“The selling point of Mr. Obama’s vision of change is not doctrinaire liberalism or Bush-bashing but an inclusiveness that he believes can start to relieve Washington’s gridlock much as it animated his campaign,†wrote New York Times columnist Frank Rich, arguing that the Obama/McCain race (as was the Obama/Clinton race) is a battle between an optimistic future and an entrenched past. “Some of that inclusiveness is racial, ethnic and generational, in the casual, what’s-the-big-deal manner of post-boomer Americans already swimming in our country’s rapidly expanding demographic pool. Some of it is post-partisan: he acknowledges that Republicans, Ronald Reagan included, can have ideas.
“Opponents who dismiss this as wussy naivete do so at their own risk. They at once call attention to the expiring shelf life of their own Clinton-Bush-vintage panaceas and lull themselves into underestimating Mr. Obama’s political killer instincts.â€
139 Comments
As with all ‘progressives’ in the recent past, Obama is really just not saying that his proposals are simply far left wing policies. He is running a marketing strategy of “I’m not a liberal” all the while his platform is as liberal as can be.
It is doctrinaire liberalism.
Reminds me of a guy back in 1960 who was also hated for his religion (at least in my part of the country)
In the same fashion McCain is touting himself as a “maverick” when the reality shows he is still in lock step with this WPE.
Just what is this “Change”?
Broad-based political themes like this sound good, until you get to asking about the specifics. And there, right in the details as usual, is the devil. Then you realize that it is politics as usual, just with a different salesman.
Man, that is a cynical, pessimistic view. I gotta quit hanging around here so much.
I would be more than pleased if the next occupant of the White House could , after either 4 or 8 years, bring things even closely back to what existed before the current moron-in-charge mangled them.
That would qualify as a major accomplishment!
There’s a big, brown cloud in the city,
And the countryside’s a sin.
An’ the price of life is too high to give up,
Gotta come down again.
When the world wide war is over and done,
And the dream of peace comes true.
We’ll all be drinkin’ free bubble-ubb,
Eatin’ that rainbow stew.
When they find out how to burn water,
And the gasoline car is gone.
When an airplane flies without any fuel,
And the satellite heats our home.
One of these days when the air clears up,
And the sun comes shinin’ through.
We’ll all be drinkin’ free bubble-ubb,
An’ eatin’ that rainbow stew.
Eatin’ rainbow stew in a silver spoon,
Underneath that sky of blue.
All be drinkin’ free bubble-ubb,
An’ eatin’ that rainbow stew.
You don’t have to get high to get happy,
Just think about what’s in store.
When people start doin’ what they oughta be doin’,
Then they won’t be booin’ no more.
When a President goes through the White House door,
An’ does what he says he’ll do.
We’ll all be drinkin’ free bubble-ubb,
Eatin’ that rainbow stew.
Eatin’ rainbow stew in a silver spoon,
Underneath that sky of blue.
We’ll all be drinkin’ that free bubble-ubb,
Eatin’ some rainbow stew.
Eatin’ rainbow stew in a silver spoon,
Underneath that sky of blue.
All be drinkin’ that free bubble-ubb,
Eatin’ rainbow stew.
“outlander” trots out a loser’s meme with –
“Broad-based political themes like this sound good, until you get to asking about the specifics.”
See, this is why yours is such a false issue:
Nobody — McSame or Obama or Ron Paul or Cynthia McKinney or anyone — is gonna get their proposals passed through the Congress of the United States without the details being tweaked by committees and amendments and pork and political pressures.
And there’s no political office on the planet more dependent and more important on what George HW Bush dismissed as “the vision thing.”
When Dwight Eisenhower approved the logistics of D-Day, he wasn’t sitting down and calculating how many motorcycles for couriers needed to be shipped to Normandy two days later. Douglas MacArthur didn’t piddle his time away deciiding just how many bullets would be issued to each Marine fighting on Iwo Jima.
That’s not what leaders do.
It’s significant, “outlander,” that you admit –
“Broad-based political themes like this sound good.”
When Lincoln declared his candidacy by declaring “A house divided cannot stand,” he didn’t go into the details of how the Union might fight in Vicksburg.” When FDR said, “The only thing we have to fear is… fear itself,” he didn’t reel of a list of what WPA laborers might earn for a day’s work. When JFK said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country,” he didn’t go off on the details of how Peace Corps volunteers might get to Third World countries (commercial flights or tramp freighters?)
“Broad-based political themes” are the job of a Leader.
And the biggest “broad-based political theme” of Barack Obama’s candidacy is this: America is sick and tired of George WMD Bush’s vision of America. The world is rejoicing that it’s survived (knock wood) the utterly misguided leadership of Shrub/Dick.
Go Obama Go!
If I have to live through at least 4 yrs of looking at McSame’s sneers, snickering, and derogatory style of dealing with his opponents, I swear I’ll move out of this county. I’m so sick of these bozos running our country down the drain. I can’t take it anymore. It’s long past time for common sense, dignity, and intelligence in the Whits House again, not more of the same partisan bickering that has overshadowed and divided our country the last 8 yrs.
“outlander” trots out a loser’s meme…- Monkeyhawk
————-
Your initial knee jerk (emphasis on jerk) partisan reaction exposes your empty words.
Like Frank Rich said, some of you prefer the past, even if it’s uncomfortable for you; some of us prefer an optimistic future.
Obama is selling hope and change for the better.
What is McCain selling?
Four more years.
David Limbaugh,
“Obama’s mythical narrative that he can unify Americans and usher in an era of “hope” will be irresistible to many who are hungrier for Kumbaya than any particular policy agenda.”
“David Limbaugh”
Limbaugh – now THERE’S a name you can trust.
/sarcasm/
I posted a lot of ideas in response to “outlander.”
“outlander” responded with name-calling and nothing else.
“Your initial knee jerk (emphasis on jerk)…”
In other words, you’ve been pwned.
Obama is selling hope and change for the better.
—————
I think they call that “blue sky” WS. The problem is that you can’t govern giving the people blue sky. They want something more substantial. And when you give to one, you must take from another. Therein lies the rub and governmental politics in a nutshell. It is unavoidable. I see nothing here that gives me hope that folks are willing to compromise their own selfish interests.
In other words, you’ve been pwned.
—————-
How can you say that about me you rtyak!
“They want something more substantial.”
Visit his website – he offers very clear proposals for the issues that face our country.
http://www.barackobama.com/index.php
“When JFK said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country,””
You should be ashamed using those words. You people have taken what Kennedy said and turned them around to “what can the country do for me”?
Gimme healthcare? Gimme a “living” wage?
Gimme extended then extended again unemployment benifits? Gimme gimme
“Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new “Making Work Pay” tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The “Making Work Pay” tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. “
That will eliminate $5,000,000,000 from the budget just in those that do not have to pay anymore. That is a lot of cheddar. With the spending plans he has, how can you possibly fund them?
You can’t, sol. Blue Sky don’t have that much dough.
There are many of Obama’s “ideas” that I oppose. in fact, He is probably one of the most left of center Senators, and certainly one of the most left of center Presidential candidates in a long time. SO, why do I, as a conservative, support him? Because he does offer a vision of change. Because there are things that need change. Because, so far, I have not seen the sameohsameoh from him. Perhaps the coming election cycle will reveal it, I don;t know. I know McCain is a weasal. Just another politician. Same as Hillary was. I will take the chance of going with Barak Obama, and because he is honest enough to state his positions (which are clearly to the left and way to costly) we can work on the details, each giving some in the other’s directions. Perhaps not. That’s what the next eleciton cycle will be about. The Democrats will most likely be in charge of the Senate, the House, and the Presidecy. Not so much as they are so great, but the Republicans have failed badly. This election cycle is about maybe doing something a different way. And if Obama stays as far to the left as I perecieve him to be? Well, other than judges, the President can only do so much of a long lasting effect. RIght now, I am sick of BUsh, and sick of McCain. I am ready for a change.
Thought for the day
A TAXPAYER voting for a democrat ….
IS LIKE A CHICKEN voting for Colonel Sanders …….
Unfortunately there are a lot of Chicken voters.
Fix our Health Care Crisis:
Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Ups:
Support Innovation and High-Tech Job Creation:
Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators:
Support Rural Small Businesses:
All of te above are extremely expensive. The only tax info I have seen so far is that he will cut taxes on the ‘middle class’. How is he going to fund all of this? Someone is going to get their asses kicked with excessive taxation.
M H — Outlander is already Flaming — Dont let him get started this early!!
Sol says:
“With the spending plans he has, how can you possibly fund them?”
Sol – I remember saying something similar a while back when Bush cut taxes on the high income folks.. I said something to the effect of “How can you cut taxes, and expect more revenue?”
I was put down and demeaned for being stupid, and not knowing that when you cut taxes, you stimulate economic growth.
I suspect maybe Obama is thinking along those same lines… Hmmmm???
When you are talking about corporate taxes, you are talking about freeing up very large sums of money for those corporations. In general, that is fed back into the company. Either buying more equipment, R&D, hiring new employees…
Take for example the ‘stimulus’ checks Bush handed out. When you throw money at average Joes, not much happens.
Bush hasn’t had the raging social programs Obama is talking about. We are wasting trillions in Iraq. Borrow and spend.
Is Obama thinking along those lines as well? Borrow and spend?
Why hasn’t Obama produced his plan to pay for these things?
Sigh….
Maybe this is an election where I join the other 50% of the country and just don’t bother to vote. Why bother?
Optimism my ass. Let him sell optimism and bipartisanship in the fall when gas is 6 dollars a gallon.
Osama Obama – the Democratic Party’s love child.
Senator Obama, tell us what foreign leaders or foreign country experience you have.
“Well, none. But let me state now that I will talk to anyone, anytime, anyplace.”
Senator Obama, tell us about your military experience.
“Well, I’ve ’spoken’ to several veterans’ groups.”
Senator Obama,tell us how you will solve the gas crisis.
“Well, I’ll raise taxes so we as a nation will consume less and start energy programs that will take decades to complete.”
Senator Obama, you don’t have a clue do you?
“Well, that’s not entirely true. I’ve ridden the coat-tails of my change policy, tugged on the skirt of hope and unbuttoned the blouse of appeal for the American Public.”
Thank you Senator Obama for those precise (cough) answers.
I don’t think it matters what “its” called — blue sky, hope, optimism… Attitudes can and do make a difference. When Obama speaks to me as an adult, without the sneers and arrogance, I know I must accept personal responsibility in order to achieve our common goals. He makes me want to be a partner in improving our country.
That’s the optimistic future Obama convinces me is possible. It’s refreshing and I look forward to that future.
And the John McCain rationale for voting for him………………………..
“Well, my friends, I am not George WMD Bush – but I vote with George 95% of the time – but I’m not George WMD Bush.”
Appointments of more reasonable judges is NO small consideration!
I want and hope for our soldiers home, affordable health care for everyone, NCLB left behind, science respected, an end to corporate welfare, accountability in government, our civil rights protected and restored…
I won’t consider it a total loss if all we get are those more reasonable judge appointments.
John McCain who sets the example of personal financial responsibility by accepting $58,000 annually in disability payments when he can’t spend his wife’s fortune if he lives two more lifetimes.
Someone who probably voted for Dubya (twice) criticizing “Osama-Obama” (or any politician) about experience and competence. OH THE IRONY!!!!
Kind of funny. Ask a question about how Obama will pay for ‘Blue Sky’ and in return, I get… more ‘Blue Sky’ and “John McCain! John McCain!”
McCain is a joke for many many reasons, but I am finding more and more that Obama lacks anything tangible. I haven’t really heard any of his supporters on her give anything but fluff.
*supporters on her *
supporters on here
Hey editors?
Your photo is out of date.
“Change we can believe in” worked.
For half the party. It never convinced me.
He has changed it now to “Change that works for you”.
So, I guess I’ll just sit back and see how it is this “change” works for me.
I’ll just hum the theme from “Jeapordy” while I wait.
Obama’s message is scaring the crap out of the Corporatocracy and their willing idiots, the Limbaugh listeners.
Every since FDR, the Corporatocracy has gotten more and more powerful by pitting Americans against one another–the rural against the urban, the “communists” against the communist hunters, the working class against the latte liberals, the Israeli lobby against the Arab lobby, the blacks against the whites, the whites against the browns, the abortionists against the pro-lifers, the gays against the straights, the moral majority against Hollyfornia, etc. etc.
You end the rage and fear fueled divisiveness and you’ve got a hell of a movement on your hands. The next thing you know, tax money will be going to poor people instead of the filthy, stinking rich. Everybody will have health care, not just people with good jobs, and it’ll be cheaper and better to boot. You’ll have new technologies brought on line that benefit all Americans, not just the entrenched oil companies.
Hell, yes, the Corprotocracy has to stop Obamaism. The next step is real democracy instead of rule by the rich and powerful.
It just dawned on me, JR.
If you acheive political power using the same tactics that your oppressors used against you, have you really won?
I think the reason this unknown mixed race dude with the middle name of “Hussein” swept to victory is that he seeks to break the vicious cycle of crushing the opposition only to then be crushed oneself.
tax money will be going to poor people instead of the filthy, stinking rich
Please show where tax dollars are being spent on the ‘filthy, stinking rich’.
You disdain for the successful has to be unhealthy. Don’t you yourself earn north of 6 figures? Are you filthy and stinking?
Everybody will have health care, not just people with good jobs, and it’ll be cheaper and better to boot.
I beg to differ. If you remove competition, you remove the desire to excel.
You’ll have new technologies brought on line that benefit all Americans,
From where exactly?
And all I still see is Blue Sky fluff.
your…
“Swept” to victory?
That’s a bit of an overstatement don’t you think?
Obama and his message have already been bought.
But only by the people who WANTED to buy it.
He still has a lot of convincing to do.
As to giving back a bit of what I’ve been given? I’d kind of like at least a taste of that.
Chas
Posted June 10, 2008 at 10:21 am | Permalink
Sol says:
“With the spending plans he has, how can you possibly fund them?”
Sol – I remember saying something similar a while back when Bush cut taxes on the high income folks.. I said something to the effect of “How can you cut taxes, and expect more revenue?”
I was put down and demeaned for being stupid, and not knowing that when you cut taxes, you stimulate economic growth.
———————–
Actually Chas if you do your own research on the revenue increase after a tax cut you won’t appear so stupid next time.
Glad to see you have finally seen the light. Higher corporate taxes will only increase prices to the consumer. Logic. Why do libs have such a problem with that?
lindainks55
Posted June 10, 2008 at 10:46 am | Permalink
I don’t think it matters what “its” called — blue sky, hope, optimism… Attitudes can and do make a difference. When Obama speaks to me as an adult, without the sneers and arrogance, I know I must accept personal responsibility in order to achieve our common goals. He makes me want to be a partner in improving our country.
That’s the optimistic future Obama convinces me is possible. It’s refreshing and I look forward to that future.
——————————
Linda they have drugs that give you that same euphoric feeling but when they wear off as they always do then the reality of the world you live in returns.
Obama has spouted rethoric about ‘change’ with no reality about how he can achieve that change. They will dance in the street when/if he is elected. Then his plans will be implemented. Reality is back. Know who you elect.
“Higher corporate taxes will only increase prices to the consumer. Logic. Why do libs have such a problem with that?”
——————-
Could be that we are able to see where bushco economics have taken us.
I know we all have different perspectives and we see things very differently. Maybe you could share where you see success in our current economy?
You know, okobserver, I don’t need drugs to be optimistic. I plan to do a better job of accepting my personal responsibilities for the privilege of being an American. Senator Obama has inspired me to that goal. I firmly believe that working together can affect a change in our reality. I plan to give it a good chance!
You have the freedom to continue to be insulting, to complain, to vote for your choice of candidate, to do whatever you feel as long as it’s legal or you aren’t caught.
I don’t think your advice inspires confidence so I’ll just ignore it.
I see a struggling economy weakened because we made a decision years ago to give the control of a large part of our economy to foreign countries. I still see a healthy economy. It will rebound given time.
If taxes are increased on our major corporations I see more unemployed, higher prices for products they make, a weakened economy with more people added to the bottom tier. Look at the economic models of other countries. Higher taxes have never birthed a better economy.
Under Bush linda, we have had a very good economy whether the left admits that or not. The war is something that few will agree on but the economy speaks for itself. Teens not working this summer are teens that don’t want to work. I drove by 5 fast food shops in a row yesterday all with help wanted signs out.
We can look at the real picture or convince ourselves the media must be right and we are in a recession heading for a depression. Won’t be true but if they can convince the majority of sheep that is it – well then it is.
Drill here, Drill now!
TV evangelist inspire lots of people. Just like Obama. Show me the details. Don’t expect me to believe in a cotton candy world. It disolves and goes away. Not insulting just realistic.
My advise to look at reality is not inspiring but Obama’s pie in the sky is. That says a lot about his followers.
outlander,
Just out of curiosity, were you and your family better off between 1992 and 2000 or between 2001 and currently?
Conservatives, I believe, genuinely think that times should be horrible under prgogressive leadership. That does not match my experience.
Sorry, fellas, we had a better pizza.
Dear Libs:
Corporations do not pay taxes. Their customers do.
Corporations are just the middle man.
In your description of the success of our current economy do you see more than platitudes? Generalities at best.
You assume much when you think I haven’t studied economic models, haven’t kept abreast of what is happening, aren’t as well informed as you. In fact, you assume too much when you place a label on me.
StevenEDavis you asked Outlander if he was better off under Clinton or Bush. I can honestly say I have been better under Bush until the fuel prices went up.
So do we lay the increase on Bush, Clinton, Reagan, or Carter? I say they all share the blame and anyone foolish enough to think that when/if Obama is elected prices will go way down had better invest in a good bicycle now before the price is out of sight.
When libs and cons think that the other party should bear all of the blame and their own party has all of the answers then we are both deceived. Education, knowing what we can expect from politicians and what we should be doing will solve this problem.
Elect the right people, let them know emphatically and often what we expect and hold their feet to the fire until they do it.
Drill here, drill now!
“Show me the details.”
———————
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
lindainks55
Posted June 10, 2008 at 11:51 am | Permalink
You know, okobserver, I don’t need drugs to be optimistic. I plan to do a better job of accepting my personal responsibilities for the privilege of being an American. Senator Obama has inspired me to that goal. I firmly believe that working together can affect a change in our reality. I plan to give it a good chance!
—————————
Funny, I thought it was the individual that took responsibility first.
Didn’t realize we had to wait on a politician to tell us what to do.
Perhaps its the Michelle Obama model of responsibility.
I’m really proud to be an American now that my husband is running for President, before…not so much.
Linda I didn’t place any label on you. I simply said that Obama is selling pie in the sky. If you identify with that – well what can I say.
By quoting the statistics of our current economy I would be shouted down by the naysayers who want to believe that Bush hasn’t done anything well during his tenure. It’s out there. Study the figures when you look at economic models.
Just curious which economic model did you find that blossomed after a tax increase on the ‘fat cats’ and corporations?
Linda a campaign statement by a candidate running for office isn’t a plan. It’s a promise from a politician and we all know what those are don’t we.
Linda, your link provides info on tax cuts for the ‘middle class’. It talks about some social programs. It does not however discuss how Obama will replace the $5 Billion in lost revenue from just those that he plans to have pay no taxes. I don’t see a plan in there anywhere that shows how he will fund any of his plans.
‘Blue Sky’ and it sounds real good, just want to know how he plans to pay for it all.
Well Regular I can say I have always been proud to be an American whether I agreed with the current president or not.
This mentality is a little scary when they want to occupy the best house in the nation.
Thanks Sol for saying that better than I did.
“Just curious which economic model did you find that blossomed after a tax increase on the ‘fat cats’ and corporations?”
————–
I said something / anything on that subject? Don’t think so.
“…well what can I say.”
————–
Let me assure you — there isn’t anything you can say. I really don’t need any help making up my mind. I’m capable.
I love you dearly linda.
But it’s “put up” time for Obama.
HE has to show “yes He can”. HE has to follow “Yes we can” with…something.
Shifting it to “Yes YOU can”, as I feared he would do and as you seem to embrace? That’s not going to work. I want to see some of this “Change that works for you”.
There are an awful lot of people that are hurting out there. The numbers of such people are about to explode. We already HAVE a party that blames people for their own pain. Obama didn’t run in that party.
Maybe he should have?
Sol says —
“It does not however discuss how Obama will replace the $5 Billion in lost revenue from just those that he plans to have pay no taxes.”
OKOB agrees with that… but disagrees when I ask the question, How can you increase revenue by cutting taxes…
Must be the funny kool aid… again…
Of course, my question is about the tax cuts on the wealthy increasing revenue, and Sol’s question is about tax cuts on the middle income folks increasing revenue (or decreasing) –
So, why do tax cuts on the wealthy increase revenue, and tax cuts on middle income lose $5 billion in revenue??
Sol, I don’t see any “details” from any candidate. I like the overall goals and policies of Obama better than those of any other candidate. I agree with his political philosophy.
Government generates NO income. They take our money and spend that and more. (I also understand I’m not saying anything you don’t know well.)
I like the places Obama wants to spend my money better than the places it’s currently being spent. I have not heard McCain say he would do anything differently than continue bush’s economic policies and I do not agree that is best for our country.
I know you approve of Ron Paul’s economic policies; I don’t. I appreciate Senator Paul’s advocacy and think he brings much to the table that deserves greater attention, but he won’t get my one vote.
Blue Jay says >>>
“There are an awful lot of people that are hurting out there. The numbers of such people are about to explode. We already HAVE a party that blames people for their own pain. Obama didn’t run in that party.”
But, Blue Jay, OKOB just said he/she thinks the economy is pretty healthy!! What do you say to him/her??
Linda,
I think this is the only political site that actually outlines a plan and backs it up with facts/history.
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/debt-and-taxes/
Ron Paul won’t get my vote either. I don’t believe write ins are counted.
Chas,
What is $500 * 10,000,000 ?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#tax-relief
Sol — I didnt question your math… What you jumping on me for??
You all claim that tax cuts for the wealthy provide economic stimulus and growth… Explain why tax cuts for middle income cant do the same??
Blue Jay, I said something poorly as it allowed you to misunderstand.
I don’t place any blame on the many who are hurting badly! Even people of my age and much more comfortable position are having to make choices. I buy differently at the grocery store, my thermostat isn’t set for comfort, I have less to share…
You’ll never hear me say our current economy is good! It’s not.
I can improve and be a better citizen, accept personal responsibilities. Obama has inspired me to that. Things like not buying the sponsor’s goods instead of just complaining about the media’s influence. Really doing something about my weight instead of just complaining about health care. Recycling, because I don’t do my part to protect our environment.
Much like the statement Mrs. Obama made about feeling really proud for the first time, I also feel that pride strongly for the FIRST time. I want to do my part better. I want to really accept responsibility for the privileges I have as an American.
I think together we are stronger. If Obama does nothing more than inspire me and others to do what we can, he has done much. I think he will be a great leader. Shoot, he has me convinced and I’m not easily swayed.
I probably haven’t explained any better. It’s hard to type and wave my arms and I talk best when my hands help. ;-)
I t hought Obama said that the windfall profits tax on big oil will cover his middle income tax cut??
“SolDevVB” asks –
“…link provides info on tax cuts for the ‘middle class’. It talks about some social programs. It does not however discuss how Obama will replace the $5 Billion in lost revenue…”
Oh, I dunno.
End Shrub’s war in Iraq a week early?
lindainks55
Posted June 10, 2008 at 12:06 pm | Permalink
In your description of the success of our current economy do you see more than platitudes? Generalities at best.
You assume much when you think I haven’t studied economic models, haven’t kept abreast of what is happening, aren’t as well informed as you. In fact, you assume too much when you place a label on me.
————————–
lindainks55
Posted June 10, 2008 at 12:21 pm | Permalink
“Just curious which economic model did you find that blossomed after a tax increase on the ‘fat cats’ and corporations?”
————–
I said something / anything on that subject? Don’t think so.
“…well what can I say.”
————–
Let me assure you — there isn’t anything you can say. I really don’t need any help making up my mind. I’m capable.
——————————–
So Linda I can take from these post that you either haven’t studied economic models or really don’t care if the economy of our great nation goes down the tubes with Obama’s lofty promises.
The devil is in the details and Obama has none. Thinking voters will demand more.
To hold back a vote from Obama for any reason means a continuation of current failing policies.
Literally, the economy can’t take anything less than Obama’s change. This country has never found itself in such a serious situation, which is effecting almost every American.
End Shrub’s war in Iraq a week early?
Good one, but that is mostly borrowed money from Japan and China. Doesn’t really get us anywhere except that we stop borrowing… as much.
Chas,
Democrats’ Oil Windfall Tax Plan Fails in Senate Vote
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,364846,00.html
You can’t tax your way out of the huge problem Bush created.
Have you seen the results of Bush’s ’stimulus’ package?
Well okobserver, what I meant is I haven’t read anything you posted that I think deserves any of my consideration. That clear enough for you?
Chas
Posted June 10, 2008 at 12:50 pm | Permalink
I t hought Obama said that the windfall profits tax on big oil will cover his middle income tax cut??
————————
Some people make Obama’s job too easy. First there have to be windfall profits and if you study their financial sheets there aren’t any at this point. A 8.5% profit isn’t windfall teritory. Second this would have to pass the congress and senate before Obama gets a crack at it. Won’t happen.
What is your next plan?
Closed minds have very little interference with their thoughts processes. Yes I understand that.
I don’t think Lincoln approached the dilemna of the growing rift between the North and the South by being ambiguous about where he stood. He may not have laid out the “Anaconda Plan” which involved the siege of Vicksburg until it was conceived much later on after the war actually began, but he was clearly on the side that slavery should not be allowed to spread into the new territories in the west. He also was adamant that the United States can not tolerate a precedent where the states can succeed (A House Divided can not stand).
After being elected, many of the southern states promptly succeeded because of opposition to Lincoln’s views. Lincoln took a bold stand, many hated him for it.
Today, Lincoln is widely recognized for being an effective leader. He demonstrated clearly his aptitude during the Lincoln-Douglas debates in which he articulated the case for preventing the spread of slavery on moral grounds. Thanks to Lincoln, the moral issue of slavery was rightfully percieved to trump economics, tradition, and the threat of war.
Obama has made the case that he is optimistic for the future. No Comparison with Lincoln.
RFL — I think you are talking about secession, but would you mind clarifying that?? Please??
Just out of curiosity, what are the Republicans selling this election year besides “Four More Years!”
Really – what do they have?
Any Republic willing to tell us what McCain is going to do to change the disaster of the last seven plus years?
Clark, we have a 70 year old jackass. I am “hoping” for a dandy of a V.P.
Does that answer your question Clark? :)
General Election:
McCain vs. Obama IBD/TIPP Obama 43, McCain 40
Obama +3.0
clark sez: Oh, it’s not that close.
Where is the 81% say this country is going in the wrong direction?
Where is the 75% who are against the war?
“Where is the 81% say this country is going in the wrong direction? Where is the 75% who are against the war?”
You are making assumptions with out foundation, Fleetwood. If this was Debate 101, you would get an “F.” There are millions of Republicans that would vote for McCain, despite their opposition to the War. A plus B does not equal C.
So, Fleet, how many American think the country is headed in the right direction – percentage please.
And, how many support the continued War on Iraq – percentage please.
Chas,
I misspelled that word both times. Thanks for correcting me.
continued War on Iraq
Oh, the defeatist.
Can’t answer can you BDP?
Mary,
Seems to me that life for you is still going pretty well out there on the lake.
How exactly did you let 8 years of Bush effect you so much?
Still building on your home, have an airplane hanger now, live on the lake, have time to garden…
Just what exactly is it that 4 years of McCain would do to your life to make you want to move?
Sol — Please clarify — You say cutting taxes on the middle income esults in a loss of $5 Billion revenue….
But, on the other hand, you and others seem to thionk that tax cuts on the Wealthy create stimulus and growth…
Seems to me that if tax cut at one level loses revenue — then any tax cut at any level loses revenue…
RFL — no problem… its just that I know a few southerners who might think secession, was succeeding!! LOL
Chas,
One more time…. Have you seen what the Bush stimulus package did for the economy?
Nathan, Mary posted that 5 hours ago!! Why do you mention it now?? And — ummmm — do you always keep such close tabs on your neighbors?? LOL
How in the hell would I know, clark?
I know the polls are too close for your stats to be true.
Yeah Fleettwood, you didn’t say Mfing or GD or ahole or some other choice word like Clark. You just can’t debate Lib style to save your sould Fleettie.
Sol, what is the connection between the stimulus(which I havent gotten yet) and tax cuts??
Chas,
I know Mary. I talk with her Husband every now and then. My parents live on the same lake as her.
I have to drive by her home when I go up to feed our horses.
I mean, Sol, if yu cant answer my question, that’s ok… I wont hold it against you, or call you names or anything… I am just curious why tax cuts on the wealthy are supposed to be such a good thing, and are supposed to stimulate so much growth, but the tax cuts proposed on middle income are supposed to LOSE revenue!! Why doesnt the tax cut on the wealthy LOSE revenue, too???
Chas,
Can you not see the connection between Bush mailing you a check (from your tax dollars – and hell mine too) and a tax cut? The only difference is the timing. The rebate checks haven’t done diddly squat for the economy, and Bush’s is $100-200 more than Obama plans.
BTW, Bush couldn’t pay for his either. Borrowed more money…
I swear, it sounds like you all think someone is going to come along and save this country’s behind. This country’s time has come and gone. You can wish and hope for a saviour for the rest of your lives but this empire will follow the path of all empires and turn to dust. And no politician is going to make any difference.
“This country’s time has come and gone.”
Sounds like the Lib anthem!
Oh, it’s all over now, baby blue.
Sol — Why doesnt the tax cut on the wealthy LOSE revenue, too???
Chas when corporations are overtaxed they stop spending money on R&D, expansion, new equipment, personnell and last but not least they raise the prices of their product.
This then cost jobs in all of the industries that provide their building materials, new equipment, as well as resulting in layoffs because fewer people have the income to consume their product.
When a capitalistic society is working right, corporations do well, consume, hire many workers, pay good wages and provide great benefits. This new money then spurs the economy.
When government enters the picture then the money from the corporations slows down, unemployment then results and the increased taxes the government has imposed then is dispensed to the needy but it isn’t new money it is the same old money recycled through the government.
Without new money invested by entrepeneurs a stagnant economy is the result. That is where we are heading.
That doesnt say anything about the wealthy taxpayers, OKOB…. please try to pay attention!! I havent said ONE word about corporate taxes, now have I??
You spin too much, you will get yourself all dizzy!!
And you know, I hope, that there are businesses in that middle income bracket too, if you want to take it that direction …. So my question would still be the same… IF you really want to dicuss it…
Oh yea, if you over tax the middle income folks, then they cant buy the products made by the big corporations, who then wont have the amount of sales to keep their product lines moving, and then they will have less income to be taxed on…
So, I sort of figure it goes both ways… If you lose revenue by cutting taxes on the middle income folks… you are still going to lose revenue by cutting taxes on the wealthy, who pay a LOT more in taxes than do the middle income folks!!
I dont see that you can have it both ways!!
Isn’t it interesting?
Four decades ago, a president stated to us, “ask NOT what your country can do for you”.
And today, we have a demcorat candidate running for election stating,
“What can the government GIVE to you”…….
Chas
Posted June 10, 2008 at 4:23 pm | Permalink
That doesnt say anything about the wealthy taxpayers, OKOB…. please try to pay attention!! I havent said ONE word about corporate taxes, now have I??
You spin too much, you will get yourself all dizzy!!
——————-
Chas try to pay attention and follow logic. The rich already the largest percentage of taxes. They won’t pay anymore. They will move their money offshore like the Kennedys. They will stop being a profitable company. The US tax base needs them not the other way around. You libs who think the rich will just sit still and let you call the shot. Well I will reserve judgement.
So, you’re basically saying that the country needs the rich and wealthy… and the rest of us can go to hell…
chas:
Pleased to be wondering your definition of wealthy/rich?
Chas is an idiot. You are grasping so hard to start a fight on purpose….
Chas is an idiot. You are grasping so hard to start a fight on purpose….
Yeah Chas that is what I am saying if you say so. Must hurt to wake up every morning and realize you are still stupid Chas. Hold onto your dollars because someday you might be the filthy rich.
I still have not received a direct letter from Mr. Chas requesting the assistance of the US Chaplain Corps to threaten Nathan’s military career.
Is it coming snail mail? Or maybe Mr. Chas was mistaken in his posts?
nope no fight… read OKOB’s post… if the wealthy dont get their tax cuts, the whole country is down the tubes… Sorry, TROLLS… YOU LOSE!!! ROFL!!!
chas:
Pleased to be wondering your definition of wealthy/rich??
OKOB = Forrest CHUMP — You arent even reading my posts, so to hell with you and your dancing puppet friends…
And Fleet, you are still the undefeated, reigning champion of BDP!!!
What? Won’t answer the question? It’s a fair one.
“How in the hell would I know, clark?”
You said you did, now put up or shut up.
You’ve gotta be amazed how lowly wage slaves kowtow to corporate pie-in-the-sky dreams and propaganda.
“As long as corporations are okay,” the peons have been brainwashed into believing, “somehow some modicum of prosperity will trickle down to those who actually work to create wealth.”
Democracy isn’t supposed to work that way. Even more importantly, Capitalism doesn’t work that way. Eventually, the people at the top will oppress the workers, the workers won’t be able to afford the products they produce, and there won’t be any market for the capitalists to sell their products and services.
The poster formerly known as “Econ101″ (I think he’s come back, but I’ve had difficulty keeping the new nyms straight) often spewed the first semester of Econ 101; as if he’d learned it all. The investment banking crisis of 2008 is a replay of the commercial banking crises of 1929-1932. The market crash of 1929 was a replay of the financial panics of 1898 and 1876.
Republic Party economic orthodoxy has brought us to the brink of financial Armageddon. I’ll forgive Barack Obama for trying to sell optimism. Frankly, I’m inspired by his optimism.
But I think about an investment banker Bill Moyers interviewed a few weeks ago who said, “Yes, I’m optimistic about the economy. But I fear my optimism is misplaced.”
The absolute last thing America needs is four more years of Republic Party orthodoxy. The first thing America needs is a new way to address the challenges which face us.
The first thing we need is President Barack Obama.
“Killer political instincts”..
Yeah we don’t hear much about that. It’s hushed up I guess.
This guy was apparently quite ruthless in his early political career.
I’m HOPING this whole suck up to the right thing is a rope a dope. Then, once he wins, he will really put the screws to the cons.
But I am not encouraged. Obama has been making some right wing noises here recently.
I think the whole optimism thing is the wrong tac either way. We NEED ads that blame the cons for the high gas prices and other assorted ills. But I guess the 527’s will have to take care of that.
Hmm hadn’t heard about that one CF.
There was another time Obama got his back up. Something about he’d be ready to go at the cons (he said Republicans) if they came after him.
Well, maybe the long primary fight was good for him. I always said it would be.
He BETTER be ready for a fight. What is it kfg calls it? “The right wing Wurlitzer?” Yeah.
They are firing it up and I mean big time on rant radio.
BlueJay,
Ohhhhhh yeah. It’s “Obama the America-hating-Manchurian candidate–Muslim apostate-liberal lover” for days and days and days. Just like the list of lies we saw Boxlicker post here a couple of days back.
Given that the Repukes HATE their candidate (did you hear that Ron Paul is holding a shadow GOP convention), their only card is to go as racist as possible at Obama and hope something sticks. Again, kind of like all the shit we saw Boxlicker throw at the wall the other day.
Here’s the run-down on Obama’s smackdown of Democratic Back-Stabber Joe Lieberman:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/198727.php
Obama’s been pretty effective this week. He’s driving the debate and McCain is counterpunching only belatedly.
My uncle and aunt from Oklahoma stayed here last night so he could make an early morning appointment at the VA. He “explained” to me that Obama isn’t black! When he first said it I responded about being as white as black… So, he went on to explain that he is actually only 13% black. I lost track of his explanation, didn’t ask any questions because I couldn’t risk opening my mouth. He is a good man and 82 years old and…
We all have our crosses to bear.
But I know he listens to all the places and people all the talking points are handed down. So anyone else heard this one??
Thank you for the link. I’ll read that a little later.
Well, Obama WAS the first to take a swing WAY back in one of the early debates. He hit Hillary with that little Wal mart swipe and she threw a roundhouse back.
Like I say, she has been good for him.
BEWARE the fickle media though. IF he is too tough on old John out will come the knives accusing him of bashing on an old war hero.
Heh, the con convention should be….interesting. How will they keep out all the Paul supporters? Will there be a call from the floor for a new nominee?
Linda… Sounds like some group out there who now wants to make Obama look like a lying pretender to being black… when they try to paint him as nearly white — You might recall that 3/5 census thing from way back in the civil war era, when trying to figure out census numbers for the House of Reps… Some religious groups have a thing they call the two seed theory for how we have whites and non-whites in the world… and how the one seed is really seed of “satan” and one the seed of “adam” it is just basically mathematical horse hockey RACISM no matter how you cut it, and regardless of how old your uncle is!! Too bad that kind of crap is still with us even in 2008!!
But, we even see bits and pieces of it on the Blog — as Monkey pointed out above…
Linda — I heard a rant earlier today on Limbaugh’s show about how the reichwingers are going to start bitching about how it isnt American to put up a candidate who hasnt ever been in the military to be the commander in chief — and then I heard a radio show Caller last nite who called in claiming to be a Marine officer, who said he and 100’s of Marines would NOT obey commands from a Black man, elected President who had never served in the military… I sense we are headed to a pretty Racist show down before November… And that just really tears me up!! And if you dont think it can happen, just watch the threads of this Blog…. ok?? :-(
“called in claiming to be a Marine officer, who said he and 100’s of Marines would NOT obey commands from a Black man, elected President who had never served in the military”
If that is the case, they better start building larger stockades, because failure to follow lawful orders will get a Marine or any other service person a real nice sentence, followed by a dishonorable discharge.
Sucks to be them.
I know, Chas. But I still had to bite my tongue. He really is a good man. He is my uncle, my elder, he deserves my respect in many many ways. I can’t trust myself to be kind if I begin addressing such ignorance.
At another time he spouted off about bush inheriting whatever it was from Clinton. Again, I didn’t listen well enough to hear the details. Gotta guard against being disrespectful — my Mother might still turn me over her knee! Anyway, when he finished I did look him in the eye and say quietly, “Anything bush inherited from Clinton he made worse; anything he inherited he didn’t make better.” He didn’t argue or even dispute what I said. Funny thing, over my uncle’s shoulder my aunt was shaking her head up and down in “YES!” But she too kept her mouth shut. She is a generation older than me and I’m older than dirt. I hope today’s younger women can be open and honest and still maintain dignity and decorum. We older ones aren’t brave enough or smart enough or maybe we’re just too indoctrinated into “proper” behavior (whatever THAT is!).
There are so many prejudices, so much misinformation. Senator Clinton said last Saturday in her excellent speech there is no acceptable prejudice. She is so right! I hope I live long enough to see that world.
I’d settle for tolerance and that people would realize they don’t need to embrace a difference to accept and respect it as someone’s rightful choice. And quit being afraid that differences might be contagious or rub off…
I am a pollyanna, huh?
So Phillip can say “wussy” but we can’t say “xussy”?
Go figure.
CF2K regurgitates,
“their only card is to go as racist as possible at Obama and hope something sticks. Again, kind of like all the shit we saw Boxlicker throw at the wall the other day.
Ha….it must have stuck! Thanks glad to know it did.
Clark says:
“If that is the case, they better start building larger stockades, because failure to follow lawful orders will get a Marine or any other service person a real nice sentence, followed by a dishonorable discharge.”
I quite agree with you… but still, if this attitude is very widespread, things could get very volatile before November…
What does Barack HUSSEIN Obama stand for besides that one word he keeps uttering? I’m sick and tired of hearing the word CHANGE. Does he stand for something else? Oh yeah, I know what Barack HUSSEIN Obama stands for: ridiculously high taxes, unlimited abortion, cut and run in Iraq, cutting off support for Israel, gay marriage, socialized medicine, and taxes on oil companies which will push gas to $6 a gallon by this time next year. Yeah, you love Barack HUSSEIN Obama so much, go ahead and vote for this left-wing demagogue. You have a choice…vote for McCain and keep hope, or push the nuclear button for Barack HUSSEIN Obama and see how far this country falls on its face. Osama bin Laden and his minions want you to. The ghost of Saddam Hussein wants you to. Kim Jong-Il wants you to. Hamas wants you to. Every America-hating Iranian wants you to. The Ohio carpetbagger masquerading as Kansas’ governor wants you to.
Hey, you have absolutely NOTHING to worry about, ICTisInferior! Senator Obama will not be the only name on the ballot and you get to choose who you vote for. Calm down. No one will force you to vote for the winner.
“Talking Points Memo (or TPM) is a liberal political blog created and run by Josh Marshall.”
Please tell me how to think. Please help me.
“fleettwood” –
What part of “This is not an argumentative piece, intended to persuade. It’s just why this one particular writer within this community supports Barack Obama for President, and has since 2006,” did you not understand?
I have no appetite for getting in a pissing match tonite.
Monkeyhawk, Barack HUSSEIN Obama has already said only judges who favor unlimited abortion will be nominated to federal judgeships. Wow, he really wants a judiciary that looks like America, considering that only half the electorate AT MOST supports the pro-murder position.
Your talking points post is a joke. Barack HUSSEIN Obama is not a consensus builder. He is a divider who will ruthlessly punish anyone who opposes him. Barack HUSSEIN Obama is an empty suit which stands for nothing until he is elected, and then he will reveal his radically liberal agenda which would make Lenin proud.
“For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”
Jesus Christ = Socialist!
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