“In another era, a memo declassified just the other day would have been accounted a ‘smoking gun,’ and the nation would have been abuzz with speculation about whose heads would roll and how far. Nowadays? Ho-hum,†columnist Tom Teepen wrote about the Bush torture memo.
The 2003 memo by John Yoo, then a deputy in the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, claimed that contrary laws could not bar the president from authorizing the abuse of detainees. Another memo by Yoo the previous year narrowed the definition of torture to acts that caused major organ failure or equivalent injury. The torture memo helped “drag the nation into international disrepute as a torturing power answerable neither to international law, treaty commitments nor even its own laws and Constitution,†Teepen wrote. Yet will anyone be held accountable?
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81 Comments
The outrage is reflected in the 81% of Americans who think the country is on the wrong track. Someone said that this is the HIGHEST “wrong track” number that has ever been recorded. Citizens have been outraged by the Bush/Cheney Admin. and the Tom Delay-led corrupt congress for sooo many years, the level of background outrage has become the constant din, and new outrage noise has a hard time competing with the standard and usual outrage.
Translation — their pocketbooks are hurting.
I’m outraged that more Americans aren’t outraged.
Sadly I think Door King is right. We have become so shallow, so introverted as a society that we no longer care about humanity.
AHEM!
Both memorandums were later withdrawn — in good part thanks to the honorable opposition of top military attorneys…
Sensationalist headlines to stir things up eh Brownlee?
There’s just so much to be outraged about anymore that I haven’t had time to be outraged about a 5 year-old memo that’s been withdrawn. Perhaps I can make some time next Wednesday. I’ll try to work it in between my outrage about how property tax appraisals were handled this year, and outrage that some dingbats want me to vote to spend more money on a broken education system that turns out HS grads that can’t read and write. Or maybe I can take some time out from being outraged about what it cost me to fill up at the gas pump yesterday.
Phillip, do you suppose we’re just burnt out on the outrage thing?
My outrage has been all worn out over the last four years, time and time again things like this have been uncovered. Mainly because they have been common knowledge all a long, left laying out in the open for anyone to see. But why keep bring them up? There is nothing going to be done, there was enough evidence even in 2002 and yet the Emperor strolled down the street naked!
It falls to an old adage “Sometimes, no matter what you do, the Dragon wins!”.
Where’s the outrage in the world over terrorists slitting the throats of airline attendants and pilots before flying planes into buildings and killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children?
Where’s the outrage in the world with the beheading with a sword or dull knife of innocent reporters, opposition members, and civilians filmed and broadcast worldwide?
Where’s the outrage in the world when the people responsible for murdering Americans are still living in freedom, and in the name of their God pledge their lives to kill more of us?
Where is the outrage in the world when our very own troops are tortured and murdered by fanatics?
The bad guys have no requirement to follow the Laws of War, Geneva Convention, or moral/ethical behavior.
Meanwhile, you whine and cry about torturing murderers - who would gladly give their lives to kill YOU with zero compasion. You are our own worst enemy.
Some people cannot see the forest through the trees.
I posted this on the open thread as well:
American, of the USA
Posted April 5, 2008 at 6:23 am | Permalink
Political_mama,
1. The physiology of the human body is ample evidence against why homosexual and/or lesbian same sex relationships are normal.
2. More evidence is that homosexual and/or lesbian same sex relationships are unable to procreate unto themselves.
3. This is quite evident in science.
How do you reply to this?
Note: I respect every individual and the life that they hold.
#
Regular
Posted April 5, 2008 at 6:34 am | Permalink
AHEM!
Both memorandums were later withdrawn — in good part thanks to the honorable opposition of top military attorneys…
Sensationalist headlines to stir things up eh Brownlee?
Cherry picking today are we? Let me finish that for ya:
. . .but their premise and the license they granted lingered in policies and practices.
Take two helium balloons and talk to the hand:-)
aotusa,
Your first post resulted in whats called the war on terror.
Your second? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ FILL IN THE BLANKS
I’m with ya Phil.
But you forget the sad state of America.
If you want outrage? Interrupt American idol or March madness with a tornado warning announcement on TV. That’ll get ya some outrage.
I’m with dog. I was outraged long ago.
Most people were apathetic. Then you had folks like American Way, who must believe that the only way to defeat terrorists and thugs is to become terrorists and thugs.
If that’s the “American Way,” then this is no longer the America I knew. Sickening.
“J M Walker
Posted April 5, 2008 at 8:03 am | Permalink
aotusa,
Your first post resulted in whats called the war on terror.
Your second? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ FILL IN THE BLANKS”
Gee JM,
I guess I don’t know the rules for your game above.
Care to illicit in some minor intelligent way what you are talking about?
English is not all that hard, you know?
The apathy of Americans about everything in their lives is terrible.
It seems that no one feels it is their responsibility to even voice an opinion about any meaningful subject. I could list a long recount of issues we should be talking about and asking questions of ALL our elected Representatives.
In this case I’m quite sure I’m “preaching to the Choir”, as there is no shortage of opinion in these posts.
I will however raise this question.
Is the availability of posting your comments on this type of forum a “replacement” for letting those who actually sit in positions of “power” know our opinions as well?
If this is as far as we go, then we too are guilty of being as apathetic as those who totally ignore everything.
We need to take our country back at all levels, and we must be INVOLVED and OUTSPOKEN, so the people who need to hear hear us.
The VOTE is our voice. We need to make sure we never sell it.
“Gee JM,
I guess I don’t know the rules for your game above.”
It’s what called a rhetorical statement. I wouldn’t expect you to understand, nor was it directed at you.
Teepen wrote. Yet will anyone be held accountable?
What I want to know is, when will Tom Teepen be held accountable for journalistic malpractice? With the passing of the disgusting Molly Ivins a couple of years back, Teepen has assumed the role of the most wild eyed, far left, whack job out there. Like so many of his brethren on the left, his every waking moment is consumed by his overwhelming hatred of President Bush and the conservatives. He also knows his party has been saddled with a couple of unelectable losers and so he and his kind are going to feed us a continuing stream of dredged up “old news”while asking “wheres the outrage”? The fact that seems to escape Tom Teepen and most of the posters on this thread is that most Americans have no problem with the president authorizing mild torture techniques to be used on terrorist prisoners, especially if another terrorist attack can be averted by information gained in such a manner.
There is probably so little outrage because the Bush regime does this sort of thing daily. Every day it’s another war crime from the Bush regime, every day they violate someone’s civil liberties, every day they get some American killed in Iraq. People are losing their homes, people are losing their jobs, people are struggling to pay higher and higher bills with their credit cards forcing them into a lifetime of debt, and so on. The torture memo where murder is called, “just a bit too much torture” is just another layer of filth on Bush’s dung cake legacy.
The Eagle gave their endorsement to Bush in 2004 when it was known people were being tortured. Where was the Eagle’s outrage back then?
Right, Chris. Why should a president be bound by such silly old notions as obeying the law ? The president is above the law , right?
That’s what your’re advocating, even if you don’t have the wit to realize it. Read the article.
Allah thanks you for your humane treatment of Muslims. It is very sad you need to beat and torture Muslims, to discover our secrets.We expect the Koran to be held with dignity by all peoples of the world.
In Allah’s name, I beseech you to put down your American tyranny and embrace Allah as the one true God. His warriors deserve dignity. Your oppression of the most favored will result in your ultimate fall.
There is no limit our wrath, and Allah will be avenged!
(This has been a public service announcement paid for by the Committee to Prevent the Unethical Treatment of Muslims.)
What law did President Bush violate?
Come on libs, NAME the laws that were violated by George W. Bush, RIGHT NOW, or shut up!
The fact is, the Geneva Conventions were intended as a TREATY between NATIONS.
The Geneva Conventions were never meant as a mandate on how any country should treat illegal enemy combatants, who do not answer to any state or military chain of command.
There is NO treaty that tells any country how to treat other criminals. (Unless, perhaps, you include extradition treaties. However, has anyone tried ot extradite the terrorists at GITMO? Of course not! Other countries do not want those terrorists around.)
If you want to make the case that immoral things happen in war, you can make that argument without any real argument from anyone.
If you want to make the case that individual people have done some immoral, and illegal acts in this war, again you will have very little argument. (While, perhaps, after the Haditha Marines were vindicated, I might not listen to Murtha anymore).
However, the policy of the United States Government is not immoral in any way shape or form. It is a hallmark of the “justifiable use of force”: Force is justified to save and protect lives, but only that force which is necessary.
Furthermore, there is NO law that prevents or outlaws the stated policy of this Government.
And
As stated upthread, Teepan is a sensationalist.
Any President who wants good advice should have someone willing to explore the limits, or argue to the extreem, in any manor.
“Best case, worst case, compromise” — this is how a deliberative body should work.
These memos NEVER became US Policy, but it would have been high malpractice for these issued to be ignored or unexplored.
A brief reminder of the subject of the thread. From TFA:
In it, John Yoo, then a deputy in the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, held that contrary federal laws could not bar the president from authorizing the abuse of detainees.
The 2003 memo followed one from the previous year, also largely Yoo’s work, that had narrowed the definition of torture to acts that caused major organ failure or equivalent injury.
Both memorandums were later withdrawn — in good part thanks to the honorable opposition of top military attorneys — but their premise and the license they granted lingered in policies and practices.
Detainees in U.S. custody have been submitted to repeated near-drowning, extreme hot and cold, blatant nakedness and other humiliations, menacing attack dogs and more. Described by the Bush administration only as “harsh,” techniques have been used that have been understood as torture since medieval times.
Bizarrely, the memo argues that treaties, such as the Geneva Accords, do not apply to a president’s actions in wartime — although the very point of the accords is to regulate the actions of signatory nations in wartime.
The memo also implicitly served to whitewash the trendy conservative argument for a “unitary executive” — or a nearly unfettered presidency. The result has been an administration of uncommon secrecy, disdainful of customary civil liberties and resorting in unprecedented number to “signing statements,” by which Bush nullified legislation he has himself signed.
The memo says that the president has the right to ignore laws he doesn’t like.
Do try to keep up, Paul.
P.S. And it’s not the only such memo to come from this White House.
Do you have a link Rage?
Man, your name just speaks of being out of control.
That’s what rage is.
“1. angry fury; violent anger.
2. a fit of violent anger.
3. fury or violence of wind, waves, fire, disease, etc.
4. violence of feeling, desire, or appetite: the rage of thirst.
5. a violent desire or passion. ”
Is that you?
Rage
I believe you have a problem with logic.
As your post above makes clear, the GENEVA CONVENTIONS are between SIGNATORY NATIONS!
When did the Taliban and OBL ever sign said Treaty?
Also, the Geneva Conventions take a great deal of time and effort to explain who is, and who is NOT covered by each part of said treaty.
Is it your position that the Geneva Conventions cover every single human being on the face of the Earth, no matter their military status, no matter their behavior, and no matter where they are captured?
Of course, you would be wrong if you feel the need to make that argument, but feel free to try.
The memo’s advice was overturned as the article stated.
This is all would of, could of, should of crapola.
The article is a meaningless hornets nest to keep the conspiracy-minded blog troglodytes busy.
Do you have a link Rage?
Hello Rage?
Are you there?
Do you have a link Rage?
Paul, you’ve been educated on this subject before so therefore you are being willfully stupid. Here, let me repeat the obvious to you:
“The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.”
“Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; ”
It’s pretty straightforward Paul. America signed the Geneva Convention treaty, it agreed to follow the dictates. Whether or not another country signs is completely irrelevant and you know it.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
TFA means The F**king Article. That tells me who didn’t read it.
Link: click on the word wrote in Phillip’s summary.
This was also in the article Rage:
Both memorandums were later withdrawn — in good part thanks to the honorable opposition of top military attorneys…
How many years will it take to rebuild our standing as a nation who can legitimately speak out against human rights abuses and torture by others.
Both memorandums were later withdrawn. . .
. . .but effectively–and openly!–continued as policy. This administration has repeatedly argued that’s it’s above the law, and has literally ignored hundreds of laws, via both its illegal actions and its improper “signing statements.”
Hey Rage,
I was speaking about the unclassified memo from the Whitehouse.
You are quoting it.
You got a link?
#
Rage
Posted April 5, 2008 at 11:37 am | Permalink
Both memorandums were later withdrawn. . .
. . .but effectively–and openly!–continued as policy. This administration has repeatedly argued that’s it’s above the law, and has literally ignored hundreds of laws, via both its illegal actions and its improper “signing statements.”
—————-
Pure bunkum and speculation.
Provide some evidence or stop wagging your accusatory finger.
“David B
Posted April 5, 2008 at 11:36 am | Permalink
How many years will it take to rebuild our standing as a nation who can legitimately speak out against human rights abuses and torture by others.”
As many years as it takes to re-establish what rights are, as opposed to priveleges, and wrong ideas of rights.
Nobody has a right to attack this country, as some would believe, and kill innocent people.
But, but, but, Bush looked into the eyes of sweet high school children and told them that America doesn’t torture. Bush is even lying to children? That can’t possibly be true. He’ll sit in a classroom and read My Pet Goat with them no matter what trifling things are going on outside.
The memo:
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/pdfs/OLCMemo20-39.pdf?sid=ST2008040102264
Nobody has a right to attack this country, as some would believe, and kill innocent people.
And who, exactly, has even hinted such a thing here?
You must be reading a different blog.
You mean the memo that doesn’t exist as policy Rage?
I once made a typo that was somewhat humorous and tragic, but an admin type caught it before the Commanding Officer saw it.
I typed the word “raped” for “rated.” It had to do with aircraft and I’m sure I would not have gotten into trouble for it, but it would have raised a few eyebrows and wrinkled some foreheads.
My point is, that the memo was a memo that was gunned down and never deployed into policy.
But please continue on with your arm flailing Rage, if it makes you feel better.
Thanks Rage!
From the Washington Post? OK.
A very objective source, wouldn’t you say?
Rage,
The point is:
Gain intelligence to prohibit them attacking us again!
or
Let them come right on in and do it again!
Which one do you choose?
By this, I am not saying we should torture anybody.
A very objective source, wouldn’t you say?
????
From the U.S. Government. I would say not.
By this, I am not saying we should torture anybody.
Your government is.
Doug
Please learn to read:
““Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; ”
It’s pretty straightforward Paul. America signed the Geneva Convention treaty, it agreed to follow the dictates. Whether or not another country signs is completely irrelevant and you know it.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm”
—-
Did anyone in Gitmo “lay down his arms” ???
Weren’t the vast majority of those illegal enemy combatants, that we have captured, “taking (an) active part in hostilities”?
Again, you know what YOU want.
Then you make a false claim that the law supports your position.
The law clearly does NOT support your position.
Rage,
Guess what?
It’s your government and your president too!
You are a taxpayer and a citizen, therefore you are the government, like it or not.
It’s your government and your president too!
You are a taxpayer and a citizen, therefore you are the government, like it or not.
Well, duh. Why do you think I’m so pissed?
Hey Rage,
How do I know that this document, that is presented off of a Washington Post website, clearly an anti Bush newspaper, is accurate?
Iraq and Afganistan ARE of an “international character” — and therefore, perhaps, NOT covered under article 3!
We are NOT dealing with “members of the armed forces” are we? — so also Article 3 does NOT apply!
These illegal enemy combatants WERE taking an active part in hostilities, and so Article 3 does not apply.
How do I know that this document, that is presented off of a Washington Post website, clearly an anti Bush newspaper, is accurate?
Leaving aside your pathetic attempt at misdirection, it’s a PDF file . A captured image of the document that was declassified.
Or are you seriously suggesting that one of the nation’s most well-known, highly-read (and referenced) newspapers would make up a fake document, capture it as a PDF, and misrepresent it before millions as the real thing?
What have you smoking? I don’t want any, thanks.
Have we even forgotten what human rights are… among some off the top of my head: freedom from being tortured… the right to counsel… trials… rights to habeas corpus.
Or are these simply “privileges” to be ignored when it is convenient? Are w to tell that to your petty dictators around the world? Torture is not allowed unless you think it is necessary? HA!
It is well established that torture produces little to no usable information. Look at the great intelligence that Iraq was training Al Quaeda: information from torture by the USA and later found to be untrue.
There are ways to gain intelligence without acting like brutes.
Sometimes I can’t believe it is Americans who can say things that I see in these blogs. I guess morality IS relative, after all?
Besides, tell me again how Iraq was a threat? That toothless old dog Saddam was contained and powerless.
Saddam even used torture…. oops, never mind.. if he thought torture was necessary, under our new moral code…. I guess it was all right!
There are ways to gain intelligence without acting like brutes.
They think TV is reality, and Jack Bauer will save us all. Of course, we know that they’re terrorists, and they have information we need, and even what torture will break them, and get the truth—because we saw them planning their attack in last week’s episode.
Reality is not so convenient.
Saddam used to slowly lower people into wood chippers.
Saddam used to have women raped, in front of their families.
When has the United States done those things, as a matter of policy?
David
Habeas Corpus is not something that a captured non citizen, making war on the United States, should have any right to receive.
It just does NOT apply.
#
Regular
Posted April 5, 2008 at 11:29 am | Permalink
This was also in the article Rage:
Both memorandums were later withdrawn — in good part thanks to the honorable opposition of top military attorneys…
We went through this before, reg:
#
J M Walker
Posted April 5, 2008 at 8:00 am | Permalink
#
Regular
Posted April 5, 2008 at 6:34 am | Permalink
AHEM!
Both memorandums were later withdrawn — in good part thanks to the honorable opposition of top military attorneys…
Sensationalist headlines to stir things up eh Brownlee?
Cherry picking today are we? Let me finish that for ya:
. . .but their premise and the license they granted lingered in policies and practices.
Is there something about including the whole statement you can’t understand, or is cherry picking your standard stock in trade?
Rage,
Econ, Regular and their ilk seem to have respect for the unborn only. After their birth, screw em, and let God sort em out. Anything goes in the name of conservatism.
When has the United States done those things, as a matter of policy?
So: no wood-chipper executions or family rapes. Thanks for sharing your standard for moral government, Paul.
I’m not surprised.
Spot on, Walker!
Rage, your name is most appropriate. As with most of your comrades on the left, you have lost the ability to argue and compete in the arena of ideas with logic and knowledge. The “happy warriors” of the left, JFK, HHH, Paul Simon, etc. have died off or were thrown under the bus a long time ago and all that is left is the emotion driven rage that bleeds through constantly on Blogs, liberal talk radio, and all other media outlets where the left tries to match wits with conservatives( a most unequal contest). Perhaps your rage comes from the fact that the progressive, socialist, humanist political agenda has (somewhat) been stifled since the 94 republican takeover of Congress. Maybe its because that after seven years of constant lies about the President and his administration, so many Americans have still not bought into it. Maybe its because you know that most of the gains the Dems made in 06 were with conservative candidates who had to basically run as republicans to get elected.
Conservatives tend to be much more stoic in the face of political setbacks. We soldier on, confident in the fact that, for all her faults, America is still the light of the World and our constitution and way of life are from the blessings of God. Rage (stress) is not healthy for the human body. Maybe thats why a recent study found that conservatives tend to live longer than Liberals.
Hehehe, 2 adhoms in one thread! If I was doing nothing but hurling insults, that might give me pause. Since that’s not so, I think I must be getting to some people. Sweet!
By the way, since some people seem way curious about my nic, here :
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/07/open_thread_5-3/#comment-59567
“Did anyone in Gitmo “lay down his arms” ???
Weren’t the vast majority of those illegal enemy combatants, that we have captured, “taking (an) active part in hostilities”?
Again, you know what YOU want.
Then you make a false claim that the law supports your position.
The law clearly does NOT support your position.”
As typical Paul you can’t read something that is put right in front of you. Are you seriously telling me that the people we have imprisoned are currently armed? Are you that unbelievably stupid? Are you telling me that America never signed onto the Geneva Convention? Are are so amazingly stupid I can’t accurately describe how moronic you are. You would look at an entire genocide of people and conclude that since these people didn’t form their own government that there was no crime involved. In your demented mentality you justify every atrocity that has ever happened in history.
People like you lock up innocents like Murat Kurnaz or torture innocents like Maher Arar and you thump your chest and call yourself a heroic American because innocent people suffer. If there were ever a definition of evil it would meet your persona. How are you any different than a Muslim who calls upon Allah to thank him for atrocities committed against Americans when you praise your Jesus when suffering is dealt out to Muslims? If anyone ever wondered how German citizens could sit by and allow atrocities committed upon others by their government one just needs to look at people like Paul and they’ll have their answer.
Doug
How often does any one take a prisoner and allow that prisoner to KEEP their arms or weapons?
That the Geneva Conventions use this language clearly shows that the Treaty tries to make a distinction between those captured, while fighting in a conflict, as opposed to those who are not, at the time of capture, “actively involed”.
Doug, the Geneva Conventions could have been much much smaller, in tolal verbage and length, if that Treaty simply said: “This treaty applies to every human being on the face of the Earth!”
The Geneva Conventions do NOT contain such language.
Therefore, that Treaty does NOT apply to everyone.
And, when that Treaty does apply? There are different levels of protection, depending on the circumstances, and the status of the prisoner.
Not EVERYONE is a POW, under the terms of the Geneva Conventions.
Doug,
You are making personal attacks again.
A clear sign that you lost an arguement.
AGAIN!
I only point out the reality that you are morally corrupt Paul, your posts indicate as much. How can anything good be said from someone who excuses, justifies and supports war crimes? I do not say anything about you that you haven’t already said about yourself. I hope you don’t pass on your religious morals to other people, we already have people with your same religious morals cutting heads off of people in Iraq.
Paul, I already quoted the Geneva Convention. You are a liar. Nothing more can be said because the obvious has been presented. You are willfully ignorant, evil, morally corrupt, and a liar.
Doug, using Econ’s logic, what the FBI and ATF did at Waco is totally and absolutely permissable — since they were illegal enemy combatants, engaging in warfare actions against our Government Officers!! They had no right to get the benefit of habeus corpus, since they were illegal enemy combatnts!!
Doug
I do not support “war crimes” — I am making the very strong case that the United States has NOT committed “war crimes” as a country.
Individuals have done bad things, but that happens in any war.
You are being dishonest. You find something that you do not like, and you call it a “crime” but you can not prove that it is a crime and you can not show where the United States Government ever authorized a “crime” to be committed.
Chas
United States citizens have rights that illegal enemy combatants, fighting our forces on foreign soil, do NOT have.
This is a legal fact.
Your WACO example does not fit.
However, I do appreciate it very much if you wish, now, to admit that the Clinton administration made several horrible mistakes, in Waco.
Doug
Lear to read.
If the Geneva Conventions apply to everyone, then why does it take so much space for those same Geneva Conventions to explain who is, and who is NOT covered by that Treaty?
and I will LEARN to write, lol
But, Econ, according to Bush, even if they ARE citizens, and are deemed to be illegal enemy combatants, they have no habeus corpus rights…
And NO I did not say the FBI and ATF made huge errors at Waco… In fact, as soon as shots were fired at federal officers, the Waco folks got what they deserved… rebuttal fire…. Too bad they didnt just submit to the search warrant, as it was legally served on them… most of Waco would have been avoided…
But thats another issue!!
What the Hell difference does it make who is or is not covered by the Geneva Conventions? This is America and we are supposed to stand for a HIGHER level of morality than the rest of the world.
Terrorists torture? Saddam tortured? The Taliban tortured?
Since when do we LOWER ourselves to that level?
Damn, anyone that DEFENDS torture practiced by American is a disgrace to this country.
We are supposed to be BETTER than that!
God damn.
WSClark,
What the right has shown us is lowering themselves to the enemies level somehow levels the playing field. The problem is it’s not a playing field, but a killing field. And when we lower ourselves to the enemies level, we are giving up everything this country should stand for.
But that’s okay with the cons and their simple-minded torture ain’t nuthin’ doctrine, because they got God on their side. Or at least they think so. Trouble is, they are going to have to pay the piper when judgment day comes around, and God turns a blind eye to both them, and the terrorist they tortured.
Posters so predictable. Heard so many times….. Zzzzzzz…..zzzzzzz….Snore….
Posters so predictable. Heard so many times….. Zzzzzzz…..zzzzzzz….Snore….
Not to worry, Outie. That situation should be remedied in about, oh, 9 months.
Then there is “extraordinary rendition”: US Black Ops delivering men to overseas locations into the hands of foreign interrogators and ((probably) torturers.
Is this something we should teach our children is one of the reasons we are proud to be Americans?
See: http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/ciarendition
And we are signatories to United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment. An agreement ratified by the United States in 1992, and by congressionally enacted policy.
Were crimes ordered by the highest US authorities? Maybe. Probably< I believe. Perhaps they will have their day in court to answer for their actions.
That would be SO great, DaveB… Probably wont happen… but, oh the thought!! Just to make these know it alls face the music of a real trial for their willful ignoring of the Great Laws of our Land!!
opps!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmSAWrsN-E&feature=related
“But, Econ, according to Bush, even if they ARE citizens, and are deemed to be illegal enemy combatants, they have no habeus corpus rights”
True, the guy who wrote the torture memo said it’s perfectly acceptable to crush a child’s testicles in front of his parents in order to get information. He said anything the President deems justifiable is legal. The testicle crushing is the exact example used.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11488.htm
“I will however raise this question.
Is the availability of posting your comments on this type of forum a “replacement” for letting those who actually sit in positions of “power” know our opinions as well?”
RS, I did and at first I got the standard form e-mail loaded with Cliques and slogans “WE will stand down when they stand up”, “With the rapidly changing technology we must be able to have a broad range of responses”, “Our job is to safeguard the American people and no effort is too great in that defense”.
And the ever popular, “WE must stay the course”.
Then they just quit responding, Robertson, Tiahrt and Brownback all at first sent the same e-mails. Then all quit doing even that! I quoted Senator Sessions to them when he used the love of the Constitution and the liberties it guarantees. As a put down on the Senate floor and asked that they stand up for the American people and the Republican party. Nothing!
I do agree with you though, unless the reps hear of the masses displeasure they are so isolated in Washington they do not have a clue.
“What law did President Bush violate?
Come on libs, NAME the laws that were violated by George W. Bush, RIGHT NOW, or shut up!”
ECON101, do you really want to get that started? The G.C. does cover enemy combatants, it is federal law that when ever the United States enter into a treaty it becomes the same as U.S. law. Mc Cain’s anti torture bill is a good example, YES G.W. signed it with pomp and circumstance. Then issued a signing statement that said he nor an of his designates are bounded by this law! In 2006, he suspended Habeas corpus within the U.S. in the military bill issued that year.
Recently, he issued an executive order that stated that in the process of building the boarder fence. That all laws concerning that building could be violated, property rights, environmental and labor laws. Though it came to the public’s attention only in 2004, the domestic spying started BEFORE 9-11? In violation of the fourth and fifth amendments to the Constitution. The list goes on and on and that is only the violations that as of yet have been discovered. I assure you others will be, Bush plays hard and loose with the title of a “War President” which in itself is questionable, since only Congress can declare war and as of yet they have not. Do not confuse the authorization of action as a declaration of war. It would be consider an act of war, but not a declaration of war. Of course you know what that would mean? That the Bush administration actions are build on a house of cards.
BTW you are wrong in the aspect of there being no laws that outlaw the policies of this Government. There are both international and national laws that make the Bush Doctrine illegal. Plus the U.N. charter, see one of the claims to support the invasion of Iraq and give legitimize to it. Was enforcing U.N. mandates, the problem in the beginning? Article 51 of the charter states that those any one member may act to enforce a mandate. THEY have to be sanctioned by the U.N. The invasion at the time had not been sanctioned by the U.N., that was finally forced through in 2004. Which means the invasion was a crime against humanity.
AMERICAN OF THE USA:
If Rage does not have a link to other memos concerning the President. I have this one to start:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf#search=‘gonzalesmemo