Did you happen to catch John McCain’s speech Tuesday night? If the idea was to steal Barack Obama’s victory night thunder, it failed miserably. People are still talking about how strangely bad it was.
As even Fox News commentators admitted, McCain’s performance was awful — stilted, delivered in that awkward sing-songy cadence. And that forced smile flashed at inappropriate times? Creepy.
He does much better and seems relaxed in town hall meetings or debates.
Put him in front of a teleprompter, though, and he sounds like a deranged Lawrence Welk.
Memo to the GOP: Don’t let McCain read anything aloud or deliver speeches. He can’t pull it off.
127 Comments
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran…
Poor ol’ McSame looked like Abe Simpson during that speech.
What do you expect from an old man who asked Obama out on a date (to Baghdad).
Sooner or later they’ll catch McCain playing footsie in a public bathroom.
Republican = pervert.
Please, don’t criticize McCane’s speech; it was a miracle of taxidermy and animatronics! Think of the time and effort it took to bring a dead man out on stage and have him make a 22min speech! The programming alone ran over a million lines of code including the motion and synthetic speech. You need to have more respect for the technology it takes to run a dead guy for president!
hahahahahahahahahah
(and chortles to boot))
McCain and what he is doing takes second place to everything that Obama does. In some respect that is good for McCain and bad for the voters. He could go before the cameras and say anything he will and no one will know. Thus in November few will know much about him and can vote for him. Than once elected the finger pointing can continue along with the stalling tactics in Iraq and the downward Spiro of the U.S. Economy.
I disagree with Randy when he says: “He does much better and seems relaxed in town hall meetings or debates.”
In those situations he puts me to sleep!
No matter the venue he is boooooring. His stated policies are proven failures. I’m sick of hearing him try to make war hero a qualification for the office of president. I’m extremely happy he survived the atrocities suffered as a prisoner of war. I’m unable to see why that makes him a good (or even adequate) candidate for leading our country.
This is the candidate from the Republican Party.
(giggle)
In a recent ad McOld said he hated war, yet he jokes in sing song about bombing Iran —- doesn’t sound like hate, sounds like he’s entertained (shame on him)
— just like boxlick and regular who think kiddie porn is funny
“lindainks55″ is spot-on with –
“I disagree with Randy when he says: “He does much better and seems relaxed in town hall meetings or debates.”
Good point. In fact most of McBush’s gaffes have been during his town hall meetings. The “bomb bomb Iran” thing; his “we’re down to pre-Surge troop levels” comment; his confusion about Suni and Shi’ites… all came in casual non-scripted events.
And when you note –
“I’m sick of hearing him try to make war hero a qualification for the office of president. I’m extremely happy he survived the atrocities suffered as a prisoner of war. I’m unable to see why that makes him a good (or even adequate) candidate for leading our country.”
As a Navy pilot, McCain crashed five planes before he got himself shot down over North Vietnam. Contemporaries say he was a “reckless” pilot. “Reckless” or a “Maverick?” Two sides of the same psychological coin.
Senile and reckless. Yeah, that’s what America needs in the Oval Office.
I am glad you made that point, Linda Inks, the fact that McCain was a POW does not qualify him for the presidency.
No one is denigrating his service in any manner, yet some would suggest that somehow being a POW makes you presidential timber.
Hardly.
We need to get McBush infront of cameras as much as possible. And then, at opportune times. play the video of him singing … not to mention reminding voters that his preachers want Armageddon.
oh yea…the Repubs picked a real winner in McBush.
I thought when I saw the speech that I had not seen a more obvious fake smile since Nixon. A very dubious distinction, I must say.
Does McCain use that spray on tan stuff? His skin looks oddly orange.
“His skin looks oddly orange.”
That is by design, it sets off his white combover quite well, don’t ya’ think?
Linda,
In 2004, it was Kerry who attempted to make a run at President playing the war hero card.
I don’t remember if you were posting here back then or not and if you were, I am almost certain you didn’t have a problem with Kerry doing that.
“WSClark” observes –
“…some would suggest that somehow being a POW makes you presidential timber.”
We Americans have a pretty skewed view of wartime “heroism.”
Sgt. Alvin York was a hero in WWI, taking gobs of enemy soldiers prisoner singlehandedly. Audie Murphy was a hero, bravely going where no other man dared in WWII.
Bob Dole got shot. Yeah, he suffered and his dreams of becoming a surgeon were shattered and he found a new outlook for his ambition. I can’t help but think of that line in the movie “Patton:” Something like, “The object of war is not to die for your country, it’s to make the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country!”
Getting shot isn’t particularly heroic, is it? Getting shot down and giving into torture (as McCain did) is awful, but it’s more like being a victim than truly “heroic.”
There are all sorts of heroes of legend and myth, and a lot of people have done some pretty heroic things in the cause of war (and peace, for that matter). But I’m not sure that getting shot or getting your plane shot down automatically qualifies.
Some who experience war learn that war isn’t the only route and certainly not the only solution.
Then there are those like McCain who learned no lessons.
“Nathaniel
Posted June 7, 2008 at 11:33 am | Permalink
Linda,
In 2004, it was Kerry who attempted to make a run at President playing the war hero card.
I don’t remember if you were posting here back then or not and if you were, I am almost certain you didn’t have a problem with Kerry doing that.”
As long as you don’t have a problem when McCain gets Swift-boated.
Ben,
If there are a group of veterans who served with McCain and have a legitimate claim that he did something or said something not true about his service, then they have every right to speak their minds.
Some who have never had to fight for or defend anything they have, because better men and women do it for them, are the first ones to then turn around and condemn the ones who are fighting for them.
I hope that doesn’t happen, Ben.
It was deplorable when done to Kerry, it would be deplorable if used against McCain.
I know you agree with me on this.
Those who may try will show only their lack of character, their lack of class and intelligence.
Besides, there are many areas where McCain deserves criticism! Let’s take a look at his desire to continue bush’s failed economic policies. How about continuing the occupation of Iraq even tho NO ONE is safer because of it? Yep, there are many areas to find fault.
“That is by design, it sets off his white combover quite well, don’t ya’ think?”
Is he more Oopma Loompah or more Troll doll?
Once again, the liberals memory only goes back far enough to suit them.
I suppose you forgot about all the attacks on Bush for his service in the Guard?
You act as if the swiftboat veterans came up with the idea of attacking someones service.
You hypocrites didn’t seem to mind when you were doing it to Bush. You still do.
I hope it doesn’t happen either Linda. However, having seen Obama portrayed as a “Manchurian Candidate” I can see that this will be a down-and-dirty campaign. Also having seen a CIA agent planting email rumprs about Obama makes it even worse.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_barack_obama_muslim.htm
“One practitioner in Virginia, who hates Obama like a dog hates cats, led a reporter through his efforts. Because the man is a retired clandestine CIA officer, identifying him could endanger officers or operations that remain classified, so McClatchy will not reveal his name.
In late 2006, convinced that an Obama presidency would be disastrous for America, he decided to start an anti-Obama operation. He combed the public record on Obama. He used a couple of allies and informants — half-jokingly dubbing his group “The Crusaders” — to learn about Obama’s background, especially his Africa connection and how he came to be the editor of the Harvard Law Review.”
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/election2008/story/36410.html
In defense of McCain’s complexion. I know he has battled skin cancer for some time – not sure of the variant. That may have had some effect. It is my understanding that this is a legacy of his time in ‘Nam. They don’t exactly have a lot of sunscreen available there.
“condemn the ones who are fighting for them.”
What were you fighting for in Iraq, Nathan, given that Hussein was of no threat to the United States?
Some Americans have seen through the nastiness. We’ve had the dubious opportunity to see the worst of politics in action these last eight years. All of us political / news junkies will need to be on our toes and quick to point out and correct the attacks and stories that will be made up.
We’ll never change the mind of those possessed of their ideas. I don’t think it’s even a good idea to spend any time trying. Wouldn’t want to be too close to some of the worst for fear the stupidity might rub off. The gang mob rules that will be used are more obvious today to those of us who have paid attention.
With a little luck and dilligence, the attacks will be more damaging to those who deliver them than those who are their targets. Look at this blog for an example of how some posters hurt themselves by attempting to jab at another.
“I suppose you forgot about all the attacks on Bush for his service in the Guard?”
You mean how he got into the Guard through political favors, was too drunk and stoned to fly, then deserted his post?
“Nathaniel” –
Try emulating Shrub’s National Guard “service” with your own weekend warrior duties in the Marine Reserves; just don’t show up.
See how that works out for you.
Ben says, “I can see that this will be a down-and-dirty campaign.”
———–
Any campaign the Republican Party is involved in is down and dirty! This one probably more so since they have McCain as their candidate. He gives them nothing so they’re left with tricks and nastiness and lies. They’re good at it! We need to be alert.
I agree with your good thought upthread. McCain needs to be seen and heard OFTEN. He needs to be front and center with television cameras aimed at him, microphones ever at his mouth. He can then be his own undoing.
I have an idea to counter the Republican dirty tricks.
I have heard that Obama has a million volunteers to watch the elections and to insure that everyone can vote.
How about placing a few hundred thousands of those volunteers at predominantly Republican polling places?
Just a thought.
“KansasNative” suggests –
“…placing a few hundred thousands of those volunteers at predominantly Republican polling places”
Good idea!
Where’s McBush’s flag pin? He must be an Islamic extremist!!!!
“KansasNative” asks a highly pertinent question –
“Where’s McBush’s flag pin?”
Probably in a water glass. With his teeth.
“How about placing a few hundred thousands of those volunteers at predominantly Republican polling places?” – KansasNative.
The hard part would be getting enough volunteers – most of us do not want to be that close to a Republican.
Actually a google image search of over a thousand McBush images revealed NONE with him sporting a flag pin.
MonkeyHawk,
The Reserves and Guard are on a point system. As long as you meet the yearly requirement, it doesn’t matter how many drills you miss.
I have seen several Marines never show up for months and then come in before the end of the year and serve a week or two to make up for it.
It works out just fine.
“it doesn’t matter how many drills you miss.”
That would be a valid point, but no one was stepped forward to state that they served with George WMD Bush in Alabama.
Well, one guy did, but he was there three months BEFORE Bush – kinda shot his story out of the water.
“Nathaniel” educates me about today’s National Guard and Reserves –
“As long as you meet the yearly requirement, it doesn’t matter how many drills you miss.”
So you’re acknowledging that Shrub missed a lot of his required service in the Air National Guard, back before the “point system” was implemented?
That’s progress, “Nathaniel!”
“It doesn’t matter how many drills [George WMD Bush] miss[ed]“… as long as he met the “yearly requirement” (which, uhm, wasn’t Guard policy during the Vietnam Era).
As a practical matter, considering your service as a Weekend Warrior is important (and that the Marines really want your service), I doubt you can simply not show up, the way young Shrub didn’t (as soon as his pilot status was going to require scrutiny of his cocaine-laden urine).
Tell me more, “Nathaniel.”
P.S. — I never got an invitation from you to attend your church.
Nathaniel,
It didn’t used to be that way, at least not in the Air Guard. My ex was in the KANG for 20 years–6 right after we met and the other 14 after we were married, and I can verify that even when he tore up his knee and was on crutches, he was told he HAD to attend weekend drill. He did.
Now, it’s true that one doesn’t/didn’t always have to attend on the specified weekend that month, and because we farmed, he was allowed to make up the one or two weekends he missed because of harvest, but they had to be done within a small time frame.
Perhaps things have changed, or perhaps the Marine Reserves are different than the ANG. I don’t know. I only know how it was up until about 1998/1999.
IIRC, Bush was missing quite a few of those “points” you mentioned that are earned for each drill weekend. In fact, I think there was a letter sent to him concerning it. Sorry I no longer have a link for those. Anyone is free to google it, as I’m sure it’s all still available online.
As far as I know, the Reserves and Guard have always been on a yearly satisfaction system.
The ONLY facts we have are that Bush served his time Honorably and was discharded Honorably.
What are the FACTS that you have to dispute this?
All I see are the same old tired speculations.
Either way, my point was that you liberals act like the Republicans invented the concept of attacking someones service and here you liberals are still attacking Bush’s!
Hypocrital idiots….
“and was discharded (sic) Honorably.”
Daddy got him in. Daddy got him out.
Duh.
“Nathaniel” squirms –
“As far as I know…”
If we all had to depend on “as far as [you] know,” “Nathaniel,” we’d be in a world of s#it.
“The ONLY facts we have are that Bush served his time Honorably and was discharded Honorably.”
Yeah, funny how a Senator grandfather and a Congressman daddy can get that “Honorable” “dischard(sic),” isn’t it?
Near as I can tell, “Nathaniel,” you take your service to the Marine Reserves a lot more seriously than Shrub considered his Guard duty.
He doesn’t deserve your blind support.
He didn’t earn it; he thumbed his nose (and did other things with his nose) at it.
You need to pick your heroes more carefully.
“As far as I know…”
sounds like Bush’s Iraq intel …
“As far as I know…” they have WMDs
“As far as I know…” they are connected with alQuada
“As far as I know…” they flew the planes on 9/11
WS Clark,
Do you have some evidence or any facts which show that someone hooked up Bush with an Honorable Discharge?
That daddy got him in and daddy got him out?
You would be a rich man if you did.
Nothing but speculation.
MonkeyHawk,
Bush served honorably. He recieved an Honorable Discharge.
Do you have any proof otherwise?
Do you have any proof which shows he didn’t?
Official Military records prove he was honorably Discharged.
That is good enough for me.
Alright,
Do any of you have any proof to show that the Air Guard was not on a yearly satisfaction system?
If you want to look it up, go for it.
I am only speaking to what I know now.
At least I am not making blind assertions as if they were fact.
“That daddy got him in and daddy got him out?”
Ah, Price, back in the Viet Nam Era, NO ONE got into the Guard without connections – no one.
The Guard was the best guarantee for a young man of draft age, without deferments, to get out of the draft and service in ‘Nam.
It was an exclusive club – you had to have connections to get in.
Having come of age during the VietNam era I can attast to WSC’s statement. During that period NOBODY got into the Guard without connections. Unlike today the Guard then was NOT sent into harm’s way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_unit
“Champagne unit is a pejorative term used to describe US military units that had been staffed by celebrities or people from wealthy or politically powerful families. Such units were often part of the National Guard, and assigned to lower-risk duty inside the United States. The connotation is that such units were havens for those with connections who wish to avoid conscription into more dangerous duty while still gaining the prestige afforded in the United States to military service.
…
The most infamous champagne unit was the Texas Air National Guard 147th Fighter Group, at Ellington Air Base in Houston. During the Vietnam War many well-connected sons landed in this posting, sometimes with the help of politicians such as Ben Barnes.[4]
Lloyd Bentsen Jr., son of Lloyd Bentsen
George W. Bush, son of George H. W. Bush
John Connally III, son of John Connally Jr.
the son of John Tower
James R. Bath
seven members of the Dallas Cowboys “
“cosmos_originally” contributes to this forum’s dialog by posting –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_unit
Comparing the abuse of National Guard troops by George WMD Bush with the “Champagne Units” of the ‘Nam Era is such an abuse of current troops.
If “Nathaniel” had a whit of historical knowledge he’d realize that.
Comparing Shrub’s National Guard “service” with “Nathaniel’s” Iraq War tour and subsequent obligation to the Marine Reserves with Dumbya’s hitch with the TANG insults every person currently in uniform.
And (and they say irony is dead) poor ol’ “Nathaniel” turns his back on current Guardsmen and Reservists by defending Shrub’s cocaine binges in the 60s.
Then again, young George WMD Bush just might have served his country best by not showing up for duty. John Sidney McCain the Third (for Shrub’s 3rd term) was flying jets at the time and crashed five of ‘em before the North Vietnamese even got a shot at him.
Then, of course, McCain capitulated to torture (which is why he was against torture before he was for it) and confessed to all sorts of war crime he and everyone knows he didn’t commit.
Meanwhile, George WMD Bush was spending Daddy’s Nazi money in Mobile, Alabama bars and risking a deviated septum from all the blow he was snorting.
“Nathaniel” sure knows how to pick his heroes.
So no proof?
Didn’t think so.
http://www.glcq.com/bush_at_arpc1.htm#_Bush%92s_Service_Requirements
Even has scans of the documents proving Bush deserted his post.
MaggotPunk,
You are not considered a deserter when you fail to show up for drill weekends.
That just goes to show you how stupid that website is and you are for thinking that.
As long as you fulfill the yearly requirements you are considered to have satisfactory service.
It shows Bush didn’t show up for the annual physical as required and missed three months during the time he was required to be present. So what do you call it when the military requires you to be present and you are a no-show? If by your standards Nathan then I can call myself an active duty member of the National Guard since I don’t show up either.
‘Nathaniel
Posted June 7, 2008 at 3:31 pm | Permalink
MonkeyHawk,
Bush served honorably. He recieved an Honorable Discharge.
Do you have any proof otherwise?
Do you have any proof which shows he didn’t?
Official Military records prove he was honorably Discharged.
That is good enough for me’
Nathan – if official military records are proof for you then why did the military try to cover up the truth behind Pat Tillman’s death by friendly fire? If Tillman’s mother had not continued pressing for answers and his fellow soldiers came forward to tell the truth, the first ‘official’ military records would have shown a lie as to how Pat Tillman died for his country. Just because something is written down in the military does not necessarily make it so. Are you certain that every file the military has is absolutely the truth?
Maggotpunk,
It is merely called having an unexcused absence.
As long as you come in and make them up within your year, you will have a satisfactory year.
The Reserves and Guard work differently than active duty service.
My standards have nothing to do with it. I am telling you exactly how the Reserves and Guard work. I have been in the Reserves for almost 8 years now.
How long have you been in?
What rank are you?
I am an E-6 in the Reserves. Out of the 2 of us, I think I am the one who knows what I am talking about here.
MonkeyHawk,
The innaccuracy of military records in one case doesn’t prove anything about this one.
Unless you have proof otherwise?
Besides, the military records were correct on Tillmans death. I believe it was what the Army was saying which was different.
No one here has offered me any proof to think that the military records concerning Bush getting an Honorable Discharge were wrong.
All you have is speculation.
My point still stands here though:
That you are a bunch of Hypocritical fools.
You sit here crying about the swiftboat veterans as if the Republicans were the first ones to attack someones service.
Yet here you liberals are still attacking Bush for his with much less evidence….
Hypocritical fools.
TANG pilots were required to have annual physicals.
Is failure to have that physical (the year they started drug tests), and being grounded, merely an “unexcused absence”?
I’m a fully active National Guardsman just like George Bush was. I don’t show up, I don’t take physicals, etc. The problem with you Nathan is that you can’t read. Your answers have already been provided. Bush had been AWOL for an entire year. So your claim that he could make up those absences in that year is difficult if he didn’t even show up for an entire year.
Where was Bush that year that he went AWOL? I’ve presented information, you’ve presented excuses. But isn’t that always the way with you. You’re worthless, since you are so retarded you can’t read anything presented before you but must have dumbed down information dumbed down even further.
I once went to a military recruiter after high school. He said I was the smarter guy he had ever seen. That was enough to talk me out of the service, clearly your recruiter didn’t say the same thing about you.
Yeah cosmos,
Like no on in the Air Force, guard or reserve has ever missed a physical or physicals.
Maggotpunk,
Now you are just a liar.
Where did you go to boot camp? What unit do you belong to?
Bush ACTUALLY joined the Guard, went through training, went to drills, and he was given a leave of absence for some time I believe, and he made up the dates he missed unexcused.
The only thing you can provide here is BS.
My scores on the ASVAB were high enough that I could have been anything in the Marines that I wanted to be.
What does that have to do with the fact that you obviously have no clue what you are talking about here?
Cosmos,
Missing a physicial doesn’t make you a deserter, or prevent you from being honorably discharged.
So your problem with Bush is that he missed a physical?
Cry me a river…
John Allen Muhammad got a honorable discharge from the Louisiana National Guard.
‘Muhammad a Gulf War vet, Islam convert’
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/10/24/muhammad.profile/index.html
His military record shows that he received a summary court-martial on August 2, 1982, in the Louisiana National Guard.
He was tried on one count of failing to report to his duty station on time, three counts of willfully disobeying an order, one count of striking another noncommissioned officer, one count of wrongfully taking property, and one count of being absent without leave. He was demoted one grade and served seven days confinement. “
Answer the question Nathan, where was Bush the year he went AWOL?
Nathaniel,
It cost taxpayers about $1 million to train Bush to be a pilot.
He was grounded, because he failed to take the required physical.
Maggotpunk,
When did Bush go AWOL? Where is the proof of that?
Cosmos,
Where did you get the 1 million dollar number from?
Bush was near the end of his service and he missed a physical.
As I said before: Cry me a river.
Evidence has already been provided. So answer the question Nathan, where was Bush the year he went AWOL?
Here’s a briefer link, not like you’ll read it anyway:
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/02/05/national_guard/
So where was Bush the year he went AWOL?
Maggotpunk,
Pay records document that Bush did not miss an entire year.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-10-bush-records_x.htm
So when did Bush go AWOL?
Ah, Salon.com – the holder of official military records…
I wonder if they can find a school I went to that the military had no record on. I was lucky I kept the certificate or there would be no record.
Back in the day pre-computer, lots of stuff got lost.
I’ve seen old guard records, they are curiously pencil-whipped a lot of times on traiing and etc. :D Well used to be.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-13-bush-military_x.htm
Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama
“”I saw him each drill period,” retired Lt. Col. John “Bill” Calhoun said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla., where he is preparing to watch this weekend’s big NASCAR race.”
We have pay records and retirement points records which prove that Bush served.
We have an eyewitness who says he served with Bush in Alabama.
Do you liberals still want to say Bush was AWOL and didn’t serve?
The real facts and the real evidence is all proving you wrong.
Unsigned pay records on dates the Alabama Guard didn’t meet for drills? Impressive Nathan. I don’t show up for drills either, I suppose that makes me a National Guard member. I wonder if I can get a paycheck for not showing up for drills.
Any other BS you plan on shoveling my way?
Nobody actually recalls seeing Bush in Alabama. Bush claims he continued to fly planes in Alabama despite being on a base that doesn’t have any flying programs and that Bush had been grounded because of his refusal to show up for a physical. I suppose I can draw up some phony pay records that conflict with official service records on discharge papers.
Thanks for proving you are a waste of time Nathan since you couldn’t answer a simple question concerning Bush’s presence during the year he was AWOL.
Try reading my last post.
There was an eyewitness.
Ready to admit you were wrong yet?
Yeah, I recall the Republicans presenting a bunch of eyewitnesses who claimed to serve with Kerry when facts proved that they didn’t.
No military records to show Bush served. Where was he the year he was AWOL? Last time Nathan.
http://www.factcheck.org/democratic_groups_ad_revives_awol_allegation_against.html
Maggotpunk,
Are you blind? Bush has provided you with pay records and retirement points.
Did they just give them to him for being AWOL?
Of course not.
He even went to a dentist while he was in Alabama:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/12/elec04.prez.bush.military/index.html
“Bush’s dental record — released Wednesday night — says Bush received an exam at the Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Alabama on January 6, 1973.”
Maggotpunk,
All you can cling to is fringe liberal websites with little more than speculation.
I have given you proof that Bush was in Alabama from pay records, dental records, and eye witness accounts.
What is your PROOF that Bush was AWOL?
Oh he went to a dentist, I guess that proves it since a dentist has drills and Bush needed to show up for drills. Good one Nathan, that clinches it.
Your source John Calhoun remembers seeing Bush on days that his payroll records shows that Bush wasn’t present. How nice that the two pieces of information you try to provide conflict.
A 900 member unit and only one person claims to have seen Bush. 899 failed to notice him. But I guess that one source trumps them all in Republicanland.
It has been settled Nathan, you couldn’t show where Bush was during that year he went AWOL. There’s no more need to waste time on you.
““”I saw him each drill period,”
HEE HEE HEE HEEEEEE!
lots of folks “swear” they’ve seen bigfoot too!
Maggotpunk,
You have failed to prove Bush was AWOL to begin with!
Idiot.
KFG,
The open thread has enough of your stupidity there.
No need to drag it over here.
McConnell has a record of me showing up on base too. It’s required to present an ID and fill out paperwork for a guest pass. I must have showed up for military service at least four times in 2004.
Ah, poor stupid Nathan. Gotta pity the retarded.
Maggotpunk,
Prove that Bush was AWOL.
Idiot.
“No military records to show Bush served.”
This was weak 7 years ago. Now it’s just pathetic. Who gives a shit? Have you heard? Bush isn’t running.
‘Bush fell short on duty at Guard
Records show pledges unmet’
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/08/bush_fell_short_on_duty_at_guard/
That assertion by the White House spokesman infuriates retired Army Colonel Gerald A. Lechliter, one of a number of retired military officers who have studied Bush’s records and old National Guard regulations, and reached different conclusions.
”He broke his contract with the United States government — without any adverse consequences. And the Texas Air National Guard was complicit in allowing this to happen,” Lechliter said in an interview yesterday. ”He was a pilot. It cost the government a million dollars to train him to fly. So he should have been held to an even higher standard.”
http://www.glechliter.glcq.com/critical_analysis.htm
“By way of background, I am a retired (1999) Army colonel with active Marine enlisted service (1967-69). I have been a registered Independent my entire political life…”
Bush fell short on duty at Guard
Records show pledges unmet
September 8, 2004
What the heck is a retired marine colonel commenting on an Air National Guard service? Like he would have a clue of what went on.
“I have been a registered Independent my entire political life…””
That’s code for a big Lib.
“…one of a number of retired military officers who have studied Bush’s records…”
Allow me to repeat:
Who gives a shit?
I know, let’s yammer about Bush and cocaine for awhile.
The multi-nic’d ‘Regular’ seems to have called a Marine a liar…
What does Nathaniel think about that?
lindainks,
Contrary to popular belief, not everything in a military record can be compiled chronologically or even where it makes sense.
I have a lot of temporary duty assignments I went on that were sensitive/classified and the only thing that shows up is where I got my travel orders, nothing else.
I would say that anyone who looks at anyone’s military records alone and tries to make a story, is understanding less than 1 percent of what the person actually did or went.
Heck, my pay records were lost for six months, but I still got paid. Figure that one out. :D
Cosmos,
You gave an opinion from a Marine.
That doesn’t prove anything.
No one called him a liar, we just disagree with his opinion.
Where is your PROOF that Bush was AWOL?
I’m calling the retired Marine Colonel a person who was on a mission to skew a story. I’m sure if said Colonel went before a Military Board, his answers would be completely different as he would have to tell the truth.
No question in my mind about that.
Sounds like records are meant to mislead, confuse, not prove or disprove anything. That’s what I’m hearing. Another example of the oxymoron, “government intelligence?”
Since they don’t prove anything, there will always be questions — at least in the mind of people capable of thinking.
Sort of right lindainks. Old military records prior to the use of computers were very unreliable. Got to remember that was the days of ‘draft evaders’ and a lot of people didn’t really care if they did their job or not, including the ones documenting the records.
Later on, the records became more precise with computers and constant IG inspections, but it took awhile before there was any continuity in personnel records.
The main reason why is that there are so many fingers in the personnel file.
There are:
Personnel (of course)
Finance
Legal
Commanders
Supervisors
Trainers
Supply and Equipment Monitors
Inspector Generals and Command Staff
Each of which have a whole herd of underlings that may or may not do a good job of documentation.
Like I said, it’s better now, but back then record keeping was abysmal and very much lacking.
“Another example of the oxymoron, “government intelligence?””
The same goverment the you peoples want to run health care.
The multi-nic’d Regular posted June 8, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“I’m sure if said Colonel went before a Military Board, his answers would be completely different as he would have to tell the truth.
No question in my mind about that.”
———–
In short, Regular is calling him a liar.
Linda,
There can be reason to question things and to have doubt. I am not saying otherwise.
However, the attacks on Bush’s service record have gone far beyond “reasonable” and right into the absurd.
It is no longer a question of Bush’s service, just a liberal attack point now.
A person capable of thinking and being reasonable would see how absurd some of these claims are.
Cosmos,
You call me a liar all the time.
I suppose calling Marines a liar is just a false standard which suits your argument today?
Where is your PROOF that Bush was AWOL for a year?
cosmos_originally
Posted June 8, 2008 at 2:11 pm | Permalink
The multi-nic’d Regular posted June 8, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“I’m sure if said Colonel went before a Military Board, his answers would be completely different as he would have to tell the truth.
No question in my mind about that.”
———–
In short, Regular is calling him a liar.
——————————
Nope.
I’m saying that the Colonel’s conclusions might be altered when he has to only present the facts to a military board that punishes for false or misleading statements.
If there were any factual statements in the Colonel’s study, then he could have presented them to the Pentagon or to the T.A.N.G.
If there were any factual statements in the conclusion, then it could have been brought up in a tribunal status.
However, all you posted were newspaper releases, innuendo and opinion.
Trial by press is for the weak minded.
Nathaniel,
The label fits you.
Where is your PROOF that the Arctic Refuge would produce 2 million barrels of oil a day for the next 15 years?
Thru a pipeline that has only another 1.3 million bbl a day capacity.
Were is your list of hundreds of credible, peer-reviewed scientists that disagree with AGW?
Here is the text of Newsweek’s 1975 story on the trend toward global cooling. It may look foolish today, but in fact world temperatures had been falling since about 1940. It was around 1979 that they reversed direction and resumed the general rise that had begun in the 1880s, bringing us today back to around 1940 levels.
Multi-nic’d Regular,
His opinions are based on facts.
The Pentagon and TANG would not want to hold a military board on the issue.
Opinions based on facts are only relevant to the matter and the motion at hand.
Ask any lawyer.
Printing findings in a rag isn’t exactly court room ready.
Still no proof that Bush was AWOL for a year?
Here are the FACTS:
-Bush did serve in the National Guard.
—He went through basic training
—He flew fighter jets in the Air Guard.
-Bush was Honrably Discharged for his service.
-There are pay records and retirement point records which indicate he did serve in Alabama and was not AWOL for a year.
-No official action was ever taken against Bush for being AWOL as people claim.
All the liberals have is speculation, no proof.
BDP fleettwood,
I tried to explain the mid-1970’s Time (and Newsweek) to you yesterday.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/06/gop-blocked-climate-change-bill/#comment-364976
* 7 articles predicting cooling
* 44 predicting warming
* 20 that were neutral
———–
I’m sorry that you can’t understand simple facts.
Human-added aerosols cause cooling. Human-added GHG’s cause warming.
First, environmentalists took the lowest possible estimate of the ANWR’s potential recoverable oil reserves — about 5.7 billion barrels–and cut it by roughly 40 percent to around 3.4 billion barrels. Then they assumed that the oil would be produced at roughly 19 million barrels per day (b/d).
But the most likely estimate places the ANWR’s recoverable reserves at an estimated 10.3 billion barrels — more than three times the amount these environmentalists claim.
Power…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H_W_Bush
Human-added aerosols cause cooling.
Another panty twisting, credibility busting, bogus steaming pile.
I dunno cosmos, fleettwood’s writing of the newstory appears that he has a firm grip on the content of the newstory. He stated where it came from and what it said.
Just because you don’t like the message, doesn’t mean that fleettwood does or doesn’t understand what you posted as the altered depiction.
It merely means that fleettwood posted a story.
Imagine that, something posted and all those GORACLE acrobatics to confound it.
I guess next cosmos will exclaim his expertise as a Climate Scientist.
Oh wait, cosmos is not a scientist. my bad…
BDP fleettwood,
Learn the difference between “technically” and “economically” recoverable.
“6 months” is only an figure of speech to compare the total quantity to U.S. consumption.
Multi-nic’d Regular seems not to have learned in his IH classes that science is published in peer-reviewed science journals — not in ‘Time’ and ‘Newsweek’.
Cosmos,
Still waiting…
Where is your proof that Bush was AWOL for over a year and why do you discount the proof that says otherwise?
Are you an expert in the field of military service now?
“First, environmentalists took the lowest possible estimate of the ANWR’s potential recoverable oil reserves”
Answer why the eco-nuts would do that, and you know their agenda.
BDP fleettwood: “Another panty twisting, credibility busting, bogus steaming pile.”
BDP will now post his proof that aerosols, like sulfates from the Mt. Pinatubo eruption, do not cause cooling.
And BDP still does not understand ECONOMICALLY recoverable estimates.
Nathaniel,
Are YOU more of an expert on the issue than retired Army Colonel Gerald A. Lechliter?
Have YOU carefully studied all of the documents, procedures, etc?
Cosmos,
I wouldn’t say that either the retired Army Colonel or myself are experts.
Would I say that I have more experiecne in regards to the issue?
Yes.
I am in the Reserves. I see how the Reserves work every day.
Was the retired Army Colonel ever in the Reserves?
I don’t think so.
What makes him any more of an expert than me?
Nathaniel posted June 7, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“As far as I know, the Reserves and Guard have always been on a yearly satisfaction system.”
No additional comment needed.
Cosmos,
You still have yet to provide one shred of evidence for what you are claiming here.
Quoting the opinion of someone else doesn’t count.
Where is your proof?
‘The innaccuracy of military records in one case doesn’t prove anything about this one.
Unless you have proof otherwise?
Besides, the military records were correct on Tillmans death. I believe it was what the Army was saying which was different’
Nathan – you stated that you went by official military records and I simply submitted to you the possibility of a falsified official military record that would have gone on as a cover-up but by the actions of Pat Tillman’s mother and friends. And isn’t the Army a military service that has those offical military records you are spouting off about? So Tillman’s records were not entirely truthful, were they?
My point was that even if military records are classified as official, does not mean they are necessarily truthful. I doubt very much that George W. Bush’s father would have stood by while his son’s official military record reflected his son was AWOL or dishonorably discharged.
Money and power talks and bullshit walks.
We only hadallegations against Kerry – that was enough for the Swift-boaters. At least John Kerry went to Nam – Bush sure didn’t. And he made damn sure he wouldn’t.
Ben,
“And he made damn sure he wouldn’t.”
And you know this how?
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