The Massachusetts Supreme Court ruling in 2003 striking down the state’s gay-marriage ban arguably helped re-elect President Bush. Fired-up social conservatives, spurred on by GOP political operatives, put gay-marriage amendments on the ballots in 11 states in November 2004, helping drive voter turnout in those states and elsewhere. In such battleground states as Ohio, it likely was the difference between Bush winning and losing.
So how will Thursday’s California Supreme Court ruling play out? It certainly won’t have as big an impact, as only three states are expected to have the issue on the ballot — California, Arizona and Florida. And though John McCain supports such state amendments, he doesn’t support a federal gay-marriage ban, which rankles many social conservatives. Also, pocketbook issues and Iraq are more important to most voters this election than social issues. Still, McCain and the GOP likely will exploit the ruling as another example of “activist judges.”
395 Comments
Wonder if Phillip has been reading us today?
Activist judges were Republican judges, by the way.
I sure wish Phillip would choose an ID and participate in the forum. We could give him the ID, WonderboyRed?
LOL.
None of us would ever have to know what nic he’d post under :D.
Uh, Phillip?
“The Massachusetts Supreme Court ruling in 2003 striking down the state’s gay-marriage ban arguably helped re-elect President Bush.”
No.
It was kkkarl rove’s USE of the issue as a wedge that helped re-elect the preznit.
They were not just “spurred on” by the GOP. They were turned into a hateful mob.
And really, is there any serious question that the GOP will work that strategy again?
Of course they will. The only question is, will the snake handlers and the ignorant fall for it.
Again.
Look, over there, a bright and shiny object!
And btw, has hagee apoligized to the gay community for saying they were responsible for Katrina?
He sounds more like phred phelps and terry fox and joe wright every day.
No WONDER the repukes sport wood every time he opens his mouth for more gay bashing.
(crickets chirping)
So.. hagee has NOT apoligized for saying gays are responsible for Katrina?
Color me shocked. I guess I thought since he apologized to the catholic church for being the great whore, he might have had a little remorse about what he’s said about gays.
I’m such a silly rabbit….
Being a republican preacher means never having to say you are sorry to the gay community.
Funny though, obama wont be able to use that. I mean, since his postion on gay marriage is EXACTLY the same has mcsame’s.
If only the government did not license marriage in the first place. Then this would not be an issue.
Adults do not need permission to enter into a relationship. The entire concept of marriage licensing is against freedom of association in my opinion.
Get with the program Pmom. They are only act-ee-vist judges when they rule against republicans.
Otherwise? They are paragons of virtue.
IOKIYAAR
The GOP is so filled with hate these days it may be difficult to get them focused on who just to hate. The GOP voted against Mother’s Day because they hate moms, they clearly hate marriage and gays, and they certainly hate immigrants provided they have brown skin, and they really hate veterans.
ksfarmgrrl,
Indeed. What’s been funny is Hagee’s retraction of the anti-Catholic remarks–remarks that folks like outlander and Econ101 didn’t have any problem with when first he uttered them. Dear Wingnuts: if the remarks weren’t anti-Catholic, why did Hagee feel the need to say that he now no longer believes them and wants to take them back?
As usual, reactionaries, you went on the attack before using your brains. Funny thing, that.
As to the topic at hand, as is often the case, the Rudepundit gives an excellent reading of the Justices’ decision.
rudepundit.blogspot.com
Coming from a center-right court, this is a very big deal. The fact that the Fundos are going for a ballot initiative come Fall isn’t going to going to have the magnifying effect that the Massachusets decision did in 2004; all the the true believers Fundo mouth-breathers hate Repukes even more than they hate gay folks.
And let me say, personally, how happy this ruling makes me. Coming out of California, it is appropriately seismic that common sense and common decency is bubbling up from the states. The nutzoid Fundo power grab has seriously overreached, and people are sick to death of it.
Proudman, the problem isnt association or marriage. The problem is with all the 1000 benefits associated WITH marriage. And the fact that such benefits are denied to “civil unions”. They ONLY go to “marriage”
And if you read the decision, the BIGGEST blow to obama and mcsame is that it singled out “civil unions” as being… wait for it… separate but UNequal. That point is flying under the radar now. It was the last refuge of bigots, and now? It’s gone.
So.. the cop out of “civil unions” isnt going to work. It’s marriage or nothing.
Of course, as you note, the smart thing would be for all the benefits of marriage to go to civil unions.
But then, that’s not REALLY what the snake handlers want. They want SPECIAL rights and treatment for their realtionships.
Ours? Not so much. This is ALL about straight marriage being legally superior to gay marriage. And a lot of cons cant stand the thought that our love and relationships are JUST as valid and valuable as theirs.
Crabs and buckets and all.
I have to wonder why there is so much fear of ‘gay marriage’; having been married for 37 years I have never worried about some gay couple breaking that up. Of course, all those Republicans with their multiple marriages/divorces seem perfectly happy to cast stones.
And the fact that such benefits are denied to “civil unions”. They ONLY go to “marriage”
Ksfg - which is why I would do away with marriage altogether and replace it with “union” that would carry with it ALL of the legal/civil aspects of “marriage”
“all the the true believers Fundo mouth-breathers hate Repukes even more than they hate gay folks.”
um, sorry CF, I disagree with that. Gays are STILL the preferred target for their hate.
And.. with all due respect, it nullifies obama’s postion on gay marriage just like mcsame’s.
Brings to mind the scene in Blazing Saddles where he says “OK we’ll take the WOPs and the N*** but we DONT want the IRISH!”
Gee, I wonder what mcclurkin has to say about this? Or kirbyjon caldwell?
Or terry, joe and fred.
terry be kinda quiet on this, no?
Thank you for your support, CF.
“Ksfg - which is why I would do away with marriage altogether and replace it with “union” that would carry with it ALL of the legal/civil aspects of “marriage””
Ben, I have no problem with that, but the devil will be ice skating before the straight folks agree to marriage equality, no matter WHAT you call it.
Which is why I posted this:
“This is ALL about straight marriage being legally superior to gay marriage. And a lot of cons cant stand the thought that our love and relationships are JUST as valid and valuable as theirs.”
They can be all for “civil unions” as long as it is NOT equal to theirs.
And that is the obama position AND the mcsame position.
No doubt that the timing of the ruling makes it inevitable this will be turned into an election issue.
This court’s ruling illustrates the importance of the power to appoint judges.
“The nutzoid Fundo power grab has seriously overreached, and people are sick to death of it.”
That may be true, CF, and I hope it goes from your lips to god’s ears.
But.. the one thing they ALL agree on is that they hate the eeeeeviiiiil gays.
Hagee said that kfg?
Dang, maybe I owe cosmos an apology. It wasn’t the Sierra Club responsible for the flooding of New Orleans, the fault belongs to the Gays!
(dodges pitchfork and ax thrown by kfg)
“No doubt that the timing of the ruling makes it inevitable this will be turned into an election issue.”
Uh, no outie. It’s not the timing.
It’s the REPUBLICANS that will make it an issue. Just like in 2004.
Be clear on the cause and effect. The ruling HAS no effect on the election.
But how folks USE the ruling will.
And if I were a goper, I’d be SHOUTING that obama has the same position on gay marriage as mcsame.
Except, you probably wont drown out the obama folks saying the same thing. “I’m no worse than mcsame”.
Now there’s a slogan to be proud of. Hope and change indeed. No hope and no change for gay folks from obama, now that his separate but equal “civil unions” dodge has been taken from him.
Yes reg, he did say it.
And so did jerry falwell.
Pat Robertson said we were responsible for 9/11 too.
I only WISH we had that much power….
Marga Gomez said one time that people say they wont come out to their Dads because it would give them a heart attack and kill them.
She mused that “wouldnt it be great if we had that much power? I mean, if a mugger came up behind us, we could just say “I’m gay” and they would fall over dead with a heart attack”.
hehehhheheehehheh.
And did I mention that this ruling invalidates BOTH mcsame and obama’s positions on gay marriage?
heheheheheheheheheheheheh.
Has obama issued a response to this ruling?
Has mcsame?
cue crickets…
Ben, I finally got an answer about Hagee.
You see my family members in Mississippi, although heterosexual and living in another state entirely, were hit by Katrina because he used Shrimp as bait to catch Flounder. You know the old hootnanny about Leviticus 11:9. Godhatesshrimp.com, blah blah blah.
Apparantly, Hagee rebuked Uncle Frank on that and Frank didn’t repent.
Ok, I will be nice now. I will ration myself to one example of “gratuitously demagoguing religion” per day.
“but the devil will be ice skating before the straight folks agree to marriage equality,”
Not ALL straight folks. Like I said, my wife and I do not feel threatened. Of course, what do we know. We’ve only been married ONCE - unlike so many in the ‘family values’ crowd!
NPR will replay the Hagee interview this evening in which he said ksfg flooded New Orleans. Bad girl ksfg!
““but the devil will be ice skating before the straight folks agree to marriage equality,”
I know Ben, not all.
Just more than seventy percent of them in Kansas.
But thank you for your support and your wife’s support.
Hee hee hee!
The last time I was in N.O, I did a LOT of things I dont remember, but I dont think flooding was among them. Maybe so, but I think I was too busy destroying the marriages of straight people.
I’m not much good at multitasking.
KFG. Were you ever in Hattiesburg MS? If so, you owe us $20,000 in Katrina damage by gum.
Good point VET. And while we are at it - ksfg, ever been out in Los Angeles. You owe me for some earthquake damage!
KFG,
This may not be the right thread, but wanted to thank you for the kind words you have said about me lately. I am sure I don’t desersve them, but thank you any way.
I wish also to apologize for the rude things I have said to Phillip Brownlee in email exchanges we’ve recently had.
I believe that the religious dogma that one sees here on a regular basis should definitely continue, because I know those efforts do so much for converting people to that enlighened viewpoint.
Please, Chas, even Christ - the human part of him any way, would want to tell some of the jokers here to STFU. And He would not mean standing in the corner.
Just to clarify: I chose to leave here - no one made me. A question I kept asking myself was “would I hang around these folks in real life?” I am pretty sure for the growing majority, I would not.
As far as Regular having his life threatened - that raises the existential question brought up in the WOW South Park episode “How can you kill someone who doesn’t have a life.” Meeting James was a liberating experience for me and an important part of making the decision about posting here.
May read sometimes, but won’t be posting. Good luck to you all.
Have errands to run and bills to pay. I am grateful for my ability to meet those obligations, as well as my ability to pay taxes.
Seems the old knee-jerk reaction of the Redneck Conservative ’50’s South have survived nearly intact but in a different location. You can spot it instantly by mentioning equal rights for gay citizens and watching bigots wrists immediatly jerk upwards as they propose a “separate but equal” marriage!
They’ve even recycled the old rhetoric, substituting the word “Fags” for “Nigras.” The rest is identical to their Daddy’s rants, right down to the “Let’s get our sheets on and go hang a few of those uppity fags, boys, we have to protect our womenfolk from these lusting animals!”
Same old bigots, with a politically safer target!
Y’know, “ksfarmgrrl” –
My personal view of gay marriage is probably not helpful to your cause because I just don’t get how anyone could object to it.
It’s sort of like antisemitism. I guess I know it exists but I can’t for the life of me understand why.
I can argue a lot of issues when I realize there’s something rational about the other guy’s point-of-view. But when all they offer is sheer idiocy, I’m at a loss.
I can sort of understand where a racist is coming from. “They look different.” It’s irrational, but I can sort of see where they’re coming from. “They fuc# different” seems like a so “it’s not anyone else’s business” issue I’m just incapable of understanding how anyone could object to it.
There’s probably some religious cult that’s convinced that anyone left-handed is “possessed by the devil” or somesuch. I can’t argue with those people, either, because whatever their fervent bigotry is based on, it’s beyond my scope of comprehension.
It’s like entering into an argument with someone who believes in a Flat Earth. They’re so wrong on the basics, it’s futile to even try to engage them in a rational, scientific discussion.
South Park…
Yeah Steven Davis…
South Park must be the key for internal reflection and guidance on moral issues.
South Park 1?
Ten Commandments 0?
Steven, you more than deserve kind words.
I would certainly hang out with you in real life.
I’d cook for ya too!
Hee hee heee….
I drank an ocean of beer with the city manager and the economic development director in Hattiesburg one time. But that unfortunate incident predated Katrina.
Same with my misspent time in LA. It predated Katrina as well.
I was lucky to travel the country on AT&T’s and CWA’s dime!
Hee hee hee…. But the boys in Hattiesburg did pick up the tab, like good southern gentlemen.
And so did the Parish President in Breaux Bridge, LA.
Sometimes, it’s good to be a woman
PS. When conservatives talk about Civil Unions for gay people, be careful to note their position on Unionism hasn’t changed a bit!
Dang KFG. I thought I was going to be able to settle for Brett Favre’s autograph and we could call it even.
LLTVET, HA!
The University of Southern Mississippi used to be the ONLY university to offer a masters in economic development.
And my ex got her M.Ed from there.
ksfarmgrrl
Posted May 16, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Permalink
Hee hee heee….
I drank an ocean of beer with the city manager and the economic development director in Hattiesburg one time. But that unfortunate incident predated Katrina.
Same with my misspent time in LA. It predated Katrina as well.
I was lucky to travel the country on AT&T’s and CWA’s dime!
—————————
Hmmm, why did that scene in the first Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark) pop into my mind where Rene Belloq (the French Archaelogists) and Marion Ravenwood are having a drinking contest on Belloq’s family label?
(envisions the Hattiesburg city manager and kfg draped over a table with several bottles on the floor.
Oh, and if this ruling is allowed to stand?
It puts an end to ALL discrimination against gay folks. Not just marriage. So a bassackwards state like kansas wont HAVE to pass a bill that makes it illegal to fire someone for being gay.
“Furthermore, in contrast to earlier times, our state now recognizes that an individual’s capacity to establish a loving and long-term committed relationship with another person and responsibly to care for and raise children does not depend upon the individual’s sexual orientation, and, more generally, that an individual’s sexual orientation — like a person’s race or gender — does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.”
Take THAT wakeeney city council and trego county commissioners! It’s too late to help me, but they wont be able to treat anyone else that way.
And, in a surprising bit of voter fluffing, I should note that every swinging elected official who voted against my board of directors, with the exception of two, are out of office.
One did not see re-election, one died, and two are up for election for the first time this year.
And they have good opposition.
“(envisions the Hattiesburg city manager and kfg draped over a table with several bottles on the floor.”
hee hee hee reg!
Except I was still standing. HE was heaving his guts out in the bathroom before being carried home by his buddies….
Whatever will lance kinzer, tim huelskamp and jan pauls run on next?
Its exactly this kind of nonsense that makes me not a conservative/republican. they say they support freedom/less government until someone wants to exercise that freedom then their all for the government squashing it.
Hard to say, just today I watched an interview with a I believe he is a Senator Pierce in the past when I saw him he was a strict Neo-Con. He as much said that the GOP needed to throw the Religious right under the bus and stay away from them for the good of the party.
that A-I thing keeps biting me in the butt! sorry
It’s similar to the “States Rights” argument a few years back. That’s all fine and well until California passes medical marijuana or Oregan passes assisted suicide.
And once again, Steven leaves insulting someone…
I suppose I am the only one to see the irony of the celebrated “make the blog a better place” poster leave like this?
“ksfarmgrrl
Posted May 16, 2008 at 2:14 pm | Permalink
Oh, and if this ruling is allowed to stand?
It puts an end to ALL discrimination against gay folks. Not just marriage. So a bassackwards state like kansas wont HAVE to pass a bill that makes it illegal to fire someone for being gay.”
Umm. A bit early, don;t you think? This was a California Supreme Court ruling , which only affects California. Whether or not it ever has a national effect, by ruling, is yet to be seen. I see a long, arduous trail before that happens. First to a ruling in the federal courts, then to the 10th circuit, then to SCOTUS. ANd that only if they agree.
But hey, for now…….Californians that wish to can rejoice in their newly acknowledged right.
KsFrmGrrl–
“And.. with all due respect, it nullifies obama’s postion on gay marriage just like mcsame’s.”
So, you’re saying by leaving Hillary out, that she’s on record in favor of gay-marriage?
I hadn’t heard that . . .
LJ, was there some part of “if this ruling stands” that was unclear?
Captain, Hillary is not going to be the nominee. Why would anyone care what her stand on gay marriage is?
Besides, I posted her stance last night.
I found this on another blog. I hope some of you will help out.
“I challenge you to match my donation to the Human Rights Campaign California Marriage PAC.
I donated $50 yesterday so they can keep up the fight to make this decision stick, who can join me?
The California Supreme Court just handed down a favorable ruling on same-sex marriage. Meanwhile, our right-wing opponents are building a $10 million war chest for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage in California. HRC is a partner of Equality for All, the coalition working to defeat the marriage ban.
HRC has set up a special fund – the HRC California Marriage PAC – to direct 100% of your contribution today to the fight against the anti-marriage ballot initiative in California. HRC is a member of Equality for All, the coalition working to defeat the marriage ban, and these funds will support the coalition’s efforts.
Please donate generously today.”
https://secure.ga3.org/03/ca_marriage_pac
do it just to piss off terry, joe and phred!
Appeasement doesn’t work, not with terrorists, not with dictators, not with culture wars. Concede to domestic partnerships or civil unions, and they will be used to drive the legalization of the sodomite mockery of marriage. Our only chance to salvage the structure of traditional American society is to recriminalize sodomy.
The slippery slope is mighty steep farther down, and there is no safety rail around the abyss at the bottom.
How about an EXTRA donation just to piss off parkay?
Since he thinks BJs should be illegal, I guess that means he’s never had one?
it shows…
Regular
Posted May 16, 2008 at 1:44 pm | Permalink
South Park…
Yeah Steven Davis…
South Park must be the key for internal reflection and guidance on moral issues.
South Park 1?
Ten Commandments 0?
**********
James,
When I start the church of St. Eric Cartman, can I count on you to be a founding member? I am sure KFG will be in the “amen corner”, how about you?
On the STFU, when my wife wants to politely invite me to be quiet, she now tells me “Stand The Floor Up”. Still laughing about that one.
Two consenting adults. What is so hard to understand?
Farm Gal,
How ’bout I make a donation in the name of Troy “Parkay” Newman? How many of you would join me? C’mon you good people, let’s see how much money his name’s worth for equal rights!
Steven Davis,
I think kfg is a Pastafarian, I’m unsure if her Cartman theology would be necessary or even complete.
I’m sure though she would volunteer to paint “YKK” (you killed kenny) on the appropriate altar fixture.
Parkay the problem with re-criminalizing sodomy is the Heterosexuals also commit sodomy. Legally married men and women commit sodomy as a standard of foreplay.
Are you talking about them too? You would have to otherwise such a criminalizing would not be constitutional.
I heard Hagees interview of two years ago on NPR today, what a nutcase. Scary that he has such a following..what in the hell is this country coming to? Seems like we’ve regressed back in time to when they believed that someone with seizures was poccessed by the devil.
I’ll donate !! It’s about time some common sense prevailed regarding the gay marriage issue. NOW can we focus on the real problems in our country? Like the economy, the war, the healthcare crisis, our disasterous foreign policy, etc, etc, etc…
No doubt the GOP will continue gay bashing. It is sure fire way to get the religious nuts to the polls on election day.
ksfarmgrrl Posted;
“HRC has set up a special fund – the HRC California Marriage PAC – to direct 100% of your contribution today to the fight against the anti-marriage ballot initiative in California. HRC is a member of Equality for All, the coalition working to defeat the marriage ban,…
Please donate generously today.””
Listen carefully…..Is that the sound of a penny hitting the bottom of an empty cup…..naw, just crickets I think.
Why are Republics so afraid of gays?
It seems pretty unnatural to be so afraid of less than four percent of the population that they have to devote so much time, energy and money to make it (them) go away.
There has to be more to the story - just why are the damned Republicans SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO afraid of gays?
“The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.”
H. L. Mencken
WS, you ask, “There has to be more to the story - just why are the damned Republicans SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO afraid of gays?”
This should get you and ksfarmgrrl fired up,
from Genesis;
“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
Jude 1:7 clearly implies homosexuality. “Going after strange flesh” means going after flesh “different” than what is rightfully ours to claim (our spouse’s body -1st Corinthians 7:4) The “strange” flesh simply refers to that which is forbidden by God for us to have, it is flesh outside the bounds of God’s laws; hence, the term “sexual deviance” (to deviate from what is acceptable to God).
We also read in 2nd Peter 2:6,7…
“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked.”
WS, does that answer your question? It should, and make you “SOOOOOO…afraid also, or at least question your own ideas.
“It should, and make you “SOOOOOO…afraid also, or at least question your own ideas.”
And the Bible also says that you should not plant more than one crop in a field, gives directions as to your treatment of your slaves and tells women that they should be silent in church.
And so on.
Do you follow ALL the rules as prescribed in the Bible or do you pick and choose?
If you do not follow all the rules, as written, how can you justify demanding that society follow the “rule” regarding gays?
Okay. Flash-card post (sorry, saving time!)
Arizona.
Amendment.
Senate (stalled).
Thankfully , my state senator :):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Aboud
Who cares? This is a non-issue. Our nation has bigger fish to fry than concentrating on a very small portion of the population.
Much bigger fish.
Regular,
You’re not very smart, but very funny. LOL
“commit sodomy as a standard of foreplay.”
Really? You have experience with this?
Don’t even take that disgusting thing after it’s been up the poop scoop and try aiming anywhere else.
That would be a very unsafe and unsanitary procedure (to put it lightly for posting).
Sodomy, by any engaged couple is a sexual act unto itself.
This is a perfect example of why sex education is an important aspect of child development.
It’s just as important to stress - as putting a condom on a banana.
For the health and safety of all, sexual partners should NEVER move from the anal penetration to any other penetration.
Ah, Blog Monitor McCreepy, ORAL sex is also considered sodomy by the sex police.
Dear WS,
Then all the more reason for sex education.
Much talk today on the subject of sodomy.
What the hell is it?
From a health perspective as if we were the medical authority what parts should move from A, B, or C, on the blackboard?
I’ve preassigned C = anal.
A & B?
“I’ve preassigned C = anal.”
Your choice.
Well “A” would be mouth.
and “B” would be what we called a home run
when compared to baseball. The strategic parts for “B” would involve the front side of either a male or female gender.
I think I have left something or somethings out.
But I really don’t remember.
“But I really don’t remember.”
Better go back to that Jr. High School sex ed class, McCluer - since you have never experienced the real thing.
Oh the Clarkbar is still up? Well if YOU can post offensive and brainless posts, then do not complain if other posters respond in kind.
Having monitored your posts as well as others for many moons on this bog, I am well aware of your drug addiction.
I would be most surprised if you remembered when
you last had your dip stick in the oil.
What you really really need at this late hour is
a joint.
We all know you Clarkie.
“I would be most surprised if you remembered when
you last had your dip stick in the oil.”
That would have been last night - but tonight holds promise also.
The night is young.
The night is young.
Yeah, but you aren’t.
And all of us at or beyond that age know full well
how full of shit you are. Your wife, no matter how stupid, is not that stupid at your age.
She is lying in wait at 50something for your thing-a-ling a-ling to come to bed.
In retrospect, your delusion could have been the result of years of drug abuse.
But your manly statements at 50+ are not fooling any of your fellow babyboomers.
But hey man! That’s cool bro! Like whatever makes you feel good man!
“Your wife, no matter how stupid, is not that stupid at your age.”
I’m not married, but I do date women of a younger age.
“But your manly statements at 50+ are not fooling any of your fellow babyboomers.”
I don’t need little blue pills to get me up for the occasion.
“Yeah, but you aren’t.”
I am fifty six, not ninety six.
And my lady is not a 3D blow-up doll, unlike yours.
Like Wow Clark. You are the MAN! Way cool dude.
You are hard dude. So hard I could rollerskate on you.
Here man, take the roach clip Man! You are far out!
Remember when you used to say:
I’m so high I’m looking up at my tennis shoes,
and it says PF FLYERS,
like the billboard
on the back of a giants jock.
Are the road moving man?
Having you been sitting at the stop sign for
five minutes now, and you are hitting the breaks
with all your strength?
Watching the road being swallowed up by the manhole in the middle of the intersection?
Afraid to move forward?
“Having you been sitting at the stop sign for
five minutes now, and you are hitting the breaks
with all your strength?”
Most of us refer to them as “brakes” dufus.
Hey man Clarkie,
have you ever looked closely at the album covers
of YES?
Aren’t those far out man! Little space ships flying above the small pieces of earth like planets suspended in the universe man.
That’s deep man. Real deep. Those guys are way coool. Dig it man! Ya dig?
“I’ve seen all good people turn their heads each day so satisfied I’m on my way.”
“and they stand there
one mile over we’ll be there and we’ll see you
ten true summers we’ll be there and laughing too
twenty four before my love you’ll see I’ll be there with you”
They got it man. They’ve BEEN THERE and back.
They know all the people trapped on the overpopulated planet will start falling off that little piece of planet, is the tragic end.
Those little old fashion zepplins in the art work cover, in the middle of the future realization of the WORLD man! Advanced technolgy but still the zepplins man!
And they tie up with the LED man! That MEANS SOMETHING! They are remembering and honoring the first heavy LED man. The Led Zepplin!
See how it all comes around and ties together man?
(You druggies are all alike. So Cheech and Chong)
Clark posts,
“Hey man, you mean BRAKES man!” laughing hysterically. “You got that confused man. You used a word than spells the same but means differenlty, man.” “Wait man, I mean you mean.” “No” “I mean you typed a word man that sounds the same man, but is spelled differently, man!”
“Hey man, you done with that bong?” You mind if I take a hit off it?” “Oh wow man, you wet lipped the roach man. It’s all wet man!” “You know what we call that man, huh man?” “Can you dig it man?”
(Clark probably still has his drug Paraphernalia.)
(concert tickets to the grateful dead too)
Oops, I missed the generation. Clark is this is our generation. It’s the real thing! Coke is.
Or maybe even the pepsi generation.
Number nine. Number Nine.
Turn me on dead man.
Parkay bloviates:
“Appeasement doesn’t work, not with terrorists, not with dictators, not with culture wars”
Actually when Israel did “appease” Palestinians by giving them the Golan Heights it did improve relations and brought about the end of the terrorist faction of the PLO. And I suppose when the allies appeased Germany by giving them back self-rule and avoided the punishment that led to the 2nd world war it did prevent further conflicts. Or I suppose when the Bush regime “appeased” North Korea and gave them foreign aid in exchange for NK giving up it’s nuclear program it worked.
What didn’t work is rejecting diplomacy with Iraq and instead bombing them and occupying the nation for five years. But since you are a cowardly chicken hawk you don’t mind playing armchair general as long as others do your dying for you.
Thank you all for your promised donations. And jed, it would be a scream if they were made “in honor of” Troy and/or parkay.
The fundies are really in an uproar about this. You can bet, they will fight this with all their money.
So… we need some financial help to fight fire with fire.
And yes Rage, there is hope after Arizona did the right thing.
And boxlick, why would I care if you post verses from the greatest fairy tale ever told?
I could quote the Karma Sutra too, but it would be lost on you…
Oh and when you are feeling generous, dont forget the Kansas Equality Coalition. They do fabulous work against impossible odds in Kansas. Google ‘em.
It is a really sad that homosexual relationships are being compared to marriage. The masculine and feminine traits that God created come together in marriage becuase of love. And it has the power to create life naturally and also sustain it because they are complimentary. This cannot happen in a homosexual relationship. Many people have recieved the benefits of marriage from their parents because of male and female traits complimenting each other. In a homosexual relationship only one of them will exist.
With the prevalent relativisitic and self-centered world view in which right and wrong depend on the feeling of the individual person, it is easy to see why homosexuals feel that way. The truth though is plain to see but the mind and feelings are powerful things and they can distort reality.
“‘HRC has set up a special fund – the HRC California Marriage PAC – to direct 100% of your contribution today to the fight against the anti-marriage ballot initiative in California. HRC is a member of Equality for All, the coalition working to defeat the marriage ban, and these funds will support the coalition’s efforts.
Please donate generously today.’”
https://secure.ga3.org/03/ca_marriage_pac
Got the e-mail. Done.
Re: Boxlock
DNFTSRWT
Ok, this is getting too funny.
John Stone, yer still insane. But say hey to aaron for me.
Mabye we need to send some donations in the name of “john stone” since he ONLY shows up on the gay marriage threads.
Unless he posts under some other name here too….
And ALL of you suppporting gay marriage need to read this thread and bookmark it for future use.
Wingnuts need not bother.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×3298013
John, why are you ashamed to post under your real name anymore? Afraid someone will know in RL what a BIGOT you are?
hint: I bet they already know and your church buddies agree with you.
Say hey to terry, joe and fred, will ha?
Thank you ksagnostic. Every time someone donates, john and boxlick shed a few tears.
You can contribute here in support of the California Marriage Amendment:
https://www.completecampaigns.com/FR/contribute.asp?campaignid=ProtectMarriage
KFG,
Compared to what you and your liberal ilk post against religion in general and christians in particular, what I posted is rather mild. Look in the mirror and try and remove that log in your eye.
So John Stone, just how many nics do you use here?
And tell the truth, ’cause jesus doesnt like liars.
And why do you only use this nic when posting about gay marriage?
Or is gay marriage the ONLY issue you care about?
Wait, lemme guess. You are anti-choice too.
In any event, you just PROVED how insane you are by using a fairy tale verse to chastise me.
How funny. And how typically insane…
Is aaron your son? or just another nic you use?
Stoned,
Have you ever once had a conversation (not a confrontation) with an out gay person? If so, did you discuss their orientation? Your diatribes sound so utterly theoretical that I can’t imagine you have.
Gay people are human too, and they love just exactly as much as straight people, probably even more, considering all the sh*t you people pile on them for loving at all!
You, on the other hand, haven’t once revealed a capacity for real love for anybody in your posts. Maybe you need to have a discussion with Jesus about that- He seemed to know a fair amount about the subject.
Please don’t confuse marriage with reproduction. Reproduction works just fine in the absence of love, and there are plenty of examples to prove it; marriage doesn’t. Further, there are many married couples who have no desire for children but love each other passionately, yet you are denying their obvious love for each other by using that argument
I recently attended the 60th anniversary of a gay couple I’ve known for some few years. From reading your posts I honestly can’t see you keeping a love going for that long, or really be in love at all, for that matter. You might actually learn a few things from them!
You know kfg and Jed, there could be the reason why there is no dialog between you and John_S?
Condemning a person when you don’t know them or have met them is the same thing you are accusing John_S of doing.
KFG,
calm down, don’t get so worked up. This is the only nicname I use when posting. I am telling the truth here, even though some fairy tale charachter doesn’t like liars! btw you are insane too because the fairy tale charachter who doesn’t like lies is in the same book that I quoted my fairy tale verse. Just kidding.
I usually post my opinions in threads that are extremely liberal in their world view. These are the threads where liberals try to demonize conservatives and christians as the cause of all problems. It has been sometime since I have posted here though and I don’t post very often. I wonder if all liberals were on a remote island, who would you blame for all your self-inflicted problems?
Lastly, I don’t know why you associate aaron with me.
Maybe the court’s decision in California will help the Gay community recruit more members? It doesn’t take a Darwinist to know that in order to sustain the gay population, some kind of recruitment strategy is required.
A court’s overruling of a voter approved law defining marriage, should go far in laying the foundation for justifying a lifestyle that is physically destructive and non-procreative.
I regret that some people that I know are convinced that they were some how born to be gay. It’s not fun having AIDS from what I can tell, but of course they can not help it. For some reason, even with the widespread availablity of the condom for decades, AIDS is a pernicious problem with the gay community as well as anybody involved in promiscuous sex.
Watch for more gay friendly teaching material to be included in a kindergarten near you as this aggressive recruitment trend to continues down to where it is most effective.
Protect your children if you love them.
Reggie,
No, I only know Stone from the opinions he’s posted here over the years, but those opinions have told me a lot about the man and his hatreds. I don’t need to see his face to read the viciousness expressed in his writing.
Also, I was not just speaking to him, but to all the people who voice such cruelty toward people I know and who have been my true friends at times in my life when I really needed friends. Those people may be blissfully ignorant of the damage they do to gay people, but I’ve seen way too much of it to let them off the hook for crimes they are just as guilty of as the ones they incite.
“It doesn’t take a Darwinist to know that in order to sustain the gay population, some kind of recruitment strategy is required.”
That’s kinda like saying males need to recruit more men into their population because men don’t have ovaries and can’t reproduce.
Ted Haggard managed to have a few children despite being gay. I suppose that kinda puts a dent into your pseudoscience.
Stoned,
Maybe that’s the problem! You’re obsessing on just one book of fairy tales when there are so many other fairy tales in the world that make pretty good reading too! You need to put that one away for a while and broaden your world to include some of the other fairy tales.
Jed
Posted May 17, 2008 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
Reggie,
No, I only know Stone from the opinions he’s posted here over the years, but those opinions have told me a lot about the man and his hatreds. I don’t need to see his face to read the viciousness expressed in his writing.
Also, I was not just speaking to him, but to all the people who voice such cruelty toward people I know and who have been my true friends at times in my life when I really needed friends. Those people may be blissfully ignorant of the damage they do to gay people, but I’ve seen way too much of it to let them off the hook for crimes they are just as guilty of as the ones they incite.
———————–
So each one of you will continue to call each other haters and intolerant.
Well then Jed, thanks for the lesson on how Liberal thought works.
“Ted Haggard managed to have a few children despite being gay. I suppose that kinda puts a dent into your pseudoscience.”
A person who engages in gay sex can only have children when they practice NON-gay sexual activity. Which by definition makes him/her a bisexual (not gay). So only bisexuals or straight people can reproduce.
So again I write:
It doesn’t take a Darwinist to know that in order to sustain the gay population, some kind of recruitment strategy is required.
“Condemning a person when you don’t know them or have met them is the same thing you are accusing John_S of doing.”
Well that is mighty hypocritical of you, McCluer. You in your many incarnations condemn me everyday, yet you neither know me or have met me.
Raffle,
“It doesn’t take a Darwinist to know that in order to sustain the gay population, some kind of recruitment strategy is required.”
Do you really think recruitment is even possible? Could Mr. Right come along and change your sexual orientation? If he could, don’t you think you might have some serious thinking to do?
I’ve know a lot of gay people over the decades, and I never once heard one tell me he was recruited! Most of them knew they were gay long before they knew what gay sex (or any other kind of sex) was. I went all through school with the same class of kids, three of whom were gay. I remember them well, and they were gay from 1st grade on!
Furthermore, there was a long-term study of over 3,000 children finished about 10yrs ago that showed that psychological tests given to children at the age of 4yrs were highly accurate at predicting their adult sexual orientation. If you are stll insisting that recruitment is the cause, it had to have happened before that age in every case. Don’t you think that’s more than a bit of a stretch? Or would that get in the way of what your preacher told you?
Reggie,
“Well then Jed, thanks for the lesson on how Liberal thought works.”
Liberal thought? No, that’s the way THOUGHT works! Try it sometime, you might like it!
“It doesn’t take a Darwinist to know that in order to sustain the gay population, some kind of recruitment strategy is required.”
So what does mentioning Darwin have to do with anything? People give birth to gay children, those children are capable of reproducing, so where is the recruitment aspect?
I suppose your right, it doesn’t take a “Darwinist” (I’m assuming you mean a scientist) to realize this because no credible scientist would buy into your pseudoscientific nonsense that’s clearly debunked by common sense.
“RFL” offers comic relief with –
“…in order to sustain the gay population, some kind of recruitment strategy is required.”
Thanks for revealing that, “RFL!”
Now the only thing left is for GAY, Incorporated to come up with the right advertising campaign and they’ll lure you into a life of choreography, interior decoration, and eyebrow waxing!
It’s all in the RECRUITMENT!!
Thanks for clearing that up!
(Will you be willing to enroll in cosmetology college? You seem like a finger-curl natural.)
Here is a little fairy tale story for between a liberal and a rational person:
Rational : How much is 2 + 2?
Liberal : 5.
Rational : No its 4.
Liberal : Its 5.
/liberal gets flustered\
Rational : Look I have two fingers up on my right hand and now two fingers up on my left hand. If you count all the fingers that I have up, you will see 2 + 2 makes 4.
/liberal gets pissed\
Liberal : You think its 4 because you are a hater and a 5ophobe. You should be put in jail for saying such things. Its that stupid bible that gives you these ideas….
/Rational throws his hands in the air\
Rational : Its simple math. Its not too complicated.
/liberal goes on whining\
Raffle,
“A person who engages in gay sex can only have children when they practice NON-gay sexual activity. Which by definition makes him/her a bisexual (not gay). So only bisexuals or straight people can reproduce.”
Actually, nearly all of the gay people I’ve known have tried straight sex, someimes for years, finding it just as disgusting as you seem to find gay sex, before saying to themselves “Why should I have to fantasize about him in order to have sex with her? Why not sleep with the guy I love?
At least half of the gay people I know have children. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’re bi, it means they’ve tried hetero and it doesn’t work for them. I’ve known a lot of those children too. Of those, only one was gay (which shoots holes in your recruitment theory), but all of them accepted their gay parents and friends without a hint of your bigotry. I think that’s what you’re most afraid of!
That story was for you Jed
Why do gay people frighten you, John S?
Its because people who think that marriage is between a man and a woman frighten you.
Stoned,
Then there was the one about the consevative who was asked to come up with just one original thought. He tried and tried and tried, for years he tried, but everything he thought had already been on Limbaugh of O’Reilly!
Finally he shouted “I’ve got it! There is no such thing as an original thought.”
Unfortunately, that wasn’t original either.
A lot of people say the sky is blue. That is not an original thought either. They just say it as they see it.
“People give birth to gay children”
-Maggotpunk
I can only laugh. c’mon maggopunk gay children? You have to be joking.
People give birth to children who grow up and choose to be doctors and lawyers. Does that prove that being a doctor and a lawyer is genetic?
Darwinian evolution and homosexuality as an inherited trait are incompatible. Therefore, without active indoctrination focused on recruitment, “Gay Inc” will go extinct.
Stoned,
I think marrige is between two people over the are of 18 and who love each other. What’s so hard about that? And why are their genders of any concern to you? You can still marry anyone over 18 who will have you (although I’m sure that last phrase could make it problematic).
“I can only laugh. c’mon maggopunk gay children? You have to be joking.”
That’s funny, so you are essentially saying you can be recruited to have sex with other guys. Were you that guy leering at me in the locker room?
Homosexuality occurs throughout the animal kingdom. I suppose in your pseudoscientific dreamworld chimps, geese and aquatic life all have recruitment centers too. Funny how ignorance makes a person look so utterly foolish.
Raffle,
While I’m sure gay recruitment has been tried on occasion, I’ve never once heard of of it working on someone who was previously straight. And somehow I missed seeing the poster that said “Aunt Sam Wants YOU!” I take it you were never successfully recruited.
When you try and make the case for gay marriage why do you always compare the worst cases of heterosexual behavior to the best of homosexual ones? A majority of marriages are strong and millions of couples stay together till they die. The only thing is they are not in the media spotlight all the time. But the dysfuntional hollywood-like couples are always in the spotlight. If you look at those relationships as standard then you can make the case that a lot of other relationships deserve to be marriage.
Also if you think gender is not important in marriage, then why is the number? Why can’t three people over 18 have a relationship and call it marriage?
You fundies and cons better EMBRACE letting anyone who wants to get married.
That particular quaint tradition aint particularly trendy these last many years.
I think in not too long a time, marriage will be seen as “cute”.
As in “Oh isn’t that cute! They want to get married!”
Stoned,
“A lot of people say the sky is blue. That is not an original thought either. They just say it as they see it.”
Believe me, I’ve seen (and photographed) the sky in just about any color you could name, and a few you couldn’t. Blue is only one of them. I’m sorry it’s the only color you can see.
“Its because people who think that marriage is between a man and a woman frighten you.”
Well, that certainly was a stupid reply - says a lot about the thought that you have put into the issue.
“Therefore, without active indoctrination focused on recruitment, “Gay Inc” will go extinct.”
Yes, I have personally walked past the Gay, Inc. recruiting station at the Mall. They were doing a brisk business turning boys into queens.
Yep, right there in the Mall in Wichita, USA.
BJ,
“I think in not too long a time, marriage will be seen as “cute”.
As in “Oh isn’t that cute! They want to get married!””
I hope that’s never the case; a good marriage is about the most beautiful thing a person could wish for!
As far as the gender being important in marriage, the feminine and masculine sides come together because of love in marriage. This love has the unique ability to create life. It has the unique ability to sustain any created life. It is beneficial for the children and the man and the woman who are married. It is a beautiful institution of selfless love between two people. The difference in gender brings two complementary sides together and completes the relationship. Hope this helps.
WSClark,
I put as much thought into it as you did when you asked “Why do gay people frighten you, John S?”
“I put as much thought into it as you did when you asked “Why do gay people frighten you, John S?””
Really? You are obviously afraid of something to want to go to such great lengths to deny the same rights as you have to such a small portion of the society.
Gays are less than 4% of the population - is there another small, law abiding group of people that you would choose to deny rights?
Are you guys still responding to the insane John_Stone?
As far as the gender being important in marriage, the feminine and masculine sides come together because of love in marriage. This love has the unique ability to create life. It has the unique ability to sustain any created life. It is beneficial for the children and the man and the woman who are married. It is a beautiful institution of selfless love between two people.”
Oh yeah… and it has all the sanctity of being committed to drunk in front of an Elvis impersonator.
isnt THAT special.
So much for it’s “sanctity”….
And all that beautiful lovemaking?
Can be done without the benefit of marriage.
And it can be done by two women and two men.
But please, keep living in the eighteenth century.
Somehow, it seems to fit you and your “belief”. Which is really bigotry carrying a cross and wrapped in the flag.
WSClark
Posted May 16, 2008 at 10:06 pm | Permalink
Why are Republics so afraid of gays?
It seems pretty unnatural to be so afraid of less than four percent of the population that they have to devote so much time, energy and money to make it (them) go away.
There has to be more to the story - just why are the damned Republicans SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO afraid of gays?
**********
Am I the only one who’s noticed that the Wichita metro area’s new gay park is down the street from big, fundie Central Community Church - Chisholm Creek Park??? This began about four years ago - the same time Joe Wright was bringing in Jerry Falwell to push the inequality amendment against taxpaying citizens of the state. The blinders people wear about who’s screwing whom just amaze me. Wichita’s Finest’s certainly tried to don blinders - for about four years - as their policy was to threaten the guys in the park with “Telling their WIVES.” The police dept. even released a statement to that effect to the local news stations who dutifully announced it on the air - “The police will tell your wives.”
I don’t remember the gays cruising Herman Hill Park ever receiving this light-handed a touch from the police. Even now the charges against the guys being caught at Chisholm are hush-hush compared to the Herman Hill raids when the cops released the charges with all the gory details about crotches being grabbed to the news agencies.
Nope, if you’re a “good ‘Christian’ husband” who’s meeting strange men from out-of-town to bend over for in the park, and you’re part of the “conservative” enclave of east Wichita’s fundie community, you get four years of warnings regardless of your downlow lifestyle in which you’re betraying your wife, children, church and God before the authorities actually do anything about it. If you’re honestly openly gay well, you’re bad person and the charges against you will be released to the public.
Why are Republicans so afraid of gays? Because they’re the ones doing all the terrible things they say “gays” do: destroying the sanctity of marriage - and not with gay sex, but with the lies they tell to their wives, children, friends, pastors, congregations, political party, etc. cover up the truth. Republicans aren’t afraid of gays; they’re afraid of the truth.
Jed,
Get out of your basement and look at the sky, its blue today with some white clouds. Just kidding.
My point was some people say it as they see it or as another saying goes ‘they call a spade a spade’
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAH!
“Why can’t three people over 18 have a relationship and call it marriage?”
Um, I dont know. You tell me.
My guess is that bigoted christians like you wouldnt allow it?
Stoned,
“When you try and make the case for gay marriage why do you always compare the worst cases of heterosexual behavior to the best of homosexual ones?”
Actually, I don’t have to. Out of all the couples I’ve known over the years, nearly all of the gay couples are still with the same partner as when I met them. I wish I could say the same of the straight couples, but just less than half of them are.
Obama just said in a speech in Oregon that he wants full Federal benefits for domestic partnerships, civil unions, etc.
Survivor benefits for Social Security, etc.
CNN right now.
WSClark,
What are you scared of?
Someone saying marriage is really between a man and a woman does not infringe on anyone’s rights.
RFL, are you really as big a stupid jerk as you post here, or do you just play one on tv.
NO ONE on this thread said being gay is inherited. Straight parents have gay kids and gay parents ahve straight kids, and vice versa.
Damn that much ignorance makes my eyes hurt to read it.
“It doesn’t take a Darwinist to know that in order to sustain the gay population, some kind of recruitment strategy is required.”
So… as long as straight people, like MY parents, continue to give birth to gay children, uh, no we dont need no stinkin’ recruitment.
You cant MAKE someone gay, anymore than you can MAKE someone straight.
Jesus WEPT! What ignorance!
But.. I do remember one incidence of recruitment.
I think it was her wife. And she was “initiated” too.
But we did use protection, because, uh, we didnt know where all YOU have been dippin’ yer dipstick…
And another comment against recruitment?
The fastest growing group of AIDS sufferers are “straight” women.
now, where do you supppose THEY get it from?
WSClark,
You just spin it in that way so that you can shove your beliefs down peoples throats.
DAMMIT!
“I think it was her wife. And she was “initiated” too.”
should have been YOUR wife.
And maybe your daughter too…
OMG yeah, because, um, Clark SO went to the polls and voted to institutionalize HIS beliefs in the kansas konstitution….
And btw, no one recruited me.
I volunteered….
Stoned,
And the point that I was making was that too many people only see what they’re told.
“As far as the gender being important in marriage, the feminine and masculine sides come together because of love in marriage. This love has the unique ability to create life.”
Just because gender and kids are important to you doesn’t give you the right to demand that everybody else see it your way or else!
By the way, it won’t be long now until the fertility specialists have perfected techniques allowing gay couples to have children. What will your argument be then?
McCain Hypocracy and Flight 93 hero Mark Bingham. Bingham was a gay man and one of the heroes who helped bring down terrorist hijacked Flight 93 before it reached Washington, DC. He was also a major contributor of John McCain’s. Below are the comments McCain made regarding Bingham’s sacrific. Sadly, as with Republicans McCain would now gladly deny Bingham his civil rights had this hero survived:
********
Sen. McCain pays tribute to Mark Bingham
http://www.markbingham.org/
John McCain recently delivered a eulogy to honor the openly gay Bingham, who was one of his supporters in the 2000 presidential campaign. In it he said: I never knew Mark Bingham. But I wish I had. I know he was a good son and friend, a good rugby player, a good American, and an extraordinary human being. He supported me, and his support now ranks among the greatest honors of my life. I wish I had known before September 11 just how great an honor his trust in me was. I wish I could have thanked him for it more profusely than time and circumstances allowed. But I know it now. And I thank him with the only means I possess, by being as good an American as he was.
“Someone saying marriage is really between a man and a woman does not infringe on anyone’s rights.”
No, it doesnt. Saying it is your right.
Putting it in the constitution, however, does infringe on my right to marry the consenting adult of my choice.
Are you really this stupid or just yankin’ our chains?
KFG,
Why can’t three people over 18 have a relationship and call it marriage? I am sure “bigotted” christians will be against it because it is not marriage. But “enlightened” liberals will fight for it or just find it amusing. Because if marriage is not between a man and a woman, then it can be anything you want it to be!
Obvious Joke
#1 My Mother made me a Lesbian.
#2 If I give her the yarn, will she make me one?
(cue the rim shot)
I’ll be here all week. Try the waitresses and tip the veal.
KFG,
Why is it your “right” to marry the consenting adult of your choice?
Like I said, john stone is still insane. But say hey to aaron too…
You dont know the poster aaron_s who’s email was conveniently “aaron_stone”?
riiiiiiiight.
Sounds like you know as little about blogs as you do about the constitution.
“Because if marriage is not between a man and a woman, then it can be anything you want it to be!”
I want what you are stoned on.
Uh, no, it is CONSENTING ADULTS.
Jesus WEPT. Is there some part of the phrase “consenting adults” that you dont understand?
Monkey, can she make me one too?
Tall, dark, muscular, with a womanly smile?
Carpentry, plumbing, and mechanical skills a plus!
hehehehhehe
My favorite personals ad? “Me: camo by day, diamonds by night. You: breathing”.
KFG,
Why do you associate me with Aaron? Is it like associating marriage with gay relationships. We are not remotely the same.