKES the high price of gasoline and as we are already seeing, they will sell the oil under our troops to the highest bidder.
Without the benefits of empire, the public is going to get sick of paying for it.
Freebird1971,
How does your son have more brains than I do because he chose to get out of the Marines?
The truth of the matter is that being a Marine is about winning battles.
It is not my place to question the President I serve under as a Marine. It is my job to ensure that the Marines I lead and myself are prepared to fight and win battles.
Personally, I didn’t enjoy Clinton as a President. I still served under him though.
If you are unable to be a Marine simply because of who you serve under as President, then getting out was probably a good choice.
That doesn’t make your son any smarter than I am though.
It’s an ignorant statement from an ignorant person Freebird.
Aren’t you concerned from the 50,000 per year that die in traffic accidents?
How many have to die Freebird1971?
90 percent is due to driver negligence like speeding and reckless driving and not paying attention.
Natahniel then my son is smarter he is not a robot, he thinks for himself, he fulfilled his duty and obligation thought through his option declined to reenlist and got out. You on the other hand are so blinded by you blind obedience to your God Bush you do not have the power to think for your self
Regular appples and oranges
Freebird1971 is just another spineless whining Lib who thinks his words actually mean something.
The only joy he has in life is to make weasel statements.
Regular noi I’m not concerned, these people died from their own lack of attention, not because they were sent to die in a forieign land for someone elses ego
I have been meaning to ask this for quite some time Nathaniel: What is your status? Are you Marine Corps Reserve? Are you IRR? I know the Marine’s might not have a stop loss like the Army did. But why can’t you go back to Iraq? It sounds like you would like to go back. Is that true?
I’m a moderate regular but unlike you I can see through the propoganda and talking points and think for my self. The only person I get my marching orders from is myself. Try it sometime if you dare
LLVET I dont know about now but when my son was deployed 5 years ago he got caught in stop loss
“Weasels feed on small mammals, and in former times were considered vermin since some species took poultry from farms, or rabbits from commercial warrens.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel
McCluer is a small mammal, most likely a rabbit.
Freebird1971,
=========================================
“Natahniel then my son is smarter he is not a robot, he thinks for himself, he fulfilled his duty and obligation thought through his option declined to reenlist and got out.”
=========================================
I am not a robot because I love being a Marine. I think for myself as well. I have chosen to reenlist in the Marine Corps a couple of times and will be doing so again this summer.
Are you saying that over 100,000 Marines who both enlisted and stayed in the Marine Corps are nothing but robots that are dumber than your son because they love being a Marine or for whatever other reason?
I love the Marines. I am not going to let who the President is change that. If Obama gets elected I will still be a Marine.
I don’t allow my life to be controlled by what I see to be such a petty thing.
==============================================
“You on the other hand are so blinded by you blind obedience to your God Bush you do not have the power to think for your self.”
==============================================
Bush is not my God. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I have obedience to Bush because he is my CIC. Just as I will Obama or McCain. Just as I did under Clinton.
Nothing I have posted between you or I shows that I don’t have a brain, that I don’t think for myself, or that I have some blind obedience to Bush.
Care to stop with the name calling and insinuations about my service to this country?
Good one WS
Oh, so Freebird, you have actually lived in that part of the Middle East and know what it is all about?
Tell us uninformed what we need to know, whose opinion you think is swayed by whatever factions you conjure up?
Yes, I have been stationed as Active Duty in that part of the world during the First Gulf War.
I do know what it’s about.
But please Freebird, let us all hear your knowledgeable response, so we might be better educated.
Freebird:
So the Marines DO have a stop-loss.
Oh, and good luck trying to convince some of these bloggers that you are a freethinker, unless you agree with them. It seems ingrained in their paradigm that anyone who disagrees with them is being duped in some way.
See what I mean Freebird?
Folks like “Regular” have been very diligently anesthetizing the American people.
Comparing combat losses to domestic accidents is sickeningly dishonest and dishonors those who have lost their lives or their limbs in the occupation of Iraq. I can only remember the outrage I felt the first few times such comparisons were made. But it has, over time, worked. The outrage is now little more than elevator music.
It helps alot when you keep the public from ever seeing a flag draped casket too.
Congratulations….”Regular”.
I guess.
Regular,
What is the date on your DD-214? Seems to me you have a time line problem.
time line?
1993 is when I retired, if that is your question.
Nathaniel: I don’t think that you lack intelligence. I just think that you are sometimes intellectually lazy. Our President is definitely so and he consideres that a good quality for some reason.
So, I ask again, why aren’t you allowed to go back to Iraq? From what you said, you are still a Marine. I can gather that you might even be an NCO or Officer from some of the things you said. But I might be speculating.
I want some of you to stop repeating media points on here. They are lies and propaganda. Everyone can see that some of you are repeating the sentiments of the media.
Here’s a secret. The media is not looking out for your best interest. They only give you want they want to.
You need to learn to find out things for yourselves. If you want to know what Ahmadinejad thinks of America? Go read his newletters. Do not rely on what our media tells you about his statements.
You want to know about Osama Bin laden and his reasons for attacking us? Go read what he directly wrote? Do not rely on the media to tell you.
You want to know about the economy? Go study finance, economics, money, and accounting. Do not rely on what you are being told. Go research it yourself.
The lack of critical thinking in the country is awful. Please help to improve it by calling out those who don’t do it.
Nathaniel I respect your service to our country and thank you from the bottom of my heart for it. As a person I respect you but we differ widely on political issues. I know if my son were to meet you he would say Semper Fi Marine. If my attacks became personal I apologize,its that I am as fervrent in my beliefs as you are in yours. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I just hope that if you ever meet my son you will give him the respect he deserves as he will give you the same. AS a matter of fact I would like to meet you and just sit down and talk maybe we could learn something from each other,I’m not closed minded
You retired? Thought you got a medical discharge.
41 Dead in Iraq Bombings
In Iraq, at least forty-one people were killed in separate bombings Thursday. Twenty Iraqis were killed along with three U.S. marines at a tribal council meeting in Anbar province. Another eighteen people were killed and eighty wounded in a car bomb attack in the northern city of Mosul. Thirteen Americans including two civilians have died in Iraq since Monday. Twenty-nine U.S. servicemembers have been killed in June, making it one of the bloodiest periods for the U.S. military in several months. At least fifty Iraqis have died in the same stretch.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/27/headlines
June Deadliest Month of Afghan Invasion for Foreign Troops
Meanwhile in Afghanistan, June has become the deadliest month for foreign troops there since the 2001 invasion. On Thursday, a roadside bomb killed three service-members in a foreign convoy, bringing this month’s troop toll to thirty-nine.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/27/headlines
What is it with you Sol?
Can’t address the issues, so you want to attack my military service?
Do you know the difference between medical retirement and typical retirement? There isn’t any difference, pay or benefit wise.
Go lick some Ron Paul buttocks Sol, it will satisfy your hunger for your need for ‘goofiness.’
LLTVET,
I am in the SMCR. The Selected Marine Corps Reserve.
I drill once a month and for at least 2 weeks every year.
The Marine Corps did have a stop loss. I and many others were in that stop loss when it happened.
When you don’t want to get out and plan on staying in the Marines, a stop loss is irrelevant to someone like me.
I can go back to Iraq. I am at a place in my life where going back at this moment makes no sense.
If they tell me to go, I’ll go, no problem.
I have volunteered to go several times to both Iraq and Afghanistan.
As I have explained many times here, going to Iraq is not as simple as jumping on a plane and flying over simply because you want to.
Manpower Marine Corps looks at the MOS and rank that is needed and they regulate those things.
Can’t address the issues, so you want to attack my military service?
Go lick some Ron Paul buttocks Sol,
Hmmmmm. Why would anal felating come to your mind first Regular?
Whatever Sol, you question my military service for some odd reason, you deserve any answer I can give you.
Evidently, you’re in the mood to pick a fight.
I’m off to do other things that require focus and intellectual discipline.
Regular, unlike Nathaniel,I dont think I could ever have an idea exchange with you, you attitude is dont confuse me with any other possibilities my mind is made up. Show me where I said I’ve been in the middle east. BTW how many times did you come under fire or have to risk your life? My son did on several occasions
Understood Nathaniel: So are you going to stay with the SMCR or just doing that instead of IRR?
Regular,
If you’d stop linking a hatred for the war with a hatred for our troops, you may get somewhere with people.
The country is crumbling from within, and you still support our leadership? How can you justify what is going on all around us?
The dollar is crashing. We are going to threaten the lives of million of innocent of Iranians. We will fall just like every other empire before us. Your arrogance to this is disturbing.
You think America is different? You think we are immune to the problems of the past? So were the citizens of the empires that fell. So were they…
Shut up sol!
You are interrupting “Regulars” lullabye.
Keep throwing clinkers into it here and there and you might make people remember the people HE wants to forget.
How do you feel about those acceptable losses that you have helped to make acceptable there “Regular”? Could YOU hand a folded flag to a grieving mother with a clear conscience?
Blue Jay, as long as it wasnt one of his family members I really dont think he would have a problem
Regular, Have you joined the Patriot Guard yet? I have and I dont ride a motorcycle,That is how I pay my respects to the fallen. What have you done?
LLTVET,
When anyone joins the military they sign an 8 year contract.
Most on active duty spend 4 years active and 4 in the IRR.
Reserves spend 6 years in the SMCR and 2 in the IRR.
Basically, it is a way to ensure that we have enough people in the military or we don’t lose that ability to have people in the military if something happens without a draft.
Those in the IRR don’t do anything. The IRR is simply a status you are in. You go about your life and only have to have your uniforms ready just in case.
Several of my friends were brought up from the IRR just after 9/11.
I joined the SMCR after my 4 years of active duty and served there.
I have been in the Marine Corps for 12 years. I am past the IRR stage.
In the SMCR you are allowed to “quit” if you want to. Even if you reenlist. As long as you have fulfilled the first 6 years.
If you still have time on your contract that you reenlisted under, then when you “quit” you would drop to the IRR for the remainder of that contract.
I will stay in the SMCR until I retire and have no interest in dropping to the IRR.
I hope that makes sense.
Understood Nathaniel.
Since our guys are four times more likely to die in Forgotonistan, we should also have more coverage about Afghanistan, and the missed opportunities.
Interesting Idea Objectivist. Usually when I have a conversation with someone more “conservative” than I am, the Christian soldier comes up.
In effect. If you show our country as just another empire. They don’t see us falling because we have spent too much time spreading the empire if you will. They see us falling because we don’t pray to the correct God. We think too much. We allow homos to get married etc.
If our country ever did fall apart (GOD FORBID it ever happens. I sincerely mean that) they would think that it was because of the Godless pinko, commie, purple hair, liberal, homosexual, damn yankees who listen to jungle music. As I said before, it is deeply ingrained into their paradigm.
#
Freebird1971
Posted June 27, 2008 at 3:47 pm | Permalink
Regular, Have you joined the Patriot Guard yet? I have and I dont ride a motorcycle,That is how I pay my respects to the fallen. What have you done?
————————
Patriot Guard? No.
I did actual honor guard duty for about four years. You know the guards you see who do the 21 gun salute, hold the flag over the coffin and carry the casket to the grave and then stand at attention while the eulogy is given. I attended a lot of funerals, it’s hard to stand at attention and see the faces of the family weeping for their lost love ones. I gave them the best respect I could.
Does that not qualify for honoring the dead? In all types of weather, rain, snow, heat and etc.
—————————————-
Objectivist
Posted June 27, 2008 at 3:42 pm | Permalink
Regular,
If you’d stop linking a hatred for the war with a hatred for our troops, you may get somewhere with people
===================================
I hate war as well. However, I don’t pop off with snarky remarks about leadership when it goes against my ideology.
Eventually, those who claim to hate war, end up attacking those who serve in.
I know, been the recipient of that hate since Nam, during the Clinton years and with the current group of “I just hate the war” pretenders.
Don’t believe me? Just look at a couple of posts here.
No one gives a rat ass about those who served, unless they are of the WWII generation or those who actually served.
That’s it. The rest are bunch of self serving whiners.
The CONs said that Saddam had nuclear and biological weapons of mass destruction and posed a grave and gathering threat.
Iraq had no WMD’s just like the Weapons Inspectors on the ground said.
The CONs said that our troops would be celebrated as liberators and greeted with flowers and candy.
We are treated as occupiers and greeted with roadside IED’s and suicide bombers.
The CONs said that the country would stablize when 1. Saddam was captured, 2. the country got a constitution, 3. the country held elections.
The country is still not stabilized and remains on the brink of civil war.
The CONs said that the Iraq insurgancy was just “some deadenders in their last throes, if you will.”
3,000 Americans have died since Dick Cheney said that.
The CONs said that Iraq has so much potential oil revenue that it could fund its own reconstruction.
The United States has poured 2 billion dollars a week into Iraq. No one seems to know what is happening to the money, nor where the oil revenue the Iraqis generate is going.
Nobody wants to hear anything more about Iraq because they don’t want to be reminded that they once believed the Liar-in-Chief.
Worst.
President.
Ever.
Everything we on the anti-war side said turned out to be true, and everything you gung-ho CONs said turned out to be false.
And 4,100 brave American soldiers have died for a pack of lies.
Regular,Thank you for honoring the fallen
Nixon won a landslide victory over McGovern in 1972.
Two years later, you couldn’t find anyone who would admit to voting for him . . .
Yeah, thank you, Regular.
Did you do that before or after your tires were slashed by “mean libs” and you got a citation from the Governor for “working on Christmas” and you “moved to Mississippi” and your wife left you even though you were never married?
Just wondering . . .
“Everything we on the anti-war side said turned out to be true”
And the sons of bitches on the other side STILL call us traitors and unAmerican.
Correct, Clark.
If we were patriots like they are patriots, we wouldn’t care about the truth.
We’d just care about killing people and making them afraid of us.
Kinda like terrorists.
Oops, there’s that truth thing again.
Damn!
And even then, the Repubs circulated a LOT of lies about McGovern to help Nixon win… Seems like a long historical period of lying campaigns for the Cons… :-)
You know that isn’t true Regular. There are many civilians who care about the soldiers. Supporting the troops is no longer the flavor of the month. That’s true from both sides. But there are still some who never served who do care about the troops.
But there is a difference between what you call “popping off” and speaking up for the troops when they are not being given the “outstanding leadership” that they deserve according to the NCO creed. If you think this President is showing outstanding leadership, that’s your opinion. I think he is doing a dismal job as commander in chief and will say so whenever I get a chance. Shame on you if you think I shouldn’t speak up for the troops.
Wow . . . sure got quiet from the CON side.
What?
Is Ann Coulter doing a strip tease on Fox News or something?
Or maybe the Bill O’Reilly sex tape got leaked, you know, the one in which he forces his shower fantasy on his unwilling subordinate and confuses a loofah with the word “tabouli” . . .
CapnAmerica,
Lets examine your statements:
=============================================
“The CONs said that Saddam had nuclear and biological weapons of mass destruction and posed a grave and gathering threat.”
=============================================
No. All the worlds best intellegence agencies were saying that Saddam still had WMD’s and that he had never accounted for them.
The Democrats believed this and have been on record as saying since 1998 continuing up to the invasion as well.
============================================
“Iraq had no WMD’s just like the Weapons Inspectors on the ground said.”
============================================
Iraq did have WMD’s. Just no where near what we believed or expected them to have.
============================================
“The CONs said that our troops would be celebrated as liberators and greeted with flowers and candy.”
============================================
Our troops were celebrated as liberators and greeted nicely.
There were clebrations going on for weeks.
Saddam left in place a very well organized insrugency that he thought he could hide out for.
When those insurgents started attacking us, attacking others, and targeting ethnic groups agains one another, things quickly spirled down hill.
===========================================
“We are treated as occupiers and greeted with roadside IED’s and suicide bombers.”
===========================================
By terrorists and the insurgents that were in place to do just that. Not by the general population which was happy Saddam was gone and wanted to go about their lives in peace.
===============================================
“The CONs said that the country would stablize when 1. Saddam was captured, 2. the country got a constitution, 3. the country held elections.”
===============================================
I don’t believe that anyone ever said things would be perfect, but we definately thought they would be better when those things happened.
Which by the way your side said would never happen.
The liberals said we would never catch Saddam. We did.
The liberals said there would not be any elections. There were.
The liberals said there would be no constitution and there is.
Thank you for actually outlining several measures of success in Iraq which all the liberal nay sayers said wouldn’t happen.
============================================
“The country is still not stabilized and remains on the brink of civil war.”
============================================
The country is stable. Are there still attacks? yes. Is there still much to be done? yeah.
The country is hardly in a civil war either.
Actually, the liberals were saying that little mantra back in 2004 over and over again.
Here we are 4 years later with no civil war.
How long will you liberals still be saying that Iraq is on the brink of civil war?
==============================================
“The CONs said that the Iraq insurgancy was just “some deadenders in their last throes, if you will.”
==============================================
And they are. We are dealing with several fronts here.
-The insrgency
-The terrorists
-The secretarian violence
-Iran infiltration
===============================================
“3,000 Americans have died since Dick Cheney said that.”
===============================================
Unfortunately yes.
===============================================
“The CONs said that Iraq has so much potential oil revenue that it could fund its own reconstruction.”
===============================================
It does, and it can. It has taken them this long to finally start issuing out contracts on their oil and come to an agreement.
================================================
“The United States has poured 2 billion dollars a week into Iraq. No one seems to know what is happening to the money, nor where the oil revenue the Iraqis generate is going.”
================================================
Who says? The money going into Iraq mostly funds combat operations and equipement.
You do care about providing our soldiers with that don’t you?
Okay, Nathan.
You win.
And the earth is only 8,000 years old too.
Just like you say it is.
“Everything we on the anti-war side said turned out to be true, and everything you gung-ho CONs said turned out to be false.”
Oh really?
First they said the invasion would cost 10,000 lives and take too long and be far too costly.
We completely invaded Iraq in less than a month with less than 1000 dead.
Then the anti-war side said we would never find Saddam.
We found him, the Iraqi’s tried him, and he was executed.
the anti-war side said we would never ahve elections, they would never have a constitution, we would never capture or kill the terrorist leader there, the violence wouldn’t go down, etc…etc….etc….
Almost everything that the anti-war side has said has been proven wrong.
All you can do is constantly keep changing your latests demands and when those are met you shift the goal post again.
You are so against this war that you refuse to ever see any success at all.
Nathan supports the soldiers (and rightly so) saying that everything is just fine.
Since everything is going so well, perhaps we can start bringing them home.
The deadenders are pretty much beaten and I would think that the Iraqi military (having years of experience and training) can handle those deadbeats.
So Nathan, why aren’t our men and women coming home…say next week?
Capnamerica,
What does the Bible or what it says about creation have to do with this conversation?
We can’t criticize George Bush. Then it is automatically equivalent to attacking the troops. That is why it took McCain almost 3 years to get the changes that needed to take place in Iraq.
I hope it wasn’t too late.
And many of you Republicans don’t even like McCain. Unbelieveable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nathaniel posted June 27, 2008 at 4:29 pm
“The Democrats believed this and have been on record as saying since 1998 continuing up to the invasion as well.”
———–
Were those statements made BEFORE Dec 16, 1998?
Bombing of Iraq (December 1998)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Fox
“Then the anti-war side said we would never find Saddam.”
No we didn’t.
“the anti-war side said we would never ahve elections, they would never have a constitution, we would never capture or kill the terrorist leader there, the violence wouldn’t go down, etc…etc….etc….”
No we didn’t.
“Almost everything that the anti-war side has said has been proven wrong.”
Really? We said that there were no WMD and the Sunnis and Shi’ites would fight like cats and dogs.
Did those things happen?
Hell yes.
We were told that we would invade Iraq, find WMD and neutralize them, prove a connection between Saddam and al Qaeda and then we would leave a free and stable Iraq.
Did those things happen?
Hell no.
KansasNative,
I don’t think everything is going just fine. I have never said such a thing either.
Why do you feel that you need to put words in my mouth and be dishonest?
Actually, things went pretty much as predicted…
‘Post-Saddam Iraq: The War Game’
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB207/index.htm
“”Desert Crossing” 1999 Assumed 400,000 Troops and Still a Mess”
Oh, yeah…………..
“First they said the invasion would cost 10,000 lives and take too long and be far too costly.”
Bush said there would be NO casualties – zero.
And the cost? In real terms – over a trillion dollars.
We were told that it might cost AS MUCH AS $40 billion.
Yeah, right.
“The CONs said that the Iraq insurgancy was just “some deadenders in their last throes, if you will.”
==============================================
Nathan you said: “And they are. ”
How many more years of “last throes” will it take?
Whenever another political reconciliation occurs in Iraq. Report on that.
By January 2003, the experts from Blix’s U.N. commission and Mohamed ElBaradei’s IAEA had inspected 13 major “facilities of concern” from the previous fall’s U.S. and British reports, and found no signs of weapons-making. The IAEA publicly exposed the Niger document as a forgery, and found the aluminum tubes poor candidates for centrifuges. Checking supposed sites for manufacturing mobile labs, Blix’s teams debunked Curveball’s tale at the Iraq end.
Washington was unmoved. Administration loyalists dismissed the “so-called inspections.” In late February 2003, a Powell aide sternly told Blix nothing would suffice short of Iraq’s unveiling its “secret hide sites.” Most significantly, Bush ordered no reassessment of his government’s collapsing claims.
Blix told the Security Council he could complete the work within months. The White House wasn’t interested. “More time, more inspectors, more process, in our judgment, is not going to affect the peace of the world,” Bush said on March 6, as the Pentagon counted down toward war.
Cheney at one point even told a TV audience — without challenge from the host — that Iraq possessed nuclear weapons. Of ElBaradei, whose IAEA refuted the claims about uranium and tubes, Cheney said, “I think Mr. ElBaradei, frankly, is wrong.” But the CIA had already accepted ElBaradei’s judgment on the Niger uranium document.
******
Bush Co. knew they were lying–they lied about the Niger uranium connection, an obvious forgery–they lied about alumnium tubes which could not have been for bomb-making–they lied when they said that the trailers were “mobile weapons labs” and their own Intelligence people were saying they weren’t.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-09-02-WMD-indepth_x.htm
They lied when they got a high level Iraqi defector, Hussein Kamal, the chief WMD manufacturer, who claimed that all the WMD had been destroyed by 1995.
That kind of information was never shared with Congress.
Nathan, your side implies that McShame would only keep troops in Iraq for 100 to 1000 years IF there were no casualties.
Why are they staying there with casualties when we have spent years training and equipping the Iraqi army to take care of these “almost nearly in their last breaths” deadenders?
Nathan–
Who on the anti-war side said that Iraq would never have elections? We were the ones demanding that Iraq be allowed to have elections while J. Paul Bremer dragged his feet.
Or that Saddam could not be found?
I never cared if he was found or not. Obviously, we’re just going to put our dictator in for Saddam, which we did.
KansasNative,
When you put words in my mouth and lie, I expect some reconciliation on that point first, before I go on asnwering your questions.
Bush said there would be NO casualties – zero.
———-
????? Must be happy hour.
I think the MSM stopped reporting the news in Iraq when the surge began. That is when things started getting better and that is the last thing they wanted because losing the war gave them a reason to seduce the public into hating Bush. That seems to be the only thing that the Dems and the MSM have in common with the regular people, that is to hate Bush. Now they have McCain and he is more like a liberal than a conservative. However, they really want to get back into the White House so they want you to believe that McCain is an extension of Bush. They have used the Hate Bush card for 8 years and they have nothing else to bring the people to their side. Also, if the MSM were to begin reporting on Iraq whether it was good or bad, it would remind the American people that we are in war and that we do need a President who will support our troops and their efforts and protect our country. It is clear that Barack Obama is not the right person for that. We have a real enemy, and it is not only the fault of the MSM that Americans think we can just tell the enemy we don’t want to play anymore, game over. It is the responsibility of each citizen of the U.S. to see the truth and know the truth and not to cower at telling the truth. 9/11 was real and it was 3 planes that they used and they have plans of more than just that. This enemy engaged us, we did not engage them. For a period of 30 years, since Carter, we have let this bully push us around and we pandered to them and closed a blind eye. That told the enemy that we were an easy target. The MSM would like us to forget about 9/11 and to believe all the lies they have told. I don’t agree with McCain on a lot of things but I do know that he will support our troops and those young men and women will not have died in vain and we will not be attacked by this enemy. And before you say it, yes I was in the military many years ago. It was peace time but as a soldier you are ready at anytime to fight. I know it is hard for bleeding heart liberals to understand that, but we would fight because we have to. By the way, this is Chris’ wife, not Chris; he is working overtime so he doesn’t have time for this right now.
“It is the responsibility of each citizen of the U.S. to see the truth and know the truth and not to cower at telling the truth. 9/11 was real…”
—–
Yes, 9/11 was real and Iraq had nothing to do with it! Nothing! So perhaps the truth you want others to seek should be something you look for.
“Bush said there would be NO casualties – zero.”
Look it up – that is what Bush told Pat Robertson.
But it is Happy Hour, thank you.
“The MSM would like us to forget about 9/11 and to believe all the lies they have told”
What did Iraq and Saddam Hussein have to do with 9/11 and what lies were told?
Be specific …………..
“Iraq did have WMD’s. ”
Where are they?
WS Clark,
It is rather simple logic.
We know Saddam has used WMD’s.
That means the Saddam had WMD’s.
Saddam never accounted fully for what he did with them.
“We know Saddam has used WMD’s.”
During the Iraq/Iran War when we supported Saddam and provided weapons to him.
“That means the Saddam had WMD’s.”
No it doesn’t – that is backwards logic.
“Saddam never accounted fully for what he did with them.”
Perhaps – he wanted Iran to think that he still had them.
The UN Inspectors, however, were well on their way to proving that Saddam did NOT have WMD or a program for same.
So, why didn’t Bush let them finish their jobs?
And……………………………………..
“Iraq did have WMD’s.”
Where are they?
WS Clark,
Actually, that is what Pat Robertson said Bush said.
Karl Rove was there and said the President didn’t say that. The white house denied that.
Either way, the President has said many times in public that the war would require sacrifice and have never led anyone to believe there would be zero casualties.
WS Clark,
Are you saying that Saddam has never had WMD’s at all?
Saddam had a compound in Iraq where the terrorists trained. I know it has been a long time but they were actually reporting this on the MSM. I would watch NBC news and they also showed actual video from the satellites where there were convoys leading out of Iraq. This was before the war when we were waiting for the inspectors to give us a word on the WMDs. It just amazes me how 8 years of them saying ‘NO WMDs’ has become the truth when there was actual footage of these convoys which I believe they said were heading towards Syria. They also showed the mass graves of men, women and children. I also don’t understand how everyone believes we are fighting against the Iraqis. We are fighting in Iraq but it is against the terrorist. They are everywhere, but right now they do know the U.S. will fight back if we are attacked. I don’t think they will believe that when Obama becomes President. It seems as though the enemy started talking more like the democrats than the terrorist a few years ago. I remember the first time I saw this kind of thing. I saw Bin Laden on the news and they were translating his words, which was not the way he would talk, it was more like a democratic talking point. Bin Laden and all the other terrorist don’t care if we are democrat or republican or conservative or liberal. They hate all Americans equally. btw, I used to be a democrat then I became a republican. I just don’t like people cramming their viewpoints down my throat. And, I am not that crazy about the republicans either but it seems at least they have some qualities that I like, like capitalism, which gives each of us a drive to succeed, because we work hard and gain something for it. I also like loving our country. I know that has become unpopular but you must hear what others from other countries say about Americans who complain about the USA. They believe you are spoiled brats and immature because you don’t know how well you have it. I went to school with students from India and the Asian countries. I thought it was cool to put down our country because everyone else was and I actually thought they would like it. They did not, they kind of laughed, shook their head and said I was immature. Now I understand what they are talking about. Now we can look at our own country and get a good idea of how lucky we are, just look at the victims from the floods, tornados and hurricanes. I know things are bad and our government – Congress, Senate and White House are acting like children who want it their way and aren’t putting our best interest first. But at least we don’t have dictators that take money from terrorists and use it for themselves and don’t give the people what they want like running water, electricity and then torturing and killing anyone who speaks against its ruler. I am glad we stood up and helped the victims of Hitler and Saddam, I just thinks it sad that we would have to wait to be attacked in both cases before we would even act. This is not Star Trek and we do not have the prime directive, this is real life and there are people’s lifes at stake. I think we should not allow people to suffer, we are one of the richest countries and we should help. If we keep feeling guilt about having, we will no longer have. Then what will we be able to give. Do not allow the MSM or the government to make you feel bad about what you have because they have even more. I think it is time that the government accomplishes something for the citizens of this country. We are paid a lot less and we are expected to show results at our place of employment. All I ask is that they do the same especially since we are paying them and they get a raise each year. They have mansions and jets and produce nothing.
“Are you saying that Saddam has never had WMD’s at all?”
Yes, he had WMD – we know that because we sold them to him – during the Iraq/Iran War.
He did not have WMD AFTER the early Nineties – post Gulf War I.
And…………………
“Actually, that is what Pat Robertson said Bush said.”
Oh my God, are you calling Pat Robertson a LIAR?
Actually Hussein violated almost all of the U.N. Sanctions that were placed upon him. That alone was sufficient cause to continue the war from the resolutions and sanctions placed upon him from the first Gulf war.
Hussein was given more than enough opportunity to comply with the sanctions, he did not.
WS Clark,
Where did the WMD’s go?
“It just amazes me how 8 years of them saying ‘NO WMDs’ has become the truth when there was actual footage of these convoys which I believe they said were heading towards Syria”
Really – on the eve of War Saddam sent his primary weapons to SYRIA?
And we were “afraid” of this idiot?
What was he going to do without his weaponry – fir that two-bit shotgun at us?
Of course we controlled the air space between Iraq and Syria – if there were “convoys” of WMD leaving Iraq, why didn’t we just bomb the shit out of them?
Eh?
“Where did the WMD’s go?”
They were destroyed between 1992 and 1995.
Where is your PROOF that they still existed?
Which country is in violation of the most U.N. sanctions?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=593zHUAs_58
Are you advocating invading and occupying every country in violation of U. N. Sanctions?
“Hussein was given more than enough opportunity to comply with the sanctions, he did not.”
Israel has violated more than fifty UN Resolutions – should we invade?
“We are fighting in Iraq but it is against the terrorist. They are everywhere, but right now they do know the U.S. will fight back if we are attacked.”
Military intelligence places the foreign content of the insurgency in Iraq at about 5%. The other 95% is Iraqi.
Further, there was no al Qaeda presence in Iraq prior to the invasion – now we have provided them with a training base.
If we wanted to attack the country most behind the 9/11 attacks, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia.
I just don’t like people cramming their viewpoints down my throat.
——–
I don’t think you have anything to worry about.
WS Clark,
Then why ask me a question about where the WMD’s went if you know they were destroyed already?
BTW, how do you know they were all destoryed as you claim?
WS Clark,
A lie requires intent to deceive. Do I think that Pat Robertson was trying to be deceiving? No.
I think he might have been mistaken about what was said.
We know that Pat supported Bush 100%.
Were you telling a lie when you said that Bush said there would be zero casualties?
“Where is your PROOF that they still existed?”
According to your last two (losing) presidential candidates, they existed. Look it up. It’s not that hard to find.
WS Clark,
Saudi Arabia is not openly training terrorists. Yes, some terrorists do come from the country.
Are you saying that we should invade a country simply because some of it’s people choose to be terrorists?
No kidding.
If all the WMD’s were gone by 1995, what was Bill Clinton doing bombing them and what were all the Democrats talking about in 1998?
“BTW, how do you know they were all destoryed as you claim?”
Because (one) the UN Inspectors say that they did not exist and (two) no WMD have been found in the five years since the invasion and (three) your hero George WMD Bush says that there were no WMD.
“According to your last two (losing) presidential candidates, they existed.”
And for the 1,37th time – there statements were from the time PRIOR to the Inspectors being in Iraq.
“If all the WMD’s were gone by 1995, what was Bill Clinton doing bombing them and what were all the Democrats talking about in 1998?”
Because Saddam Hussein had kicked the UN Inspectors out and was not complying with UN Resolutions.
As for Democrat’s statements – see above.
“Are you saying that we should invade a country simply because some of it’s people choose to be terrorists?”
Nope.
If that were the case, the US would have to invade Kansas, since McVeigh and Nichols lived in Junction City.
And…………..
“Were you telling a lie when you said that Bush said there would be zero casualties?”
Nope, I was just quoting a “good Christian man of faith.”
/sarcasm/
WSClark
Posted June 27, 2008 at 6:12 pm
And we were “afraid” of this idiot?
You assume we fight Saddam because we were afraid of him? No, we went to Iraq to fight Saddam who supported the terrorist and the terrorist themselves who crashed two planes into the twin towers, another into the Pentagon and one headed for the White House. I thank the passengers on that plane for caring about the people of their country enough to fight back.
They were destroyed between 1992 and 1995.
Where is your PROOF that they still existed?
I can play that game too. Where is your evidence that they didn’t exist. Your logic is flawed, just because you don’t find something doesn’t mean it isn’t there. How many times have you told your kids to look for something and they couldn’t find it but it was there. What about the teenager who is doing drugs and the parents look in their kid’s room and they don’t find the drugs. Is it because the parents were wrong and there were no drugs or is it just because the kid took them over to a friend’s house and hid them.
It is amazing how you now say that al Qaeda is in Saudi Arabia. Isn’t that the latest we get from MSM? Did you also change your mind when the media was saying they were in Afghanistan? It seems to me that just those few statements should tell you how the enemy is not just located in one area but more than one. We know they have been forming their alliance since the late 70s. What makes you think they aren’t here either.
You need to start looking at the evidence with your own eyes and see what is really there. Quit listening to the talking points of the left and the right and basing your whole premise on what they new talk of the day is. Form your own opinions and make your own decisions. You might find that you will agree and disagree with both parties.
Hey, that’s another reason I don’t want to be a democrat liberal anymore, you have to always agree and think the way they do even when you know it doesn’t make since.
WS Clark,
Bill Clinton didn’t bomb him because the inspectors were kicked out.
These were his exact words:
“Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.”
Bill Clinton eve said it would only take months for Saddam to start rebuilding his WMD’s.
“First, without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years.”
Wow, months.
WS Clark,
You made no quotes. You made no attempt to explain that the statement of “zero casualties” was heresay and that the whitehouse claimed to have said no such thing.
So were you trying to be deceiving?
Bill Clinton:
“Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people.
And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.”
“No, we went to Iraq to fight Saddam who supported the terrorist and the terrorist themselves who crashed two planes into the twin towers, another into the Pentagon and one headed for the White House.”
What did Saddam Hussein have to do with 9/11?
I’ll give you a hint: al Qaeda actively sought to overthrow the government of the secular Muslim Saddam Hussein.
“Where is your evidence that they didn’t exist”
You fail Debate 101 – you can’t prove a negative, however, US military intelligence, the UN Inspectors and George the Dumb all say that Iraq did not possess WMD nor programs for same.
“It is amazing how you now say that al Qaeda is in Saudi Arabia. Isn’t that the latest we get from MSM? Did you also change your mind when the media was saying they were in Afghanistan?”
The are in both locations, as well as numerous other countries, however, bin Laden is a Saudi.
“What makes you think they aren’t here either.”
They are – so we should be concentrating on al Qaeda not Iraq.
“You need to start looking at the evidence with your own eyes and see what is really there.”
I was actively against the war, long before it started, and everything that I said would happen or be discovered has happened.
“Form your own opinions and make your own decisions”
I have – for about forty years.
End of story.
“First, without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years.”
“If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond”
Key words – “strong inspection system” and “if” – the inspectors returned to Iraq in November 2002.
“So were you trying to be deceiving?”
Nope, I was quoting Bush as told to Pat Robertson – are you saying that the “good reverend” was lying?
Again, No, I am not saying that Robertson was lying. Can you read?
WS Clark,
How many times should we have let Saddam mess around with kicking inspectors out?
If, as Bill Clinton says, that it only takes months for him to rebuild his programs, how many times should we allow him to violate the terms?
Yeah, the inspectors went back, just before the inavsion.
Saddam waited until the very last minute to make such a concession.
Why didn’t he just cooperate before that?
As Bush said, Saddam was a threat that simply needed to be taken out.
WS Clark,
Once again, if you said the WMD’s were destroyed in 1995, why was Clinton attacking WMD targets?
“Again, No, I am not saying that Robertson was lying. Can you read?”
Again, I was quoting Pat Robertson. Can you read?
“Once again, if you said the WMD’s were destroyed in 1995, why was Clinton attacking WMD targets?”
He fired missiles at “suspected” WMD sites – big diff there, Price.
The UN Inspectors later proved that they were not WMD sites.
“Yeah, the inspectors went back, just before the inavsion.”
Five months before.
“Why didn’t he just cooperate before that?”
Because he was an idiot.
“As Bush said, Saddam was a threat that simply needed to be taken out.”
Really, so why are we still in Iraq?
“Once again, if you said the WMD’s were destroyed in 1995, why was Clinton attacking WMD targets?”
Suspected WMD sites – suspected – huge difference.
Let’s see if Nathan can answer honestly.
You know?
Like his President never did.
How long do you see a major contingent of US forces in Iraq Nathan?
Bill Clinton did not say suspected:
“Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.”
He clearly said we were attacking his programs.
Was Bill Clinton a liar?
Didn’t he know that all the WMD’s were destroyed in 1995?
BlueJay,
I have answered your question before. So far, it has been pretty close to reality.
“Was Bill Clinton a liar?”
Nope – Saddam had kicked the inspectors out of Iraq and it was a reasonable estimation that he had reimplemented his WMD program.
Now, your turn to answer a question, Price.
Since the inspectors had returned and were well on their way to proving what we know now – no WMD – why didn’t Bush let them finish their jobs instead of invading when he did?
If he had waited, 4,110 Americans would still be alive.
Bush also knowingly lied when he said that “Saddam and his family must flee the country or face our imminent invasion.”
Turns out, many officials told the NY Times that the invasion was going to happen whether Saddam left Iraq or not.
The facts are clear–Bush wanted Iraqi oil (which Saddam had “nationalized” years before) pumped and sold by his oil pals. 9-11 provided the pretext.
Bush doesn’t give a good goshdarn about “democracy” and “freedom” in Iraq, anymore than he cared about a free and fair election in Florida in 2000 . . .
ChrisfromMacTown–
Thanks for not indenting or punctuating your posts.
It makes them a lot easier to scroll over . . .
Nathan asks disingenuously What does the Bible or what it says about creation have to do with this conversation?, knowing full well that anyone who can convince himself of a ridiculous falsehood like the earth is 10,000 years old instead of the well-established real age of 4.5 billion years old can convince himself of anything and is not worthy of rational argument.
BTW, the idea that The Bible is responsible for the absurd notion that the earth is only 10,000 years old is in itself a specious lie.
The literalists come up with a heretical reading of The Bible and they say outraged, “well, it’s in The Bible.”
Unbelievable.
“CapnAmerica” accurately notes –
“…Bush wanted Iraqi oil (which Saddam had “nationalized” years before) pumped and sold by his oil pals. 9-11 provided the pretext.
“Bush doesn’t give a good goshdarn about “democracy” and “freedom” in Iraq, anymore than he cared about a free and fair election in Florida in 2000 . . .”
And the damnedest, most ironic — even tragic — thing about the whole Shrub presidency is that a lot of us would have been perfectly willing to support Dumbya’s invasion of Iraq.
“Hell, yeah! Secure the oil patch, arm and secure refineries and pipelines and seaports to ship sweet Iraqi crude directly to my local Conoco-Phillips convenience store, and ‘Go Shrub, GO!’”
We mighta bought that.
If George WMD Bush had told the truth, he mighta gotten away with it.
But no…
He had to lie. He had to make it some kind of “Crusade” for “democracy” and “freedom” and all those other platitudes.
We all expect politicians to lie from time to time, or at least to shade the truth, or play the spin, or try to un-paint themselves out of a corner.
But the RepubliCONs chose the lie when the truth probably would have worked!
Incredible!
Given the option of success via the Truth and what they consider “success” via the Lie, they chose the Lie!
Chrisfrommactown,
“Your logic is flawed, just because you don’t find something doesn’t mean it isn’t there.”
No, doofus, YOUR logic is flawed. To say that “you can’t disprove X, so therefore it exists” is a logical fallacy: it’s called “negative proof” or “proving a negative.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof
If you’re going to claim that Iraq had WMD, or any role in 9/11 (which is a lie–they didn’t), the burden is on YOU to provide the evidence. Short of that, chrisfrommactown, the more you run your yap, the dumber you look.
Stupid and convinced of your own correctness is no way to go through life, chrisfrommactown.
CapnAmerica,
Just as you can dismiss anything I say as being not worthy of rational argument simply because I believe in Creation, I too can make the same argument about someone that believes that there is a God.
You have no proof of your belief, yet you believe it.
Contrary to all known scientific principles and knowledge you choose to believe in some God?
How is what you believe any more rational than what I believe?
It has no bearing on the discussion regardless.
You are making the classic logical fallacy of attacking the poster.
Instead of trying to engage in a discussion on the facts here on this subject, you choose rather to discredit me based on something not even related to the subject.
I suppose if you are incapable of actually forming an arugment here, that would be the only thing you could do.
CapnAmerica,
How is a belief in a Young Earth heretical?
You are the one who chooses to dismiss what is clearly written and believe something different while saying that it was not meant to be taken literally.
What is your basis for doing so?
I would try to have a discussion with you on the Bible, but when you simply dismiss everything the Bible says, it is hard to do so.
So far, you have only shown that you believe two parts of the Bible.
Have you seen the story about training Iraq women police? It has some very heart-warming pictures. You say the Eagle hasn’t mentioned it? I’m surprised.
/sarcasm off
It’s like I say Monkeyhawk.
This is the most inept administration in history.
Make no mistake, the makers of bush and the “Project for a New American Century” crowd KNEW the oil situation (higher prices) was coming. They knew they had to have a sizable military force in the region to secure the future of the petro economy.
All bush had to do was be honest about it.
Nathan and Hank were at least a LITTLE more honest about it.
Oh and Nathan? If memory serves, you said you saw a large US contingent in Iraq for about 10 years.
That time is now more than half gone.
The Iraq that bush tried to sell…
“A free and democratic Iraq capable of protecting itself and being an ally in the war on terror”
That aint happening in the next five years.
Do you ever answer questions, Price………
Now, your turn to answer a question, Price.
Since the inspectors had returned and were well on their way to proving what we know now – no WMD – why didn’t Bush let them finish their jobs instead of invading when he did?
If he had waited, 4,110 Americans would still be alive.
Greetings sports fans. This IS Chris from MacTown. You may now deal with me. Which is always a losing proposition for you people. By the way, as you can tell, my wife is a lot smarter than me. And you definitely don’t want to make her mad. Trust me on this one.
Some of you want to argue the point that there was no al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the arrival of US forces in 2003. You claim that their presence now is proof of the failure of the US war on terror. Quite the contrary. Whatever the real reasons that we invaded it has served to draw out our enemies and bring them into our gunsights. That is after all the point of war, to kill your enemy. That old lie that the MSM has trumpeted since 04 that the insurgency is 95% Iraqi and only 5% non Iraqi, has been disproved more ways than Darwinism, yet you still cling to it like Linus to his blanket.
My wife also made an excellent point earlier when she said that the al Qaeda communiques at some point took on the tone of Democratic talking points. The lingo is unmistakable and leads one to wonder just who is advising them. By the way, I have long held the opinion that Osama Bin Laden’s bones have been rotting in the mountains of Tora Bora since the Fall 01/ Winter 02 offensive. Both parties in this Country seem to feel the need to keep him alive for their own political purposes. The fake videos that purport to show him alive and well are old videos that have been photo shopped.
The bottom line of why the MSM has stopped reporting on Iraq is that the Dems feel they don’t need it to win. They are banking on the faltering economy and high fuel prices to get the job done. Which sadly, it probably will.
WS Clark,
I have been answering questions all day.
Why do you feel the need to insinuate that I dont?
Your question is loaded.
It has the premise attached to it that the inspectors were well on their way to proving that there were no WMD’s.
I don’t agree with that premise.
I tend not to answer such loaded questions or at the very least spend some time trying to phrase an answer where I don’t let you get away with such presumptions.
If you want to know why Bush invaded here you go:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html
“I don’t agree with that premise.”
And how is that? They said “No WMD.” There were no WMD. No WMD have been found. No WMD programs have been found. YOUR president and military intelligence says “No WMD.”
So what part of the premise don’t you agree with?
“By the way, as you can tell, my wife is a lot smarter than me.”
That goes without saying.
“Whatever the real reasons that we invaded it has served to draw out our enemies and bring them into our gunsights.”
“That old lie that the MSM has trumpeted since 04 that the insurgency is 95% Iraqi and only 5% non Iraqi, has been disproved more ways than Darwinism.”
Provide proof that the statement is a lie.
Five percent of the insurgency in Iraq is foreign fighters, according to military intelligence. Why not GO to where they are at?
“Which is always a losing proposition for you people”
Yes, it is like arguing with a barking dog – lots of noise but no real debate.
WS Clark,
When did they say no WMD’s?
The present fact that there have been no WMD’s found doesn’t mean you can load a question with the premise that they were well on their way to proving that.
The way the inspectors had been treated for the last 10 years wouldn’t lead anyone to believe that Saddam was now all of a sudden going to be competely forthcoming.
You assume that in your question. I don’t.
That is why it was a loaded question.
“When did they say no WMD’s?”
Let’s clear with up without posting the same info over and over and over and over again, Price.
Yes or no?
Did Saddam Hussein, in March 2003, possess WMD?
If your answer is yes, then there is no point in discussing this with you.
That was your wife?
It SOUNDED like the ramblings of your young, brainwashed, child.
“btw, I used to be a democrat then I became a republican. I just don’t like people cramming their viewpoints down my throat. And, I am not that crazy about the republicans either but it seems at least they have some qualities that I like, like capitalism, which gives each of us a drive to succeed, because we work hard and gain something for it. I also like loving our country.”
What did ya do get her on a steady diet of Rushannity? She sounds typcial of one of those flag waving idiots.
You really want to know why there are so few news reports from Iraq? In order for an editor to consider it news, something different has to have happened. Same-old same-old just doesn’t make the grade. Believe me, if anything different than yesterday’s news had happened there, reporters would all be tripping over each other trying to get it to press! So, if we lost three or four soldiers to an IED yesterday, and the day before that, and the same every day before that, ad nauseum, nobody’s rushing to report the three or four more today. Same as usual. If this administration were actually succeeding there, or losing bigtime, you would definitely hear about it, so rest easy; nothing’s changed, as usual.
“When did they say no WMD’s?”
Hans Blix said that. The inspectors did find missiles that violated the range restrictions and, as a result, they were handed over and destroyed. Saddam welcomed the inspectors to have free reign over any inspection area without interference.
That upset Bush so Bush changed the terms on Hussein. Since no WMD were being found, and the UN inspectors concluded there were no WMD, Bush said Hussein and his kids had to leave Iraq or else they’d be invaded.
Our reason for invading was because Saddam would’t leave Iraq. It had nothing to do with WMD, it had nothing to do with terrorism, it had everything to do with oil. The fact that all these years you haven’t come to the conclusion of everyone else in the world only serves to prove the extent for which you choose to remain willfully ignorant.
Nathan, it’s people like you that are the reason hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead and over 4,000 Americans (excluding the contractors and suicides) are dead. Your “Commander in Chief” is a war criminal and deserves his own Nuremburg Trial (yes, Americans hold trials, war criminals like Bush don’t).
WS Clark,
Yes, in March 2003 Saddam did possess WMD’s.
Just not anywhere near the extent to what we and many others believed.
“Yes, in March 2003 Saddam did possess WMD’s.”
End of conversation – no point in further discussion.
WS Clark,
It is because of the insurgents, terrorists, secretarian violence, and Iranian interference that so many people are dead including our troops.
WS Clark,
I guess you didn’t see that last sentence there did you?
Just not anywhere near the extent to what we and many others believed.
The Inspectors found WMD’s after the invasion. They were so few and so little that it was practically nothing. But they were still there.
My only point…
End of conversation – no point in further discussion.
“The Inspectors found WMD’s after the invasion”
When? If you are referring to the 500 discarded artillery shells that dated pre-Gulf War then you are really stretching a point to the max……….
They found those shells one and two at a time with only traces of nerve gas – none of the shells were usable in the least.
If that is your justification for war, then you must simply be blood-thirsty.
I
“Yes, in March 2003 Saddam did possess WMD’s.”
Actually quite the opposite. But since when did blatant facts ever stop you from telling lies?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm
“Kay reported in October that his team found “dozens of WMD-related program activities” that Iraq was required to reveal to U.N. inspectors but did not. However, he said he found no actual WMDs.”
Proven Nathan wrong is easier than breathing. Yet I doubt Nathan will ever get educated, he has refused to for years.
The reasons for ALL the war deaths in Iraq are because the idiot in charge started an illegal war and then didn’t have the sense to leave thus began an occupation that continues today AND NO ONE IS ANY SAFER! In fact, bush has increased the numbers of terrorists and made the world a more dangerous place!
Meantime, the just war was neglected.
6 months, 26 days, 11 hours, 3 minutes
Be ever vigilant! This madman can cause even more death and destruction in the waning days of his administration.
………….it is now proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the barbarian price clan are “christian” terrorists who are as dangerous as bin-Laden to our great nation.
………….isn’t it time to ship them off to Gitmo?
WS Clark,
As I said:
“Just not anywhere near the extent to what we and many others believed.”
Of course that is not my justification for war.
Apophis,
Is lying a trait you think a public school teacher should have?
I think you are better than this. You should strive to be an example of honor and trust for those you seek to educate.
Posting such garbage about my father and I is so unbecoming of you.
“Of course that is not my justification for war.”
So WHAT is your justification for War?
Saddam was a bbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddd man?
There are lots of bad men in the world. Damn, Putin makes Saddam look like a Girl Scout. Mugabe makes Putin look like a toddler in diapers.
Why didn’t we invade Russia or Zimbabwe?
Nathaniel should carefully read the IAEA’s statement.
March 7 2003 | New York, USA
Statement to the United Nations Security Council
‘The Status of Nuclear Inspections in Iraq: An Update’
http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Statements/2003/ebsp2003n006.shtml
March 20, 2003, the invasion of Iraq began.
“Posting such garbage about my father and I is so unbecoming of you.”
And the comments your father makes about Apophis are somehow justified?
“I hope the MSM has learned its lesson.”
So do I. They fell for the Bush line hook, line and sinker in selling the invasion. Maybe now they are bit more cautious in swallowing the Bush line.
Nathaniel
Posted June 27, 2008 at 9:08 pm | Permalink
Apophis,
Is lying a trait you think a public school teacher should have?
I think you are better than this. You should strive to be an example of honor and trust for those you seek to educate.
Posting such garbage about my father and I is so unbecoming of you.
***********************************************************************************
The truth hurts price?
Apophis,
There is no truth in what you posted.
WS Clark,
I am pretty sure my father has not accused Apophis of being a terrorist that should be taken to Gitmo.
Because you say bad things about Regular do you think it is ok for him to say bad things about your granddaughter and you doing things?
“I am pretty sure my father has not accused Apophis of being a terrorist that should be taken to Gitmo.”
No, but he has attacked Apophis because he is a teacher and has discredited his profession.
“Because you say bad things about Regular do you think it is ok for him to say bad things about your granddaughter and you doing things?”
As I have said, I am fair game – take your best shot – my granddaughter is off limits.
WS Clark,
While my father was a bit more harsh than I am recently, do you think that the way Apophis trolls my father and I constanly saying the mean things he does is becoming of a teacher?
Neither my father or I have said one thing to him today and my father has not even posted in this thread.
Here is Apophis saying we are both terrorists?
I think any reasonable person would start to wonder about this person Apophis being a teacher and the credibility of him if this is what he is doing on a public blog.
“do you think that the way Apophis trolls my father and I constanly saying the mean things he does is becoming of a teacher?”
Is the comments that your father makes about Apophis becoming of his (your father’s) station in life?
“Here is Apophis saying we are both terrorists?”
Because you both support indefinite imprisonment without recourse for Gitmo detainees.
“being a teacher and the credibility of him if this is what he is doing on a public blog.”
And the same could be easily said about your being a Marine and a CC holder.
It’s a two way street – it’s not just what ever the direction that the Price’s want to go.
Naw, the MSM just hates admitting that George Bush was right and his policies are working.
lol
lol
lol
all together now…
everything is wonderful, in it’s own way.
ur an idiot.
WS Clark,
This is ALL Apophis does though.
I can’t remember the last time he was just in a discussion.
He simply drops in and says something like that about my father or I or whoever else.
My father didn’t start off saying bad things about him.
After many times of Apophis dropping into a topic you have to start to get worried about someone like him saying he is a public educater.
I seriously don’t expect you of all people to grasp the concept though.
The only thing that gets your attention is if someone says something about your granddaughter….
Good night, all.
Have a good weekend.
Do something else besides blogging the whole time period.
Watched the story of Dan Pearl’s widow tonight. It was incredibly sad. It was called A Mighty Heart, I would recommend it. Very powerful.
lindainks55
Posted June 27, 2008 at 8:57 pm | Permalink
The reasons for ALL the war deaths in Iraq are because the idiot in charge started an illegal war and then didn’t have the sense to leave thus began an occupation that continues today AND NO ONE IS ANY SAFER! In fact, bush has increased the numbers of terrorists and made the world a more dangerous place!
————————-
Looks like lindainks left all reason and reasonable last nite back on our group discussion.
Let’s see…
…idiot in charge
…illegal war
…increased terrorists
Why lindainks, you’re the best propaganda machine that Al Qaeda could ever hope to buy.
Congratulations!
“The only thing that gets your attention is if someone says something about your granddaughter….”
One, my granddaughter is eight years old – she is off limits – no excuses.
“I can’t remember the last time he was just in a discussion.”
He has frequent discussions but has limited time to post. He has a quite honorable profession that should be respected, not denigrated, as your father does often.
You never answered my question James.
Could you hand a grieving mother a folded flag with a clear conscience?
YOU have worked tirelessly toward “acceptable losses”.
It seems you have succeeded. People will die so that you and your politics can be right.
How does that feel?
WS Clark,
When Apophis stops saying the pure and absolute crap he does about my father and I we will no longer have any reason to question his profession.
Until then, my opinion about why a teacher would act the way he does on a public blog stands.
And I believe that is basically all my father has ever said either.
“When Apophis stops saying the pure and absolute crap he does about my father and I we will no longer have any reason to question his profession.”
So, as been stated here before, the Price Position on Blog Decorum is “you stop, then maybe we’ll stop.”
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………………….
Forgive me for saying that your position is a bit hypocritical given the claim that both of you make about being “good Christians.”
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” – J. Christ 30 CE.
In other words, you are both phucking hypocrites.
Christ……………………………………
#
BlueJay
Posted June 27, 2008 at 11:10 pm | Permalink
You never answered my question James.
Could you hand a grieving mother a folded flag with a clear conscience?
———————–
A good question with a weasel motive.
I have handed a grieving mother a folded flag, several times.
WS Clark,
You can’t make any deals for Apophis.
You can’t speak for him.
I have said nothing to him here that is mean or rude.
Now you call my father and I Hypocrites?
I have already stopped. I did so last night.
I am no Hypocrite.
The question I have for you is why do you only have concern for what my father has said in the past?
Why do you have no condemnation for what Apophis has said here today?
Well James?
You? Well you are out of the way.
You denounce public assistance WHILE you yourself are on it.
YOU have no son or daughter to lose in Iraq. SO you tirelessly advocate here to make the losses in Iraq “acceptable”.
The party you have chosen sure seems to see the losses you CLAIM as acceptable.
It is Democrats fighting for the benefits you SAY you have earned.
But I want to hold you to your own standards.
IF and it is a big if, you were injured in service to this country, I call that “acceptable losses”. I say I do not want to pay for your benefits. You are amply capable in a data entry or phone answering capacity.
Renounce your benefits and get a job better than saying that losses other than your own are “acceptable”.
“You denounce public assistance WHILE you yourself are on it.”
You people try to make an earned benefit program (veteran pay) with the gimme (unearned) welfare program. It doesn’t wash. It may make you feel better, but you know it’s not the same.
He did something, you didn’t.
BlueJay,
You don’t have a son or daughter to lose in Iraq either.
Everyone that is in Iraq has volunteered to be in the military as well.
Now that we are 5 years into the war, we can say that those who have joined or reenlisted all did so know that they could have to go to war.
So why do you try to hold someone to a standard that you can’t even meet?
Who are you to judge what Regulars disabilities are?
The closest you have gotten to him was sriving by.
Perhaps you shouldn’t speak about things you have no clue about.
Perhaps you shouldn’t speak about such personal things when they are not part of the topic.
BlueJay,
The multi-nic’d ‘Regular’ cannot get a job.
That would reduce the time he has to post LIES on the WE Blog about climate science, levee failures, other posters beliefs, etc…
The multi-nic’d ‘Regular’ has to defend his LONG Kansas family heritage, and what he believes are “KANSAS VALUES”, by posting all of those LIES.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
……..marine-BOY, I will never stop coming after either you or your daddy.
The fact that this is a “public blog” has no relevence to my profession. You keep blathering on about this; I don’t get it. What I do on my time is my business as long as it does not break the law.
Sorry, annoying a reichwinger who thinks the Earth is only 8000 years old isn’t a crime in this country. It might be a crime in an intolerant theocracy that supports terrorism. You make whatever inferences you want from that.
See, this is why there is so much war in the world…stupid and stubborn men who love nothing more than to beat their chests, cry their war hoops, and tear each other down. Doesn’t matter if you’re liberal or conservative, you’re all the same with the exception of a rare few.
The world will NEVER change for the better while the men are running it.
Get over yourselves.
Mary_Caruso: Wasn’t it Maggie Thtcher who sent the British off to the Falklands to “rescue” a few acres of useless land that really belonged to Argentina? And wasn’t it Indira Ghandi who expanded India’s interests in Nepal, got rid of the Portugese 400 year old enclave and slaughtered Sikhs in their holy temple to put down a nationalist movement in the Punjab and maintained the fricition with both Pakistan and China? Golda Meir was not making chicken soup in the war against Egypt but implemented the agressive stance still in use to-day by the govenrnment in Israel. 2 European states have women in charge but they are in Afganisan. Mary, when women are in power they act exactly as men, that is for the best interestes of their ountry as they see it. How many women in congress voted against Iraq?
“Could you hand a grieving mother a folded flag with a clear conscience?”
The burial ceremony of our men and women who have fallen in while is service to their country, is not a reflection of the politic’s of the day.
It is to honor these young men and women who gave the ultimate sacrafice for their nation. Regardless of the circumstances of their deaths; it could be combat, non-combat, in theatre, in CONUS in a motorcylce accident, results of long term illness (cancer), or any veteran who dies years after their service to country.
The folded flag is presented to the family on behalf of a proud and grateful nation.
I have had the duty of participation in a number of funeral details in while in uniform, for both combat and noncombat related deaths, I can say that those participating are concerned about honoring their fallen brethren and respect for the family.
Following the Beruit bombing, when we were suddenly called upon for mulitple ceremonies in a short amount of time, not once, during the ceremony, when invited to a wake, or sandwich at the family home following the burial, did anyone ever bring up the politic’s of the day associated with the death.
“Perhaps you shouldn’t speak about such personal things when they are not part of the topic.”
It is very much part of the topic Nathan.
James is here every day every way selling the concept of acceptable losses in Iraq.
I merely suggest that he himself should be seen and see himself as an “acceptable loss”.
CF2K says: Stupid and convinced of your own correctness is no way to go through life, chrisfrommactown.
Do you ever read your own posts? You people are so easy to read. When you have lost the argument, you always resort to the personnel attacks. You have learned well from the Clintons.
“sursum”…for every example you give, I can give you a thousand on the opposite side.
Just look to the blog if you doubt what I say..who spends more time on the blog aggressively attacking each other…men or women?
“Everyone that is in Iraq has volunteered to be in the military as well.”
I guess that justifies using them as cannon fodder. Why do you hate the soldiers so much Nathan? Are you upset because you spent your entire time in Iraq behind a desk?
Maggotpunk–
Somebody’s got to fire the latrines . . .
Mary has a good point, you know.
Nothing posted on the blog really matters a whit. You think you have won a point at some place. Nope. It’s gone.
Especially the personal bickering. I’m sure anyone reading it wonder why these nuts think anyone cares what they think.
So, I’m stepping away for a while. When Steven or someone mentioned this blog had been around 3 years, I thought; that’s just too damn long indulging in something this frivolous and meaningless. Later; maybe.
Peace. Out.
Ya know, you dont have to be a vet to honor them at their funerals. I started playing Taps at military funerals here when I was in Jr. High. Of course now, I and the other trumpet blowers have been replaced by a tape recording. We have one of four Veterans Cemetaries in Kansas here, and I think they still use a tape recording of Taps.
But.. the number of living vets and the VFW post grows smaller even as the number of funerals increase. I’ve heard there is a volunteer program to get Taps played live again. I cant remember the name, but I wish it would succeed. You know there must be hundreds of trumpets gathering dust in closets that could be put to good use.
I just think it’s a god damn shame that we cant even honor vets with a LIVE performance of Taps. At least the local band director played at my Dad’s funeral. And I still have the flag from the graveside ceremony. Makes me cry every time I look at it.
Maybe that’s why it pisses me off when the cons here say the libs dont love their country or honor the service of vets. I also used to be part of a trumpet trio that played the Star Spangled Banner too. It was so beautiful it could bring folks to tears.
That music doesnt just belong to the cons.
..and maybe all that is part of why it hurts so much that my fellow citizens and my country refuse to grant my partner and I equality for such a basic right as marriage.
I was raised to believe in one thing. But the reality is something quite different. It’s disappointing, to say the least…
CapnAmerica,
We had a company to clean out the Porta-johns twice a day.
They were a bunch of young men from the Eastern Block.
Really nice guys.
KFG,
The Marine Corps uses a new recorded trumpet. It looks and feels just like the real thing. Only the inside is a recorder with taps in it that all you have to do is push the button to play.
Unfortunately, it is rather a logistical nightmare to want a live performance of taps at every funeral.
The reason the VFW shrinks is because it is for combat veterans. You have to have actually been under fire to be part of the organization.
Most of them are WWII and Korean war vets. Figuring that there have been few wars since then that so many troops have actually taken fire in combat, there are not that many more to join.
Nathan, a recording is a recording. And TAPS is the EASIEST thing in the world to play. Hell, the VFW guys used to come and get me out of school to play for funerals. There are lots of kids in band, and old timers like me who would GLADLY play Taps. I know, with so many funerals now, it might not be possible to always have a live performance, but it should be done whenever possible. The recordings are just too perfect.
The VFW guys started getting me out of school when I was 11 or 12 and I just thought it was a HUGE honor to do it. They even paid me five bucks, big money back then. And when they went back to the post to put up the guns and flags and have a shot and a beer, they gave me a Coke and let me listen to them talk for a while before someone figured out I really should be in school… heheheh!
I learned patriotism from the best.
My Dad was a WWII vet and a member of the post, but he rarely was part of the honor guard. It was usually the same guys who did it, and they were damn good at it. Dad filled in sometimes, but he couldnt fit in his uniform anymore. But I think all he had to have was his military hat, black pants and white shirt.
Now imagine, today, a buncha old men picking up a twelve year old girl at school, driving off with her, taking her to the VFW bar, and then bringing her back in time to catch the bus home! THAT would be front page scandal nowdays. It was just fun and educational back then. And like I said, a huge honor! I did it until I went to college. I played Memorial Day services as well.
I still remember how that bar smelled, like old cigs and stale beer, but I thought it was the coolest place in the world with the coolest guys ever.
The world sure has changed. And I’m not sure for the better.
“We had a company to clean out the Porta-johns twice a day.”
Military is going soft. Corporate chain restaurants, billiard tables, cable tv, prostitutes on the taxpayer dime. It’s a regular resort. I guess when pappy has money life is easier in the military, just ask your pResident.
God I sound old, dont I?
I had the best freakin’ childhood ever.
Maybe that’s why I’m always disappointed as an adult.
It just wasnt supposed to BE this way…
Maggotpunk,
It is a matter of utilizing man power better.
The Military has figured out that it doesn’t make much sense for them to have some Lcpl that they have invested around 150k in training to clean a toilet when that Lcpl has skills in winning battles and fighting.
So it is more cost effective to hire a bunch of guys from the Eastern Block to drive around all day in a poop truck cleaning the porta-johns.
Over the last couple of decades the Miltary has been shifting to more contracts like these for jobs like these.
“Over the last couple of decades the Miltary has been shifting to more contracts like these for jobs like these.”
Cha-ching!
What’s good for Halliburton is good for the nation. Sucks to be GM.
And then there’s BLACKWATER!
farmgrll, you don’t sound old at all! You sound sensible and nostalgic for a time gone by. I got a real chuckle out of the old guys pickin’ up the 12 year old… Oh my, guess we won’t have many who get to learn life and patriotism from the experts in our paranoid world of today!
An old fashioned soda fountain with friendly interesting conversation! I’m awed and jealous and planning to participate one of these days!
Nathan?
The privatizing of the support of war makes war a for profit enterprise.
That’s NOT a good thing for the folks who have to do the actual fighting. There’ll ALWAYS be somebody ready to collect a fat contract for washing socks or peeling spuds.
Kfg
Boy do I know what you mean about taps.
My Grandfather was in World War II. He was NOT a good father for my dad. I didn’t even MEET him until I was like 8. He hadn’t seen his only son in more than 30 years.
When I was about 12, My Grand dad had a stroke.
After seeing him only a few times a year for a few years, I now would be seeing a LOT of him as he was moved from Missouri to the Wichita VA hospital.
He was aware of us, but unable to speak or get out of bed. Over the next several months, he deteriorated steadily. He was finally granted the release of death nearly a year later.
At his funeral at the military cemetery, TWO buglers blew taps. One would play a phrase and then the other would echo it …more softly.
It was surpassingly beautiful, mournful, and final. I really don’t have the words to describe it.
All those months of suffering and pain and a lot of emotion let go just in the short playing of taps.
And now they use a recorded bugle?
I find that very very sad.
“It is a matter of utilizing man power better.”
No, it’s more about $$$. Those contractors that were enslaved still cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don’t know about you but it doesn’t cost me $100 to do a load of laundry. But what’s money when the tab is picked up by taxpayers eh? Can’t have a self-sufficient military, it might cut into tee time.
1) Kids dont play instruments anymore… just video games, and Ipods…
2) Remember a few years back, when the media discovered the word, “gravitas”?? Well, it looks like Nathan has discovered the word “decorum” and now intends to use it against an blogger with whom he disagrees, that dares to disagree with him or his daddy… how sweet…
3) This “decorum” or “civility” thing has been played (or played with) several different times over the past few years… It doesnt seem to last any longer, than it takes somebody to debut a new sock puppet nic… and awayyyyyy we goooo all over again!! Oh gee, I can hardly wait!! LOL
Have a fun weekend!!
Chas…my 11 yr old granddaughter plays the flute in the school band…nothing like going to a band concert where 30 5th graders are playing together…my ears are still swollen from the experience!
Mary, I love going to the middle school band concerts. The band director starts with the youngest grade and moves to the kids who have practiced a couple of years so we get to hear the improvements a couple of years make. Even the differences in the 6th graders from the beginning of the school year to the end are remarkable!
I notice there are many 6th graders and by the time they get to the 8th grade their numbers shrunk. But those that hung in there make up for smaller numbers with skills!
Funny thing is the guys cleaning the porta potties, were making more than the Lt. Col., assuming they were working in Iraq.
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