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Alaska Will Sue to Block U.S. Listing of Polar Bears as ‘Threatened’
Thursday, May 22, 2008
Associated Press
ANCHORAGE, Alaska — The state of Alaska will sue to challenge the recent listing of polar bears as a threatened species, Gov. Sarah Palin announced Wednesday.
She and other Alaska elected officials fear a listing will cripple oil and gas development in prime polar bear habitat off the state’s northern and northwestern coasts.
Palin argued that there is not enough evidence to support a listing. Polar bears are well-managed and their population has dramatically increased over 30 years as a result of conservation, she said.
Climate models that predict continued loss of sea ice, the main habitat of polar bears, during summers are unreliable, said Palin, a Republican.
The announcement drew a strong response from the primary author of the listing petition.
“She’s either grossly misinformed or intentionally misleading, and both are unbecoming,” said Kassie Siegel of the Center for Biological Diversity. “Alaska deserves better.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357065,00.html
Mixup negates House override of farm bill veto
WASHINGTON (AP) — The House overwhelmingly rejected President Bush’s veto of a $290 billion farm bill Wednesday, but what was to have been a stinging defeat for the president became an embarrassing episode for Democrats.
Only hours before the House’s 316-108 vote, Bush had vetoed the five-year measure, saying it was too expensive and gave too much money to wealthy farmers when farm incomes are high. The Senate then was expected to follow suit quickly.
Action stalled, however, after the discovery that Congress had omitted a 34-page section of the bill when lawmakers sent the massive measure to the White House. That means Bush vetoed a different bill from the one Congress passed, leaving leaders scrambling to figure out whether it could become law.
Democrats hoped to pass the entire bill, again, on Thursday under expedited rules usually reserved for unopposed legislation. Lawmakers also probably will have to pass an extension of current farm law, which expires Friday
“We will have to repass the whole thing, as will the Senate,” said Rep. Louise Slaughter, D-N.Y. “We can’t let the farm bill just die.”
Republican leaders called for a farm bill do-over. The White House, almost gleefully, seized on the fumble and said the mixup could give Congress time to fix the “bloated” bill.
“We are trying to understand the ramifications of this congressional farm bill foul-up. We haven’t found a precedent for a congressional blunder of this magnitude,” said Scott Stanzel, a White House spokesman. “It looks like it may be back to square one for them.”
“In all likelihood, you have to redo this process,” said Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri, the No. 2 Republican and one of the 100 GOP lawmakers who broke with Bush in voting to override the veto. “I’d like to see a farm bill passed that no judge can say is not the farm bill.”
About two-thirds of the bill would pay for nutrition programs such as food stamps, about $40 billion is for farm subsidies, and $30 billion would go to farmers to idle their land and to other environmental programs
cont’d at
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/21/bush.farmbill.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
She’ll lose. How sad.
Hopefully with this kind of stunt, she’ll also lose the next election.
More fun with John McCain – does this tell us what kind of foreign policies he would follow?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24769387
McCain adviser rebuked for work with dictators
Clients included notorious rulers Savimbi, Marcos, Sese Seko, Siad Barre
Longtime uber-lobbyist Charles R. Black Jr. is John McCain’s man in Washington, a political maestro who is hoping to guide his friend, the senator from Arizona, to the presidency this November.
But for half a decade in the 1980s, Black was also Jonas Savimbi’s man in the capital city. His lobbying firm received millions from the brutal Angolan guerrilla leader and took advantage of Black’s contacts in Congress and the White House.
Justice Department records that Black’s firm submitted under the Foreign Agents Registration Act detail frequent meetings with lawmakers and their staffs and lavish spending by Black and his partners as they attempted to ensure support for Savimbi, whose UNITA movement was fighting the Marxist Angolan government.
“About two-thirds of the bill would pay for nutrition programs such as food stamps, about $40 billion is for farm subsidies, and $30 billion would go to farmers to idle their land and to other environmental programs”
WHy don;t we just put nutrition programs under general welfare, and make the farm bill about farming? IS it just too easy too hide the money spent that way?
lj – for the same reason we don’t put nuclear weapons costs under Dept of Defense (they are charged to Dept of Energy). It has to do with the history of the agencies and the fact that technologies and resources cross the lines.
Grandpa McCain gets it wrong . . . again.
“Yesterday, Time’s Joe Klein noted that he could find no evidence that Sen. Barack Obama had ever specifically said he would negotiate with Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
On Friday, I promised to check into whether Obama had ever said that he would negotiate–specifically, by name — with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Indeed, according to the crack Time Magazine research department and the Obama campaign, he never has. He did say that he would negotiate with the Iranian leadership — but, on matters of foreign policy and Iran’s nuclear program, the guy in charge is the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei.” From the Huffington Post.
And while McCain is whining that we be tougher on Cuba, his twin, Bush, has decided to allow cell phone service to Cuba. Good for him. Better to communicate than not.
GLOBAL COOLING UPDATE
“It is because solar influences have been discounted that the IPCC and climate modelers have been determined to attribute most of the observed warming during that period to an enhanced greenhouse effect caused by CO2 produced by human activity.
Consequently the climate models currently in use contain no solar effects as a component.
This article shows that they are wrong and that, in fact, solar energy is and always has been the overwhelming primary driver for global temperature with CO2 such a minor component that it should be ignored. Due to the differences in scale between the solar effect and the effect of CO2 the latter is only ever going to have a marginal effect at and around the peak of any natural warming trend and is unlikely to activate any tipping point that would not have been activated by natural cause. Indeed, during natural cooling spells CO2 will be a wholly beneficial mitigating factor.”….
…”On balance I would prefer to see evidence that CO2 has sufficient influence on our climate to mitigate the cooling threat that we have before us but I see none. All the temperature changes of the 20th Century are readily explicable without involving CO2 at all and the first decade of the 21st Century is continuing the pattern.
Indeed, I would very much like to be wrong but the evidence is not supportive of an imminent runaway warming. Would a responsible policy maker ignore everything I have said? All I have done is pull together information that is already available. What are all those think tanks and experts doing for their salaries ? If they already have evidence to disprove everything in this article and make me a laughing stock then let them produce it.”
http://www.rightsidenews.com/20080521994/global-warming/solar-energy-ocean-cycles-and-global-temperature.html
Political_mama
Posted May 22, 2008 at 6:53 am | Permalink
She’ll lose. How sad.
Hopefully with this kind of stunt, she’ll also lose the next election.
______________________________
So Political_mama you and the author of this article know more than the governor of Alaska. She knows they have just had their coldest winter in decades and the population of the polar bear is increasing and yet she is wrong and you are right.
How sad.
What is the problem with talking to Iran? Is it better to stand with our arms folded, cheeks puffed out like a spoiled pissed off 8 year old? Silence accomplishes nothing. Threats create problems.
So the McCain clan would rather not talk and try to escalate problems instead of talking? With McCain’s inexcusable ignorance of the region, he most assuredly should not talk to Iran. But someone should. State Dept?
It is absurd and isolationist to refuse to talk. Why is Iran our enemy? Why is Cuba our enemy? Why is Columbia our ‘friend’?
We are promising Saudi enriched uranium, but condemning Iran for the same thing. Our ‘best ally’ in the mid east – Israel – spies on us.
Trade with all, alliance (and embargoes) with none. Pretty simple.
As the news reports on the ailing Senator Kennedy continue, I am struck by one unassailable fact: The learned, elder statesman of today is not the same person as the careless, cossetted young man of the past.
I have heard him admit to as much: He has learned from the “mistakes of his personal life”; he has happily remarried; his longevity and political experience cannot be underestimated.
For all you fine, feral foke who trot out the afflicted Senator’s sins, I would encourage you to ponder this much: It is one thing to avoid sin. It is another thing entirely to avoid sin when faced with temptation. And possessed of untold wealth, as well as parents who encouraged a flock of flunkies to shield their children from responsibility.
Oh, and one other thing: We are all sinners. If any among you are sinless, then you wouldn’t be engaging in this sort of scornful derision at a time like this. That, in my view, is sinful in and of itself.
ohmigod. Israel is talking to Syria. Are Bush and Grandpa McCain going to be the only ones not talking, or are just BSing? The twins certainly seem to enjoy saber-rattling though.
Someone ask Sam Brownback if he renounces the latest absurd notions of his friend the Rev. John Hagee. Wasn’t it Sam, the former evangelical protestant cum recent convert to Hagee’s “Great Whore” who courted and cultivated Hagee’s endorsement? So, if his courtship of Hagee was “purely political pragmatism,” how about his conversion? How can he rationalize the irrational?
No politics or religion were harmed in the making of this post:
I’ve spent some amusing time reading about the Wichita RiverFest and Wichitan’s bi-polar response to it.
Why do some people absolutely HATE the event, even though they neither attend, sponsor, or live in an area affected by it? Why do others get moist at the mere thought of the Sundowner Parade?
I think a $5 button is a very good deal; about $0.63 per day. I can get my money’s worth just watching the crowd. The concerts and events are icing on the cake.
Those mourning the likely passing of the Antique Bathtub event need to come up with entrants and sponsors. WFI might keep the event if it can reliably pay it’s own way. A few hundred more fans on the riverbanks would be encouraging, too. I think there were some great ‘tubs’ this year.
Actually, the way to influence things with WFI is to write, email, or call them with ideas and if you include the phrase “I can help out” you’ll find yourself in the middle of the biggest party around.
If you know a Festival staffer, volunteer, or contractor, thank them for what they’ve done. If you contact an event sponsor, mention their River Fest support.
If you don’t care or wish the whole thing would just go away, I ask that you organize a similar event more to your liking. Wichita is big enough for another party!
Mr. Hew
Howza ’bout some equal rights for this fine fellow?
“A man who claims to have had sex with 1,000 cars has defended his “romantic” feelings towards vehicles.
Edward Smith, who lives with his current “girlfriend” – a white Volkswagen Beetle named Vanilla, insisted that he was not “sick” and had no desire to change his ways.”
Fleet,
The question is, how old is the VW and is this consensual?
Oh jesus wept, here we go already…
Exempting STATE officials from performing gay marriages because of their personal, religious beliefs?
hehehehhe.So… if a fundy doesnt believe in sex before marriage, he/she can refuse to marry a couple with a child born out of wedlock?
If he/she doesnt believe in interracial marriages, they can decline to perform them?
OMG. OMG, OMG, OMG! Bigotry at it’s finest.
Keep in mind, these are not religious officials, these are county employees.
Ok wingnuts, here ya go. Red meat.
But… but… does the VW give consent?? Is it “owned” by this freak, or is it a free “entity”?? Does he only do his thing with it when it is “heated up” or does he force it to do his will when it is still “cold”?? LOL
The guy needs help — LOTS of help!!
Hmmm, cant post the live link.
cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com
Try that to get to the video of this guy!
KFG — I think the only STATE officials who are permitted to perform marriages are Judges.
This sounds like the same kind of ploy as the pharmacists who wond prescribe birth control pills, on religious grounds.
Does the VW smoke afterwards?
KFG — Link is broke!!
A judge is sworn to uphold the law and the Constitution. If it is found to be Constitutional, then judges should either perform marriages for same sex couples, or step down. Period. As government officials, they have no choice, regardless of their own morals or beliefs.
Justice of the peace…
More incompetance from the Army Corps of Engineers:
IMPACT: Leaky New Orleans levee alarms experts
The Army Corps of Engineers has spent about $4 billion so far of the $14 billion set aside by Congress to repair and upgrade the metropolitan area’s hundreds of miles of levees by 2011. Some outside experts said the leak could mean that billions more will be needed and that some of the work already completed may need to be redone.
“It is all based on a 30-year-old defunct model of thinking, and it means that when they wake up to this one – really – our cost is going to increase significantly,” said Bob Bea, a civil engineer at the University of California at Berkeley.
http://www.kansas.com/wireupdates/story/411125.html
“It is all based on a 30-year-old defunct model of thinking”
The exact reason that the government should not be involved. Private companies R&D the latest and best technologies. Government workers do as little as possible.
Get the government out of your life and business. We will all be better for it.
SolDevVB
Posted May 22, 2008 at 11:26 am | Permalink
Justice of the peace…
********
NO longer an office in the state of Kansas, I believe
Chas, what I posted is not a live link. Cut and paste it or copy it onto your browser.
If that fails, it’s on the front page of Yahoo right now.
It’s in California, and their elective offices are different.
Thanks LJ.
OOoops!
U.S. helicopter strike kills 8 Iraqi civilians By Sabah al-Bazee
Thu May 22, 9:16 AM ET
BAIJI, Iraq (Reuters) – A U.S. helicopter airstrike on Wednesday night killed eight civilians, including two children, north of Baghdad, police officials said on Thursday.
ADVERTISEMENT
Colonel Mudhher al-Qaisi, police chief in the town of Baiji, said the attack was on a group of shepherds in a vehicle in a farming area. Relatives said some of those killed were fleeing on foot after the U.S. military arrived in the area.
“This is a criminal act. It will make the relations between Iraqi citizens and the U.S. forces tense. This will negatively affect security improvements,” Qaisi told Reuters.
A U.S. military spokeswoman, Lieutenant-Colonel Maura Gillen, said the helicopter fired after observing “suspicious activity.” She said the driver had ignored warnings to stop.
The incident is the latest in a string of U.S. airstrikes in which civilians have been killed.
The U.S. military has been trying to soothe tensions with Baghdad over a U.S. soldier using a copy of the Koran, the Muslim holy book, for target practice.
United Nations officials have expressed concern at the number of civilians killed in airstrikes in Iraq and said more care must be taken in military operations to protect them.
No sweat though, bus has promised Malaki to prosecute the troop that used the Quoran as target practice. All is well.
Damn, I dont know if me and mine can STAND this much progress all at once!
SEATTLE – The military cannot automatically discharge people because they’re gay, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday in the case of a decorated flight nurse who sued the Air Force over her dismissal.
The three judges from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals did not strike down the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. But they reinstated Maj. Margaret Witt’s lawsuit, saying the Air Force must prove that her dismissal furthered the military’s goals of troop readiness and unit cohesion.
The “don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t pursue, don’t harass” policy prohibits the military from asking about the sexual orientation of service members but requires discharge of those who acknowledge being gay or engaging in homosexual activity.
Wednesday’s ruling led opponents of the policy to declare its days numbered. It is also the first appeals court ruling in the country that evaluated the policy through the lens of a 2003 Supreme Court decision that struck down a Texas ban on sodomy as an unconstitutional intrusion on privacy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080522/ap_on_re_us/militar...
“
US Defends Imprisonment of Iraqi Youths
The US is defending its imprisonment of some 500 youths in Iraq. On Wednesday, the Pentagon said it maintains what it calls an “extremely robust” program to look after detained children. The American Civil Liberties Union has accused the Bush administration of holding the youths in violation of international standards. The US has joined Somalia as the only states to refuse to ratify the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child. Around 2,500 youths have been jailed in US prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo since 2002.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/22/headlines#1
Gitmo Prisoner Recounts Torture Ordeal in House Testimony
One of the first prisoners at Guantanamo Bay has testified before Congress on the abuse and torture he says he suffered in US custody. Speaking by satellite from Germany, Turkish citizen Murat Kurnaz told the House Foreign Affairs Committee he was beaten, given electric shocks, submerged in water, starved, and chained to a ceiling for days. Kurnaz also says he was forced to take medication and subjected to sexual and religious abuse. His case drew attention last year following the disclosure the US military held him for nearly five years despite privately acknowledging his innocence just months after his capture. Asked about Kurnaz’s congressional testimony, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said, “I can’t put it any more plainly than the President of the United States has put it, and he says the United States does not torture.”
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/22/headlines#1
Torture, killing civilians, and holding children hostage is OK:
“george
Posted May 22, 2008 at 7:07 am | Permalink
Killers of our young men do not deserve any special treatment, hang them and/or do what ever it takes to get the story out.”
Sol – Israel also holds meny children as hostages in it’s camps.
No fan of Israel Ben. Not at all.
“Killers of our young men do not deserve any special treatment, hang them and/or do what ever it takes to get the story out.”
OK, you just read that and thought of an American saying it.
Now read it again, and hear it coming from an Iraqi mother…
bth
Posted May 22, 2008 at 1:07 pm | Permalink
Sol – Israel also holds meny children as hostages in it’s camps.
——————————————-
SolDevVB
Posted May 22, 2008 at 1:19 pm | Permalink
No fan of Israel Ben. Not at all.
——————————————-
With all the Jew Haters around, it’s easier to understand how the Nazi’s came about.
bth
Posted May 22, 2008 at 1:07 pm | Permalink
Sol – Israel also holds meny children as hostages in it’s camps.
——————————————-
SolDevVB
Posted May 22, 2008 at 1:19 pm | Permalink
No fan of Israel Ben. Not at all.
——————————————-
Regular
Posted May 22, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink
With all the Jew Haters around, it’s easier to understand how the Nazi’s came about.
________________________________________
With child haters around…
Regular – questioning the policies of a state does not make one a Jew-hater.
Of course, coming from a child-hater like you …
If a “child” picks up a grenade launcher of which he has been trained by Al Qaeda or some other group and launches a grenade at your vehicle, killing your wife and children…
What are you supposed to do?
(A)Let him go because he is a child?
(B)Blame the Jews because it’s so much easier to make snarky, illogical statements?
(C)Do nothing and make appeasement talks by sending Osama Obama to talk to Al Qaeda?
(D)Put the child in prison as an aggressor and willful combatant?
Y’all sure get worked up over things you can’t influence or change. Blood pressure checks, anyone?
Mr. Hew
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) – A state appellate court has ruled that child welfare officials had no right to seize more than 400 children living at a polygamist sect’s ranch.
The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the grounds for removing the children were “legally and factually insufficient” under Texas law. They did not immediately order the return of the children.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90QRO280&show_article=1
—————
Gotta agree with that. There had to be a better solution for protecting the older children from marriage/sexual abuse than taking babies from women who had done nothing wrong.
I smell lawsuits.
Regular,
Don’t have kids do you? Probably best…
“…does not make one a Jew-hater.”
We already have one of those on this blog.
Who is Osama Obama? I assume that you hate him and anyone who shares his religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
With a picture of regular …
bth
Posted May 22, 2008 at 2:01 pm | Permalink
Who is Osama Obama? I assume that you hate him and anyone who shares his religion.
——————–
Just affectionally referencing Teddy Kennedy’s word usage of Osama Obama.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CLn7aeWThak
bth’s class reunion
http://www.nsm88.org/photos/congress06/img_0006_400.jpg
Bush responsible for higher debt
“The 75-22 vote also added billions of dollars in other domestic funds such as heating subsidies for the poor and money for fighting wildfires to funding for military operations overseas.
Shortly afterward, the Senate voted 70-26 to approve $165 billion to pay for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan into next spring, when Bush’s successor will set war policy. All told, the measure contains $212 billion over the coming two years, plus about $50 billion more through 2017 for veterans education benefits”
Bush responsible for higher debt load
“Administration officials have dashed hopes among farm-state lawmakers from both parties that President Bush will sign a nearly $300 billion farm bill that they finished Thursday.
The veto warning sets up an effort by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, joined by many farm-state Republicans, to override a veto and defend government payments to farmers earning record incomes even as food prices soar.”
“Most of the spending in the bill goes to food stamps, school lunches and other nutrition programs that will receive a $10.4 billion increase. Farm subsidies will cost about $40 billion a year, Peterson said.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Bullshit big spenders in Congress. Just tell the people that the President is spending money like a drunken sailor. Never mind that Congress actually controls the purse strings.
Throw ALL the bums sout!
“
Another Goodwin from regular
Great Deal, but Hurry Before the End of the Month!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357183,00.html
Missouri Car Dealer Offers Free Gun With Car Purchase
Thursday, May 22, 2008
Dear Hank Price,
Your link says,
“Stephen [Wilde] has been a Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society since 1968.”
Again, why isn’t Wilde listed as a “Fellow” at http://www.rmets.org/about/people/fellows.php
Hank Price’s expert(sic) claims: “… in fact, solar energy is and always has been the overwhelming primary driver for global temperature with CO2 such a minor component that it should be ignored.”
Nope.
Chapter 2 at http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm
“The combined anthropogenic RF [Radiative Forcing] is estimated to be +1.6 [–1.0, +0.8]2 W m–2, indicating that, since 1750, it is extremely likely3 that humans have exerted a substantial warming influence on climate.
This RF estimate is likely to be at least five times greater than that due to solar irradiance changes.
More re solar in section 2.7 of report.
jimmymac posted May 22, 2008 at 6:46 am
“Climate models that predict continued loss of sea ice, the main habitat of polar bears, during summers are unreliable, said Palin, a Republican.”
See graph,
‘PRESS RELEASE: Models Underestimate Loss of Arctic Sea Ice’
http://nsidc.org/news/press/20070430_StroeveGRL.html
‘Future Retreat of Arctic Sea Ice Will Lower Polar Bear Populations and Limit Their Distribution’
http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1773
“Scientists characterize their conclusions as conservative because even the best available models are believed to underestimate the actual decline in Arctic sea ice.”
jimmymac posted,
“I think Dr. Wilde is Canadian…”
Wilde does not seem to be a “Dr.”.
Stephen Wilde:
“I’ve been a Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society since 1968. Admittedly that was before a science qualification was required but I’ve been a weather and climate geek for over 50 years.”
Ben,
I see you are spreading your lies and hate about Israel as usual.
What children are being held “hostage” by Israel?
Stand by Nathan, Ben is putting on his cosmos hat.
Cosmos,
So what were humans doing in 1750 to cause Global Warming?
What does “extemely likely” mean? Doesn’t sound too scientific to me.
Nathan,
Why don’t you just read Chapter 2 at http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm
“extremely likely3″ 3 = footnote 3
“3 The use of ‘extremely likely’ is an example of the calibrated language used in this document, it represents a 95% confidence level or higher; ‘likely’ (66%) is another example (See Box TS.1).”
Nathan,
There were 700 million people on Earth in 1750. Less people, but they were burning all that wood back then.
And the cows, there were still cows farting.
Well, well, well: the House Judiciary Committee has voted out a subpeona for Karl Rove to testify regarding the White House’s firing of U.S. Attorneys, and the prosecution of Gov. Don Siegelman (D-AL).
“May 22, 2008
House Panel Subpoenas Rove
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 2:34 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON (AP) — The House Judiciary Committee has subpoenaed former White House adviser Karl Rove as part of its inquiry into whether the Bush administration politically meddled at the Justice Department.
Accusations of politics governing decisions at the agency led to the resignation of former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.
The subpoena issued Thursday orders Rove to testify before the House panel on July 10. He is expected to face questions about the White House’s role in firing nine U.S. attorneys in 2006 and the prosecution of former Gov. Don Siegelman of Alabama, a Democrat.
House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers had negotiated with Rove’s attorneys for more than a year over whether the former top political adviser to President Bush would testify voluntarily.”
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-RoveSubpoena.html?_r=1&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print
Good. Let the pig testify, under oath, before the TV cameras. And if he refuses to appear, arrest his sorry fat ass for contempt of Congress.
nathan – among the thousands of Palestinians Israel holds are many children. Your blind hatred of Palestinians prevents you from seeing that.
Ben,
The question was, who are they holding as hostage.
I have no doubt that there are children being held. How does that make them Hostages?
It is the untruthful language you use Ben which makes the difference.
And by the way Muslim-hater Nathan, I do NOT hate Israel so stop with your malicious lies. I believe that Israel’s security will be enhanced with well-defined defendable borders.
Stolen Youth: The Politics Of Israel’s Detention Of Palestinian Children
First in-depth account of how Israel imprisons Palestinian children, which is part of an overall strategy of political domination
http://www.theacademiclibrary.com/titles.asp?libcode=PLC%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&num=40&listby=autsname
So, Nathan, by your definition a soldier that has been captures is a hostage but civilians are not? You and other refer to Israeli soldiers who have been captures as kidnapped hostages.
Thanks sol. Of course, since they are Palestinians they are already sub-human.
/sarcasm off
It is the untruthful language you use Ben which makes the difference.
It would appear there is plenty of truth…
Ben,
If you want soemone to stop saying you hate Israel, then stop lying about Israel.
And, you shouldn’t call people names in the very sentence you are asking them to stop doing the same to you.
1750 is the approximate starting time of the Industrial Revolution.
“And, you shouldn’t call people names in the very sentence you are asking them to stop doing the same to you.”
You are correct; I should not have followed your lead.
“then stop lying about Israel.”
No lies; only truth.
Ben and/or Sol,
Please show me these Hostages and how they are Hostages.
A link to a book I can’t read isn’t proof.
And evidently, the DOJ’s office of Professional Responsibility has notified Representative Conyers that THEY, also, have been investigating the White House’s use of U.S. Attorneys to selectively prosecute Democrats such as Don Siegelman, Georgia Thompson, Oliver Diaz, and Paul Minor.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/opr-conyers/?resultpage=1&
I await your de riguer response Wingnuts: “U.S. Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the President.” Except that now, the issue isn’t that of whether or not the President had the authority to fire: the question is what he used the threat of firing to get them to do in their official capacity, and how he sought out candidates who would engage in illegal and malicious prosecutions.
Why so quiet, Wingnuts? Waiting to see what Rush Limbaugh says? Or Michelle Malkin?
nathan – among the thousands of Palestinians Israel holds are many children. Your blind hatred of Palestinians prevents you from seeing that.
thousands? Your wording over dramatizes the problem.
There is an estimate of 350-400 children (16 to 18 years considered an adult in Israel) in detention or awaiting trial.
How many (16-18 years olds) are in Kansas Juvenile dedetention centers? There were almost 8,000 16 and 17 years old arrested and detained in Kansas.
So what bth is saying that there are no problems with juveniles in Israel or Palestine and no one 16-17 years old should ever be arrested by Israelis.
“the question is what he used the threat of firing to get them to do in their official capacity, and how he sought out candidates who would engage in illegal and malicious prosecutions.”
NO, the question is IF he used and if he sought out candidates.
CF2K,
What part of “impending investigations and allegations” that the one page document you referenced did not understand?
Do you need help in defining “impending” and “allegations?”
Palestinian women and children in Israeli imprisonment
rtsf.wordpress.com/category/children/
more than 400 of the detained are children
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/release-11000-palestinians-in-israeli-jails
UN envoy: Israel’s imprisonment of PA children feeds violence
childrenunderfire.wordpress.com/
Sol,
I think you are not getting it.
I am not denying that “Children” are being held Israel.
It is Ben’s calling them Hostages that I am questioning.
What makes them Hostages? Your proof?
Being a Hostage is much different than simply being a prisoner.
Have you ever thought, that just maybe, if the Palestinian terrorists would stop using children to attack Israel then they wouldn’t be taken prisoner?
Just a thought.
What cowards send their children to blow them selves up and to kill Israeli civilians and then turn around and cry about the humanity of children being held prisoner for their actions?
Exactly Nathan.
In Kansas, where almost 8,000 16-17 years were arrested and detained, they are juvenile detainees.
If they are Palestinian and about 400 are arrested for crimes, they suddenly become hostages.
So nathan – are israeli soldiers being held by Palestinians or Lebanese hostages as the US says ot are they prisoners?
Ans Palestinians tried stopping the resistence. It did not result in their freedom.
“Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists’ kids”
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90QRO280&show_article=1
What…the government can’t just march in, kidnap kids, break up families, scare the heck out of everybody, ignoring their civil rights, whenever they like just because they suspect something or don’t like it they are different.
I’m not in anyway supporting child abuse, but I knew from the start the government had NO justification to do what they did. I hope they get sued up one side and down the other for this.
Nathan – Palestinian children get shot or ‘arrested’ if they throw a rock at an occupier.
Ben,
Nice deflection. It depends on “why” someone is being held.
An Israeli Soldier or any Soldier can only be held as POW. If they were captured by someone, they should be treated as POW’s and treated accodingly.
If the governments or those holding the Soldiers are making demands before they are released when those Soldiers didn’t do anything other than their job as Soldiers then, yes, you could say they are being held Hostage.
The meaning of the word.
Now, how are those “Children” being held Hostage bu Israel?
Why so quiet, Wingnuts? Waiting to see what Rush Limbaugh says? Or Michelle Malkin
——————-
Did somebody say something? I thought I heard something. It sounded, well, kind of small and shrill, yet confrontational… hmmm….
I guess not.
Just kidding CF. Come back when ya got something more than an investigation and we will talk about those scoundrels.
Ben,
If the neighborhood children were thorwing rocks at you and your family would you expect the police to do something about it?
What children are still being held as prisoner by Israel for only throwing rocks?
Examples please.
What children have been shot for throwing rocks?
Examples please.
How many of the “children” held by Israel were shooting and/or bombing Israel?
bth
Posted May 22, 2008 at 3:43 pm | Permalink
Nathan – Palestinian children get shot or ‘arrested’ if they throw a rock at an occupier.
——————
Weasel words
“get shot”
“occupier”
Such a narrowed view and tries to pose a loaded question.
“If the neighborhood children were thorwing rocks at you and your family would you expect the police to do something about it?”
A non sequitor. They are not in my neighborhood; they are being occupied by a hostile military.
“An Israeli Soldier or any Soldier can only be held as POW.”
Both palestine and Lebanon have captured Israeli soldiers. We have called them hostages.
Ben,
Did you stop to even read my post?
If a soldier is being held until certain demands are met, then they are hostages.
Now, are you ever going to answer the question Ben?
HOW are the children being held by Israel Hostages?
The only non sequitor I see here is bth defending known terrorist and terrorist sponsored activity whose only agenda is hate and the elimination of the State of Israel.
Kill them Jews, right bth?
Woo Hoo!
KKKarl Rove testifying under oath!
You get ‘em for the crime or you get ‘em for lying or both.
It’s a win-win situation . . .
defending known terrorist and terrorist sponsored activity
Please prove that the childdren being held are terrorists.
Weasel words indeed.
“A man who claims to have had sex with 1,000 cars has defended his “romantic” feelings towards vehicles.
A whole new meaning to “Honk if you are horny!”.
What slays me about these fundo-Christians like Nathan is that they seem to be completely unaware that about ten percent of the Palestinians are Christians.
Too bad about them. “End Times” superstition demands that Israel must conquer its ancestral home so that the rapture can come.
And thus is God reduced to a real-estate broker.
CapnAmerica,
I would like to point out that you have just violated the agreement.
You have brought into question my Christian views and are now attacking my beliefs.
So, please don’t cry about how I question your Christianity any more when I do.
outlander,
Did somebody say something? Sounded kind of smug, defensive, and breezy in a forced kind of way.
“Come back when ya got something more than an investigation and we will talk about those scoundrels.”
Well, if that were the metric, outlander, then why haven’t you Wingnuts and your ilk finally shut up about Whitewater and Vince Foster?
Should be fun watching Rove try to argue Executive Privilege, and then being held in contempt by the House Judiciary.
CapnAmerica,
I am very aware that there are Christians in Palestine. That has nothing to do with Ben being a liar and saying that Israel is holding Children as Hostage.
The “End Times” is not a superstition. Do you not believe that Jesus will come again?
I don’t know of any major view on the “End Times” which calls for Israel to conquer it’s ancestral home either.
Could you point which End Times view you are talking about?
Otherwise, your post is just full of crap as usual.
“HOW are the children being held by Israel Hostages?”
They are being held until the Palestinian people meekly submit to subjugation. Thus it always becomes when a people are occupied and subjugated by another people.
If they were being held as prisoners the red cross would be given access. They are not. Israel’s reasoning is that since they are israeli subjects their treatment is an internal affair.
Regular – as usual you are full of sh*t. I would say precisely the same thing about any other military occupying a people regardless of their religion. I have said very simialr things about the Zimbabwe government and the Myanmar government.
Kill them Palestinians, right regular?
The Crapn is not a man of his word Nathan.
He’s said more than once that he would not bother me about being other posters (nic-switching) after he found conclusive proof through Brownlee and other sources.
Of course, we know how long that lasted.
“I don’t know of any major view on the “End Times” which calls for Israel to conquer it’s ancestral home either.”
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/profile.html
Increasingly, some American evangelical Christians have emerged to form an alliance with Israel. Citing Biblical prophecy, this group of evangelicals call for all of the West Bank to remain in Israeli hands, and they oppose any two-state solution. Sometimes called Christian Zionists, they believe that a Christian Messiah will return to earth in Jerusalem. They have joined with conservative Israeli politicians to oppose any division of the city.
Ben,
When has Israel issued those demands that, “the Palestinian people meekly submit to subjugation?”
Where are you getting this information from?
Seems like you are still pulling out more crap from your rear end to support your hate of Israel.
Go figure.
A hostage is someone being held until certain demands are met.
When has Israel issued demands to be met which are the condition for the release of those children?
Regular – as usual you are full of sh*t. I would say precisely the same thing about any other military occupying a people regardless of their religion. I have said very simialr things about the Zimbabwe government and the Myanmar government.
Let the arm flailing commence.
uh huh. Okay.
Are we talking about Myanmar or Zimbabwe?
Please try and focus on the discussion at hand.
What were you saying about Israeli subjects? Wasn’t aware that there was any royalty structure in Israel.
What we have hear folks, is bth doing a Chas-ism. Avoiding the questions, evading the issues and bringing up things that are absolutely irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
Next it will be capital letters and exclaimation points.
Ben,
Your post was missing the call for Israel to conquer it’s ancestral home.
That is the part I disagree with.
Though dispensationalists fine-tuned their prophetic interpretations as needed over time, they retained their core belief about the role of Jews in the last days. For over 100 years, their insistence on the restoration of the Jewish state in the Holy Land seemed far-fetched. But after the founding of Israel in 1948 and its expansion after the Six-Day War, dispensationalists promoted their ideas with the confidence that Bible prophecy was being fulfilled for all to see. Starting in the 1970s, dispensationalists broke into the popular culture with runaway best-sellers, and a well-networked political campaign to promote and protect the interests of Israel.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/151/story_15165_1.html
Regular,
I knew it wouldn’t last. It never does. I have made this agreement several times.
It never fails, Chas will make fun of my father or I for our beliefs within a week, as usual.
Then, when I start questioning their faith, they will cry as usual.
They are Hypocrites. They can dish it out, but they can’t take it.
I honestly don’t mind. I am able to defend my faith, my views, and do not hide from questions like they do.
Just about the time I start to hand CapnAmerica his rear end in any discussion is the time he will ignore me and cry that everyone should ignore me too.
Here we are… look who fired the first shot after our agreement?
CapnAmerica!
Watch as all the little liberals rally around and won’t say one word to him, but the second I start to question his beliefs they will all cry.
Nathan – I think they are referring to “Judea and Samaria” – in other words the West Bank that Bush claims is the key to the two-state solution – which they clearly oppose.
And, of course, we have Parsley who wants war against Iran.
John McCain’s pastor Hagee on the “End Times” in an interview with Glenn Beck.
BECK: Thank you. I want to talk to you tonight about the things that people in the sane world just don`t say, and that is we`re living in the end times. You believe that.
HAGEE: I do indeed. And I believe the Bible is very specific to the fact that we do live in the end of days.
BECK: OK. I want to get into the — I want to get into the top ten things of, you know, what makes you say — I mean, because people have been saying that forever.
HAGEE: Yes.
BECK: They`ve been saying, oh, you know — the apostles said if Jesus is coming back — they thought he was coming back right away. We`re 2,000 years down the line, and he still hasn`t come back. So what makes you think that we`re living in the end days?
HAGEE: Well, there are ten Bible signs that we`re living in the end of days. The Bible is the most phenomenal book that`s ever been written, because when it was written 25 percent of it was prophetic, telling the future. And these signs about the end of days do not require a theological knowledge.
So people who are watching this show, say, “Well, I don`t have Bible knowledge.” You — if you read a newspaper, you`re going to get this.
The first sign is the knowledge explosion. Daniel 12, the fourth chapter, God said to Daniel, “I want you to shut up the book until the time of the end.” That`s a very important phrase. The end of days, when men shall run to and from and there will be a knowledge explosion.
From the Garden of Eden until the 20th century there was no knowledge explosion. In transportation people rode horses just as David, Julius Caesar, George Washington.
And then came the car, the jet, put people on the moon. We are that generation that`s having the knowledge explosion.
The same thing has happened in communication. From the Garden of Eden to the 20th century there was no differentiation. Then we came to the ability of telegraph, telephone, television, teleroaming (ph). You can reach somebody on an airplane…
BECK: Right.
HAGEE: … talking to them.
And now in the field of medicine, from the Garden of Eden to the 20th century, now with medicine we`ve had to redefine death because we can literally keep someone alive on stimulants indefinitely.
BECK: OK. So the first sign is…
HAGEE: The knowledge explosion.
BECK: Knowledge explosion. Second sign.
HAGEE: Second sign is the rebirth of Israel. This is a very obvious sign.
BECK: How did — how did the people early on miss this one? I mean, that`s a very important sign, and that didn`t happen until Israel was re- established. So how did everybody else say, “Oh, yes, forgot about that one”?
HAGEE: Well, it had to do with the time that they were living in and the theological environment in which they were raised.
My father, who was a Bible preacher, in the middle `40s made this statement: “If the state of Israel is not reborn, we have a reason to believe the Bible is not true.”
And believe me, for my father, who was a Bible scholar, that was a monumental statement.
And the Bible speaks, when the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Give us the signs of the end of time. When will the end of the world be?”
And I want to say when we talk about the end of the world, it`s the end of the world as we know it.
BECK: Right.
More of this ridiculous drivel at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1910746/posts.
Ben,
Alright now, lets not get too distracted here.
HOW are those children being held by Israel Hostages?
I don’t see Israel defending it’s self from attack and keeping land in that War as calling for Israel to conquer it’s ancestral home.
CapnAmerica
Posted May 22, 2008 at 4:22 pm | Permalink
More of this ridiculous drivel at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1910746/posts.
****************************
Can;t get the link to work
“(nic-switching)”
JM.
Republikhan.
Kansas.
Republican.
James McCluer.
Regular.
Blog Monitor.
And the list goes on…………………………….
Right, BTH.
Never mind that every time Jesus talks about the “end times,” he says that “this generation will not pass away before everything is fufilled.” Usually he’s forced to talk about “end times” by the aposotles who he says “don’t understand the present let alone the future.
Millenial dispentionalism is another kind of heresy–”we’re so important that we get to usher in the end times.”
Utterly ridiculous.
Ah, here comes the drunkard WS Clark.
To add zero to the discussion other than harassment and personal attack.
zip nada nothing
CapnAmerica,
No comment about how you fired the first shot since our agreement?
“To add zero to the discussion other than harassment and personal attack.”
Listing your “previous nicknames” is a “personal attack?”
That is harassment?
Damn, McCluer, you are a real sensitive boy.
Reasonable discussion is over Nathan.
The blogladytes are crawling out from underneath their rocks.
Here’s what Wiki says, “Dispensationalism is known for its views respecting the nation of Israel during this millennial kingdom reign, in which Israel as a nation plays a major role and regains a king, a land, and an everlasting kingdom. Dispensationalism is also uniquely associated with belief in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.”
Dispensationalism has come to dominate the American Evangelical scene, especially among nondenominational Bible churches, many Baptists, and most Pentecostal and Charismatic groups.
I’m glad to hear, Nathan, that you don’t buy into all this Jerry Falwall-Tim LaHaye BS . . .
Blog Monitor is not me.
And the other names are my initials and currently my Typepad blog names.
Notice that Capn’s rantings have zero to do with the original discussion about detainees being called hostages.
Typical,
divert with pure unassociated and meaningless b.s.
I see that Senator McCain finally denounced Jew hater Hagee who praised god for Hitler and the Holocaust.
Hate to break it to McCain, but Hagee’s views are shared by a lot of fundy Christians in America, especially those who support the American holy war in the Middle East.
Okay, LittleJ–
Try this:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0710/12/gb.01.html
CapnAmerica,
Once again, no comment on how you fired the first shot since our agreement?
I just wish that politicians would allow God to defend his own piece of real-estate. Then our soldiers won’t get stuck in their stupid Jihad wars.
It looks like most of the world has pulled their head out of their a**.
Now we just have to get Isaac and Ishmael BOTH to stop acting like stupid idiots.
Regular,
And Ben, probably will never return to actually defend his assertion that those children are being held as “Hostages” either.
Rejoice! Capn America has it figured out. Prophesy that has puzzled biblical scholars for generations. Here it is, the answer, in condensed form from the pen of CapnAmerica:
“Forget about it”. Chuckle…
On vacation for 10 days. Peace, OUT.
Nathan–
I don’t consider the fundamentalists politicizing the Bible to support the fascist Zionist-entity a discussion of “religion.”
But if that is your “religion,” well, then own up to it . . .
Enjoy, VET! Back at ya.
THanks. That link works.
“Blog Monitor is not me.”
I was not referring to the current blogmonitor” I was noting your previous stint as “Blog Monitor.”
So, McCluer, how can you accuse someone else of being a “nic switcher” when you yourself are the all time King of Nic Switchers?
Eh?
ksfarmgrrl,
I don’t know what you’ve been chewing on, and don’t want to know, but chew on this for awhile. I’m only sending you this because you seem to be inviting a response in your posts above.
Marriage, defined man/woman, deserves more because it gives more. The continued provision of preferential support for married parents with children over other types of unions is vital for society.
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/marriage_deserves_more_because_it_gives_more/
“Society has a vested interest in promoting only traditional marriage. Men and women are not interchangeable, and same-sex unions—no matter how devoted and enduring—cannot take the place of a married husband and wife. The ESSENTIAL FUNCTION OF MARRIAGE IS TO UNITE MALE AND FEMALE. That is the ONLY kind of union that can PRODUCE NEW LIFE, and therefore the ONLY KIND OF UNION IN WHICH SOCIETY HAS A SURVIVAL STAKE.” —Jeff Jacoby
“Over the centuries in Western civilization, public policy has recognized the vital role of the family that the heterosexual family needed to be protected and defended in the law, because it provided crucial benefits for the well-being of society and family. That is different than a question of civil rights.” —Chuck Colson
You remind me of the guy in the movie who has lost both arms and legs, his extremities cut off in battle, yet still pointlessly, mindlessly spouting threats at his physically whole adversary like the fool he is but soon to be no more at all.
Society, some approx. 44 States now, have defined in Constitution and or Statute the only meaning of marriage, as man and woman, which our founders, and those up till, now never imagined was necessary as the meaning was so universally understood by all even the homosexuals and more will follow. Society can and does extend benefits and make law specific to lots of things, taxes, benefits, age, qualifications, and on and on.
You lose on this, just get on with your life. I am, and hopefully leaving this topic as this has now becoming rather boring and like a near corpse, with no arms or legs to fight with, and is no longer challenging to argue with you over.
outta here for the night. Ya’ll have fun and come back now, ya hear!
Nathan writes: I don’t know of any major view on the “End Times” which calls for Israel to conquer it’s ancestral home.
Ben writes: Increasingly, some American evangelical Christians have emerged to form an alliance with Israel. Citing Biblical prophecy, this group of evangelicals call for all of the West Bank to remain in Israeli hands . . .
I post Hagee’s quotes: Second sign is the rebirth of Israel. This is a very obvious sign.
“If the state of Israel is not reborn, we have a reason to believe the Bible is not true.”
And Wiki’s excellent article: “Dispensationalism is known for its views respecting the nation of Israel during this millennial kingdom reign, in which Israel as a nation plays a major role and regains a king, a land, and an everlasting kingdom.”
So, now you don’t get to feign ignorance anymore, Nathan.
CapnAmerica,
You specifically attacked me based on my Christianity you fool.
“What slays me about these fundo-Christians like Nathan is that they seem to be completely unaware that about ten percent of the Palestinians are Christians.”
There was nothing about this discussion which involved you calling me a fundo-Christian.
So, now will you own up to violating the agreement?
Or at least stop crying when I question you on your belief?
WSClark
Posted May 22, 2008 at 4:52 pm | Permalink
“Blog Monitor is not me.”
I was not referring to the current blogmonitor” I was noting your previous stint as “Blog Monitor.”
So, McCluer, how can you accuse someone else of being a “nic switcher” when you yourself are the all time King of Nic Switchers?
Eh?
———————–
I’ve never been Blog Monitor in any form or on any blog, including this one.
As I said, my initials and my typepad names you listed are still current and are in use on my own blog.
So what’s your problem other than you like to stir up crap?
You always have to take a shot at me don’t you? You can’t discuss because everytime you try to you get your ass handed to you because you argue from empty rhetoric.
Pathetic, lonely old drunk you are. Your only reason to live is booze. Now that’s sad.
Boxlock–
The “sacred” institution of marriage has changed radically from society to society and from time to time.
In ancient pre-Christian societies, virginity was not esteemed. Fecundity was. So a woman who had a child already had proved her ability to bear and was a more valued wife.
When males began seeing wives as property, virginity was part of the deal. In Shakespeare’s time, marriage was seen as a contractual agreement–so the engagement was actually more important than the marriage, for that’s when the contract was entered into.
Nowadays, with people living into their 90’s and 100’s and and with effective birth control available, the child-bearing/child rearing role of marriage is only one of its functions.
It’s ludicrous to cite child bearing as the rationale against same-sex marriage. You’d have to outlaw marriage for any woman over about 45 then . . .
Sorry, Nathan.
Fundo-Christian is not a debate about religion.
It’s a debate about the political consequences that you Fundo-Christians try to justify by a heretical reading of The Bible.
BTW, what agreement?
WSClark,
You left off jimmymac’s (blank) ‘ ‘ nic, after he changed his TypeKey acct to make his nic = ‘JM Walker’.
And also something like ** K H A N **.
Regular writes that Clark’s “only reason to live is booze.”
As opposed to your reason to live, Regular?
I’m already dead to this world cosmos. If you know your Bible, you know what I’m saying. :)
er Capn, not cosmos
Attack wimps hiding behind their screen names are out, time to bring the cows from the back 40 in and head to the barn.
jimmymac has hidden behind multiple screen names.
So that’s how you justify indolence, eh, Regular?
Oh well, the causes for which you’d likely get involved would make the world worse for them, so it’s just as well you stay where you are . . .
There are innumerable galaxies in this vast universe—more than one could count in many lifetimes.
Each of those galaxies contains billions of stars, and around those stars are, as scientists have discovered recently, many planets of various sizes and compositions. Some of these planets even seem to have organic compounds. So, could there be life somewhere in that unfathomable depth of space?
Creation Astronomy
What Are We Looking For?
When we contemplate life on other planets, what are we really looking for? Many believe that some alien culture will tell us the secrets of our purpose in this universe; others believe that these space beings hold the key to health and eternal life; and some even claimed to hear from our “space brothers.”
Could it be that some are searching so diligently for extraterrestrial life because they are hoping to find some form of salvation from the stars—longer life, health, peace, or even identity? Some search “out there” because they think they can’t find those things here.
Seeking in Vain
Although it is often easy for us to dismiss reports of UFOs or alien encounters, perhaps instead of dismissing them outright, we should look to the underlying assumptions and needs of those who make such claims. Many have been taught that life arose on this planet spontaneously and evolved into complex organisms. If it happened here, they believe, surely it could happen elsewhere in the universe. They also believe that since life evolved, there is no purpose or hope for them beyond what they can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell; when they die, that’s all there is. These aliens and UFOs are their hope for something beyond themselves.
Many of these sightings are attributable to phenomena and objects simply unknown to the viewer (although there may be some with a more sinister origin), but why are many willing to see UFOs and aliens without first considering more mundane sources? Perhaps it is because they, like all of us, are desperate to find something bigger than ourselves to reveal the things we do not know. But what if those answers have already come? What if the mystery and purpose of life has already been revealed? What if our hope is already here?
Our Hope
Thousands of years ago, men were inspired by God to record the history, purpose, and plan for humankind. They were inspired to write the words of One who is not from this world—the One who knows us because He created us and created the universe.
Despite His kindness to us and His gift of a perfect creation to have dominion over, we rebelled against Him nearly from the beginning (and still rebel against Him today). But, because of His love and mercy, He did not just leave us to our self-destruction.
Four thousand years later, in a moment He planned before He created the earth, this Creator did come down to us—not from the stars, but from His throne in heaven—to lay down His life to reclaim and restore His lost, rebellious children. He defeated death so that all who believe in Him should have everlasting life. This God-man, Jesus Christ, is the hope that all of us are looking for—and the only hope we need.
When people look to the stars for life, they are missing the greatest offer ever given. God created the earth and the people who live here to be the recipients of His grace, love, and plan for restoration, to His glory. There is Someone “out there,” and He has offered Himself as a sacrifice so that we can join Him in perfection and incomprehensible joy forever.
Don’t just wonder. Get answers.
Good news in Iraq? Let’s hope so:
“BAGHDAD — Iraqi security forces entered Baghdad ’s Sadr City in large numbers on Tuesday for the first time since followers of anti-American cleric Muqtada al Sadr agreed two weeks ago to let them in.
No U.S. troops accompanied the Iraqi forces. The agreement specifically barred Americans from entering the Shiite Muslim enclave.
In a symbolic gesture, representatives of Sadr and a group of tribal sheiks met the Iraqi forces with a copy of the Quran, the Islamic holy book, to welcome their presence into the city.
Sadr City was the scene of sharp clashes pitting U.S. troops and Iraqi government forces against Sadr’s Mahdi Army militia for nearly two months. Hundreds of people were killed in the clashes, including scores of civilians caught in the crossfire. Hundreds more were wounded.
“The situation now is very quiet in Sadr City, you can find the Iraqi Army in the streets,” said Nima Abu Zahra, a spokesman for Sadr in Sadr City. “So far, there’s no problem, the Iraqi forces are welcome.”
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/117/story/37787.html
“Never mind that every time Jesus talks about the “end times,” he says that “this generation will not pass away before everything is fufilled.””
That is problematic to the apologists. No doubt about it.
So that’s how you justify indolence, eh, Regular?
Oh well, the causes for which you’d likely get involved would make the world worse for them, so it’s just as well you stay where you are . . .
——————————–
Who said anything about justification?
I just gave a reason for my status and philosophy.
Pathetic, lonely old drunk you are”. Your only reason to live is booze. Now that’s sad.”
Actually, McLiar, I have three wonderful children and two grandchildren. The adults are true liberals and my oldest granddaughter shows all signs of being a liberal when she grows up.
Now with you, McCluer………….
Have you ever been married – one of your nics claims that you have – the other – nope.
Do you have any children – one of your nics claims that you have – the other – nope.
Did you serve in Viet Nam – one of your nics claims that you have – the other – nope.
Are you JM – one of your nics claims that you are – the other – nope.
Well, what is the truth, McCluer, and what is a lie?
By the way, McLiar, I don’t drink booze – I am strictly a beer drinker.
I’ve SEEN James.
I don’t think he gets out much.
But that’s not why I’m here.
I got some evolving evolution.
John McCain went looking for the endorsement of fundamenalist Pastor Hagee.
He got that endorsement.
THEN he found out Hagee was a barking loon.
SO he denied ever seeking the endorsement.
Yesterday, it was revealed Hagee believes Hitler was God’s gift to the Jews!
TODAY McCain has openly denounced the endorsement of Hagee.
Who he courted for over a year, back at the beginning of this story.
Is Senator Clinton the only candidate without a religious nut in her closet?
Enough of altered states.
For now.
Let’s talk key states.
New polls. Florida Senator McCain leads Senator Obama. But Senator Clinton beats McCain.
Ohio. McCain leads Obama and loses to Clinton.
Pennsylvania. Obama leads McCain. But only by a few points. Senator Clinton is out polling McCain there in double digits.
It aint over. Til it’s over.
Capn posts;
“Nowadays, with people living into their 90’s and 100’s and and with effective birth control available, the child-bearing/child rearing role of marriage is only one of its functions.”
That may well be for individuals, but not for society, and not for society and government to extend benefits other than to man/woman marriages, not to man/man, woman/woman whatever.
“I’ve SEEN James.”
Damn, I am sorry. From everything I have heard, that has to be a real traumatic event.
Are you okay?
That must be like seeing the Loch Ness Monster, but no one will believe that it was that ugly.
Damn.
Supporting something that benefits society as a whole? Like solid relationships where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts? Where partners love and care for each other and their children? And they… wait for it… SHARE economic and social benefits?
Sounds like socialism to me. And a PERFECT description of gay AND straight marriage.
hee hee hee heeeeeee.
I love it when the wingnuts here hate socialism.
Until they dont!
And quoting a religious blog and CHUCK COLSON, one of the convicted watergate felons does NOT add to the credibility of your posts.
Face it boxlick. You have a law permitting marriage “because you want to”. There is NO secular argument against gay marriage. Only religious ones.
You sound like huckabee wanting to amend the constitution to reflect the bible. I think that went out with the scopes monkey trial.
But please, keep posting this bigoted and nonsensical crap. You make my case for me much better than I.
farmgrrl, you OK? Storms look ferocious. Hope you and your tiny plants get great rains and nothing more.
City Council votes to negotiate contract with Salerno
The Wichita City Council voted unanimously this afternoon to negotiate a contract with city manager candidate Pat Salerno. Salerno, who worked as the city manager of Sunrise, Fla., for nearly 18 years before being asked to resign, visited Wichita earlier this week to interview with council members.
Stay safe KFG.
heh
Farmgrrl please don’t hurt the storms unless they have it coming! They are just doing what they do.
ksfarmgrrl,
I repeat,
“The ESSENTIAL FUNCTION OF MARRIAGE IS TO UNITE MALE AND FEMALE. That is the ONLY kind of union that can PRODUCE NEW LIFE, and therefore the ONLY KIND OF UNION IN WHICH SOCIETY HAS A SURVIVAL STAKE.”
Neither society, government nor the law cares who you want to ‘union’ with, it’s a non issue, but neither do they have any interest in providing recognition or benefits to those unions. They are interested in recognizing and promoting man/woman family, potentially pro-creative, marriages as beneficial to society. And, for the most part they, and I, are totally uninterested in your difference of opinion. Sometimes you just have to live with what you have, and if you’re satisfied with your relationship that should be plenty.
CapnAmerica
Posted May 19, 2008 at 2:27 pm | Permalink
We’re also encouraging Chas to follow this rule:
New Rule: No more arguing with Nathan about who’s a Christian and who gets saved.
Aren’t we, CHAS?
=====================================
Nathaniel
Posted May 19, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink
CapnAmerica,
I will make this offer:
I won’t say another word about Chas not being a Christian.
I won’t say another word about you not having a clue about Christianity either.
That is, until Chas or yourself brings up Christianity or mocks my fathers faith or mine.
===============================================
CapnAmerica
Posted May 19, 2008 at 2:51 pm | Permalink
“I won’t say another word about you not having a clue about Christianity either.
“That is, until Chas or yourself brings up Christianity or mocks my fathers faith or mine.”
Okay, sounds reasonable.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/05/open-thread-519/#comment-352263
==============================================
CapnAmerica,
I have not said one thing to either you or Chas concerning Christianity.
Nothing in my discussion with Ben had to do with my being a Christian or not. Yet you chose to call me a fundo Christian and act like I didn’t care about the Christians in Palestine.
That had nothing to do with the discussion.
So don’t start crying when I question you on your belief.
At least I will not run from your questions like the coward you are when I ask you questions.
Now do you remember the agreement?
Or do you simply not care?
I bet you will care when you have to defend yourself on this blog when I start asking you questions.
You and your liberal pals will cry as soon as I do, but when you do it to me, it is just fine.
Hypocrites.
Ben,
Why have you not bothered to answer the question?
One more time:
How are those children being held by Israel Hostages?
What demands is Israel making before they are released?
Were any of those children taken for the sole purpose to use as leverage so that Israel will have it’s demands met?
Dear Wingnuts (outlander, Franklin/Econ101, HLP, ksgrm)
How do you feel, now that the guy you defended against my critique for his anti-Semitism–John Hagee–has been repudiated by John McCain for saying that the Nazis acted as “God’s sword?” A phrase, which, I dunno, sounds kinda anti-Semitic?
thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/mccain-rejects-hagee-backing-as-nazi-remarks-surface/index.html?hp
If John McCain thinks that was anti-Semitic, outlander, Franklin/Econ101, HLP, and ksgram but YOU don’t, that’s REALLY something, I’d say.
Here’s Econ101 denying it back in April:
“Econ101
Posted April 9, 2008 at 10:05 am | Permalink
CF
I do not agree with Hagee.
However, Hagee is NOT an anti-Semite.
The view that God can use both good and evil to achieve His purposes is not really that far off base.”
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/04/will-mccain-get-similar-scrutiny-about-rev-hagee/#comments
And on the same thread you can read for yourselves ksgrm and HLP pooh-poohing the very idea that Pastor Hagee could be anti-Semitic. Sadly, after digging all the way back to April 1, I couldn’t find the long, astonishing exchange in which outlander denied that blaming the Jews for their own persecution was anti-Semitic. If anyone remembers where it is chronologically, I’d be obliged for the link.
At least GMC70 was smart enough to keep his mouth shut when I called him out on it.
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/03/mccain-the-biggest-winner-tuesday/
It doesn’t enhance your intellectual credility, folks, or give evidence of your capacity for independent thought, that you felt compelled to defend the indefensible simply because it was uttered by a political ally.
Now that John McCain has made it safe for you to do so, I hope you’ll step away from defending Pastor John Hagee’s remarks, and that you’ll denounce them as anti-Semitic–as you should have over ONE MONTH ago. Let’s call it “amnesty for inadvertent anti-Semites. I’m willing to be reasonable.
‘Obama just 64 delegates from victory ‘
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/962840,ob052108.article
“Obama has an overall total of 1,962 delegates, including endorsements from superdelegates. Clinton has 1,779, including superdelegates, according to the latest tally by the AP.”
Society also has an interest in seeing its members in happy healthy relationships NO MATTER WHAT.
It sure beats sleeping around, now isn’t that the whole ‘pro marriage’ arguments that the necons always put forth?
So if gay marriage helps to solidify relationships, how can you possibly be against it?
INIGO
(softly)
That Vizzini, he can fuss.
(a slight emphasis on the last word)
FEZZIK
(looking at Inigo)
… fuss … fuss …
(Suddenly, he’s got it again, emphasis on the last word.)
I think he likes to scream at us.
INIGO
Probably he means no harm.
FEZZIK
He’s really very short on charm.
INIGO
(proudly)
Oh, you’ve a great gift for rhyme.
FEZZIK
Yes, some of the time.
(he starts to smile)
VIZZINI
(whirling on them)
Enough of that.
As they sail off, we hear their voices as the boat recedes.
INIGO
FEZZIK, are there rocks ahead?
FEZZIK
If there are, we’ll all be dead.
VIZZINI
No more rhymes now, I mean it.
FEZZIK
Anybody want a peanut?
Well CF, you are just miles ahead of the news aren’t you? I am always amazed at how stories are held and rationed out for maximum political effect. And no one asks why.
But why would I change my comments? They were not politically motivated. Just the facts and an understanding of scripture. For some reason, you think that ministry leaders should be worried about not offending people. Jesus offended a lot of people. No, they should be concerned about presenting the truth as they are led.
And your links don’t work.
VIZZINI,
stunned, turning to the others, looking down.
VIZZINI
He didn’t fall? Inconceivable!!
INIGO
(whirling on Vizzini)
You keep using that word — I do not think it means what you think it means.
(looks down again)
My God! He’s climbing.
THE MAN IN BLACK,
and so he is. Very slowly, he is picking his way upwards, sometimes a foot at a time, sometimes an inch.
CUT TO:
The group at the top, staring down.
VIZZINI
Whoever he is, he’s obviously seen us with the Princess, and must therefore die.
(to FEZZIK)
You, carry her.
(to Inigo)
We’ll head straight for the Guilder frontier. Catch up when he’s dead. If he falls, fine. If not, the sword.
Inigo nods.
INIGO
I want to duel him left-handed.
VIZZINI
You know what a hurry we’re in.
INIGO
Well, it’s the only way I can be satisfied. If I use my right — tch — over too quickly.
VIZZINI
(turns abruptly, starts off-screen)
Oh, have it your way.
Boxlock,
““The ESSENTIAL FUNCTION OF MARRIAGE IS TO UNITE MALE AND FEMALE. That is the ONLY kind of union that can PRODUCE NEW LIFE, and therefore the ONLY KIND OF UNION IN WHICH SOCIETY HAS A SURVIVAL STAKE.””
So, do you propose banning marriage from men and women who have no more possibility of reproducing??
That is what this looks like!!
Also THIS one >>>>
“They are interested in recognizing and promoting man/woman family, potentially pro-creative, marriages as beneficial to society.”
Another seemingly pro “new life makers” statement about the purpose of marriage…
Let me tell you something, Boxlock… Neither my wife OR myself is capable of reproduction… Not possible… I hope people like YOU, sir/madam, NEVER have the power to stretch your narrow minded marriage concepts you have posted here today…
YOU are a dangerous type of person — whether you know it or not!!
INIGO.
He watches them depart, then turns, peers down over the Cliffs. He watches a moment, then paces, shaking his hands loose. He practices a few of his honed fencing skills. He is a taut and nervous fellow, and has never been one for waiting around.
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK,
climbing on. He must be six inches closer to the top than when last we saw him. Inigo is watching.
CUT TO:
INIGO,
walking away. Finally he goes back to cliff edge, starts to talk. It’s instant death if the Man In Black falls, but neither gives that possibility much credence. This is our two heroes meeting. They don’t know it yet; but that’s what it is.
INIGO
(hollering down)
Hello there.
The Man In Black glances up, kind of grunts.
INIGO
Slow going?
MAN IN BLACK
Look, I don’t mean to be rude, but this is not as easy as it looks. So I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t distract me.
INIGO
Sorry.
MAN IN BLACK
Thank you.
Inigo steps away, draws his sword, loosens up with a few perfect thrusts. Then resheathes and looks eagerly over the edge again.
INIGO
I do not suppose you could speed things up?
MAN IN BLACK
(with some beat)
If you’re in such a hurry, you could lower a rope, or a tree branch, or find something useful to do.
INIGO
I could do that. In fact, I’ve got some rope up here. But I do not think that you will accept my help, since I am only waiting around to kill you.
MAN IN BLACK
That does put a damper on our relationship.
(He finds another bold a few inches higher)
INIGO
But I promise I will not kill you until you reach the top.
MAN IN BLACK
That’s very comforting. But I’m afraid you’ll just have to wait.
INIGO
I hate waiting. I could give you my word as a Spaniard.
MAN IN BLACK
No good. I’ve known too many Spaniards.
And he just hangs there in space, resting, gathering his strength.
INIGO
You don’t know any way you’ll trust me?
MAN IN BLACK
Nothing comes to mind.
And on these words, CAMERA ZOOMS into a CLOSE UP on Inigo. He raises his right hand high, his eyes blaze, and his voice takes on a tone we have not heard before.
INIGO
I swear on the soul of my father, Domingo Montoya, you will reach the top alive.
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK.
There is a pause. Then, quietly:
MAN IN BLACK
Throw me the rope.
INIGO,
watching as the Man In Black crawls to safety, then looks to Inigo.
MAN IN BLACK
Thank you.
(pulling his sword)
INIGO
We’ll wait until you’re ready.
MAN IN BLACK
Again. Thank you.
The Man In Black sits to rest on the boulder that once held the rope. He tugs off his leather boots and is amazed to see several large rocks tumble out. The Man In Black wears gloves. Inigo stares at them.
INIGO
I do not mean to pry, but you don’t by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?
He glances up — the question clearly baffles him.
MAN IN BLACK
Do you always begin conversations this way?
INIGO
My father was slaughtered by a six- fingered man. He was a great swordmaker, my father. And when the six-fingered man appeared and requested a special sword, my father took the job. He slaved a year before he was done.
He hands his sword to the Man In Black.
MAN IN BLACK
(fondling it-impressed)
I have never seen its equal.
CUT TO:
CLOSE UP – INIGO.
Even now, this still brings pain.
INIGO
The six-fingered man returned and demanded it, but at one-tenth his promised price. My father refused. Without a word, the six-fingered man slashed him through the heart. I loved my father, so, naturally, challenged his murderer to a duel … I failed … the six-fingered man did leave me alive with the six-fingered sword, but he gave me these.
(He toucbes his scars.)
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK,
looking up at Inigo.
MAN IN BLACK
How old were you?
INIGO
I was eleven years old. When I was strong enough, I dedicated my life to the study of fencing. So the next time we meet, I will not fail. I will go up to the six-fingered man and say, “Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.”
MAN IN BLACK
You’ve done nothing but study swordplay?
INIGO
More pursuit than study lately. You see, I cannot find him. It’s been twenty years now. I am starting to lose confidence. I just work for Vizzini to pay the bills. There’s not a lot of money in revenge.
MAN IN BLACK
(handing back the great sword, starting to rise)
Well, I certainly hope you find him, someday.
INIGO
You are ready, then?
MAN IN BLACK
Whether I am or not, you’ve been more than fair.
INIGO
You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you.
MAN IN BLACK
(walking away a few paces, unsheathing his sword)
You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.
THE TWO OF THEM.
And what we are starting now is one of the two greatest sword fights in modern movies (the other one happens later on), and right from the beginning it looks different.
Because they aren’t close to each other — none of the swords-crossing “en garde” garbage.
No, what we have here is two men, two athletes, and they look to be too faraway to damage each other, but each time one makes even the tiniest feint, the other counters, and there is silence, and as they start to circle —
CUT TO:
THE SIX-FINGERED SWORD,
feinting here, feinting there and —
CUT TO:
THE TWO MEN,
finished teasing, begin to duel in earnest.
Their swords cross, then again, again, and the sound comes so fast it’s almost continual. Inigo presses on, the Man In Black retreating up a rocky incline.
INIGO
(thrilled)
You’re using Bonetti’s defense against me, ah?
MAN IN BLACK
I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain –
INIGO
Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro –
And he shifts his style now.
MAN IN BLACK
(coping as best he can)
– naturally –
(suddenly shifting again)
–but I find Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don’t you?
The Man In Black is now perched at the edge of the elevated castle ruin. No where to go, he jumps to the sand. Inigo stares down at him.
INIGO
Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa-
And now, with the grace of an Olympian, Inigo flies off the perch, somersaults clean over the Man In Black’s head, and lands facing his opponent.
INIGO
– which I have.
The two men are almost flying across the rocky terrain, never losing balance, never coming close to stumbling; the battle rages with incredible finesse, first one and then the other gaining the advantage, and by now, it’s clear that this isn’t just two athletes going at it, it’s a lot more that that. This is two legendary swashbucklers and they’re in their prime, it’s Burt Lancaster in “The Crimson Pirate” battling Errol Flynn in “Robin Hood” and then, incredibly, the action begins going even faster than before as we
CUT TO:
INIGO.
And behind him now, drawing closer all the time, is the deadly edge of the Cliffs of Insanity. Inigo fights and ducks and feints and slashes and it all works, but not for long, as gradually the Man In Black keeps the advantage, keeps forcing Inigo back, closer and closer to death.
INIGO
(happy as a clam)
You are wonderful!
MAN IN BLACK
Thank you — I’ve worked hard to become so.
The Cliff edge is very close now. Inigo is continually being forced toward it.
INIGO
I admit it — you are better than I am.
MAN IN BLACK
Then why are you smiling?
Inches from defeat, Inigo is, in fact, all smiles.
INIGO
Because I know something you don’t know.
MAN IN BLACK
And what is that?
INIGO
I am not left-handed.
And he throws the six-fingered sword into his right hand and immediately, the tide of battle turns.
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK,
stunned, doing everything be can to keep Inigo by the Cliff edge. But no use. Slowly at first, he begins to retreat. Now faster, Inigo is in control and the Man In Black is desperate.
CUT TO:
INIGO.
And the six-fingered sword is all but invisible now, as he increases his attack, then suddenly switches styles again.
CUT TO:
A ROCKY STAIRCASE leading to a turret-shaped plateau, and the Man In Black is retreating like mad up the steps and he can’t stop Inigo — nothing can stop Inigoo — and in a frenzy, the Man In Black makes every feint, tries every thrust, lets go with all he has left. But he fails. Everything fails. He tries one or two final desperate moves but they are nothing.
MAN IN BLACK
You’re amazing!
INIGO
I ought to be after twenty years.
And now the Man In Black is smashed into a stone pillar, pinned there under the six fingered sword.
MAN IN BLACK
(hollering it out)
There’s something I ought to tell you.
INIGO
Tell me.
MAN IN BLACK
I am not left-handed either.
And now he changes hands, and at last, the battle is fully joined.
CUT TO:
INIGO.
And to his amazement, he is being forced back down the steps. He tries one style, another, but it all comes down to the same thing — the Man In Black seems to be in control. And before Inigo knows it, the six-fingered sword is knocked clear out of his hand.
Inigo retreats, dives from the stairs to a moss-covered bar suspended over the archway. He swings out, lands, and scrambles to his sword and we
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK
who watches Inigo, then casually tosses his sword to the landing where it sticks in perfectly. Then the Man In Black copies INIGO. Not copies exactly, improves. He dives to the bar, swings completely over it like a circus performer and dismounts with a 9.7 backflip.
CUT TO:
INIGO,
staring in awe.
INIGO
Who are you?!
MAN IN BLACK
No one of consequence.
INIGO
I must know.
MAN IN BLACK
Get used to disappointment.
INIGO
Okay.
CUT TO:
INIGO,
moving like lightning, and he thrusts forward, slashes, darts back, all in almost a single movement and —
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK.
Dodging, blocking, and again he thrusts forward, faster even than before, and again he slashes but —
CUT TO:
INIGO.
And there is never a move anyone makes he doesn’t remember, and this time he blocks the slash, slashes out himself with the six-fingered sword.
On it goes, back and forth across the rocky terrain, Inigo’s feet moving with the grace and speed of a great improvisational dancer.
CUT TO:
THE SIX-FINGERED SWORD
as it is knocked free, arching up into the air, and —
CUT TO:
INIGO
catching it again. And something terrible is written behind his eyes: he has given his all, done everything man can do, tried every style, made every maneuver, but it wasn’t enough, and on his face for all to see is the realization that he, Inigo Montoya of Spain, is going to lose.
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK,
moving in for the end now, blocking everything, muzzling everything and
CUT TO:
THE SIX-FINGERED SWORD,
sent flying from Inigo’s grip. He stands helpless only a moment. Then be drops to his knees, bows his head, shuts his eyes.
INIGO
Kill me quickly.
MAN IN BLACK
I would as soon destroy a stained glass window as an artist like yourself. However, since I can’t have you following me either –
And he dunks Inigo’s head with his heavy sword handle. Inigo pitches forward unconscious.
MAN IN BLACK
Please understand, I hold you in the highest respect.
He grabs his scabbard and takes off after the Princess.
Search engine math is your friend CF.
Hey farmgrrl?
When you win the right to marry in a few years?
Will you invite all those people who said you would never be allowed to to the event?
Me too? I’ll be your usher. Any of them makes any trouble, I’ll only make them cry a little.
The Man In Black comes running around the path, sees Vizzini, slows. The two men study each other. Then —
VIZZINI
So, it is down to you. And it is down to me.
The Man In Black nods and comes nearer —
VIZZINI
If you wish her dead, by all means keep moving forward.
And he pushes his long knife harder against Buttercup’s unprotected throat.
MAN IN BLACK
Let me explain-
VIZZINI
– there’s nothing to explain. You’re trying to kidnap what I’ve rightfully stolen.
MAN IN BLACK
Perhaps an arrangement can be reached.
VIZZINI
There will be no arrangement –
(deliberate)
– and you’re killing her!
CUT TO:
BUTTERCUP’S THROAT,
as Vizzini jabs with his long knife. Buttercup gasps against the pain.
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK,
stopping fast.
MAN IN BLACK
But if there can be no arrangement, then we are at an impasse.
VIZZINI
I’m afraid so — I can’t compete with you physically. And you’re no match for my brains.
MAN IN BLACK
You’re that smart?
VIZZINI
Let me put it this way: have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
MAN IN BLACK
Yes.
VIZZINI
Morons.
MAN IN BLACK
Really? In that case, I challenge you to a battle of wits.
VIZZINI
For the Princess?
The Man In Black nods.
VIZZINI
To the death?
Another nod.
VIZZINI
I accept.
MAN IN BLACK
Good. Then pour the wine.
As Vizzini fills the goblets with the dark red liquid, the Man In Black pulls a small packet from his clothing, handing it to Fizzini.
MAN IN BLACK
Inhale this, but do not touch.
VIZZINI
(doing it)
I smell nothing.
MAN IN BLACK
(taking the packet back)
What you do not smell is called iocane powder. It is odorless, tasteless, dissolves instantly in liquid, and is among the more deadlier poisons known to man.
VIZZINI
Hmm.
CUT TO:
VIZZINI,
watching excitedly as the Man In Black takes the goblets, turns his back. A moment later, he turns again, faces Vizzini, drops the iocane packet. It is now empty.
The Man In Black rotates the goblets in a little shell game maneuver then puts one glass in front of Vizzini, the other in front of himself.
MAN IN BLACK
All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead.
VIZZINI
But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy’s?
He studies the Man In Black now.
VIZZINI
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I’m not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
MAN IN BLACK
(And now there’s a trace of nervousness beginning)
You’ve made your decision then7
VIZZINI
Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
MAN IN BLACK
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
VIZZINI
Wait till I get going! Where was I?
MAN IN BLACK
Australia.
VIZZINI
Yes — Australia, and you must have suspected I would have known the powder’s origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
MAN IN BLACK
(very nervous)
You’re just stalling now.
VIZZINI
(cackling)
You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you?
(stares at the Man in Black)
You’ve beaten my giant, which means you’re exceptionally strong. So, you could have put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you’ve also bested my Spaniard which means you must have studied. And in studying, you must have learned that man is mortal so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
As Vizzini’s pleasure has been growing throughout, the Man In Black’s has been fast disappearing.
MAN IN BLACK
You’re trying to trick me into giving away something — it won’t work –
VIZZINI
(triumphant)
It has worked — you’ve given everything away — I know where the poison is.
MAN IN BLACK
(fool’s courage)
Then make your choice.
VIZZINI
I will. And I choose –
And suddenly he stops, points at something behind the Man In Black.
VIZZINI
– what in the world can that be?
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK,
turning around, looking.
MAN IN BLACK
What? Where? I don’t see anything.
CUT TO:
VIZZINI,
busily switching the goblets while the Man In Black has his head turned.
VIZZINI
Oh, well, I-I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.
The Man In Black turns to face him again. Vizzini starts to laugh.
MAN IN BLACK
What’s so funny?
VIZZINI
I’ll tell you in a minute. First, let’s drink — me from my glass, and you from yours.
And he picks up his goblet. The Man In Black picks up the one in front of him. As they both start to drink, Vizzini hesitates a moment.
Then, allowing the Man In Black to drink first, he swallows his wine.
MAN IN BLACK
You guessed wrong.
VIZZINI
(roaring with laughter)
You only think I guessed wrong –
(louder now)
– that’s what’s so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned. You fool.
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK.
There’s nothing he can say. He just sits there.
CUT TO:
VIZZINI,
watching him.
VIZZINI
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is “Never get involved in a land war in Asia.” But only slightly less well known is this: “Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.”
He laughs and roars and cackles and whoops and is in all ways quite cheery until he falls over dead.
CUT TO:
THE MAN IN BLACK,
stepping past the corpse, taking the blindfold and bindings off Buttercup, who notices Vizzini lying dead.
The Man In Black pulls her to her feet.
BUTTERCUP
Who are you?
MAN IN BLACK
I am no one to be trifled with, that is all you ever need know.
He starts to lead her off the mountain path into untraveled terrain.
BUTTERCUP
(a final glance back toward Vizzini)
To think — all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
MAN IN BLACK
They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.
And with that, he takes off, dragging her behind him.
“WE Blog”+”outlander”+”Hagee”+”Jews”+”anti-semitic”
Uh, oops.
That was supposed to go in the search bar.
I’ve shown my work before I found my answer..
WESTLEY WHIRLING,
slashing at a U-shaped vine, hacks it in half — it’s still connected to the tree. Then be grabs it, drops his sword, and, clutching the other end of the vine, he dives into the lightning sand and there is another cloud of white powder, but it settles quickly.
Now nothing can be seen. Nothing at all. Just the lightning sand, lovely and lethal.
HOLD ON THE LIGHTNING SAND — THEN —
An odd panting sound is heard now. The panting sound is suddenly very loud. And then a giant R.0.U.S. darts into view. The R.0.U.S. — a Rodent of Unusual Size — is probably no more than eighty pounds of bone and power. It sniffs around a bit then, as quickly as it has come, it goes.
CUT TO:
THE LIGHTNING SAND,
as Westley, lungs long past the bursting point, explodes out; he has Buttercup across his shoulders and as he pulls to the edge of the lightning sand pit, using the vine —
CUT TO:
CLOSE-UP – BUTTERCUP.
Her face is caked with the white powder. It is in her eyes, her ears, hair, mouth. She’s still probably beautiful, but you have to look awfully hard to see it. As Westley continues to pull them to safety —
CUT TO:
The R.0.U.S.,
high above them; it watches –
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/03/richardson-prefers-obama/
I get two returns on the search math I accidentally posted above CF. This is one of them. You can find the part you mean. I read a little here. It seems you were right.
Chas posts;
“So, do you propose banning marriage from men and women who have no more possibility of reproducing??
That is what this looks like!!
YOU are a dangerous type of person — whether you know it or not!!”
Oh Chas, just chill out, or take one of your pills.
I did not mean or say that. I said, “Neither society, government nor the law cares who you want to ‘union’ with, it’s a non issue, but neither do they have any interest in providing recognition or benefits to those unions.” Meaning homosexual unions as that was the subject.
I said nothing about banning non-reproductive man/woman marriages, or your marriage. Society simply has no interest in offering benefits to homosexual unions, and does not get into the individual situations of every man/woman marriage. Benefits are put in place to encourage what society considers what will of benefit to society and limits it’s interest to man/woman marriages in general because it is the only union capable of reproduction.
Dang good memory there CF.
It seems outlander SEVERAL times defended Hagee and repeatedly said Hagee was not anti-semitic. Here is just one bit of the exchange.
outlander
Posted March 22, 2008 at 4:47 am | Permalink
Enough CF. You have your view, and I have mine. ON this issue it is obvious we will not see eye to eye. You have shown basically nothing to demonstrate any anti-semitic belief on the part of Hagee.
I have never seen such strained pretzel logic to try to reach a politically expedient conclusion.
And interesting enough, ksagnostic had already found the Hitler comments back then. You can read how outlander disagreed with Hagee IF he made those remarks. But outlander was not convinced he had.
Thanks for finding that JR. Here is another:
#
outlander
Posted March 22, 2008 at 6:40 pm | Permalink
Interesting, CF just devoted about a page to me. iSpent some real time on research. Evidently CF isn’t a basketball fan.
But just what was your point CF? That I don’t pay attention to weak arguments? Or that I “breezily dismiss” weak arguments? What?
Up thread KsAgnostic finally presented something allegedly written by Hagee that I don’t agree with.
“[Then] God sent the hunters. The hunter is one who pursues his target with force and fear. No one could see the horror of the Holocaust coming, but the force and fear of Hitler’s Nazis drive the Jewish people back to the only home God ever intended for the Jews to have-Israel…. I am stricken with awe and wonder at his boundless love for Israel and the Jewish people.”
I disagree because that could be interpreted to mean that God sent the Nazi’s. I believe God does not “send” plagues onto his chosen people, Jewish or Christian. But if he meant that, would that mean that Hagee has hatred for the Jews?
Let’s look at this analogy. Suppose you are attacked by someone in your own home. You are injured so badly that you are permanently disabled and can’t work. As it turns out you live in a bad neighborhood and the assailant entered through an unlock door. You forgot to lock it because you were out drinking the previous night. Your Uncle Bob comes to visit. You tell him the whole story. Uncle Bob points out that he thinks that it your own fault that you got injured. This pisses you off because you know it was this bad guy that did it to you. But Uncle Bob then tells you it doesn’t matter. He tells you that he loves you, that he is there for you and that he will take care of and protect you.
Does Uncle Bob hate you?
—————–
J R
Posted March 21, 2008 at 8:31 pm | Permalink
Well it isn’t just the Jews is it?
Didn’t this fellow Hagee also call the Catholic church a cult?
And wow linda you were right!
Our resident religion pc cop paulthecon walked right past Hagee
=======================================
Hate toward Jews + Hate toward Catholics —-
Thats two of the three support columns of the KKK — Makes one wonder what Hagee really thinks of Blacks??
I do always try to fair to YOU outlander.
I did afford that you diagreed with Hagee some.
I think the guy is a nut.
And your argument back then skates on a real thin line.
I get where your religion has you coming from. Tough love on the Jews. But Hagee’s remarks are SO objectionable, they could be seen as going beyond that and into anti-semitism.
I don’t envy you if you continue to try and defend Hagee. Certainly McCain finally felt the need to bail. I guess I would have to be Jewish to say one way or the other.
“Does Uncle Bob hate you?”
Ummmmm Yep!!
Sorry Outlander —
For your “story” to fit, Uncle Bob would have had to SEND in the home invader to teach you a lesson about locking your door…
Heh heh
I like doing searches like that sometimes. There are some real barn burners back in the archives.
More fun with search engine math?
Try “WE Blog”+”Kansas”+”arm-flailing”
You get MANY hits of oldies.
Substitute “Regular” or “Republican” or “Republikhan” or “JM” for even more fun!
In the story Chas… Hagee is Uncle Bob. That may change things a bit. It is not a perfect analogy, but not too bad I think.
Well, in that case, Outlander, you left God out entirely!!
Yes JR, Hagee is not an easy nor pleasant subject to defend. I will do so only as I see it necessary for him to get reasonably fair treatment.
Would you also give Hitler fair treatment??
#
Chas
Posted May 22, 2008 at 9:47 pm | Permalink
Would you also give Hitler fair treatment??
—————
?
#
Chas
Posted May 22, 2008 at 9:44 pm | Permalink
Well, in that case, Outlander, you left God out entirely!!
————
Not really.
My main problem here is not with Hagee.
I am not Jewish or otherwise religious. Hagee is what he is. I would not, as I said, want to be in the position of defending him.
But what of McCain? He seeks this guy out for a year, gets him, denies it, and NOW cuts him totally loose.
This does not speak well of McCain’s information sources. We don’t need ANOTHER President who listens to bad intelligence or does not listen to good intelligence.
McCain has ALSO dumped another pastor named Parsley?
What would a McCain administration be like? An endless stream of incompetents and liabilities?
Kind of like the last 7 years?
Saturday, September 22, 2007
The most dangerous force in the world is Christian Fundamentalism
By Marcus Salek, Prague
“The American Christian right extremists want to foment a war that will lead to Armageddon – and for them the sooner the better. ” There leader is Paster John Hagee. He wants Nuclear war and he wants it with IRAN. He has the ear of the White House.
Few Americans understand the real reasons for the alliance between Christian fundamentalism and the most extreme segments of right wing Israeli political life. Grace Halsell has written an important book, “Prophecy and Politics” (Lawrence Hill and Co) on this very subject. Halsell worked as a White House speechwriter during the Johnson administration.
During two of Jerry Falwell’s Holy Land tours, the author interviewed fundamentalist members of the Moral Majority, all of whom believed that the biblical prophecy of fighting World War 3 must be fulfilled before Christ can return to earth.
The cult of “Dispensationalism” spread throughout America largely through the efforts of Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, born in 1843.
The Schofield Bible is the standard reference work in virtually all Christian ministries and divinity schools. It is singularly responsible for the Christian belief that the Hebrew Prophecies describe the kingdom of Jesus’ Second Coming.
………………..Who Was Cyrus Schofield?……………..
Article from Topeka newspaper , The Daily Capital dated August 27, 1881:
“CYRUS I. SCHOFIELD IN THE ROLE OF A CONGREGATIONAL MINISTER ”
“Cyrus I. Schofield, formerly of Kansas, late lawyer, politician and shyster generally, has come to the surface again, and promises once more to gather around himself that halo of notoriety that has made him so prominent in the past.
The last personal knowledge that Kansans have had of this peer among scalawags, was when about four years ago, after a series of forgeries and confidence games he left the state and a destitute family and took refuge in Canada.
For a time he kept undercover, nothing being heard of him until within the past two years when he turned up in St. Louis, where he had a wealthy widowed sister living who has generally come to the front and squared up Cyrus’ little follies and foibles by paying good round sums of money.
Within the past year, however, Cyrus committed a series of St. Louis forgeries that could not be settled so easily, and the erratic young gentleman was compelled to linger in the St. Louis jail for a period of six months. Among the many malicious acts that characterized his career, was one peculiarly atrocious, that has come under our personal notice.
Shortly after he left Kansas, leaving his wife and two children dependent upon the bounty of his wife’s mother, he wrote his wife that he could invest some $1,300 of her mother’s money, all she had, in a manner that would return big interest. After some correspondence he forwarded them a mortgage, signed and executed by one Chas. Best, purporting to convey valuable property in St. Louis. Upon this, the money was sent to him.
Afterwards the mortgages were found to be base forgeries, no such person as Charles Best being in existence, and the property conveyed in the mortgage fictitious…”[vi]
http://www.nwo101.com/2007/09/most-dangerous-force-in-world-is.html
Outlander –
Where is God in your “story”??
And would you give Hitler the same fair treatment you want to give Hagee?? Simple question, really…
BlueJay,
Game, set, match. Much obliged.
outlander,
I said it before and I’ll say it again: you have absolutely no concept of what constitutes anti-Semitism. None.
Here is the thread. And if “the link doesn’t work,” then copy and paste it into your browser.
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/03/richardson-prefers-obama/
Here’s a quote from you regarding Hagee. You wrote, “he states his opinion as to why God may have withdrawn his hand of protection.”
That is NOT what he said, outlander: Hagee says GOD sent for “many” hunters to get the Jews–the hunters, in this case, being HITLER. You got that, outlander? GOD sent Hitler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErC1IJeHnyc&eurl=http://juancole.com/
FYI, anti-Semitism isn’t just “racial” in character, and it doesn’t have to entail direct threats to Jews. What it may entail, among other things, is the denial of validity to Jews insofar as they ARE Jews. And when John Hagee says that the Jews “are physically alive but they’re not spiritually alive,” well, outlander, that blanket dismissal of validity to Jews insofar as they ARE Jews is anti-Semitic.
It is one thing to say that God punishes the Jews. It is entirely another thing to merge concrete history and religious doctrine to conclude that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves through their divine disobedience. Blaming the victim, outlander, is a staple of Christian anti-Semitism. And it gives a free pass to those who perpetrate these deeds, whether they are doing away with the ones who “killed Christ,” or the ones who allegedly murder children in the “blood libel,” or because the Jews refuse to “come to Christ.”
If it is not anti-Semitic to conclude that Jews are so reprobate that in persecuting them, one is doing God’s will, I don’t know what is. And this is precisely what Hagee’s argument makes possible. It is astonishing that even though John McCain gets it, outlander, you SO don’t want to be wrong that you either do not or cannot.
It’s funny watching all the righties wanting to toss Hagee under the bus. And they talk about Wright!
Well stated, CF
Not all of them, Ben… I heard Medved earlier today and almost puked… He said McCain was wrong to dismiss his ties with Hagee… And get this, Medved SAYS he is a Jew!!
Happy to help CF.
Like I say, I am not Jewish or otherwise religious.
But it is worth noting that this is not the first time “the Jews” have been used as to politics.
Hitler built a movement based on hating the Jews. Was it divinely guided? Sheesh I hope not.
I have enough trouble with religion without having to sort out race hatred from tough love. I really don’t think Hitler was practicing tough love.
Hitler as God’s ignorant device?
It would take a summit of various faiths to explain that one to me.
Saying something that offends someone’s delicate sensibilities is not hate. And I disagree with your assertion CF, that having an opinion as to why something happened, even pointing out why the victim may be partially to blame, even if it is dead wrong, is not hate. In fact, it would be stupid to contend that it was.
Plus, Hagee’s undeniable fervent support of the Jews and Jewish state refutes your shallow, politically motivated conclusion.
I provided a good analogy of the situation for you to consider. Reread it, you may get it.
It would sure be nice to see the media give as much attention to McCain’s spiritual advisors they gave to Wright.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMrtziAaA_o&feature=related
#
Chas
Posted May 22, 2008 at 10:10 pm | Permalink
Outlander –
Where is God in your “story”??
And would you give Hitler the same fair treatment you want to give Hagee?? Simple question, really…
————-
God is not necessary in the analogy Chas.
And your Hitler question is a non sequitur.
Oh.. and stupid and inflammatory.
You are not making this easy on yourself or Hagee outlander.
The Jews have their place? Is that about it?
They have their place in their divinely deeded holy land and outside that they fail in God’s eyes?
Politics is confusing enough. Especially these days. Our founders were wise to separate it from even more complicated religion.
The Jews have their place? Is that about it?
They have their place in their divinely deeded holy land and outside that they fail in God’s eyes?
————–
I dunno JR. Your words, not mine.
Outlander, hardly stupid and inflammatory — YOU said you wanted to give Hagee fair treatment… Hagee said God used Hitler, to get the Jews back to Israel —
Thus, it follows — Do you want to give that same fair treatment to Hitler?? After all, your man Hagee says Hitler was just God’s chosen instrument!!
I’m summarizing Hagee’s words outlander.
My take on them anyway.
McCain ran from the job. If you want it and want to make Hagee look good? Or even rational?
Good luck.
You are right on there Ben :-)
“I became interested in abortion when, at a late stage, it became apparent to me as a nurse that far more botched abortions were taking place than should be. The first time this happened to me a little boy was aborted into a cardboard bed pan which was thrust into my arms. As I stood and looked in that cardboard bed pan, this little boy was gasping through mucus and amniotic fluid for his breath. I stood with him in a sluice in my arms in a bedpan for seven minutes while he gasped for his breath. A botched abortion which became a live birth then became a death seven minutes later. I knew that at that moment, as I stood with that little boy in my arms, that one day I would have the opportunity to stand and defend babies like him. I thought we were committing that day murder.”
. . . British Tory MP and former nurse Nadine Dorries, arguing unsuccessfully for more humane late-term abortion restrictions in Parliament, which refused to recognize even post-viable unborn babies as human and worthy of any mercy
Chas: I believe that I said I disagreed with Hagee on that. If I disagree with something Chas, that means that I will not be defending it.
Ben,
I will assume that the reason you will not answer teh question is because you can’t. As usual, you twist words and make up lies about Israel.
outlander,
“Saying something that offends someone’s delicate sensibilities is not hate.”
Really. Even insofar as what is said metaphysically denies the validity of one’s traditions and identity? And if one takes umbrage at such a denial, this merely expresses one’s “delicate sensibilities?”
Are you nuts?
“Clueless” would be a charitable way to describe your response. An uncharitable–but accurate–way would be to describe you as not finding much wrong with anti-Semitic views if they echo your theological convictions.
conservative makeovers for liberals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azYpHX2sLkA&feature=related
CF2K,
There seem to be many here who have no problem at all insulting my beliefs.
If insulting someone is the mere rejection of what they are saying as stupid, then that is not hate at all.
That is disagreement.
I do believe that many liberals here have a hard time seperating the two. When someone disagrees with them they take it far too personally.
Boxlock, you conveniently forgot to mention what ELSE you posted >>>>
“The ESSENTIAL FUNCTION OF MARRIAGE IS TO UNITE MALE AND FEMALE. That is the ONLY kind of union that can PRODUCE NEW LIFE, and therefore the ONLY KIND OF UNION IN WHICH SOCIETY HAS A SURVIVAL STAKE.”
THAT statement says nothing about gay marriage… but it says LOTS about Marriage for the purpose of reproduction,being the “Only kind of Union in which Society has a survival stake.”
YOUR words, Boxlock… Male/Female/Reproduction… So, what is your intention towards people who cannot reproduce, but who want to marry??
“When someone disagrees with them they take it far too personally.”
That is probably because you lack the social skills to convey a debate point without insulting someone with terms like “ignorant” “lacking in reading comprehension” etc.
Well I have never lied on you Nathan.
You have not afforded me the same.
I don’t care about your beliefs. I do not share them. I ask you not to force them on me or others.
If it is your take that this or that is “God’s will”? Then let God weigh in. Step back and let him.
Because you are not a very good spokesman.
a sneak peek inside the good rev hagee empire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P_W6fxnJhk
Nathan – I answreed your question. People siezed from their homes are much more appropruately called hostages than soldiers captured during a military foray. Yet the US calls the soldiers hostages and the civilians prisoners.
Ben,
You didn’t answer the question at all, you are just calling them hostages again.
Hostages are held for a demand. What demand is Israel making for those hostages?
maybe this will help you out Ben
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA&feature=related
Slatterly for Senate:
http://www.slatteryforsenate.com/?home#
BTW, his daughters are not difficult to look at…
About effing time, don’t you Repubs think?:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/22/AR2008052203141.html?hpid=topnews
Now to get rid of Michael Medved
Medved said today that McCain was wrong to get rid of Hagee… Said Hagee was good for McCain…
Good night; Good luck; God Bless –
Whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings ALL!!
ONLY KIND OF UNION IN WHICH SOCIETY HAS A SURVIVAL STAKE.”
And that is true. That’s NOT banning or outlawing non-reproductive unions, it is simply that they do not offer the benefit of growth consequently they are not rewarded with benefits of opposite sex marriage. The government limits its interest to man/woman unions in general and does not go into every single individual situation whether that individual, particular man/woman marriage is reproductive. The government also gives additional benefits to those marriages with children as opposed to those without, go harp about that, you aren’t getting that either.
” What demand is Israel making for those hostages?”
As stated before; Israel demands that the Palestinian people submit to their permanent subjugation by Israel. As Ariel Sharon noted, the Israeli government considers them to be ‘Israeli subjects’. That is also why Israel claims that their treatment is an ‘internal affair’
StevenEDavis
Posted May 23, 2008 at 12:15 am | Permalink
About effing time, don’t you Repubs think?:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/22/AR2008052203141.html?hpid=topnews
Not to be nasy, but did Obama repudiate Wrights endorsement, or just his statements? HMMM?
“The government also gives additional benefits to those marriages with children as opposed to those without, go harp about that, you aren’t getting that either.”
Boxlock… Gay couples can adopt children… My wife and I cant… too old!!
Hi all!
G’night
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