On Father’s Day, Barack Obama gave a tough sermon on fatherhood at Chicago’s Apostolic Church of God, one aimed especially at African American families, which have been hit hard by the effects of absentee dads. Obama’s message: Too many African-American households are missing male parents, who “have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.â€
Obama noted that his father had left when he was 2 years old, but he’d been lucky to have “two wonderful grandparents from Kansas who poured everything they had into helping my mother raise my sister and me — who worked with her to teach us about love and respect and the obligations we have to one another.â€
194 Comments
Last I recall Obama called his white grandmother a racist to offset his relationship with a real racist, J. Wright. Now they are wonderful?
I also notice that he left out that the family that did not abandon him was the pale side of the family.
So what do we propose? I want to hear some real ideas on how to get men to step up. You can force them to pay child support all you want and they don’t have to be married in order to still be a good father.
And what about the men (and a few women too) who should be kept away from their kids?
Is this election year pandering or is Obama simply making a huge understatement when he stated:
“More police on the street and job training programs are essential for a safe and sound society, but we also need families to raise our children.”
I am afraid that Michelle & Barak are just another cynical power attorney married couple (like Bill & Hillary) promoting big government programs to replace the family, the extended family and the church. Barak goes on to state that:
“Even though we didn’t have a lot of money, scholarships gave me the opportunity to go to some of the best schools in the country. A lot of kids don’t get these chances today”
I hope that Barak & Michelle understand that they were the “small minority with in a minority of Americans” lucky to win the affirmative action lottery or fortunae to have middle class white grandparents from Kansas. An Obama presidency may make Americans feel less guilty about our ugly history of class warfare (known as racism) and may encourage more inter-racial marriages, but I doubt thatit will it do anything to lower the divorce rate of black and white couples or the pregnancy rate of black, white Hispanic teenaged girls. Only the churches, synagogues & mosques can achieve this by promoting individual responsibility rather than nanny government programs.
My fear is that Barak & Michelle will represent the parasitic class of attorneys, guardian ad litems, state social workers, mental health professionals and foster parents that are paid by the federal & state government to destroy the ability of the family, the extended family and the churches to help raise children from poor single parents. These child advocates never support reforms to demand accountability & transparency from their associated agencies or courts. All we ever hear is hard they work and how underfunded they are. The truth is that Nola Foulston’s juvenile child in care of need prosecutors pressure SRS social workers to file false affidavits with false statements to steal children away from good parents to feed children to a evil hungry beast known as the child protective industry which employs thousands of child advocates in Kansas.
If Obama and other liberals want to fund more mandates for health insurance for poor kids and their parents, they need to demand transparency accountability in the state & federal social welfare programs.
Bill McKean kiakahahaha@yahoo.com 293-6079
Proposals to fix this mess? I doubt that there are any fair ways to cause parents to always step up to the plate to parent. And as Political_mama points out, sometimes it is better if some people don’t. Here are some reforms I think would help:
1. Use common sense with child support payments.
a. No parent should be expected to pay more (or less) than 50% of the cost.
b. Don’t increase that cost just because a parent is affluent.
c. The parent receiving child support should be required to prove that the money was spend on the child.
d. It does not cost twice as much to raise two kids in comparison to one child.
2. Don’t assume that one parent is better based on a ‘traditional value’. (i.e. Mothers should not be assumed to be a better care-giver.)
In the end you cannot force people to be parents. If they don’t want to do it they won’t and their children will continue to suffer.
I agree with Bill Mcean that no parent should have to pay more than 50% of his opr her salary.It makes no sense to take all of one parents money,so that he or she can not live and end up on the street.Many of the parents do not even try to work even with only one child.End up on welfare and then the one paying child support has to pay back the state plus help the parent who is caring for the child.This is non sensical.Every parent needs to work.Their are many ways they can get day care or family members to help them so they can work.They are just to lazy and irresponsible.
Why are Kansans so backwards? Education must not have been a priority obviously. Color is not everything; it’s the substance of the individual. McCain is full of it, just like Bush. I realize Obama doesn’t have a chance with most Kansas religious fanatics but a few of us will vote for a change. A change from hate.
Oh yeah, vote for the guy who let donnie mccloset preach at a fundraiser, and headline the event.
THAT will surely reduce the hate…
A change from hate would truly be great.
A change from hate toward Bush would be great.
A change from hating McCain would be great.
A change from hate would truly be great.
“Only the churches, synagogues & mosques can achieve this by promoting individual responsibility rather than nanny government programs.”
Disagree – institutional religion seems to me to promote responsibility to some other being, not the individual.
1) Base child support on the needs of the child, not the parents’ income.
2) Enforce parenting time just as hard as you enforce payments. What is more important? The child’s relationship with the non-custodial parent, or the paycheck going to the custodial parent?
3) If at all possible, 50-50 split on time spent with the child.
They are just to lazy and irresponsible.
My ex ‘works’ 12 hours per week. She lives off my child support and that of another fool. She just raised my support. Go figure.
When a father does not pay, it causes a hardship on the mother, and maybe the child. When the mother denies visitation, it is devastating to the child and the father. Women can be massively vindictive. It seems they care more about causing the father pain than the welfare of the child.
Point being, it goes both ways. Some people are just truly a$$holes.
Sol – AMEN! You are 100% correct!
Proudman – also agreed.
I fully agree with Ben, Sol and Proudman. There is no way to solve a social problem in a political way. It almost always breeds abuse and fraud.
This is why I consistently urge people to become mentors.
Uh no. The custodial parent sacrifices more than just money, they sacrifice their time and energy and that also usually prevents them from getting better jobs. So while you’re out working and getting up in your company, you don’t get to just keep that. You have a responsibility that your child would have the same kind of lifestyle as if he was living iwth you. You don’t get a free sitter and then expect her to give up her future for it.NO.
Figures a bunch of pompous asses would be sitting here complaining about all that they’re forced to do for their children. BOO WAAH.
Sol, if a mandatory parenting time had been allowed for my daughter, I’d had gone to jail to keep her from him. And my instincts were correct…he’s now doing 40 years for raping his other 8 year old daughter.
I’m sure he used all the excuses under the sun…do you know what finally worked to keep him away from us? I told him he’d never ever have to pay child support. So as long as he was scott free and clear from paying, he never came around.
I realize that my situation might be unique, but it’s not unique in that there are some really crappy dads out there. And usually its the mom stepping up instead. When my son was doing so poorly..who gave up their job? I did. When I waas a single parent with my daughter, who worked 3 jobs? I did. And we still struggled.
So I really don’t want to hear about how men complain that they have to give more than is REQUIRED to live on. You might think poverty is just fine for your kid while you drive the sports car, but I think that’s crap.
I dunno.
Seems like this — as just about every issue regarding parenthood — is extremely difficult to codify.
“The needs of the child?” — What does that mean? 1400 calories a day, a change of underwear, and a bed to sleep in? What more does a kid “need?”
George WMD Bush happened to pick the right parents that got him into prep school, Yale, the National Guard (and out of it, too). John Sidney McCain the Third (for Shrub’s 3rd term) happened to pick four-star Admirals for father and grandfather, eked through Annapolis near the bottom of his class and crashed five aircraft as a reckless fighter pilot.
Would it be fair to the kids that McBush left four kids and a crippled wife for a hot young beer heiress and simply be expected to fund what Carol McCain “needed” to feed and clothe and shelter his abandoned first family?
Newt Gingrich once advocated that all dependent children of divorcing parents be shuttled off to orphanages. That’s the CONservative answer.
P-mama – IF the money were going to the kids would be one thing. But there are too many cases where the father loves them and wants them but the mother sees a free ride on his back – and not for the kids. And then, to make matters worse, she gets between dad and the children
I guess the point I’m trying to make is..you can’t force good parenting on anyone. My solution is that we can try to help those who really do wish to be good parents and try to mediate a go-between.
For those where it may be dangerous to put the father or mother visitation with the child…allow them to keep away, or mandate the parent be kept away.
The problem was..when I was going through this…although he had a history of horrible criminal behavior and drugs, he had done nothing to prove he was an unfit father. The courts would had ruled against me for a restraining order and my daughter would be dealing with lifelong effects of being sent with her father.
P_Mom.
1) Child support is not to support the custodial parent. It is to support the child.
2) If your ex had issues, you should have pursued them legally. What you did was illegal and you should have been punished for it. You are lucky he did not pursue action against you.
3) Not all custodial parents sacrifice anything. Some of them are turds.
4) Some non-custodial parents would be glad to ‘sacrifice’ their time. Some of us wouldn’t even see it as a sacrifice but a privilege. Sorry to hear your children are such a burden for you.
5) <i your child would have the same kind of lifestyle as if he was living iwth you. That sounds all warm and fuzzy, but then you penalize the non custodial parent for success. While you reward the non custodial parent for doing as little as possible. See my last post. If you follow the pattern you advocate, you are not benefiting the child, but the custodial parent. It is child support, NOT alimony.
6) Figures that a “woman’s right’s before a child’s life’ ass would be boo-hooing about ‘having to raise her kids’.
realize that my situation might be unique, but it’s not unique in that there are some really crappy moms out there. And usually its[sic] the dad stepping up instead.
So I really don’t want to hear about how men complain that they have to give more than is REQUIRED to live on.
Again, child support is not to support the custodial parent, but the child.
You might think poverty is just fine for your kid while you drive the sports car, but I think that’s crap.
Again, child support is not to support the custodial parent, but the child.
The problem I see is that the ’system’ ASSUMES the mother is the better parent. Tell that to this 6-week-old:
http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/story/437488.html
Mom to be tried on child abandonment charge
MY point is that mothers can be just as bad as your ‘ex’.
she gets between dad and the children
BINGO
The courts have all kinds of manpower to track down money, but when the custodial parent denies visitation? Yeah, not so much.
So what is worse? They custodial parent will get the money at some point. Through tax returns, garnished wages, whatever. There are assistance programs if the mother can not get the money.
How do you replace time? How do you fix the damage caused by a bitter vindictive custodial parent?
I hope you will notice I use custodial/non custodial instead of mother and father. As I stated before, this goes both ways.
Agreed Sol. My paretn were divorced and my father was pretty much absent. On that score I am in sympathy with P-mama. HOWEVER – I have also seen far too much of the reverse. And the bigotry of the Courts is a MAJOR problem.
I see far too many articles such as the above where it is the mother or her new boyfriend who abuses or kills the child. And we then read that Dad had tried to intervene but the bigoted courts had stopped him.
And then you have men like my biological father. He was a mean drunk, and i have 6 half brothers and sisters by many different wives.
We were always ‘daddy’s girls’ until he started beating up mom. Then one day after they were divorced, we went on a family camping trip to Grand Lake….it was great fun during the day. He got drunk at night, and I was sleeping with my sister on the top bunk. I jumped down on him, he swung around…and i still don’t know how I got back up on that bunk so fast, but i managed to right before he reached his arm in and grabbed my clothes at my gut.
I remember many horrible fights, nights he held my mom at gunpoint between my ages of 3 and 7. They divorced when I was 5. And to this day he denies that any of that ever happened. Swears that my mom put that in my head. I SAW it with my own eyes,it’s not some stupid repressed memory.
He was either in a blackout and truly doesn’t remember or he’s just trying to convince me that it never happened.
Anyway, he lived off his rich father for years. Mom was never able to get child support till years later. There are ways around paying. He had threatened to take us from mom that we had a hidden phone and had to take special precautions at school in case he found us and came to take us.
and try to mediate a go-between.
It’s called Friend Of the Court. A bunch of weasely a$$holes that couldn’t make it in the real world, so they got cushy government jobs. They are incompetent hacks.
Ben,
My Dad spent most of his times out of the country. Had some great summers with him when he was state-side, but still.
I don’t want my kid to grow up like that. My ex is a bitter spiteful bitch. She would rather mess with my son’s head and deny me access than to ‘let me have my way’. Which is of course the court ordered time. No more, no less.
Then the court doesn’t even back up its own ruling. Unless of course, it comes to money.
You’re full of it Sol. I was trying to follow along till you said I should have been prosecuted. FU, if you think that, I OBVIOUSLY did the right thing. And so did my mom.
what I will take responsibility for is getting pregnant in the first place with such a loser!
Child support assists the custodial parent to provide a HOME LIFE for that child. That means if the mother has to take a day off of work to go to the doctor, that’s something you’re paying for.
It is ridiculous to make a listof what is being paid for because it all goes to the same place eventually. Say I write down I paid rent with the child support….well….that 400 bucks I get is just going to turn around and go to food, or other bills…I mean really it all goes into the household anyway.
P_Mom,
Your stories do not fall on deaf ears. Thank you for sharing them. My point is that you have seen a lot of –problems- for lack of a better word, coming from the masculine side. I have seen more from the feminine side. Until the courts can become unbiased, we will never come to ‘what is best for the child’.
There are a$$holes of both genders that look out for themselves more than their children. Attacking only one gender is short sighted.
Why is Obama saying this is a Black issue?
Is Obama obsessed with talkin about racial issues that divide America?
I thought he was for the U-NITED States of Amerika?
Obama – Will Divide America like he divided the DemoRat party.
Barack sounding more and more like a Republican?
WHAT a surprise.
Told ya.
p-mama – like you, I have seen my share of horrible dads. However, that does not justify the Courts’ bigotry against ALL males.
Absolutely incorrect. If you had to take the day off for yourself, should the non-custodial parent pay for that too? The money is for the child. And why should the non-custodial parent pay for your entire day off? Are you not responsible for anything. Oh, wait…
what I will take responsibility for is getting pregnant in the first place
Apparently not.
I mean really it all goes into the household anyway.
If you make a list of what the child consumes, it is not a exercise in futility, but an exercise in truth.
You have to provide a roof for the child. Add that in right? Nix. I have to provide a roof too for visitation. Does your roof cost more than mine? Tough. I have to provide the same as you. I must have chosen what I could afford.
You have to provide transportation for the child right? Write off the car payment right? Wrong. How much is that vehicle used for the child?
You have to buy groceries? How much does the child consume as opposed to you?
You want alimony P_Mom. Another system abuser.
Not at all true Sol. I have to have a two bedroom house, if you get visitation, you can get by with a one bedroom. Getting the kids to and from everywhere DOES require more than just nothing. I’d say 90% of the vehicle usage goes to the kids…and food…and electricity.
I HAVE said that it should be fair, but don’t just say you can buy school clothes and a rent check once a year and that’s plenty. SUre its not hard raising a kid if all you have to do is PAY for them. You act as if that’s all parents do.
I can tell right now why.
BlueJay – maybe you think Obama sounds like a Republican; I think he sounds like a DAD – one who remembers HIS dad not being there for him.
Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. Courses in family interactions should start early in school and be required by all-male and female. Even twelve years is not enough for some who come from disfunctioanal families but may make them curious enough to seek out other avenues to continue to live in peaceful productive environments.
I do not believe that either Obama or his wife are responsible parents. They not only had thier girls baptised by a fanatic who hates all white people but allowed them to sit through these hate america sermons almost all of thier lives. this to me borders on child abuse and certainly does not qualify Obama to preach to others about family relations. Michelle unless she already had such feelings about america certainly has the same feelings now. What do thier daughters believe ?
Obama is echoing Bill Cosby’s appeal, a legitimate one. Since it is directed at a particular group that I am not a member of, I have no standing to comment.
I will say though that he is very right. Kids desperately need a good father. And if Obama is sounding like a Republican on this issue, good for Republicans.
Ben
The definition of “family” in America is changing.
Obama should know that. He has lived it.
Calls for a return to a past that people simply will not live anymore is no solution. It is a cop out.
Is it the first of many from Obama?
You cannot force a man to be a father anymore than I could force my son’s mother to be a mother.
You cannot solve a problem by blaming the problem.
Solutions are what we expect from leaders.
Solutions begin where we are. Not where we wish we could be.
Realistically, there are horror stories on both sides of the equations and abuses by both parental concerns.
I received custody of my son when he just turned two. His mother never paid a nickel in child support, never sent a birthday or Christmas present. In 16 years, she bought him exactly one pair of (cheap) shoes.
To compound matters, the one summer that she did have him for visitation, she failed to return him home. I had to drive to NW Montana from Kansas to retrieve him. After that, he didn’t see her for another six years.
The point is that after divorces or breakups, parents need to be parents first and exes last. That is hard to do, but if ‘ya brought the kid into the world, you are RESPONSIBLE.
By the way, my son is now twenty one, a fine young man, a hard worker and smarter than his old man could ever have hoped to be.
See how Obama is U-Niting everybody?
Bliss……..
Black kids need a father more then White kids or Hispanic kids or Asian kids?
Obama’s putting his focus EXACTLY where Rev Wright told him to – on Black America only.
Parent teacher conferences
After school activities
Homework
Studying for tests
Nightmares
Fights with friends…
You act like you corner the market on parenting ‘misery’ P_mom. Problem is I wish I could be the one there for my son every time one of the above listed and myriad not listed events happens in my son’s life.
I love my son more than anything else in the world. His $hithole ‘mother’ lovers herself and my money more than anything else. Been proven more than once.
You take the most precious and most important job on earth and make it sound like utter misery. I’d trade my left arm for that ‘misery’ with my son.
Since you have absolutely no respect for a child’s life, I can see why you feel that way.
Obama says something that a Republican might say. And Democrats and Republicans are both disgusted. Typical.
Calls for a return to a past that people simply will not live anymore is no solution. It is a cop out.
Has your hatred so skewed you JR that you think that non-custodial parents should neither pay nor be involved in their children’s lives?
Get help. Get your son help.
VET – the funny thing is to look at which of us are backing him.
LT,
I applaud what Obama said. Did not need to be race specific and I would give him a standing ovation had he scorned mothers in the same breath.
Neither race nor gender is spared in this problem. The biggest losers are the children. Who’s looking out for them? Sure isn’t the court system.
I have a salient question for all the ardent anti-abortion activists. Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to solve the following conundrum (eschewing the bible verses if you please – not all of us salivate to to ‘em….).
Yes, a father SHOULD be responsible. He SHOULD take an equal role in parenting (including supporting his wife and/or the mother of his child). He SHOULD communicate with his progeny. There SHOULD be higher moral principles to which we commit ourselves, especially in the arena of human sexuality.
However, answer me this: How do you MAKE a man FEEL – if he does not? How do you FORCE a man, even a morally upright, hardworking, faithful man – FEEL anything for someone else? How do you MAKE him communicate – or even give a day-um? Don’t dismiss me as a “radical feminist” (that’s a laugh). Instead, here me out. I know from whence I speak.
Twenty years ago this summer, I traveled to my hometown to meet the man my mother would eventually marry. After enduring a wretched marriage to my father marked by alcoholism (his), neurasthenia (both his and hers), communicative debilities (both his and hers) and morbid atrophy, my mother had fallen in love 15 years after my father died. And I was thrilled. Her happiness was paramount; I would have been euphoric with anyone she had chosen.
On that hot August day two decades ago, I was to meet my eventual stepfather for the first time. We had never met; therefore there had been no discordance between the two of us. As he opened the door, we shook hands. With neither hysteria or indifference, I expressed my happiness at meeting him. After a quick handshake, he turned his back to me, stood in silence for a few seconds, and muttered audibly, “Whew! We’re both so happy we’ve got all our kids out of the house!”
I thought nothing of it at the time. I had grown up in a home in which no one communicated with any skill whatsoever. My siblings’ means of communicating involved beating me up – both physically and emotionally. Other than that, the void was palpable.
My Mother confessed to me, many years later, that her own father never talked to her. Not one conversation occurred between them. Therefore, she admittedly didn’t discern these deficits in her subsequent remarriage. Nor did I.
For a long, long time. But I do now.
When someone has a critical life event, a tragedy that is met with abject indifference (and outright hostility) by one’s immediate family, it is catastrophic. I will not elaborate here; suffice it to say, I don’t expect anti-choice activists to take responsibility for a familial miasma like this.
But they do not have all the answers, either.
I cannot put it any clearer: A total inability to communicate – or to confer any concern whatsoever – in the midst of tragedy (or tragedies) is quite, quite appalling.
When traveling home for a 2-day visit recently, these deficits were laid bare even more unambiguously.
I remain convinced that those who cannot communicate – or FEEL anything for their children – should not have children. A child’s life normally lasts far longer than an orgasm.\\
As Obama rightly put it, “Any fool can make a baby. Raising a child takes far more effort.”
Couldn’t put it better myself.
Wow. And yet…
Some of the bible thumpers think gay marriage will be the downfall of the American family?
heheheheheheh!
Obama said mothers were PUNISHED by unwanted children.
Obama, children are Punishment?
Pmom agrees.
“Some of the bible thumpers think gay marriage will be the downfall of the American family?”
Dem pesky gays, wanting to be equal and all that.
True Ben.
We have Outlander who supports what he said, but just has to make sure the Republicans get the credit for the idea.
We have BlueJay who doesn’t think Obama is giving the liberals enough credit.
I think Obama put it best when he spoke of this country’s political drama and the politics of validation.
SolDevVB
Posted June 17, 2008 at 11:33 am | Permalink
LT,
I applaud what Obama said. Did not need to be race specific
—————————————————-
Agree with you Sol, BUT Obama DID make these comments RACE specific.
What does that say about Obama?
Racist.
ME get help solie?
I’ve never been a non custodial parent. So I can neither sympathize nor ignore how OBVIOUSLY filled with bitterness and anger YOU are.
Please do not make assumptions about me and I’ll moderate mine as to you.
You are again trying to take your own personal beefs and raise them to the level of a national concern.
You and your wife could not live together. But a child was involved.
What you and your ex should have settled the matter with a duel?
Of course not. A judge had to become involved. That judge decided that the child’s mother was the better parent. You can hate it. You can think it’s wrong.
But it is what it is. You need a nice long dose of getting over it.
I think Obama is making some good points. I’m glad he’s trying to take a stand. Yes, it does remind me of Bill Cosby’s recent statements.
Obama seems more concerned about America’s youth than McCain is. McCain just wants to keep sending American children to the middle east to get blown and further make the middle east hate the USA.
I think Obama is making some good points. I’m glad he’s trying to take a stand. Yes, it does remind me of Bill Cosby’s recent statements.
Obama seems more concerned about America’s youth than McCain is. McCain just wants to keep sending American children to the middle east to get blown and further make the middle east hate the USA.
I think Obama is making some good points. I’m glad he’s trying to take a stand. Yes, it does remind me of Bill Cosby’s recent statements.
Obama seems more concerned about America’s youth than McCain is. McCain just wants to keep sending American children to the middle east to get blown up and further make the middle east hate the USA.
Not sure I would call him a racist. I look at his audience and the disproportionate number of Black families in which one parent is absent.
And I admit now and freely, I have neither heard nor read the entire sermon. Just the tid bits thrown out here and there.
Sol,
You think JR could “get over it” if HE had a job and had to pay child support and alimony?
No point in arguing with a deadbeat. Too bad for his kid though, but I wouldn’t want the State to intervene unless the kid was in danger.
I wonder if Osama Obama is going to preach the message of Dr. Bill Cosby now? Not that it’s a bad message, as Bill Cosby is correct on his assertions for the most part that the Black families have deteoriated and broken up from lack of male leadership.
Front the content of this thread, one can already see the wide variety of opinion.
I agree that not all men are bad and that not all women are good.
However, I do have eyes and the women do most all of the child rearing and caring.
A solution? Men need to stay in church in order to develop their skills of manhood, patience, forgiveness and maturity.
I know duh Dems don’t like that answer, but church going males that are husbands and fathers tend to offer more in the way of male leadership and are not usually absent in their roles as fathers.
I know my church offers counseling and has several courses and retreats for married couples and those who want to marry.
Can’t wait to hear what increases in Social Welfare spending Obama will propose to “Solve” the fatherless children problem.
Money is the solution to everything you know. The Government isn’t spending enough money already.
agreed sol. He didn’t have to be race specific. A bit of a misstep. Now people like Max can pervert the discussion with his racism crap.
Taking off the afternoon for my birthday. Enjoy the day everyone.
Hey, Dad’s don’t have to support their own kids anymore.
That’s what the Government is for.
I do not understand how someone can have the view that abortion is just a choice and then go on to say that fathers should be responsible for children. If a woman ‘decides’ to let some clump of cells grow inside her or can decide to have said clump removed at any time then why can’t a man also opt-out?
As one of those ardent anti-abortion types I’ve never seen a reasonable argument that justifies this line of thinking.
I’ll get to you needing help in just a second.
I need to ‘get over it’. Hmmm K. You think that I should get over the court’s not enforcing the court’s decision. I thought that you thought that the government carried you cradle to grave. But when the court doesn’t enforce their own rulings, I should just get over it. Mmmm K.
Now if the above wasn’t enough evidence that you need help J R, please see below.
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-613/#comment-368255
Let government take the gold and make the rules.
_____________________________________________
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-613/#comment-368109
“Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”
_____________________________________________
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-613/#comment-368123
The minute a person is forced to sustain their survival and sustenance by punching a clock, pushing a broom, or answering a phone FOR someone else?
That person is no longer free.
_____________________________________________
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-616/#comment-369884
What he is saying is that he is on welfare and he wants to keep that pie for his own self.
_____________________________________________
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-616/#comment-369525
My son was about 8 I guess.
Then, I told my son, your friends have to do whatever you say. If they please you, give them a penny.
My son VERY quickly turned into a pint sized dictator
He had them tying and untying his shoes, kissing his foot, doing dances, standing on their heads, calling each other names and hitting each other!
Let me show you how a Democrat does things. I collected up ALL the change
_____________________________________________
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-616/#comment-369588
And don’t talk to me about messing with kids heads.
_____________________________________________
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-616/#comment-369820
Obama says he wants to work with you.
I hope he works you over.
_____________________________________________
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-616/#comment-369807
Know what makes the BlueJay smile?
You cons are dying out.
“MY” racism crap?
Obama raised the fatherless black kid issue.
If McCain had said the same thing, there would be heck to pay.
Happy B-Day LT. Have a good one.
What would have happened had McCain said this?
SENATOR’S SERMON
McCain Discusses Duties of Fatherhood
Calling himself “an imperfect father,” Sen. John McCain spoke of the need for more African American men to live up to their responsibilities in a Father’s Day sermon yesterday.
McCain said that too many black fathers are “missing from too many lives and too many homes,” adding that these men “have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”
More police on the street and job training programs are essential for a safe and sound society, McCain said, “but we also need families to raise our children.”
“I say this knowing that I have been an imperfect father — knowing that I have made mistakes and will continue to make more, wishing that I could be home for my girls and my wife more than I am right now,” he said. “I say this, knowing all of these things, because even as we are imperfect, even as we face difficult circumstances, there are still certain lessons we must strive to live and learn as fathers — whether we are black or white, rich or poor, from the South Side or the wealthiest suburb.”
McCain said he was fortunate to have his grandparents aid his mother in his upbringing.
“Even though my father left us when I was 2 years old, and I only knew him from the letters he wrote and the stories that my family told, I was luckier than most. I grew up in Hawaii, and had two wonderful grandparents from Kansas who poured everything they had into helping my mother raise my sister and me — who worked with her to teach us about love and respect and the obligations we have to one another,” he told the audience. “I screwed up more often than I should’ve, but I got plenty of second chances. And even though we didn’t have a lot of money, scholarships gave me the opportunity to go to some of the best schools in the country. A lot of kids don’t get these chances today. There is no margin for error in their lives.”
You are one of those personal responsibility guys right solie?
At the most fundamental job a man has. That of being a husband and father, you did not succeed. You could not work it out between you and your son’s mother.
It took a village. You took it to the village. Or, perhaps she did.
You can dislike the decision. You don’t get to blame the village.
And if venting your deep and personal rage on me and the village makes ya feel a little better?
Whatever gets you through the day…
Max – in case you didn’t notice it Obama was speaking to a largely black audience and also referring to himself. If you think that makes Bill Cosby a racist then that is your right. But you are wrong. I have known many racists in my life and Bill Cosby is not one of them.
Nice distraction JR, but Obama’s words cannot be erased.
We got a black preacher Candidate for President now.
G – D America!
Ok bth.
Obama was speaking in a black segregated church that doesn’t let white people in.
That makes his comments ok.
He’s dead right, whether black parents or white. But while government is in part responsible for creating this circumstance, I’m not sure what government can do to fix it.
You can’t legislate personal responsibility.
Hmmm.
Barack Obama was speaking in front of a predominately African American audience, on Father’s Day, as a devoted father who both grew up with an absentee father and who is married to his first wife and devoted to his daughters.
If “MaxGrobnik” wants Obama to focus a sermon on obese cranky coots, perhaps he should invite Obama to speak at his church. (Or help him chase kids away for playing on his lawn.)
I just noticed that the Eagle ran a letter by Senator Brownback on basically the same subject.
Not even an honorable mention Randy?
http://www.kansas.com/205/story/435140.html
BlueJay,
Which part of this do you not understand?
1) The court made a ruling – I get specific visitation.
2) She is not following the court order
3) The court is not enforcing its own order
Where are you getting this village crap?
I failed as a husband? Tell that to her three psychotropic drugs she is supposed to take but feels she is above. Know of what you speak JR.
Venting my deep personal rage? Have you freakin read the crap you write? I posted it for you, conveniently with links.
BlueJay, you are quite completely insane.
“Obama was speaking in a black segregated church that doesn’t let white people in.”
Prove that statement Max. I call BS.
“I do not understand how someone can have the view that abortion is just a choice and then go on to say that fathers should be responsible for children”
It’s called inventing a demented rationale for ignoring traditional moral values (its a women’s choice) and then when society hits the fan start begging people to act as if they have moral values.
Can you say “backlash”?
It’s here. It’s going to get worse. And while advocates for gay marriage are urging folks NOT to file suit…
…the american taliban? Not so much.
Dinosaurs waited for better weather. Wingnuts? They will take their chances with those eeevvvvil act-ee-vist judges.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080617/ts_csm/achurchgay
Hey, war violates my spiritual beliefs. Why do I have to pay taxes for war? Can I be an objector too?
Big eye roll…
Oh, my –
Check out this hot-selling campaign button that was available last weekend at the Texas Republic Party convention:
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/06/stick-a-pin-in-it.html
Not at all surprising MH.
Hoo Boy! The rationalizations are flying thick today!
There are two very good ways to avoid having to pay child support; 1.Don’t get married, take a vow of celibacy and keep it! 2.Find the woman of your dreams, make sure she’s the woman of your dreams. get married and have a beautiful family and work your ass off to be good to them. That means a lot more than providing money. Remember that your wife is the woman of your dreams and treat her that way, even when she’s having a rough time. Remember that she’s the woman of your dreams and don’t screw around on her. Don’t even think about it! Don’t divorce her and don’t give her a reason to divorce you. Remember that having a family was your idea too, even when you’re up all night with a sick kid, or when your kid needs braces that cost several thousand dollars. Learn to cook and clean and change diapers and take kids to soccer practice. Your wife doesn’t have it easy either and could stand a break every now and then. Believe me, having a happy wife pays off in so many ways.
Too many of you got married way too young, in the heat of… whatever heat you were in. That is not a good reason for getting married. If you must sleep around before marriage, get a big box of condoms and make sure to use them every goddamn time.
Getting her pregnant is not a good reason for marriage; that’s why child support was invented, that’s why abortion was invented. Just because it’s your DNA is no reason to have a child before you’re ready to support it, nurture it and pay for it’s college education. And some of you will never be ready. Resign yourself to it and join a monastery!
“If “MaxGrobnik” wants Obama to focus a sermon on obese cranky coots, perhaps he should invite Obama to speak at his church. (Or help him chase kids away for playing on his lawn.)” Monkey
No, I don’t think our next President should be Preaching anything.
Since when are you DemoCrats concerned about moral values? Now all of a sudden you want a President who tells us all what to do in our private lives.
First Obama preaches to Black Fathers, will White Gays be next? Perhaps Hispanic non-church goers will be Preached to after that.
ProudMan
Posted June 17, 2008 at 12:15 pm | Permalink
I just noticed that the Eagle ran a letter by Senator Brownback on basically the same subject.
Not even an honorable mention Randy?
http://www.kansas.com/205/story/435140.html
————————————————–
And Brownback’s comments didn’t single out and focus on just Black Fathers.
Obama plays the race card though.
Maxi,
“Since when are you DemoCrats concerned about moral values?”
Since the last eight years of a president(?) who thinks nothing of lying to us about national security or sending thousands of our children to their deaths to execute his personal vendetta and enrich his friends!
No Jed, you Dems care about Moral values when it’s convenient to support your view, and when it’s election time.
bth
Posted June 17, 2008 at 12:26 pm | Permalink
“Obama was speaking in a black segregated church that doesn’t let white people in.”
Prove that statement Max. I call BS.
—————————————————-
It was from YOUR prior post bth. Prove your own statement:
bth
Posted June 17, 2008 at 12:09 pm | Permalink
Max – in case you didn’t notice it Obama was speaking to a largely black audience and also referring to himself.
And the Republicans are stalwarts of moral values.
Why just look at Bob Ney, Duke Cunningham, Larry Craig, Tom DeLay, Jack Abramoff, John Albaugh, Robert Coughlin, Scooter Libby, Dan Burton, Henry Hyde, Bob Lingstone, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Guliani, Dusty Foggo, Mark Foley, Bernard Kerik, Rick Renzi, Ted Stevens, Helen Chenoweth, James Tobin, Don Young…… the list goes on.
“Max – in case you didn’t notice it Obama was speaking to a largely black audience and also referring to himself.”
Where did it say that white folks were not allowed in?
Max – I realize that reading comprehension is not your strong suit but try to follow: I said ‘largely’ black audience. I did not say “segregated church that doesn’t let white people in.”
You are either an idiot or a liar. Or both.
We have a Catholic parish in the northeast side of town that is ‘largely black.’ It also is not a “segregated church that doesn’t let white people in.”
WSC – you left out a couple – Rush Limbaugh and John McCain!
Ok, maybe there were some white folk in the audience, but then why did Obama single out Black Fathers and not ALL Fathers need to take responsibility for their children?
Brownback had similar comments without playing the race card.
“Ok, maybe there were some white folk in the audience”
Wait a second, Max, you said that “white people weren’t allowed in.”
Did you lie or were you mistaken?
MiniMax,
“No Jed, you Dems care about Moral values when it’s convenient to support your view, and when it’s election time.”
Are you kidding? I spent years escorting the women you assholes knocked up and refused to take responsibility for into clinics while you protested out front that it was all their fault, because they believed your lies and promises, and they were so lucky to be impregnated with such great christian DNA that they should be glad to raise and support it by themselves. Yes, I helped them get past you and get their abortions. I would much rather you assholes hadn’t made it necessary in the first place! Maybe you ought to consider your own moral values!
Max – as with Bill Cosby he was personalizing it to make a point. Do you still call Bill Cosby a racist?
And, is your claim ““segregated church that doesn’t let white people in.” no longer operable? Was that claim false?
Obama said,
“The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity — she doesn’t. But she is a typical white person, who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know, you know, there’s a reaction that’s been bred into our experiences that don’t go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way.”
You know, typical white folk be afraid of blacks on the street.
“one aimed especially at African American families, which have been hit hard by the effects of absentee dads.”
Especially at African American families – but not exclusively black fathers.
Duh.
Max, Nathan would be very disgusted at your lack of reading comprehension.
And Max, mentioning race does not mean that someone is “playing the race card.”
And Obama said: “And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”
Who be “they”?
“typical white folk be afraid of blacks on the street.”
Nice try at Ebonics, Max, but do tuck it in, your racism is showing.
bth, I never called Bill Cosby a racist.
I just wonder why Obama is singling out Black Dads and not ALL Dads in his comments.
White, Asian, Hispanic, and non-Black Dads are not important?
Ahh, Clark, mentioning Race does not make one racist.
Jed you got one big strawman story there. I never knocked up anyone cept for the wife.
Let’s hear your full store Jed. Were you shootin at some food, And up through the ground came a bubblin crude? Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea?
Maybe some Ignoramous advised Barrack about Fatherhood.
“irishagitate
Posted June 17, 2008 at 11:09 am | Permalink
Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. Courses in family interactions should start early in school and be required by all-male and female. ”
More govt nanny state? I thought you neocons hated that. Besides, the worst parents in the world are the ones who say “I don’t NEED no damn parenting class, my kids will learn when I beat them on the ass”. And oh there are so many of them.
The rest of what you wrote was pure hogwash.
Amazing degeneration of the thread discussion here.
Started off great, lot’s of comments, ideas on making improvement. Turns into a bash republican post.
Here’s some ideas:
Make it uneconomically friendly for unwed mothers to have babies:
1. Limit child support, welfare, free cheese to only the first child. No increases for subsequent irresponsible activity.
2. Make all payments conditional on the parent(s) to gain a high school diploma, work, and take mandatory urinalysis tests for drugs. Afterall, many of us paying IN to the welfare fund have to take drug tests – why not the receipients?
3. Limit welfare to a set time. Two years? I heard this was part of welfare reform in the 1990’s. Must not have been enforced, or was too easy to circumvent.
4. No father identified by mother? No welfare payments. (and the other way around)
5. Limit the Unearned Income Credit to only pay based upon one child per household. That’s even too generous.
6. Birth of second child – possibly end all welfare/public subsidized housing. Point being, you have unprotected sex, you loose.
7. Education. Kids miss classes, fail in grades, drop out of school: Welfare ends.
Now let’s examine why blacks have such a high number of unwed parents. Whites and hispanic have far fewer. Why? What are these parents doing differently?
8. Parents who are on public assistance, married or otherwise, loose all assistance if their children do not complete school, or if their children commit crimes.
9. Generational unwed/single parents. No assistance granted to either generation parents of the young pregnant or father responsible.
10. Deadbeat dads/mothers who parent more than one child from more than one father/mother get nothing.
Or has throwing money at these irresponsible people worked for the last decades?
A SERMON!
Where’s the separation of Church and State?!?
We can’t have prayers in the schools or 10 Commendments in the court houses, but we can have a President giving SERMONS?!?
MiniMax,
” I never knocked up anyone cept for the wife.”
Then why are you so upset about a message about parental responsibility? I assume you supported yours?
“Ahh, Clark, mentioning Race does not make one racist.”
And who ever said it did?
“I just wonder why Obama is singling out Black Dads and not ALL Dads in his comments.”
“Especially African American”
Not exclusively African American.
Max, Nathaniel Price will be having a discussion with you later about your lack of reading comprehension.
He is disgusted with you.
Remember Obama’s other SERMON last year?
You know, the one where Obama said he will establish his Kingdom on Earth.
——————————————————————————————–
“Sometimes this is a difficult road being in politics. Sometimes you can become fearful, sometimes you can become vain, sometimes you can seek power just for power’s sake instead of because you want to do service to God.
I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God in the same way that Pastor Ron and all of you are instruments of God . . . We’re going to keep on praising together.
I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.”
“I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God in the same way that Pastor Ron and all of you are instruments of God . . . We’re going to keep on praising together.
I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.”
Max are you sure you didn’t take the above speech from the religious right? Sounds an awful lot like those old white preachers….
Amway,
“Or has throwing money at these irresponsible people worked for the last decades?”
If I recall correctly, Obama’s mom was on welfare for a while, and we got a far finer presidential candidate than you’ll ever have!
Every single one of your “ideas” would force more women to have abortions. Is that what you had in mind?
SolDevVB
Posted June 17, 2008 at 11:21 am | Permalink
Parent teacher conferences
After school activities
Homework
Studying for tests
Nightmares
Fights with friends…
You act like you corner the market on parenting ‘misery’ P_mom. Problem is I wish I could be the one there for my son every time one of the above listed and myriad not listed events happens in my son’s life.
I love my son more than anything else in the world. His $hithole ‘mother’ lovers herself and my money more than anything else. Been proven more than once.
You take the most precious and most important job on earth and make it sound like utter misery. I’d trade my left arm for that ‘misery’ with my son.
Since you have absolutely no respect for a child’s life, I can see why you feel that way.”
You are SO full of yourself Mr. Excuses. what, were you abusive and got a restraining order? What exactly keeps you from doing these things with your children? Put your money where your mouth is then and go be a dad. There are many WONDERFUL things about parenting, but doing it alone and broke SUCKS. Doing it with more hurdles is even harder.
I don’t know why everyone is saying this is something a republican would say…seems republicans pay lip service to a lot of things that they don’t practice what they preach. Black and white with Republicans…you say how it should be, and then offer nothing to make it happen.
I realize quite well there are plenty of POS women out there who should never be anywhere near a child. And sometimes both parents are the POS’s. Substance abuse, mental illness, previous abuse…it all plays into it.
I once dated a guy who was a fantastic father…he had the kids probably 50% of the time and he still paid more than 50% of his paycheck to his ex wife. He didn’t complain.
Obama said what he said because it isn’t an epidemic of mothers abandoning their children.
And no Max, I said the antis when they say you should ‘take responsibility for your actions’ that infers that actions require a punishment. Children should never be thought of as a punishment. That is what I said. Don’t try to skew my words.
“would force more women to have abortions. Is that what you had in mind?”
Funny, I thought they might discourage young people from having unprotected sex – if there were big consequences.
Right here AmWay and 696,000 other web hits. Yes, this is OBAMA preaching again:
http://www.youdecide2008.com/2007/10/08/obama-creating-the-kingdom-on-earth/
“Sometimes this is a difficult road being in politics. Sometimes you can become fearful, sometimes you can become vain, sometimes you can seek power just for power’s sake instead of because you want to do service to God.
I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God in the same way that Pastor Ron and all of you are instruments of God . . . We’re going to keep on praising together.
I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.”
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/mandatory-paternity-testing-has-arrived/
On a related note…
Up for consideration…MANDATORY paternity testing of every birth.
Not only is this total BS, but it could be a backdoor DNA database.
————-
I guess we could start creating prison work programs…either parents pay their child support or they go to jail and work for their child support.
As far as abortion goes…when the men have to carry the baby, then they get to have the choice of abortion.
Max, was it a lie or were you mistaken?
“would force more women to have abortions. Is that what you had in mind?”
Interestingly, the annual drop in abortions coincides nicely with the Welfare Reform Act of the mid 1990’s. We went from approximately 1.3 to roughly 845,000 by one report.
But think of how much we would be paying in welfare, crime, and additional taxes had the
48,589,993 total abortions 1973-2004 not taken place.
http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html
Addtionally, the out-of-wedlock birth rate dropped for the first time in nearly a half-century.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/Test031501b.cfm
Was what a lie?
I made the statement about an all black segregated churched based on what BTH posted.
Or were you referring to Obama just addressing Blacks?
That came from the linked Washington Post article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/15/AR2008061502009.html
SENATOR’S SERMON
Obama Discusses Duties of Fatherhood
Calling himself “an imperfect father,” Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) spoke of the need for more African American men to live up to their responsibilities in a Father’s Day sermon yesterday.
Obama said that too many black fathers are “missing from too many lives and too many homes,” adding that these men “have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”
“Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) spoke of the need for more African American men to live up to their responsibilities in a Father’s Day sermon yesterday.”
Again, are White, Asian, Hispanic, and other non-Black Fathers not important?
“I made the statement about an all black segregated churched based on what BTH posted.”
No, you didn’t. You said that white people were not allowed in. Ben said – “I said ‘largely’ black audience.”
Were you lying or were you mistaken?
“But think of how much we would be paying in welfare, crime, and additional taxes had the
48,589,993 total abortions 1973-2004 not taken place.”
Ah, we might have gained a few million productive Americans had 49 Million babies not been killed.
Perhaps another Einstein-type scientist would have came from this group, some genious with a cure for Aids, or Cancer, or the secret to Fusion power?
Sometimes Less is More. Other times, More is More.
Sometimes Less is Better. Some times More is Better.
Wow Clark, you really like pickin flyshit outta peppa.
No time for such none sense.
Gotta go listen to Obama’s sermon of the day on BET.
WSC – it was a LIE. Max knows it was a lie. It was a deliberate lie. He know I never said what he claimed I said – he even sort of distanced himself from his lie with “MaxGrobnik
Posted June 17, 2008 at 4:36 pm | Permalink
Ok, maybe there were some white folk in the audience,”
But, max is still clearly a liar.
“Perhaps another Einstein-type scientist would have came from this group, some genious with a cure for Aids, or Cancer, or the secret to Fusion power?”
Likewise I’m sure we avoided another Charles Manson, BTK killers, Gacey’s, Dalmer’s, Al Capones, and Timothy McVeigh’s.
We can always debate that statement to no end.
But we certainly saved some EIC, WIC, HUD, and prison/crime related costs too.
“No time for such none sense.”
So, Max, just admitting that you either lied or were mistaken takes up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much time that you can’t deal with it?
And Max, nonsense is just one word.
“Likewise I’m sure we avoided another Charles Manson…”
Charles Manson killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy.
You might as well get it straight.
Look around how many grandparents Blsck and White are raising mixed blood kids because the father is off making more kids. It has nothing to do with child support, it is that Black men need to be taught to keep their zippers up, and how to respect women in general. It is a cultural thing that only the Black community can fix and no amount of government money will.
“We can’t have prayers in the schools or 10 Commendments in the court houses, but we can have a President giving SERMONS?!?”
REAGAN preached a good number of sermons… funerals in particular… Nothing wrong with a lay person delivering a Sermon… especially on special days…. Get a Grip Max…
=====================================
MaxGrobnik
Posted June 17, 2008 at 5:04 pm | Permalink
Remember Obama’s other SERMON last year?
You know, the one where Obama said he will establish his Kingdom on Earth.
=====================================
Ummmm MAX — You really are having a reading problem… Only I think it is quite intentional… You LOVE lying….
Obama never said anything about establishing his Kingdom on Earth….
Jesus said for his disciples and his other followers that the Kingdom of God was in their midst…. Obama is saying the same thing…. Please stop your flaming, and lying…. it makes you look even worse than you already are!!
Damn bigot….
Figures from 2002:
Percentage with 2 parent households:
Whites– 73.3%
Hispanics– 65.1%
Blacks– 38.7
“Charles Manson killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy.”
Charles Manson was guilty of the murders of at least eight people – you don’t have to be present for the actual murder to be guilty. Further, Manson entered the home and tied up the La Bianca’s, prepping them for murder.
Ted, on the other hand, has the same body count as Laura Bush – one.
Are you that much of a hypocrite, Fleet, or do you just worship Charles Manson after all these years?
very good fleett… BDP… you just proved Obama’s point, with your statistics… VERY good!!!
Amway,
“Funny, I thought they might discourage young people from having unprotected sex – if there were big consequences.”
Gee, you don’t think the consequences are big enough already? I would have thought you’d have figured out by now that the “just get a bigger hammer” approach doesn’t work as well as you want it to. It didn’t work in your war on crime or your war on drugs, so why on earth would you expect it to work in your war on sex?
“you just proved Obama’s point, with your statistics…”
I wasn’t arguing with Mr. Obama. He’s right.
So was Cosby when you people jumped him for saying the same thing.
“Ted, on the other hand, has the same body count as Laura Bush – one.”
Mrs. Bush’s was an accident.
Ted’s was negligent homocide.
You people do love do defend the indefensible.
“Mrs. Bush’s was an accident.”
She ran a stop sign and killed the boyfriend that had broke up with her that morning.
Negligent homicide at best.
Most men are bums. There is nothing that Obama or Cosby can say that will keep them from being bums. And as a white, let me assure you that it is not limited to black men. Hopefully most such men are in Hell where they belong.
“Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) spoke of the need for more African American men to live up to their responsibilities in a Father’s Day sermon yesterday.”
Again, are White, Asian, Hispanic, and other non-Black Fathers not important?”"”"
Nobody said they were not. Obama was speaking at a largely black church (I know because I was one of the few white members of that church and was baptized there as was my first son). It was a speech aimed at the audience he was talking to. I am quite sure if he goes into a Chinese church or a white Catholic church, he will address his remarks to them.
“She ran a stop sign and killed the boyfriend that had broke up with her that morning.”
On purpose??
Pleased to be asking for a citation.
{That would be proof}
“On purpose??”
Ah, negligent homicide would be “not on purpose.”
Did Ted DELIBERATELY drive off the bridge?
Same ‘diff.
“Again, are White, Asian, Hispanic, and other non-Black Fathers not important?””
Of course they are, but the others you mention are not really the problem.
61% + of the Black population with a single parent?
“Did Ted DELIBERATELY drive off the bridge?”
No. He deliberately did not go to help. He was busy with other things. Like covering his ass.
Did Mrs. Bush take off after the wreck? Was she drunk?
Ah… defending Kennedy.
Fleetwood, why do you still worship Charles Manson after all these years?
I know why you can’t cite.
They are all from the Libs sites you people love so bad. True??
“Fleetwood, why do you still worship Charles Manson after all these years?”
It’s a fun fact to know and tell.
“How many people did Manson kill?”
You could win a beer.
“They are all from the Libs sites you people love so bad. True??”
Huh? Got an English translation for that one?
“Did Mrs. Bush take off after the wreck?”
Was her ex-boyfriend dead? Did she cause the accident? Has she ever expressed remorse for killing him? Did she run a stop sign, in violation of the law?
Did her ex-boyfriend die a nice peaceful death or did he die in agony, cursing her name?
“Jesus said for his disciples and his other followers that the Kingdom of God was in their midst…. Obama is saying the same thing…. Please stop your flaming, and lying…. it makes you look even worse than you already are!!”
Like that will work.
re: Max on this thread.
DNFTT
“you don’t think the consequences are big enough already?”
No I do not. Apparently I am correct as the percentages and Mr. Obama agree.
We are rewarding irresponsible behavior and enabling generations of out-of-wedlock mothers to continue to live off the gubermint, instead of becoming responsible independent citizens.
“enabling generations of out-of-wedlock mothers”
And how do you know that they are all “out of wedlock?”
Amway,
“”you don’t think the consequences are big enough already?”
No I do not. Apparently I am correct as the percentages and Mr. Obama agree.”
Gee, I walked a lot of women into the clinics who were certainly aware of the consequences, that’s why they were there. If you make the consequences even worse, you will only create that much more business for the clinics. And I thought you wouldn’t want to, you sneaky devil!
That’s right, because those women should know their place and stay with those POS men who beat them if they’re not toeing the line.
Is that what you’re saying AmWay?
“American way”
I don’t expect to see you post any more rants against a woman’s right to choose.
But I will. To you, a baby is punishment for people getting more sack action than you.
Last three posters put words in my mouth I never said. Not a very interesting lot.
If you want to screw, and make babies, then be prepared to take care of your own children. It is not the governments responsibility to pay for your kids, not to raise them, and not to provide for their welfare. Just go read the stats on the links I provided earlier. Welfare reform works. It will work better, when we allow young people to become self sufficient, contributing adults. Throwing more MONEY at them only enables them to continue with their lifestyle.
Out of Wedlock. Born of two parents who were not married at the time of birth. Look it up Clark. Look up the stats. This is what Obama was talking about black men not taking responsibility for the children they sired.
Never said anything about them getting married PMomma. I don’t give a crap whether they do or not. I do care that the father take responsibilty for their children: both monetarily and with child rearing. Otherwise, these women were just looking for a stud service? We the taxpayers should not have to pay to support these single men and women – raising their children. Besides, it doesn’t work when the government tries to.
And JR/Bluejay I don’t know what the hell your post was all about. Are you implying that I have posted against abortion? If so, you better back that up. Study long, but you will study wrong. I have never said any such thing.
You guys are looking for a fight, not a dialogue.
out of wedlock…perhaps they should say instead..PARENTS who abandon their children.
I could give two hoots about out of wedlock. Two people can be together and not be married.
Does this sound like someone who is against a woman’s right to abortion?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/obama%e2%80%99s-tough-message-on-fatherhood/#comment-370296
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/obama%e2%80%99s-tough-message-on-fatherhood/#comment-370305
“You guys are looking for a fight”
No, you are looking to condemn people for having sex – pure and simple – you are anti-sex.
Get over it.
“two hoots about out of wedlock”
I agree to a large extent PMomma, but that’s the way the government statistics report it.
Clark,
Your post is all flame no fact.
If your brains were converted to gasoline, there wouldn’t be enough gas to drive an ant’s go-cart, halfway around the inside of a cheerio.
Fleett — I LIKED what Cosby said… I wasnt one who tried to come unglued on him!!
“Your post is all flame no fact.”
Bullshit. Your attitudes and descriptions of sex proves that beyond a doubt.
Anyone that doesn’t buy into your holier-than-thou pristine view of “a woman’s duty to her husband” attitude is treated as a pariah.
Well, it never was like that. Women had sex because they wanted to long before any Sixties sexual revolution. Men wanted sex and accommodated women long before any notions of free love.
You just don’t get it, do you, AmWay?
You are looking for a Fifties “Ozzie and Harriet” world and that just never was nor ever will be.
so the truth is that there are plenty of those kids who could have two parents taking responsibility…but those parents may not be married.
So perhaps we need a new way of taking those statistics.
Your idea of the welfare system is about 15 years out of date there “American way”.
I had thought I remembered you as posting against a woman’s right to choose. If I am incorrect I apologize.
But facts are facts. People just don’t get married and live together til they die anymore.
Again, for Obama, this is his first cop out.
Politicalmamma, call them whatever you want. The problem is the same. Obama at least addresses the issue of fathers not taking responsibility.
I don’t give a darn if they get married, but the young women are forced to raise children alone, and without financial support. Call them deadbeat dads (or mothers in some cases). Whatever you want to call or label them. Too often, these women are trapped, or feel trapped. Low education, minimum wage jobs at best, and being straddled with babies, they feel they have no future.
You seem to strongly feel that women should not marry just because they are pregnant – that the abusive male in the household is worse than no father at all. I will agree. But not all are abusive. Not all would be “bad” parents. Not all would end in divorce anyway. Divorce rates are high almost universally, regardless of whether the marriage began because the woman was pregnant.
The stats reflect who is more than likely to be without financial support, and dependent upon a “system” to provide for their welfare:
Percentage with 2 parent households:
Whites– 73.3%
Hispanics– 65.1%
Blacks– 38.7
Let them stay single, but by Gawd if they keep the child, they should be ready and willing to raise them and provide for their own welfare. This is a matter of responsibility. It is not a “punishment”. It’s what loving parents do naturally.
I guess we could start creating prison work programs…either parents pay their child support or they go to jail and work for their child support.
P_Mom, some states do this. Pennsylvania is one, I believe.
For Sol…
I’m sorry your wife isn’t allowing you to see your kid(s). If the court ordered it, she should comply, no matter how much she doesn’t like it.
Keep in mind that child support and visitation are two separate issues and not tied together. I’m sure for you and others that sucks. But it can be turned the other way around, too. Fathers (or mothers) are allowed visitation, even when they don’t make court issued child support payments.
Ideas out of date? The statistics since welfare reform support it. Reform pushed by a republican congress and widely supported and endorsed by a democratic president.
It’s a step. It’s a realization that we may be enabling generations to stay impoverished and without incentive to get off the program.
I watched Cosby on two different television shows. He doesn’t mince words. He spoke to people directly and challenged the audience. Something is rotten in Denmark – and he wants it addressed because of his love and education with children.
You could have heard a pin drop in the room.
Obama is addressing the issue, I don’t condemn him for it, he may be electionarying – but the message is true.
There needs to be open dialogue on the issue from all sides, and mostly from within the population who are most affected. But it is important to all Americans. Does it include discussion on education? Urban schools versus suburban? Is it just a matter of “bad” parenting? Is it culture? Is it a lifestyle which is being encouraged and perpetuated from within? I suspect it is deeper than just parenting. But I’d agree the discussions start at home.
Without a doubt, I have to say that they rank hypocrisy of the right wing when it comes to matters of sex, sexuality and parenting is truly breathtaking.
Bob Dole screams “where’s the outrage” while running against Bill Clinton, yet Dole left his first wife and child to marry Elizabeth.
Newt Gingrich was a serial receiver of oral sex from female campaign staffers while screaming about the “disgraceful conduct” of Bill Clinton.
George WMD Bush had Robin Lowman.
George HW Bush had Jennifer Fitzgerald.
Bob Livingstone demanded Clinton’s resignation, despite Livingstone’s own history of multiple affairs.
Henry Hyde had a “youthful indiscretion” at the age of 42, destroying his lover’s marriage.
So did Dan “Watermelon Man” Burton.
And the hypocritical Helen Chenoweth.
John S. McCain left the wife that waited for him while he was in captivity because she got fat and was in a wheelchair. He left her for a rich trophy wife.
The list goes on and on and on.
Yet the holier-than-thou right wing condemns and condemns and condemns.
Shouldn’t they take a look in the mirror before pointing fingers?
“People just don’t get married and live together til they die anymore.”
Working on it. My better half and I married in 1980. Lived below the poverty level during many of those early years. Lot’s of pressures. Kids are grown and gone now. And she is still my best friend.
Many of my peers at work, and those in my age group support your claim. But there are a few of us dinosaours out there. Our youngest told me we are lobsters. I thought she was having a blonde moment. But she explained it that she heard lobsters mate for life.
Hopefully, someday, a LONG way off – I will prove you wrong. But who knows?
I do care that the father take responsibilty for their children: both monetarily and with child rearing.
Very noble, AmWay. But how are you going to make a parent (father or mother) take those responsibilities? When a court order and threat of incarceration (in some states) and seizing of tax refunds can’t do the former, how in the world can the latter be enforced?
It’s not a perfect world, and there are no perfect answers.
“It takes a village to raise a child.”
Senator Hillary Clinton embracing an old, African proverb.
“And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”
Barack Obama embracing a new American proverb.
“But how are you going to make a parent (father or mother) take those responsibilities? ”
You don’t do it by giving up and throwing in the towel. Legal measures cost money too. Taxpayer money. It has become effective to garnish wages in many states. It starts with the mother pursuing support. But it shouldn’t stop there.
“It’s not a perfect world, and there are no perfect answers.”
Never said it was. But that’s why we have liberals.
AmWay – I can do you one better. 1971 – 37 years and counting. BlueJay – the ‘Village’ is not the ’state’ – it is the neighbor, scouts, church, grandma, etc etc etc.
“Senator Hillary Clinton embracing an old, African proverb.”
One which is not really effective in our modern society. Entirely different culture.
It takes a mom and dad.
1971? Did they have 8 tracks back then? That’s old.
I mean, that’s great!
“It starts with the mother pursuing support.”
Right off the freakin’ bat you are wrong – I was a single MALE parent from 1989 until just a few years ago.
Your presumption that it is the “mother” that needs to pursue support is just flat out sexist nonsense.
Bullshit. You assumed that only females can be single parents and that is flat false.
So, basically, Obama is telling us….
“My family was screwed up. Fix yours.”
We will see more tacking to the right from this undiscovered candidate. I count on it.
It is worth remembering that he is only the presumptive nominee.
It blows my mind that we have folks who take issue with what Obama said to black fathers. What is your problem?
We will be hearing plenty more from the man because I think the odds are about 5 to 1 that he will be the next president. I hope that he has more surprises in store for those who scorn traditional morality, which has been the backbone of our society.
WSClark,
Stop clicking your Bic lighter. I used both genders throughout my earlier threads. You pick the one and run with it. For the most part, is the other way around. But whatever.
You are getting more belligerent as the evening progresses. Boxlock nailed it.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/open-thread-617/#comment-370399
“We will see more tacking to the right from this undiscovered candidate”
Nonsense – he is just stating what has been stated time and time again by very respected members of the black community.
“You are getting more belligerent as the evening progresses”
Do you mean like stating that you “know more about me” and that you will have the police at my door?
Like that kind of belligerence?
“it is the neighbor, scouts, church, grandma, etc etc etc.”
The neighbor may be a greedy con. The scouts are a con/Christian organization. The church helps only those who take the sermon.
The “village” is the city, the county, the state and the nation.
“It takes a mom and dad.”
Yes well good luck legislating parenthood.
“Do you mean like”
No, I don’t think that will suffice. It is more like the later part of the below post:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/obama%e2%80%99s-tough-message-on-fatherhood/#comment-370395
“Yes well good luck legislating parenthood.”
You can’t. Do we agree? It’s not a state responsibility to raise our children.
All the government can do is throw money at the problem. That is all a government does. And it hasn’t worked thus far.
It must be something else. Something else which IS working for most American families. Something besides legislation. Is it education? Is it the environment? Is it the culture? Why so many babies having babies? Why so many single teenage parents? Why is it higher for some groups than others?
There is work to be done on this issue. But I don’t think the solution will involve the government. Never knew the government to change one baby diaper. Maybe government can encourage improvement. But how? I don’t have the answer, but Obama at least spoke his mind on the issue.
Did I hurt your yiddo bitty feelings with that AmWay?
Tough shit.
Get over it.
You right wing Republicans can dish the shit, but, boy howdy, you cry like babies when it gets thrown back at you.
The day of the nicey-nice liberal smiling and nodding his or her head while the Republicans throw their hate and intolerance are OVER.
If you white-bread, two faced lying sons of bitches want to play hardball – well – let the umpire call “Play Ball!”
But don’t cry if you get your sorry asses kicked.
YOU drew the line in the sand with your “I’m going to send the police to your house” crap, AmWay, so don’t expect me to apologize or to back down.
And don’t be a cry baby.
You think I am pissed off, AmWay? Well there are a WHOLE BUNCH of folks that are pissed off at being called second class, unAmerican citizens by the Republicans.
We are sick of your games, your insults, your disparaging our patriotism, our intelligence, our morals and our decency.
We are going to kick your asses this Fall and usher in a new era – either join in or get the Hell out.
You folks drew the line – now we are crossing it and we are pissed off.
You sons of bitches wanted hardball for years – now that we are going to have both Houses of Congress and the Presidency with a BLACK man, you boys and girls want to play nice.
Yeah, right.
We bought that line once before and we ain’t buying this time.
“The day of the nicey-nice liberal smiling and nodding his or her head…”
—————
Chuckle… Somehow, WS, I don’t think that you have ever been a nicey nice anything. Good chest thumpin’ reminder though for those woosy momma’s boy types that they gotta suck it up, knock heads, and stay with their man until the whistle blows….
Never mind. That’s football.
“Somehow, WS, I don’t think that you have ever been a nicey nice anything.”
Why should I, Mr. Outlander? Why should I?
I have been called a traitor, a commie, socialist, unAmerican, a terrorist sympathizer, a coward, my sexuality has been questioned as has my parenthood and my ethics, as well as my ancestry, etc.
Why should I be nice?
I just fight fire with fire.
Heh
“Hope!”, “Change!”, “Yes we can!”
You don’t do it by giving up and throwing in the towel. Legal measures cost money too. Taxpayer money. It has become effective to garnish wages in many states. It starts with the mother pursuing support. But it shouldn’t stop there.
I could get really snarky here, but I won’t. My ex paid child support, so I can’t complain about him when it comes to that, but he was never involved in his daughters’ lives when we were together. He was worth after we divorced. I could rant, but I won’t. It’s a waste of time.
I have two daughters who are receiving or trying to receive child support. Kansas has Child Support Enforcement, but it isn’t always easy to track down a father and then make him pay. Some quit their jobs. Some move to another state and that state doesn’t have the same “rules”. It costs money. Most single mothers need the support just to survive, so forget having money to hire an attorney, and said CSE is overloaded with cases.
WS, I apologize for saying “mother”, because I know there are father’s raising children on their own. But the majority are mothers, so it’s habit not to mention both.
Oh, yes, and wage garnishment works when the EMPLOYER isn’t a parent dodging paying support. ;)
I never had child support increased for my daughter(s). I could have more than once, but I left it alone. It just wasn’t worth the hassle for a few more dollars. And many women don’t even bother. They’d rather work more hours than deal with the legalities and a man who refuses to pay.
Amway,
You want a solution? How about this:
Every child at puberty gets put on birth control(assuming we develop a working male birth control method)and they don’t get to go off of it until they 1.pass a comprehensive course (4yrs.?)in everything that’s involved in marriage, sex, economics, childcare, home ownership, mortgage and loan requirements and how to spot frauds, etc., in other words everything they;ll need to know to raise a family, and 2.they have a decent (meaning not dead-end) job and a savings account with a set balance! Then they will be qualified to make the choice whether or not to have children. Those who don’t meet those requirements don’t get off birth control until they do. If they never meet them, they never get to have children.
That tough enough for you? It would no doubt have to pass the test of the courts (a tough fight), but it will work in keeping families from starting off in poverty.
“Yes we can”
Have any of “Bob the Builder’s” people been in touch with the Obama campaign about them stealing his slogan?
Bob knows we can and is an ardent supporter of Obama and change we can believe in.
“The Government can hand out money, but Government cannot put faith in a person’s heart, or a sense of purpose in a person’s life.”
Goodness! Is this a great society or what? I ask a pertinent question yesterday, and the anti-abortion brigade (at least those that responded here) can reply with nothing but the usual insults, bigotry, and ignorance.
Even though I now regard my own abortion as indefensible; even though I mourn my former church for several powerful reasons; even though I still love my mother despite more than a few catastrophic deficits, by golly I’m “demented” for supporting abortion rights!
Just because I (audible gasp here) give credence to “Jed’s” attestations; just because I don’t believe I have all the answers; that labels me a reprobate by the right-to-life coral.
Sheesh – I can only imagine what would have occurred had the Eagle staff not deleted my caustic post of two days ago. I said something foul; not about the pro-lifers nor anyone else. But it was something that shouldn’t be said.
The holier-than-thou-ests would have erupted in fury. Then again, they probably wouldn’t have given a cold, crusty crap – ’cause my comment was self-directed.
Had I been a stringy blonde harridan/faux-author whose penchant for gutbucket cruelty were well-known, I bet the cries of “o-o-o-o-o-o-oh, n-o-o-o-o-o-o!” would have rivaled a 747’s takeoff.
I can hear it now……..
“Stop it, Annie! Stop it! You’re the only thing between me and my Calvins that reminds me of my youth! You simply MUST stick around! What will become of me and my vanishing virility if you don’t?”
And so on and so forth.
I still applaud the Eagle for censoring my ultra-caustic comment, though. But by golly, I haven’t changed my opinions. I still believe it to be so, but I shouldn’t have said it.
But it ain’t the holiest of warriors who influence my perceptions here.
Film Fan, you give yourself way too much credit.
Some of the blogs above are proof of the immaturity of people who call themselves “parents”.
They have still not matured!
They do not know how to bear children and raise them in a way that their children will learn from their parents, and be prepared for being effective parents themselves someday.
That is the main root of the problem.
It’s not the government nor the school nor the church’s responsibilty to raise them and teach them what they need to do, or how to behave, to one day be married and be parents.
This is why we are having all the problems we are having with marraiges and improper parenting.
Parents do not take enough responsibility by first, getting married and setting that foundation, and then being effective parents.
Until such time as this happens, nothing will change as the consequences for getting married for the wrong reasons in the first place, and then being badly ineffective parents, will continue.
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After reading this post, I am not sure I understand what you are trying to relate. Please expand on your thoughts a little more. Thanks…