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Easier. . . no helmet. . .no state benefits
Easiest . .. . .Let the insurance company set the restrictions.

The tragedy is that the trauma ruins the organs.

Same should apply to motorists for driving without seatbelts.
Oh yes even more so!

I am a old rider, what does that mean? Mainly I survived enough “oh crap!” moments to have learned from them! Speeding is stupid and in my opinion detracts from the pleasure of riding. All but one of the accidents I had were lay downs. loose sand and once driving off a cliff in Missouri. Add looking at the scenery instead of the road ahead to speeding and no Helmet! The one time another vehicle was involved I ended up laying on the trunk of a car that had stopped fast in front of me. Yes I was wearing a Helmet and yes it was a good day because of wearing a Helmet!

My best friend had a car pull out in front of him once, he was launched into the air. He landed so hard on his head, the pressed emblem of “BELL” was imprinted into his forehead! I am not kidding for years afterwards if he got mad enough that his face got flushed. YOU COULD SEE “BELL” on his forehead! Yeah I can still chuckle about it today, but at the time it put him in the hospital with a concussion and for a time in a drug endues coma. He was knocked out for about twenty minutes and I thought I might be losing my friend.

In the season where most ride, wearing a Helmet sucks, they are hot and sweaty and the wind does feel so good as it passes over your head. But Seldom would I ride without one, as I said I have had enough “Oh Crap!” moments to have learned.

With gas prices so high we will see an increase in the numbers of death involving Motor cycles.
A good number of them will be people that either had not ridden very long or never before they bought the bike. The great danger is still that guy in the car around the rider, with time the rider learns that it is up to them to watch out. I have lost track of how many times I had someone pull out in front of me. I have even had three times it was done on purpose! In doubt of it when that fooker is looking me in the eye and laughing while doing it.

I get so tired of the “media” hype. The line they include (television and print) “he was NOT wearing a helmet” when they have no clue of cause of death is slanted reporting.

I have had contact with one of the Eagle editors and a reporter. They tell me that information is provided by the police. I have talked with police spokesman Gordon Bassham, and he tells me it is not volunteered by police, but only provided after a reporter asks. Who do we believe?

The reporter never has cause of death information at the time of the story–that has to wait for a coroner’s report, but that doesn’t stop them from reporting “he was NOT wearing a helmet”. A friend of mine died of internal injuries..the coroner stated his internal organs were macerated and his lungs were punctured..but the only thing the media reported was the lack of a helmet. His head was fine–there was an open casket funeral.

Biased/slanted reporting of extraneous information leads the mindless sheep to think the victim would have lived had he been wearing a helmet. In many cases, that is not true..but that doesn’t stop the media.

Nano..

Fine. I will, and have been doing so for over 40 years…and in the meantime, I assume you are perfect, do not weigh an ounce more than you ’should’. You always eat 8 servings of fruits and vegetables every day? Deal..you stay out of my life, and I will stay out of yours, deal?

Where did you get the 95% figure? Must have made it up..since the Feds–after extensive study–prove that helmets MIGHT be effective 37% of the time…maybe. Who came up with the 95% effective figure?

Hey Nano…do you need lessons in reading? Where did I say a single word about seat belts? I re-read my comments…and there is not one mention of them. Are you making that up like your made up 95% effective statistic?

Here is one for you…seat belts help protect the ENTIRE BODY (which obviously helmets do not) by keeping people from being ejected or hitting the dashboard/windshield. Seatbelts are standard, one size fits all, and they don’t break your neck (remember Dale Earnheardt?)

There..I said something about seat belts..but didn’t use any isolated incidents to talk against them. Or…are you going to make up more false claims?

Try the facts for a refreshing change…you just might learn something.

As a so-called safety expert, if a motorcycle rider were to make a claim against a company that it received a head injury on the way to work and was not wearing a helmet (note: some companies allow claims if injuries are work related such as transportation to work)

…then, I would have to, after conducting a risk assessment, have to deny that claim, because the rider did not wear opt to wear protective gear.

Life is harsh and real.

For anyone to argue that helmets don’t save lives is completely and totally ignorant. No a helmet won’t save you in all cases for every time…but it does increase your odds of suffering from a major head injury. That’s pretty obvious. Seatbelts help, but they also aren’t guaranteed to save your life. They are TOOLS to increase your odds of a better outcome in certain accidents.

i’d call a step further. Anyone speeding 10mph or over should be barred from receiving insurance benefits as well. Speed is the number 1 factor above all else in fatality incidents. We can all make the roads safer.

As long as we’re talking about driving, I want to bring up another comment. We need to change the law so that anyone over 80 must go in yearly for a driving test. I know that sounds discriminatory and the elderly lobby will go nuts over it, but changes in the elderly start happening at a faster pace during these years, and I’m dealing right now with a grandfather who absolutely will NOT stop driving. He needs a restriction on driving out of town. That’s all. Think of all the elderly that travel to doctors appointments coming from small towns across kansas- to Wichita. He renewed his license at 86 years old for…another 6 years! That is absurd. He gets in another town and gets confused as to where he is going, and he’s going to end up being one of those people who get on the interstate going the wrong way.

I’m doing all I can to restrict his need to drive out of town, but sometimes he doesn’t tell me when he has an appointment.

Capn…TEN TIMES as many people die in car wrecks every year as motorcyclists..yet NONE of them are wearing helmets. Would you recommend helmets for these ‘organ donors’ as well? Or can you honestly admit the public would never, ever stand for such an imposition?

C’mon, you’re not really that stupid, are you, Taz?

You’re a CON, yes, but you can’t be that brain-dead already.

Of course, more people die in car accidents. That’s because far more people drive cars and car drivers log many more miles in cars.

Sheesh.

Taz
Posted May 3, 2008 at 10:58 am | Permalink
Reg–
Sorry..I don’t buy it. First, “if” is projection not fact. Second, “some companies” is not descriptive. Third, it is speculation based on assigned risk by insurance companies. Forth, people die/are injured with head injuries every day while wearing helmets. I can’t agree with your speculation being ‘harsh and real’. I prefer dealing with facts instead of supposition.
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You may not buy it Taz, but the reality is that many insurance carriers who supply health insurance to companies rely heavily on the evaluation of risk by safety professionals.

You should ask a trucker how much they hate having their records scrutinized by their Safety Professional. :)

Insurance adjusters (trained mathemeticians) are even more harsh as they deal with complicated formulas.

Please, Taz, continue to not wear your helmet. We’ll remember you well.

Wasn’t there a member of the board who was IN a motorcycle accident recently who now swears by helmets?

Well Taz, the car helmet versus motorcycle helmet has already been evaluated and rejected – no doubt to the coiffures worn by the enlightened masses. :D

In warehouses, there is always a danger of falling objects and injuries to the head. It’s why Safety Professionals will reject the purchase or lease of a forklift that does not have a protective cage, roll bar and proper counter balancing.

The “cage” of a car does provide protection against inertial injury with objects outside of that cage, while a motorcycle cannot.

Cars also have seatbelts and airbags to restrain the driver/passenger within the protective “cage” in the event of an accident, while motorcycles do not.

Usually, the first thing that happens in a motorcycle accident, to a greater or lesser degree, is that the rider is separated from his motorcycle and become the object of inertia in considering the end result.

In other words, the rider becomes the bullet.

Taz
Posted May 3, 2008 at 11:30 am | Permalink
Reg–
As far as insurance goes…let’s expand the denial of claim thought a bit, shall we?

Based on lifestyle, insurance companies should deny any and all health benefits to anyone who smokes, has ever smoked, or voluntarily been in a room with smokers.

Claims should be denied for anyone more than 5 pounds overweight. Ditto for anyone who has a blood pressure higher than 115 over 70. Ditto for anyone who doesn’t exercise 1 hour a day, every day. Deny benefits for anyone who has ever eaten a McDonald’s hamburger.

Life style choices all…risky behavior as well. This would be the insurance industry’s dream.
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Believe it or not, where companies provide health insurance, all of what you wrote is considered.

Part of a Safety Professional’s duty is to provide a health and safety plan via education. Since the worker has a requirement to attend and signs off that he/she attended, if there is an issue where the worker ignored the education despite having acknowledging it, claims against the company can be denied.

Of course, the bottom line depends on how good your lawyer is. :)

Taz
Posted May 3, 2008 at 11:35 am | Permalink
Reg–I saw a post by a moron the other day on another forum saying that since motorcycle racers must wear helmets, all motorcyclists should.

Extend that just a hair…don’t NASCAR drivers wear helmets? Ergo…ALL motor vehicle operators/passengers should be required to wear pieces of plastic. If helmets are so good, think of the lives that would be ’saved’.

Some motorcyclists die of head injuries…so that justifies helmets? Well..some car occupants die of head injuries as well..that should also justify helmets.
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Oh I don’t disagree with the concept Taz that car drivers should be required to wear protective head gear, but there are practical limitations as well.

As you pointed out NASCAR requires the wearing of helmets. Notice that NASCAR as a certifying entity takes the place of a company stance on policy. The NASCAR ‘gun to the head’ so to speak, if you don’t follow our rules, you don’t drive in our races.

Heck, some cities require bicycle riders,skaters and skate boarders to wear helmets.

When I or any other Safety Professional make a risk assessment, it is assigned a number (through several calculations of energy sources.) The number has no appeal to emotion nor has any investment in the insurance company nor the company requesting the assessment.

It’s just a straight, cold hard number based on evaluation of hazards.

Like I said harsh, but that’s reality.

I agree about the media and always pointing out whether a driver was wearing a seatbelt or a rider wearing a helmet. I was a witness to that horable wreck at Kellogg and Santa Fe Lake Road. The article pointed out that the driver was wearing her seatbelt. I wanted to puke. That tractor-trailer hit that car so hard that the only thing recognizeable about it was it was red.

Regular wrote:
“Oh I don’t disagree with the concept Taz that car drivers should be required to wear protective head gear, but there are practical limitations as well”

And what are those ‘practical limitations’? Other than the public would never stand for it, that is? Like here..many posters have expressed their total belief in the value of helmets…yet discount the idea of wearing them in cars. Why is that? Because it would affect THEM, that is why. But, since motorcycle helmets do not affect most people, they feel it is just fine to state how wonderful they are.

Anyone who values helmets has obviously never ridden across the Mojave Desert in August while wearing one.

I’m not a rider. Why not? Because in the space of a year and a half, I lost six friends to motorcycle accidents. Since then, several others have been killed or worse.
Motorcycles are inherently unsafe. First, far too many drivers fail to notice motorcycles in the surrounding traffic, probably because a motorcycle doesn’t represent as much of a threat to them as other cars and trucks. I had a friend some years back, a veteran rider, who told me he could come to a four way stop and make eye contact with the driver of every other vehicle in the intersection and still be quite sure none of them had taken note of his presence. As a result, motorcycle riders are at greater risk of being in a potential accident situation.
Second, in an accident situation, any added maneuverability is vastly outweighed by the rider’s exposure to the road and to other vehicles. There is no practical way to use such safety features such as seat belts, airbags or a steel cage on a motorcycle. And yes, a helmet only provides minimal protection, but it is still better than nothing at all between you and whatever is coming at you!
Yes, I’m sure there is nothing that quite matches that feeling of freedom on the open road, but the thought of my children growing up without a father always outweighed that. If you want to ride, go ahead; but be aware of the risks you’re subjecting yourself and your loved ones to.

First off, Jed, you lost six friends in accidents? Im not sure I believe that. There are people in Iraq who havent lost that many friends. Second, Mary, they are only a burden to taxpayers if they are uninsured.

If you’re silly enough to ride a motorcycle without protective gear, your gene pool probably should be drained.

Still, I can relate to “Taz” and his resentment of the state or society or logic or whatever forcing him to wear a hat.

It does seem a tad discriminatory. On the surface.

Here’s the way I see it:

When any of us get into an injury accident, the taxpayers starting paying out good money. For highly-trained paramedics, a high-tech high-priced emergency room, sometimes a helicopter, and at all times a trauma center that practices the most advanced and most expensive medicine ever known by mankind.

If I’m gonna automatically hire all that technology and skilled, incredibly smart people to save you’re sorry ass, I kinda think I have a right that you care at least enough about your life as they do.

At least, fasten your seatbelt.

At least, wear a helmet on your bike.

Part of the problem with democracy is that all the laws (and there are far too many of them) are there because people didn’t simply do the right thing.

Don’t kill somebody.
Don’t steal.
Don’t rape.
Don’t pollute.
Don’t create a shell corporation under an obscure section of the statutes to bilk your stockholders, employees, and customers to enrich yourself.

My point is: “Taz,” this isn’t some kind of Kafka-esque plot by the “Powers that Be” against you and your freedom to get bugs in your hair on a vintage Vincent Black Shadow, it’s simply a (minor) subsection of the contract with society every all civilized people and every civilized nation adheres to.

True the in reality the head is no more one of the parts of body that suffers injury that the rest. Most injuries are to the legs, arms and trunk then the head. In all the accidents I have had only one did my head hit anything. That was the one where I rear-ended the car and then I had only been riding for a few months.
Most of the time I end up on my back and sliding where other parts of my body had hit first. OH Funny Funny Funny having road rash from under my arm pit to the top of my pant’s waist band in August! Bandages did not stick so I ended up wearing a lady’s corset under my shirt till it healed ( still can not believe I rode off that cliff! AHHH can you‘e say dumb azz!).
But the point is and to be sure I like the feeling of riding without a Helmet over wearing one.

Short of internal ever injuries other then one to the head does heal on its own and are not life threaten.

Monkeyhawk, what are you rambling about? Have you people not read the statisics on motorcycle wrecks? More people are killed that wear helmets than those that do not.

“Coot” chimes in with –

“More people are killed that wear helmets than those that do not.”

Probably because most sane people wear helmets. And there are many ways to get killed in a motorcycle accident besides head injury.

Torture the numbers long enough and they’ll confess to anything.

well said Raptor

Just so you know, I have a bike and I do wear a helmet, it gives me that false sense of security. However, this discussion started this morning about the media and how they are quick to point out that so-and-so had a wreck and they werent wearing a helmet. Just as quick they are to point out if you were wearing your seatbelt or not.

“Coot” observes –

“…the media and how they are quick to point out that so-and-so had a wreck and they werent wearing a helmet. Just as quick they are to point out if you were wearing your seatbelt or not.”

Y’know, you sorta have a point there, “Coot.”

It’s one of those things they teach you in journalism school, to look for details. And, if you’re a reporter inclined to favor helmets for bike riders or seat belts for drivers, that little tidbit probably fits into the narrative.

And maybe it’s spurious information. As if the Eagle had reported, “Dennis Rader, a Registered Republican, is BTK!!!” or something.

I’m not one of those people who think that there should be a law against everything that might not be a good idea, but there are societal costs to some foolishness.

For all I care, do what you want. Build an airplane in your basement out of cardboard, whatever. But if you want me to finance the ambulance that picks up your carcass, maybe I have a right to expect that the FAA said the thing might be able to fly.

It’s quid pro quo.

Simple as that.

Agree Raptor. Most people who are screaming “helmet” dont ride. They think for some reason a helmet is like some bullet proof vest.

Jed, forgive me. Most of us dont have six friends, much less six friends who died in accidents, then on top of that, several others that were hurt. My apologies.

Regular, whats your point? Do helmets save lives, of course. Are they a cure all, absolutely not. Try this one on. Get in a car, put your seatbelt on, of course. Then hit a wall at 10 mph. Then try, 20, then 40. At 80 Mph that seatbelt wont help much.

My point is Coot, that an individual can rationalize anything to keep from wearing or using safety gear.

That is, until something happens.

fair enough

Coot,
“and whats worse than being killed?”

The guy I was referring to was a young writer with a wife and two small children and a lot of promise. He’d laid his bike down in an effort to avoid the Coors truck that ran over his head about a block from the ER. They used his helmet as a bucket to carry his brains into the hospital in a misguided attempt to stuff them back in his skull. The last time I saw him, about two years after, he was in a nursing home in a wheelchair, floating in morphine and screaming about how god hated him. He didn’t even know I was there.

Patronizing me doesn’t contribute anything to this discussion. Accusing me of being someone else is distasteful, and a reminder of why I have stayed away from this infantile blog for a while…and good reason to leave again. I had hoped that the registration might help elevate the level of discourse here. Obviously I was mistaken.

So, you are now resorting to Capn’s tactics of accusing someone of being a ‘troll’ rather than deal with the discussion points. Pathetic.

Good grief, How can so many people who have never ridden a motorcycle or worn a helmet have such passionate ideas about something that doesn’t matter much. I wear a helmet and a HANS dezice in my racer, also a firesuit and gloves and shoes. You gonna make the idiots in public wear any protection? Your car have not 15% of the protection that mine has, and you drive it further, and some try to drive as fast.

Call you a troll? Where did I do that?

You called him “Rage.” An honest mistake, perhaps?

Mary–

Ahhh…the old phony “taxpayer burden” theory? Do you have ANY thing to verify that? No, you don’t. Why do I know that? Because it is not true.”

Well, Raptor…when a person can’t work because he’s disabled…how long do you think his insurance through his former employer will last? Not his lifetime I’ll assure you. As soon as his assets and private insurance are used up, his health care becomes the taxpayer’s responsibility. That doesn’t take very long with the cost of health care today. What about that is hard for you to understand? People who have no income and use up their assets have to depend on Medicaid to pay for their care.
It doesn’t matter if he became disabled as a result of a car accident, a cycle accident, a drug overdose, whatever..eventually anyone who is disabled becomes an expense to those who pay into the tax system.

Coot, of course I’m willing to pay for other injuries. No, they don’t have to continue coverage when you are incapacitated. Why do you think they all end up on Medicare?

I’m an EMT, Coot, I’ve seen accidents, oh so many of them. Speed is the biggest factor. Safety gear comes into play at the slower speeds. Most people aren’t GOING the fastest rate of speed when they do finally crash.

I do realize that a helmet, nor a seatbelt are going to save every life. I’m one of those who is far more realistic. But there is far greater evidence that they do save lives.

I’ve even seen it in action.

The question isn’t whether helmets help with safety or not. It do you the want the government mandating safety? and where does it stop? do we mandate healthy diets and exercise for fat people? Outlaw tobacco and booze? Ban extreme sports, no more skydiving auto racing, bull-riding. mountain climbing, after there are thousands of unnecceary injuries and deaths associated with extreme activities

Folks, wearing a helmet is a choice. With that said I have been ridding since 1967. My dad ALWAYS made me wear a helmet. I started riding off-road, then moved on to street bikes. I started riding on the road by my self at age 15, on an old Honda Dream. I continued to by bigger and faster bikes. By the time I was a Freshman I was riding a 1000 Sportster.

By the time I was 18 I could decide to wear a helmet or not, by that time dad had given me the choice. Most often I still wore a helmet.

By 2008 I have over 400,000 miles on various street bikes, and untold hours on dirt bike 3 wheel ATV’s and Quads.

My latest bike that I bought is a brand new a Goldwing GL 1800. I have had this bike over 140mph.
Yes I had my helmet on at the time and I had a large stretch of blacktop road with no traffic. Was it safe to go that fast, my experience told me that it was in that exact circumstance?

A little bit about safety. First I wear armor when I ride, I wear gloves, and at night I wear a reflective vest, just like the military makes riders wear on post. During the day I leave the vest off and I have a headlight modulator that almost looks like it is flashing my high beams.
The reason for all of this is to let others see me.

Helmet or no helmet has never been the issue. When death occurs it just does. BUT here are the facts.

Deer’s are a problem. There are just too many of them especially on US 400.

Impaired drivers and riders are a problem

Untrained, inexperienced riders are a problem

And most of all inattentive drivers are the problem

When you ride, you must expect every driver around you wants to kill you. You must plan and be defensive.

Most of all the one lesson that my daddy taught me that will always stick with me when I ride, that is,

WHEN YOU THINK YOU HAVE MASTERED THE BIKE, THE BIKE WILL SHOW YOU WHO THE MASTER IS.

Stop beating the helmet issue it’s a dead horse!

Scooterdoc Ret. FF/EMT

Correction: Inability to stop arguing incessantly with Cosmos . . .

So Mary, how about mandating exercise and healthy diets for fat people? after all obesity is on the verge of overtaking smoking the leading cause of death. No doubt that obesity related conditions create a taxpayer burden for society, what a gastric bypass cost. all the major chain stores provide electric carts for for fat shoppers who lack the stamina to walk down the isle to get food, the stores dont provide them out of the kindness of their hearts they you pay for them thru pricing

Actually, Tom…mandateing exercise and healthy diets isn’t a bad idea. Maybe if it was law, I’d lose some weight!

CapnAmerica
Posted May 4, 2008 at 12:10 am | Permalink
BTW, Raptor, I didn’t just accuse Reguliar of nic-switching, I proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Regular/JM’s inability to argue incessantly with Cosmos about global warming provided me with about 90 percent of the evidence I needed.

However, the coup d’ grace was when Regular went into full PANIC! MELTDOWN! mode when someone posted his real name . . . and the only link to that name was through the old nic “JM” that Regular claimed he had never used.

Ah, good times . . . good times.
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Your day will come Crapn.

When I find out your real name and address. I will insure every “swinging Ricardo” knows what an Internet arch loch you are. I will post it here, on private Websites, notify your friends, family and anyone generally interested.

You will rue the day you even tested my will. The clock is ticking on the unrepentant CraponAmerica.

Mary,
Be careful; if you take their smokes away, they may go after your hamburger!

i am reminded of the Highway Patrol leaflet that was circulating around New Mexico a few years back. It was circulating in 2002, so must have referred to 2001 —

It said: 39% of traffic fatalities last year were NOT wearing safety belts.

I called a Trooper friend of mine after I saw the leaflet. I said: 39% of traffic fatalities last year were not wearing safety belts? He said — YEP THATS RIGHT…

I said: Well, that means 61% WERE wearing their safety belts… I think I will take my chances, at that rate… LOL

Mary…HLP is right in that if you are going to eat beef, at least get grassfed “organic” beef.

My dad raised all our meat…no hormones, antibiotics, etc. Same with chickens.

Fast food is the worst, nothing but chemicals.

The Farmer’sMarket at 21st and Ridge on the weekend I believe has organic beef.

Also Whole Foods at 21st and Maize.

Thanks, I’ll try those places out.

Hmmmm…this thread has made me think a little bit. I drive a scooter around the city to save on gas and reduce emissions, and I DO have a helmet, but I always have an excuse not to wear it–I like the wind in my hair, I’m running late, it’s too big to lug around, it’ll muss my hair, the bike only goes 35 mph, his house is really close….you get the idea.

But this:
“I have an idea…why don’t those of you who don’t believe in helmet safety find someone who has been seriously injured and/or disabled in a bike accident and ask them if they had it to do over again..would they wear a helmet or not?”

Yes, it made me think a little bit. I’d hate to look back and long for that second chance. Thanks Mary!

Glad I made you think, Tara. When I was a teenager, I had a good friend who took out a metal fence post with his head when he was struck by a car while riding through an intersection. His helmet was split in two with the impact, he broke both legs and was in the hospital for 3 weeks, but he saved his brain. He still rides a Harley today, and wouldn’t dream of going without his helmet.