WE Blog

This is what happens when you try to combine politics with religion.

I can’t wait for the reichwing spin on this……….

Agreed Kev………..It should be fun watching McSame getting “swift-boated” over these fundamentalists.

Paybacks are a bitc*!

By the way, here’s what I think is strong evidence that McCain intends to use Wright against Obama in the general:

“”I have said I do not believe Senator Obama shares Reverend Wright’s extreme views,” McCain said in the statement. “But let me also be clear, Reverend Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual advisor, and I did not attend his church for twenty years.” He added: “I have denounced statements he made immediately upon learning of them, as I do again today.”
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/23/1056413.aspx

Like I said: that ‘ol 2004 GOP attack machine is being geared up once more. Load craziness into the chamber; target – Obama; fire; aim. So obviously it won’t be pretty for the GOP.

John “McSame Old, Same Old” McCain: your GOP candidate in 2008.

Those fundmentalists that post here have a problem as well.

Unless THEY repudiate Hagee, Parsley, Falwell, Phelps, etc. they will be seen as vomiting the same racist, bigotted, intolerant ideas as them.

Of course they probably agree that Hitler was a divine messenger sent from God.

You know, McCain would do a lot better if he’d run the way he did in the last election now that he’s got the nomination. However, that would make him out to be a complete liar.

writerdog
Posted May 24, 2008 at 9:40 am | Permalink

One problem is how Mc Cain dismisses any comparison of Obama having Wright and him having Hegee and Parley. By pointing out that Obama had went to Wright’s church for twenty years while Mc Cain never attend either Hegee or Parley’s church. That by some strange logic it is more honorable for him to have sought out the two wackos than it is that Obama had attended the same church for twenty years and the preacher is a wacko…. A whore may perform the same sex acts as a wife, but the two can not be thought of as the same thing. A wife performs them as a act of love while the whore is for the money.
Obama was involved with Wright as a man is involved with his wife. Mc Cain sought out two whores for his own purpose.

Exactly. And the “traditions and national morals” leg of the GOP can easily see and know in their hearts that this is true.

And despite it all, it appears McCain’s campaign is gearing up to distort Obama’s connection to Wright this fall.

That’s why I wrote that for the GOP it will be load, fire, aim in 2008.

Again, well said dog.

Nano, it seems if the candidates don’t speak out against criticisms the media run with the distortions longer and louder. A “So what?” comment will be used to further sensationalize. And too many voters hear nothing but what media chooses to use. Those voters believe what they hear and read without question. The sound bites seldom carry the full story but whatever they depict is all most voters take the time to learn.

I don’t think it’s an indication of strength to allow distortions. What you call “falling all over himself,” or “furiously back-pedaling” (and I note those derogatory terms are only used for Democratic candidates) are setting the record straight instead of allowing the opponent or media to misrepresent.

Like you, I wouldn’t mind McCain answering each criticism with, “So what?” I think we’ve gone through almost eight years of a POTUS who doesn’t give a s**t and that kind of response would indicate more of the same from McCain.

**BUT Hegee was too far off base to try to say it was God’s intent that six Million Jews were sent to the gas chambers. Sometimes God just let Humans do as they will and weeps.**

At least Wright was acting out of his personal experience with racism as an American in his lifetime, an experience African-Americans as a group experienced for more than a century; most slaves by the time of the US Civil War were born in American and lived as Americans forced into continued slavery. This was masterfully arranged by wealthy Southern whites (dating back to Bacon’s Rebellion) who turned poor Whites against African slaves to avoid mass uprisings by the poorer class that would threaten the privileged. The Clinton-Obama battle in the Democratic primary is a great example of how effective turning those less well off than the obscenely wealthy against one another based on skin color has been.

I disagree with Wright’s choice of the Christian church’s pulpit as the forum for that particular discussion. Is the church an appropriate place for this discussion? Yes. I find it completely appropriate for persons of faith to deal with social issues. But, the pulpit is rightly reserved for the expression of the Good News. But, Reverend Wright has as much right as any American to express his views and share his experience.

Hagee, on the other hand, presuming to express a knowledge that God intended for six million of His children to be brutalized moves beyond the pale of common human decency, much less Christian principles as they reflect the love God has for us that we’re to extend to one another. I think it’s unlikely that Hagee is speaking from any personal experience as moral justification for his remarks. He didn’t live in Nazi Germany at the time of the Holocaust and experience all the abuses by Jews that justified their extermination. After all Jews weren’t exterminated for wrongs. They were exterminated because Hitler needed a common cause to unite the German people to his ideology and he played on centuries old European bigotries to do it. (We’re doing the same thing to gays in 21st century America, btw. The already obscenely rich and powerful are getting richer and more powerful for playing on bigotry.)

But, consider for a moment how many Americans identify with Hagee’s stance. Aren’t the same people who say this candidate or that candidate shouldn’t be president, or isn’t a Christian, or isn’t a patriot because s/he’s not pro-Israel the same people who persist at slurs like: “Did you see that guy rip me off?! The Jew.” Or, “He Jewed me on that deal.” It happens everyday in America, more than once. It happens everyday on this forum, more than once. Secretly, don’t large numbers of real patriots who judge others talk out of both sides of their mouths on the issue Israel and Judaism?

I disagree with both Hagee and Wright for using the Christian pulpit for anything other than spreading the Good News. I disagree with Hagee more for presuming to speak for God and God’s intention in the deaths of six million innocents.

But, nothing about a broad cross section of Americans being unable or unwilling to really closely examine this situations for their meanings surprises me. I think McCain took a real risk cutting Hagee loose, because I think significant numbers of “Christian” believers who want a candidate who’ll “defend Israel” are more truly bigots whose belief is that Jews are a bunch of cheats who “Jew” us in every deal.

“The unexamined life may not be worth living”, but they go to the polls in significant numbers without regard for the destruction they bring to this nation and its ideals.

I won’t ever bring myself to a point where I need to call another poster any names. I’m able to disagree agreeably. laughter is great! Enjoy yourself.

McCain is DEEPLY troubling with this.

Not so much because of the words of these men. But because he apparently knew NOTHING about them.

This gives us an idea who would fill out a McCain administration.

People that look good at a quick glance but are either crazy or unqualified when looked at closer.

And is this how McCain would make the balance of his decisions as President? Go doggedly one direction only to suddenly switch and go 180 degrees the other way?

With all due respect to his troubled service and his advanced age, and taking them fully into account, this man should be taken care of. Not taking care of anyone or anything.

Thank Republican Party leaders for the way this campaign is going, and probably Karl Rove, in particular. The Swiftboating of Kerry four years ago left a telling mark on how candidates should run their campaign. Kerry’s mistake was thinking that ignoring the ridiculous would make it go away. Thanks to the MSM and the typical mindlessness of the average citizen where politics is involved, candidates now feel the need to go overboard in their responses, hence the “furious backpedalling” and “falling all over themselves”.

It’s that “bright and shiny object” thing. If the majority of people can be distracted, they can be controlled. The REAL issues can be ignored, and who knows what’s really going on behind the scenes? Apparently, B&SO has come back to bite the Repubs in the case of McCain-Hagee-Parsley. Karma at its best. But after all this time of speeches and debates and b.s., we still don’t really know the how’s of the candidates’ platforms, and we will continued to be distracted, until someone steps out of the circle of action/reaction/reaction and does something about it.

“Falwell for Education”

And the fact that Falwell is dead would not hinder his being nominated by McCain.

Isn’t it ironic. Bush complains about Nazi appeasers despite his grandpappy making millions financing the Nazi war machine and getting rich off the labor of Jewish slaves. The following week Israel discusses peace with Syria over Bush’s complaints about this will essentially make Israel a bunch of Nazi appeasers.

Then we come to McCain who sides up with someone who praises God for Hitler and the Holocaust. Didn’t McCain think to check into the religious beliefs of the “agents of intolerance”? The belief of these nutters is that all the Jews have to be gathered into Israel in order for Jesus to come back and slaughter all but 144,000 of them, making Hitler’s Holocaust small by comparison.

Then you have Parsley who thinks the same way but he simply wants a Holocaust against Muslims for the crime of disagreeing with Parsley.

Is McCain remembering the days of his youth when Spaniards slaughtered a bunch of French settlers in Florida for the crime of not being Catholic? McCain did promise more wars, this time it will just be blatant holy wars.

No S&S – they were integral parts of his campaign team and were ’spiritual advisors’. McCain soght them out AFTER their views had been expressed; presumably because they are of like mind.

I haven’t heard that McCain actually has a church he calls home or a pastor he calls his own. Anyone have that info?

These two were pursued by McCain and his operatives for over a year to get their endorsements. “Sucking up” to the RR vote. Too bad someone in his organization hadn’t heard of google! All they saw was the possibility of making McCain look religious in spite of his past “morality” problems.

**McCain sought them out AFTER their views had been expressed; presumably because they are of like mind.**

————

The difference for McCain was that – unlike the major news agencies playing the Rev. Wright clips ad nausem – McCain was given a pass on his choices of religious leaders and the press didn’t make issues of McCain’s choices in endlessly looping video clips. But, the news got out on the web and it got to the point that McCain couldn’t keep ignoring the negative feedback he was getting for aligning himself with such bigots.

Not because they’re of like mind, I believe that’s incorrect.

McCain sought them out because Hagee and Parsley were (a) available* and (b) their television “ministries” gave McCain direct access to GOP values voters who in McCain’s cynical worldview represent the “traditions and national morals” branch of the GOP.

*–McCain had already been rejected by Robertson and Dobson, likely because in face to face meetings the “reverends” accurately deduced that McCain isn’t twice born. McCain couldn’t be counted on to whip the GOP into a froth if these two christian ayatollahs demand it (see amending the US constitution to deny gays equal rights). Hucksters like Hagee and Parsley bit because they wanted the power and money that comes from becoming the “traditions and national morals” leaders in the GOP going forward. For McCain, Hagee and Parsley were merely conduits to voters McCain is clueless about; for Hagee and Parsley climbing onboard the “straight talk Express” is like the dog actually catching the car.

Neither of these possibilities tastes very good. We’ve seen willfulness and bad intel for the last 7 years. The Senator from Arizona demonstrates he would indeed be more of the same.

__________

McCain finished fifth from the BOTTOM in his class at the Naval Academy. I hope people aren’t expecting better.

I have a buton that says “You voted for high gas prices…not me!”

I wear it whenever I get my SUV filled and boy! are some people ashamed of themselves.

“he refuses to be baptized in the church”

————-

What does this mean? Is McCain already baptised in a denomination or church other than the one he attends. I know US presidents often attend an Episcopal church during their term in office whether or not they’re Episcopalians. The Episcopal church has open communion with all baptised persons. Being baptised in the Episcopal church isn’t a requirement of attending and doesn’t result in being considered a “phoney” Christian, as far as I know. So, is McCain an unbaptised person, or is he just not baptisted in the denomination of the church he attends?

“He’s always had a mixed relationship with evangelicals, heretofore a key part of the Republican base. Apparently his decision in 2000 to call Christian leaders “agents of intolerance” did not succeed in winning them over. Go figure.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/politicalperceptions/2008/05/14/the-religification-of-john-mccain/

As Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) courts the Catholic vote, “part of a larger effort to build bridges with religious voters,” The New York Times reports today that his “informal adviser” on Catholic outreach is Deal W. Hudson. In 2004, Hudson advised Bush-Cheney ‘04, serving as “the architect of a Republican effort to court Catholic voters.”

But Hudson was forced to resign after “accusations of sexual misconduct,” as the Times reported on August 19, 2004.

———————–

Sounds like another religious adviser with the same kinds of questionable qualities. Maybe McCain should just give up and quit digging that hole!

Well, Lunch time — Back later!!

So, in trying not to appear “phoney” McCain’s a phoney – I can get there. But, if he was raised an Episcopalian he was raised to believe one baptism is all it takes, because of the role of the Holy Spirit in effecting the baptism NOT because one denomination is truer or because others are “phoney”. If he was baptised in the Baptist church he would not have to be “re”baptised in order to become an Episcopalian.

Right Celtic… BUT in order to become a Baptist, if originally baptized Episcopalian, he would have to be re-baptized…

McCain goes to a Klan rally and seeks out the endorsement of the Grand Wizard of Alabama. The media reports this news and the public is shocked that McCain would associate himself with the KKK. McCain dismisses it by saying, “He’s not my Grand Wizard, it’s not like I attended Klan rallies for the past 20 years.”

All is forgiven.

“McCain goes to a Klan rally and seeks out the endorsement of the Grand Wizard of Alabama.

*****The media reports this news*****

and the public is shocked that McCain would associate himself with the KKK. McCain dismisses it by saying, “He’s not my Grand Wizard, it’s not like I attended Klan rallies for the past 20 years.”

All is forgiven.”

———————–

The media would NEVER report this news about John McCain. That’s the problem.

McCain thinks that it would be seen as cheap and political, if he went through a “full emersion” baptism at this time.
He has put off such until after the election.
However, he was baptised, previously, in another denomination.
As a Catholic, I think the debate over “full emersion” is absurd.
Many people, through out history, were good Christians who did not, ever, come near unfrozen water in a quantity large enough to permit “full emersion” —
But, to each his own.
On this point, I actually respect McCain. He has found a Church he seems to agree with, on many points, but — in his own way, he is making the point that he is, ALREADY a Christian.

OBAMA’S MUSLIM CONNECTION

By Jon Christian Ryter

January 16, 2008

NewsWithViews.com

When Obama broke onto the national political scene in 2004, not only did he attempt to erase all traces his Islamic childhood, but he also tried to erase the nature of his relationship with Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr, the pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ. (When your country is at war with Islamic extremists being a Muslim is not the shortest route to the White House.) Obama has told the media his reason for shielding his pastor was because “…he respected Mr. Wright’s work for the poor and his fight against injustice.” In reality Dr. Wright’s work was to denounce the United States as a white racist nation. That’s not good press for an African American candidate who needs to win a majority of the white vote to win the office of President.

On Dec. 22 at the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa, the locals asked Obama about his Muslim roots. He said: “My father was from Kenya. A lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn’t practice Islam. Truth is, he wasn’t very religious.” That was a lie. Obama’s father and stepfather were devout Islamics. Both faithfully practiced their religion. His stepfather, who had a much greater impact on Obama’s upbringing, was a radical Wahabbi Muslim. “My mother was a Christian from Kansas.” That was also a lie. Obama’s mother, his material grandmother and grandfather were all atheists. “They married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I’ve always been a Christian. The only connection I’ve had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father’s side came from that country. But I’ve never practiced Islam…For a while I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that’s a Muslim country. And I went to school—but I didn’t practice Islam.” Another lie. Obama’s mother married Lolo Soetoro, a Wahabbi extremist who lived in Indonesia. When Obama’s mother moved to Indonesia—before she married her second Muslim husband—she enrolled her son in Francis Assisis Catholic School. He was enrolled as a Muslim because he was a Muslim. The enrollment form required each student to choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when enrolling: Buddhist, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, or Protestant. Had he been a lifelong Christian, or even a recent convert, he—or his mother—would have circled Protestant.

When confronted with this information, Obama said he couldn’t understand how such an error could have happened. Los Angeles Times reporter Paul Watson, who dug into Obama’s allegation of error, said “…his former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama’s grade school teacher as childhood friends, says Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. The registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion classes. The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque.” (Something else Obama claims he never did.) “…Obama’s younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only ‘for big communal events’ not every Friday.” Obama, who belongs to a church that teaches that the Muslims of the world were wronged by both Israel and the United States, cannot afford to be labeled as a “Muslim” by voters who expect the United States to win the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan where their sons and daughters are being killed by Muslims.

Jim Wallis, a Christian antipoverty community activist and a friend of Obama’s said Obama comes from a very secular, skeptical family. His faith is a personal and adult choice. His material grandparents—who were professing atheists—had previously been Baptist and Methodist. His mother’s tutelage leaned towards Islam only because her new husband was an ardent Muslim—and he demanded it.

She was not, however, the docile Muslim housewife most Muslim men expected. Obama’s half-sister Maya admitted that her “…whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim.” Because religion of any type rubbed his mother the wrong way, when he was 10, Obama’s mother sent her son back to Hawaii to live with her parents.

In 2005 Obama met his paternal step-grandmoher (whom he calls his grandmother). Sarah Hussein Obama, 85, who lives in Kenya. She told the New York Times that she is “…a strong believer of Islamic faith,” adding that she still rises at 5 a.m. to pray for an hour before tending to her crops and the three orphans she has taken in.

A camera which caught Obama on the political stage during a fund raiser for Sen. Tom Harkin in Iowa with presidential candidates Bill Richardson and Hillary Clinton shows his lack of respect to this nation during the singing of the National Anthem. Angered that the photo was released (and because the reporter erroneously stated the photo was taken during the Pledge of Allegiance rather than the singing of the national anthem, Obama said: “This is the classic dirty trick. This was not the Pledge of Allegiance. The woman was singing the Star Spangled Banner.”

As a sign of respect to their nation, many Americans place their hand over their heart when the National Anthem is played as well as when they recite the Pledge. In his case, Obama said “…I was taught by my grandfather that you put your hands over your heart during the Pledge of Allegiance. The Star Spangled Banner, you sing.” Only, when you look at the photo, its very clear that neither Obama nor the others on stage are singing. It was, however, the singing of the national anthem.

All the time he was around either his father or stepfather, Obama was either in Hawaii or Indonesia. Thus, neither his paternal grandfather nor the father of his stepfather would have tutored him on placing his hand over his heart during the US Pledge of Allegiance, nor the singing the American Star Spangled Banner. Rest assured that Indonesian homes don’t recite the Pledge or sing the US national anthem. And while Hawaii had been a State for three years before Obama was born, logic suggests its not likely an atheist mother and an Islamic father would teach him to recite the Pledge of Allegiance or sing the Star Spangled Banner.

In his teen years Obama moved back to Honolulu where he lived with his maternal grandparents. In his rebuttal, you will recall, Obama claimed his grandfather had taught him to place his hand over his heart during the Pledge, and to sing the national anthem. History has a problem with that on both sides of the family. Like his mother who was an atheist, so were her parents. Obama’s grandmother, he said in interviews, “…was too rational and too stubborn to accept anything she couldn’t see, feel, touch or count.” His maternal grandfather was also an atheist who “…had an innate rebelliousness and a complete inability to discipline his appetites…who…experimented with marijuana and cocaine.” An atheist is not going to teach his grandson to respect the Pledge of Allegiance which pays homage to God.

In a wave of violence aimed at protesting what they call the illegal election of newly-elected Kenyan President Mwai Kibaki, a group of Christian women and children—some entire families—barricaded themselves in a church. Muslims, inflamed by Odinga’s men, torched the church and burned to death everyone inside. This is the man Obama campaigned for in Kenya, and sang the praises of. This is also the man who claims that Barack Obama is a close, personal friend. Christianity would be outlawed.

The American people need to be asking Barack Obama a whole different list of questions when they attend his political rallies on his quest to become the leader of the free world. They need to ask the man who he really is because, up to this point on the campaign trail, he has lied to them. The American people need to find an honest candidate. Barack Obama is not that man.

Clearly the McCain dilemma could be summed up as: “What proffith a man who pick up the RW nuts support if he loseth the Jewish support?”

Regular
It is MATERNAL not MATERIAL

Did you copy and paste, or retype it yourself?

I have a 90 year old client that had colon cancer two years ago, and is now in full recovery.

Skin cancer is common, skin cancer is a huge problem if neglected, but McCain caught it early.

“Franklin” counters with –

I have a 90 year old client that had colon cancer two years ago, and is now in full recovery.

Skin cancer is common, skin cancer is a huge problem if neglected, but McCain caught it early.

Most recently, McBush “caught it early” last February and neglected, until Friday’s document dump, to tell anyone.

On August 18, 1913, the roulette wheel in Monte Carlo landed on Black 26 times in a row.

“Franklin” would’ve bet on the 27th turn.

Liberty University’s MUSLIM Connection:

“First Former Muslim to Become Dean of an Evangelical Seminary in the U.S.”

http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=6849&sid=23

So, Liberty University School of Theology founded by Jerry Falwell in Lynchburg, VA is headed up by a converted Muslim.

Well now, that entire institution and everyone associated with it are really a bunch of Christian-hating, Anti-American terrorists who don’t believe in God and are out to get us all and put an end to our way of life. Indeed, the people of Liberty University will be throwing wide open the doors of this great nation to all Islamic terrorists to come behead us in our neighborhoods so that American blood can run in our streets!!!!!!!!!!

I’d say that I wish some of you guys would do your homework and take care judging others before you have a better grasp of the facts. But, it wouldn’t stop you from the ridiculous things you say. Or the destructive, divisive way you apply the rules differently to yourselves than others.

Covet your ignorance it all you have and the best you have to offer.

Franklin asks: “And what of those who die before adulthood, who are NOT baptised?”

———————–

Baptists don’t believe baptism is a requirement for salvation. As Regular posted clearly, “Once you accept Christ, your sins are washed away and the Baptism is a symbolic public confession of that action. It also follows the example set by John the Baptist and Jesus Christ Himself.

Franklin
Posted May 24, 2008 at 2:39 pm | Permalink
Regular
And what of those who die before adulthood, who are NOT baptised?

I find much to respect, in the Baptist Faith.

However, there are other Sacraments, in Orthodox and Catholic Faith, which absolutely require the acceptance Jesus and the Trinity, later in life.

Communion, Pennance, Confirmation, etc. Baptism was not, historically, theologically or logically, reserved for adults.

This, and Baptists will not admit that Jesus turned water in to wine (NOT “grape juice”) and Baptists will not admit that Jesus turned wine into his own Blood (NOT “grape juice”) at the last supper, well, these things keep me from being a Baptist.

Again, no disrespect towards Baptists is intended here.

I, for one, restate my hunch: McCain agrees with much within the Baptist faith, but the Baptist view of Baptism is hard to swallow, for many of us.
——————
It’s somewhat complex, but not really.

The innocent, those who have not heard nor are knowing in their heart will be taken up in the Rapture.

Baptism is not always required. The thief on the cross that accepted God went to Heaven.

The believers of prophecy (Old Testament)of Christ’s coming will go to Heaven, because of their belief.

Those who know in their Heart of God and accept Him will go to Heaven or during the time of Rapture be challenged to make a choice.

As far as the wine is concerned, that’s not true. Baptist believe the miracles of Jesus, the water into wine as well. The misconception comes from that they do not use alcohol based products when they have communion. It’s the communion with Christ that matters, not the alcohol content of the grape juice.

Finally, those who have heard and reject there is a God will have decided in their hearts. God knows the hearts of men.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” John 3:36

What about the not so “good” Christians?

“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:3

The tribulation period Revelation:

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” Revelation 2:11

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Revelation 3:5.

What about those who hate?
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Those who deny Christ:

“And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”
REVELATION 20:15

Anyone who does not live in the US would be stunned over the amount of space, time and air given to religious associations of a politician, except perhaps for some Islamic States. I just can’t get over it, issues and questions on temporal things have to take a back seat. I’ve noted very hostile intra-Christian posts amongst posters usually coming from 3-4 sources, and I just can’t figure why. Is it blatant bias or just good ole’ xenophobia. Kinda reminds me of Northern Ireland some days for raised as a Catholic, I knew of these things and it was terrible, just terrible. Jeez I hope we can get past this hallmark of US politics…..and life.

The preoccupation with politician’s religious associations is newer to America, it wasn’t always this way. In recent years a radical group of Americans envision Christianity governing every aspect of public and private life. They interject their view of “correct” into all areas of government, science, history, culture, and relationships. They are determined to legislate morality. And those people who see this radical movement for what it is also see that a theocracy based on Christianity is no different than a theocracy based on a differing religious belief.

Libs
As usual, most of you are completely wrong on the “Church and State” issues.
At the time our national Constitution was ratified, many individual states had their own OFFICIAL State Religion. Nobody, at the time, thought that the Constitution forbid such official State-Sponsored Church relationships.
Also, Samuel Adams, I man I greatly respect and admire, had some rather unflattering things to say about the Catholic Church. I do not hold those comments against him.
I urge all of you to watch “Gangs of New York” — a fictional movie but based on historical, cultural facts.
The religious divisions, in this country, are actually far less obvious than they have been, at any other time in our history.

Correct Franklin. The division against faiths/religion was even more volantile prior to the beginning of our country. There are many stories about the persecution, torture, enslavement and murder of Christians or those who would not adhere to the premise and ‘religion’ of the state.

Many were persecuted.

True regular. And many more were also persecuted BY Christians because they were not Christian. Or because they were the wrong ‘brand’ of Christians.

Not to mention all the women tortured and bar-b-qued for being ‘witches’

Actually, Jefferson’s Virginia Staute of Religious Freedom was instrumental in the drafting of the First Amendment’s guarantee of religious freedom. While it does not specifically say so in the Amendment itself, Jefferson was completely committed to a wall of separation between church and state seeing that personal freedoms could only be secured when the state did not have an interest in controlling people’s beliefs.

http://www.lva.lib.va.us/whatwedo/k12/bor/vsrftext.htm#trans

Or,

“Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that… of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support.” –Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

Jefferson is saying that as a matter of conscience and historical reality I not only get to disagree with the religious right on the role of the State and religion, but that it’s a fact of my liberty and (from the Declaration) a right that I must not give up.

Celtic
Let me put that another way:
For many who have had horrible experiences, in life, faith has pulled them through.

However, we all know God in different ways.

Just as I might not know that my good friend and neighbor was once a military hero, or once dropped out of High School, or once got arrested for shoplifting or was once a drug addict, that does not mean that I do not “know” him, does it?

I know that, if I ask, he will help me jump start my car, and that I can trust him to pay me back, if I loan him money or tools.

Who knows him best? Me? Or the people he works with? Or the people who he grew up with?

Likewise, we can all KNOW God, in different ways.

Like my neighbor, error is possible in that knowledge.

Some might claim that he was NEVER in the military, can NEVER be trusted and that he Graduated with the Highest GPA from his High School.

I happen to believe that religious error is avoided best by leaving true JUDGEMENT to God.

As far as Faith goes, Christianity has been around for 2,000 years, and I happen to believe that the OLDEST faiths are probably closer to the truth.

Even then, however, the Apostles did NOT have a perfect knowledge of God.

More to the point, God HAS spoken to people, since the cross and resurection.

So, who am I to say who knows God the best?

Politics should NEVER be about who the “best” believer might be.

However, it is entirely acceptable for Americans to insist that their leaders have SOME degree of faith.

I do not want anyone with the power of life and death, and nuclear arms, to think for a moment that God is not watching.

If someone claims to be a believer, and can defend their faith (and that faith is NOT radical Islam) — I am going to be ok with that person.

Character DOES count, and religious beliefs do indicate a desire to live a good life and an acceptance of univeral morality and rules.

None of us do a perfect job living up to those rules — but I have trouble with people who do not think that any rules really exist.

Yes, religion is important in public life.

Always has been.

Always will be.

Celtic
Do you CLAIM that Obama converted from the Moslem faith to Christianity?
The head of Liberty University RISKS his head, by admitting that fact.
The Moslem Faith has strict rules about those who leave that Faith.

Celtic
Actually, you SOUND like a Moslem.
Argue with any Moslem, about the Christian Faith, and their arguments sound like YOURS!

Moslems believe that Jesus was NOT divine.

Moslems also believe that Jesus did NOT die on the cross, they believe that JUDAS died in His place.

Moslems view Christians, and Christianity, as “weak” — for many of the reasons that you have stated.

Linda
I am Catholic.
I objected to Celtic bigoted view of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.
I can see his bigotry, even though I am NOT a member of the groups he attacked.

Celtic meets ONE member of what he views as the “religious right” and uses that ONE person as an example of why he does not like MILLIONS of people?

What is “bigotry” if not the unfair stereo-typing and classification of different groups of people, based on race or faith or culture?

WS
I am free to “JUDGE” who gets my vote.
I am free to tell others the basis for that judgement.
Many who do not get my vote will make it to Heaven.
Many who do get my vote will go elsewhere.

The late Wanda Fuller once told me, “Politics is not about saving souls, politics is about getting souls who agree with you to the polls” —

And, of course FAITH is a good way to figure out who might actually agree with you.

“I am free to “JUDGE” who gets my vote.”

Great – you should do so.

Just don’t throw your so-called Christian attitudes into the mix.

They are lies and have no relevancy to the subject matter.

Of course, you still think that Barack Obama is a “secret” Muslim.

Preacher problems?

That’s really the least of McClames problems.

Last weeks change of heart (liberal heart) on illegal immigration is enough to disgust many. Funny, during the competition for the Republican nomination, McClame claimed he had heard from the American people and that his previous position was wrong.

Well he is wrong again.

Can’t wait to show my displeasure at the polls. I don’t care if the vote was 50-50, and my vote would put a republican back in the white house – I’ll be looking for ANYONE ELSE on the ballot. Liberatian on the ballot?

OK a TIMELINE of US Constitutional history:

1779 Jefferson and Madison write the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom

1786 the state of Virginia makes the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom law.

May 1787 – Sept 1787 the Constitutional Convention meets to draft, and accept, the United States Constitution.

June 21, 1788 the US Constitution is ratified by the states.

Dec 15, 1791 the Bill of Rights – the first ten amendments of the US Constitution – INCLUDING the First Amendment with it roots for religious freedom in the 1786 Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom – goes into effect through and act of Congress.

By the way, Jefferson had returned to the United States from France in 1789 well in advance of the Bill of Rights going into effect in 1791.

k, mini history lesson:

True or False:

The Bill of Rights is the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution. (Hint: true)

True or False:

The US constitution was ratified by the states in 1788. (Hint: true)

True or Flase:

The Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution in 1791 AFTER the Virginia Statute For Religious Freedom set a precedent in 1786, AFTER Jefferson returned from France in 1789, and AFTER the Constitution was ratified by the states in 1788.
(HINT: TRUE)

Monkeyhawk
Posted May 24, 2008 at 5:37 pm | Permalink
“Franklin” states –

“I happen to believe that the OLDEST faiths are probably closer to the truth.”

I had no idea you were a Hindu!

—————–

LOL!

Do you suppose he takes communion just to be on the safe side just in case there’s something to that new-fangled Jesus Christianity stuff?

CF2K
Posted May 24, 2008 at 5:21 pm

Um, no. As I’ve written here, Hillary Clinton is a protege of Doug Coe, the creepy DC Wingnut power-brokering pastor who heads “The Fellowship,” otherwise known as “The Family.”

CF2K, is that the religious cult founded by David Berg? IIRC, there was a lot of sex and child porn involved back in the 80s. If that’s the case, maybe Hillary has a lot of ’splainin to do.

Actually
Obama and Clinton are BOTH liberals, but liberals who will compromise on just about everything, if that is what it takes to gain power.
McCain is frustrating to conservatives because he is so stubborn, especially when McCain is wrong.

Politics is EASY for those who do not really believe in anything, other than themselves.

Nano
I think that more than one cult has had the “Family” name attached to it.
I do not think the Berg cult and the Coe organization are connected.

WS
“There you go again” —

When have I EVER said that Obama was a “secret Moslem”???

I never have.

I do think that Obama has strong Moslem sympathies. Heck, his church gave an award to a Nation of Islam leader.

But, you are again judging me based on what you think I believe, rather than anything I have actually said.

Franklin,

WSClark has your number.

“Franklin
Posted May 24, 2008 at 5:08 pm | Permalink
Celtic
Do you CLAIM that Obama converted from the Moslem faith to Christianity?
The head of Liberty University RISKS his head, by admitting that fact.
The Moslem Faith has strict rules about those who leave that Faith.”

Your plausible deniability won’t save you. You and I both know that the latest chain email slandering Obama is pushing the “Obama is a Muslim apostate for leaving the faith” line. Fairly clever attempt to refer to it without referring to it, though.

Nano,

Franklin is quite right: Doug Coe’s “The Fellowship” has no affiliation with David Berg’s “The Family.” Not that Coe is any less creepy for having no affiliation with Berg.

WS
Look it up.
The Rev. Wright’s church gave an award to Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam.

“The Rev. Wright’s church gave an award to Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam.”

So phucking what – do you want to kill all Muslims like “Pastor” Parsley?

Eh?

I am about damned sick and tired of you “holier-than-thou” right wing Christians.

May you all rot in Hell.

And soon.

WS
It would seem, to even the casual observer, that someone who would damn any other person, or group of people, to Hell, would, perhaps, feel “holier” than those he had just damned, would it not?

First, WS, you say that I am not telling the truth.

Then, when I prove what I say is true, you tell me, in so many words, that what I say does not matter, even if it is true, since I belong in Hell, in your mind, and you are, therefore, allowed to be wrong when you judge me?

Twisted world you live in.

“perhaps, feel “holier” than those he had just damned, would it not?”

No Rossell, I am not “holier” than anyone on this Earth – I just despise those that would claim superiority based on their view of Christianity.

For the record, I only believe in Hell for those that would twist the words of Christ to suit their own purposes.

In other words, folks like you.

“Political firing squads always form a circle”

This was true with the Communist Boshevics killed off the Communist Trotskyites, in Russia —

This was true when Hitler killed off the “Brown Shirts” for being Gay, when Hitler knew full well that his Brown Shirts were always led by gays (who were getting too powerful for him).

Reagan and Bush Sr were not buddies.

Bob Dole and the Bush family were never close.

Gerald Ford was not very kind to Ronald Reagan, even so Reagan worked his tail off, after the primary, to help Ford.

On the Democrat side, I can remember the Ted Kennedy, Jimmy Carter fights.

I also remember 1968, but I was only 10 years old at the time.

Politics is about power. Those who seek power will, naturally, think that they deserve power, and also will tend to believe that their opponents do NOT deserve power.

Such dynamics do not generate pillow talk.

Don’t credit me with ever saying Barack Obama was Muslim. I never did. That wasn’t the issue I brought up. I said:

“Explain to me how you suck out of your thumb the conclusion that one convert is better than another.”

I never, ever said that Obama was a Muslim. My question was how does one person get to chose the goodness of another person’s conversion experience. I’ve gathered from remarks that Obama has made that he “became” a Christian, that he came into life in the Christian faith. I never said he converted from Islam to do it. Maybe he converted from not having an especially well defined religious faith of any particular sort? I dunno, but he does say he’s a Christian. He does say he has a life in the Church.

It has been INSISTED that Obama is Muslim and therefore he;s not a real Christian and not a real American. I’m saying the head of the Liberty School of Theology REALLY is a Muslim who converted to the Christian faith. Doesn’t the same judgement hold true for him that he’s not a real Christian and not a real American?

‘Cause, frankly, that just sounds like more religious right double talk: Well, if he’s OUR convert he’s OK. And if he’s YOUR convert he’s not.

Not only that. But, I believe the point I made was that people who are shooting off their mouths about Obama and his faith had one of their own sitting right in one of their own schools of theology and they didn’t even know it. hadn’t bothered to know it. And didn’t expect, once again, to be caught in their ignorance about it. You want to have credibility? Do your homework and find out the facts before you go shooting off you mouth in judging other peoples’ faith.

WS
A few years back, Bush even made the proposal that refineries be built on closed military bases.

Maybe the oil companies could fix some of their refining issues by reopening the refinery in Augusta and the one that, as far as I know, is closed in El Dorado. They’ve been sitting idle for – what? – twenty-five years. Can you imagine what a boost that would be to Augusta and southcentral Kansas? I just think this administration and big oil are more interested in their own profits than they are in the well-being of the American people. That’s my conclusion. Others???

Refineries is a non issue.

Has anyone ever experienced a gas station running out of gas recently? Exactly.

In fact, I should think that the oil companies themselves in alliance with the futures traders would likely OPPOSE any increase in refining capacity.

This is why drilling for the meager supply of oil in the US is not relevant or helpful. The refineries are running at capacity now. More oil would just sit in storage tanks waiting to be refined.

But let’s get back to those gas stations that are never out of gas.

The supply of gasoline remains pretty much constant. Otherwise, stations would at least occasionally run out of the stuff.

We are being had. There is no shortage of gasoline. There are just greedy futures traders using every fart and sneeze in the world to jack the price.

fwiw, my new favorite poster here is CelticKin.

Way to go, bro. Jesus, if only a quarter of us here could write so thoughtfully, this place would NOT be the vermin infested hellhole people like me have so obviously made it. Thank you for your thoughtfulness as expressed here. :D

Also, here’s a shout out to filmfan. And others, too (my memory for new names is sinfully crappy, and I sincerely regret that in me).

Steve, ya think a rethink of yer sorely observed absence her is in order now? I’m thinking it should, bro. :D

PS Here’s to the “memorial” part of Memorial Day. Thanks, yall men and women of the armed forces. ALL of youse: thank you.

Pedant, not Pendant, ya notch-obvlious pissant.

It’s all right, I love ya anywayz. :D

Franklin, it can not be both ways of faulting Obama for attending the same Christian church for twenty years. And still question his religious alliance as to whether he is Moslem or Christian. The very fact he attended a Christian church for that long is a sure sign he is not a Moslem. It answers any question as to that matter.

Having worked in the oil industry I agree that refinery capacity is NOT the issue. I was there when they shuttered refineries due to (a) overcapacity and (b) increased throughput at other refineries due to ‘debottlenecking’. We easily have sufficient refining capacity – the problem lies with the limited resource of crude.

If you look carefully at the pronouncements of the industry you will see that they say the same thing – it is not refining where the problem lies.

As for emptying our own remaining reserves that will simply hasten the BIG crash when we no longer have liquid fuels but also no longer have chemical feedstocks. George Bush has mouthed the words that we need to end our addiction to oil. Now we need to replace those empty words with action.

writerdon – “Franklin, it can not be both ways of faulting Obama for attending the same Christian church for twenty years. And still question his religious alliance as to whether he is Moslem or Christian.” You should know by now that Paul CAN have it both ways – he has never let the truth get in the way of his talking points.

okobserver – and it does not help to have the entire Bush family being cozy friends with the Saudis, does it?

BTW, doesn’t Bob Dole also lobby for some Saudis? Is it to keep the US dependent on the Middle East oil?

I think it is both Democrats and Republicans fault. I also think it is the greed of big oil willing to sell America’s soul for more profit.

Have any of you ever noticed that John Hagee’s face looks like some fat woman’s ass?

ok – that guy at Phillips overstated his view of our reserves – and/or underestimated our insatiable appetite. We do, however, have enough nuclear material ON HAND to fuel reactors for at least a couple of centuries. We don’t even have to dig it out of the ground.

Better yet, if you put a dress and a bonnet on him and gave him a hachet, he’d look just like Carrie A Nation.