Wow. Former Kansas Sen. Bob Dole didn’t mince words in a ferocious e-mail he sent last week to Scott McClellan:
“There are miserable creatures like you in every administration who don’t have the guts to speak up or quit if there are disagreements with the boss or colleagues,†Dole wrote. “No, your type soaks up the benefits of power, revels in the limelight for years, then quits and, spurred on by greed, cashes in with a scathing critique.â€
But Dole was just getting warmed up: “In my nearly 36 years of public service I’ve known of a few like you. No doubt you will ‘clean up’ as the liberal anti-Bush press will promote your belated concerns with wild enthusiasm. When the money starts rolling in you should donate it to a worthy cause, something like, ‘Biting The Hand That Fed Me.’â€
Tell us how you really feel, Bob. If nothing else, he’s proved that he can still get in touch with his inner mean streak.
149 Comments
Right on the bullseye Senator Dole. :)
The only thing negative I can say about McClellan and his book is that he should have been man enough to speak out about the bush MISadministration crimes while serving for the White House.
2001 - Jan. 10 2009………….the years of NATIONAL DISGRACE!!!!!!!!!!
Bob,
Step away from the Viagra.
He can attack McClellen all he wants and maybe it is deserved BUT I see that NONE of the Republicans are saying anything in the book is a lie- because nothing in the book is a lie.
It is a book of FACTS about these criminals lied to the American people and used the timid no good media in this country to sell a war that was not necessary. And he is right on about the so-called media too. It is not the job of the news media to “wave the flag” but to question and investiagate the TRUTH and because they FAILED, we have 4000 dead Americans.
4000 + dead and more to come. Republicans are murderers.
I don’t know what is or isn’t in the book but Dole hit the nail on the head with pointing out that opportunists exist in every administration who don’t speak out when they should and then write a scathing account for money. Their integrity is sorely in question.
I would like to see the accusations brought to public light and those responsible held to account, including McClellan and anyone else involved if treachery took place.
Because of our current libel laws concerning public figures, anyone can get by with saying just about anything, so we need to have a forum by which to determine if the accusations are, in fact, true and if so, how the country will deal with them.
Dole has an excellent point and I hope future administration personnel pay attention and that they stand up immediately and not wait until they can cash in on their story.
America deserves better.
Let’s close this loophole.
Why complain about the Bush Administration? We voted them in (well, maybe not the first time). They is us. Bush and Cheney aren’t going to be impeached, they’re not going to be investigated, at least not by anybody that matters, and they’re going to retire on a nice fat pension furnished by Uncle Sugar and other “friends”.
Scotty will make lots of money on his new book and Bob Dole will go back to private life and spend the rest of his days designing the ultimate “woodie”.
Wow, once again a chance to salute Senator Robert Dole of Russell, Kansas. Greviously injured WWII veteran, member of Kansas legislature one or two terms, U.S. Senator and president of the U.S. Senate for many years, world’s most prolific public speaker for many years, candidate for President.
I believe Dole would have been elected President four years earlier if senior Bush had stepped aside for his second term … changing world history as we have known it the past eight years.
Now 85 years old … keep fighting Senator Dole.
Ah……………the “President of the Senate” is the Vice-President of the United States. Not diminishing Senator Dole’s carerr, but he was never VP.
Being the weak man he is Scott McClellan succumbed to the act of betrayal at the encouragement of those who used him by the ‘thirty pieces of silver’ they offered.
His fate will be that of any disgusting traitor.
Boxlock
Posted June 1, 2008 at 8:05 am
His fate will be that of any disgusting traitor.
What fate is that, Boxlock? He’ll sell a lot of books and retire at 40?
We should be so lucky.
“His fate will be that of any disgusting traitor.”
History will see bushco in the same light!
BUSH DID NOT LIE! He was being “Political savvy “ !
Dole reminded us again that he used to be one of the most vicious Republican attack dogs to ever serve in the Senate. Loyalty to a corrupt, lying President is apparently more important than loyalty to the American public that he was elected to serve. I was delighted that Clinton sent the old fool packing back in 1996. Bob Dole is nothing more than an evil mouthed old GOP hatchet man.
I still have my bumper sticker from 1996:
“Not Everybody In Kansas Likes Bob Dole”
I was never proud of the hateful old windbag from Russell. Good riddance.
It looks like Viagra has made a nasty old GOP hack even more bitter than when he was in the Senate. Usually more sex makes a man happier, but apparently it has had the opposite effect on Dole.
Shoot the messenger, Bob. Now that the capos are squealing on the Mob Bosses, it is time to remind the gang members of the Code of Silence.
What about the real issues raised by McClellan. The important things here are the revelations of the thinking of a White House who deceived a country into a un-winnable quagmire of a war that has lost the USA the moral high ground.
We will be suffering the consequences of this Republican administration for decades.
Address THAT, Bob.
Nano,
Desperate people do desperate deeds.
McClellan’s book looks like a desperate deed to me.
“What fate is that, Boxlock? He’ll sell a lot of books and retire at 40?
We should be so lucky.”
I believe you’re first statement is correct Nano, but as for you and I being so lucky, remember…he must live with himself, and that will be uncomfortable at best I would think.
Dole’s comment reveals that the Republican National Committee has finally figured out that “damage control” is all that remains of a national strategy. They lost three Congressional special elections in historically safe seats - most recently in Mississippi for Trent Lott’s old seat - and so they are trying to demonstrate to other Repub Party members that future publicly disloyal acts like changing party affiliation, supporting Democratic Party candidates, and writing books and articles that tell the truth will not be tolerated. In other words, “we will eat you alive” is Dole’s message to other Republicans.
Dole’s comment also reminds me of Kris Kobach’s “loyalty oath”.
Ole Bob. He’s a pip. He would have preferred that the lies lay undisturbed. My guess is that Old Dad, Bush One, called his Old Friend, Old Bob, and whined in his old whiny voice. Old Bob did his share of rationalizing the irrational during the Vietnam Era. Those old goats are fading away; they’ve had their day.
As Nano said, maybe Old Bob’s Viagra kicked in and he felt inspired to assert his virility.
Bob Dole has a very good point. If people would put country before money and grow some balls, and and bring up these issues before it’s too late then we might not be in such a mess.
All Scott has really done is, report how the nuclear bomb was deployed instead of actually trying to stop it when he says he knew what was going on. Thats an analogy, probably a bad one, but it’s all I could come up with, because of the nuclear title of this thread.
It’s interesting to watch “the media” deal with McClelland. Basically, he’s saying they were easy dupes and willing co-dependents. Take Tim Russert. In his condescending dialogue with McClelland on Meet the Press, Russert milks the Old Bob Dole tirade, but fails to mention that he, Russert himself, testified before a grand jury and help indict Scooter. So, Timmy knows a lot more than he reports. [Libby falsely claimed that he heard about Plame from Russert. Nice try, and poetic in a way, but it was a lie.]
Russert must be saving the scoop for his next book, rather than sharing it with us now; kinda like Scotty did.
He can attack McClellen all he wants and maybe it is deserved BUT I see that NONE of the Republicans are saying anything in the book is a lie- because nothing in the book is a lie.
It is a book of FACTS about these criminals lied to the American people and used the timid no good media in this country to sell a war that was not necessary. And he is right on about the so-called media too. It is not the job of the news media to “wave the flag” but to question and investiagate the TRUTH and because they FAILED, we have 4000 dead Americans.
It’s still not comforting to know we have people like Scott, holding positions of power, and then do nothing to retaliate, and just sit there, wait out there term to stay on the safe side for themselves, and then write a tell all book about things they knew, but could have diplomatically fought. It sounds like someone with money on their mind, just like Bush, but maybe even a little more serpentine.
If McClellan had spoken out when it mattered, it wouldn’t have mattered. Bush had you fools so mesmerized you would have called Scott a traitor and dismissed him.
There were others that spoke out, faced the music, but had virtually no impact.
Dole should be addressing the issues Scott raised rather than trying to smear him. But, it’s typical dole.
I always thought dole was a pineapple, but now I realize dole is a nut.
“Barnie” emerges with –
“Bob Dole has a very good point. If people would put country before money and grow some balls, and and bring up these issues before it’s too late then we might not be in such a mess.”
If McClellan’s guilty of anything, it’s of piling on. And we all know how revelations of Shrub’s Reign of Error were embraced by people such as Paul O’Neil and Richard Tennet and Colin Powell, and Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, and on and on.
The damnedest thing about Dole’s recent rant is how neither he nor any of the Bush Cultists can argue with the facts of the matter. They merely harangue about issues of “loyalty.”
McClellan makes it pretty clear that his longtime loyalty to Shrub was betrayed by outright lies and deception. No defender of Shrub has been able to attack the substance, only the style of McClellan’s quest for personal redemption.
Is dole angling for a v.p. slot on the gerriatic ticket?
At least Old Bob said something original. Trite, ad hominem and shallow, but original in that he didn’t say, “It’s not the Scotty we all know and love.”
He really shouldn’t critize McClelland for being on the political gray train and reaping the fruits of his political spoils appointment. Afterall, Old Bob’s been doing it for decades . . . and decades and decades.
At least Old Bob said something original. Trite, ad hominem and shallow, but original in that he didn’t say, “It’s not the Scotty we all know and love.”
He really shouldn’t critize McClelland for being on the political gray train and reaping the fruits of his political spoils appointment. Afterall, Old Bob’s been doing it for decades . . . and decades and decades.
At least McClellan kept the lie about Saddam Hussein’s capture under wraps.
Perhaps he didn’t know that Hussein was not captured in a “spider hole” as Bushco has claimed.
The pictures of the “hole” were doctored and the date trees in the background should have been barren instead of full of fruit.
This will be revealed in October when McBush will be knee deep in the war crimes of this administration.
Ahhhh…make that NECK deep in the war crimes of the Republicans.
Sucks to be Republican.
Old Bob Dole
was a merriless soul
a merriless soul was he.
If some moron believes this stuff, they probably were on Michael Moore’s band wagon as well. He and McCellan would make a good pair for the scum sucking slug party … and some moron would vote for them. Heaven help us …
KansasNative was the entire Army batallion that found him complicate in the Saddam capture deception? How do you keep that many people quiet for this long? Why wait bring it on now. Lets face this liar in his own hidey hole. Don’t let him leave office with this secret unexposed.
We have McClellan that wants to testify before congress, then we have bush’s brain that refuses to testify. Who ya gonna believe?
Well, he didn’t say anything that any thinking person didn’t already know…..we’ve been saying the same stuff since the beginning of George’s grand adventure. He’s just like everyone else in the Bush administration…taking advantage of any situation to feather his own nest. If he’d have quit his position and exposed Bush in the beginning, maybe he’d actually deserve some respect. Too late now.
Scott will not change many minds, hell the morons still think Saddam had wmd’s, and Iraq was involved in 9-11!
Dole lost any amount of respect that I had for him, the man should have come out against he Bush admin years ago. Idiot. Figures he’d be from Kansas.
Moral dilemma: Is McClelland more moral by finally coming clean than the loyalists who continue to repeat the lie? Is he more of a villain than, say, Sen. Pat Roberts who covered up and continued the Big Lie as chair of the Senate Select Committee on Intel (and as a loyal Republican)?
Speaking of moral dilemmas, where have the churches been the last seven years? Bush’s Misbegotten War does not come close to passing the smell test of a Just War. The Catholics, for example, have a 12 point test. Is it necessary? Is it proportionate? Etc. But nary a word from the pulpit. Plenty of politicking on the abortion issue, e.g. the local auxiliary bishop, who scolded Gov. Sebelius for supporting public policy that is at odds with the current Catholic doctrine. Well, holy Moses, so is Unjust War. No public word from the Vatican there.
Then we have the Hagees, the Falwells, the Robertsons, the Dodsons, and your average Lutheran down the street. Where’s the Gospel and where are the pastors of the flock on that subject?
Yes, McClelland is morally compromised, but he ain’t alone.
Bob WHO?
Oh yeah the Viagra limp member “guy”. The sacrificial lamb in 1992.
The epitome of the joke that is Kansas.
I think ol bob actually died years ago. He’s the test pilot for a new drug they aren’t releasing yet.
I think bob and those like him should continue to wear their unflabbable, unfathomable bush support on their sleeves even after the shrub is out of office.
Or in jail.
Where DID all those bush bumperstickers go?
I liked knowing who was who.
Actually, there has been quite a bit of discussion in churches, and proclamations by churches regarding the Iraq War. Most of what I have heard has been a rejection of the war’s aims and conduct. The image of American Christians marching in lockstep with the Bush Adminstration, off to conquer the “unbelievers”, is mostly a fantasy kept alive by media outlets that have no use for anything spiritual.
As for Mr. McClelland, his book carried no suprises for me, just confirmed what I’ve thought about the Bush/Cheney crusade since it began in 2003. I do believe he is trying to make right for his previous moral shortcomings. That doesn’t make him any less lame for not speaking out then, when it might have had some meaningful impact, rather than now, when it comes off as nothing more than vengeful and self-serving. By the same token, his lack of guts doesn’t mean his book isn’t an accurate look inside the Bush White House.
Is this the same Bob Dole who was recently shilling for the Republican party that voted for the war based upon lies? I don’t see the hypocrite dropping out of the Republican party.
Kansasdem - the Pope HAS come out against the Iraq War - but I’ve been told by several Catholic Bush loyalists that it is only the Pope’s opinion and not a doctrine to be followed???
As for Scott McClellan, maybe this guy really did believe Bush in the beginning. As I am hearing bits and pieces of the story, it is only when the outing of the CIA agent, Valerie Plame, came out that McClellan started to question things. I think McClellan is gunning for Cheney, Karl Rove and Scooter Libbey, more than Bush.
And isn’t McClellan still saying that he does not believe Bush intentionally lied to the American people about the war?
I think McClellan may be right in Bush did not intentionally lie during the run-up to the war because it was quite obvious that Dick Cheney was the puppet master running the White House. But later when the intelligence was found to be faulty - then that was when Bush could have set the record straight and told the truth to the American People.
But for Bob Dole to look down on anyone else is a real laugh. Bob Dole has been on the government dole for many, many years and now he is a lobbyist for the Arabs/Muslims. I don’t see anyone getting their panties in a bunch over this. Some could say that Dole is working for our enemies, the Muslims. After all, if Barack Obama is accused of being a Muslim because his father was one, then shouldn’t Bob Dole be accused of being an appeaser of Muslims by his lobbying for them?
Dole is absolutely correct.
McClellan is a coward.
If McClellan REALLY thought this way, he is a worm to have stayed with the administration as long as he did.
NOBODY can remember Scott McClellan EVER having an argument, over policy, with ANYONE in the White House.
Scott took his cheap shot.
Now? We can all turn our backs on Scott. He said nothing new. The only thing he did was repeat what Democrats have been saying, in book form.
A liar and a coward.
Never did much care for Dole. When he was Sen. minority leader he was always wanting to cut a deal with the Dems. when he should have been ready to fight. He was even ready to pass Hillarycare until some other Republicans found their backbone and defeated it thank God. The two best things he ever did besides the Scotty E-mail was hanging on in 1974 and depriving Bill Roy of a Senate seat. (what a disaster that would have been), and that 48 hour blitz in the last days of the 96 campaign that probably saved several Republican Congress seats from going Democrat, even though he knew his own race was lost. Oh by the way, I have no doubt in my mind that he could win his Senate seat back in 2010 if he wanted to, even though nobody will admit to ever having voted for him.
“A liar and a coward.”
What did McClellan lie about, Rossell?
WS
For starters, McClellan claims to know what people talked about, when he, McClellan, was not even in the room.
Much of McClellan’s book is about the political hacks Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson.
Plame and Wilson are proven liars.
Wilson even admitted, to a Congressional Committee, that he did not tell the truth in his famous Op-Ed piece.
Anyone who supports Plame and Wilson is dishonest.
To support a lie is a lie, in itself.
McClellan knows better, and he is dishonest, anyway.
“Plame and Wilson are proven liars.”
Provide a link or two, because I do not think that is accurate.
“For starters, McClellan claims to know what people talked about, when he, McClellan, was not even in the room.”
And you know this how?
WS
As usual, you require some remedial education.
Everything I have said, on this thread, is in the historical record.
Wilson said, to a Congressional Committee, that he “misspoke” when challenged on his lie that he had seen “forged documents” that he, Wilson, had NEVER seen.
Wilson was NOT sent by V.P. Dick Cheney, at any time, to do anything. Wilson lied on this point.
Wilson NEVER wrote a report, on his “mission” to Africa. His report was oral. Wilson LIED!
Wilson actually told the CIA, orally, that Saddam WAS trying to by uranium from Niger. In Wilson’s Op-Ed piece, Wilson LIED!
Wilson was SENT by his wife, political hack Valerie Plame. On this point, Wilson and Plame BOTH lied!
Plame was OPENLY working for the CIA, parked her car, registered in her name, in a CIA parking lot every working day. Her name was on the parking stall.
Plame was NOT covered by any law that would make the revelation of her CIA status a crime. The people who WROTE the laws, on these subjects, state clearly that Plame was NOT covered.
Besides, simple logic would hold that you can only “out” someone ONE TIME! Once outed, it is no longer a crime to discuss the facts in front of us. The Eagle was not guilty of OUTING plame any more or any less than anyone else, after Richard Armitage first spoke of Plame’s CIA status to the press.
I do not think that even Armitage broke the law, as Plame had been state-side for several years prior to Armitage saying anything about Plame.
McClellan spends much time on the hacks Plame and Wilson.
Plame and Wilson are proven political hacks and proven liars.
McClellan is also, now, a proven hack and liar.
“…but I’ve been told by several Catholic Bush loyalists that it is only the Pope’s opinion and not a doctrine to be followed???”
That would be correct. It’s his opinion. It’s not “official” doctrine. You can’t be kicked out for disagreeing.
“As usual, you require some remedial education.”
You have stated your opinions, Rossell. That does not equate to “facts.”
Kindly provide a link to prove that “Plame and Wilson are liars.”
And, by the way, the CIA Director said that Valerie Plame was covert at the time she was outed - I will take his word over yours.
WS
There is NOT a SINGLE CIA employee who has the authority to arrest a United States Citizen.
There is NOT a SINGLE CIA employee who has the authority to determine if ANY United States Citizen violated the law.
The opinion of the CIA, alone, on any matter of the law is completely irrelevent.
WS, your browser works as well as mine does, I am sure.
The documented cases of Plame and Wilson telling out right lies are too numerous to count.
Type “Joe Wilson Lies” or “Valerie Plame Lies” into your own browser, and do your own research.
As stated previously, Wilson admitted to being a liar, in a Congressional hearing, no less.
Case closed!
WSClark
Posted June 1, 2008 at 3:29 pm | Permalink
“As usual, you require some remedial education.”
You have stated your opinions, Rossell. That does not equate to “facts.”
Kindly provide a link to prove that “Plame and Wilson are liars.”
And, by the way, the CIA Director said that Valerie Plame was covert at the time she was outed - I will take his word over yours.
—
:lol:
To paraphrase a former Republic president:
“The trouble with our [guys like Franklin] is not that they’re ignorant: It’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.”
Gotta give him this, though. If wishes were facts Franklin would be an encyclopedia instead of a bad FAQ one-sheeter. :D
“Case closed!”
Aren’t you the guy, Rossell, that stated emphatically that Jesus was NOT a pacifist, despite all that Sermon on the Mount - turn the other cheek stuff?
Yep, that was you.
I guess the world looks different to you than it does to the rest of us.
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one
You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
—Luke 6:27-31. NIV
Some point out that Jesus said “he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one” from Luke 22:36 and the Old Testament laws regarding killing in self-defense to support this view. However, even Luke 22:36 could have been figurative as in Luke 22:38 the disciples point out that they have two swords among the twelve of them, to which Jesus replies “That is enough.” If Jesus meant his statement to be taken literally then twelve swords would have been required, not two.
He was both. Sometimes you have to defend yourself.
Pacifists believe (by definition) you never do.
In the end, they believe, it doesn’t matter.
Thank you Bob Dole, for telling it like it is (or should be)!!…. But I have to disagree with you on McClellan’s next job, because only a complete fool (or Scumbag) would hire a traitorous, lying, coward for anything other than a slime job.
WOW!!! IT’S GOING TO A LONG, HOT & UGLY SUMMER IN WICHITA BEFORE THE AUGUST PRIMARIES. .
Bob Dole, the dean of the fascist influence peddling GOP politician/attorneys is getting a little testy about free speech, transparency & accountability. In my opinion just about everyone GOP Kansas politician wants to grow up to be Bob Dole (Senate Majority leader, presidential nominee, 60 minute commentator with former president Bill Clinton, & close associate with former National Democrat Party Chairman Bob Strauss. I am writing this blog entry to challenge my fellow Christian, conservative Republicans to ask themselves if the attorney-politician power couple, Senators Bob & Liddy Dole are really any less elitist, fascist or hypocritical than Bill & Hillary Clinton.
Wichita has become a fascist Orwellian city-state due to code of silence by the GOP controlled Legislative Coordinating Council & the Kansas Bar Association which controls the Supreme Court. It’s really bad when local GOP state senators & state representatives are afraid of retaliation by the juvenile department of local district attorney, Democrat Nola Foulston who is treated like the most powerful person former FBI director J. Edgar Hoover who could even intimidate President Kennedy & Johnson. .
In Kansas constitutional law professors (conservative GOP State party Chairman Kris Kobach and lieral former Washburn law School Dean Bill Rich), self-proclaimed Christian attorneys (Jeff Syrios, Laurence Williamson), liberal civil rights attorneys (Pedro Ingogarary & Jim Lawing), investigative reporters and state legislators in Kansas have become as dysfunctional and useless as Bob Dole’s withered hand. I don’t expect Bob or Liddy Dole to use any of their political capital to expose the corruption, nepotism and intellectual dishonesty at the Wichita State & University of Kansas schools of government & journalism. Like Senator Susan Wagle, Bob Dole is just another act in the political circus promoted & produced b the cynical Kansas publishers. Why should Bob Dole complain at the intellectual dishonesty at KU Law schoo? KU named an institute of government after him. Senator Liddy Dole neve risked any political capital to protect the citizens of North Carolina against the fascist Democrat DA Nifong who fabricated evidence against Duke lacrosse players.
Kansas s the Supreme Court & legislature has become like the farmer’s house in Orweel’s fable, Animal Farm. All of the liberal ACLU fascist attorney-politicians like pro-choice Kathleen Sebelius & Pedro Ingogararay & conservative Christian fascist pro-life family value GOP legislators-attorneys like Brownback & Moran all claim to care about civil liberties, children & veterans. In reality the abortion & gay rights monopolize all of the political conversation so the wimpy news journalists do not have to report on easy to documented civil rights atrocities. The really prize bipartisan swine like lobbyists Bob Dole, former Kansas Governor Graves & Congressman Sam Glickman move on to Washington DC. If Dole really cared about the concerns & rights of common citizens, he would have a staff member e-mail me so I could send him documentation about the human rights atrocities by GOP Wichita judges & Democrat Nola Foulston against ordained Baptist minister Todd Wait or the Iowa disabled Air veteran, Joe Liddle, who has enough theological training to be an Assembly of God deacon. Free speech on the internet & e-mails like doles are very powerful weapons because it places us all only 2 degrees of separation from each other. McLennan should respond to Dole’s allegations, and Dole has to respond to me. After checking out my links, Bob Dole or any reader can goggle up the words “Amerdad” & kiakahahaha” and then contact Dole’s former Washington DC secretary, Teresa Neises, ( who is a genuine sweetheart) who serves with me on the peace & social justice committee of a large west side Catholic parish in Wichita. .
I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with sending a nasty e-mail to get the public’s attention even if it’s causes former Wichita Mayor Bob Knight heart palpitations. About the time that Knight had his heart problems requiring surgery, I wrote a Eagle blog entry and e-mailed it out to a 100 reporters, judges, politicians asking the Kansas Casino Commission to check out the criminal allegations that I made against one of Knight’s business partners in the MGM proposal for the Sumner County $500 million casino. I alleged that Wichita attorney, Ross Hollander (law partner of Steve Joseph, the attorney for abortionist, George Tiller) had suborned the perjury of Wichita Psychiatric Consultants psychologist, Alicia Landsverk who had bene pressured to cover up for the dishonesty & unethical behavior of her former business partner, Marc Quillen who is married to Marilyn Harp, the Executive Director of the Kansas Legal Services which is funded by the Supreme Court & the Kansas Bar Association).
The truth is a very powerful weapon. Who knows!! Maybe former Mayor Carlos Mayans and my state representative Mario Goico (former desert storm air force tanker pilot) will have the courage to speak out about the corruption in Wichita to demonstrate that they care about children & the civil rights of disabled air force veterans and to prove that they are not just wannabees looking for a KPERS pension or a government job. Given the sacrifices made by their Cuban parents to send them to a free country, I think that Carlos, Mario & Pedro should be ashamed of themselves for helping to maintain he code of silence.
To document yet another example how our constitutional rights are being destroyed by elitist, fascist nepotistic power couples who want to be the next Bob & Liddy or Bill & Hillary, I attached a copy of the recent Eagle article regarding the fascist Legislative Coordinating Council dominated by attorney-senators John Vrtil & Derek Schmidt and their puppet Senate President Steve Morris. The LCC wants to hire an outside law firm to replace former KU law school Dean Steve McAllister to advise the legislature on constitutional matters. Interestingly Steve’s wife, Suzanne Carey McAllister teaches family law as a faculty members of the KU law school faculty along with Attorney General Steve Six’s wife, Betsy, (who teaches lawyering) and fascist retired Topeka state district court judge Terry Bulloch (Montoy case) and Stan Hazlett, corrupt director of the Kansas Supreme Courts Office of Attorney Discipline Judicial Administration official (who both teach ethics) Last fall Suzanne Carey McAllister applied to be a justice on the Kansas Court of Appeals to the Kansas Bar Association’s Commission on Judicial Nominations chaired by Wichita attorney, Richard Hite. Given the systemic corruption & organized racketeering in the family law courts and case management system (designed in the 1990’s by presiding family law Judge James “Addiction” Beasley and case manager-attorney femi-Nazi, Kathy Kirk, who was the first Director of the Office of Judicial Administration’s Alternative Dispute Resolution section after being only 3 years out of law school, I would have thought that Suzanne & Steve might have discussed the corruption with John Vrtil & Derek Schmidt especially since Suzanne served on the Kansas Judicial Council’s family law advisory committee chaired by Wichita family law attorney, Charlie Harris.
Like a episode of “Girls Gone Wild” about 6 years ago the elitist nepotistic fascist female attorneys in Kansas started trying are trying to play catch up with the misogynistic sexual predator good old boys in black robes to destroy families. It’s all about power & greed. For more information check out the following websites:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/003/RipOff0003319.htm
http://www.kswomenattorneys.com/KWAA%20Newsletter%20Winter%202004.pdf
Go to this KWAA website to count the number of fascist female attorneys including Justice Carol Beier & her best friend Gaye Tibbets (wife of Wichita Eagle court reporter, Ron Sylvester, law partner of Richard Hite & executor director at the Kansas Appleseed foundation with fascist Foulston Seifkin attorney, Jack Focht) , Linda Elrod (Washburn Law School family law professor), Linda Parks (Wife of former Eagle editorial board editor – Randy Brown, Current Kansas Bar Association president & law partner with Gaye Tibbetts & Richard Hite) Kathy Kirk & Lynn Ward (Wichita divorce attorney & wife of Dale Ward - former managing partner at Hinkle Elkuri which represents the city of Wichita & the USD 259 school districts). The KWAA actual has an annual award service named after Janice Russell who actually nominated herself to Hite’s committee for a position on the Kansas Court of Appeals. Fortunately courageous bloggers in Johnson County have been successfully exposing Judge Russell’s unethical civil rights atrocities and Russell is now taking early retirement.
Two years ago former KU law school dean, Steve McAllister, was embroiled as a “player” with Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman John Vrtil in the soap opera called the Nuss Fuss involving unethical & illegal back channel communications between Kansas Supreme Court Justice Nuss, fascist governor Kathleen Sebellius (whose only job in the private sector was as a lobbyist for the Kansas Trial Attorneys Association) and President Steve Morris. I wonder if KU Law School Dean Steve McAllister was responsible for hiring retired Judge Terry Bullock & Stan Hazlett as the most qualified fascists to teach the KU law school ethics classes. I wonder if Steve McAllister was tryng to collect political ious from Kathleen Sebelius and the gangsters in the Kansas Bar Association so his wife could become an appellate judge. Fortunately before Suzanne applied to Hite’s committee last Fall, I had submitted documents last year when I testified before Vrtil’s committee and the House Committee on State & Federal Affairs ridiculing Nick Badgerow & Steve McAllister and several other elitist fascists at the Kansas Bar Association and the Washburn & Kansas University law schools. I assume that these documents are still in the state archives.
Kansas has criminal defamation laws so attorney Ross Hollander or psychologist Alicia Landsverk can either deny my allegations or ask Nola Foulston to file criminal charges against me. However the silence has been deafening. Considering that Stan Hazlet refused to discipline several Wichita attorneys in the Todd Wait scandal including Rachel Pirner Kansas Bar Association Board Member (wife of KAKE TV news director Dave Grant) I’m not going to submit complaints to Hazlett’s office until Hazlet is fired and the Joe Liddle & Todd Wait scandals are exposed by the national media. Considering that Roger Scurlock at the Behavioral Science Board waited 3 years to investigate credible allegations that Arlan & Linda Kaufman was sexually abusing mentally ill residents in his Newton Kansas group homes, I think I’ll wait until Roger is fired at the Behavioral Science Board before I submit any complaints.
The tide is quickly turning in Kansas as the two top fascists at the board of healing arts, Mark Stafford & Larry Buening, were forced to resign I think that the tide is definitely turning. If anyone is curious about why a west side family physician & rapist was only given a one week suspension, google up the words “Mark Stafford boha kiakahahaha” to read my previous blog entry. You can them read the articles and analysis written by the Topeka Capital Journal reporter, Tim Carpenter, who failed to give any credit to the Citizens Commission on Human Rights for putting pressure on the legislature.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1314081/psychiatrist_has_pushed_professional_boundaries/index.html
Too bad fascist AP reporter Joe Hanna has to spin the story to make everything about George Tiller & abortion by crediting the departures to pressure by pro-life opponents. From personal experience, I can state that “kingdom builders” Susan Wagle, Operation Rescue Cheryl Sullinger and KRAA Mark Gietzen all refuse to acknowledge the criminal acts of pro life judges like Sedgwick District Court Judges Mark Vining or James Fleetwood.
216.116.225.186/stories/040708/sta_265851555.shtml
l keep on sending out my e-mails challenging corrupt attorneys, judges, forensic psychologists & journalists to sue me for slander. I’ll encourage former Eagle publisher, Lou Heldman to follow Scott McClennan’s example to “bite the hand that fed him” by writing a book about the fascist code of silence in Kansas. I keep on trying to get a reaction or public denial from Senator John Vrtil by emailing his daughter’s law partners at the mega law Chicago firm to tell them know that Allison’s divorced parents, “Federal Judge Kathleen Vrtil and Senator Vrtil” refuse to do anything to reform the fascist, corrupt, nepotistic judiciary in Kansas. I don’t think a concerned citizen should have to wait to have an Institute of Government at University of Kansas named after him to have credibility to send out a nasty e-mail to get Bob Dole’s attention. The Good Lord knows that we can’t depend on fascist journalists like Ron Sylvester to report the truth. It might hurt his wife’s chances of becoming an appellate court judge.
Bill McKean kiakahahaha@yahoo.com 316 293-6079
http://www.iastatespj.org/people.html
Sylvester changing with the times
By Catherine Thomas
Greenlee School of Journalism and Communication
Out of Missouri State University emerged a passionate journalist who at the start of his career was involved in various levels of beat reporting.
But the job of being a newspaper reporter is changing rapidly in the 21st Century, and Ron Sylvester, 49, who covers legal affairs at the Wichita Eagle, is rolling with the punches.
Sylvester hopes to develop more Web-oriented skill to enhance his professional credentials.
“News rooms have been cutting back because the industry is moving more from print and broadcast to online delivery,” he said.
The Kansas journalist discuss covering courts online at the SPJ Region VII Conference in Ames, Iowa, on April 5.
Sylvester, who is the SPJ Region VII director, loves his job and he has been a “strong advocate” for open records, said Gaye Tibbets, his wife.
Around his professional career, he has a family of seven with whom he enjoys spending time. Gaye said he likes playing basketball with his kids, gardening, and she said that Sylvester is a very good cook.
The Wichita reporter received an honor from the Society of Professional Journalists as the top regional director in October 2007.
Posted on Sat, May. 31, 2008
Legislature to take bids for legal services
Associated Press
The Legislature is looking for a lawyer it can call its own.
Members of the Legislative Coordinating Council voted Thursday to take bids from people interested in providing legal services to the Legislature. Applications will be accepted through September and a decision made in November.
The legislative counsel position was created during a school finance lawsuit that resulted in the Kansas Supreme Court ordering lawmakers to spend additional money for public education. That led to a special legislative session in 2005.
The job has been vacant since Stephen McAllister, a University of Kansas law professor, resigned in early 2007 to serve as the state’s solicitor general in the attorney general’s office, assisting with important constitutional litigation.
“It would be in our best interests to have someone in a permanent position or on contract,” said Senate President Steve Morris, R-Hugoton.
House Minority Leader Dennis McKinney, D-Greensburg, was the only Legislative Coordinating Council member to vote against the proposal. He said it didn’t make sense to hire a lawyer earning $300 an hour while leaving state government jobs open because of budget limitations.
Morris said there was no pressing legal issue a legislative counsel would be expected to address. However, he said the person or firm hired to represent the Legislature wouldn’t be paid unless issues demanded attention.
© 2007 Wichita Eagle and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.kansas.com
“He was both. Sometimes you have to defend yourself.”
Hmmmmmmmm, I guess I don’t see that part in the Sermon on the Mount, Fleetwood.
Where does it say “turn the other cheek” unless you need to defend yourself?
I see WS Clark chooses to believe some scripture, but not others (again) just so he can try to attack a Christian.
WS Clark,
None of those passages is conclusive enough to make a declaration that Jesus was a pacifist.
You do not have to be a pacifist to accept and follow those things Jesus said.
Dear Dope:
The Sermon on the Mount was one part. Didn’t I say he was both?
Bill McKean:
Why not copy and paste Moby Dick and get it over with?
McKean - I lost count on the number of times you used the word “fascist” in your long, boring post.
Can you help me out and give us a total?
Thank you.
“None of those passages is conclusive enough to make a declaration that Jesus was a pacifist.”
So, if Jesus was not a pacifist, what was He and what does “turn the other cheek” mean?
Just curious.
“just so he can try to attack a Christian.”
How is it that “I am trying to attack a Christian” but challenging his claim that Jesus was not a pacifist?
Are we supposed to accept every claim that a “Christian” makes regarding the Bible and Jesus without question?
How is a question an attack?
Or are you a mind reader, Price?
Come on, clark. You seem unable to accept that He was both. That’s fine. Jesus was a pacifist who told us that “no one could come to the Father except through me”. Not very inclusive, eh?
WS
Jesus NEVER told us that we were to turn someone ELSE’s cheek, did He?
“Greater love has no man than he who would lay down his life for his brother” — hard to think of very many non-violent ways this would happen, huh?
Also, WS, Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in the sheeth, when confronted with soldiers in the Garden.
Jesus never told any of his disciples to get rid of their swords, did He?
“Not very inclusive, eh”
One of the many reasons that I am no longer a Christian.
“Greater love has no man than he who would lay down his life for his brother”
Is that a Biblical quote? If you think so, give us the chapter and verse.
“Jesus never told any of his disciples to get rid of their swords, did He?”
Nope, but they only had two between the thirteen of them - if He wasn’t a pacifist, shouldn’t He have told them all to get a sword?
And isn’t McClellan still saying that he does not believe Bush intentionally lied to the American people about the war?
Does Bush know the difference between a lie and the truth? Sociopathic personalities often don’t.
I don’t know if Jesus was a pacifist, but he was definitely a liberal, by today’s standards.
Dole is irrelevant. Nothing more than an obscure and forgotten personage from the past who no longer has any power.
“WSClark” asks –
“Greater love has no man than he who would lay down his life for his brother”
Is that a Biblical quote? If you think so, give us the chapter and verse.
Uhm, “WSClark?”
It’s John 15:13
Thank you, MH, but I truly did not recognize the verse.
See, even a non-Christian like me can admit that they did not know.
Perhaps I made A mistake by entering the phrase as posted into Google, rather than looking it up myself.
There are many different versions…. see below.
http://bible.cc/john/15-13.htm
“WSClark” –
Yeah, there are many translations, despite that Texas politician who said, during a debate on bilingual education: “If English was good enough for Jesus Christ it’s good enough for the children of Texas!”
So, a rabid GOP attack dog attacks anyone who dares tell the truth about his hero Bush. McClellen is no hero in my book - he should have spoken out YEARS ago. However it is rather fun watching the Bush-rats turn on each other.
(Too bad we don’t have folks on Capitol Hill willing to speak out like this. J.D. Pendry is a retired Marine Sergeant Major who writes for Random House. He is eloquent, and he seldom beats around the bush!)
“The Axis of Idiots”
Jimmy Carter, you are the father of the Islamic Nazi movement. You threw the Shah under the bus, welcomed the Ayatollah home, and then lacked the spine to confront the terrorists when they took our embassy and our people hostage. You’re the runner-in-chief.
Bill Clinton, you played ring around the Lewinsky while the terrorists were at war with us. You got us into a fight with them in Somalia and then you ran from it. Your weak-willed responses to the U.S.S. Cole and the First Trade Center Bombing and Our Embassy Bombings emboldened the killers. Each time you failed to respond adequately, they grew bolder, until 9/11/2001.
John Kerry, dishonesty is your most prominent attribute. You lied about American Soldiers in Vietnam. Your military service, like your life, is more fiction than fact. You’ve accused our military of terrorizing women and children in Iraq. You called Iraq the wrong war, wrong place, wrong time, the same words you used to describe Vietnam. You’re a fake. You want to run from Iraq and abandon the Iraqis to murderers just as you did the Vietnamese. Iraq, like Vietnam, is another war that you were for, before you were against it.
John Murtha, you said our military was broken. You said we can’t win militarily in Iraq. You accused United States Marines of cold-blooded murder without proof and said we should redeploy to Okinawa. Okinawa, John? And the Democrats call you their military expert! Are you sure you didn’t suffer a traumatic brain injury while you were off building your war hero resume? You’re a sad, pitiable, corrupt and washed up politician. You’re not a Marine, sir. You wouldn’t amount to a good pimple on a real Marine’s ass. You’re a phony and a disgrace. Run away, John.
Dick Durbin, you accused our Soldiers at Guantanamo of being Nazis, tenders of Soviet style gulags and as bad as the regime of Pol Pot, who murdered two million of his own people after your party abandoned Southeast Asia to the Communists. Now you want to abandon the Iraqis to the same fate. History was not a good teacher for you, was it? Lord help us! See Dick run.
Ted Kennedy, for days on end you held poster-sized pictures from Abu Ghraib in front of any available television camera. Al Jazeera quoted you saying that Iraqi’s torture chambers were open under new management. Did you see the news, Teddy? The Islamic Nazis demonstrated another beheading for you. If you truly supported our troops, you’d show the world poster-sized pictures of that atrocity and demand the annihilation of it. Your legislation stripping support from the South Vietnamese led to a communist victory there. You’re a bloated, drunken fool bent on repeating the same historical blunder that turned freedom-seeking people over to homicidal, genocidal maniacs. To paraphrase John Murtha, all while sitting on your wide, gin-soaked rear-end in Washington.
Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Carl Levine, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Russ Feingold, Hillary Clinton, Pat Leahy, Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, the Hollywood Leftist morons, et al, ad nauseam: Every time you stand in front of television cameras and broadcast to the Islamic Nazis that we went to war because our President lied, that the war is wrong and our Soldiers are torturers, that we should leave Iraq, you give the Islamic butchers - the same ones that tortured and mutilated American Soldiers - cause to think that we’ll run away again, and all they have to do is hang on a little longer. It is inevitable that we, the infidels, will have to defeat the Islamic jihadists. Better to do it now on their turf, than later on ours after they have gained both strength and momentum.
American news media, the New York Times particularly: Each time you publish stories about national defense secrets and our intelligence gathering methods, you become one united with the sub-human pieces of camel dung that torture and mutilate the bodies of American Soldiers. You can’t strike up the courage to publish cartoons, but you can help Al Qaeda destroy my country. Actually, you are more dangerous to us than Al Qaeda is. Think about that each time you face Mecca to admire your Pulitzer..
You are America’s “AXIS OF IDIOTS.” Your Collective Stupidity will destroy us. Self-serving politics and terrorist-abetting news scoops are more important to you than our national security or the lives of innocent civilians and Soldiers. It bothers you that defending ourselves gets in the way of your elitist sport of politics and your ignorant editorializing. There is as much blood on your hands as is on the hands of murdering terrorists. Don’t ever doubt that. Your frolics will only serve to extend this war as they extended Vietnam. If you want our Soldiers home as you claim, knock off the crap and try supporting your country ahead of supporting your silly political aims and aiding our enemies.
Yes, I’m questioning your patriotism. Your loyalty ends with self. I’m also questioning why you’re stealing air that decent Americans could be breathing. You don’t deserve the protection of our men and women in uniform. You need to run away from this war, this country. Leave the war to the people who have the will to see it through and the country to people who are willing to defend it.
No, Mr. President, you don’t get off the hook, either. Our country has two enemies: Those who want to destroy us from the outside and those who attempt it from within. Your Soldiers are dealing with the outside force. It’s your obligation to support them by confronting the AXIS OF IDIOTS.
America must hear it from you that these self-centered people are harming our country, a betting the enemy and endangering our safety. Well up a little anger, please, and channel it toward the appropriate target. You must prosecute those who leak national security secrets to the media. You must prosecute those in the media who knowingly publish those secrets.
Our Soldiers need you to confront the enemy that they cannot. They need you to do it now.
Semper Fi,
J. D. Pendry - Sergeant Major, USMC, Retired
Well put Sergeant Major. :)
The Shah was a fascist dictator installed by the US CIA. His repressive rules spawned the islamic fundamentalism that now grips Iran; just as the Soviet oppression in Afghanistan helped to incubate the beginnings of the Taliban.
Those people, like “J. D. Pendry - Sergeant Major, USMC, Retired” above, who believe that the US can rule the world by force are seriousl mistaken. Empires held together my military might are destined to fall.
WS Clark,
Your question was hardly just a question. It was an accusation disguised as a question.
I am no mind reader, I understand both logic and the art of argument in a discussion.
I simply find it sad and ironic that people like you love to quote Jesus when it suits you while trying to prove a Christian wrong or make them look bad, but you ignore most everything else Jesus said.
false Ben
Islamic fundamentalism was not spawned in Iran by the Shah of Iran. Islamic fundamentalism has existed for hundreds of years.
The Shah got a bit greedy and did away with the government. Then, after the Shah became ill, the Prime Minister took over and invited Khomeini to start up a ‘church’ government with free elections.
Khomeini rejected every idea and became a dictator of sorts just like the Shah. Islamic fundamentalists are extreme radicals and took advantage of the opportunity.
People like Ben are the sheep of the world following ‘goats’ Democratic politicians that will lead them to slaughter.
Being weak and passive is not a way to lead.
Ben,
And people like you who think that any military action is wrong are the ones who encourage others to fight because of your weakness.
“It was an accusation disguised as a question.”
Sorry, Price, but you don’t know a God Damned thing about the intent behind my questions. It was a direct and honest question - how do you square “Jesus was not a pacifist” with “turn the other cheek?”
Without a doubt, you are a self-important, self-righteous son of a bitch, totally lacking in any semblance of social skills.
I asked an honest question and you claim to know my intent.
………………….. and the horse you rode in on.
How many civilians did you kill Nathan?
KansasNative
Posted June 1, 2008 at 8:38 pm | Permalink
How many civilians did you kill Nathan?
—————————
You progressive Libs want to reign in the resident slug.
How ’bout you Reguliar? Kill any civilians in the time you supposedly were in the military?
“The Shah was a fascist dictator installed by the US CIA. His repressive rules spawned the islamic fundamentalism that now grips Iran”
WRONG!!!
The Shah promoted a free and progressive society relative to that area of the world, and the fascist Islamics hated that, just as they hate our relatively free society.
‘During the Shah’s reign, Iran celebrated 2,500 years of continuous monarchy since the founding of the Persian Empire by Cyrus the Great. His White Revolution, a series of economic and social reforms intended to transform Iran into a global power, succeeded in modernizing the nation..
While a Muslim himself, the Shah gradually lost support from the great Shi’a clergy of Iran, particularly due to his strong policy of Westernization and recognition of Israel’
My my. I go on vacation for 10 days and miss all the fun. The gloves have come off. We have the resident slug, the sheep, those in need of remidial training, and an axis of idiots. The conversations seem very deep, philosophical, reaking of discipline and study. I wonder if I can keep up after 10 days.
KansasNative,
I don’t know who you are are, but you are obviously a coward and a lowlife.
You wouldn’t dare say such things to anyone’s face.
WS Clark,
If the only thing that Jesus was ever recorded as saying was to turn the other cheek, then you might have a point.
When you read EVERYTHING that Jesus said in the Bible and all of everything else in the Bible, there is nothing to show that Jesus was a Pacifist.
Your asinine question about why only two swords instead of more doesn’t support your case either.
The question you should be asking yourself is why would a Pacifist allow them to carry any swords at all?
I have plenty of social skills. For someone who routinely uses vulgar language here, you look rather stupid saying I am lacking in the social skills.
I forget though, you can be as vulgar as you want because you are from Detroit….
KansasNative,
What does it matter?
Interesting. I find it interesting that certain folks here judge that McClellan is telling the “truth”. Of course, they have no idea whether he is or not.
They should say that he is saying the things that they want to hear.
“I have plenty of social skills.”
Jeez, you must have stashed them in your sock drawer - they certainly don’t show here.
“When you read EVERYTHING that Jesus said in the Bible and all of everything else in the Bible, there is nothing to show that Jesus was a Pacifist.”
Really? So what was He? A barroom brawler? A street fighter? A radical revolutionary looking to overthrow the Roman Empire?
If He wasn’t a pacifist, then what was the message He was sending?
“Your asinine question about why only two swords instead of more doesn’t support your case either.”
That wasn’t my question, shithead, it was from an article.
“For someone who routinely uses vulgar language here, you look rather stupid saying I am lacking in the social skills.”
I have seen rabid skunks with better social skills than you, Price.
It goes to the heart of the matter. A person who chooses to kill civilians has NO moral authority whatsoever.
What such a person thinks about the bible or Christianity is no longer of any consequence.
We may as well ask Dennis Rader his opinion of morality.
You have chosen not to answer and to me THAT is an answer.
WS Clark,
Not being a pacifist doesn’t then make you the complete opposite.
It is not one extreme or the other as you ignorantly ask me if he was any of the things you did.
Jesus is the son of God, our Savior. He was sent to die for our sins. His was a message of love and hope, not of pacifism. He taught that we should help others not lay down and die never defending ourselves as a pacifist would.
I saw McClellan on Russerts show.
He seemed very credible to me.
The idea he did this for money? Hogwash!
In speaking out, he has burned his bridges with the cons. And he is not an old man.
He COULD have lived very comfortably, probably MORE comfortably, had he stayed silent. After this book? What’s he got?
As with others before, we are finding that this administration is so very awful that SOME cons just don’t have the stomach for it.
“He taught that we should help others not lay down and die never defending ourselves as a pacifist would.”
So, God’s Own Marine, what did Jesus mean in the Sermon on the Mount - turn the other cheek or fight back and kill?
Simple question - honestly asked, despite your accusations.
Ignore KansasNative.
Let it die on the vine.
KansasNative,
Your question was not whether or not I chose to kill civilians at all.
Your question was simply if I had.
There is a difference.
Sometimes, civilians tragically get caught in the line of fire or are collateral damage while trying to destroy an enemy who is hiding amoungst them.
Either way, perhaps it is merely your opinion that someone who would choose to kill civilians has no moral authority, but you have yet to prove that.
Would you say that Truman had no moral authority by choosing to kill civilians by dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagaski?
I choose not to answer the question, because it has no bearing on the discussion.
In your little world, you don’t value anything I say regarless of if I have killed civilians or not.
He was not a pacifist. Jesus was a peace lover who was not afraid to use force when it was necessary. What about when he cleared the temple?
John 2:12 - 16
12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!”
WS Clark,
Your question is a false dilema.
You are giving me an either/or question when there are more than the two choices you present.
Perhaps it was asked honestly, but still ignorantly.
“So, God’s Own Marine, what did Jesus mean in the Sermon on the Mount - turn the other cheek or fight back and kill?
Simple question - honestly asked, despite your accusations.”
The biblical concept of “turning the other cheek” has also been significantly affected by translational imprecision. Thus, many people attempting to live by Christian mandate have incorrectly (and dangerously!) felt that they were obliged to allow aggressors to have free rein in brutalizing them or their loved-ones because they [the victims] are commanded to “turn the other cheek” to those who “strike” (or “smite” KJV) them, e.g.,
Matthew 5:39
“…If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (NIV)
However…
The more precise translation of the Greek verb in question as slap instead of “strike” removes the confusion. (The verb in question is “rapizw” referring to a “hand slap” [to the face] which is intended to embarrass or provoke, but not to harm)
Thus, one may “strike” (or “smite”) another with anything from a wet noodle (silly) to a lead pipe, (likely fatal) however, the greek word used here clearly means a mere “slap” as just described. Thus, by “turning the other cheek,” a Christian is simply demonstrating self-control under provocation, in a situation which, very likely, is NOT life-threatening. He is NOT, as some imagine, giving free rein to unchecked mayhem to be committed upon himself or his loved-ones.
Interestingly, among modern Greeks, the word under consideration carries the same precise meaning today that it did 2000 years ago. We may thereby assume that Greeks have not had nearly the interpretive difficulty with “turning the other cheek” as the rest of the world has! (in theory…)
WS Clark,
Also, you added a thinly veiled insult (ad hominem logical fallacy) to your question by calling me:
“God’s Own Marine”
So I take it back, there was nothing honest about your question at all.
“Perhaps it was asked honestly, but still ignorantly.”
As previously stated, no social skills on the part of Mr. Price.
And…………………………
“You are giving me an either/or question when there are more than the two choices you present.”
No, I didn’t. The question was as follows…..
“what did Jesus mean in the Sermon on the Mount - turn the other cheek or fight back and kill?”
Plenty of room there for nuance - so answer please?
What was Jesus’ philosophy regarding violence?
“So I take it back, there was nothing honest about your question at all.”
Jeez, Price, I thought you would be honored by the title.
But your feigned indignity doesn’t change the question.
“What about when he cleared the temple?”
Did He attack people or did He focus His anger on inanimate objects?
Big difference.
WS I see you are still hanging on telling others how great you are, how noble, how socially adept and all of the time not one word of truth. A scholar on the Bible, a scholar on the truth of McCellan. Wow, is there anything you aren’t an expert on?
How about transgenders and transvestites being able to use either the mens or womens bathrooms. Never happen huh? Except when I showed you that it did happen and then the name calling started.
You have zilch credibility and no social skills with that mouth of yours.
WS Clark,
Let me point it out to you Big Purple Dino Style:
“what did Jesus mean in the Sermon on the Mount turn the other cheek…”
===========> “…or…” <===========
“…fight back and kill?”
You clearly gave me an either/or question. I am not sure I can break it down much more than that.
Nathaniel: You bring up an interesting point. Perhaps someone could be guilty of a false dilema. Given that, I ask, what do you take from reading your sermon on the mount regarding fighting, placating, or any amalgm of both?
“Wow, is there anything you aren’t an expert on?”
Nope. Would you like me to perform a brain transplant on you - we could probably use a chimp brain and get your IQ up to 45.
Of course, I am not a brain surgeon, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
“I am not sure I can break it down much more than that.”
Okay, Price, give us the shades of grey without trying to weasel out of an answer……
On a scale of one to one hundred, one being a pacifist and one hundred being Luca Brasi, what was Christ?
Although scripture does not have a blow by blow WS, it states that Jesus drove everyone out of the temple. With a weapon.
I think that you could lose your pacifist license for that kind of thing.
WSClark:
Thanks for taking the time to read my blog posts. to prove that you’re not a troll, set up an anonymous e-mail on yahoo & e-mail me. I send you the same scanned documents that I have sent to the Eagle & the topeka Capital journal aobut the FASCISM & CRIMINAL acts in Wichita involving Todd Wait & Joe Liddle. I already ahve a few people asking for them.
My blog entries are like messages in a bottle that I cast into cyberspace that for lower level reporters at the Eagle & the younger district judges to demand changes. I think an An Eagle reporter would around a dead body in front of the courthouse to go inside to ask Nola Fouslton whether or not the story should be reported.
I’ll make a prediction that Dave Grant the news director at KAKE TV will be resigning soon due to his wife, Rachel Priner’s criminal acts involving Todd Wait. Gee whiz you think that Dave would have enough guts to defend his wive’s honor by suing me for slander or having me arrested for criminal defamation. However Dave is just pimping out his attorney-wifes like former KU law school dean Steve McAllsiter (Suzanne Carey McAllister) Randy Brown (KBA president & Hite Fanning Honeyman partner - Linda Parks) & Ron Sylvester (Gaye Tibbetts - Hite Fanning Honeyman partner & Kansas Appleseed foundation Executive Duirector Gaye Tibbetts) We get the government that we deserve.
Bill mcKean kiakahahaha@yahoo.com 293-6079
WSClark:
Thanks for taking the time to read my blog posts. to prove that you’re not a troll, set up an anonymous e-mail on yahoo & e-mail me. I send you the same scanned documents that I have sent to the Eagle & the topeka Capital journal aobut the FASCISM & CRIMINAL acts in Wichita involving Todd Wait & Joe Liddle. I already ahve a few people asking for them.
My blog entries are like messages in a bottle that I cast into cyberspace that for lower level reporters at the Eagle & the younger district judges to demand changes. I think an An Eagle reporter would around a dead body in front of the courthouse to go inside to ask Nola Fouslton whether or not the story should be reported.
I’ll make a prediction that Dave Grant the news director at KAKE TV will be resigning soon due to his wife, Rachel Priner’s criminal acts involving Todd Wait. Gee whiz you think that Dave would have enough guts to defend his wive’s honor by suing me for slander or having me arrested for criminal defamation. However Dave is just pimping out his attorney-wifes like former KU law school dean Steve McAllsiter (Suzanne Carey McAllister) Randy Brown (KBA president & Hite Fanning Honeyman partner - Linda Parks) & Ron Sylvester (Gaye Tibbetts - Hite Fanning Honeyman partner & Kansas Appleseed foundation Executive Duirector Gaye Tibbetts) We get the government that we deserve.
Bill mcKean kiakahahaha@yahoo.com 293-6079
“With a weapon.”
What weapon?
WSClark:
Thanks for taking the time to read my blog posts. to prove that you’re not a troll, set up an anonymous e-mail on yahoo & e-mail me. I send you the same scanned documents that I have sent to the Eagle & the Topeka Capital journal aobut the FASCISM & CRIMINAL acts in Wichita involving Todd Wait & Joe Liddle. I already ahve a few people asking for them.
My blog entries are like messages in a bottle that I cast into cyberspace that for lower level reporters at the Eagle & the younger district judges to demand changes. I think an An Eagle reporter would around a dead body in front of the courthouse to go inside to ask Nola Fouslton whether or not the story should be reported. I’ll make a prediction that Dave Grant the news director at KAKE TV will be resigning soon due to his wife criminal acts involving Todd Wait. I’ll be sure to remind you that
I told you so”
We get the government that we deserve.
Bill mcKean kiakahahaha@yahoo.com 293-6079
Boxlock
Posted June 1, 2008 at 9:14 pm | Permalink
The more precise translation of the Greek verb in question as slap instead of “strike” removes the confusion. (The verb in question is “rapizw” referring to a “hand slap” [to the face] which is intended to embarrass or provoke, but not to harm)
—
Debatable, apparently.
For example, see:
‘The verb rapizw in #Mt 26:67 originally meant to smite with a rod. In late writers it comes to mean to slap the face with the palm of the hands. [not M 5:39; noted] The same thing is true of the substantive rapisma used here. A papyrus of the sixth century A.D. uses it in the sense of a scar on the face as the result of a blow. It is in the instrumental case here. “They caught him with blows,” Swete suggests for the unusual elabon in this sense. “With rods” is, of course, possible as the lictors carried rods. At any rate it was a gross indignity.’
http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertmar14.html
Also:
Kata: rapizw rhapizo
Pengucapan: hrap-id’-zo
Asal Kata: from a derivative of a primary rhepo (to let fall, “rap”)
Sumber:
Jenis Kata: v
Dalam AV: smite 1, smite with the palm of (one’s) hand 1
Jumlah: 2
Definisi:
1) to smite with a rod or staff
2) to smite in the face with the palm of the hand, to box the ear
http://sabda.org/sabdaweb/tools/lexicon/?w=4474
“no social skills with that mouth of yours.”
Before we do that brain transplant, Okie-Dope, we will first have to clear out your brain pan - can you recommend a good septic tank pumping company?
With a rope he ran the money changers out. That was his weapon of choice. Probably no rifles laying around.
Your feeble point is?
Did you get you one of them chimp brains? it sounds like it.
Stop and think about this folks, and about the admonition to turn the other cheek.
To be struck on the right cheek it would require the person doing the striking, if a right handed person which approx. 85% of us are, to strike using the BACK of the right hand.
Also, under the Torah law of the time to strike to intentionally hurt or kill could easily get you killed as legal punishment. To strike with the back of the hand in their society was an INSULT only, not a serious aggressive attack. This is fact not conjecture. To turn the other cheek was also an insult in return, in that it showed that the person being struck was not losing control, as the person doing the striking had, and that the person turning the other cheek was in a superior position. This was an embarrassment to the person doing the striking. It was both an admonition to not escalate the conflict, but also not to be passive to the point of harm or being controlled.
Jesus was anything but passive, he was/is fully man and fully GOD.